--- Log opened Mon Aug 01 00:00:37 2022
00:00 -!- tromp [~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl] has joined #secp256k1
00:27 -!- tromp [~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
00:28 -!- tromp [~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl] has joined #secp256k1
00:48 -!- tromp [~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
01:32 -!- ghost43 [~ghost43@gateway/tor-sasl/ghost43] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
01:33 -!- ghost43 [~ghost43@gateway/tor-sasl/ghost43] has joined #secp256k1
01:54 -!- ghost43 [~ghost43@gateway/tor-sasl/ghost43] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
01:54 -!- ghost43 [~ghost43@gateway/tor-sasl/ghost43] has joined #secp256k1
02:17 -!- tromp [~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl] has joined #secp256k1
02:54 -!- jonatack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
03:02 -!- jonatack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has joined #secp256k1
03:54 -!- ghost43 [~ghost43@gateway/tor-sasl/ghost43] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
03:55 -!- ghost43 [~ghost43@gateway/tor-sasl/ghost43] has joined #secp256k1
04:00 -!- ghost43 [~ghost43@gateway/tor-sasl/ghost43] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
04:00 -!- ghost43 [~ghost43@gateway/tor-sasl/ghost43] has joined #secp256k1
04:41 -!- tromp [~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
04:43 -!- tromp [~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl] has joined #secp256k1
05:25 -!- tromp [~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
06:06 -!- tromp [~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl] has joined #secp256k1
06:19 -!- ghost43 [~ghost43@gateway/tor-sasl/ghost43] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
06:19 -!- ghost43 [~ghost43@gateway/tor-sasl/ghost43] has joined #secp256k1
06:25 -!- halosghost [~halosghos@user/halosghost] has joined #secp256k1
07:05 -!- tromp [~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
07:05 -!- tromp [~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl] has joined #secp256k1
08:00 < real_or_random> meeting :)
08:01 < sipa> Hi.
08:01 < real_or_random> pinging people randomly... sipa nickler elichai2 siv2r[m] 
08:01 < real_or_random> hebasto: 
08:02 < elichai2> Hi :)
08:02 < hebasto> hi
08:02 < michaelfolkson> hi
08:04 < real_or_random> I believe jonas is not here today
08:05 < real_or_random> any topic suggestions? on my list is at least "copyright stuff"
08:05 < hebasto> ^ the same
08:06 < sipa> Good topic.
08:06 < real_or_random> so far we have copyright headers in almost every file (except build system etc)
08:06 < real_or_random> including author name and copyright year
08:08 < real_or_random> (I recommend every new project not to include headers, it saves some hassle. unless you really care about someone stealing your code in decades from now... ^^)  
08:08 < real_or_random> but anyway, we have it now, and it's annoying for contributors
08:08 < sipa> I don't like the "Copyright the secp256k1 contributors" or something similar to the Bitcoin Core approach, because AFAIK it has no legal meaning ("the secp256k1 contributors" is not a legal entity).
08:08 < sipa> IANAL of course.
08:08 < sipa> I do agree that the approach of having author names in every file is cumbersome, and unmaintained.
08:09 < real_or_random> there's always some doubt when to add your name (significant change?!), when to update the year, that's why most people don't care so far
08:09 < sipa> What about having an AUTHORS file where we list people and their rough contributions explicitly?
08:09 -!- tromp [~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
08:10 < real_or_random> I think this is yet another place that needs to updated then... listing people seems okay but listing contributions is difficult
08:11 < real_or_random> also, I don't think "secp256k1 contributors" has no legal meaning. I think I have seen recommendations from lawyers to do this 
08:11 < hebasto> if anyone ever wants to prove authorship, isn't git commit history enough?
08:11 < real_or_random> indeed. if you have the history available.
08:11 < sipa> hebasto: Things can and do get copied without git history.
08:12 < sipa> The problem isn't about our repository, but making it clear that the origin of source code is, when it gets copied into other things.
08:12 < sipa> Maybe we should ask someone who has a better understanding of the legal side.
08:12 < real_or_random> so, first of all, we can't really change the existing copyright notices because it's illegal in some jurisdictions and the MIT license requires the licensee to keep it 
08:13 < real_or_random> (in theory, we could reach out to the authors and ask if they agree etc but it's a PITA)
08:13 < sipa> Well we can change things by agreement of the existing copyright holders.
08:13 < sipa> For libsecp256k1 that may still be viable.
08:14 < real_or_random> right, though then it's again unclear who to ask. just the people listed there or everyone you find in git? so I think that's the approach that just creates work
08:15 < real_or_random> What we can do for free is to add further copyright lines going forward. And this could then be something generic instead of names (and maybe maintaining an AUTHORS file) 
08:15 < sipa> IIRC you don't get copyright just be contributing a one line change somewhere.
08:15 < sipa> But again, IANAL.
08:17 < real_or_random> true (though some may argue it depends on the line ^^) 
08:17 < real_or_random> I'm just saying it raises questions... where do you draw the line? (no pun intended)
08:19 < real_or_random> https://opensource.stackexchange.com/a/6583 this is in line with this suggestions (and it matches my understanding of the requirements)
08:20 < sipa> That seems reasonable.
08:21 < real_or_random> another thing we can do for free is the status quo: don't update the copyright notices. they have little to zero legal value anyway. if someone wants, they can add their names, but if not, noone should care
08:22 < hebasto> could we ask lawyers that work for an organization which is mentioned here https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-January/019741.html ?
08:22 < sipa> It can't hurt to ask, I think?
08:23 < real_or_random> (for those who are interested, here's an article about why they have much no legal value https://opensource.com/article/20/10/copyright-notices-open-source-software ) 
08:23 < sipa> We don't actually have any problem, but it'd be good to have some advice on how to proceed if we're interested in streamlining/cleaning up the current state of things.
08:23 < real_or_random> right, it wouldn't hurt to ask
08:24 < hebasto> while it's still undecided about change existed headers, what to do with new added files?
08:25 < real_or_random> I think we could reasonably approach them with "We consider the following options going forward: (list a few)" and ask for comments if they're appropriate
08:26 < real_or_random> hebasto: pragmatically speaking for the cmake PR:
08:26 < hebasto> yes :)
08:27 < sipa> I think we'll likely want to decide what to do about new files at the same time as deciding what to do about existing files/notices.
08:27 < real_or_random> If you don't insist on the copyright notice, I'd just leave it out for now. We don't have it for the other build system files either
08:27 < sipa> Ah, yes, that seems fine. Adding notices later is always easier than removing them.
08:27 < hebasto> I'm fine to remove them
08:28 < real_or_random> Adding notices later is much easier than changing/removes (unless you care that somewhere will in 80 years argue he obtained an archive of the state without the notice 80 years ago and was misled by this)
08:28 < sipa> You have copyright on your contributions whether a notice exists or not. The question is really about attribution.
08:28 < real_or_random> indeed 
08:30 < real_or_random> I can draft an email if that's fine for others
08:31 < sipa> Fine by me.
08:33 < hebasto> agree
08:33 < real_or_random> oook, noted
08:33 < real_or_random> more topics? 
08:36 < real_or_random> if not, we could try to set review priorities
08:36 < sipa> ok
08:37 < sipa> those related to the initial release seem most urgent, i guess?
08:37 < real_or_random> though I don't have concrete suggestions for now. I think https://github.com/bitcoin-core/secp256k1/pull/1000 is still important but it's currently waiting on tiny updates from roconnor and then should be ready?
08:38 < real_or_random> yes, I still owe you guys an update to the doc PR. once that's done (hopefully tomorrow), this will be the top priority, I believe 
08:38 < sipa> ok
08:38 < real_or_random> (https://github.com/bitcoin-core/secp256k1/pull/1126)
08:40 < real_or_random> anything else?
08:41 < real_or_random> if not, we could already close the meeting, I guess
08:41 < sipa> I guess that's it.
08:42 < real_or_random> :)
09:22 -!- tromp [~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl] has joined #secp256k1
09:46 -!- tromp [~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
10:01 -!- meshcollider [meshcollid@jujube.rpblc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
10:27 -!- tromp [~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl] has joined #secp256k1
10:46 -!- meshcollider [meshcollid@meshcollider.jujube.ircnow.org] has joined #secp256k1
11:40 -!- tromp [~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
11:52 -!- tromp [~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl] has joined #secp256k1
12:05 -!- ghost43 [~ghost43@gateway/tor-sasl/ghost43] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
12:05 -!- ghost43 [~ghost43@gateway/tor-sasl/ghost43] has joined #secp256k1
13:11 -!- tromp [~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
13:16 -!- tromp [~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl] has joined #secp256k1
14:39 -!- rockhouse [~rockhouse@user/rockhouse] has joined #secp256k1
14:42 -!- Apocalyptic_ [~Apocalypt@user/apocalyptic] has joined #secp256k1
14:48 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: rockhouse7, Apocalyptic
15:01 -!- tromp [~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
16:38 -!- halosghost [~halosghos@user/halosghost] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 3.6]
22:01 -!- ghost43 [~ghost43@gateway/tor-sasl/ghost43] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
22:01 -!- ghost43 [~ghost43@gateway/tor-sasl/ghost43] has joined #secp256k1
22:21 -!- ghost43 [~ghost43@gateway/tor-sasl/ghost43] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:21 -!- ghost43 [~ghost43@gateway/tor-sasl/ghost43] has joined #secp256k1
23:57 -!- tromp [~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl] has joined #secp256k1
--- Log closed Tue Aug 02 00:00:38 2022