--- Log opened Tue Apr 27 00:00:38 2021
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08:58 < queip> luke-jr: I have an request. when in talks with community, and with developers, could you take into account that calling anyone as a liar without presenting evidence, will just not work out for most of cases
08:59 < queip> please consider that most people can't work with that, and instead point out in detail what you have on mind
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09:00 < queip> we are just humans, communication is hard, doubly so over internet :)
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09:01 < queip> even if cases where you're right, that alone seems to not work, explanation is needed. Btw I think most of such things are some some of misunderstanding and being exact helps to clear it up
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10:46 < luke-jr> queip: eh, he made a completely false claim with no details; there wasn't really anything more to say
10:47 < luke-jr> but yes, I get your point too
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11:09 < robert_spigler> jeremyrubin: "I had a go at trying to figure out what the "ideal process" might look like" thanks for the link
11:09 < robert_spigler> I'm behind on the ML posts
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14:07 <@michaelfolkson2> Transcript of AaronvanW and provoostenator latest podcast on Taproot activation https://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/bitcoin-magazine/2021-04-23-taproot-activation-update/
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14:09 <@michaelfolkson> Also video of Bitcoin Magazine Clubhouse discussion earlier on the Taproot timeline https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRiupnKlTjc
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14:39 < robert_spigler> michaelfolkson: thanks
15:06 < Emcy> michaelfolkson is that transcript supposed to be incomplete
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15:59 < luke-jr> are we back to people thinking it's a vote already? -.-
15:59 < luke-jr> michaelfolkson: typo "Botha"
16:07 < luke-jr> looks like Sjors is mostly talking about unlikely cases that don't make sense incentive-wise? XD
16:11 < luke-jr> "If you look at the person who wrote the original pull request that was purely height based, I think that was Andrew Chow, he closed his own pull request in favor of the mixed solution that we have now. If the person writing the code removes it himself I think that’s pretty clear."
16:11 < bcman> are you resigning as BIP editor luke-jr?
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16:11 < luke-jr> provoostenator_: I wrote it, actually.
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16:14 < faketoshi> I would like to say that I think the calls I have seen for you to do this are totally unwarranted.
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16:34 < belcher> i just listened to the bitcoinmagazine clubhouse discussion, one point that came up was that miners have an incentive to block taproot because it lowers miner fees... this is really not true and i need to nip it in the bud because in reality the opposite is true
16:34 < belcher> taproot and other blockspace-saving tech makes the price of block space go _up_ not down, because users can use block space more efficiently and therefore are able to pay more for each vbyte, theres a great blog post about this from 2017 where it also came up in discussion https://medium.com/@bergealex4/the-lightning-paradox-f15ce0e8e374
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16:40 < faketoshi> Good point
16:40 < faketoshi> It was me who made that point so I'm happy to concede it
16:41 < belcher> :thumbsup:
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16:45 < luke-jr> I'm not sure that's actually true. Sure, WUs are now more useful, but also there is less demand on them.
16:46 < luke-jr> but if miners don't like it, they can still activate Taproot and just make smaller blocks as it gets adopted
16:46 < belcher> the economic principle behind this is called jevon's paradox so thats worth looking up, it happens a lot
16:49 < belcher> its more about WUs being used more efficiently rather than being more useful, so say a user wants to send a transaction and are happy to pay 1mbtc for it, without taproot (or lightning) they'd have to spend say 250 vbytes but with it they spend less vbytes... so if they are using taproot/LN the fee rate goes up because vbytes used goes down
16:58 < mol> belcher, re: LN will make miners earn less.. Rusty also has a short blog here: https://medium.com/blockstream/miners-and-bitcoin-lightning-a133cd550310
16:59 < belcher> thanks i didnt know about that blog post
16:59 < belcher> i probably read it in 2017
17:01 < mol> so by the same token, if bitcoin can have better privacy, i think we'll see more txs?
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17:02 < faketoshi> I made that point. I don't want to die on that hill. Frankly I don't have a strong opinion. But it's besides the greater point which was - miners might not like Taproot for some reason
17:02 < faketoshi> So asking them if they do before you hand the keys over to them might not give reliable answers.
17:04 <@michaelfolkson> Emcy: What do you mean incomplete?
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17:05 <@michaelfolkson> luke-jr: Both Aaron and Sjors generally refer to signaling readiness in prior podcasts. Just a slip here or a simplification.
17:05 <@michaelfolkson> luke-jr: Re referring to "votes"
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17:13 < Emcy> michaelfolkson doesnt matter i got confused
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--- Log closed Wed Apr 28 00:00:39 2021