--- Log opened Tue Mar 16 00:00:57 2021 05:51 -!- gnusha [~gnusha@unaffiliated/kanzure/bot/gnusha] has joined ##taproot-bip-review 05:51 -!- Topic for ##taproot-bip-review: Discussion about the Taproot BIP Reviews. More information: https://github.com/ajtowns/taproot-review; logs: http://www.erisian.com.au/taproot-bip-review/ ; meeting logs: http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/taproot-bip-review/2019. Discussion of activation methods belongs in ##taproot-activation 05:51 -!- Topic set by harding [quassel@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fe7b:78d1] [Mon Jul 13 09:53:42 2020] 05:51 [Users ##taproot-bip-review] 05:51 [ _0x0ff ] [ luke-jr ] 05:51 [ achow101 ] [ maaku ] 05:51 [ ajonas ] [ meshcollider ] 05:51 [ amiti ] [ michaelfolkson ] 05:51 [ arik__ ] [ midnight ] 05:51 [ belcher ] [ mol ] 05:51 [ bsm117532 ] [ moneyball ] 05:51 [ criley ] [ nickler ] 05:51 [ CubicEarth ] [ pipilainen ] 05:51 [ DeanWeen ] [ provoostenator_] 05:51 [ digi_james ] [ queip ] 05:51 [ dr-orlovsky ] [ real_or_random ] 05:51 [ drolmer ] [ robert_spigler ] 05:51 [ elichai2 ] [ robot-dreams ] 05:51 [ fanquake ] [ RubenSomsen ] 05:51 [ felixweis ] [ RusAlex_ ] 05:51 [ fjahr ] [ sanket1729 ] 05:51 [ gambpang ] [ sanketcell_ ] 05:51 [ ghost43_ ] [ schmidty ] 05:51 [ gnusha ] [ shesek` ] 05:51 [ Guest30742 ] [ so ] 05:51 [ harding ] [ stortz ] 05:51 [ Jackielove4u] [ takinbo ] 05:51 [ jakesyl ] [ willcl_ark ] 05:51 [ lightningbot] [ windsok ] 05:51 -!- Irssi: ##taproot-bip-review: Total of 50 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 50 normal] 05:51 -!- Channel ##taproot-bip-review created Wed Oct 23 10:22:07 2019 05:53 -!- Irssi: Join to ##taproot-bip-review was synced in 154 secs 06:28 -!- jonatack_ [~jon@37.165.122.66] has joined ##taproot-bip-review 07:12 -!- jonatack_ [~jon@37.165.122.66] has quit [Quit: jonatack_] 07:12 -!- jonatack [~jon@37.165.122.66] has joined ##taproot-bip-review 07:24 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:29 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined ##taproot-bip-review 08:01 -!- DeanGuss [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has joined ##taproot-bip-review 08:01 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:02 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined ##taproot-bip-review 08:03 -!- DeanWeen [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 09:12 -!- Teleportando [8eb30758@d142-179-7-88.bchsia.telus.net] has joined ##taproot-bip-review 09:20 < michaelfolkson> robert_spigler: I think both of our emails have showed up on the mailing list now 09:38 -!- jeremyrubin [~jr@024-176-247-182.res.spectrum.com] has joined ##taproot-bip-review 10:20 -!- rgrant [~rgrant@unaffiliated/rgrant] has joined ##taproot-bip-review 10:49 -!- stortz [c8b9cbcf@200.185.203.207] has quit [Quit: Connection closed] 11:04 -!- lucasmoten [~lucasmote@136.144.35.169] has joined ##taproot-bip-review 11:59 -!- r251d [~r251d@50.121.84.2] has joined ##taproot-bip-review 12:08 -!- shesek` is now known as shesek 12:08 -!- shesek [~shesek@164.90.217.137] has quit [Changing host] 12:08 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has joined ##taproot-bip-review 12:21 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:23 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined ##taproot-bip-review 13:06 -!- rgrant [~rgrant@unaffiliated/rgrant] has left ##taproot-bip-review [] 13:10 -!- r251d [~r251d@50.121.84.2] has quit [Quit: r251d] 13:25 -!- lucasmoten_ [~lucasmote@136.144.35.169] has joined ##taproot-bip-review 13:28 -!- lucasmoten [~lucasmote@136.144.35.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:59 < real_or_random> jeremyrubin: I think ideas in that direction do exist, and they may or may not be clever. the point is that doing this is not visible now, so we don't need to introduce this with taproot 14:01 < real_or_random> it's certainly a discussion we could have but it seems independent of the proposed Taproot fork (because it's not relevant for current consensus) 14:01 < real_or_random> maybe I should post a longer explanation of this to the ML 14:47 < midnight> I'm referring to the absurdity of objecting to taproot as a result of a future attack which makes us all totally screwed anyway without a concrete QC-ready overall plan. 14:47 < luke-jr> midnight: it wouldn't make us all screwed anyway, pre-Taproot 14:52 -!- jonatack_ [~jon@37.171.42.2] has joined ##taproot-bip-review 14:56 -!- jonatack [~jon@37.165.122.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:12 < michaelfolkson> Internet banking would be screwed. A desperate run from fiat to Bitcoin to be protected by that impregnable hash 15:14 < michaelfolkson> And in that attempt to move from fiat to Bitcoin you'd probably lose the Bitcoin you were trying to swap into as pubkeys are leaked in the process of spending from the previous address 15:15 < luke-jr> michaelfolkson: no, you wouldn't be able to buy bitcoins in this situation 15:15 < michaelfolkson> So everyone without Bitcoin would lose all their money in their internet banking 15:15 < luke-jr> and banks would probably just undo everything online 15:16 < luke-jr> actually, online banking could freeze for the same safety level 15:16 < luke-jr> QC won't get you passwords after all 15:17 < michaelfolkson> No internet banking until quantum crypto rolled out. I think we go back to barter and stones 15:18 < michaelfolkson> HODLing my stash of stones 15:20 < luke-jr> yep, same as Bitcoin today 15:20 < maaku> michaelfolkson: by 2025 there will be a NIST standard for post-quantum symmetric key agreement, which will be a drop-in replacement for TLS, SSH, etc. 15:22 < maaku> the earliest reasonable date for a QC that can break 2048-bit RSA or secp256k1 is 2030-ish, so with a proactive Y2K-level of effort it is likely that we can avoid the whole world collapsing 15:23 < luke-jr> maaku: that's reassuring. maybe worth pointing out more often. 15:23 < michaelfolkson> 2025 an estimate obviously. You'd expect that to be pushed back (as everything does) 15:23 < maaku> but Bitcoin needs to take its own steps to transition to post-quantum cryptography, and has challenges which make it more difficult than TLS or SSH 15:24 < maaku> michaelfolkson: I'm talking about the PQC competition, which is operating on a fixed timeline : https://csrc.nist.gov/projects/post-quantum-cryptography 15:24 < maaku> there are already multiple acceptable finalists 15:24 < michaelfolkson> Interesting... 15:24 < luke-jr> why do we need to wait for a winner to be chosen? 15:25 < luke-jr> and why does NIST refuse to show anything unless I let them run JS code 15:25 < luke-jr> not sure I want to do that 15:25 * michaelfolkson closes browser tab quickly 15:25 < michaelfolkson> Haha 15:25 < maaku> so I don't think it is alarmist or out of line to be insisting that we also be proactive towards fixing Bitcoin on a similar timeline 15:27 < maaku> luke-jr: we don't need to wait for NIST. it's just what with respect to TLS, SSH, etc. it's easier when there is an obvious Shelling point 15:27 < michaelfolkson> Are you a cryptographer maaku? Amateur or professional? I don't know if any of the small number of cryptographers in Bitcoin have looked into quantum crypto in great depth 15:28 < maaku> however for Bitcoin specifically, it is unlikely that the chosen standard will be suitable for our use. IIRC there's only one finalist that operates as a digital signature (and it is not as good for us as one of the non-finalists which has a better zkp system) 15:30 < maaku> michaelfolkson: my credentials are only at the undergratuate level--my degree is in physics with a QC advisor 15:30 < michaelfolkson> maaku: Fair enough 15:31 < maaku> but if you took credentials as a filter you'd have to ignore half of the developers who write cryptographic code for Bitcoin 15:31 < michaelfolkson> Oh sure, please don't take that as a criticism. Just wondered if this was going to be a research topic for you or something you were going to focus on 15:33 < luke-jr> michaelfolkson: maaku is an altcoin developer; just friendly and cooperative with Bitcoin 15:33 < maaku> It's just something I learned a bit about my senior year in college, then kept an eye on ever since. 15:33 < luke-jr> (his altcoin is also not competing against Bitcoin, to be clear) 15:33 < maaku> I have an interest in QC for solving ab-initio quantum simulations of atoic systems 15:35 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: queip 15:37 -!- queip [~queip@unaffiliated/rezurus] has joined ##taproot-bip-review 15:44 -!- stortz [c8b9cbcf@200.185.203.207] has joined ##taproot-bip-review 15:53 < jeremyrubin> real_or_random: yep that can be added after, that was my point (e.g., at the key derivation level) 15:55 < maaku> I would be more acquiescent to taproot activating if I thought there was a concerted effort to actually transition to post-quantum crypto 15:55 < maaku> But instead there just seems to be hand waving over the issue and kicking the can down the road 15:57 < maaku> this medium post does a decent writeup of why there needs to be many-years-long transition effort rather than waiting to act when QC is finally near : https://medium.com/the-capital/going-quantum-resistant-in-blockchain-a-plausible-timeframe-afc174a0da5c 15:58 < jeremyrubin> maaku: does ability to slip a commitment into the key and fork in a new spending path not work for you? 15:58 < jeremyrubin> do you want the code ready & written? 15:59 < maaku> jeremyrubin: yes someone should actually be writing code, and operating a testnet, etc. 15:59 < maaku> you can't even assess whether the idea will work until there is a concrete proposal with code. could be issues we're not seeing 16:00 < jeremyrubin> sounds like you just volunteered? 16:04 < maaku> not my project... 16:04 < maaku> which is why I also haven't NACK'd anything 16:05 < maaku> but it is a conversation we all benefit from participating in 16:07 < luke-jr> FYI there were some errors in my GDocs link earlier; I have corrected them 19:56 -!- stortz [c8b9cbcf@200.185.203.207] has quit [Quit: Connection closed] 21:19 -!- belcher_ [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined ##taproot-bip-review 21:22 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:48 -!- shesek` [~shesek@164.90.217.137] has joined ##taproot-bip-review 21:52 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:54 -!- meshcollider [meshcollid@gateway/shell/ircnow/x-irngybgfmgpzypua] has quit [Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in] 22:00 -!- jonatack_ [~jon@37.171.42.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:09 -!- meshcollider [meshcollid@gateway/shell/ircnow/x-qcfpgmsncdtvtiio] has joined ##taproot-bip-review --- Log closed Wed Mar 17 00:00:58 2021