--- Day changed Mon Jul 27 2009
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00:35 < ybit> 13:25 < kanzure> mike mentioned that he would like to package the neural tissue scanner into skdb
00:35 < ybit> mike?
00:36 < ybit> 13:25 < kanzure> he doesn't even know if it's a university-only project, or if todd has the reigns on it or what
00:36 < ybit> todd?
00:36 < ybit> must be utexas people
00:42 < ybit> 7:53 < timschmidt> excitingly, my wrench-buildable machine got two fully working axes, including motor mounts, lead screws,  everything last night.  Still only a wrench and a hacksaw were used.
00:42  * ybit is impressed
00:43 < timschmidt> :)
00:43 < QuantumG> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cjWTWrma9Q
00:43 < timschmidt> I _didn't_ do most of the work
00:44 < timschmidt> I'll have pictures up as soon as I get some from the other members in attendance.
00:46 < ybit> timschmidt: how much do you guess the wrench-buildable machine will cost in total?
00:49 < timschmidt> depends heavily on what price you can get the square perforated tube for.  I estimate $75 in parts other than the tube, motors, and electronics.  I paid $22 / 6ft for the tube, and used perhaps 20ft of it.
00:50 < timschmidt> meh.  more like 30ft of it
00:51 < ybit> this make me very happy and greedy
00:51 < timschmidt> the next highest cost items are the drawer rails, for which I paid $14 / pair
00:51 < timschmidt> and used 3 pair
00:51 < timschmidt> everything else is pocket change
00:52 < ybit> just plan on me bothering you for awhile after i save up some money :)
00:53 < timschmidt> each pillow block bearing (of which there are 6) costs about $0.50 to build.  Lead screws are inexpensive allthread.  Couplers (for motors + lead screws) are two $0.60 shaft collars (which I also use to restrict the lead screws) JB-welded together.
00:53 < timschmidt> And that's about all of it
00:54 < timschmidt> nuts, bolts, washers, a spacer or two, and some pipe hangers to couple the stages to the drive nuts.
00:56 < timschmidt> I think the square perf tube is both the most expensive and hardest to find component.  Any help finding a cheap source of it is welcome.
00:56 < timschmidt> I bought mine at Menards
00:57 < genehacker_light> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UJDxp2gv3o
00:57 < genehacker_light> quantumg, who's rocket is that?
00:58 < genehacker_light> you posted that death of a camera thing so I figure you might know
00:58 < QuantumG> Paul Breed's
00:58 < QuantumG> Unreasonable Rocket
00:58 < QuantumG> http://unreasonablerocket.blogspot.com/
00:58 < genehacker_light> oh
00:59 < QuantumG> see also http://www.youtube.com/user/bbrockert
00:59 < QuantumG> Masten Space Systems
01:00 < QuantumG> those two will be battling for the second prize of the first stage of the Lunar Lander Challenge this year.. John Carmack's team won the first prize of the first level last year.
01:00 < QuantumG> and they intend to win the first prize of the second level this year :)
01:02 < katsmeow-afk> cheap bearing holders: http://designerthinking.com/idlers.html
01:02 < genehacker_light> oh yeah
01:02 < katsmeow-afk> i don't sell them, but i made some, that's a howto
01:03 < katsmeow-afk> standard bearings, stock steel tubing, make as long or short as you like, no real tools needed
01:04 < ybit> kanzure, so skdb has been renamed to tangible bit?...
01:04 < katsmeow-afk> the tubing is heavy enough to weld or braze into othe bits of steel or wood
01:04  * ybit likes skdb
01:04 < ybit> much shorter
01:04 < ybit> ..and precise.. as i've stated before
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01:06 < ybit> nice katsmeow-afk 
01:06 < any10284809> erg
01:06 < timschmidt> katsmeow-afk: awesome!
01:06 < ybit> this week i'm heading to the junkyard to teach myself welding. yay
01:06 < any10284809> thanks
01:06 < any10284809> timschmidt, url?
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01:06 < timschmidt> http://builders.reprap.org/2009/04/first-example-of-wrench-build-machine.html
01:06 < timschmidt> it looks much more complete now, however.
01:06 < timschmidt> will get pictures ASAP
01:09 < katsmeow> re skate bearings, englich bearing of near-same size, but true english (1/4 inch bore) measures are a lil cheaper than real skate bearings
01:13 < ybit> first time i saw this: http://openfarmtech.org/index.php?title=Open_Source_Lathe
01:14  * ybit is off to bed
01:14 < ybit> gn timschmidt, katsmeow, QuantumG, genehacker_light 
01:14 < timschmidt> night
01:14 < katsmeow> gnite ybit
01:28 < genehacker_light> good night
01:29 < genehacker_light> I will not sleep tonight
01:34 < katsmeow> ybit, just a note, remember this: re: http://openfarmtech.org/index.php?title=File:Clamps.jpg that style clamp is terribly inaccurate for the ID, in fact you can place one side ont he rod, and *rock it* side to side, as in over .010 play on each side; those things are not bored properly
01:34 < katsmeow> however, with a drill press, you can make more accurate ones
01:35 < katsmeow> they get real pricey in stainless and larger sizes, but you can get them in any shaft size
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02:01 < flazmot> /w/
02:01 < flazmot> w/
02:01 < flazmot> w
02:02 < flazmot> hi
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02:36 < genehacker_light> wall?
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03:11 < splicer> is there some other channel keeping bot than chanServ on freenode?
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04:28 < kanzure> Smari: I merged for you.
04:28 < kanzure> ybit: it's just a merge at this point.
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04:44 < kanzure> hey Smari
04:45 < Smari> y0
04:45 < kanzure> I merged.
04:45 < Smari> any luck yesterday?
04:45 < kanzure> pull?
04:46 < Smari> from which?
04:46 < Smari> tb?
04:46 < kanzure> http://adl.serveftp.org/skdb.git/
04:46 < kanzure> http://adl.serveftp.org/skdb.git
04:46 < Smari> ah k
04:46 < Smari> I pulled on tb this morning and was disappointed ;)
04:47 < Smari> cloning on Hilbert, yay.
04:47 < kanzure> is hilbert your dog?
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04:48 < Smari> kanzure, it's my new computer.
04:49 < Smari> My computing devices are named after mathematicians - my cellphone is Shannon, the work laptop Cauchy, my old desktop is Julia, my old laptop was Carroll... I've also had Hausdorff, Euler, Mandelbrot and a couple of others.
04:50 < Smari> The chronology of the archive is very strange.
04:50 < kanzure> your commits should be in the logs
04:50 < Smari> they are
04:51 < Smari> but they're in the wrong order. I'm not complaining though, it looks cool.
04:51 < kanzure> wrong order? how did that happen?
04:51 < kanzure> isn't it by date?
04:51 < Smari> Nope
04:52 < kanzure> what should it be by?
04:52 < Smari> Some things from 2009-07-26 come before 2009-07-18 in the chronology..
04:52 < Smari> It's ordered by in which order the changes were made to the archive..
04:52 < Smari> so you probably merged folders in some order..
04:53 < kanzure> I think you might be using a special option to "git log"
04:53 < Smari> which didn't agree with how they came into existence (and how could it?)
04:53 < Smari> I'm using gitk
04:53 < kanzure> aha
04:53 < Smari> but hey, it seems to work
04:54 < Smari> Hm.
04:55 < Smari> Something's missing.
04:55 < kanzure> 'media'
04:55 < kanzure> I was hesitant to import binary data.
04:55 < Smari> sources is also missing
04:55 < kanzure> check out inventory/
04:56 < Smari> Ah
04:56 < Smari> I see no real reason not to import binary data, as long as it's static stuff.
04:57 < Smari> media isn't just binary either
04:57 < Smari> a lot of it is javascript code
04:57 < kanzure> there was a few css files and javascript files in there, yeah
04:57 < kanzure> but it would have confused the fuck out of you
04:57 < kanzure> if I had just imported the CSS and js
04:57 < kanzure> and not the images
04:57 < Smari> yeah
04:57 < Smari> It's four images
04:57 < kanzure> no, there were many more
04:57 < Smari> Hmm?
04:58  * kanzure digs around
04:58 < Smari> Ah no...
04:58 < Smari> admin/ is a symbolic link
04:58 < kanzure> tangiblebit/tangiblebit.com/media/admin/img/admin
04:58 < kanzure> oh?
04:58 < kanzure> hey, you're right
04:58 < Smari> Its contents shouldn't be imported
04:58 < Smari> Because it's linking to the Django distribution
04:59 < kanzure> ok so four images aren't as terrible as "many" :)
04:59 < Smari> yes.
04:59 < Smari> Should I re-add them or will you merge them in?
05:00 < Smari> Oh, btw.. I don't have 
05:00 < Smari> write permissions
05:00 < Smari> on skdb.git
05:00 < kanzure> please go ahead and fix
05:00 < Smari> (do I?)
05:00 < Smari> sure
05:00 < Smari> Actually, there's a bunch of history behind the javascript files...
05:00 < Smari> so could you merge instead?
05:00 < kanzure> yes
05:00 < Smari> thx
05:02 < kanzure> er there's a lot of images in media/javascript/components/slider/img/new/Image101.gif
05:02 < kanzure> er there's a lot of images in media/javascript/components/slider/img/
05:02 < genehacker2> still awake or up early?
05:03 < kanzure> neither
05:03 < kanzure> this is the sleep-walking subsystem of kanzure
05:03 < genehacker2> zombie-mode?
05:04 < kanzure> not quite
05:04 < kanzure> Smari: anything to look for in the logs to see if I was successful?
05:05 < Smari>  not... really..
05:05 < kanzure> "Restructuring javascript interface" ?
05:06 < Smari> kanzure, that would be a good one
05:06 < Smari> yeah
05:06 < kanzure> okay, it worked then.
05:06 < kanzure> now, where should media/ go?
05:06 < kanzure> in inventory/ ?
05:08 < Smari> kanzure, that works, but it has bad side-effects..
05:08 < Smari> No, actually, I can work around them
05:09 < Smari> It's mostly that Django runs slow if normal files are being passed through it before download.
05:09 < CIA-43> skdb: spm * re138d0cdafc7 /inventory/media/javascript/latlonselector.js: Converging, some bugs in the sitedetails.json template though, ignore for now.
05:09 < CIA-43> skdb: spm * r9c209521bf59 /inventory/media/javascript/maptools.js: ...
05:09 < Smari> But I can bypass it.
05:09 < CIA-43> skdb: spm * r3459f7f262aa /inventory/media/javascript/site.js: Restructuring JavaScript interface...
05:09 < CIA-43> skdb: spm * re41a57262728 /inventory/media/javascript/site.js: Pushing around some javascript functions, cleaning up site management interface.
05:09 < CIA-43> skdb: spm * r3e03562c6890 /inventory/media/javascript/site.js: More XMLRPC and Javascript glue.
05:09 < CIA-43> skdb: spm * rbf45cb500af8 /inventory/media/javascript/ (latlonselector.js map.js site.js): Map and LatLon selector development. Why the hell doesn't OpenLayers have a DragMarker class?!
05:09 < CIA-43> skdb: kanzure * r8f55c88a63d7 /inventory/media/ (175 files in 22 dirs): Merge commit 'git-import-folder-merge/master'
05:11  * Smari is impressed
05:11 < kanzure> does this turn you on? 
05:11 < kanzure> muahah
05:12 < kanzure> actually don't answer that
05:12 < Smari> Noooooooooooooo.... how could you?! You evil evil man!
05:12 < Smari> You've converted tabs into spaces
05:13 < Smari> Why don't you just kill me now and have it over with?
05:13 < kanzure> because I enjoy watching developers suffer, or something sadistic like that
05:14 < Smari> Gah, I'm verging on a nervous breakdown here... spaces... spaces for indentation... why oh why... what have I done to deserve this?
05:14 < Smari> :P
05:18 < Smari> I suppose I either have to get over my tab-addiction (which has been with me since 1996) or I convince you that tabs are the right way to go...
05:18 < Smari> and I'm honestly not sure which would be easier ;)
05:18 < kanzure> er right now I'm falling back asleep
05:18 < kanzure> zombie mode over
05:18 < kanzure> er, sleep-walking mode over I mean
05:18  * kanzure looks around with shifty eyes
05:19 < Smari> heheh
05:23 < kanzure> Smari: btw, skdb.git is at: /var/www/skdb.git/ on adl
05:23 < Smari> ~/.ssh/authorized_keys isn't working on adl :(
05:23 < kanzure> any suggestions on how to get it working?
05:23 < Smari> no...
05:23 < Smari> sorry
05:24 < Smari> my fault!
05:24 < Smari> That was VERY awkward
05:24 < kanzure> well I'm certainly not interested in using passwords forever
05:24 < kanzure> so getting keys working would be hot
05:24 < Smari> it works
05:24 < kanzure> yay
05:24  * kanzure sleeps
05:24 < Smari> just generate your key and put the public key in ~/.ssh/authorized_keys
05:25 < Smari> but make a point of not putting the private key there ;)
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05:28 < flazmot> smari
05:28 < Smari> yes?
05:28 < flazmot> try authorized_keys2
05:28 < flazmot> sounds like you got it
05:28 < Smari> it works
05:28 < flazmot> word
05:28 < flazmot> it's not hard
05:28 < Smari> I know
05:28 < flazmot> so much bteter than typing your password another thousand times too
05:28 < Smari> I just made a stupid mistake
05:28 < flazmot> heh
05:28 < flazmot> seen
05:28 < Smari> I uploaded the private key by accident ;)
05:28 < flazmot> ;O
05:28 < Smari> very much thinking about regenerating
05:29 < flazmot> hehh
05:29 < flazmot> i ran out of POT
05:29 < flazmot> but i am going to sleep today so i can call a podcast tonight ,_,
05:30 < Smari> gnite
05:30 < Smari> or..
05:30 < flazmot> it just stinks that's what i use to engineer my day/night cycle and my mood
05:30 < Smari> gday
05:30 < flazmot> yz
05:30  * flazmot waves
05:30 < Smari> either way, have fun
05:30 < Smari> peace
05:31 < flazmot> *because that's
05:31 < flazmot> it doesnt stink that i use pot for that, it's good for those things
05:31 < flazmot> ought to be in the supermarket
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06:04 < genehacker2> http://www.umpcportal.com/2009/07/awesome-wearable-computer-setup-is-powered-by-sony-vaio-ux-umpc
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07:46 < kanzure> sounds like the fan on leibniz's power supply is dying
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11:54 < ybit> hi Infornographer
11:54 < help> ayo
11:54 < ybit> how'd you hear about this channel?
11:54 -!- help is now known as inri
11:54 < inri> Mr worldpeace brought me here
11:54 < inri> sec, brb
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11:55 < Inri> There we go!
11:56 < Inri> Got my nick set up all straight.
11:56 < ybit> :p
11:57 < Inri> I hear you guys are into all sorts of neat stuff. :)
11:57 < ybit> you might have heard correctly :)
11:57 < CIA-43> skdb: kanzure * r3691c4651d6e /doc/BOMs/perfusion-equipment.yaml: minor typo fix in perfusion equipment bill of materials
11:57 < CIA-43> skdb: kanzure * rb431ac9bc31c /pymates/pymates.py: fix pymates error
11:57 < CIA-43> skdb: kanzure * r61212e16e8d0 /doc/todo/presentation.txt: notes for the upcoming presentation
11:57 < CIA-43> skdb: kanzure * r2bd71788bac1 /doc/ (TODO todo/TODO): moved TODO to doc/todo/TODO
11:57 < CIA-43> skdb: kanzure * r519072f7ca5e /packages/screw/screw.py: fixed an indent error in screw.py
11:57 < CIA-43> skdb: kanzure * rd66e52789cf3 / (3 files in 2 dirs): pymates todo and some modifications to the yaml data
11:58 < CIA-43> skdb: kanzure * rd54022333449 /doc/todo/pymates-todo: more monday meeting notes for pymates
11:58 < CIA-43> skdb: kanzure * r4ebd3a33fec5 /doc/todo/presentation.txt: more presentation notes to be turned into slides
11:58 < CIA-43> skdb: kanzure * rea3bfe6473dd /doc/todo/process-constraints-notes.txt: took some notes on process constraints from the meeting
11:58 < CIA-43> skdb: kanzure * ref64a69fd4de /doc/todo/process-constraints-notes.txt: more process constraints notes
11:59 < kanzure> sorry for the commit spam
12:00  * ybit doesn't mind
12:00 < ybit> at least there's progress being made
12:01 < ybit> or so i suspect
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12:12 < kanzure> fenn: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.39.9111&rep=rep1&type=pdf
12:12 < kanzure> see page 8
12:21 < kanzure> compatibility-knowledge-base method (pg.13 of "Automated Manufacturability Analysis - a survey")
12:21 < kanzure> "   El-Gizawy et al. EGHB90] presented a system which considers the suitability of di erent man-
12:21 < kanzure> ufacturing processes for a given part based on a process capability database.
12:21 < kanzure> "
12:22  * ybit is spamming the diy h+er facebook group members about the mailing list
12:23 < kanzure> "A strategy for integrating product and process design of aerospace components". Manufacturing Review 3 (3): 178 186, 1990.
12:24 < kanzure> "Simplified generation of all mechanical assembly sequences" <-- bwahah
12:26 < genehacker2> interesting
12:26 < genehacker2> you know I've heard that NASA is partially managed by software
12:28 < Inri> What do you mean "managed"?
12:29 < Inri> Obviously they have quite a few algorithms working out logistic matters. :)
12:32 < kanzure> "                                A compatibility rating between the product profile requirements and the
12:32 < kanzure> alternatives stored in the database for each decision criteria is generated using possibility theory. The vector
12:32 < kanzure> of compatibility ratings are aggregated into a single rating of that alternative’s compatibility. A ranked set of
12:32 < kanzure> compatible material and manufacturing process alternatives is output by the system.
12:32 < kanzure> "
12:32 < kanzure> the preceeding was from 'a decision support system for material and manufacturing process selection'
12:35 < kanzure> "manufacturing process capabilities" doesn't really help you to figure out what breaks and hwen
12:36 < kanzure> *when
12:36 < genehacker2> shit, you mean everything I just learned in my materials class can now be accomplished by a piece of software?
12:36 < kanzure> "The manufacturing process selection module identifies feasible manufacturing processes and rank them
12:36 < kanzure> according to the compatibility of their capabilities with the product profile requirements.
12:36 < kanzure> "
12:36 < fenn> genehacker2: not even close
12:37 < kanzure> "Figure 6 Possibility of wall thickness under a manufacturing process capability"
12:37 < kanzure> meh that requires the wall to be tagged as such though
12:37 < fenn> CUTDATA provides Cutting Speed and Feedrate recommendations that will result in acceptable tool life, cutting a given material in a specific hardness range or heat treatment condition
12:37 < genehacker2> ok dang
12:37 < fenn> i wonder how much CUTDATA costs
12:38 < genehacker2> I wouldn't be surprised though
12:38 < kanzure> "and a compatibility rating vector for each manufacturing process alternative."
12:40 < genehacker2> there are some formulas for determining the probability of survival for a ceramic material in terms of size and applied stress and defect density 
12:41 < kanzure> genehacker2: what we need is a way to say "here are the main ways you fuck up a milling machine"
12:41 < genehacker2> 1.
12:42 < genehacker2> stress applied on anypart exceeds yield point
12:42 < genehacker2> 2. part
12:42 < genehacker2> is subject to creep and could fail within a certain time period
12:43 < kanzure> Fig. 7. Partial EXPRESS-G diagram of manufacturing resource model for cutting tool data (Jurrens et al., 1996).
12:44 < genehacker2> 3. stress applied to part exceeds fatigue limit and part will fail within a short time
12:44 < ybit> oh alright, guess i'm gone to scan some books
12:45 < genehacker2> 4.part happens to be made of brittle material and any bump in the wrong direction could break it
12:45 < kanzure> "2~The use of process specification language for cutting processes"
12:45 < genehacker2> fatigue would be hard though because fatigue is hard to measure
12:46 < genehacker2> but those are the generall causes of part failure
12:46 < genehacker2> oh and corrosion
12:46 < genehacker2> that too
12:47 < genehacker2> 5. creep
12:48 < genehacker2> part slowly deforms until it's useless or breaks
12:48 < genehacker2> as is happening for the the PTFE barrels on repraps
12:49 < kanzure> "capability profile"
12:49 < fenn> the most often cause of failure is mechanical resonance induced by the endmill cutting forces
12:49 < fenn> that, and crashing... and chip clogging
12:50 < genehacker2> but if you can figure out stress applied, what sort of vibrations would be produced, and the temperature it operates in you should be good
12:50 < kanzure> SK Gupta keeps on showig up
12:50 < genehacker2> mechanical res can be figured out
12:50 < fenn> easy for you to say
12:50 < genehacker2> from computers models
12:50 < fenn> what computer models
12:50 < genehacker2> that take a really long time
12:50 < fenn> modal analysis? good luck
12:50 < genehacker2> FEA duh
12:51 < fenn> how do you model an oil film cushion with FEA?
12:51 < fenn> assuming i can even get the parameters describing a machine tool in the first place
12:53 < genehacker2> parameters describing machine tool might be taken as a function of the head being used, material, being cut, and speed operated at.
12:53 < kanzure> most research seems to have stopped at kerf angles and curvatures and thickness, not considering any other sort of geometrical issues
12:53 < CIA-43> skdb:  * rbbd6086e2c7e /taxonomy.yaml: thread rolling
12:53 < genehacker2> I'm sure you could figure out some model of vibrations
12:54 < genehacker2> mechanical resonance causes fatigue related damage?
12:54 < fenn> genehacker2: no i'm talking about the dynamic damping of the machine frame
12:55 < genehacker2> there are models of it
12:55 < fenn> BRING THEM TO ME!
12:55 < fenn> ahem. sorry
12:55 < genehacker2> I can't
12:55 < genehacker2> I've got a test to study for
12:55 < fenn> where can i get some decent minions these days?
12:56 < genehacker2> just look up dynamic damping 
12:56 < genehacker2> I'll give you the fatigue formula later
12:56 < fenn> whatever. that's not important right now
12:57  * fenn files it under "simulation"
12:57 < genehacker2> it's related to the damage caused by resonance
12:57 < fenn> yes i know
12:57 < genehacker2> basically you need the max and min stress applied
12:57 < genehacker2> I can see why it'd be hard though
12:58 < kanzure> what does "process compatibility" even mean?
12:58 < fenn> it doesn't
12:58 < fenn> it's bullshit
12:58 < genehacker2> and it might get messy and really complicated very fast
12:59 < genehacker2> because of real parts varying from virtual  parts
13:01 < kanzure> think of it more as trying to figure out possible shapes and impossible shapes or possible shapes that can break the system
13:01 < genehacker2> like hollow spheres inside cubes?
13:03 < kanzure> maybe?
13:04 < CIA-43> skdb:  * rf6076333933f /doc/todo/presentation.txt: more
13:05 < kanzure> fenn: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VJD-40JG14K-5&_user=108429&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=967438330&_rerunOrigin=scholar.google&_acct=C000059713&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=108429&md5=990ce03f7786b0caa0678dd3a6360c49
13:05 < kanzure> "trajectory spacing"
13:07 < kanzure> it doesn't really talk about failure modes though
13:11 < kanzure> basically it's like "tool wear via trajectory"
13:11 < fenn> that paper sucks
13:12 < kanzure> didn't expect them to be not account for wear and failure modes
13:12 < fenn> i have a much better paper if you'd like; but it's 10MB
13:12 < fenn> on tub
13:12 < kanzure> on what?
13:12 < fenn> the computer
13:12 < fenn> martin held 1991 voronoi pocketing and other path planning for 2.5d pockets
13:14 < kanzure> "Estimation of tool wear in orthogonal cutting using finite element analysis"
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13:21 < kanzure> "wear maps"?
13:21 < kanzure> "The maps have demonstrated that tool wear rates vary with cutting speeds and feed rates used. "
13:21 < kanzure> they don't vary with workpiece geometry/shape?
13:21 < bzsmari> wow, that's insightful! :P
13:22 < bzsmari> I don't think the tool cares what the workpiece is shaped like
13:24 < kanzure> say you mill perpendicular to a surface/plane,
13:24 < kanzure> that will bust your drillbit
13:26 < fenn> breakage != wear
13:26 < bzsmari> you can make certain assumptions about geometry when testing wear rates...
13:32 < kanzure> you don't have to assume.. you have the geometry right in front of you
13:32 < kanzure> bzsmari: maybe fenn should explain
13:33  * fenn is trying to actually do something
13:34 < bzsmari> hehe
13:34 < bzsmari> don't worry about it
13:35 < kanzure> fenn: push?
13:40 < kanzure> bzsmari: do you have STEP documentation for Part 522 or Part 224?
13:40 < fenn> i wonder if this is the class i want: Geom2dInt_ExactIntersectionPointOfTheIntPCurvePCurveOfGInter
13:42 < kanzure> yay Thomas Kramer wrote some documentation for ISO 10303/224
13:42 < bzsmari> kanzure, which is?
13:43 < kanzure> how to do "tagging" of features in STEP files
13:43 < fenn> thomas kramer is my hero
13:43 < fenn> well, sort of
13:44 < fenn> he participated in the mess-making that was EMC1
13:44 < fenn> Geom2dGcc_Circ2dTan is what i want
13:45 < bzsmari> meh
13:45 < kanzure> "Len Slovensky" is the "owner" of STEP AP 224?
13:45 < fenn> there are step AP's for just about anything imaginable, and they all cost a fortune
13:45 < kanzure> hm it's more about particular things like boss, chamfer, circular_pattern, rather than generic tags 
13:46 < fenn> i dont think it's realistic to expect to be able to use any of them
13:46 < kanzure> so if this is not a "feature" then what is it?
13:46 < fenn> says 'machining features'
13:47 < kanzure> then what should I be looking for?
13:47 < fenn> ISO Standard 10303-224 "Application Protocol: Mechanical Product Definition for Process Planning Using Machining Features."
13:47 < kanzure> "how to use random strings that represent features" ?
13:47 < fenn> instead of step files? well, keep in mind we dont have any files with feature information in them in the first place
13:47 < kanzure> no no no
13:48 < kanzure> my task is to figure out how to add a line to a STEP file to "label" something
13:48 < kanzure> without breaking the OCC loader
13:48 < fenn> i dont think you can do that
13:48 < kanzure> and something that OCC will load up correctly in some weird class I don't know about
13:48 < kanzure> why the hell not?
13:48 < kanzure> a label is a very simple concept
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13:48  * fenn looks for label classes in OCC
13:48 < kanzure> here we go:
13:48 < kanzure> http://www.opencascade.org/org/forum/thread_9885/
13:49 < kanzure> "But this is not true with the STEP format, when I load the STEP files I have, surfaces get no labels."
13:49 < kanzure> great no responses
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13:49 < kanzure> something to do with XDE
13:50 < fenn> Other kinds of data such as colors, validation properties, layers, names and the structure of assemblies can be read or written with the help of separate tools - STEPCAFControl_Reader and STEPCAFControl_Writer.
13:50 < kanzure> ah: http://www.opencascade.org/org/forum/thread_14829/
13:50 < fenn> that's from http://adl.serveftp.org/lab/opencascade/doc/Overview/whnjs.htm
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13:53 < fenn> so you could just give the relevant entities a name "INTERFACE(n)" where n is some integer
13:54 < fenn> d'oh:  The doc from re-read IGES file does contain names, from STEP - does not.
13:55 < kanzure> http://www.steptools.com/support/stdev_docs/roselib/roselib-5.html
14:01 < kanzure> blah
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14:15 < kanzure> this is ridiculous
14:16 < kanzure> in solidworks, you can add an annotation to a point or a polygon
14:16 < kanzure> but it doesn't warn you that this information is not going to be preserved in the STEP file
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14:27 < kanzure> http://dcom.arch.gatech.edu/cs6754/STEP Files/P204.pdf
14:27 < kanzure> http://dcom.arch.gatech.edu/cs6754/STEP Files/P205.pdf
14:27 < kanzure> http://dcom.arch.gatech.edu/cs6754/STEP Files/AIM238.pdf
14:33 < kanzure> #5020 = PROPERTY_DEFINITION('mass property', $, #290);
14:33 < kanzure> #5030 = PROPERTY_DEFINITION_REPRESENTATION(#5020, #5040);
14:33 < kanzure> #5040 = REPRESENTATION('property value', (#5060), #5050);
14:33 < kanzure> #5050 = REPRESENTATION_CONTEXT('', '');
14:33 < kanzure> #5060 = MEASURE_REPRESENTATION_ITEM('mass', MASS_MEASURE(3000), #5070);
14:33 < kanzure> #5070 =(NAMED_UNIT(*) MASS_UNIT() SI_UNIT($,.GRAM.));
14:41 < kanzure> um, what? http://adl.serveftp.org/lab/opencascade/doc/ReferenceDocumentation/DataExchange/html/classRWStepAP214__RWAutoDesignDateAndPersonAssignment.html
14:42 < kanzure> look at all this crap
14:42 < kanzure> http://adl.serveftp.org/lab/opencascade/doc/ReferenceDocumentation/DataExchange/html/classStepBasic__Person.html
14:42 < kanzure> why is OCC representing people :p
14:48 < kanzure> see #5040 aboe- there's this "string" in each STEP file line that is the first parameter to all of the functions (well, they aren't really functions I guess)
14:48 < kanzure> anyway, somehow, somewhere, OCC is reading in these strings.. right?
14:48 < kanzure> solidworks just places "None" for all of those values for some reason
14:48 < kanzure> even though I specifically annotated an object
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15:01 < kanzure> is this really so hard? saving an annotation in STEP?
15:04 < kanzure> what a piece of crap, AutoCAD can't import STEP
15:04 < kanzure> and Pro/E can't do any annotations
15:10 < fenn> hey i just spent an hour trying to add a key binding
15:10 < fenn> no beans
15:10 < fenn> i think you might be wasting your time with the annotation idea
15:19 < kanzure> no thanks to campbell
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15:39 < kanzure> fenn: push?
15:42 < kanzure> file system structure for python projects: http://andreasjacobsen.com/2008/10/10/27/
15:48 < kanzure> fenn: what about py.test? http://codespeak.net/py/dist/test/features.html#automatically-collects-and-executes-tests
15:48 < ybit-scanning> kanzure: who is http://github.com/epitron ?
15:48 < kanzure> quickstart: http://codespeak.net/py/dist/test/quickstart.html
15:48 < kanzure> ybit-scanning: guy with a hole in his head
15:48 < ybit-scanning> :P
15:49 < kanzure> seriously, a giant cyst
15:49 < fenn> how does py.test know the answers?
15:49 < kanzure> fenn: it's a tool for unit tests
15:49 < kanzure> you still write the unit tests
15:49 < kanzure> you put them in your source directories (where ever they might be)
15:49 < kanzure> then you run "py.test" from the shell
15:49 < kanzure> and it finds them and is happy
15:49 < fenn> finds what?
15:50 < kanzure> unit tests via files that are named either "test_*.py" or "*_test.py"
15:50 < fenn> but the tests aren't in the files
15:50 < ybit-scanning> so what is the cyst guy into? 
15:51 < kanzure> fenn: unit tests are in dot py files
15:51 < kanzure> ybit-scanning: he used to be in here
15:51 < kanzure> it runs dot py files
15:52 < kanzure> ybit-scanning: but he was kind of lame, in the end
15:53  * ybit-scanning is typing with one hand while holding the book to the scanner with the other. a frogpad, sub-vocal recognition software or some eeg setup would be nice to have right about now
15:53  * ybit-scanning doesn't recall an epitron
15:53 < kanzure> maybe he was before your time
15:53 < ybit-scanning> heh, could be
15:54 < ybit-scanning> think there were ~6-8 in here when i joined
15:56 -!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 26 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 26 normal]
15:58 < genehacker2> interesting
15:59 < genehacker2> oops
15:59 < genehacker2> though DNA origami required oligos 20-50 long
15:59 < genehacker2> but it requires thousands of them
15:59 < genehacker2> http://cadnano.org/intro.html
16:02 < kanzure> yes, DNA origami is long shit
16:03 < genehacker2> so what other chemicals do we need to make photolabile phosphoramidite
16:03 < genehacker2> s
16:06 < CIA-43> skdb:  * r26694b2e6b08 /paths.py: playing around with tangent circles; trying to make a valid path for bandsaw sweep. dont use
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17:48 < kanzure> some old GPL'd pascal sources for reading ldraw *.dat files (which define lego parts)
17:48 < kanzure> http://web.telia.com/~u16122953/ldlistsrc.zip
18:06 < kanzure> stalk: "Max Peysakhov"
18:09 < fenn> kanzure: go to /etc/network/interfaces and copypaste the section for eth0 but change s/eth0/eth0:1/
18:10 < fenn> and change the ip to
18:10 < fenn> too
18:11 < kanzure> http://web.archive.org/web/20050317000800/http://edge.mcs.drexel.edu/GICL/people/peysakhov/
18:11 < kanzure> "# This is my new project in automatic design generation for LEGO robots. It's not a real web page, but a file repository."
18:11 < kanzure> http://web.archive.org/web/20040531083618/edge.mcs.drexel.edu/GICL/people/peysakhov/LEGO_GA/Code/
18:32 < kanzure> someone should have asked me why I knew the name Max Peysakhov
18:33 < kanzure> see bryan@leibniz:~/manufacturing/national_design_repository/gicl.cs.drexel.edu/repository/data/repository/Lego/LEGO_GA/Docs
18:39 < fenn> lots more step files in /home/bryan/manufacturing/national_design_repository/gicl.cs.drexel.edu/repository/datasets/legos/
18:42 < kanzure> see GECCO_LegoGA_Poster.pdf
18:42 < kanzure> er, in the folder that I last linked to
18:43 < fenn> the peysakhov simulation looks like crap
18:43 < kanzure> simulation?
18:46 < kanzure> fenn: what do I do once I update /etc/network/interfaces ?
18:47 < kanzure> ifconfig eth1:1 up
18:47 < kanzure> "SIOCSIFFLAGS: Cannot assign requested address"
18:47 < fenn> ifconfig eth1:1 up 192.168.1.123
18:47 < kanzure> same thing
18:48 < kanzure> oh, nevermind
18:48 < fenn> sudo?
18:49 < kanzure> nah, I got it
18:49 < kanzure> was trying 192.168.1.99
18:55 < fenn> these lego .stp files aren't anatomically accurate
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18:58 < kanzure> fenn: what's wrong with them?
18:59 < fenn> some of the gears have elements just floating in space
18:59 < fenn> and they use a subtracted cylinder primitive in places instead of making slots or a subtracted cube
19:00 < fenn> the gears look wrong but i'm not sure exactly why
19:01 < kanzure> ah so the edges are either snaps or inserts, apparently. but that doesn't tell you which snap or which insert mate to use..
19:02 < fenn> eh?
19:02 < kanzure> house?
19:02  * fenn abandons futility
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19:05 < kanzure> hello smari
19:05 < fenn> what's iceland's unix TZ?
19:16 -!- bzsmari [n=smari@nmi-gw.eyjar.is] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
19:16 < smari_> fenn, UTC
19:16 < smari_> Not sure what that is in unix terms
19:16 -!- smari_ is now known as Smari
19:17 < wrldpc2> is there anyone else from Boston in here?
19:19 < Smari> Boston got destro... no wait, that was a novel.
19:22 < wrldpc2> It's your funeral, Smari.
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19:22 < Smari> Haha.
20:11 < kanzure> fenn: do you understand why the unittests don't run
20:11 < kanzure> they don't run because they are in unittests/
20:11 < fenn> ffs just put test.py back in the main dir and include whatever fucking files you want
20:12 < kanzure> I think you don't understand file system structures for python modules..
20:12 < fenn> skdb/test.py: import unittests; run_tests()
20:13 < kanzure> why is test.py in skdb/ ?
20:13 < kanzure> try this: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/aix/library/au-pythontesting2/
20:34 < Smari> I'm going to go nuts on the directory structure next time I have a moment to sit and focus.
20:35 < fenn> i think it's pretty good right now
20:35 < Smari> I've been actively thinking about the big picture of what we're doing all day. I drew diagrams. Managed to simplify a few things, draw logical connections, figure out a few structural points... most of it is the IIS/supply chain side of things..
20:35 < Smari> IIS = Industrial Information System
20:36 < Smari> fenn, it's horrible right now.
20:36 < fenn> ok, so my crap is all over skdb/
20:37 < Smari> fenn, there's no compartmentalization, no logical entry point, no obvious plan.. :)
20:37 < Smari> how do .yaml files, .py files and .dat files belong in the root?
20:37 < fenn> they don't
20:37 < Smari> exactly
20:38 < fenn> i don't like having a big "src" dir
20:38 < fenn> what's the point of that?
20:38 < kanzure> self.assertFalse(skdb.Unit('1') < skdb.Unit('-10'))
20:38 < kanzure> test_negative_cmp
20:39 < Smari> fenn, I'd at least like to separate data from code... and perhaps categorize code into different modules and apps.
20:40 < Smari> What parts are there exactly?
20:41 < kanzure> pymates, your fabmap thing, fablab job scheduling, toolpath swept volumes code, packages, 
20:41 < fenn> inventory, simulation, dependency resolution
20:41 < kanzure> simulation? 
20:41 < kanzure> fenn and I have different definitions of simulation
20:42 < kanzure> and neither of us are willing to budge :p
20:42 < kanzure> so we keep confusing each other
20:42 < fenn> hm. ok forget "simulation"
20:42 < kanzure> there's something that somewhat approximates SPICES in the repo
20:42 < fenn> whatever you call being able to predict information you don't have about an artifact based on data you do have
20:44 < CIA-43> skdb: kanzure * r706c12208368 / (units.py unittests/tests.py): fix unit tests and fix units module
20:44 < CIA-43> skdb: kanzure * r86bea97680c1 /paths.py: Merge branch 'master' of ssh://bryan@adl.serveftp.org/var/www/skdb
20:44 < Smari> hahaha
20:44 < Smari> I'm making a README file in the doc/ folder that will explain the directory structure
20:44 < Smari> Mind if I find shorthand to your names?
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20:44 < kanzure> Smari: pull before you commit
20:44 < Smari> yes
20:44 < kanzure> don't be like me :(
20:45 < Smari> Like "fablab job scheduling" becomes "scheduling"
20:45 < kanzure> what?
20:45 < Smari> "toolpath swept volumes code" becomes "toolpaths"
20:45 < kanzure> Smari: I'm not sure you know the project entirely yet
20:45 < fenn> sounds fine to me
20:45 < kanzure> but you might, and I could be very wrong
20:45 < fenn> kanzure always makes excessively verbose names
20:45 < Smari> kanzure, I understand it to a fairly reasonable degree
20:45 < kanzure> okay
20:46 < kanzure> also there's 'pymates' :)
20:46 < Smari> I don't understand everything that's under the hood in your code...
20:46 < Smari> is it okay to call it 'mating' ?
20:46 < kanzure> no, the folder name is 'pymates'
20:46 < Smari> it sounds more kinky...
20:46 < kanzure> but you could just reference the actual folder
20:47 < Smari> I'm talking about moving things and renaming them so that it'll be easy to navigate through the swaths of code...
20:47 < Smari> that will be there :)
20:47 < kanzure> how about you just ask us what you should write?
20:47 < Smari> Uhm
20:47 < kanzure> :p
20:47 < fenn> i didnt realize we had gotten to the point where we need a readme already
20:47 < Smari> Because I'm going to write what I bloody well feel like writing :)
20:48 < kanzure> but you just admitted you don't know what's what
20:48 < fenn> if it's wrong i'll fix it
20:48 < kanzure> okay
20:48 < Smari> *sigh*
20:48 < fenn> keep up the good work smari
20:48 < Smari> fenn, is that a joke?
20:48 < kanzure> ..
20:48 < kanzure> now I'm not sure
20:49 < fenn> yes it was a joke.
20:49 < fenn> wait, now i'm not sure
20:49 < fenn> no offense intended
20:49 < kanzure> which does "no offense intended" evaluate to? joking or not joking?
20:49 < fenn> now i dont know how to resolve this at all
20:49 < kanzure> quick, to skdb/dep/ !
20:51 < CIA-43> skdb: kanzure * re3c014c8e0f4 /dep/dependency.py: removed dependency.py, should write a unit test
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20:53 < kanzure> someone kick me in the ass to write some unit tests for skdb/dep/
20:53 < kanzure> oh there are some tests in there already
20:53 < kanzure> bah
20:59 < CIA-43> skdb: kanzure * r748bbc014105 /dep/ (dep.py test_dep.py): dependency resolver unit tests moved about
21:01 < Smari> Annoying. Bah. Good night.
21:01 < kanzure> what?
21:01 < kanzure> aren't you going to push?
21:01 < Smari> nah
21:02 < kanzure> hm. I wonder why running "py.test" in skdb/dep doesn't produce any print statements..
21:02 < kanzure> but running "python test_dep.py" does
21:03 < kanzure> what the devil is py.test --looponfail for?
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21:03 < kanzure> ah, -s
21:04 < kanzure> py.test -v -s --debug
21:04 < fenn> what's -s?
21:04 < kanzure> apparently it automagically catches stdout and stderr "for your convenience"
21:04 < kanzure> -s makes it not do that
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21:08 < kanzure> phineas ghage
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21:34 < ybit> argh, friends want me to hang out
21:35 < ybit> how do you do it guys? how do you balance social life and me-time/workingArseOff4fun
21:35 < kanzure> what is social life?
21:35 < ybit> ideally, my friends would want to work on the same projects, maybe weld something, make some metal, something fun
21:35 < kanzure> get some better friends
21:35 < ybit> instead it's always getting high or drunk :-\
21:36 < ybit> yeah..
21:36 < kanzure> if they don't come back with sunburns from arc welding,
21:36 < kanzure> drop them
21:39 < ybit> :)
21:40 < fenn> does that mean i should wear sunscreen next time?
21:40 < ybit> heh, would that actually work?
21:41  * ybit maintained his vampire tan even while in sun for 10+ hours the other day
21:41 < ybit> 100spf sunscreen was generously applied ever hour
21:43 < genehacker2> http://www.ballsemi.com/tech/index.html
21:43 < genehacker2> check it out
21:43 < genehacker2> silicon chips that are balls
21:43 < genehacker2> company is dead though
21:49 < genehacker2> might be useful if they could have found a way to put a tiny power source inside ball and made some claytronics
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22:00 < kanzure> is there a standard way of expressing algebraic symbolic operator tree thingies?
22:00 < kanzure> er.. do these have a common name in programming?
22:01 < kanzure> symbolic expression trees?
22:01 < genehacker2> unicode?
22:01 < genehacker2> try the unicode tables
22:01 < fenn> kanzure: lisp
22:05 < kanzure> no
22:05 < kanzure> you're both wrong
22:05 < kanzure> go away and fetch me chocolate
22:10 < kanzure> parse trees?
22:11 < kanzure> http://effbot.org/zone/simple-top-down-parsing.htm
22:11 < kanzure> gah
22:11  * kanzure doesn't want to have to write a parser
22:11 < fenn> what was wrong with lisp?
22:11 < kanzure> I'm using python
22:11 < kanzure> go away
22:12 < kanzure> can anyone explain Gundam 00 to me?
22:12 < genehacker2> are you watching gundam and programming?
22:12 < kanzure> yes
22:13 < genehacker2> http://sciencelinks.jp/content/view/749/282/
22:14 < genehacker2> in order to make a gundam, we'd have to invent some new really lightweight materials
22:14 < genehacker2> Issue 1: Mass is a major issue as Gundam is slim but would still weigh several hundreds tons if normally manufactured. Its legs are slender: Slender legs are preferable in ensuring control. However, they would result in a lot of pressure being applied to the soles of the feet. Roads and the ground could not withstand the pressure applied from that weight and the body would sink into the ground. 
22:17 < genehacker2> I wonder if carbon nanotube microtrusses would do the trick...
22:20 < fenn> how about ... Gundanium alloy?
22:21 < fenn> and you could power it with a GM particle reactor
22:22 < genehacker2> a GM particle reactor?
22:22 < genehacker2> I thought they used minovsky physics or something like that
22:23 < fenn> GM is a special type of minovsky particle
22:23 < genehacker2> oh ok
22:23 < genehacker2> how about a plasmak?
22:23 < genehacker2> it's real
22:23 < fenn> O RLY
22:23 < genehacker2> it just hasn't been tested for fusion yet
22:24 < genehacker2> the plasma ball doesn't touch the walls of the containment vessel
22:25 < genehacker2> the plasma ball is also stable enough to last a couple seconds at room temperature pressure
22:25 < genehacker2> but in order to do fusion with it
22:25 < genehacker2> you have to put inside an ULTRA-CANNING machine
22:25 < genehacker2> IE a device that generates really really high pressure
22:27 < fenn> uh.. i dont think you know what you're talking about
22:34 < genehacker2> they use devices that generate really high pressures in the food industry
22:34 < genehacker2> forget it
22:35 < ybit> transformers any good?
22:35 < ybit> thinking of playing it in the background
22:36  * ybit wants some mindless sci-fi movie playing in the background
22:36 < ybit> star trek needs to get on dvd
22:36 < ybit> so i can torrent it..
22:37 < genehacker2> transformers good?
22:38 < genehacker2> no they're horrible
22:38 < ybit> perfect
22:38 < genehacker2> they dissipate quite a bit of energy as heat
22:38 < genehacker2> my laptop power brick gets hot enough to almost burn me
22:39 < genehacker2> but if you were refering to the movie I heard it's pretty bad
22:39 < flazmot> i torrented a raelly good screener of star trek
22:39 < flazmot> only the sound was a little crunchy somteimes
22:39 < flazmot> but basically you couldnt tell
22:39 < flazmot> also you couldnt quite see the whole screen
22:40 < flazmot> too bad they don't still have intermission breaks for snacks or you'd know for sure it was a screener when the dancing concession stand snacks showed up
23:03 < kanzure> what is a screener?
23:05 < CIA-43> skdb: kanzure * r1ef3ac63f63e /dep/test_dep.py: some ideas for tests for the dependency module
23:07 < ybit> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=screener
23:08  * ybit wonders what eric is doing now to start the international open space initiative
23:09 < kanzure> ybit: writing
23:09 < CIA-43> skdb: kanzure * r77027a30d718 /doc/todo/pymates-todo: further notes on what to do next with pymates
23:10 < kanzure> I wish there was some device that gave me an electric shock every time I make a commit
23:10 < kanzure> so that I would be tempted to not commit as frequently as I do
23:10 < ybit> :P
23:11 < ybit> geometry constraints language, ever find one? [kanzure]?
23:11 < kanzure> that's more fenn than for me at the moment
23:11 < kanzure> and the answer is no
23:11 < kanzure> ybit: check skdb/doc/todo/process-constraints.txt for some notes on that
23:12 < kanzure> er, sorry
23:12 < kanzure> skdb/doc/todo/process-constraints-notes.txt
23:16 < ybit> here's a preview of my projects todo
23:16 < ybit> * Projects
23:16 < ybit> ** TODO Massive Communication Matrix
23:16 < ybit> ** TODO Autoscholar
23:16 < ybit> ** TODO djangit/co.de/heath.im
23:16 < ybit> ** TODO skdb
23:16 < ybit> ** TODO djangit/toolbook/freefab.org & diysci/htmcie.org & openmanufacturing.org
23:16 < ybit> ** TODO AR
23:16 < ybit> ** TODO welder from microwave
23:16 < ybit> ** TODO microfluidics
23:17 < ybit> *** t-shirt press
23:17 < ybit> *** laser scanner
23:17 < ybit> plan on using djangit on my own servers
23:17 < ybit> as well
23:17 < kanzure> autoscholar has been renamed to pyscholar and now has some terrible new code
23:17 < kanzure> http://github.com/kanzure/pyscholar
23:17 < ybit> right right
23:17 < ybit> just haven't renamed it
23:18 < kanzure>  Open-source (and open hardware) Arduino-based telemetry and instrumentation module for amateur rocketry 
23:18 < kanzure> http://github.com/lukeweston/artemis/
23:18 < ybit> nice
23:22 < kanzure> fenn: should the unit tests for skdb/dep/ attempt to act like they are supposed to work for the dependency information in skdb/packages/screw/metadata.yaml ?
23:23 < kanzure> at the moment I don't have anything that does anything interesting with the "or" and "and" structure of that dependency outline (although it would be nice if there was something, but I don't know what that something should be at the moment)
23:24  * kanzure sleeps
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23:27 < kanzure> good code for reading: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=327710
23:28 < kanzure> huh wonder when this popped up http://pyblosxom.sourceforge.net/
23:29  * kanzure linked over to the perl version (blosxom) the other day
23:30 < kanzure> python module of the week - http://www.doughellmann.com/PyMOTW/contents.html
23:55 < fenn> ybit: welder from microwave is harder than it sounds.. at least I could never get it to work
23:55 < fenn> considering you can now buy a crappy mig welder for $100 i'm not sure it makes sense to build one