--- Log opened Mon Jan 30 00:00:29 2023
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07:20 < sipa> Oh, meeting?
07:20 < hebasto> hi
07:20 < real_or_random> yes!
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07:20 < nickler> hey
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07:21 < nickler> I have no topics
07:21 < real_or_random> ok
07:22 < real_or_random> I have a few :P
07:22 < sipa> I'd like some more review on #979 (jacobi synbol), as I have a few follow-up PRs open that build on it.
07:22 < nickler> no topics except maybe summer of bitcoin
07:23 < real_or_random> sipa: yep I'll re-review that one but I think we'll need a second reviewer
07:23 < sipa> (The Bitcoin Core meeting has a recurring "priority for review" topic, if we'd want to do something similar)
07:24 < sipa> real_or_random: Yeah, agree.
07:24 < real_or_random> siv2r started to look at it
07:24 < real_or_random> but I don't know what his plans ware
07:25 < real_or_random> *are
07:25 < sipa> ok
07:25 < sipa> What topics did you have, real_or_random ?
07:26 < real_or_random> I have the cmake PR on my list of topics but I'm not sure if we need to discuss it
07:26 < real_or_random> I feel there's consensus that it should get merged soon
07:26 < sipa> I think it's making great progress, I was going to experiment with it again soon.
07:26 < real_or_random> and it won't need to be perfect
07:27 < real_or_random> should we say the cmake stuff is "experimental"? (does the PR do this?)
07:28 < sipa> Perhaps yes, though we should have a plan to make it non-experimental.
07:28 < sipa> E.g. when there is CI parity.
07:28 < real_or_random> define CI parity
07:28 < hebasto> you mean add "experimental" into README.md?
07:28 < sipa> We test roughly the same amount of configurations through CI for cmake as for autoconf
07:29 < real_or_random> that's a good goal... yes. we should convert some of the configs to cmake to cover both build systems
07:29 < real_or_random> hebasto: that's what I'm talking about
07:29 < hebasto> cool
07:29 < real_or_random> though I'm not sure... I mean it's not experimental in the sense that it's dangerous
07:30 < sipa> It
07:30 < real_or_random> the only thing that could happen is that we'll figure out in 3 months that we'll drop it again. but that's unlikely
07:30 < sipa> It's a good question what kind of things could be broken in a build system.
07:30 < real_or_random> ah okay, and maybe some of the "API" is not yet entirely stable
07:30 < real_or_random> e.g., we may want to rename flags 
07:31 < sipa> Ah, yes... do we want to commit to supporting cmake?
07:31 < real_or_random> what's the status in core?
07:31 < sipa> In Bitcoin Core I think the status is unclear.
07:31 < real_or_random> I can imagine that we'll reconsider if core ever drops its attempt to support cmake 
07:32 < sipa> But the overhead for us to support another build system is of course a lot lower (and getting native msvc support is a nice goal on itself).
07:32 < real_or_random> indeed. and a lot of people asked for it in the past
07:32 < fanquake> Core is a while away. Maybe 26.x. We don't want to maintain multiple build systems at the same time. Some of the current rationale for CMake (it's good for the gui & windows) is kinda weak, especially given it would break all existinging/downstream infra, CIs, containers, scripts etc. 
07:33 < real_or_random> makes sense
07:33 < real_or_random> but yes, as pieter says the overhead for us is smaller given that our builds are rather simply
07:33 < fanquake> I think we are too late into the 25.x cycle to swap, so if we were going to do it, it'd be very early in 26.x, where we'd do a clean swap of autotools -> CMake.
07:34 < real_or_random> *simple
07:35 < real_or_random> anyway, I think the cmake stuff should have some a note that it's new, it may have bugs, and we're not entirely sure that we want to support it in the future. but even a note in the changelog will be enough
07:36 < hebasto> agree
07:37 < sipa> We're still in 0.x.y releases, so from the semver perspective, we don't commit to supporting anything at all (though that's a weak excuse, we still shouldn't include things if we don't at least plan on making an effort to support it going forward).
07:38 < real_or_random> I think it's fair to say that we currently plan on making an effort to support cmake in the future 
07:38 < sipa> Agree.
07:44 < real_or_random> ok... (sorry I got distracted -.-)
07:45 < real_or_random> so I feel it's good enough to add a note to the changelog?
07:46 < hebasto> just changelog, with no amending of README.md?
07:47 < sipa> Well we should mention the cmake system in the README. If we consider it experimental, it can say that too.
07:47 < real_or_random> I think it's enough. And it saves us from the future decision to mark it non-experimental. sipa: What do you think?
07:47 < real_or_random> so yes, the PR currently mentions it in the README. The question is just whether we should call it experimental
07:48 < hebasto> https://github.com/hebasto/secp256k1/blob/220628-cmake/README.md#building-with-cmake
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07:51 < real_or_random> sipa: so you tend to add "experimental"?
07:51 < real_or_random> if yes, then let's do it like that
07:51 < sipa> Let's call it "experimental" if we have a concrete plan (and intention) for how it'd mature to non-experimental.
07:51 < sipa> Otherwise we can also just say it's new and not as well tested.
07:52 < hebasto> could previously mentioned CI parity be a sign of "maturity"?
07:52 < real_or_random>  plan: full docs of all the options (we discussed this a lot already) + CI parity 
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07:55 < sipa> Oh yeah.
07:57 < real_or_random> ok, let's use that criterion then ^^
07:58 < real_or_random> should be noted in the cmake pr
07:59 < real_or_random> more topics? :) I think nickler wants to talk about summer of code
07:59 < hebasto> ^^ do you mean PR decription or docs/changelog?
07:59 < hebasto> * description
07:59 < real_or_random> No I just meant we should add a comment to PR that summarizes the result of this discussion
07:59 < hebasto> ok
08:00 < real_or_random> to make sure we don't need to discuss it again 
08:01 < nickler> happy to talk about SoB next time
08:01 < sipa> Ok!
08:02 < real_or_random> ok!
08:02 < real_or_random> then end of meeting, I think
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08:34 < roconnor> I have proven 
08:34 < roconnor> I have proven secp256k1_ctz64_var_debruijn correct.
08:36  * sipa uploaded an image: (151KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/wuille.net/AUyGFnOnkIYsTbjPxCvfRJoV/79b5n7.jpg >
08:38 < real_or_random> :D
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14:34 < hebasto> in `{bench,ctime_tests}_LDADD = libsecp256k1.la $(COMMON_LIB)` the `$(COMMON_LIB)` looks unneeded. Or did I overlook something?
14:36 < sipa> It's not just unneeded, it's wrong :)
14:37 < sipa> Those binaries are users of the library, they should only be linked to the library, not the objects it was built from.
14:37 < hebasto> exactly!
14:38 < sipa> Thanks for catching that.
14:38 < hebasto> np :)
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--- Log closed Tue Jan 31 00:00:30 2023