--- Day changed Sat Nov 14 2009
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01:25 < kanzure> ybit: it's on the google group
01:25 < kanzure> oh right, they're evil
01:25 < kanzure> um
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09:18 < fenn> this might explain why steve jackson was "turned off" towards computers and stuff (longish): http://pastebin.ca/1671193
09:33 < kanzure> hey how do you set stickybit?
09:41 < fenn> you probably want setuid, not stickybit
09:42 < fenn> chmod +t or +s
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12:00 < ybit> was attempting to update skdb earlier...
12:00 < ybit> error: Entry 'thirdparty/graphsynth.py' not uptodate. Cannot merge.
12:00 < ybit> the solution isn't immediately obvious to me
12:06 < fenn> you must have modified graphsynth.py
12:06 < fenn> try 'git status'
12:07 < fenn> or 'git reset thirdparty/graphsynth.py'
12:08 < fenn> or maybe you need to push your changes
12:33 < danielfalck> fenn: do you have a document that gives an overview of the project here?
12:33 < kanzure> http://adl.serveftp.org/dokuwiki/skdb
12:35 < danielfalck> kanzure: thanks- I should have looked at topic
12:35 < kanzure> am very busy
12:43 < ybit> git stash helps 
12:44 < ybit> there were changes to web.py, but they certainly aren't ready to be pushed
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14:29 < fenn> kanzure: at some point please read http://www.paulgraham.com/head.html
14:29 < fenn> we've been failing at #7
14:29 < fenn> (Don't have multiple people editing the same piece of code.)
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16:08 < ybit> the recommended hotel's price has gone up
16:09 < ybit> however, http://www.hotels.com/property.do?position=0&searchMtmPropertySupplierId=&propertyIdsToCompareString=&COMonth=12&PSRC=OT2&TSRC=1&numrooms=1&searchType=&usertypedcity=+Irvine%2C+CA&alternateSell=&acDestinationId=C05F04F7-EC8B-421C-B502-FE6419381D9F|65C29B93-B241-4EC8-8F1E-7830568B7EBE|Irvine%2C+CA%2C+USA|CITY&allPropertyTypesSelected=true&COYear=2009&CODay=7&paging=1&searchID=ABA8A1F3-89A2-3912-4F42-78DE8A90379C&CIYear=2009&mtnHotelID=281369&de
16:09 < ybit> $50/night
16:09 < ybit> jeremiah petit hasn't responded to my email from 4 days ago if he is still planning on going
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16:10 < ybit> so, be looking at spending $20/night
16:10 < ybit> oi tim__ 
16:10 < ybit> ~$80 total
16:11 < ybit> iow, when i get to austin, you two owe me $160 
16:12 < ybit> ..if that's the route ya want to go
16:12 < ybit> fenn, kanzure 
16:14 < ybit> decided yesterday the site needs a redesign if it's going to be a wiki, been toying with hatta today
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16:14 < ybit> http://ybit.ath.cx/images/website.png
16:14 < ybit> hi tim_ 
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17:55 < fenn> wow jaque fresco is awesome.. i've never really looked into it
17:58  * fenn is watching "venus on the edge" http://www.youtube.com/user/TZMOfficialChannel#p/c/F74192517271CC30
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18:19 < fenn> hello twish
18:20 < fenn> how did you happen to be here?
18:20 < twish> just surfing the web
18:20 < twish> ended up here
18:21 < twish> what is this place anyway?
18:22 < fenn> a place to bounce ideas around, i guess
18:22 < fenn> i am trying to bootstrap some of the automated manufacturing software necessary for stuff like the venus project
18:24 < fenn> automated anarchism, basically
18:25 < fenn> what topic were you surfing?
18:25 < nsh> we vomit futures onto the table of technology and then draw funny pictures with a fork
18:26 < fenn> body hacking? neuroscience? diy technology? futurism?
18:26 < twish> accually i stubled on some forum posts about the zeitgeist movement
18:26 < fenn> heh really?
18:26 < fenn> please link
18:27 < fenn> we dont talk about zeitgeist much
18:27 < twish> https://www.flashback.info/showthread.php?t=761534
18:28  * fenn is watching "venus on the edge" http://www.youtube.com/user/TZMOfficialChannel#p/c/F74192517271CC30
18:28 < nsh> heh
18:29 < nsh> google translate doesn't accept alternate ports
18:29 < fenn> 101 pages in that thread? wtf? how does anyone find anything?
18:29  * nsh hates reading through massive old threads
18:30 < nsh> things like that should be progressively synopsised
18:30 < nsh> then flattened
18:30 < fenn> i am hopeful for wave's ability to condense stuff into published documents (with retained history)
18:30 < twish> hehe , well the unemplyment is high in sweden. maybe thats something to do
18:30  * nsh smiles
18:30 < nsh> where isn't it?
18:31 < nsh> apparently Azerbaijan
18:31 < fenn> a lot of this is the same stuff bucky fuller was saying with 'design science revolution'
18:31 < nsh> where there is only 00.8% unemployment
18:32 < nsh> can you elaborate, fenn?
18:32 < twish> officially or for real?
18:32 < nsh> dunno, source is CIA factbook via wikipedia
18:32 < nsh> http://www.davemanuel.com/2009/07/15/which-countries-have-the-lowest-unemployment-rates/  says lowest two unemployment rates are in andorra and monaco
18:32 < fenn> basic human needs like water, food, shelter
18:33 < fenn> automation of factories and elimination of drudgery
18:33 < fenn> use of science toward creation of wealth instead of 'illth' like bombs
18:33 < fenn> s/science/technology/
18:34 < fenn> it's been a while so i can't just recite pages of text off the top of my head
18:34  * nsh nods
18:34 < nsh> too vague for my liking
18:34 < nsh> if you're gonna plan for the future, you need charts, not just a compass
18:35 < fenn> most people don't even know what the right direction is
18:35 < nsh> true
18:35 < nsh> but if you can tilt the landscape cleverly enough, they'll roll there whether they like it or not
18:36 < nsh> this is fascinating: http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2009-08/uocp-pcz081109.php
18:37 < nsh> (tl;dr - fungus turns ants into zombies with amazing precision, to make them die in a perfect place to infect more ants)
18:37 < twish> yeah .. they covered that on BBC:s "planet earth"
18:37 < fenn> actually the ants learned and drag the infected ants far away to die
18:37 < nsh> wow
18:38 < twish> that is really amazing
18:38 < nsh> just think how cool it'll be watching an evolutionary battle like that
18:38 < nsh> sped up so it's like a chess game
18:38 < fenn> there are lots of parasites like that; ie. a caterpillar parasite that makes it crawl to the top of the leaf to be eaten by birds, then the bird gets infected and spread the spores in its feces
18:39 < fenn> i bet there are human viruses like it too, something like the asherah virus in snow crash (makes you want to have unprotected sex or whatever)
18:39 < nsh> virus designers should spend more time watching nature documentaries
18:39 < nsh> or not...
18:39 < fenn> "virus designers"?
18:40 < nsh> people who write computer viruses, that is
18:40 < nsh> or replicative code in general
18:40 < fenn> i used to think maybe the HIV virus was designed by the government or whatever.. then i actually studied it at the codon level
18:40 < nsh> what changed your mind?
18:40 < fenn> it's way too subtle and hacky to be designed by a human
18:41 < fenn> some protein genes even code forward and backward for different proteins
18:41 < fenn> nfw that was created with 1970's computer tech
18:41  * nsh nods
18:42 < nsh> hmm
18:42 < fenn> i love the bbc earth documentary
18:42  * nsh notes to watch it
18:42 < fenn> there is something called 'sunrise earth' which is just a solid hour of nothing happening in gorgeous locations
18:43 < fenn> bbc earth is on youtube i think
18:44 < nsh> nice
18:44 < nsh> of course, nothing happening is very subjective to human perception
18:44 < nsh> which is probably part of the point
18:45 < nsh> second to the beauty
18:45 < fenn> right, actually tons of detail is happening onscreen but it's impossible to describe
18:46 < nsh> mmm
18:47 < nsh> i wonder if it would seem really busy if you were raised to speak a language suited to that description 
18:47 < fenn> here is an 'episode summary' if you can stand to read it http://pastebin.ca/1671690
18:47 < fenn> (yes i wrote that)
18:48 < nsh> heh, thanks :-)
18:48 < fenn> that is 'playa moonset' or something like that
18:48 < nsh> impressive recall...
18:49 < fenn> i make a habit of writing down my dreams
18:49 < fenn> felt similar
18:49  * nsh really needs to start doing that (again)
18:49 < nsh> the problem, at least for me, is that it's very hard to assess the fidelity of the recollection
18:49 < nsh> i'm never sure what i'm remembering, and what i'm elaborating into the memory
18:50 < nsh> which is ironic, because dreams are probably exactly that -- filling in the gaps between random activations
18:52 < fenn> i guess
18:52 < fenn> some dreams are much more coherent than others
18:52 < nsh> yeah, there appears to be a spectrum of lucidity
18:52 < nsh> (i wonder if there are gaps...)
18:53 < nsh> it's plausible that with training, you could selectively attenuate different faculties
18:54 < nsh> i wonder about the people who have had success with 360 degree vision, etc.
18:55 < nsh> what's the geometry of that?
18:56  * fenn points at http://fennetic.net/dreams/
18:56  * nsh checks
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18:57 < fenn> man i don't even remember writing half of these
18:57 < nsh> hah
18:57 < nsh> http://fennetic.net/dreams/cornworm  -- disturbing...
18:58 < fenn> yeah that was a couple days ago
18:58 < fenn> i should probably draw it before i forget
19:00 < nsh> what do you use a CMM probe for?
19:01 < fenn> making sure your part is machined to spec
19:01 < fenn> is the bore perpendicular, is this edge 2.961 inches from the other
19:01 < nsh> right
19:01 < fenn> is there a dream about that?
19:02 < nsh> you mention it in passing in http://fennetic.net/dreams/random
19:04 < fenn> scotty turner really is a psycho and would ram a cement truck if it was in his way
19:05 < nsh> always fun knowing people like that
19:05 < genehacker> do you log all your dreams fenn?
19:06 < nsh> heh, i cant imagine an ugly mushroom cloud
19:07 < fenn> genehacker: no only when i am not distracted after waking up, and if the dream doesn't totally suck, and if i have the energy to write it down
19:07 < fenn> so most of them don't make it
19:08 < fenn> like today i had some dream about a bus being stopped because a power line was down, and having to hop off an escalator halfway to get to my math class
19:08 < fenn> but i didn't feel like writing it down and forgot
19:08 < genehacker> damn I think I had a pretty epic one
19:08 < nsh> i wonder if there is are any good papers that go into why dream memories are so evanescent
19:10 < fenn> because otherwise we'd go insane with positive feedback loops?
19:10 < fenn> "i keep having a dream about last night's dream!"
19:11 < nsh> good point
19:11 < genehacker> well there's a theory that we aren't getting enough sleep
19:11 < nsh> i should have said "how" rather than "why"
19:12 < genehacker> and that the real amount is 14 hours not 8 hours
19:12 < nsh> heh
19:12 < fenn> 'the real amount'?
19:12 < genehacker> yeah 
19:12 < fenn> why don't you just sleep whenever you want to?
19:12 < fenn> ffs what is wrong with everyone
19:13 < nsh> jobs and education and crap
19:13  * nsh muses
19:13 < genehacker> people in a study that forced people into the same circadian rhythms that would be experienced before artificial lighting reported experiencing some pretty damn vivid dreams
19:14 < fenn> i experienced some pretty damn vivid dreams after eating (not unreasonably) large amounts of unfiltered red palm oil
19:14 < nsh> artificial light probably wreaks havoc with melanin levels
19:14 < nsh> hmm
19:15 < genehacker> dammit let me find the source
19:15 < fenn> i think i am immune to light, unfortunately
19:15 < genehacker> anyway we don't really have time for this sort of thing
19:15 < genehacker> it'd slow things down a lot
19:15 < nsh> meh, most of the economy is busywork
19:16 < fenn> we don't have time to sleep?
19:16 < genehacker> which is why we should replace people with robots
19:16 < fenn> what is the point of living?
19:16 < genehacker> I don't
19:16 < fenn> right well, i suppose your robots won't have enough time to defrag their hard disk or whatever either
19:17 < fenn> and then everything will happen instantly and it will be the end of the universe
19:17 < fenn> oh sorry i left out the bit where they invent a time machine
19:17 < genehacker> we'll just go to another one
19:18 < nsh> i had a strange idea the other day
19:18 < nsh> i was thinking about things happening in one time having "ripple down" effects on events in another time
19:18 < genehacker> or survive until the next big bang occurs
19:19 < nsh> like how we imagine it works when you go back in time and change something
19:19 < genehacker> look up closed timelike curves
19:19 < nsh> the future gets rewritten
19:19 < nsh> then i thought, what if all times are happening simultaneously
19:19 < nsh> like the hilbert hotel 
19:20 < nsh> but each room is a "now", say for example, 2009, 2008, 2007 (but really it'd be continuous)
19:20 < nsh> and what's going on in the '09 earth can affect (on some archetypal level) events in the '07 earth, etc.
19:20 < fenn> you mean we only experience one causal domain?
19:21 < nsh> right, but with a continua of 'present's for each moment in what we understand as linear time
19:21 < fenn> but many could be happening (i.e. future prime 21789 where the polar bear decided to go left this time)
19:21 < genehacker> arrow of time paradox has been resolved
19:21 < nsh> kinda like how phil dick thought the present day was actually 32ad
19:21 < genehacker> it's because we can't see negative entropic events
19:21 < nsh> but it's really "everywhen"
19:21 < fenn> nsh did you ever read Anathem?
19:22 < nsh> i don't think so
19:22 < fenn> there is something like that, funny games with causality between different universes
19:22 < genehacker> you read anathem?
19:22  * nsh hoovers it up from undernet
19:22 < fenn> i can post a text file, onemoment
19:22 < genehacker> have you read snow crash and diamond age?
19:23 < fenn>  bmy upload is so slow
19:23 < nsh> it's alright, fenn, html version 5.0 on its way
19:23 < fenn> ok nevermind then
19:23 < nsh> undernet#bookz is really good for sci-fi
19:24 < fenn> is that where it is now? is majecki there?
19:24 < nsh> yeah
19:24 < fenn> cool
19:24 < nsh> (though not at the moment, it seems. but definitely a little while back)
19:24 < genehacker> you did read snow crash right?
19:25 < fenn> yes
19:25 < genehacker> good
19:25  * nsh might just do a stephenson month for december
19:26 < fenn> lately i only seem to enjoy scifi written after 2000
19:26 < nsh> yeah, i've been noticing that effect with a lot of things i research
19:26 < nsh> it's like i'm subconsciously jettisoning the last millenia
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19:27 < nsh> which is risky, because a lot things get left behind
19:27 < nsh> though i'd guess nowadays the proportion is diminishing
19:27 < fenn> 'ventus' by karl schroeder is good: http://www.kschroeder.com/my-books/ventus/free-ebook-version
19:27 < nsh> probably exponential, as everyone's writing about everything
19:28 < nsh> i'm reading Vellum, by Hal Duncan
19:28 < nsh> it's tough work, but pretty beautiful at points, which a strong premise
19:28 < nsh> *with
19:28 < nsh> (and also what inspired that simultaneous timelines idea above)
19:33 < fenn> genehacker: if you've read both of them: http://fennetic.net/misc/diamond_age_vs_golden_compass
19:35 < genehacker> hahaha
19:36 < genehacker> never read golden compass though
19:36 < genehacker> diamond age makes a heck of a lot more sense
19:36 < fenn> they are practically the same book
19:36 < genehacker> what about the matter compilers?
19:36 < genehacker> I'm pretty sure golden compass doesn't have that
19:37 < fenn> no, they don't really explain where stuff comes from
19:39 < genehacker> so most nanoscientists don't either
19:42 < fenn> god did it
19:43 < genehacker> what about the industrial espionage stuff and references to fu manchu style victorian literature?
19:46 < genehacker> don't really care though
19:51 < fenn> there's lots of victorian stuff
20:08 < fenn> fresco's buildings remind me of the desals in Ventus
20:08 < fenn> (not like anybody cares)
20:10 < genehacker> the venus project guy?
20:10 < fenn> yeah. i guess you came in right after that conversation
20:10 < fenn> quitter
20:10 < genehacker> huh?
20:10  * fenn lurks
20:11 < genehacker> venus is project looks cool and that's all it is
20:11 < genehacker> no proposed way to get there
20:11 < fenn> it's not about architecture, if you listen to him talk
20:12 < genehacker> ugh
20:12 < genehacker> his talks circulate the internet like viruses
20:12 < fenn> it's about doing a do-ocracy, and basing your decision making processes on a rational basis and for the good of humanity, instead of money
20:12 < fenn> you haven't even watched any have you>
20:13 < genehacker> watched one
20:13  * fenn is watching http://www.youtube.com/user/TZMOfficialChannel#p/c/F74192517271CC30
20:13  * fenn apologizes for spamming the url
20:13 < genehacker> his followers could be useful to us
20:14 < fenn> he doesn't have 'followers' not really
20:14 < genehacker> I should have known
20:14 < fenn> he'll be dead soon anyway
20:14 < genehacker> the zeitgeist movement
20:14 < fenn> plz ignore the awful intro to that tv show
20:15 < fenn> zeitgeist is the community around venus project
20:15 < fenn> 'wtf am i supposed to do' basically
20:15 < genehacker> we might be able to wrangle some of his follwers into working for us
20:15 < genehacker> oh
20:15 < fenn> sure
20:15 < fenn> 'the venus project' is a terrible name
20:16 < genehacker> if you can set up a site for them to work that won't be associable with skdb then I can beign the wrangling process
20:16 < fenn> skdb is one of the enabling technologies, why should it be separate?
20:16 < genehacker> so people don't muck it up
20:17 < fenn> bryan is doing a good enough job already _-_
20:17 < genehacker> no
20:18 < genehacker> when you have something online that lots of people can edit/post to
20:18 < fenn> yes i understand
20:18 < genehacker> eventually someone will try to break it or worse
20:18 < fenn> this is what branches are for
20:19 < genehacker> branches
20:19 < fenn> alternate versions
20:19 < genehacker> anyway how do I write comments in .yaml?
20:19 < fenn> anyway there will be a "official repository" with cherrypicked changes
20:19 < fenn> # mark does comments
20:20 < genehacker> ok
20:20 < fenn> skdb can work with or without VP; but it can't work without something like skdb
20:20 < fenn> afaik nobody else is seriously working on anything similar
20:20 < fenn> except maybe smari
20:21 < fenn> hell even i haven't touched it in 2 months
20:21 < genehacker> I found some good techno so I'm in work mode
20:21 < fenn> i find music makes it hard to concentrate enough to write good code
20:22 < fenn> your process descriptions are too incomplete
20:22 < genehacker> how so?
20:22 < fenn> like wiredrawing.yaml doesn't have any tolerance specifications or surface finish or or or
20:22 < genehacker> I couldn't find it in my book
20:23 < fenn> um.. i forget where it went
20:23 < fenn> processes should have these as a minimum template: !process
20:23 < fenn>     name:
20:23 < fenn>     classification:
20:23 < fenn>     mechanism:
20:23 < fenn>     geometry:
20:23 < fenn>         tolerance:
20:23 < fenn>     surface finish:
20:23 < fenn>     consumables:
20:23 < fenn>     functionality:
20:23 < fenn>     parameters:
20:23 < fenn>     safety:
20:24 < genehacker> wiredrawing.yaml helped me on a quiz
20:24 < fenn> good
20:25 < fenn> i'm not sure how to automagically turn plain-text equations into functions
20:25 < genehacker> I'm not sure either
20:25 < fenn> right now i'm doing this thing with string substitute and then feed the constructed string to units, but that requires me to label all the variables and then stuff them
20:26 < fenn> i gues this would be some sort of 'factory class'
20:26 < genehacker> it'd also be better if I were to write the exact format the equations came in
20:26 < fenn> existing formats are probably going to be wrong
20:27 < fenn> all we need is something a regex can understand anyway
20:27 < genehacker> because it allows you to connect the equations with other equations for different similar processes
20:27 < fenn> hmm
20:27 < genehacker> there are certain relations that can be used among different deformation processes and stuff
20:28 < fenn> i think it's going to end up more complicated than that
20:28 < genehacker> let me send you an example
20:28 < fenn> everyone wants to use 'x' or 'gamma' too
20:28 < genehacker> IE my deformation processes equation cheat sheet
20:28 < fenn> i'm sure those scratchy hieroglyphics mean something to you
20:29 < fenn> but the important thing is to hook it into the rest of the code
20:29 < fenn> make the tacit knowledge explicit
20:29 < fenn> math hieroglyphics seems obvious to people who have been reading it constantly for years but there are a lot of ambiguities
20:30 < fenn> it doesn't have to be RDF but some kind of formalized explanation of th terms is required
20:30 < fenn> that's why i have a whole section for parameters
20:30 < genehacker> also many of these equations used are empirical relations
20:30 < genehacker> used to simplify things
20:30 < fenn> like somefunkyconstant*area?
20:31 < fenn> i dont understand how it could not be empirical
20:31 < fenn> unless it's a design rule or something, like 'metric screws come in these sizes'
20:31 < genehacker> you could use integrals to find true pressure on rolling
20:31 < genehacker> but most of the time you don't need to
20:32 < fenn> really?
20:32 < genehacker> yeah
20:32 < fenn> i mean you can calculate the exact force required?
20:32 < genehacker> I guess
20:32 < genehacker> you don't need to I think
20:33 < fenn> i'm mostly going to do curve fitting to table values anyway
20:33 < fenn> unless there is an obvious exact solution from first principles
20:33 < genehacker> figure out how to extract values from a graph and I'll give you a cookie
20:33 < genehacker> there are some relations that need data from graphs
20:33 < fenn> mechanical turk :P
20:34 < fenn> seriously machinery's handbook has just about everything in tables
20:34 < genehacker> everything
20:34 < genehacker> does it have Q_a for cylindrical upsetting?
20:35 < fenn> i don't know what your stupid letters mean
20:35 < genehacker> average pressure for upsetting of a cylinder
20:35 < fenn> but probably
20:35 < fenn> i dunno, look it up; do you have a copy?
20:37 < fenn> if you have access to adl.serveftp.org it's in /home/bryan/papers/machinery_handbook/
20:37 < fenn> 34MB
20:39 < katsmeow> it's a good book
20:39 < fenn> 'the machinist bible'
20:40 < fenn> pray to it five times a day facing the deckel mill
20:40 < fenn> (is my ignorance showing?)
20:41 < genehacker> could you give me a link to it?
20:41 < genehacker> is it as thick as a bible?
20:41 < katsmeow> not in bytes
20:41 < genehacker> if so I want to get a hardcopy
20:42 < genehacker> and use it to preach/troll the crazy people who preach on campus
20:43 < fenn> genehacker: http://adl.serveftp.org/papers/machinery_handbook/
20:43 < fenn> there is a condensed version that is bible sized
20:46  * nsh wonders what 34mb weighs
20:46 < nsh> (at minimum)
20:46 < genehacker> I already found it
20:47 < nsh> there was some article i read one about the minimum energy required to change one bit. i think the conclusion was that a super-efficient computer would be something like a star
20:47 < fenn> was that anders wallin?
20:47 < genehacker> anyway doesn't look like it has much in the way of deformation processes
20:47 < fenn> erm. anders sandberg?
20:47 < fenn> (too any anderses)
20:48  * nsh couldn't say, sorry
20:48 < nsh> i think it was in a semi-popular science magazine. perhaps UK new scientist
20:48 < fenn> this doesn't seem right
20:48 < fenn> Hardcover: 2704 pages Shipping Weight: 2.6 pounds
20:49 < genehacker> haha
20:49 < genehacker> meh
20:49 < fenn> a lot of those 34MB is graphs and diagrams
20:50 < nsh> 34Mb of just text would be a very long book
20:50 < genehacker> I think I like Introduction to Manufacturing Processes by John A. Schey, THE GREAT PROPHET OF MANUFACTURING
20:50 < fenn> pages and pages of random numbers perhaps
20:51 < genehacker> I am disappoint
20:51 < genehacker> it doesn't have bending limit relations that can be used for anything
20:51 < genehacker> just some tables of numbers for like 3 different metals
20:52 < fenn> genehacker: no actually that would be Henry Maudslay
20:52 < nsh> In [2]: 7.66 * 823156 / 1024 / 1024
20:52 < nsh> Out[2]: 6.0132741546630859
20:53 < fenn> relevance?
20:53 < genehacker> ok
20:53 < nsh> (average word length of king james bible times number of words in king james bible, in megabytes)
20:53 < nsh> so 34Mb would be about 6 bibles
20:53 < fenn> the pdf's are compressed
20:53 < nsh> ah
20:53 < nsh> i was thinking that was a bit low
20:54 < fenn> pdf's are stupidly inefficient usually though
20:55 < nsh> i've always wondered about that
20:55 < fenn> i think it specifies the position of each line or text or something
20:55 < genehacker> ok
20:55 < nsh> lzma is probably best for text
20:55 < genehacker> machinery handbook is awesome
20:55 < nsh> not sure about images in pdfs
20:56 < fenn> lzma is the .gz algorithm?
20:56 < nsh> iirc yeah
20:56 < nsh> no, wait
20:56 < fenn> .bz2 is better and supposedly .rar is even better (but i dont see much difference)
20:57 < nsh> gzip uses DEFLATE
20:57 < genehacker> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Machinerysencyclopedia.jpg
20:57 < fenn> and there is some other algorithm which isn't used much in practice because it takes too much ram
20:57 < genehacker> it's not a handbook
20:57 < fenn> "Gzip  reduces  the  size  of  the  named  files using Lempel-Ziv coding"
21:00 < fenn> "As of 2008, the most popular LZ77 based compression method is called DEFLATE; it combines LZ77 with Huffman coding."
21:00 < fenn> so it's all the same thing
21:00 < fenn> kind of disgusting people are still using software from 1977
21:01 < nsh> http://odzangba.wordpress.com/2009/03/25/gzip-vs-bzip2-vs-lzma/
21:01 < nsh> lzma is Limpel-Ziv with markov chains
21:01 < fenn> is it different from lz77?
21:02 < nsh> yeah, it's 1998 onwards
21:02 < nsh> that last link puts it between gzip and bz2 in both time and compression ratio
21:02 < fenn> well that's useless
21:03 < fenn> he's compressing a bunch of zeroes?
21:03 < nsh> yeah, i didn't see the point of that either
21:03 < nsh> more sensible tests follow
21:05 < fenn> hardly
21:05 < fenn> compressing a .avi is stupid
21:06 < fenn> you save <1%
21:06  * nsh nods
21:06 < nsh> do you say "dot a v i"?
21:06 < fenn> yes
21:06 < nsh> suppose that makes sense
21:07 < nsh> i'd just say "an a v i"
21:07 < nsh> perhaps i revise that.
21:07 < nsh> actually, that's because i'd append "file"
21:07 < nsh> i think i would prefix with 'dot' if i didn't. 
21:08 < nsh> (trivum, sorry)
21:26 < genehacker> a prospect mind has been found, evaluation process has begun
21:27 < fenn> i think the equation wrangling would be done something like this http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Python_Programming/MetaClasses
21:27 < genehacker> ok
21:28 < genehacker> so do my yaml's have worth or should I discontinue making them?
21:28 < fenn> i don't know
21:29 < fenn> honestly this is all turning out to be a lot harder than expected
21:29 < fenn> data entry takes forever and still dont eve know what the right format is
21:29 < fenn> so if you can enter good data that would help
21:30 < fenn> but i will have to recombobulate the data at some point so the more there is, the harder that will be
21:30 < fenn> hopefully easier than typing it in manually though
21:30 < fenn> the big problem is when you have concepts that are not semantically equivalent
21:31 < fenn> like 'machinability'
21:31 < fenn> god damn subjective crap
21:31 < genehacker> machinability
21:31 < genehacker> there's a way to quantify that I think
21:31 < fenn> in what units
21:31 < fenn> it's always relative
21:31 < genehacker> meters
21:32 < fenn> even material hardness is a clusterfuck
21:32 < genehacker> haha
21:32 < genehacker> oh I know
21:32 < genehacker> letters
21:32 < fenn> all these different scales, none of them with easy conversion factors
21:32 < genehacker> A, B, C, D
21:32 < genehacker> let me check my notes
21:32 < genehacker> machinability has something to do with chip length
21:32 < fenn> the scales are basically just empirical test procedures
21:32 < fenn> machinability is a lot of factors
21:33 < fenn> hardness, chip length, built up edge, toughness, heat dissipation
21:33 < genehacker> ok listening to a jaque fresco thing
21:33 < fenn> built up edge has something to do with the chemical interaction with the tool material
21:34 < genehacker> tool life can be estimated with a simple formula
21:35 < fenn> bah
21:35 < fenn> you and your simple formulas
21:35 < genehacker> there
21:35 < genehacker>  is a better one though
21:35 < fenn> there are a lot of factors that go into tool life; a simple formula can't express that
21:36 < fenn> it includes: thermal shock, number of heating/cooling cycles, tool surface finish, cutting forces, resonance phenomena, and on and on
21:36 < genehacker> it depends on how accurate you want to estimate tool life too
21:37 < fenn> it almost doesn't matter, it's so easy to break a tool with any one of those
21:37 < genehacker> are we trying to make a high speed machining center
21:37 < fenn> i just want the estimate to be right
21:37 < genehacker> because that's only where it matters
21:37 < fenn> bullshit
21:38 < fenn> chatter will destroy a tool at any speed
21:38 < fenn> high carbon steel with carbide cutters and water based coolant will destroy a bit
21:39 < fenn> HSM is just a strategy
21:39 < fenn> it's not even a well defined term
21:39 < genehacker> I think I'm going to go away and read the section of my materials processing book on machining
21:39 < fenn> i consider it machine accelerations > 1g
21:39 < genehacker> surface finish is also not a very well defined term
21:39 < fenn> i guess
21:39 < genehacker> no
21:40 < fenn> there are ways to define surface finish mathematically
21:40 < fenn> but sometimes it just means 'aesthetics' you're right
21:40 < genehacker> how?
21:40 < genehacker> no I'm talking about the different ways to quantify it
21:40 < fenn> well.. one way would be a frequency spectrum (in the position domain)
21:41 < fenn> often they just assume a single frequency and give the RMS amplitude
21:41 -!- mason_l [n=x@202-89-188-136.static.dsl.amnet.net.au] has joined #hplusroadmap
21:41 < genehacker> ok
21:41 < genehacker> that's what I'm talking about
21:41 < fenn> is it amplitude or wavelength? i dunno
21:42 < fenn> must be amplitude
21:43 < fenn> i'm kind of annoyed they don't provide the error rates in different dimensions (i.e. radius vs length on a lathe) but i wouldn't know how to generically describe that anyway
21:43 -!- mason-l [n=x@202-89-188-136.static.dsl.amnet.net.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
21:43 < fenn> something like GD&T but i also need to be able to apply that to some kind of geometry description language
21:44 < fenn> um.. like 'a bandsaw always cuts perpendicular to the sliding surface and has moves with a minimum radius'
21:45 < fenn> then you have tolerance wrt the path deviation, squareness, isotropic surface finish etc
21:45 < katsmeow> well, dependng on how square the teeth are sharpened, etc
21:45 < fenn> but there exists no general geometry description for stuff like 'this is perpendicular to that'
21:45 < fenn> katsmeow: yes and you use various parameters in your equations
21:46 < katsmeow> and i have seen bands with all the wave on one side
21:46 < fenn> cuts? or saw blades?
21:46 < katsmeow> bandsaw blades
21:46 < fenn> seems like that would rub on the side with no wave
21:47 < katsmeow> the cheaper the chinese blade, the more likely you get anomolies
21:47 < fenn> dont use cheap blades :P
21:47 < katsmeow> yeas, i threw it out
21:48 < fenn> i wish i had experienced an "expensive" $5 tap before i tortured myself with cheap taps
21:48 < fenn> hint: hardware store taps may be expensive but they still suck
21:48 < fenn> it was even a "good old boy" hardware store :(
21:49 < katsmeow> i had one blade, the teeth were offset ay the weld, so the first pass broke off one tooth, the next pass broke off the 2nd, till i had an inch of blade ith no teth real fast, tossed that one too
21:49 < katsmeow> hardware stores in general are to make money off retail customers, nothing else
21:50 < fenn> you can't generally buy individual bolts from catalogs
21:50 < katsmeow> i asked Fastenal to make a bid on some 1 gallon paint, they bid $70, it was at Home Depot for $28, and i paid $15 for it
21:51 < katsmeow> same for a chemical i wanted, same price spread
21:51 < katsmeow> and i wasn't buying a gallon, i bought 34 gallons
21:51 < fenn> fastenal is for other peoples' money
21:51 < katsmeow> and another 15 of roofing "paint"
21:52 < katsmeow> yeas, but they do have the bearings, drillbit, bolts i want *in stock* locally
21:54 -!- mason_l is now known as mason-l
22:29 < ybit> check out 1:10:28 - 1:1302 of http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3932487043163636261 it describes skdb
22:30 < ybit> fenn: you helped in distracting me tonight :P
22:30 < fenn> what is that video?
22:30 < fenn> the dow human element thing?
22:30 < ybit> the venis project introduction/overview
22:30 < ybit> venus*
22:31 < ybit> something like seasteading.org would be appropriate
22:31 < ybit> and public moon establishments/settlements
22:32 < ybit> anywhere that new forms of society can be constructed
22:33 < fenn> seasteading is too hard to get started with no existing community.. see luf for example
22:35 < fenn> 'integration of all known knowledge' makes it sound so easy :(
22:37 < fenn> this guy sounds like a computer
22:39 < ybit> 1:15:26 - 1:16:43 mentions their view of how to utilize a database system of knowledge
22:40 < fenn> a database doesn't analzye :(
22:41 < fenn> i dont like how he never discusses decision making processes
22:42 < genehacker> the austrailia project bears resemblence to the venus project, coincidence? I think not
22:43 < kanzure> so is this 3daystartup or 3daywankery?
22:43 < kanzure> man
22:44 < genehacker> having fun?
22:44 < kanzure> not really
22:45 < genehacker> how so?
22:49 < genehacker> what progress have you made so far?
22:49 < katsmeow> ybit, is seasteading.org going to DO anything?
22:49 < genehacker> have you talked to any gene synthesis companies?
22:51 < ybit> genehacker: they weren't able to understand the importance of it
22:52 < ybit> or its relevance to making $
22:52 < ybit> katsmeow: i don't know, i haven't looked into it yet
22:52 < katsmeow> o
22:53 < katsmeow> over the years they have cranked ot a lot of webpages, but zero hardware
22:53 < genehacker> as expected
22:53 < genehacker> it's run by business people doing important business things
22:53 < ybit> i just now brought it up, remembering that some speaker at the h+ summit was going to discuss it, so then i found the website and plan on viewing it later tonight
22:54 < genehacker> create competition? who'd want to do that?
22:54 < ybit> genehacker: yeah, i was thinking this is as well listening to jacque (or however you spell it) talk about
22:54 < ybit> that's exactly what i was thinking
22:54 < genehacker> heh
22:54 < ybit> they need to remove that
22:55 < ybit> er, was that referring to seasteading.org or 3ds?
22:55  * ybit was talking about the seasteading.org description
22:55 < ybit> competition in a future society doesn't make sense to me
22:56 < genehacker> 3day start up
22:56 < genehacker> oh
23:01 < fenn> rawr why don't they have a 'download in > 120pixel resolution' button
23:04 < kanzure> ybit: your server isn't on