--- Day changed Sat May 31 2008
00:15 < kanzure> Okay, done with high school. Need to update my site now, or something.
00:26 < Vedestin> how'd you go?
00:32 < kanzure> Nothing to report.
00:32 < Vedestin> good then
00:35 < fenn> another fine product of hays county school corporation
00:39 < kanzure> ugh
00:43 < Vedestin> oh, it's that good is it/
00:52 -!- fenn [n=pz@adsl-75-60-175-117.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
00:52 -!- Topic for #hplusroadmap: http://heybryan.org/ http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/ http://heybryan.org/exp.html | krebs is now servicing the channel. try !help
00:52 -!- Topic set by kanzure [] [Tue Apr 29 18:54:31 2008]
00:52 [Users #hplusroadmap]
00:52 [ fenn] [ kanzure] [ nsh] [ Splicer] [ Vedestin] [ ybit] 
00:52 -!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 6 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 6 normal]
00:52 -!- [freenode-info] please register your nickname...don't forget to auto-identify! http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
00:52 -!- Channel #hplusroadmap created Sat Mar 22 15:44:12 2008
00:52 < kanzure> wb
00:52 -!- Irssi: Join to #hplusroadmap was synced in 30 secs
00:53 < fenn> power surge confused the DSLAM i guess
00:53 < kanzure> fenn: Vedestin just linked over to a ted talk about 'open source economics'
00:53 < fenn> link link
00:53 < kanzure> http://www.ted.com/talks/view/id/247
01:14 < kanzure> "So when you open up the paper and you see a new fight about intellectual property, it's not because of the technical issue, it's about human sharing." <-- Stallman tried to make this point. It didn't work out.
01:19 < kanzure> I wonder if you can make people understand that point.
01:19 < kanzure> They hold on pretty tightly to money.
01:19 -!- nsh [n=nsh@87-94-146-186.tampere.customers.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
01:20 -!- nsh [n=nsh@87-94-146-186.tampere.customers.dnainternet.fi] has joined #hplusroadmap
01:20 < kanzure> http://benkler.org/
01:29 < fenn> i like the 'difficult sentences' wiki page contributed by readers of his book
01:30 < kanzure> heh
01:31 < kanzure> interesting person
01:31 < kanzure> surprised I haven't seen him before
01:33 < fenn> "the leading intellectual" heh
01:33 < fenn> yo, leading intellectual, tell us what to do so we can scoff at it
01:33 < kanzure> ye
01:33 < kanzure> I'd like to be a leading intellectual, sounds fun
01:33 < kanzure> where do I apply?
01:33 < fenn> harvard
01:33 < kanzure> Maybe I should just assert it.
01:33 < kanzure> From now on, I am the leading intellectual in everything.
01:33 < kanzure> oh
01:35 < kanzure> so, in ##neuroscience, bohemian was telling me that I should be sending 'letters of interest' to profs that are doing work vaguely related to mine, even if I don't want to physically work at their labs
01:35 < kanzure> I don't know how these letters of interest work, is this common? from your perspective
01:36 < fenn> i think "intellectual" is something like "whipping boy" or "scapegoat", its someone you're supposed to ignore
01:36 < fenn> i dont know anything about getting around in academia
01:36 < kanzure> heh, that's right
01:37 < kanzure> the spam filters
01:37  * fenn grumbles
01:45 < Vedestin> academics drink beer
01:45 < Vedestin> and shit
01:45 < Vedestin> and breathe
01:45 < kanzure> http://www.bentham.org/open/toimej/index.htm Open access manufacturing engineering journal?
01:46 < kanzure> 'at attractive open access fees!' wtf
01:47 < kanzure> http://iciil.blogspot.com/2007/05/open-industrial-and-manufacturing.html
01:47 < kanzure> http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Mechanical-Engineering/2-008Spring2004/Syllabus/
01:49 < fenn> hmm tornado sirens at 2 am
01:49 < kanzure> sirens, outside?
01:50 < fenn> ya
01:50 < Vedestin> what triggers tornado sirens?
01:50 < kanzure> people.
01:50 < Vedestin> are they manual?
01:50 < Vedestin> right
01:50 < kanzure> oh, network
01:50 < Vedestin> could vandals do it?
01:51 < kanzure> anybody smart enough would probably value silence ;-)
01:51 < fenn> no, looks like the storm will hit the north side of town but not me
01:54 < Vedestin> oh well
01:54 < fenn> better luck next time, vedestin
01:58 < Vedestin> with?
02:04 < fenn> destroying my underground laboratory using your soviet weather modification technology
02:06 < Vedestin> ahhh
02:06 < Vedestin> i'll get you next time
02:07  * Vedestin redirects his ionic heater
02:07 < Vedestin> *ionospheric rather
02:07 < fenn> sharper image sells weather modification tech now?
02:10 < Vedestin> yep
02:10 < Vedestin> pretty expensive
02:10 < fenn> "Sharper Image™ presents The Inflatable Lair" http://www.villainsource.com/lairs.html
02:14 < kanzure> "Whether I shall turn out to be the hero of my own life, or whether that station will be held by anybody else, these pages must show."
02:36 < fenn> marshallbrain.com turns out to be very pro-h+ and robotics, despite what i originally thought was 'scare tactics'
02:38 < kanzure> oh shit, where's my stack of stuff
02:39 < fenn> my hoard! where's my hoard!
02:40 < kanzure> I was at a restaurant and left it
02:40 < kanzure> should we try contacting Brain?
02:41 < fenn> he seems very interested in open source development, but it looks like he has no real first-hand reports of what it's like
02:42 < fenn> i think fernhout linked to his site, that's how i found it
02:42 < kanzure> uh
02:42 < kanzure> 'A manual for rebooting a crashed civilization back to 21st century technology'
02:42 < kanzure> http://www.keepthelightson.net/tiki/tiki-index.php
02:43 < kanzure> 'Forbidden - you have no access'
02:43 < fenn> just bad webmastering
02:44 < kanzure> 'security through self-sufficiency', yeah some self-sufficiency *that* webmaster has :)
02:44 < kanzure> http://web.archive.org/web/20070416232103/http://keepthelightson.net/tiki/tiki-index.php <-- the problem
02:44 < kanzure> why would you possibly insert a new user on page load
02:44 < kanzure> oh, sessions
02:44 < kanzure> http://web.archive.org/web/20061206001336/http://keepthelightson.net/tiki/tiki-index.php
02:45 < kanzure> ‘It is necessary to any originality to have the courage to be an amateur.’ 
02:45 < kanzure>                      — Wallace Stevens  
02:47 < fenn> http://web.archive.org/web/20060515042017/keepthelightson.net/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Manual
02:48  * kanzure is more interested in the contact info
02:49 < kanzure> ''
02:49 < kanzure> Articles: Civilization-in-a-box... available now!
02:49 < kanzure> second result on Google: the Singularity Institute.
02:49 < fenn> Alex Future Bokov
02:49 < kanzure> http://www.singinst.org/ourresearch/publications/GISAI/paradigms/seedAI.html
02:50 < kanzure> specifically Yudkowsky
02:50 < kanzure> yeah, I've met Bokov
02:50 < kanzure> in person
02:50 < fenn> san antonio, texas; +1.2109490128 nwfarxr02@sneakemail.com
02:50 < kanzure> oh, is that his wiki? Keep the Lights On?
02:50 < kanzure> yes
02:50 < kanzure> he just got his PhD
02:50 < fenn> thats who the domain is registered to
02:50 < kanzure> he also did a group called 'Transhumanism NOW'
02:51 < fenn> is his middle name really future?
02:51 < kanzure> he's currently: "alexbokov42" <f1r3br4nd@hotmail.com>
02:51 < kanzure> yep
02:53 < kanzure> okay, email sent
02:54 < kanzure> stupid convergence - I was hoping it was somebody new
02:54 < kanzure> I met Bokov at an Alcor meetup at Shannon Vyff's house.
02:54 < kanzure> it's also where I met Sean, the UT sociology student doing web 2.0 development
02:54 < kanzure> I think he's the only guy I've met in person, ever, who could top me in spitting out popular website names
02:55 < fenn> ah but you've got more bookmarks!
02:55 < kanzure> :)
02:56 < kanzure> I actually don't have many bookmarks on social-networking websites
02:56 < kanzure> hm
02:56  * kanzure is doing a recursion through WikiIndex
02:56 < kanzure> let me post what I have
02:57 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Wiki_index
02:57 < kanzure> especially anything in bold
02:57 < fenn> gah now that we have the internet and basically unlimited bandwith and page space, why do people insist on using initials in their references?
02:58 < kanzure> tradition nonsense
02:58 < kanzure> I'd totally go with a one-word name/identifier if it was socially acceptable
02:58 < fenn> there must be a thousand engineering professors named 'C. Zhang'
02:59 -!- ybit [n=u1@unaffiliated/ybit] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"]
03:02 -!- ybit [n=u1@unaffiliated/ybit] has joined #hplusroadmap
03:04 < Vedestin> it is socially acceptable
03:04 < Vedestin> madonna is a very well known academic
03:04 < kanzure> Madonna?
03:05 < fenn> the popular sex image theorist?
03:05 < Vedestin> yes
03:06 < ybit> "[Fri May 30 2008] [00:31:20] <kanzure>	I'm planning on some automated cloning machines + automated education machines.
03:06 < ybit> [Fri May 30 2008] [00:31:23] <kanzure>	think stormtrooper"
03:06 < fenn> her models have been conclusively disproven by lil'kim et al
03:06 < ybit> i misread that as starship trooper
03:06 < fenn> um, i mean, l. kim
03:07 < ybit> and spent nearly 45 mins watching that movie before being disguisted and reading the wikipedia entry looking for the technology introduced in the film, etc... just realized that it was stormtrooper o.O
03:09 < Vedestin> hahahahha
03:09 < kanzure> ybit: Hahah. :)
03:09 < fenn> ybit: the thing to understand about that film: it has no relation to the book, and it's actually a satirical comedy
03:09 < kanzure> ybit: You never saw Starship Troopers?
03:09 < ybit> never until now and still didn't watch all of it
03:09 < ybit> fenn: is that so? because i truly was laughing
03:10 < fenn> well i dont know if it was ever advertised that way, but it must be
03:10 < ybit> that would make sense
03:10 < ybit> it's how i perceived it
03:11 < fenn> in starship troopers the little wet lump of flesh is the biggest liability of their combat machine
03:11 < ybit> konversation and kopete need built-in spell-checkers
03:14 < fenn> god i cant believe that fucking film is more popular than the book
03:17 < ybit> kanzure: what did you write which appeared in Make?
03:17  * kanzure doesn't like Heinlein much, even though he did read some of his work.
03:17 < kanzure> ybit: the open biohacking kit introduction and link
03:17 < kanzure> when I released the link.
03:18 < ybit> ah, that did spread
03:20 < kanzure> We need joshcryer to get in here.
03:21 < kanzure> (2008-05-31 02:26:13) joshcryer: kanzure, Gingery machine, made my own homemade forge and all.
03:23 < fenn> here we go.. getting better at this:
03:23 < fenn> I just want to remind you apes that each and every one of you has cost the gov'ment, counting weapons, armor, ammo, instrumentation, and training, everything, including the way you overeat -- has cost, on the hoof, better'n half a million. Add in the thirty cents you are actually worth and that runs to quite a sum." He glared at us. #So bring it back! We can spare you, but we can't spare that fancy suit you're wearing.
03:24 < kanzure> hm?
03:24 < fenn> so, cloning is pretty useless in the starship troopers universe
03:26 < kanzure> heh, 
03:27 < kanzure> in Star Wars, cloning was automated, with automated education
03:27 < kanzure> and super-cheap manufacturing of the resources to arm the troopers, throw on some armor, etc.
03:29 < fenn> how educated do you need to be to get cannon-foddered for some teddy bears?
03:30 < kanzure> which one is the name: balter, baldo, balder, bolder, a middle name.
03:30 < fenn> depends on the first and last name
03:30 < kanzure> last name is of Polish descent
03:30 < fenn> i'd say balter with no further information though
03:31 < fenn> just because the others have silly meanings in english
03:31 < fenn> and baldor is trademarked :P
03:32 < kanzure> (2008-05-31 02:35:15) joshcryer: kanzure, the paper is entitled, "Exponential Growth of Large Self-Reproducing Machine Systems"
03:32 < kanzure> I think that's Lathner.
03:33 < kanzure> Lackner, rather.
03:39 < kanzure> joshcryer thinks the skdb project is 'uncomputable'
03:45 < kanzure> (2008-05-31 02:49:38) joshcryer: He can't do the whole of the project alone because the element seperation cycle, the IC manufacturing, all of those are going to require outside specialized involvement.
03:45 < kanzure> (2008-05-31 02:49:38) kanzure: I mean, just saying "And then magic happens here!" is not a good design strategy.
03:45 < kanzure> (2008-05-31 02:49:54) joshcryer: It is a perfect design strategy thank you very much!
03:46 < kanzure> talking about the reprap nozzle
03:46 < kanzure> fenn: #space please
03:49 < ybit> suppose i should go to bed
03:49 < ybit> 'night
03:49 < kanzure> night
04:05  * kanzure is going through his photos trying to find an image
04:05 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/camera/IMG_4400_3.JPG sister
04:08 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/camera/IMG_7709_2.JPG <--- Summary of my high school experience.
04:08 < kanzure> That's what I was looking for.
04:12 < fenn> so, senior year would be piles of papers covered in tiny black letters all in capitals
04:12 < fenn> and computer monitors everywhere
04:13 < kanzure> well, that was junior year too
04:13 < kanzure> senior year would be piles too, although I don't know where the piles have gone, they're kind of "lost" and "absorbed" into the rest of the piles in the room
04:14 < kanzure> I lost track of organization of school work in my senior year when I stopped caring
04:16 < kanzure> joshcryer's main objection seems to be that "it all looks incoherent"
04:16 < kanzure> so we need a way to convey to people that yes, it's actually coherent
04:19 < kanzure> fenn: http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2008-May/043812.html this is a good intro to extropy
04:22 < kanzure> in #space, did my BS detector just click?
04:27 < fenn> click clik clkckkkkckkkkkkchhhhhhh
04:27 < kanzure> eh?
04:27 < kanzure> beep, I mean.
04:27 < fenn> get outta thar she goanna blow!
04:27 < kanzure> heh
04:28 < kanzure> but he did mention he does RepRap and gingery machines
04:28 < kanzure> and he mentioned the extropians
04:28 < kanzure> so I was figuring I found a good convergent source
04:28 < kanzure> however, he doesn't seem to think that actually getting stuff done is a good idea
04:28 < fenn> he's enthusiastic at least
04:28 < kanzure> true.
06:27 < Splicer> on starship troopers: there was a reason they sent people instead of just bombed the panets which the they easily could have done and later did. I think one needs to know why it had to be people to understand the movie.
06:31 < Vedestin> why did it have to be people?
06:31 < Vedestin> i forget the movie
06:33 < Splicer> To me it's associated with ideas from the 30:ies... they are probably older, I don't know... it has to with that a country/society is forged throug war..
06:33 < Vedestin> ohh
06:33 < Vedestin> i thought you meant there was a plot device
06:34 < Splicer> no... just that the movie is actually very well written, but people don't have the referencepoints
06:34 < Vedestin> it's a novel
06:34 < Vedestin> and that would come out better in the novel
06:35 < Splicer> some of the stuff is from 'mein kampf'
06:35 < Splicer> like the idea that citizenship comes with military service not before
06:35 < Vedestin> Through Rico's eyes, Heinlein examines moral and philosophical aspects of suffrage, civic virtue, the necessities of war and capital punishment, and the nature of juvenile delinquency.[3]
06:35 < Vedestin> that comes from spartan society Splicer
06:35 < Splicer> yeah.. i believe you
06:36 < Vedestin> oh sorry, that's from the wikipedia page on the novel
06:36 < Vedestin> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starship_troopers
06:37 < Splicer> the idea was that every generation has to have a war... if you had an enemy that was womderful.. otherwise you had to create one to have the war.
06:38 < Vedestin> interesting idea
06:38 < Splicer> starship troopers is full of these references
06:39 < Splicer> for people who don't know about them it just becomes a stupud move about bugs in space.
06:41 < Vedestin> yeah ok
06:41 < fenn> the movie was about ww2 in czechoslovakia, read the director's interviews
06:41 < Vedestin> pretty sure it's about bugs, fenn
06:42 < fenn> why were they wearing plastic helmets and shooting machine guns then?
06:42 < Vedestin> http://www.ted.com/talks/view/id/19  Kevin Kelly: How does technology evolve? Like we did
06:42 < fenn> running around on foot
06:42 < fenn> on another planet ferchrissakes
06:42 < Vedestin> czechoslovakia isn't on another planet
06:43 < Vedestin> as much as you might have wanted it to be
06:43 < fenn> you're being intentionally dense
06:43 < Vedestin> facetious is the term
06:43 < Vedestin> yes, i am
06:43 < fenn> heinlein barely even mentions bugs in the book
06:44 < Vedestin> you're talking about a movie
06:44 < Vedestin> the book is not the movie
06:44 < fenn> yeah, and the movie is about ww2 in czechoslovakia
06:46 < fenn> the book is mostly about life in the military, but also about infantry combat in the space age, which is where the movie totally falls flat on its face for no particular reason except the director/producers wanted to be a bunch of dicks
06:47 < fenn> i think he brought up the bugs just because he had this great idea about bombing cities with meteors and wanted to use it somehow
06:48 < Splicer> Dizzy: My mother always told me that violence doesn't solve anything. 
06:48 < Splicer> Jean Rasczak: Really? I wonder what the city founders of Hiroshima would have to say about that. 
06:48 < Splicer> [to Carmen] 
06:48 < Splicer> Jean Rasczak: You. 
06:48 < Splicer> Carmen: They wouldn't say anything. Hiroshima was destroyed. 
06:48 < Splicer> Jean Rasczak: Correct. Violence has resolved more conflicts than anything else. The contrary opinion that violence doesn't solve anything is merely wishful thinking at its worst. 
06:50 < fenn> well, all i gotta say is that's not in the book
06:50 < fenn> well, not the hiroshima reference at least
06:51 < fenn> i say well too much
06:51 < fenn> rawr
06:52 < Splicer> Maybe, Paul Verhooven has his own visions... I like his movies.. they are usually very good social commentaries weaved into satire
06:53 < Splicer> maybe not usually.. but some of them
07:01 < fenn> According to Heinlein, his desire to write Starship Troopers was sparked by the publication of a newspaper advertisement placed by the National Committee for a Sane Nuclear Policy on April 5, 1958 calling for a unilateral suspension of nuclear weapon testing by the United States.
07:01 < fenn> so he would really have to be an asshole to put in the hiroshima reference
07:04 < Vedestin> didn't he start a group in direct opposition to that group?
07:04 < Vedestin> like they wanted to ban nuclear testing and he wanted to continue it or something
07:05 < fenn> yep
07:07 < fenn> apparently it was a "Non-notable minor organization totally forgotten except by fans of Heinlein"
07:11 < Vedestin> i read it on his wiki page
07:11 < Vedestin> not his
07:11 < Vedestin> the books
07:16 < fenn> ah i knew it! "Verhoeven admits that he never finished reading the actual book."
09:36 < kanzure> Vedestin: Kevin Kelly is a good guy to keep track of. http://kk.org/ it's how I learned about how Gingery and ultimately fenn.
09:38 < kanzure> I'm not impressed with Heinlein, for the record.
09:38 < kanzure> Barely impressed with Asimov (except his work ethic -- 9 hours a day of pure typing).
09:55 < kanzure> ooh
09:56 < kanzure> http://www.wikiindex.org/Let.sysops.be instead of NPOV it's ntPOV -- new troll point of view.
10:03 -!- nsh- [n=nsh@87-94-146-186.tampere.customers.dnainternet.fi] has joined #hplusroadmap
10:04 < fenn> aka skepticism
10:04 -!- nsh [n=nsh@87-94-146-186.tampere.customers.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Connection timed out]
10:07 < fenn> a lot of old things are no longer as impressive because we've been inundated with imitations and spinoffs of the original
10:07 < fenn> lord of the rings for example
10:13 -!- nsh- [n=nsh@87-94-146-186.tampere.customers.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
10:13 -!- nsh [n=nsh@87-94-146-186.tampere.customers.dnainternet.fi] has joined #hplusroadmap
11:09 < kanzure> http://howstuffismade.org/ it's like howstuffismade.com except includes 'human labor conditions'
11:09 < kanzure> even though it's about, uh, manufacturing
11:13 < kanzure> https://wikis.nyu.edu/xdesign/mediawiki/index.php/American_Flag haha, human flags made by human hand
11:13 < kanzure> brilliant
11:13 < kanzure> (specifically, the Chinese)
11:13 < kanzure> eat it
11:26 -!- Splicer [n=p@h98n2c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
11:26 -!- Splicer [n=p@h241n1c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
11:35 < kanzure> http://www.communitywiki.org/odd/MadScientist/HomePage mad scientist wiki
11:35 < kanzure> hey, look, it's David Cary :)
11:36 < kanzure> http://david.carybros.com/html/mad_science.html
11:37 < kanzure> he has a list of other mad scientists
11:39 < kanzure> friend of David Cary per the recentchanges - http://www.communitywiki.org/cw/MattisManzel - which cites lionkimbro ... hm.
11:53 -!- Vedestin [n=Vedestin@d122-109-35-58.sbr3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit ["User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby"]
12:06 < kanzure> http://carybros.com/ <-- impressive family?
12:16 < Splicer> cool creature: http://www.darkroastedblend.com/2007/10/natures-great-survivors-water-bears.html
12:17 < Splicer> (tardigrades) 
12:23 < Splicer> it says they can be frozen to "at -272 degrees Celsius for a couple of minutes, or at -200 degrees Celsius for days on end"... what would be the thing that hat happened in it after being frozen for a year as opposed to 2min in -272 deg celsius?
12:44 < kanzure> extremophiles :)
12:47 -!- Netsplit niven.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: ybit, nsh
12:49 -!- ybit [n=u1@c-71-207-240-143.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
12:53 -!- nsh [n=nsh@87-94-146-186.tampere.customers.dnainternet.fi] has joined #hplusroadmap
15:03 -!- Splicer [n=p@h241n1c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
15:03 -!- Splicer [n=p@h5n3c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
15:51 -!- Splicer [n=p@h5n3c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has quit []
16:05 -!- Phreedom [n=freedom@www.online.dn.ua] has joined #hplusroadmap
16:32 < Phreedom> bad news guys: the other person involved in my project how is out of the game for 2-8 weeks due to injury :(
16:32 < Phreedom> but we're going to finish it anyways
16:56 < kanzure> Phreedom: /me still does not know what this project of yours is.
16:57 < Phreedom> I'm 100% sure I tried explaining it at least once
16:57  * kanzure goes back to the logs
16:58 < Phreedom> it's a cheap high-precision positioning system capable of driving anything from a cnc milling machine to STM/dna assembler and other nanotech stuff
16:58 < Phreedom> by cheap I mean no more than $100-$150 per axis
16:58 < Phreedom> eventually can get as low as $50
16:59 < Phreedom> which means ATM/AFM can be as cheap as $300(depends on how cheaply you can make a vacuum pump, chamber etc)
17:00 < Phreedom> it will be based on piezo motors and interfeometers
17:00 < Phreedom> piezos can provide unlimited resolution. in practice resolution depends on the resolution of your position feedback system and control electronics
17:01 < Phreedom> interferometers can automatically compensate for most of manufacturing and assembly defects but need very fine polishing on optics surfaces
17:02 < Phreedom> this can be tackled as well with magnetorheological polishing
17:02 < Phreedom> there will be two varietes of the system. one optimized for macro stuff and other optimized for nanotech
17:03 < Phreedom> both quite similar in fact
17:03 < Phreedom> it's just the choice of parameters/dimensions and electronic components
17:57 < Phreedom> perhaps I wrote too much too early :P