--- Log opened Sun Jul 12 08:49:13 2020
08:49 -!- gnusha [~gnusha@unaffiliated/kanzure/bot/gnusha] has joined ##taproot-activation
08:49 [Users ##taproot-activation]
08:49 [@moneyball] [ darosior] [ hebasto] [ jkczyz ] [ nehan  ] [ RubenSomsen] 
08:49 [ ajonas   ] [ gnusha  ] [ hugohn ] [ kanzure] [ nickler] [ TechMiX    ] 
08:49 -!- Irssi: ##taproot-activation: Total of 12 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 11 normal]
08:49 -!- Channel ##taproot-activation created Sun Jul 12 07:53:03 2020
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08:51 < kanzure> logs: http://gnusha.org/taproot-activation/
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08:58 <@moneyball> Hi RubenSomsen! Thanks for accepting the post :) 
08:58 <@moneyball> and hi kanzure thank you
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10:25 < sanket1729> What exactly does "general adoption" of the proposal mean? 
10:25 < sanket1729> have there been any BIPs proposed for deployment?
10:46 -!- prusnak [sid403625@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gcivvuybaramuwjp] has joined ##taproot-activation
10:47 < prusnak> hi all!
11:13 < Hotmetal> So what's it going to take to get taproot in? Feels like forever :)
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12:17 < nickler> Modern Soft Fork Activation https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2020-January/017547.html is a good starting point
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13:29 < sanket1729> nickler: thanks for the link, is the any rationale for time period numbers being considers (1 year BIP 9, 6 month discussion, 2 years BIP-8)
13:31 < sanket1729> I realize that it is important to have time for consensus, but I am curios if there is any other rationale
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13:52 -!- moneyball changed the topic of ##taproot-activation to: discussion about various activation proposals, community outreach, and general next steps to gain adoption
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13:56 <@moneyball> sanket1729: my understanding of what is needed to get to activation is 2 major buckets. 1 is the implementation and testing in Bitcoin Core. 2 is activation method.
13:56 <@moneyball>  for #1, i created this doc describing what is my understanding of what remains to be done - if there are mistakes or omissions anyone is free to comment/correct https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DAMV9csW9k7vDh118_e65-IPJd4AcCImkvsB0b3gbNw/edit
13:59 <@moneyball> for #2, there is the Modern Soft Fork Activation proposal nickler mentions above, and my understanding is that a BIP is being drafted providing more details around it. once that is published, we can get feedback on it. luke-jr also recently posted this and presumably is a champion for this activation method. https://bitcoinhackers.org/@lukedashjr/104403031242614180
14:16 < luke-jr> sanket1729: there is no reason to use BIP 9 ever again
14:16 < luke-jr> the ML post was written prior to BIP 8 finally merging the fixes
14:17 < luke-jr> it's entirely possible to deploy BIP 8 with lockinontimeout=false and later upgrade it to UASF (lockinontimeout=true) later
14:18 < luke-jr> although since the conditions under which the latter is appropriate are identical to the conditions under which the former is, might as well just set it from the start…
14:19 < luke-jr> moneyball: it makes no sense to be making a new BIP at all - if there are changes desirable in BIP 8, we can just update it with those
14:19 < luke-jr> I thought of an improvement the other day, but forgot it before I made note ☹
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18:32 < zmnscpxj__> is this channel logged?
18:48 < ja> zmnscpxj__: yes http://gnusha.org/taproot-activation/
18:49 < zmnscpxj__> thanks
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19:08 < zmnscpxj__> An observation to make is that I suspect we will continue to fight the last war, i.e. protect against mistakes during SegWit activation, and in so doing, make novel mistakes for taproot activation
19:09 < ja> what were the mistakes made during SegWit activation?
19:10 < zmnscpxj__> Footnote [0] here lists some: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2020-January/017553.html
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19:48 < zmnscpxj__> was talking with gmax on private IRC: one thing he mentioned that stuck with me: BIP9 was a reaction to "false signaling" problem in pre-BIP9 softforks
19:49 < zmnscpxj__> Pre-BIP9, after softfork the block version was checked, and if the block had a lower version than the softfork, the block was rejected
19:50 < zmnscpxj__> some miners just modified their existing bitcoind to increase the version, ***without*** actually upgrading to a newer version of bitcoind
19:50 < zmnscpxj__> thus, "fight the last war"
19:51 < zmnscpxj__> but BIP9 is now vulnerable to apathy --- since mining pools have no reason to actually signal BIP9, they can just keep using current software
19:51 < aj> (you always have to fight the last war, otherwise you'd lose the next one to the old tactics)
19:51 < zmnscpxj__> right
19:52 < zmnscpxj__> but new tactics will arise, which is the issue
19:52 < zmnscpxj__> currently activation seems to be a topic nobody would like to touch
19:53 < zmnscpxj__> so I wonder: let us just go with the Modern Software Activation, merge it in, and call it a day?
19:53 < aj> zmnscpxj__: have you seen luke's updated bip8?
19:53 < gmaxwell> s/modified their existing bitcoind/pool server software/ in fact,  one of the architectural flaws in Bitcoin as it exists today, in my opinion is way too much consensus internals is exposed to mining software which is written by people who justifyably do not care (and shouldn't need to care!) about consensus internals. :P
19:53 < zmnscpxj__> aj: no
19:53 < zmnscpxj__> will go check
19:53 < zmnscpxj__> last I read it was during the SegWit wars
19:56 < aj> it changed recently
19:57 < aj> https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/550
19:57 < aj> could plausibly do modern-sf-activation in terms of two bip8 deployments, i think
20:02 < zmnscpxj__> aj: first with lockinontimeout=false, then second with lockinontimeout=true, right? BIP8 recommendations notwithstanding
20:02 < aj> yeah
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20:41 < luke-jr> logged channels should have a mention in the topic
20:42 < luke-jr> zmnscpxj__: BIP 8 was updated recently
20:42 < luke-jr> ah, aj mentioned it already oops
20:44 < luke-jr> gmaxwell: well, the point of libblkmaker was to abstract the details away from the actual mining/pool software
20:44 < aj> libblkmaker?
20:44 < luke-jr> aj: reference GBT client, takes GBT JSON and gives programs what they need only
20:44 < aj> does it get used in practice?
20:44 < luke-jr> AFAIK only BFGMiner ever used it
20:45 < luke-jr> IIRC I realised too late that it needed a Python port
20:45 < zmnscpxj__> so I think the main change in the recent BIP8 update was to add something very much like BIP9 as a subset (lockinontimeout=false)?
20:46 < luke-jr> zmnscpxj__: and the upgrade path to set it true after the fact, yes
20:47 < luke-jr> oh, and mandatory signalling like BIP148 did for BIP9
20:47 < zmnscpxj__> okthx
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20:51 < luke-jr> overall, it's basically BIP9 + fixes + on-demand BIP148 generalised
22:22 < zmnscpxj__> on a related note: when MuSig2? I mean the new two-round MuSig that does not get Wagnered somehow, because zkp is magic. I hear it gets composable MuSig as well?
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23:43 < nickler> zmnscpxj__: plan is within 2 months in the best case (no error in proofs is found). Zkp's are not required. And yeah, it looks like it's composable.
23:43 < zmnscpxj__> thx, that would be a good impetus for Schnorr activation
--- Log closed Mon Jul 13 00:00:17 2020