--- Day changed Tue Aug 05 2008
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02:13 -!- Topic for #hplusroadmap: heybryan server will be down as of 2008-07-12 | Semi-intro http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXKbzbeipmI http://diybio.org/ http://openwetware.org/ | diy bio tools: http://biohack.sf.net/ | Automated societal knowledge (put it to work): http://heybryan.org/exp.html | Channel wiki: http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/ | F/OSS re: Kurzweil: http://heybryan.org/fernhout/
02:13 -!- Topic set by nsh [] [Tue Jul 15 03:32:49 2008]
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02:13 [ Endos] [ freer  ] [ kanzure_] [ procto   ] 
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02:13 -!- [freenode-info] if you're at a conference and other people are having trouble connecting, please mention it to staff: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp
02:13 -!- Channel #hplusroadmap created Sat Mar 22 15:44:12 2008
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03:14 < kanzure> Hey fenn
03:14 < kanzure>  http://heybryan.org/bryanmakesburger/100_0045.jpg <-- Cooking is not ... obvious.
04:51 < kanzure> http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/kevin_kelly_on_the_next_5_000_days_of_the_web.html
04:51 < kanzure> haven't watched it yet
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05:44 < kanzure> http://www.meme.com.au/papers/WTW/whatever.html
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12:05 -!- Topic for #hplusroadmap: heybryan server will be down as of 2008-07-12 | Semi-intro http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXKbzbeipmI http://diybio.org/ http://openwetware.org/ | diy bio tools: http://biohack.sf.net/ | Automated societal knowledge (put it to work): http://heybryan.org/exp.html | Channel wiki: http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/ | F/OSS re: Kurzweil: http://heybryan.org/fernhout/
12:05 -!- Topic set by nsh [] [Tue Jul 15 03:32:49 2008]
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12:05 [ fenn ] [ freer ] [ kanzure ] [ nsh    ] [ procto] 
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13:59 < kanzure> the internet is like a galaxy, and I'm trying to cherrypick a handful of stars out of billions
13:59 < kanzure> bah
14:04 < kanzure> hm, maybe I should put together a presentation for tomorrow?
14:09 < nsh> what's tommorow?
14:11 < kanzure> biobarcamp
14:16 < kanzure> hah
14:16 < kanzure> http://www.cs.jyu.fi/ai/OntoGroup/InBCT_May_2004.html
14:16 < kanzure> "Google search query generator":
14:16 < kanzure> "Google Search Query Generator         Textual descriptions (query strings) provided to Semantic Search Assistant are processed using WordNet ontologies that capture word meanings and relations between keywords and then converted into series of Google-queries taking into account keyword semantics and using advanced search features provided by Google; generated should return better results than if keywords are used dir
14:16 < kanzure> those bastards
14:16 < kanzure> 'Semantic Search Assistant' (SSA)
14:18 < nsh> wordnet is a joke
14:18 < nsh> like the best jokes, a lot of people don't get it and take it seriously
14:20 < kanzure> http://www.cs.jyu.fi/ai/OntoGroup/UBIWARE_details.htm
14:22  * kanzure wonders how far nsh would have to travel to steal their codebase
14:22 < kanzure> erm
14:22 < kanzure> nevermind
14:22  * nsh smiles
14:23 < nsh> this looks pretty interesting
14:34 < kanzure> the semantic search facilitator or biobarcamp?
14:38 < nsh> UBIWARE
14:40 < nsh> biobarcamp also looks cool
14:41 < kanzure> nsh: did I mention I'm getting to work with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Nelson ?
14:41 < ybit> i hadn't heard
14:42 < nsh> shit, really?
14:42 < ybit> *me b-day was yesterday so we've been having festivities all week*
14:42 < nsh> happy birthday ybit
14:42 < ybit> ty ty
14:42 < nsh> Ted Nelson is my kinda guy
14:42 < ybit> what are you two working on kanzure?
14:42 < ybit> is this at the siai?
14:43 < kanzure> ybit: no
14:43 < kanzure> though I did meet Eli two days ago, but anyway
14:43 < kanzure> ybit: We're working on a generic "hypermedia system" using zigzag. 
14:43 < kanzure> so it's actually something that can be implemented, not one of his pipe dreams (sadly)
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15:44 < kanzure> "This new tool offers a Google Maps-like view of integrative genomic
15:44 < kanzure> data," said Jill Mesirov,
15:44 < kanzure> http://www.broad.mit.edu/igv/
15:45 < kanzure> meh, not really apparently
15:49 < nsh> hrm
15:51 < kanzure> hurray!
15:51 < kanzure> I've been cited in a paper
15:51 < kanzure> I feel so special
15:52  * nsh smiles
15:52 < nsh> which?
16:00 < kanzure> http://www.springerlink.com/content/838234qr720218w8/fulltext.pdf
16:00 < kanzure> (it's open access)
16:00 -!- You're now known as fenn
16:12 < kanzure> hrm
16:15 < fenn> where are you cited in that paper?
16:18 < fenn> oh i see it now.. for some reason search for 'biohack' didnt show it
16:28 < fenn> i wonder what they're spending $39 billion on for bio"bio-devense"
16:41 < fenn> any bets on how long til we have a 9/11-style power grab with synbio?
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16:58 < kanzure> power grab?
16:58  * nsh wonders too
16:59 < fenn> massive irrational restrictive laws for the purpose of profit and domination
16:59 < fenn> you know, more of the usual
16:59 < kanzure> hm
16:59 < nsh> oh
17:00 < nsh> bound to happen
17:00 < nsh> well
17:00 < nsh> hmmm
17:00 < nsh> computers seemed to escape it
17:00 < kanzure> :)
17:00 < nsh> but they don't present such a risk-opportunity
17:00 < nsh> (and once they began to [filesharing], the genie was out of the bottle)
17:04 < kanzure> Gene sharing: don't
17:04 < kanzure> oh wait, sex
17:04 < kanzure> hm
17:08 < fenn> conjugation
17:09 < fenn> though 'massive irrational restrictive laws' certainly applies to sex
17:10 < kanzure> why hasn't anybody been stupid enough yet to outlaw bacteria?
17:11 < fenn> it would put the doctors out of work
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17:50 < kanzure> we need a keyboard that is also a mouse
17:51 < kanzure> i.e., move the keyboard = move the mouse
17:51 < kanzure> no need to move fingers off of the keys
17:52 < nsh> eye tracking would be simpler
17:53 < kanzure> no it wouldn't
17:53 < nsh> mice work because the brain can easily map the proprioceptive feedback of moving the hand to the movement of the cursor
17:53 < kanzure> you ever inadvertedly eye breasts?
17:53 < nsh> obviously it'd be connected to a manual action too
17:54 < nsh> pressure with the palm engages eye tracking
17:54 < nsh> or whatever
17:54 < kanzure> ah, okay
17:54 < kanzure> that might be worth it.
17:55 < fenn> a one handed keyboard could gyro/accelerometers built in
17:55 < fenn> no reason not to do both really.. i hate how X limits you to one cursor
17:55 < kanzure> I haven't figured out how to make a one-handed keyboard
17:55 < nsh> mmm
17:56 < fenn> i'm thinking something that looks sorta like a squished tothpaste tube with buttons/capacitive sensors all over it
17:56 < kanzure> motorcycle bar
17:56 < kanzure> handbar thing
17:56 < kanzure> hm, no
17:56 < kanzure> I have images of these things somewhere
17:56 < kanzure> rabid archiving of alternative hand-to-computer interfaces
17:57 < fenn> chording keyboard development is at an all time low
17:57 < kanzure> hm
17:57 < fenn> "Peer to peer theory is part of those movements that think such
17:57 < fenn> autonomy-in-cooperation is possible as a higher potential of human
17:57 < fenn> kind, and therefore opposed to those who embrace the independent
17:57 < fenn> logics of the machine"
17:58 < kanzure> yeah?
17:58 < fenn> do you think he really means that cooperation and AI are opposed?
17:58 < kanzure> heh
17:58 < kanzure> somewhat
17:58 < kanzure> but I don't think he means "we can cooperate to not build UFAI"
17:59 < kanzure> rather I think he means "you are all jerks and should remember your contextualization"
18:00 < fenn> actually i was sorta wondering why you sent a 20 page bio of eugene leitl to all these people?
18:00 < kanzure> twobits.net looked like an interesting book that has some relevance to those people
18:00 < kanzure> the overall book at least
18:00 < kanzure> there's some context here of course
18:01 < kanzure> the freedomofscience.org people (Jonathan J or something) were distancing themselves from the transhuman tech stuff
18:01 < kanzure> same with Michel Bauwens and so on
18:01 < kanzure> and since evidently all of the definitions completely failed, I figured I'd send it off to them at once
18:01 < kanzure> just so that they know that they are generally on the same playing field in my opinion
18:01 < kanzure> kinda doing the same damn things ...
18:01 < fenn> what definitions?
18:01 < kanzure> well, like Wikipedia's portrayol of transhumanism
18:01 < kanzure> and WTA's and such
18:01 < kanzure> all that bullshit.
18:02 < fenn> hmm
18:02 < fenn> ok the leitl bio makes more sense now
18:02 < kanzure> hurray
18:02 < nsh> wtf is this "independent logics of the machine"
18:02 < kanzure> nsh: unexamined logics
18:02 < kanzure> so-called "logics" of course
18:02 < nsh> that's some weapons-grade balls
18:03 < nsh> there was the paste from, ybit?
18:03 < nsh> *fenn
18:03 < kanzure> email
18:03 < kanzure> since hplusroadmap is dead for the time being
18:03  * kanzure is still hunting for relayhosts
18:03 < fenn> nsh: some more context: "are we fated to totally lose control of our socio-technical systems or not"
18:05 < kanzure> answer: yes
18:05 < kanzure> "our" => ambiguous
18:05 < fenn> bauwens seems to be ignoring the value of communications technology and the social structures it enables.. oddly enough
18:05 < fenn> maybe that's just my observer bias
18:06 < kanzure> what, like fiber optics?
18:06 < fenn> yes :)
18:06 < kanzure> methinks he might maybe know about ronja
18:06 < fenn> i wouldnt be having this conversation if not for fiber optics
18:06 < kanzure> or at least http://solarnetone.org/ now that I mentioned it to him
18:07 < fenn> another gnuveau.net alias
18:07 < kanzure> uh, well http://sleekfreak.ath.cx/
18:07 < kanzure> right
18:07 < kanzure> 'Gnuveau proudly announces SolarNetOne, a solar powered multi-user Linux Terminal Server network, with integrated long range wireless access point, analog telephone adapter, proximity based security system, and many other features.Please click the image below for more information on the green computing solution SolarNetOne.'
18:07 < fenn> with annoying time-delay redirects :\
18:07 < nsh> sweet
18:08 < kanzure> #solarnet-dev was kinda sorta idle
18:08 < kanzure> shogunx was showing up in here for .. a while
18:08 < kanzure> but he's mainly in #openmosix
18:08 < kanzure> #solarnet-dev on gnuveau.net's irc server
18:10 < fenn> ok well, imagine your ISP only had a wireless link to the rest of the net
18:10 < kanzure> bleh
18:10 < fenn> if done right it might not be bad at al
18:11 < fenn> but fiber is many orders of magnitude more efficient
18:11 < kanzure> me hasn't figured out how to make good fiber optics yet
18:11 < fenn> == costs less, as much as you think money doesn't exist
18:14  * kanzure goes back to looking up autogoogler
18:14 < kanzure> hm, but the presentation ..
18:14 < kanzure> hrm
18:18 < kanzure> "Search Assistant uses ontologically (WordNet) defined knowledge about words and embedded support of advanced Google-search query features in order to construct more efficient queries from formal textual description of searched information. 
18:18 < kanzure> Semantic Search Assistant hides from users the complexity of query language of concrete search engine and performs routine actions that most of users do in order to achieve better performance and get more relevant results."
18:18 < kanzure> delicious
18:22 < kanzure> http://www.cs.jyu.fi/ai/OntoGroup/InBCT_May_2004.html
18:24 < kanzure> ' In spite of that, English language has smaller number of verbs than nouns (as counted in LINK TO MILLER'S WORK, Collins English Dictionary lists 43,636 different nouns and 14,190 different verbs.'
18:24 < kanzure> heh
18:24 < kanzure> "It is obvious that COME BACK AND DO THE ACTUAL WORK HERE shows that there's a number of important ..."
18:34 < fenn> its not like anyone ever looks at the footnotes anywya
18:37 < fenn> i wish wordnet would use comp sci terminology instead of linguistics terminology
18:40 < kanzure> Steve's been trying to get me to use state vector machines for autogoogler
18:42 < kanzure> 'Default values of R can be de_ned by Sense Processor (by methods described in previous section) and can be manually customized by user. Through graphical interface user can see the list of all senses for each word from the search query and chose relevances using sliders.'
18:42 < kanzure> (R is a measure of relevance or something)
18:42 < kanzure> but 
18:42 < kanzure> sliders?
18:42 < kanzure> hell, I just want a list of 20 different queries that go off to execute all at once
18:42 < kanzure> not so much sliding but ... hm.
18:43  * kanzure listens to http://heybryan.org/music2/radio/Animeacademyradio.m3u
18:44 < fenn> combinatorial explosion
18:44 < kanzure> 'If the word was not found in WordNet database, value of relevance R and value of N for it are automatically initialized as 1. So the total quality will have maximum possible value equal to 1. This choice can be explained in such way: if WordNet doesn't contain some word from user query, it can be some specific term or expression, and it must be definitely included as is into new query.'
18:45 < fenn> google will get mad if you send 10^18 queries
18:45 < kanzure> meh
18:45 < kanzure> I'm not going to use Google
18:45 < kanzure> I don't have their SOAP stuff
18:45 < kanzure> but Yahoo! has been friendly with me :)
18:45 < fenn> blasphemy!
18:45 < kanzure> not my fault Google shut off their dev access
18:45 < kanzure> wouldn't have had to go to yahoo were it not for that
18:46 < kanzure> 'If there is only one word in search query, first 10 words from sorted array of Q's may be placed in new query.'
18:46 < kanzure> erm
18:46 < fenn> there ought to be some kind of distributed search algorithm
18:46 < kanzure> this doesn't explain the ways of manipulating the string though
18:46 < kanzure> just an array of a relevance gradient is stupid
18:46 < kanzure> distributed search algo
18:46 < kanzure> geeze, like wikia search
18:46 < kanzure> and gnucrawler or whatever
18:46 < kanzure> oh wait, Jimbo fucked that one up
18:47 < fenn> um, not wikia? i just mean something that runs on each web server that will dig through its own files (saving bandwidth)
18:47 < kanzure> wikia search was built off of some distributed p2p crawler code sort of
18:47 < kanzure> Google Sites has that .xml format for internal digging to be made public
18:47 < fenn> not a crawler at all, i mean a server side search
18:47 < kanzure> but meh
18:48 < fenn> when i ask you a question i dont tell you to tell me everything you know and then figure out the answer myself
18:48 < kanzure> k
18:49 < nsh> i don't think there was much there to fuck up at any point
18:49 < fenn> train of thought was like this: googl and yahoo have a natural monopoly because we can't have every computer crawling every other computer
18:49 < nsh> google and yahoo have a natural monopoly because they are not required by law to share their data
18:49 < nsh> which will never happen :-/
18:50 < fenn> it's almost like people can't even imagine cooperating
18:51 < fenn> there's no way every computer on the net is ever going to be a perfect mirror of every other computer
18:51 < nsh> "it's the economy, stupid"
18:53 < fenn> what i'm talking about is like turning google inside out
18:53 < nsh> pls elaborate
18:53 < fenn> instead of having a crawler that downloads data from remote servers and then performs algorithms on that data, the crawler would upload algorithms to other servers which would then run them on their data
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18:54 < fenn> of course now you have all of the search queries running on all of the computers
18:55 < fenn> but i'm sure there's some way around that
18:55 < fenn> i just havent thought of it
18:56 < kanzure> belly of the beast
18:57 < fenn> you could do something like sorting by hash keys
18:57 < fenn> with a distributed hash table
18:57 < fenn> it could work
18:57 < kanzure> the semantic search facilitator has its full documentation on the page there
18:57 < kanzure> hrm
18:57 < kanzure> with a few source files mentioned but no links
18:59 < fenn> is it open source?
18:59 < kanzure> '[Paper] Context-Sensitive Multidimensional Resource Visualization'
18:59 < kanzure> it's using GPLed tools methinks
18:59 < kanzure> so it must be?
19:02 < kanzure> odd how few search results there are for SSA
19:03 < kanzure> *SSF
19:03 < kanzure> http://www.cs.jyu.fi/ai/vagan/ head of metaintelligence lab has an @yahoo address
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19:16 < kanzure> gahh
19:16 < kanzure> prototype written in java
19:27 < kanzure> so it looks like they were just building queries based off of an arbitrary measure of relevance according to WordNet, getting user feedback, and then running those queries
19:27 < kanzure> took them five months to do *that* ?
19:27 < kanzure> wtf
19:29 < kanzure> maybe I just have a disorder where everything seems simpler than it actually is
19:29 < fenn> me too
19:32 < kanzure> what gets me is the rules for assembling the new queries
19:32 < kanzure> it can't just be an array of strings
19:32 < kanzure> but an array of some linked lists of terms or something
19:32 < kanzure> or at least an array of recipes for the generation of the new queries or something like this
19:32 < kanzure> as you add each term there becomes an increasingly large number of different manipulations to do to the overall query, no?
19:33 < kanzure> so it looks like just an extend + recursion problem in that regard
19:33 < kanzure> i.e., for a query of length N recurse through all of the terms and do the manipulations
19:35 < fenn> seems they are trying to come up with the 'perfect' search query, when there's no such thing
19:35 < kanzure> correct
19:36 < kanzure> just mutations that you can do to the query / with the query
19:37 < kanzure> Tom McCabe, one of the guys living here (he's on acceleratingfuture.com/tom/ next to /michael/ (who also happens to be here), when asked if he had any original statements of his own to blurt out, answered, "I get everything from the internet. How could it be any different?"
19:37 < kanzure> bah
19:37 < kanzure> *here))
19:37 < fenn> hm, that's too bad
19:37 < kanzure> ?
19:38 < kanzure> 'brain as a mutation engine' == too bad?
19:38 < fenn> everyone should come up with at least one new thing
19:38 < kanzure> heh
19:38 < kanzure> it's funny how we're all severely autistic
19:38 < kanzure> except Michael and the java programmer
19:39 < kanzure> well, by 'severe' I mean
19:39 < kanzure> to the extent that it's obvious we're pacing around in circles and ridiculous i.e. with http://heybryan.org/bryanmakesburger/
19:39 < fenn> you said 'living here' i'm curious what the meatspace arrangement is like
19:39 < fenn> is there a house? a hotel?
19:40 < kanzure> renting a house yeah
19:40 < kanzure> so here's how it actually works
19:40 < kanzure> Anna, the facilitator who grabbed me from Austin, has been living with Steve since they were in high school or something
19:40 < kanzure> Anna takes care of Steve and makes sure he eats and i.e., doesn't die
19:41 < kanzure> *since after they were in high school
19:41 < kanzure> so they have a very small amount of cash that's running out a week after I leave
19:41 < fenn> heh nice brain pod
19:41 < kanzure> ?
19:42 < fenn> your burger.. n/m
19:42 < kanzure> oh, right :)
19:42 < biopunk> "this is your brain on drugs"
19:42 < kanzure> yeah, none of us really know how to cook
19:42 < kanzure> so it's awkward but whatever
19:42 < kanzure> "meh, just nuke it for a while"
19:43  * fenn suggests using the internet
19:43 < biopunk> done that
19:43 < kanzure> I was thinking of doing something like spotting Steve for a while
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19:43 < kanzure> until I realized I'm probably going down his same path anyway
19:43 < fenn> "Note that video games cannot be used to transmit technical knowledge" <- bullshit
19:44 < kanzure> where?
19:44  * kanzure got off topic
19:44 < fenn> http://www.acceleratingfuture.com/tom/
19:45 < kanzure> heh, we all play Endgame fairly regularly :p
19:46 < fenn> well, its not my fault e:s is lacking in the technical knowledge department
19:46 < fenn> i think you'd need something like skdb to make it realistic though
19:47 < fenn> i.e. not like sid meyer's civilization game
19:47 < kanzure> tech trees in RTSes are of course relevant
19:47 < kanzure> if they actually were based off of realstuff
19:47 < kanzure> (the trees)
19:48 < fenn> eric hunting was obsessed with making a realistic space colonization game
19:48 < fenn> as a means to further the meme
19:48 < fenn> (and possibly attract funding)
19:48 < kanzure> wait, what?
19:48 < biopunk> uh oh
19:48 < kanzure> http://www.accelerationwatch.com/biotech.html  'Performance Limitations on Natural and Engineered Biological Systems'
19:49 < fenn> wait what what?
19:49 < kanzure> the game?
19:49 < kanzure> eric had a game?
19:49 < fenn> let me dig up some relevant emails
19:53 < kanzure> ' "Engineering RNA Logic with Synthetic Splicing Ribozymes" '
19:54 < fenn> ah here we go, a typical novel-length exposition: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/luf-team/message/8313
19:55 < kanzure> I don't know how Eric keeps beating the shit out of my lengthy messages
19:55 < fenn> it's really something isnt it
19:56 < fenn> i guess he got bummed out about it after trying to contact several video game publishers
19:57 < kanzure> wrong way to go about it
19:57  * kanzure is a homebrew indie video game programmer
19:57 < fenn> more about it here http://tmp2.wikia.com/wiki/M3_Game_Project
20:00 < kanzure> hm, I need to get back to the query generator
20:00 < kanzure> ljfkladfjlkasfj;kadsfjkas
20:07 < kanzure> heh
20:07 < kanzure> import ontology from dna mutation
20:07 < kanzure> insertion, deletion, frameshift, and that other thingy
20:08 < kanzure> and then I'll just manually select from a 'tag cloud' of the sort in typespeed
20:12 -!- jm|earth [n=jm@p57B9CD5F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["quit"]
20:28 < kanzure> static-151-201-29-168.pitbpa.east.verizon.net.
20:28 < kanzure> any of us?
20:28 < kanzure> the neurocommons-rdf guys are wondering
21:11 < kanzure> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8162700386327580205&ei=SfeYSOXkGYGYqQOJ6NjLDA&q=pinky+%26+the+brain&vt=lf
21:22 -!- willPow3r [i=will@174.sub-75-217-126.myvzw.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
21:23 < kanzure> shit
21:23 < kanzure> http://grey.colorado.edu/emergent/index.php/Comparison_of_Neural_Network_Simulators
21:29 < kanzure> crap
21:29 < kanzure> there's a deb file
21:29 < kanzure> http://grey.colorado.edu/emergent/index.php/Main_Page
21:32 -!- nsh [n=nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has quit []
21:33 < kanzure> crap, it's O'Reilly
21:33  * kanzure knows why Superkuh had an interest in him
21:37 < kanzure> http://grey.colorado.edu/emergent/index.php/Screenshots
21:40 < kanzure> http://grey.colorado.edu/emergent/index.php/Build_From_Package_Ubuntu
21:41 < kanzure> where do these projects come from?
22:19 < fenn> "What we've seen of these modifications so far is that they always introduce a range of unanticipated side effects (mice with better memories have pain intolerance and social problems, for example)"
22:19 < fenn> he forgot to mention they always try to take over the world
22:20 -!- willPow3r [i=will@174.sub-75-217-126.myvzw.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
22:22 < fenn> heh pinky shoulda frozen solid when he stuck his tongue on that ice-9