--- Log opened Tue Jul 28 00:00:32 2020 00:09 -!- rdymac [uid31665@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ancxdjineteceqys] has joined ##taproot-activation 00:46 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined ##taproot-activation 00:55 -!- jonatack [~jon@2a01:e0a:53c:a200:bb54:3be5:c3d0:9ce5] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:18 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:34 < jnewbery> aj: backport is here: https://github.com/jnewbery/bitcoin/tree/2020-07-v20-wtxid-relay . unbroadcast stuff is pretty self-contained and easy to resolve. 01:46 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined ##taproot-activation 02:06 -!- el_yapoo [~dfmb_@unaffiliated/dfmb/x-4009105] has joined ##taproot-activation 02:22 -!- el_yapoo [~dfmb_@unaffiliated/dfmb/x-4009105] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:48 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:48 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined ##taproot-activation 03:37 -!- zmnscpxj__ [~zmnscpxj@gateway/tor-sasl/zmnscpxj] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:54 -!- reallll [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined ##taproot-activation 03:57 -!- reallll is now known as belcher 03:57 -!- belcher_ [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:09 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined ##taproot-activation 04:33 -!- jeremyrubin [~jr@2601:645:c200:f539:45c6:b423:5c6a:9d2f] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:57 -!- provoostenator [~quassel@provoostenator.sprovoost.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:11 < instagibbs> jnewbery, great 07:12 < instagibbs> is there a "wtxid relay cleanup" list that we'll be backporting? 07:12 < instagibbs> I know you mentioned the 1, wondering if others 07:22 < jnewbery> there aren't any others yet. Just sipa's wtxid orphan handling 07:28 -!- jonatack [~jon@37.172.150.191] has joined ##taproot-activation 07:30 -!- joerodgers [joerodgers@gateway/vpn/mullvad/joerodgers/x-62861712] has joined ##taproot-activation 07:39 -!- grubles [~grubles@gateway/tor-sasl/grubles] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:40 -!- grubles [~grubles@gateway/tor-sasl/grubles] has joined ##taproot-activation 07:54 -!- Davterra [~Davterra@104.200.129.213] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:05 -!- Davterra [~Davterra@104.200.129.213] has joined ##taproot-activation 08:11 -!- jonatack [~jon@37.172.150.191] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:15 < instagibbs> ok, was a quite straight forward backport it seems? 08:15 < instagibbs> Only a couple well-motivated line differences at all 08:15 < instagibbs> s/couple/few/ 08:17 < instagibbs> Relaying BlueMatt's complaint about forced signaling, just in case people didn't know: https://twitter.com/TheBlueMatt/status/1288127501118529537 08:22 < instagibbs> I'm presuming Matt hasn't followed any of the subsequent discussion, esp about overlapping bip8 deployments 08:47 -!- jonatack [~jon@2a01:e0a:53c:a200:bb54:3be5:c3d0:9ce5] has joined ##taproot-activation 09:04 < roconnor> I don't get Matt's point, and he isn't here to argue it. :/ 09:05 -!- zmnscpxj__ [~zmnscpxj@gateway/tor-sasl/zmnscpxj] has joined ##taproot-activation 09:13 < roconnor> forced signaling is the opposite of uncertainty about activation state. 09:18 < roconnor> Forced signalling is neutral on whether it encourages UASF-style gambits. 09:21 < roconnor> If activation occurs without forced signaling then we are in the state where we don't know if taproot is being enforced by miners or not. 09:22 < roconnor> and we are perpetually in the state of worring about reorgs. 09:34 < harding> I'm not sure signaling really fixes that, since false signaling is possible, but I don't see how it could make it worse. 09:36 < roconnor> I mean, in a certain sense that is true. But at least miners know that when they false signal they risk building on invalid blocks, which is both bad for themselves and bad for everyone else. 09:37 < roconnor> If taproot activates without any signalling then ignorant miners will simply build on invalid blocks. 09:38 < harding> I think Matt's concern might be that you might not know which blocks are invalid at that point, so you can end up with a temporary (but extended) chainsplit where everyone needs to stop transacting until the situation is clearer. 09:39 < roconnor> This is true, but also true regarding blocks with invalid spends of segwit v1 utxos. 09:39 < roconnor> except in the first case we more or less know when it will happen, but in the later case it could hit at any random point in time. 09:40 < harding> The longer you delay for an uncontroversial soft fork, presumably the more people have upgraded and the less likely the invalid blocks are to be accepted as valid confirmations. 09:41 < roconnor> okay, I will grant you that. I don't find it very comforting though. 09:41 < luke-jr> @harding it's strictly less bad than uncertainty and/or a split over the actual feature later? 09:42 < roconnor> "we don't know when a chainsplit is going to happen but cross our fingers it will happen far enough into the future that people will have upgraded to a softfork they don't know if it is activated or not." 09:42 < harding> luke-jr: what is "it's" in that sentence? 09:42 < luke-jr> re [16:38:07] I think Matt's concern might be that you might not know which blocks are invalid at that point, so you can end up with a temporary (but extended) chainsplit where everyone needs to stop transacting until the situation is clearer. 09:43 < luke-jr> so "it's" is mandatory signalling I guess 09:45 < luke-jr> what I get from Matt's tweets is mostly "I have an irrational hatred of UASF".. as if it isn't in principle a good thing, and already proven to work :/ 09:46 < harding> roconnor: every one of Bitcoin's consensus rules is untested until the moment it's tested economically (and the results of that test don't apply forever). 09:47 < roconnor> harding: okay you win. :) 09:48 < roconnor> I still favour manditory signalling though. 09:48 < harding> Mandatory signaling seems like a useful tool to me also. 09:48 < instagibbs> It's not obviously "moronic" to me at least. 09:49 < harding> I'm really surprised he called it that. ISM used mandatory signaling, so isn't that calling sipa moronic for BIP34? 09:51 < luke-jr> IMO a concept can be moronic without the people supporting it being morons 09:51 < luke-jr> not sure if Matt draws that distinction 09:51 < instagibbs> stupid is as stupid does 09:51 < harding> Oh, BIP34 says it's by Gavin and, now that I think about it, maybe he did propose large parts of that. 09:51 < instagibbs> :) 09:51 < luke-jr> also, he may think we "learned better" since ISM 09:51 < zmnscpxj__> indeed, everyone makes mistakes 09:51 < luke-jr> except the lessons have only shown m.s. to be a good thing IMO 09:51 < roconnor> instagibbs: It is taking constiderable effort on my part to ignore his belittling presentation of his argument. 09:52 < instagibbs> roconnor, I gently asked him on twitter if it was the best way to put things, he thinks so 09:52 < instagibbs> fin 09:52 < luke-jr> roconnor: you mean psychologically or what? 09:52 < instagibbs> anyways, I just wanted to make sure not echo-chamber 09:53 < roconnor> luke-jr: psychologically. 09:53 < harding> If this was an echo chamber, it'd be a failed one given our lack of agreement after thousands of words typed. :-) 09:53 < instagibbs> I think on the whole, forced signaling is a net positive because it's using heaviest chain to signal to all users at same time :shrug: 09:54 < luke-jr> harding: lol 09:54 < instagibbs> harding, well to the One True Problem which is people wearing hats 09:54 < luke-jr> even if we were to end up with false signalling, I'm not sure that's actually even a bad thing 09:54 < instagibbs> that's what I'm saying, even false signaling has sync benefits? 09:55 < instagibbs> esp with the overlapping bip8 idea 09:55 -!- jeremyrubin [~jr@2601:645:c200:f539:149c:f818:6125:256e] has joined ##taproot-activation 10:22 -!- k1llingmesmalls [22d15895@ec2-34-209-88-149.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined ##taproot-activation 10:23 -!- k1llingmesmalls [22d15895@ec2-34-209-88-149.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com] has left ##taproot-activation [] 11:18 -!- zmnscpxj__ [~zmnscpxj@gateway/tor-sasl/zmnscpxj] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:19 -!- zmnscpxj__ [~zmnscpxj@gateway/tor-sasl/zmnscpxj] has joined ##taproot-activation 11:42 -!- zmnscpxj__ [~zmnscpxj@gateway/tor-sasl/zmnscpxj] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:42 -!- zmnscpxj_ [~zmnscpxj@gateway/tor-sasl/zmnscpxj] has joined ##taproot-activation 11:57 -!- zmnscpxj_ [~zmnscpxj@gateway/tor-sasl/zmnscpxj] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:58 -!- zmnscpxj_ [~zmnscpxj@gateway/tor-sasl/zmnscpxj] has joined ##taproot-activation 11:59 -!- zmnscpxj_ [~zmnscpxj@gateway/tor-sasl/zmnscpxj] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:18 -!- joerodgers [joerodgers@gateway/vpn/mullvad/joerodgers/x-62861712] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:10 -!- roconnor [~roconnor@host-184-164-2-204.dyn.295.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:29 -!- roconnor [~roconnor@host-45-58-209-205.dyn.295.ca] has joined ##taproot-activation 15:42 -!- slivera [~slivera@103.231.88.27] has joined ##taproot-activation 17:07 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:58 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: RubenSomsen 17:58 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: hebasto, @moneyball, midnight, windsok, fanquake 18:00 -!- krvopije_1950 [~toni@185.106.109.144] has joined ##taproot-activation 18:01 -!- krvopije_1950 [~toni@185.106.109.144] has quit [Client Quit] 18:01 -!- Netsplit over, joins: RubenSomsen, fanquake, windsok, midnight, hebasto, @moneyball 18:27 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined ##taproot-activation 18:57 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:59 -!- midnight [~midnight@unaffiliated/midnightmagic] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:01 -!- midnight [~midnight@unaffiliated/midnightmagic] has joined ##taproot-activation 20:24 -!- zmnscpxj_ [~zmnscpxj@gateway/tor-sasl/zmnscpxj] has joined ##taproot-activation 20:54 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined ##taproot-activation 20:57 -!- grubles [~grubles@gateway/tor-sasl/grubles] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:28 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:57 -!- grubles [~grubles@gateway/tor-sasl/grubles] has joined ##taproot-activation 22:05 -!- grubles [~grubles@gateway/tor-sasl/grubles] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:09 -!- grubles [~grubles@gateway/tor-sasl/grubles] has joined ##taproot-activation 23:25 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined ##taproot-activation 23:52 -!- midnight [~midnight@unaffiliated/midnightmagic] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:58 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] --- Log closed Wed Jul 29 00:00:33 2020