--- Log opened Mon Feb 08 00:00:23 2021
01:57 < michaelfolkson> Thanks for this robert_spigler, that's helpful
02:09 < michaelfolkson> I guess the other question I should be asking people with a view is would you be happy to go along with the alternative choice (LOT=false) if that's where consensus landed?
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02:46 < devrandom> I prefer LOT=true (especially if miners are approached and a supermajority don't have a strong objection), but I think LOT=false is acceptable for this particular activation. we shouldn't take more than a couple of weeks to decide
02:46 < michaelfolkson> Awesome, thank you devrandom
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03:42 < michaelfolkson> I'm trying to catch up with the PR discussion
03:42 < michaelfolkson> >  I suppose startdate 2021-07-04 (target 22.0 of 2021-08-01 minus 2 weeks LOCKED_IN minus 2 weeks signal) isn't *too* bad
03:43 < michaelfolkson> That would be the beginning of the STARTED phase in BIP 8 right?
03:47 < michaelfolkson> ./me struggles to get projected timeline in my head
03:56 < michaelfolkson> timeoutheight is going to be a year (from what has been discussed thus far)
04:00 < michaelfolkson> What does "minus 2 weeks LOCKED_IN minus 2 weeks signal" mean?
04:00 < michaelfolkson> We are in the MUST_SIGNAL phase for two weeks?
04:01 < michaelfolkson> (assuming LOT is set to true obviously)
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04:02 < michaelfolkson> Oh I get it. You mean 2 weeks in the MUST_SIGNAL phase and then 2 weeks in the LOCKED_IN phase
04:10 < michaelfolkson> 1 year - 2 weeks - 2 weeks for timeoutheight
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04:32 < michaelfolkson> If we weren't restricted by 0.20 EOL and had complete freedom what would we ideally aim for for startdate? Two or three months from today? Early April or May
04:32 < michaelfolkson> Early July seems fine
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10:40 < luke-jr> devrandom: miners' opinion should not be considered.. especially for LOT O.o
10:40 < luke-jr> after all, if they do what they're obliged to and claim they will, LOT doesn't matter
10:41 < luke-jr> [11:42:50] <michaelfolkson> >  I suppose startdate 2021-07-04 (target 22.0 of 2021-08-01 minus 2 weeks LOCKED_IN minus 2 weeks signal) isn't *too* bad [11:43:18] <michaelfolkson> That would be the beginning of the STARTED phase in BIP 8 right? <-- yes
10:42 < luke-jr> [12:00:03] <michaelfolkson> What does "minus 2 weeks LOCKED_IN minus 2 weeks signal" mean? <-- if the goal is to drop 0.20 support at the same time as Taproot becomes active, July 4th is the earliest miners can begin signalling
10:42 < luke-jr> MUST_SIGNAL/LOT isn't relevant to that
10:43 < luke-jr> I wonder if anyone would say "if Core releases LOT=true, I will run mine with LOT=false"
10:44 < luke-jr> (the opposite is pretty clearly going to happen)
10:48 < michaelfolkson> Personally I would want to consider miners' opinions. Though I would be interested in their rationale for LOT=false if that is indeed the case
10:50 < michaelfolkson> I haven't heard any miner opposition for Taproot and giving them up to 1 year to activate seems reasonable to me. I'd like to hear why they want the option not to activate within a year if that is indeed what they want
10:51 < michaelfolkson> I'd guess they don't want or need that option but I'm waiting on data
11:08 < harding> luke-jr: if Core releases with LOT=true, I plan to stay on 0.21.0 for a while (maybe even past the earliest possible activation date).  If the project does something I consider unexpected, I think it'd be a good idea to take some time to reconsider both my views on that decision and any cached thinking I have about the project in general.
11:14 < michaelfolkson> Thanks for this harding. Can you elaborate on why you'd consider setting LOT=true to be unexpected?
11:14 < michaelfolkson> Does F1 - F6 in this post cover it? https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-February/018380.html
11:15 < harding> michaelfolkson: I'm actually writing a reply to the mailing list post right now with one or two additional "F" points.  :-)
11:15 < michaelfolkson> Cool, thanks :)
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12:09 < aj> harding: hopefully you won't feel F'ed over by the end of the thread? :)
12:09 < harding> aj: I fear that will be my F8.
12:10 < robert_spigler> harding: Looking forward to reading it
12:17 < michaelfolkson> F8 = fate for those who are as slow as me....
12:18 < harding> :-)
12:20 < luke-jr> XD
12:21 < robert_spigler> lol
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13:37 < aj> luke-jr: i think i'm finally making some progress on a functional test for bip8
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18:04 < robert_spigler> Besides luke-jr 's twitter poll that was posted here, another poll I saw was Alex Bosworth's (don't know his nick here)
18:04 < robert_spigler> https://twitter.com/LukeDashjr/status/1356705119983857665
18:05 < robert_spigler> https://twitter.com/alexbosworth/status/1356796990722514945
18:05 < robert_spigler> I know it's Twitter, but major support for LOT=true on both
18:23 < luke-jr> maybe instead of LOT true/false, what we should be asking LOT=false advocates is _what timeframe_ they would be comfortable with LOT=true?
18:24 < luke-jr> Is 2 years enough? 5?
18:25 < luke-jr> I don't recall anyone (aside from eventual bcashers) being opposed to UASFs *on principle*..
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18:27 <@aj> http://www.erisian.com.au/wordpress/2020/10/26/activating-soft-forks-in-bitcoin -- "How long away should the flag day be?"  -- 12-18 months was widely acceptable; there was an outlier that said at least 3 years
18:28 < luke-jr> aj: interesting
18:29 < luke-jr> I'd bet who 3+ years is, but I don't want to compromise the privacy (if there is any) XD
18:33 <@aj> the answers aren't anonymous to editors of the form (so me and whoever i shared it with?), but i've been trying to not tie names to any of the answers so it's easy for people to change their minds if they happen to
18:49 < robert_spigler> luke-jr: I think that's a great question
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20:16 < aj> yay, functional tests caught a bug!
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20:19 < luke-jr> aj: :o
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20:20 < aj> luke-jr: not a very interesting bug :)
20:23 < luke-jr> is it an off by one in height?
20:23 < luke-jr> that's the one part I've been uncertain of this whole time
20:23 < luke-jr> for some reason it's hard to think through
20:24 < aj> luke-jr: nah, just https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19573#discussion_r572579383
20:25 < aj> luke-jr: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19438/ might make height-off-by-oneness easier to understand fwiw
21:05 < luke-jr> aha, makes sense
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--- Log closed Tue Feb 09 00:00:24 2021