--- Log opened Fri Apr 23 00:00:34 2021
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01:09 < jonatack> "stuck in an epistemological shard"...outside of this discussion, i like that, twitter bio material, thanks Emcy
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04:47 <@michaelfolkson> Emcy: I can't comment on the size of the epistemological shard (I honestly don't know, there were a lot of people interested in a BIP 8 (LOT=true) release a couple of months back though) but I suspect that shard will grow considerably assuming Speedy Trial fails to activate
04:48 <@michaelfolkson> Hopefully Speedy Trial will activate and we will never find out how big the epistemological shard would have grown to
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05:19 < queip> I wonder what Emcy ment by that in this case. That in SegWit case we knew the rational reason of miners to oppose it (to make it better for patented by them AsicBoost)?
05:20 < queip> if miners would not activate ST, I would guess it is just to screw Bitcoin's improvement...  but yeah.. well, they are really cutting own branch in such case, far more than with segwit
05:20 < queip> unless it would be to impede BTC growth to further Bcash they still have a stack of
05:36 <@michaelfolkson> queip: It wasn't as simple as that. AsicBoost was definitely a factor but then SegWit2x, an additional block size increase was also a factor. It is hard to untangle what was motivating all actors with SegWit and I suspect we'll never know fully
05:37 <@michaelfolkson> It is certainly a stressful process to get consensus changes into Bitcoin and in retrospect it probably should be
05:39 <@michaelfolkson> Similarly here it is hard to untangle what is motivating all actors with Taproot activation. Speculative future soft forks and how they are activated certainly appears to be a motivating factor for some. Remain skeptical of everyone (including me)
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07:59 < faketoshi> Worth mentioning - miners also didn't want segwit because it was a blocksize increase?
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08:30 < ghost43> lol. most miners wanted an even bigger block size increase
08:34 < AaronvanW> Or, one miner with a lot of hash power and influence wanted it really badly.
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09:19 < faketoshi> nope, that was all a lie
09:19 < faketoshi> miners obviously don't want bigger blocks for real, they wanted to stall with a pretend alternative scaling solution and also maintain asicboost
09:20 < faketoshi> u guys really think miners wanted bigger blocks?
09:20 < faketoshi> bcash isn't evidence of this, because it's different if the miner has larger blocks but on a network he controls completely
09:21 < AaronvanW> faketoshi: you say this as if you know it for a fact, but afaik we can only speculate. (if you have evidence I'm happy to see it though.)
09:21 < faketoshi> i figure it's the reason for the stalling
09:21 < AaronvanW> it's possible.
09:21 < faketoshi> and just basic incentives - look how much money miners currently make from fees
09:21 < faketoshi> they'd be screwed if blocks were 20MB
09:22 < AaronvanW> it's also possible that both things are true.
09:22 < faketoshi> then ofc bigger pools benefit from bigger blocks so it's a big mix of incentives
09:23 < faketoshi> really tho, fee market is how miners get paid. that surely must be the most important factor when considering their incentives?
09:23 < faketoshi> or "blockspace" market
09:24 < AaronvanW> faketoshi: lots of companies grow by operating at a loss for a long time before they start charging in some way or another. that kind of mindset could also have informed miner(s) preferences.
09:24 < AaronvanW> but again, I'm just speculating.
10:23 < jnewbery> "fee market is how miners get paid" <- not true now, even less true 4 years ago
10:34 < faketoshi> ok, it's *increasingly* how miners get paid
11:40 < Emcy> 4 years ago fees peaked higher than subsidy iirc
11:40 < Emcy> this time they run at a good 25-30%
11:41 < faketoshi> that was jihan paying fees back to himself let's be honest
11:41 < Emcy> to be fair the fee excursion in 2017 was probably an attack
11:41 < faketoshi> or getting a third of them back at least
11:41 < faketoshi> there's no way it wasn't an attack
11:41 < Emcy> well i dont think thats the case now. miners really are making 100k> per block in fees
11:41 < copumpkin> faketoshi: there have been attempts to model how it would work, but it's an elasticity argument and folks don't really know what would happen. I think the strongest argument you can make is that it's a _risk_ for miners, which they might want to avoid because folks are averse to change
11:42 < faketoshi> wrt to increasing block size?
11:43 < Emcy> when you say 'miners wanted to maintain asicboost' thats not true
11:43 < copumpkin> yeah, nobody's proposing 1GB blocks so there would still be competition to get into them. So the difficulty is predicting if the fee decrease would be offset by the increased number of transactions you could fit
11:43 < Emcy> it wasnt 'miners', it was jihan wu. one man.
11:44 < Emcy> and now he is completely diminished from his follies with bcash, so dont let him live in your head any more
11:44 < queip> one could say, Jihan was the chink in armor of PoW security
11:44 < queip> badjokeeel.jpg
11:45 < copumpkin> come on
11:46 < Emcy> queip is polish..
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--- Log closed Sat Apr 24 00:00:35 2021