--- Day changed Tue Dec 29 2009 00:00 < Aliks> yeah that too 00:00 < Aliks> kanzure, true 00:00 < randallagordon> I still can't get PythonOCC to play nice...but I haven't spent much time on it, either 00:00 < QuantumG> "wow, great invention, it's now secret, if you want to keep working on it you'll be doing it in the employ of the US gov, thanks" 00:00 < kanzure> randallagordon: do you know where you got stuck? 00:00 < Aliks> QuantumG, I wonder how many great things are locked away that way 00:01 < kanzure> missing words 00:01 < QuantumG> apparently most everything rocket related is 00:01 < Aliks> kanzure, have you thought about doing this with wood or other easily worked materials? 00:01 < Aliks> as opposed to metal? 00:01 < kanzure> doing what with wood? 00:01 < Aliks> SKDB 00:01 < kanzure> yes it's for all materials 00:01 < randallagordon> everything except pythonOCC appeared to install/compile properly...lemme fire up VirtualBox and see if I can't figure anything out 00:01 < Aliks> anything made mostly out of wood... chairs, beds, etc. 00:01 < kanzure> for instance, the legos in the repository are plastic 00:01 < kanzure> and the screws are cold rolled steel IIRC 00:01 * Aliks nods. 00:02 < QuantumG> sometimes things get declassified after 10 years of non-development and people are allowed to commercialize it though 00:02 < kanzure> there are no wood projects yet in there because i'm only one person 00:02 < kanzure> if you other lazy bums want to help out.. :) 00:02 < Aliks> haha 00:02 < Aliks> yeah 00:02 < kanzure> just saying 00:02 < Aliks> unfortunately I have too much on my plate already 00:02 < kanzure> fenn: are you awake yet. it's been 36 hours 00:02 < randallagordon> I'd be happy to, if I knew what I was doing, lol 00:02 < kanzure> randallagordon: http://designfiles.org/packages/lego/ it's really simple 00:02 < kanzure> just make a folder, and put some CAD models in there 00:02 < kanzure> (STEP or IGES models) 00:02 < kanzure> and then show it to me :p 00:03 < Aliks> QuantumG, my main concern with patents is they seem to work for the companies with lots of money, and not for individual inventors 00:03 < Aliks> like for example I'll be filing a patent pending later this month 00:03 < Aliks> or early next month I should say 00:03 < randallagordon> I've never done any CAD modeling 00:03 < Aliks> but odds are it's got some minor flaw in the wording 00:03 < Aliks> that will allow a million dollar corporate legal department to pick it apart 00:03 < kanzure> randallagordon: it can be fun when it's free. try this on for size: http://code.google.com/p/heekscad/ 00:03 < Aliks> and then patent their own version in the proper legal language, and prevent me from using my own idea 00:04 < Aliks> or at the very least avoid paying a dime in royalties 00:04 < randallagordon> *yoink* 00:04 < QuantumG> patents dont work for anything other than an extra bit of nonsense to convince an investor to give you money 00:04 < randallagordon> I've toyed with Sketchup a tiny amount, that's as close as I've come 00:04 < kanzure> randallagordon: avoid sketchup at all costs. when you make something in ketchup, it's locked in as a "mesh" and it's not "real" CAD 00:04 < Aliks> QuantumG, well they deter some of your smaller competitors, and it raises the cost of fucking you 00:05 < kanzure> Aliks: show me. 00:05 < Aliks> kanzure, ? 00:05 < kanzure> a case where little guys were kept out because they feared you or something 00:05 < Aliks> oh, its all anecdotal man lol 00:05 < Aliks> I dont store away the sites 00:05 < Aliks> just things that I've read, heard about, have been recommended to me 00:05 < Aliks> I claim no scientific proof lol 00:06 < randallagordon> kanzure, aye, I was using it to make some simple illustrations that didn't require any sort of precision 00:06 < kanzure> okie dokie 00:06 * kanzure sleeps 00:06 < kanzure> tomorrow, documentation will be available 00:06 < kanzure> i spent today making pretty LaTeX bullshit 00:10 < randallagordon> wait... 00:10 < randallagordon> I think it just worked 00:10 < randallagordon> I should get *nothing* upon issuing "import skdb" if it is working, correct? 00:12 < Aliks> lol I think that's the typical linux success message 00:12 < Aliks> is nothing 00:12 < Aliks> right? 00:12 < randallagordon> hehe, well I'm not getting an error about pythonOCC not being installed properly, anymore, so I take that as a good thing ;) 00:13 < Aliks> how often do you guys do those meetups? the conferences? 00:13 < ybit> kanzure: LaTeX is nice, but why not just html 00:13 < ybit> or text 00:14 * ybit rapes gnusha 00:17 < randallagordon> wow 00:17 * randallagordon is slightly disturbed. Only slightly. 00:18 < ybit> what? that i raped the skdb mascot? 00:18 < ybit> get used to it buddy 00:18 * randallagordon already is. 00:18 < Aliks> man, why must the government put so much data out as PDF? 00:19 * randallagordon gets over things quickly 00:19 < Aliks> is it INTENTIONALLY making it hard to tabulate the data? 00:19 < Aliks> fuck! 00:19 < Aliks> I need to get some Indians to do the data entry now 00:20 < ybit> someone want to help my lazy ass and write something for the bottom of http://openmanufacturing.org/ 00:20 < ybit> preferably not using the word 'lazy' or its derivatives so many times as 'lazy' is one of the main keywords now 00:20 < ybit> according to google 00:25 < randallagordon> haha, awesome 00:27 < randallagordon> hey, I think it did something useful... packages/lego/demo.py appears to have worked properly! 00:27 < randallagordon> "brick1's stud cup is compatible with: ['anti stud cup']" 00:31 < Aliks> I wish I could throw all this data into a database easily and call it up... but would take more time to organize it all and insert it than to just take the pieces I need... bah, inefficiency 00:31 < randallagordon> PDF certainly doesn't shine for transporting raw data... 00:33 < Aliks> and even tabular formats require a lot of massaging 00:33 < Aliks> like... it's not designed for database insertion 00:33 < Aliks> it's not obvious how to organize it in a way that would be easily computer usable 00:34 < randallagordon> wohoo, I've got a Lego model that I can spin around...this is apparently the greatest day of my life 00:36 < randallagordon> have you watched Hans Rosling's TED videos? 00:37 < randallagordon> that man's data visualization abilities makes my loins tingle 00:38 < Aliks> lol 00:39 < randallagordon> I'm rarely impressed with Flash...but this is an exception: http://www.innovid.com/ 00:39 < randallagordon> Although I'm immediately thinking through how it is possible to achive the same thing with HTML5's <video> element... 00:41 < ybit> congrats randallagordon 00:42 * randallagordon take a bow, astounded by his ability to follow instructions 00:44 < Aliks> finally, DNS propogated 00:48 < randallagordon> I'm curious if I might be able to get some feedback...recently I picked up forkcapitalism.com, I intend to use it as an outlet for discussing my ideas about how to practice capitalism ethically, taking into account physical, environmental and social value factors that go far beyond the "bottom line"... The name intendes to mean essentially what a software project fork is, branching off and doing things another way. 00:48 < randallagordon> The logo I've created I'm intending to show an "ending" of those old ways and a continual impovement using the new fork of ideas, thus the following logo: http://randallagordon.com/jing/2009-12-27_2152.png 00:48 < Aliks> not bad 00:49 < Aliks> I like it 00:49 < randallagordon> started here: http://randallagordon.com/jing/2009-12-26_1626.png 00:50 < randallagordon> http://randallagordon.com/jing/2009-12-27_1258.png 00:50 < randallagordon> http://randallagordon.com/jing/2009-12-27_1403.png 00:51 < randallagordon> I have a few variations created, as you can see, but the first link I think takes care of most of the "problems" 00:51 < randallagordon> Such as downward arrows having a negative connotation with relation to the dollar, but flipping the "fork" over creates, well, a pitchfork, or devil horns, heh 00:52 < randallagordon> in the end, I think removing the arrow point from the "original branch" had quite the impact on communicating meaning 00:53 < randallagordon> and now I feel like I'm rambling and will shut up 00:56 < Aliks> lol its ok I was just going back and forth on something else 00:57 < Aliks> I think this latest version is the best out of the 4 00:58 < randallagordon> 12-27_2152 is the "latest" as per the file timestamps, or are you refering to _1403, the latest I linked to? 00:59 < Aliks> first first you linked to 00:59 < Aliks> _2152 01:00 < randallagordon> cool 01:08 < Aliks> man, I dunno how much work I wanna put into this... gah it sucks having so much stuff that could be done... and it's all so inefficiently being distributed.. the workload that is 01:09 < randallagordon> this? 01:10 < randallagordon> oh, the data thing? what precisely are you doing? 01:11 < Aliks> well, my brain hasnt been working as well as usual, so I was trying to do something fairly mundane while it recovers lol... 01:11 < Aliks> trying to write an article called "understanding economic currents" 01:11 < Aliks> where I'm going to break down incomes, expenditures, etc. of both individuals and businesses in the US 01:11 < randallagordon> I enjoy the fact that you consider that mundane :) 01:11 < Aliks> and then create "personas" for each section of the economy 01:12 < Aliks> and then try to explain to college students, esp. business students, where money is flowing to and from 01:12 < Aliks> what kinds of goods are being purchased 01:12 < randallagordon> so what's your area of expertise? 01:12 < randallagordon> econ? 01:12 < Aliks> I'm kind of all over the place, mostly CS though 01:12 < Aliks> I've done a lot of philosophical/economic/political thinking as well 01:12 < Aliks> took about 2 years of business courses in college along with my other stuff 01:13 < Aliks> (and that's not where I did most of my thinking lol) 01:13 < Aliks> basically the idea is to help people get a grip on how the economy is working in reality... 01:13 < Aliks> who are their potential customers, employers, etc. 01:13 < Aliks> what kinds of products are people currently buying, which then indicates what sorts of needs/wants those people have 01:14 < Aliks> you can sort of infer what sort of innovations would work 01:14 < Aliks> and I'm going to try to explain that they should look at the underlying motivations, not what people are currently buying 01:14 < Aliks> like, the fact that people buy TP doesnt mean they want TP 01:14 < Aliks> if you invent a magic wand that cleans their ass, they'll buy that too 01:14 < Aliks> lol 01:14 < Aliks> anyway, thats the general idea 01:15 < Aliks> I got tired of dealing with business students who are totally clueless about how the market really works 01:15 < Aliks> have no idea what product to make, what to do, etc. 01:16 < randallagordon> I dig 01:17 < randallagordon> sounds like I need to keep a close eye on your writing...do you publish it publicly anywhere? 01:17 -!- flamt_ [n=root@bas2-barrie18-1176374559.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #hplusroadmap 01:18 < Aliks> I will be yeah 01:18 < Aliks> I need to reorganize my past writing 01:18 < Aliks> I dont get to do enough anymore.. I stay too busy 01:19 < Aliks> I just dont have enough hands... I'm sure you know the feeling 01:19 < genehacker> http://blog.makezine.com/hapy_birthday_linus.jpg 01:19 < genehacker> where is your god now? 01:20 -!- flamt [n=root@bas2-barrie18-1176374559.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:20 < QuantumG> http://www.imm.org/publications/pnas/ 01:20 < QuantumG> what a revolution that sparked! </sarcasm> 01:21 < Aliks> lol 01:23 < randallagordon> Aye, I tend to end up spilling many pots ;) 01:24 < Aliks> I wish there was a way to easily find collaborators on stuff 01:24 < Aliks> as it is it takes longer to find collaborators than to just do stuf 01:26 < randallagordon> Aye 01:26 < genehacker> what sort of stuff do you wish to collaborate on? 01:28 -!- marainein [n=marainei@220-253-63-155.VIC.netspace.net.au] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:29 < Aliks> genehacker, I have so many projects its hard to say... pretty much anything i'm working on... right now doing some scraping/database insertion of census bureau data... lol 01:29 < Aliks> I'll have to make a list 01:29 < randallagordon> Does anyone have any good sources of information on patent law regarding DIY projects? Does the simple act of creation cause violation, or must it first be commercialized? 01:30 < Aliks> good question 01:30 < Aliks> we should have a DIY Legal FAQ 01:30 < Aliks> diylegal.com? lol 01:33 < randallagordon> I'd also love some quality sources for info about ensuring ideas are forced into the commons, making them unpatentable...I'm finding that Google is worthless on this front, as the simple addition of the word "patent" to any search leads to an endless mess of "Patent your idea yourself" sites... 01:34 < Aliks> yes 01:35 < Aliks> I'm having a similar issue actually 01:35 < Aliks> I have an idea that I don't want someone else to take and commercialize but I fear that without spending $100,000s on lawyers, my own patent efforts will be unsuccesful 01:35 < Aliks> lol 01:35 < randallagordon> There's all sorts of info catering to those who want to lock information down, making it difficult to uncover useful information for those of us who want to ensure it can't be locked down... 01:39 -!- Trooem [n=adfasfda@S0106001d724fcb1d.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:39 < randallagordon> I have an interest in creating a retail ecommerce front that provides added value via DIY video tutorials, at some point I'm certain to step on someone's patent...I want to know what I need to watch out for. 01:40 < randallagordon> I've got no qualms about putting up something along those lines on my own personal site, but when it is connected to a commercial venture, it is more likely to garner negative attention from a patent holder... 01:42 < Aliks> yeah 01:42 < Aliks> sucks that the economy currently works that way 01:42 < randallagordon> For instance, if General Hydroponics were to hold a patent on the hardware for their Waterfarm systems, and I created a DIY video showing how to recreate something very similar "from scratch" or salvaged parts, where do I stand legally? 01:43 < Aliks> my personal view on that is, just try it and see what happens 01:43 < Aliks> use the money you earn from actually doing it to investigate the risks of continuing to do it 01:43 < Aliks> rather than incurring a lot of up front cost before you even start 01:43 < randallagordon> aye, I just don't enjoy the idea of watching hard work evaporate thanks to assinine laws which weren't readily apparent from the beginning 01:43 < Aliks> right 01:43 < Aliks> well, you shouldnt get on anyone's radar too soon I dont think 01:43 < randallagordon> but, I tend to think like you do ;) 01:44 < randallagordon> I tend to swat the beehive 01:44 * Aliks nods. 01:44 < randallagordon> albeit, usually indirectly 01:45 < randallagordon> anyone here have an interest in agriculture? 01:45 < Aliks> I'm interested, but no knowledge and not participating in any tech development in that area 01:45 < randallagordon> similar on my end, although I'm fostering it as a potential growth area 01:46 < randallagordon> have you ever seen Graze? http://graze.com/ 01:46 < Aliks> nice 01:47 < Aliks> very cool 01:47 < Aliks> I had an idea for a study spot... would be similar.. just grazing food for while you study/work 01:49 < randallagordon> Ever since I came across Graze I've been wanting to see something similar stateside 01:49 < randallagordon> Finally have been made aware of this project: http://www.localfoodmarketplace.com 01:50 < randallagordon> My idea is to create an open source system for farmers to utilize, alongside a commercial hosted offering, ala SugarCRM and many other OS projects 01:52 < randallagordon> I have a vision of what could be possible if a consumer were able to log in and view via webcam THE head of lettuce that he or she will be receving when it is ready for harvest 01:52 < Aliks> lol 01:52 < Aliks> nice 01:52 < randallagordon> But, I'm not sure if that's just my geekiness, or if it something that a wider market would enjoy 01:53 * Aliks shrugs. 01:53 < randallagordon> More connection to the food, recognizing the hard work that goes into it, I feel is key to getting people to value what they're subsiting off of again 01:54 < randallagordon> subsisting, even 01:56 < randallagordon> Imagine tying it in with social networking aspects to facilitate recepie sharing, complete with an "Order the ingredients for this dish" button...subscribing to foods based off personalized nutritional plans... 01:56 < Aliks> that's pretty cool 01:57 < randallagordon> And on the geekier side, I dig on Controlled Environment Agriculture 01:58 < randallagordon> I'm thinking anti-Krispy Creme...instead of watching doughnuts being made through behind the glass, setup a health food bar, see your live food behind glass, watch the fruits picked from the vines/limbs, the sprouts harvested and then see them immediately tossed into the blender to make your customized smoothie... 01:59 < randallagordon> vertical hydro/areoponics systems, ala Omega Garden 02:01 < Aliks> I like the idea of the robotically tended microfarms 02:01 < Aliks> allows for a lot of local growing 02:01 < randallagordon> bingo 02:01 < Aliks> makes it economical on scales other than huge farms 02:01 < Aliks> microrobot equivalent to the giant wheat harvester 02:01 < randallagordon> I've got my own siphon based ebb & flow system setup in one of my spare bedrooms 02:01 < Aliks> nice 02:02 < randallagordon> I aim to continually improve on it, adding more automation as I can 02:02 < randallagordon> I picked up a Teensy uC board here a while back to use to create a realtime pH/TDS/temperature monitor...eventually I intend to pair it with an embedded web server and serve up the data all pretty like using AJAX and the Rapheal visualization library 02:03 < randallagordon> suppose I first need to get the sensors working ;) 02:05 * Aliks nods. 02:08 -!- superkuh [n=hukrepus@unaffiliated/superkuh] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:10 -!- superkuh [n=hukrepus@unaffiliated/superkuh] has joined #hplusroadmap 02:34 -!- genehacker [n=noko@pool-173-57-48-104.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:41 < Aliks> almost time to test this 02:41 < Aliks> took longer than I thought to scrape this part of the data 02:43 * randallagordon needs to figure out what he's doing wrong with <audio> tag embedding so Chrome will play nice... 02:46 < Aliks> is that HTML5? 02:46 < Aliks> does chrome support it? 02:53 < randallagordon> yep 02:53 < randallagordon> it is part of webkit 02:53 < randallagordon> http://randallagordon.com/jaraoke/ 02:53 < randallagordon> works in FF and Safari but not Chrome 02:53 < randallagordon> finally decided to take a closer look and see if I can't track down why 02:54 < Aliks> gahh DNS just un-propogated or something lol 02:58 < Aliks> test 03:00 < randallagordon> you're a test! 03:01 < randallagordon> ya know what's really cool? coming home to find your 4'x8' whiteboard covered top to bottom with Python code your fiance has hashed out while you were away... 03:01 < Aliks> lol 03:01 < Aliks> nice 03:02 < randallagordon> She's starting to design her first game...a basic biology sim 03:07 < Aliks> biology sim? 03:08 < randallagordon> she's just learning the basics of programming, so a little mixture of stuff to get acquainted with loops and flow control..."build a cell, step by step" kinda thing 03:08 < Aliks> nice 03:08 < randallagordon> so there's a giant elif block on the whiteboard :) 03:08 < Aliks> like... add lysosome... add golgi apparatus.. 03:08 < randallagordon> bingo 03:09 < Aliks> RoughER.MakeProtein().... 03:09 < Aliks> very cool 03:09 < randallagordon> That'd be the next step, getting her wrapped around classes 03:09 * Aliks nods. 03:09 < randallagordon> at the moment it looks highly procedural...but looking at the code, it appears to be functional 03:10 < randallagordon> I'll have to find out tomorrow if she's typed it up and tried it yet 03:10 < randallagordon> showing her that bio is becoming yet another IT field has sparked her desire to learn to code :) 03:13 < randallagordon> hrmmm, I'm suddenly suspecting that the audio/Chrome issue is a mime type problem 03:13 < Aliks> lol 03:13 < Aliks> man, my code is acting funny.. 03:15 < Utopiah> you might want to submit it to http://www.alife12.org/ 03:17 < randallagordon> interesting 03:17 < randallagordon> If we take the idea further (possibility of creating a multiplayer web-based near-realtime game out of it) then, perhaps 03:25 < randallagordon> grrr, Chrome and audio just works goofy...need to determine if it is a Chrome/Ogg issue or if it is something goofy with the way Ogg is being served off my host 03:26 < Aliks> how do you make a game out of that? 03:26 < randallagordon> cellular biology? 03:27 < Aliks> yeah 03:28 < randallagordon> I believe she's thinking along the lines of some of the Facebook sim games 03:28 < Utopiah> randallagordon: might want to check few links I gathered on http://fabien.benetou.fr/ReadingNotes/Protocells 03:28 < randallagordon> ala CafeWorld 03:29 < randallagordon> although that idea wouldn't be alife caliber ;) 03:30 < randallagordon> But like...SimBody...manage what types of cells are put into production, game elements determine the "health" of the system 03:30 < randallagordon> I'm severly lacking on the biology end of the spectrum, so she'd have to make such decisions ;) 03:36 < randallagordon> so, yay, it is something on my server config that is making Chrome puke on Ogg 03:36 < randallagordon> yet Safari and FF stream it just fine 03:36 < randallagordon> and the MIME type is set to audio/ogg 03:36 < Aliks> 2 minutes to the public test of this lol 03:37 < Aliks> works!!! 03:38 < Aliks> http://www.aiyosolutions.com/dtorg/cex_chart.png 03:38 < Aliks> is from ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/special.requests/ce/standard/2008/quintile.txt 03:38 < Aliks> generated for "all quintiles" 03:40 < Aliks> http://www.aiyosolutions.com/dtorg/cex_chart_lowest.png, http://www.aiyosolutions.com/dtorg/cex_chart_highest.png 03:40 < randallagordon> nice 03:43 < Aliks> took longer than it should have but yeah, seems to work 03:47 < Aliks> biggest change I can see is personal insurance and pensions 03:47 < Aliks> I need to look into color coding this stuff better.. 03:47 < Aliks> I wonder what google charts allows.. 03:48 < Aliks> aha nce 03:48 < Aliks> nice 03:48 < Aliks> they allow a lot 03:49 < randallagordon> yaaay, Chrome is playing nice 03:50 < randallagordon> Should have thought of this, but gzipping, hence, not sending Content-Length, is apparently confusing come time to playback files browser side... ;) 03:51 < randallagordon> aye, their API produces a lot of sexiness 03:51 < randallagordon> look at Rapheal, too 04:00 < Aliks> only thing I dont like is I can't find a way to keep the categories in order around the pie chart 04:00 < Aliks> it orders them by size automatically 04:01 < Aliks> btw new charts in color :) 04:01 < Aliks> http://www.aiyosolutions.com/dtorg/cex_chart_highest.png, http://www.aiyosolutions.com/dtorg/cex_chart_lowest.png 04:02 < randallagordon> fairly easy to make sexy charts using Illustrator, too 04:03 < Aliks> yeah 04:03 < Aliks> but this is all plugged in automatically 04:03 < Aliks> I can do like... 04:04 < randallagordon> Illustrator can import CSV and XML 04:04 < Aliks> http://www.aiyosolutions.com/dtorg/cex_chart.php?id=7 04:05 < Aliks> that is the breakdown of food at home, away from home for average consumer 04:05 < Aliks> http://www.aiyosolutions.com/dtorg/cex_chart.php?id=13 04:05 < randallagordon> http://randallagordon.com/jing/2009-12-03_2231.png 04:05 < randallagordon> ahhh 04:05 < Aliks> that's an even more detailed breakdown of food at home 04:05 < randallagordon> very nice 04:05 < Aliks> http://www.aiyosolutions.com/dtorg/cex_chart.php?id=19 breakdown of cereals vs bakery products 04:05 < Aliks> lol 04:06 < randallagordon> That chart is all done using Styles, so the data is still editable 04:06 < randallagordon> I <3 Illustrator 04:06 < randallagordon> As you can see, I didn't have any meaningful data to chart, however ;) 04:07 -!- Aliks [n=epicurea@76-14-163-117.wsac.wavecable.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:07 -!- aliks3 [n=epicurea@76-14-163-117.wsac.wavecable.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 04:07 < aliks3> back 04:07 < aliks3> looked at your chart 04:07 < aliks3> so thats all styles?? 04:07 < aliks3> http://www.aiyosolutions.com/dtorg/cex_chart.php?id=37 <-- breakdown of meat consumption (in dollars) by average family 04:08 < randallagordon> Yep...3D extrude 04:08 < randallagordon> small slice with a white-to-white 100-0% opacity gradiant 04:09 < randallagordon> to get the 3D bevel effect 04:09 < randallagordon> http://randallagordon.com/jing/2009-12-02_1936.png 04:09 < aliks3> lol nice 04:09 < aliks3> you're getting very creative with that API 04:09 < randallagordon> extruded slice...although I didn't do that one with Layer Styles... 04:10 < randallagordon> Oh, these are just done with Illustrator, not Google Charts 04:10 < randallagordon> although, using svg, it should be possible 04:11 < randallagordon> heck, a simple div with a 24-bit alpha channel PNG would pull it off 04:12 < aliks3> ah I see 04:13 < randallagordon> which, would be a nifty hack...give Google Charts that little extra flare over the next guy's charts 04:14 < aliks3> indeed 04:14 < aliks3> well, at the very least I can say I learned how to use google charts today lol 04:14 < aliks3> havent had a use for it before 04:15 < aliks3> yet another skill that will become obsolete whenever Google Charts becomes an obsolete technology 04:16 < aliks3> lol 04:16 < randallagordon> wahlah: http://randallagordon.com/jing/2009-12-29_0216.png 04:17 < aliks3> whats the data for 04:18 < aliks3> what's up with Jan, Feb etc? 04:18 < aliks3> have I given you my website address BTW? I'm at your .com right now 04:19 < aliks3> I like meeting people that have their name as their .com lol 04:19 < randallagordon> I just pulled it directly off the Google Charts site... 04:19 < randallagordon> you haven't 04:19 < aliks3> msg'd it to you 04:20 < randallagordon> I see that now :) 04:20 < aliks3> our email also has the same format 04:20 < aliks3> firstname@first&last.com 04:20 < randallagordon> nice 04:20 < randallagordon> I've also got randallgordon.com 04:20 < randallagordon> just redirects 04:20 < aliks3> nod 04:21 < aliks3> if DNS will ever work properly I have the .net and .org of my name which will have different purposes 04:21 < aliks3> .net will be a social/professional networking site 04:21 < aliks3> .org will organize my charitable work etc. 04:21 < randallagordon> easier to build a distinct "brand" around Randall A. Gordon, however 04:21 < randallagordon> nice 04:21 < aliks3> not sure what my host is doing with the damn dns 04:22 < aliks3> was working a few hours ago 04:22 -!- aliks3 is now known as Aliks 04:26 < randallagordon> the .com is working fine for me, at least 04:26 < Aliks> yeah the .com should be, the .net/.org are more recent 04:26 < Aliks> .com's been up for several years 04:26 < Aliks> as you can see, the design is getting a little dated 04:26 < Aliks> 800px width and all 04:26 < Aliks> can't bring myself to change it though... I like the smoke stuff up top 04:27 < Aliks> never can seem to get quite that same look 04:28 -!- Trooem [n=adfasfda@S0106001d724fcb1d.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 04:30 < randallagordon> It isn't broke, don't fix it 04:31 < Aliks> yeah, other things to spend my time on 04:31 < Aliks> wow, Bureau of Labor Statistics data is soooo much easier to handle 04:31 < Aliks> I'll be able to get employment info tomorrow in like 1 hour 04:34 < randallagordon> Reading through you musings, I like the way you think 04:35 < randallagordon> The No Bureaucrats Rule is spot on 04:40 < randallagordon> and Contingent Donations...<3 04:41 < Aliks> yeah I started doing those because I never have time to write full articles anymore, but I'm trying to fix that lol 04:41 < Aliks> thanks though 04:41 < randallagordon> I feel ya ;) 04:41 < randallagordon> I have a short blurb re: donations/charity on my own blog 04:42 < Aliks> I'll check it out 04:42 < Aliks> yeah the thing that got me to write the Bureau thing was when I was dealing with the school district 04:42 < Aliks> the college district that is 04:42 < Aliks> and I was offering to write them some free software that would help students 04:42 < Aliks> and they did everything possible to block me by denying access to information etc. 04:43 < Aliks> eventually had to just write a scraper and plow through a ton of raw data to get what I needed 04:43 < Aliks> was faster than dealing with their system 04:43 < randallagordon> heh, fun 04:43 < Aliks> ya 04:44 < Aliks> hmm got a link to your article? I cant find it 04:48 < randallagordon> http://randallagordon.com/blog/2009/01/02/thoughts-on-cash-donations/ 04:50 < Aliks> I like it 04:50 < Aliks> yeah like I'm having an issue with Methuselah Foundation right now 04:50 < Aliks> several of us are actually on their forum 04:50 < Aliks> they move too slow 04:50 < Aliks> so a few of us decided to start our own similar organization 04:50 < Aliks> no star power like MF has, but at least we can work efficiently 04:50 < Aliks> and I like the idea of working with people who want to work efficiently 04:51 < randallagordon> Aye 04:59 < Aliks> booted 04:59 < Aliks> I think 05:05 < randallagordon> nope 05:07 < randallagordon> I'm about to pass out on my desk 05:07 < randallagordon> time for sleep 05:07 < randallagordon> catch ya later, bro 05:10 < Aliks> yo 05:10 < Aliks> you still there? 05:10 < Aliks> lol 05:10 < Aliks> quick thing to show you 05:10 < Aliks> http://www.aiyosolutions.com/dtorg/bls_chart.php?id=0 05:10 < Aliks> anyway, catch you tomorrow 05:13 < randallagordon> yeah, I'm still buzzing around ;) lookin' good 05:17 < Aliks> yeah all BLS stuff is inputted, yay 05:17 < Aliks> thats actually a pretty good chunk of data to have fun messing around with 05:17 < Aliks> lol 05:28 -!- jm [n=j@p57B9CEDA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 05:32 < Aliks> http://www.aiyosolutions.com/dtorg/cex_charts/animated_chart.gif :) 06:07 -!- superkuh [n=hukrepus@unaffiliated/superkuh] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:09 -!- superkuh [n=hukrepus@unaffiliated/superkuh] has joined #hplusroadmap 07:20 -!- Netsplit verne.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: superkuh, technologiclee3, branstrom, Aliks 07:27 -!- superkuh [n=hukrepus@unaffiliated/superkuh] has joined #hplusroadmap 07:29 -!- branstrom [n=branstro@c-171ce055.438-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #hplusroadmap 07:29 -!- technologiclee3 [n=l@70.114.201.242] has joined #hplusroadmap 07:36 < kristianpaul> Utopiah: http://www.ckan.net/ 07:46 -!- El_Matarife [n=El_Matar@adsl-68-88-72-8.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 07:53 -!- Netsplit verne.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: branstrom, technologiclee3 08:00 -!- branstrom [n=branstro@c-171ce055.438-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #hplusroadmap 08:00 -!- technologiclee3 [n=l@70.114.201.242] has joined #hplusroadmap 08:20 < Utopiah> kristianpaul: thanks, it's in my dataset page since March ;) 08:20 -!- strages [n=strages@c-76-29-243-225.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 08:22 < kristianpaul> ah 08:22 < kristianpaul> hehe 08:22 < kristianpaul> i get lost in your dataset page atually :/ 08:58 -!- kristianpaul [n=kristian@190.7.148.137] has quit ["leaving"] 09:04 -!- kristianpaul [n=kristian@190.7.148.137] has joined #hplusroadmap 09:23 -!- transplexity [n=chatzill@c9153a4a.virtua.com.br] has joined #hplusroadmap 09:24 -!- Aliks [n=epicurea@76-14-163-117.wsac.wavecable.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 09:35 -!- Kuro_ [n=kuro@host86-131-206-33.range86-131.btcentralplus.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 09:36 -!- transplexity [n=chatzill@c9153a4a.virtua.com.br] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.6/20091201220228]"] 10:12 -!- thesnark [n=michael@ppp-69-221-4-192.dsl.toldoh.ameritech.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:20 -!- El_Matarife [n=El_Matar@adsl-68-88-72-8.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit ["Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de"] 10:24 -!- Kuro___ [n=kuro@host86-131-206-33.range86-131.btcentralplus.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 10:25 -!- Netsplit verne.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: Aliks, Kuro_, technologiclee3 10:25 -!- Netsplit verne.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: branstrom 10:25 -!- Kuro___ is now known as Kuro_ 10:32 -!- branstrom [n=branstro@c-171ce055.438-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #hplusroadmap 10:32 -!- technologiclee3 [n=l@70.114.201.242] has joined #hplusroadmap 11:02 -!- Netsplit verne.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: branstrom, technologiclee3 11:08 < kanzure> hello Kuro_ 11:08 < Kuro_> Hello, kanzure. 11:09 -!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 34 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 34 normal] 11:18 -!- branstrom [n=branstro@c-171ce055.438-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #hplusroadmap 11:18 -!- technologiclee3 [n=l@70.114.201.242] has joined #hplusroadmap 11:20 < kanzure> 4-axis bioprinting http://www.washington.edu/dxarts/profile_research.php?who=kudla&project=EdenBumber 11:22 -!- Netsplit verne.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: branstrom, technologiclee3 11:22 -!- kristianpaul [n=kristian@190.7.148.137] has quit ["leaving"] 11:27 -!- branstrom [n=branstro@c-171ce055.438-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #hplusroadmap 11:27 -!- technologiclee3 [n=l@70.114.201.242] has joined #hplusroadmap 11:49 -!- transplexity [n=chatzill@c9153a4a.virtua.com.br] has joined #hplusroadmap 11:53 < kanzure> hello transplexity 11:53 * kanzure goes to find lunch. then, off to write more documentation 11:54 < transplexity> hello kanzure. I'm watching your video now. Civilizations seeds... Cool. 12:10 -!- Trooem [n=adfasfda@S0106001d724fcb1d.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:18 -!- Kuro_ [n=kuro@host86-131-206-33.range86-131.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.6/20091201220228]"] 12:24 -!- transplexity [n=chatzill@c9153a4a.virtua.com.br] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:36 < kanzure> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbJnGH_PMWg a little amv on akira, lain, and GITS 13:01 < kanzure> http://gliffy.com/ diagram utility that runs in a browser 13:01 < kanzure> wtf latex doesn't natively support svg 13:03 -!- kristianpaul [n=kristian@190.7.148.137] has joined #hplusroadmap 13:15 -!- transplexity [n=chatzill@c9153a4a.virtua.com.br] has joined #hplusroadmap 13:16 < kanzure> transplexity: what did you think after watching the videos? 13:17 < transplexity> Well... 13:17 < transplexity> This friend of yours has a curious worldview, don't he? 13:17 < transplexity> "In a lot of countries you don't have anything except for junk..." 13:17 < transplexity> C'mon... 13:18 < transplexity> I know people who would get really upset :-) 13:18 < kanzure> when was that said? 13:18 < transplexity> ;-) 13:18 < transplexity> Oh close to the middle of the video I think 13:19 < transplexity> But that's ok, he said it in a positive mood... 13:19 < kanzure> there were three videos 13:19 < transplexity> SKDB: Downloading hardware over the web (Hplus Summit 2009) part 1/3 13:19 < kanzure> huh 13:19 < kanzure> okay 13:19 < kanzure> i think you're in brazil? 13:20 < transplexity> 08:22mins 13:20 < transplexity> I think you're right 13:21 < transplexity> And still limited to this planet... 13:21 < transplexity> I like the mind hive idea 13:22 < transplexity> Kind of bodies doesn't matter, you know? 13:22 < transplexity> Brains only 13:23 -!- El_Matarife [n=El_Matar@adsl-68-88-72-8.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 13:25 < transplexity> I suppose there are other people around here that also live in Brazil, is this correct? 13:27 < transplexity> kanzure? 13:27 < kanzure> from time to time, like guido if he shows up today 13:27 < kanzure> but i don't, no 13:27 < transplexity> yeah I know 13:30 < transplexity> the group is quite inactive today 13:31 < transplexity> DIYbio, I mean 13:34 < transplexity> Oh, I think guido is Spanish or something... 13:34 < transplexity> Maria seems to be from Portugal 13:38 < transplexity> so kanzure, what you're doing right now? 13:42 -!- transplexity [n=chatzill@c9153a4a.virtua.com.br] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:45 < technologiclee3> this is a good pic for H+/DIY Bio http://www.facebook.com/inbox/?ref=mb#/photo.php?pid=30388068&id=1481304697&ref=nf&fbid=1150859939954 13:55 -!- rmadams [n=Adium@96.241.54.151] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:57 -!- rmadams [n=rmadams@96.241.54.151] has joined #hplusroadmap 14:03 -!- genehacker [n=noko@pool-173-57-48-104.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 14:05 -!- Aliks [n=epicurea@76-14-163-117.wsac.wavecable.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 14:08 -!- aliks3 [n=epicurea@76-14-163-117.wsac.wavecable.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 14:23 < flamt_> http://critterding.sf.net 14:23 -!- Aliks [n=epicurea@76-14-163-117.wsac.wavecable.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:26 -!- thesnark [n=michael@ppp-69-221-4-192.dsl.toldoh.ameritech.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 14:34 < kanzure> power went out 14:36 < thesnark> Storm? 14:36 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/~bryan/skdb-tutorials/skdb-yaml-tut01.html 14:37 < kanzure> first go at a silly tutorial. feedback welcome. 14:50 < kanzure> ping pong 15:11 < randallagordon> I'll go over it when I get back home this evening, looks to be a great starting point 15:12 < randallagordon> IANAL, but I'd also be very careful about using the term "Lego", being that it is a registered trademark... 15:14 < randallagordon> Although I would hope that the folks behind Lego would be in support of SKDB... 15:15 < randallagordon> Being that they share philosophical similarities... 15:19 < technologiclee3> here is a video of the glove interface for tinmith http://wearables.unisa.edu.au/tinmith/videos/tinmith-glove-user-interface-oct2002.mpg 15:19 < thesnark> randallagordon can you really make that kind of an assumption though? 15:25 < kanzure> i'm not worried about lego-inc 15:28 < kanzure> more concerned about the quality of the tutorial 16:06 < randallagordon> thesnark, hence my usage of the word hope 16:07 < randallagordon> I do not make such an assumption, therefore, my concern for future legal issues 16:07 < thesnark> randallagordon right, I was just being way too focused on little details as usual 16:08 < thesnark> I'd like to point out that it's a legal security risk though :) however small 16:09 < randallagordon> and small thorns tend to get infected if they're not watched ;) 16:10 < kanzure> anyway 16:11 < kanzure> randallagordon: you said you got skdb working? and the visualizer? 16:11 < kanzure> i was wondering if you had any thoughts on what the tutorial should cover. assume that someone has got to your stage. 16:21 < aliks3> yawn 16:21 < randallagordon> I did indeed get it working, although I have yet to do anything beyond run the suggested lego and paths.py test scripts 16:21 < aliks3> actually I think there might be a way to make this fairly popular 16:22 < aliks3> what about marketing a product called the AnyToy 16:22 < aliks3> that creates any toy a kid wants 16:22 < randallagordon> The first "stumbling" block was how to get the packages...the git clone doesn't bring them down, so I assume they're not in the main repo 16:22 < aliks3> just insert raw materials and paint 16:22 < aliks3> download new toys off the internet 16:22 < randallagordon> (I'm a git newbie, btw, I've just used SVN, so this easily could be user error) 16:23 < randallagordon> I ended up just wget'ing the designfiles.org/packages/lego directory 16:23 < aliks3> new longevity organization site going live around the end of today 16:24 < aliks3> just got word from my cofounder that he'll be ready 16:24 < randallagordon> aliks3, I've been thinking in terms of "RedBox for stuff" 16:24 < aliks3> randallagordon, that'd be very cool 16:24 < aliks3> randallagordon thats one of the best applications I've heard so far 16:25 < aliks3> that way nobody needs to own the equipment, can let it be a little expensive for a while 16:25 < aliks3> until the price comes down to where they can buy the home version 16:25 < randallagordon> yep...an MIT licensed printer would do the trick, methinks 16:25 < QuantumG> "These Google guys, they want to be billionaires and rock stars and go to conferences and all that, let's see if they still want to run the buiness in two to three years." - Bill Gates, 2003. 16:25 < aliks3> hardware store could also carry a metalworking version... the AnyBolt or AnyScrew etc. 16:27 < randallagordon> Hrmmm, six years later, they seem to be still rocking it 16:27 < kanzure> randallagordon: they are obtainable through using the file in skdb/clients/skdb-get.py just type python skdb-get.py lego 16:28 < randallagordon> excellent, I figured there was such a get command...I have yet to actually dig through the source 16:28 < randallagordon> But, that would be something to have in the tut, for sure 16:28 < kanzure> :) okay 16:29 < randallagordon> I'll try to be a good guinea pig ;) 16:29 -!- EmbraceUnity_ [n=quassel@c-76-16-96-22.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 16:29 < aliks3> however, for visionary people i'm a little disappointed at their results 16:31 < aliks3> like, where is Google WorldFarm, or Google Energy 16:31 < kanzure> aliks3: have you seen the tutorial? 16:31 < aliks3> or Google Unpatent Office 16:33 < aliks3> and of course Google University, Google High School, etc. 16:34 < aliks3> yes 16:35 < QuantumG> give it time 16:36 < QuantumG> http://knol.google.com/ Google Wikipedia 16:36 < randallagordon> Google still operates according to market realities 16:37 < QuantumG> not to mention regulatory 16:37 < randallagordon> Google "Energy" is actually maturing quite quickly, I was talking with my local power coop and they're working with Google to get smart meters rolled out 16:37 < QuantumG> if they had won the white spectrum bid we'd be seeing interesting wireless stuff by now 16:37 -!- JayDugger [n=duggerj@pool-173-57-16-175.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 16:37 < randallagordon> The power grid is a...special case...mainly thanks to regulatory issues, as QuantumG points out 16:37 * thesnark agrees with QuantumG, that was an important loss 16:37 < JayDugger> Hi, all. 16:38 < kanzure> JayDugger: can you drop a link to the google docs page? 16:38 < randallagordon> White spectrum bid? You mean the 700MHz bid? 16:38 < QuantumG> they got some concessions though.. and we'll see that soon I expect 16:38 < randallagordon> Whitespace is related, but separate 16:38 < JayDugger> http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AQY8iyNeuVgwZHBjcmZyM184NmRodHZmZ2R0&hl=en 16:39 < kanzure> jay and i are editing the tutorial 16:39 < QuantumG> http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=8293 16:39 < JayDugger> That link leads to a draft of YAML and SKDB: Making a Super Lego. 16:39 < kanzure> i figure randall and aliks might like a shot at it 16:39 < aliks3> I read it and unfortunately I am not involved enough in it yet to have anything significant to add, kanzure 16:39 < randallagordon> The whitespace end of things is moving forward decently well at this point 16:40 < JayDugger> Did you catch any typos or grammatical errors? 16:40 < JayDugger> Did you find any cumbersome sentences? 16:40 < kanzure> aliks3: what i mainly need are people asking "wtf is this shit" 16:40 < randallagordon> I'm working on my bro to see if he's interested in putting his CAD skills to work to get the repository of parts bolstered 16:42 < aliks3> http://designfiles.org/~bryan/skdb-tutorials/skdb-yaml-tut01.html talking about this right? 16:42 < JayDugger> That's the original, yes. 16:42 < aliks3> yeah no issues for me 16:42 < aliks3> I didnt catch any typos but that doesnt mean there arent any 16:43 < randallagordon> kanzure, given that the list of what is "alredy functional" is up to date, I think simply getting the skdb-get details added in will make for a sufficient "get up and running" tutorial...from there, I'd say focus efforts on a tutorial that explains the basics of "package creation" 16:43 < aliks3> Re: the nit pick at the start of the new draft.. 16:44 < aliks3> I dunno about "". vs "." Personally I go with "". even though it is "wrong" because it seems more logically correct 16:45 < JayDugger> Yeah, that's turning into common usage, just as only pedants remember "issue" and "problem" have different meanings. 16:45 < aliks3> right 16:45 < kanzure> randallagordon: okay 16:46 < kanzure> randallagordon: the installation procedures are going to become radically simpler when we get a .deb created 16:46 < randallagordon> I agree with aliks3 on the quotes issue, this is something that is starting to become recognized by the style manuals as well 16:47 < randallagordon> kanzure, great to hear...that should make life much nicer for getting people with drafting skills involved 16:48 < randallagordon> (who don't also posess coding skills) 16:48 < JayDugger> Does the document's logical layout need to exactly match the "Topics covered" list? 16:49 < randallagordon> wow...IRC reveals just how bad of a speller I am... 16:49 < JayDugger> I.e., a discussion of SKDB, a discussion of YAML, a discussion of packages, and then HOW-TO share a Super Lego? 16:50 < JayDugger> That way the document's body matches the Topics covered list. 16:50 < JayDugger> Tell them what you're going to tell them, and then tell them. 16:53 < kanzure> hrm 16:53 < JayDugger> Does Lego need a capital "L?" 16:53 < JayDugger> Does Python? 16:54 < kanzure> urm 16:55 < kanzure> proper nouns are supposed to be capitalized i think 16:55 < kanzure> pythonocc should be pythonOCC 16:55 < JayDugger> And how many hyperlinks per pargraph before they turn into noise? Only one, I think, but YMMV. 16:55 < JayDugger> Proper nouns, aka names, take an initial capital. 16:56 < JayDugger> CamelCase trumps that, and so does your example of pythonOCC. 16:56 < randallagordon> Titles should be spelled how the creator spelled them 16:57 < JayDugger> Yes. 16:58 < randallagordon> I'm a stickler for that since ILoveMyCamelCase ;) 16:59 < randallagordon> also, is there an skdb-list command yet? that should be alongisde -get in the tut if there is (again, sorry, I really need to familiarize myself with the source) 16:59 < JayDugger> I added a few lines in the Style "Header 3" to mark the logical divisions listed in "Topics covered." 17:00 < JayDugger> I feel a bit reluctant to cut-and-paste the sections from the draft under the new headers. 17:00 < JayDugger> I don't want to make a mistake by mis-assigning a section. 17:00 < JayDugger> But since it's a draft, and since we've some change history... 17:01 < QuantumG> I've yet to read one of these "shit that happened in the last 10 years" articles that actually impressed me. 17:02 < QuantumG> but I guess I'm looking for someone who actually remembers the last 10 years 17:02 < QuantumG> and not just the last 2. 17:03 < aliks3> lol 17:03 < aliks3> last 10 years has actually been mildly impressive 17:04 < aliks3> I mean, CRT monitors to almost all flat screen 17:04 < aliks3> from very very basic cellphones to very complex smartphones 17:04 < aliks3> processor speed continued to increase 17:04 < randallagordon> ...wow...it has been 10 years since I had a land line.... 17:05 < aliks3> digital cameras from like 1 megapixel to 12 now in a cheap model 17:05 < aliks3> 1-5 gb hard drives to 1 TB 17:05 < randallagordon> 12 crappy, noisy megapixels :P 17:05 < aliks3> lol 17:05 < aliks3> randallagordon thats why you buy 100 and set them up in a 10 x 10 grid 17:05 < aliks3> and process the images lol 17:06 < aliks3> to get yourself a 500MP camera 17:06 < QuantumG> so far everything you've said has been "existing technology progressed along well established development lines" 17:06 < JayDugger> I suggest adopting the same typographical conventions as O'Reilly. 17:06 < aliks3> QuantumG, yeah I suppose so 17:06 < randallagordon> I'll take an oldschool 4MP full-frame sensor over any of today's 12MP tiny as hell sensors :P 17:06 < JayDugger> SpaceShip One? 17:06 < aliks3> QuantumG nothing disruptive, you're right 17:06 < JayDugger> XCOR? 17:06 < aliks3> I blame Bush 17:06 < QuantumG> yep, the X-Prize was won, that was an event - it went no-where, but it happened 17:06 < JayDugger> Laser-based video projectors, though those aren't on the home entertainment market. 17:07 < aliks3> Wolfram Alpha kind of was a thing... but not all that big of a thing 17:07 < randallagordon> And it is within the last 2 years ;) 17:07 < aliks3> I think the only innovations anyone here will see as important are cures for cancer, aging, AI, nanotech... 17:07 < QuantumG> wide-screen tvs (plasma, lcd, etc) happened.. that's certainly new and came out of no-where 17:07 < aliks3> QuantumG, I dont know about you but over the last 15 years at least I've noticed life has gotten a lot more colorful 17:08 < JayDugger> Most of the readers will probably have at least one O'Reilly book. The conventions will appear familiar and O'Reilly won't complain. 17:08 -!- aliks3 is now known as Aliks 17:08 < randallagordon> now we just need large, high resolution displays, but first we need to get the home theater nuts to shut up about not needing anything more than 2K resolution... 17:08 < QuantumG> my parents were travelling around Australia for the first half of this decade.. they came back and decided to buy a tv and were like "where the hell did all this stuff come from?" 17:08 < Aliks> as in, seems like all the packaging, clothes, everything has become very vibrant 17:08 < Aliks> the damn towels at Target come in like 25 colors 17:08 < randallagordon> Aliks, you didn't live through the 80s, did you? ;) 17:08 < Aliks> I remember the 90s being a lot less vibrant feeling 17:08 < Aliks> randallagordon, no I was barely aware 17:08 * randallagordon remembers NEON EVERYTHING 17:08 < Aliks> was born in 1983 17:08 < JayDugger> If you make them styles in your editing software, then you've got good consistency. 17:09 < randallagordon> Ah, well, I'm only one year older ;) 17:09 < JayDugger> Yeah, I remember less eyestrain after '89. 17:09 < QuantumG> DVDs came out in Australia in 1999 17:09 < randallagordon> I had neon green "hammer pants", lol 17:09 < randallagordon> You can't touch this! 17:10 < JayDugger> therealepicureanideal--did you get the Google Docs invite I sent? 17:11 < randallagordon> QuantumG, followed by optical dying circa 2009 ;) 17:11 < JayDugger> Does SKDB stand for anything? 17:11 < kanzure> social knowledge engineering database 17:11 < randallagordon> Serial Killer DataBase ;) 17:11 < Aliks> JayDugger yep 17:11 < QuantumG> Gmail was launched as an invitation-only beta release on April 1, 2004 and it became available to the general public on February 7, 2007. 17:11 < JayDugger> Seriously? 17:12 < QuantumG> Yahoo! Mail was inaugurated in 1997 17:12 < randallagordon> ...that's something...cloud based services have come into their own over the last 10 years, but I think the next 10 will be seen as the decade they truly blossom 17:13 < JayDugger> Eh... 17:13 < QuantumG> I can't remember how much WiFi there was around in 2000 17:14 < QuantumG> The term Wi-Fi, first used commercially in August 1999. 17:14 < randallagordon> not much, but it was getting rolling 17:14 < JayDugger> as the relative costs of storage space and bandwidth trade off, you'll see the pendulum swing between "cloud" or "time-sharing" and "local" or "personal" computing. 17:15 < QuantumG> The iPod is a portable media player designed and marketed by Apple and launched on October 23, 2001. 17:15 < QuantumG> of course, there were mp3 players before it 17:16 < randallagordon> heh, I remember wanting a Diamond Rio so bad 17:16 < kanzure> i have a rio in a box somewhere 17:16 < superkuh> I have two of them! 17:16 < kanzure> does anyone want it? 17:16 < superkuh> RioPMP 300 17:16 < QuantumG> The Rio PMP300 from Diamond Multimedia was introduced in September 1998 17:17 < JayDugger> I suggest indenting all code blocks. 17:17 < superkuh> Both of the battery latch covers have broken. I'd be surprised in a PMP300 with a battery cover intact is left on this earth. 17:17 < kanzure> jay okay 17:17 < QuantumG> C99 started being implemented around 2002 17:18 < QuantumG> .. it took 3 years to get over the shock of how horrible a job the committee did 17:18 < QuantumG> .. and it's still not fully implemented by any compiler today 17:18 < JayDugger> "Sometimes you want to make new instances of legos, with particular parameters and specifications. Maybe you want a Super Lego , with a width of 20 m and a thousand pegs." 17:18 < JayDugger> These two sentences have a problem. 17:19 < kanzure> "The idea is to create a milling machine with a precision of 20-10 microns at cutting speeds of 20 m/s and traverse speeds of 50 m/s. The total cost of the components is to be equal or less than $20,000 USD and the first prototype will be delivered in February. " 17:20 < JayDugger> The first one describes the instance of an object (I think). The second describes a hypothetical physical object (thing?) as the manufactured example of the software object. 17:20 < JayDugger> Ah, kanzure, I think you missed your paste target. 17:20 < JayDugger> That would be a neat tool, though. 17:20 < kanzure> that's the one that jorge barrera made for mfg.com 17:20 < randallagordon> OMG, gotprint.com needs to learn what AJAX is 17:21 < QuantumG> After the 2002 launch of Friendster, several eUniverse employees with Friendster accounts saw its potential and decided to mimic the more popular features of the social networking website, in August 2003. 17:21 < randallagordon> change an option, reload, change an option, reload, change an option, reload, GAH! 17:22 < randallagordon> heh, Friendster 17:22 < QuantumG> that's something that happened this decade and we're only starting to feel the real effect of.... the social networking website phenomena. 17:22 < JayDugger> Those two sentences don't clearly label the transition from discussing the software object and the physical artifact. 17:22 < JayDugger> For skdb developers, no big deal 17:23 < JayDugger> For the possibly-naïve reader, it could act like the tripwire for a confusion mine. :) 17:23 < randallagordon> I can certainly agree with that QuantumG 17:24 < randallagordon> So far, social networking seems to be the best example 17:24 < kanzure> JayDugger: i see 17:25 < QuantumG> International Genetically Engineered Machine (iGEM) competition started in 2003. 17:25 < JayDugger> You can't download hardware from the web. You can download software that will make hardware from the web. 17:25 < kanzure> JayDugger: sorry, but we're here to make it happen 17:26 < kanzure> that's like telling me i can't print something you scan in with your fax machine 17:26 < JayDugger> :) Point taken. 17:26 < JayDugger> Yes, exactly like that! 17:26 < JayDugger> You need a printer, and I need a fax machine. 17:27 < kanzure> well, most people have hands 17:27 < kanzure> and we have to assume they have at least some resources available- these assumptions will be made clear in due time of course 17:27 < randallagordon> JayDugger has a good point...it is a subtle difference, but the instatiation of an object and the object's definition are two different things 17:27 < QuantumG> The human genome draft was released in 2000.......... and none of the bold predictions that resulted have come to pass :) 17:27 < JayDugger> Okay, I'm with you on that. 17:27 < JayDugger> Does this piece of documentation need to make the point obvious in these two sentences? 17:27 < kanzure> i'm not sure which two sentences you're talking about 17:28 < JayDugger> At this point, would working to make it clear help--ah..."Sometimes you want to make new instances of legos, with particular parameters and specifications. Maybe you want a Super Lego , with a width of 20 m and a thousand pegs." 17:28 < JayDugger> Sentence one refers to the software object, I think, and sentence two refers to a physical artifact. 17:28 < kanzure> oh, well, no 17:29 < kanzure> i wasn't trying to distinguish the two 17:29 < JayDugger> Okay, that explains it. :) 17:29 < kanzure> the first sentence can apply to either hardware or software data 17:29 < kanzure> the second sentence is the same, except obviously the user might be wanting to literally make it 17:30 < JayDugger> So the two sentences have intentionally vague referents to reinforce the idea of fabricating a specific part from a class? 17:31 < kanzure> yes 17:31 < QuantumG> http://openwetware.org/wiki/Engineering_BioBrick_vectors_from_BioBrick_parts/Colony_PCR_protocol_-_source_code 17:31 < JayDugger> Alright. I misunderstood the point. 17:31 < QuantumG> what's that? 17:31 < kanzure> QuantumG: it's a lame attempt at "instructions" written in code 17:32 < QuantumG> k 17:32 < kanzure> look up "biostream" or "biocoder" 17:32 < Aliks> BioCoder, yeah it sucks 17:32 < kanzure> Aliks: we wanted to do something like that with skdb 17:32 < kanzure> but so far i haven't figured out a good way to do it 17:32 < Aliks> kanzure, I prefer my idea of just having an "ambiguity check" 17:32 < kanzure> their way sucks 17:32 < Aliks> [A] *click* [ 3 ambiguities found: ... ] 17:32 < kanzure> here's what i was trying: 17:32 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/skdb/doc/proposals/action.py 17:32 < kanzure> but it's even wrose 17:33 < kanzure> i want to be able to have these instructions translated into text, graphics, or 3D animation 17:33 < kanzure> (i.e. virtual agents demonstrating what to be doing) 17:33 < kanzure> the hard part is that you can't assume everyone who writes the instructions is going to be some computational linguist genius 17:33 < Aliks> right 17:33 < QuantumG> ok, say I have a vial of appropriate bacteria, a vial of a specific dna sequence (both ordered online), I wanna put the dna into the bacteria.. what's the protocol called and what equipment do I need? 17:33 < kanzure> it requires some fairly hardcore programming skills :p 17:33 * Aliks nods. 17:33 < Aliks> unfortunately the world is not us lol 17:33 < kanzure> QuantumG: transfection 17:34 < Aliks> I suspect an ambiguity check combined with a "markup helper" might work 17:34 < kanzure> QuantumG: there are many different protocols for it. you can do a calcium chloride protocol, AFM probe tip infection, gene gun (an inverted .22 caliber), ... 17:34 < Aliks> for example... 17:34 < Aliks> I click [A] and it says ok you're ambiguous in these 3 places, they fix it, then... 17:34 < kanzure> sorry but to do an ambiguity check, you need to have the computer able to parse and understand the text 17:34 < kanzure> and i don't want to do a natural language thing 17:34 < Aliks> it goes through and says "you are using a world that has the following possible meanings (even though the sentence is not ambiguous to a human, but this is for an automated machine to read rather than a human)... 17:34 < Aliks> er word 17:35 < Aliks> kanzure, I dont think it would be that hard 17:35 < Aliks> doesnt need to actually understand 17:35 < Aliks> just needs to see patterns 17:35 < Aliks> for example... 17:35 < kanzure> english sucks though 17:35 < kanzure> let's not encourage it 17:35 < Aliks> just by trial and error, and finding ambiguities you personally encounter... 17:35 < QuantumG> HEPES-buffered saline solution (HeBS) containing phosphate ions is combined with a calcium chloride solution containing the DNA to be transfected. When the two are combined, a fine precipitate of the positively charged calcium and the negatively charged phosphate will form, binding the DNA to be transfected on its surface. The suspension of the precipitate is then added to the cells to be transfected (usually a cell culture grown in a monolayer). 17:35 < QuantumG> By a process not entirely understood, the cells take up some of the precipitate, and with it, the DNA. 17:35 < Aliks> make a thing that watches for when people say "it", "the instrument", etc. 17:35 < kanzure> i agree that there needs to be an ambiguity resolver 17:35 < kanzure> but that doesn't resolve the issue of the underlying format or representation 17:35 < Aliks> kanzure, I think I can work it out 17:36 < Aliks> if you can help provide some background info 17:36 < kanzure> Aliks: i suggest you read the email called "recipe representation" 17:36 < kanzure> there's a link to it here: 17:36 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/om.html 17:36 < kanzure> here we go: http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/browse_frm/thread/a8d8ee245aaae97d# 17:37 -!- Redeemer [n=lorddeem@c-75-72-218-226.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 17:37 < kanzure> hey Redeemer 17:37 < Redeemer> Hey hey 17:37 < Aliks> here's a very very rough version 1 that would at least get something started, and get people used to the idea I think... 17:37 < Aliks> rules for the checker: 17:38 < Aliks> section that begins "equipment", followed by a numbered list of equipment 17:38 < kanzure> what is the checker processing 17:38 < Aliks> section that begins "materials", followed by a numbered list of materials and their quantities 17:38 < kanzure> have you seen the YAML format yet? it lists that information 17:38 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/packages/lego/metadata.yaml 17:38 < QuantumG> so does this technique work on prokaryote cells? 17:38 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/packages/lego/data.yaml 17:38 < kanzure> QuantumG: yes there are multiple bacteria transfection protocols 17:38 < Aliks> section that begins "instructions", followed by a numbered list of instructions, each instruction must list at least 1 equipment, 1 material, etc. 17:38 < kanzure> QuantumG: http://protocol-online.org/ 17:39 < kanzure> Aliks: so an instruction is just a list? 17:39 < Aliks> well the thing is, it's a totally dumb parser at this level 17:39 < kanzure> but how do you know what agent should be performing it? 17:39 < Aliks> it just checks to see that you've specified an actual thing 17:39 < Aliks> ah there we go, yes add in an agent then 17:40 < Aliks> so then it just checks to make sure you've given all the components for a "grammatically correct" instruction 17:40 < Aliks> you've got an agent doing something with (equipment) to (material) 17:40 < Aliks> if you dont have those, you're being oooobviously ambiguous 17:40 < Aliks> and then we can go from there to step 2 17:40 < kanzure> have you written parsers before? 17:40 < Aliks> yes 17:40 < kanzure> do they.. work? :) 17:41 < Aliks> I wrote a PHP extension that added operator overloading to PHP 17:41 < Aliks> or not extension, it parsed it and then spat out regular PHP 17:41 < kanzure> php doesn't have operator overloading? 17:41 < Aliks> no 17:41 < kanzure> huh 17:41 < Aliks> yeah it annoys e 17:41 < Aliks> *me 17:41 < kanzure> php5 too? 17:41 < Aliks> yep and 6 17:41 < kanzure> so, if you want to write a parser for this, that would be great 17:41 < kanzure> pyparsing is the common parser for python projects 17:41 < Aliks> I dont have a problem with that 17:41 < Aliks> I just need some example instructions as people would write them in plain english 17:42 < Aliks> and then I can start working from that 17:42 < kanzure> one of the ideas that i had was that it would be neat to put instructions in Cheetah templates 17:42 < kanzure> the email i linked you to has some examples 17:42 < Aliks> which? 17:42 < kanzure> if you need more, i have a few from an F16 maintenance manual 17:42 < kanzure> http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/browse_frm/thread/a8d8ee245aaae97d# 17:42 < Aliks> Chocolate Chip Cookie Ingredients 17:42 < Aliks> * 3/4 cup sugar 17:42 < Aliks> ? 17:42 < kanzure> there are lots of examples throughout the thread 17:42 < kanzure> that was a list of material requirements for making chocolate chip cookies 17:43 < Aliks> I see 17:43 < kanzure> i originally got the F16 instructions from a paper: http://designfiles.org/papers/instructions/ 17:43 < Aliks> well, I'm coming from the perspective of chemistry 17:43 < kanzure> let me see if i can find the .txt file of notes 17:43 < Aliks> like.. I have these reagents, here are the steps to react them.. 17:43 < kanzure> Aliks: jonathan cline was working on a parser that would take plain english biology protocols and try to parse them into something usable 17:43 < kanzure> he never released his grammar files though 17:43 < Aliks> hm 17:43 < Aliks> wonder why not 17:43 < kanzure> he's weird like that from time to time 17:43 < kanzure> anyway 17:43 < Aliks> maybe I shouldnt duplicate his work if he's already doing that 17:43 < kanzure> if you would like a data set to play with, 17:44 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/~bryan/protocol-online/ 17:44 < kanzure> no you should probably do it. he won't share it 17:44 < kanzure> i scraped protocol-online and grabbed all their protocols 17:44 < kanzure> it's mostly biology-science lab protocol stuff 17:44 < kanzure> but there's some chemistry IIRC 17:44 < JayDugger> Which paper has the F16 instructions, kanzure? 17:44 < Aliks> well the way I write the parser is going to be application specific 17:45 < kanzure> JayDugger: the one by matt stone. 1999. 17:45 < Aliks> so maybe I should work on your guys' application first 17:45 < kanzure> Aliks: don't bother writing a parser per se. 17:45 < kanzure> yes please 17:45 < kanzure> so, YAML is already a "parser" 17:45 < kanzure> what we need is the checker/evaluator 17:45 < kanzure> check out the .yaml files http://designfiles.org/packages/lego/metadata.yaml 17:45 < kanzure> so assume that your input is a string in python 17:45 < kanzure> representing (i guess?) a single step 17:46 < kanzure> if you need a shell on a server i can hook you up with a login 17:46 < Aliks> hmm 17:46 < Aliks> input is python? 17:46 < kanzure> JayDugger: http://designfiles.org/papers/instructions/Automating%20maintenance%20instructions%20study.pdf 17:46 < kanzure> Aliks: no 17:46 < Aliks> there's no english language description of the processes? 17:46 < kanzure> of what process? 17:46 < Aliks> building something 17:46 < kanzure> YAML is a way of writing really simple data files. it's a data serialization standard 17:47 < Aliks> hmm 17:47 < Aliks> ok 17:47 < kanzure> the advantage is that humans can read it 17:47 < Aliks> barely 17:47 < kanzure> so in skdb, we say "yaml.load(contents of some file)" 17:47 < kanzure> the typical way of doing this in python is with something called "pickle" 17:47 < kanzure> but the problem with pickle is that you can't read the output/input 17:48 < Aliks> ok so continue, what exactly would I be checking 17:48 < kanzure> so, when yaml.load() runs, it looks at the input and constructs a hierarchy or list of objects (instances of whatever python classes are in your project) 17:48 < kanzure> well it sounds like your idea is that the end-user or package maintainer writes down a list of instructions 17:48 < kanzure> in python there is a "list" object that yaml automagically deals with 17:48 < kanzure> so you would look at the list, and take the first step (the first item in the list) 17:48 < kanzure> which will be a string 17:48 < kanzure> and then run your magic over it 17:49 < kanzure> so you don't have to write a yaml parser 17:49 < kanzure> that's mainly what i'm trying ot say. there's a lot here that's already done for you 17:49 < kanzure> but there's no parser for an "instruction" 17:49 < kanzure> or "step" 17:49 < Aliks> ok 17:49 < JayDugger> I think the section "What is YAML?" needs work. 17:50 < Aliks> so there's a list and there's an item in teh list 17:50 < Aliks> what's in the list item? 17:50 < kanzure> the list is a list of strings 17:50 < kanzure> the string is a "step" or "instruction" 17:50 < Aliks> ok 17:50 < kanzure> so if you were totally a function-oriented programmer, you would have something like 17:51 < kanzure> def my_parser(step_text_goes_here) 17:51 < Aliks> so lets say I have Instructions.GetNext() 17:51 < kanzure> okay 17:51 < Aliks> I get the next sequential instruction 17:51 < Aliks> what's it say? 17:51 < JayDugger> The first sentence explains what YAML does, but the code snippet and the following text don't explain "why you should be interested in YAML for SKDB." 17:51 < kanzure> Aliks: whatever the user wrote down 17:51 < Aliks> what might what they wrote down look like 17:51 < Aliks> for SKDB 17:51 < kanzure> haha i thought you were the one proposing what it would look like 17:51 < Aliks> ohhh 17:52 < JayDugger> The reader goes through the code snippet, sees no YAML, and then gets the punchline: "Hidden." 17:52 < Aliks> now I understand the confusion 17:52 < Aliks> gotcha 17:52 < kanzure> JayDugger: yes i suck 17:52 < Aliks> ok so I have some flexibility here 17:52 < JayDugger> Easy, kanzure. :) 17:52 -!- transplexity [n=chatzill@c9153a4a.virtua.com.br] has joined #hplusroadmap 17:52 < kanzure> Aliks: but know that there's some stuff in skdb already.. like, check if a machine tool is actually specified in the metadata for dependencies, etc. 17:52 < kanzure> JayDugger: no no i just mean i need to improve it 17:52 < Aliks> kanzure, I'm not a mechanical engineer so I'm not sure what the nature of the instructions would be 17:53 < Aliks> trying to get an idea of what sort of data I'd be handling 17:53 < kanzure> Aliks: my hint would be to read over that email thread, look at the link i gave jay 17:53 < JayDugger> Okay. I'll comment that bit. 17:53 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/papers/instructions/Automating%20maintenance%20instructions%20study.pdf 17:53 < Aliks> ok 17:53 < kanzure> also there's this data set: http://designfiles.org/~bryan/protocol-online/ 17:53 < kanzure> that's mostly biology instructions, but to be honest i think this should support it in general 17:53 < kanzure> there's nothing outlandishly different between the different domains of instructions anyway 17:54 < Aliks> well there actually is 17:54 < Aliks> like for example... 17:54 < Aliks> in chemistry it's completely ok to say "add reagent to beaker, wait 5 minutes, produces HN03" 17:54 < Aliks> whereas for machines... 17:54 < kanzure> the real issue that i originally had with instruction generation was that i had to make a format that could be used to control machines but also humans 17:54 < Aliks> you would have to say "grind at angle of 35 degrees starting at 3d point (2, 15, 19.6) with pressure 15.6 psi..." 17:55 < kanzure> "add reagent to beaker, wait 5 minutes, produce HN03" <- that's something that your parser should be able to handle 17:55 < Aliks> "using grindermatic version 2" 17:55 < kanzure> how are those different grammars? 17:55 < Aliks> thats two different domains though 17:55 < Aliks> its toooootally difference 17:55 < Aliks> er different 17:55 < Aliks> one has spatial awareness 17:55 < Aliks> and that's just one example of a different kind of awareness 17:55 < kanzure> oh, wait 17:55 < kanzure> well first of all, in the mechanical example, that's not something that the instructions would have 17:55 < kanzure> there's something known as "gcode" for that 17:55 < Aliks> ok, thats what I'm getting at 17:56 < Aliks> this is what i mean by "what sort of data" 17:56 < Aliks> what sort of instruction 17:56 < kanzure> steps that humans will carry out 17:56 < kanzure> but they must be parsed into a form that we could offload the work to a machine in the future 17:56 < kanzure> or maybe not 17:56 < kanzure> you know what, i got stuck with that 17:56 < kanzure> so you should just avoid that 17:56 < kanzure> and we can fix everything later 17:56 < Aliks> well we gotta start with something 17:57 < QuantumG> "salt to taste" 17:57 < Aliks> I dont know where to draw the line 17:57 < Aliks> like, if I'm not saying.. 17:57 < Aliks> "grind at angle of 35 degrees starting at 3d point (2, 15, 19.6) with pressure 15.6 psi..." 17:57 < Aliks> then what am I saying? 17:57 < Aliks> what's the instruction going to be like that I should actually handle? 17:57 < kanzure> Aliks: "connect lego 1 to lego 2 at pin.." 17:57 < Aliks> ok 17:58 < kanzure> or "apply a cold weld to the junction" 17:58 < kanzure> if i had an example corpus i would have solved a lot of this :p 17:58 < Aliks> yes that's a good idea 17:58 < Aliks> start now 17:58 < Aliks> like, whenever you find an example, just throw it in a page somewhere 17:58 < Aliks> lol 17:58 < Aliks> in 6 months it will be huge 17:58 < Aliks> and very useful 17:58 < kanzure> what's wrong with the email thread i linked you to? 17:59 < Aliks> kanzure, it wasnt specific to your domain 17:59 < Aliks> and I dont want to waste work handling the grammar of baking cookies 17:59 < kanzure> focus on the general parser first 17:59 < Aliks> general will takes 56 years 17:59 < Aliks> when do you want this done? 17:59 < Aliks> lol 17:59 < kanzure> putting a cookie in an oven is the same thing as putting anything else in an oven 17:59 < Aliks> ok 17:59 < Aliks> yeah I just didnt know if it needed spatial awareness etc. 17:59 < Aliks> that kind of thing 17:59 < Aliks> if it's just "do x to y" then that's easy 17:59 < Aliks> will work something up 17:59 < kanzure> let's assume no spatial awareness 18:00 < Aliks> just assume version 1 will totally suck 18:00 < Aliks> but by having version 1 you'll have something to point at 18:00 < Aliks> and say "hey we need this other thing" 18:00 < kanzure> do you have skdb installed and working yet? 18:00 < Aliks> no 18:00 < Aliks> not planning on it lol 18:00 < kanzure> do you have an ubuntu or debian machine somewhere? 18:00 < Aliks> no 18:00 < Aliks> not planning on it in the near future 18:00 < kanzure> how would you know if your code is working though? 18:01 < Aliks> can work on an example to test the concept 18:01 -!- transplexity [n=chatzill@c9153a4a.virtua.com.br] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:02 < kanzure> JayDugger: btw, i really appreciate your help on the tutorial :) 18:03 < Aliks> hang on I'll work something quick up to show you what I'm talking about in the next 15 min or so 18:03 < JayDugger> You're welcome. I offered, after all. 18:03 < kanzure> your comments are spot-on btw 18:03 < kanzure> "not sure if this is really how things are supposed to work.." 18:03 < kanzure> well, you're usually right 18:04 < kanzure> it's really meant to be as simple as you're imagining it to be :) 18:08 < JayDugger> Good night, all. 18:08 -!- JayDugger [n=duggerj@pool-173-57-16-175.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has left #hplusroadmap [] 18:12 < kanzure> anything yet? 18:15 < Aliks> about 50% done 18:15 < Aliks> (with a simple test) 18:19 < Aliks> almost 18:23 < Aliks> making an example file for testing purposes 18:26 < Aliks> testing 1 sec 18:30 -!- branstrom [n=branstro@c-171ce055.438-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving..."] 18:31 < Aliks> http://www.aiyosolutions.com/dtnet/instruction_checker.php 18:31 < Aliks> http://www.aiyosolutions.com/dtnet/instructions.txt 18:31 < kanzure> why did you come up with your own format 18:32 < kanzure> i thought i explained that someone already di that for you 18:32 < kanzure> *did 18:32 < Aliks> yeah but this is just for my testing purposes 18:32 < kanzure> but why would you put in more unknowns? 18:32 < kanzure> anyway, can you cp the php file to a .php.txt or something? 18:32 < Aliks> well, I assume instructions come in the same way either way 18:32 < Aliks> done 18:32 < Aliks> just add .txt 18:33 < kanzure> hm 18:33 < Aliks> weird 18:33 < Aliks> one sec 18:33 < kanzure> heh 18:33 < Aliks> its all scrambled let me fix it 18:33 < kanzure> no it's good 18:34 < kanzure> (some of us don't actually use browsers) 18:34 < Aliks> http://www.aiyosolutions.com/dtnet/instruction_checker.php.htm 18:34 < kanzure> er this isn't a parser 18:34 < Aliks> or that 18:34 -!- branstrom [n=branstro@c-171ce055.438-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #hplusroadmap 18:34 < Aliks> no it isnt 18:34 < Aliks> but it works 18:34 < kanzure> so does windows.. supposedly. 18:34 < Aliks> its a checker 18:34 < Aliks> so now like I said, its totally horrible lol 18:34 < Aliks> so point out what I did wrong 18:35 < Aliks> so I can get what you need 18:35 < kanzure> well it's just a giant for loop 18:35 < Aliks> does it matter how its implemented if it works? 18:35 < kanzure> yes 18:35 < Aliks> all line-item processing code ultimately is a for loop 18:35 < kanzure> i'm not dissing for loops necessarily 18:35 < Aliks> line 1, line 2, line 3... 18:35 < kanzure> um 18:35 < kanzure> do you know how token parsers work? 18:35 < Aliks> yes 18:35 < kanzure> and you know that this isn't one, right? 18:35 < Aliks> find the tokens, add to symbol table 18:35 < Aliks> yacc/lexx etc 18:36 < Aliks> seems overkill for this 18:36 < Aliks> we can do something very similar without the headache 18:36 < kanzure> i guess everyone will use their own personal hammer 18:36 < kanzure> yes but someone already went to the trouble with http://yaml.org/ http://pyyaml.org/ 18:36 < Aliks> well this is just to demonstrate the method 18:36 < kanzure> oh well 18:37 < kanzure> sorry i'm not more enthusiastic 18:37 < Aliks> well you werent meant to be 18:37 < kanzure> i'm just jaded and old 18:37 < Aliks> this is a shitty 15 minute thing 18:37 < Aliks> this is why I did it 18:37 < Aliks> now I see the YAML spec 18:37 < kanzure> there's already a php module for yaml 18:37 < kanzure> http://code.google.com/p/spyc/ 18:37 < Aliks> spec is making more sense than the snippets were 18:37 < kanzure> er, yaml module for php 18:38 < Aliks> more importantly though, this shows that an instruction that doesnt have equipment or material in it gets flagged 18:38 < Aliks> which was really the point 18:38 < kanzure> and besides, you're just checking if a material appears in the string (based off of name) 18:38 < Aliks> yes 18:38 < Aliks> thats a very simple first thing to check 18:38 < kanzure> but i thought the idea was to check if the string makes sense 18:38 < Aliks> like I said, this is meant to suck 18:39 < kanzure> based off of a grammar? 18:39 < kanzure> okay 18:39 < Aliks> it will, eventually 18:39 < QuantumG> gah 18:39 < kanzure> well that's why i'm being so much of an ass right now 18:39 < kanzure> i don't think extending this method is good 18:39 < Aliks> I cant build a grammar with no examples 18:39 < kanzure> so it shouldn't be extended 18:39 < kanzure> but i agree that there needs to be something that checks if it makes sense 18:39 < kanzure> the output that you have is good 18:39 < kanzure> i mean, line by line "yep it's good" 18:39 < QuantumG> I just replied to someone off-list and they replied to list, quoting my email in entirety. 18:39 -!- El_Matarife [n=El_Matar@adsl-68-88-72-8.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit ["Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de"] 18:39 < QuantumG> what a dipshit 18:39 < kanzure> QuantumG: aren't people just wonderful 18:40 < Aliks> kanzure, so how would you want it to work differently, give me some input 18:40 < Aliks> but tell me how you want it to work 18:40 < Aliks> not how you want it to do it 18:40 < kanzure> give me a few moments 18:40 < Aliks> k 18:40 < Aliks> output is all that matters, IMO 18:40 < Aliks> everything else is ideological fluff 18:40 < kanzure> um, no 18:41 < kanzure> with that attitude, you'd rather make a .stl instead of a CAD model 18:41 < Aliks> .stl? 18:41 < kanzure> representation has a meaning you know :) 18:41 < kanzure> .stl is a mesh 18:41 < kanzure> CAD models can be converted to a mesh (.stl and then some) 18:41 < Aliks> well it depends on what you're using it for 18:41 < Aliks> I heard you saying yesterday .stl has problems 18:41 < kanzure> yes and if you have a good representation, it's reusable 18:41 < Aliks> so that's a legitimate reason for not using .stl 18:41 < Aliks> but that's still in the realm of "output" in my view 18:41 < Aliks> usefulness 18:42 < kanzure> are you familiar with unit tests 18:42 < Aliks> yes 18:42 < kanzure> anyway, here's what i was thinking: 18:42 < Aliks> sorry, I have an odd style... lol 18:42 < Aliks> my style is... throw together something shitty, then iteratively fix it 18:42 < kanzure> for each line in the instruction set, run the line through a generic parser 18:43 < kanzure> the parser will spit out an abstract tree of steps (there's a class for this in skdb IIRC) 18:43 < kanzure> then, we'll throw that to the wind and have something run through a list of different checks 18:43 < kanzure> i.e. to make sure the structure of the tree is useful, meaningful, whatever 18:43 < Aliks> ok so we would figure out verb connections, subject, object, etc 18:43 < kanzure> i find that instructions tend to be more like an upside-down tree, where the root is the final product 18:44 < Aliks> well, that may turn out to be completely necessary 18:44 < Aliks> but I think we can get something that works reasonably well for what we actually want to accomplish within a matter of days by not overcomplicating it like that 18:44 < kanzure> so, checking that all mentioned materials exist, and that each step has all necessary components, would be a particular check on the abstract tree 18:44 < kanzure> this isn't complicated 18:44 < Aliks> otherwise I'm gonna have to scrape the OED and build an english grammar and all that 18:44 < Aliks> unless you mean something else 18:44 < kanzure> OED? 18:44 < Aliks> oxford english dictionary 18:44 < kanzure> oh boy 18:44 < kanzure> yeah 18:44 < kanzure> no thanks 18:44 < Aliks> lol 18:44 < Aliks> ok so maybe I'm misunderstanding you 18:45 < Aliks> ok so lets add some complexity to this one step at a time... 18:45 < Aliks> " each step has all necessary components", entails? 18:46 < Aliks> we know each step needs materials and equipment. if we want to add complexity to that we need to add some context 18:46 < kanzure> i'm sorry, by "components" i meant that it had tokens that represent or refer to tools, materials, equipment 18:46 < Aliks> right 18:46 < Aliks> ok so here's where I'm at in my thinking about that 18:46 < Aliks> the reason I didn't do any more complicated check yet was partly to illustrate a point... 18:46 < Aliks> given that we know nothing about the materials and nothing about the equipment, ie. have no context 18:46 < Aliks> we cannot say whether there should be 2 or 5 or 12 materials listed 18:46 < kanzure> actually we do know about the equipment 18:46 < Aliks> or any relationship they should have to the equipment 18:47 < kanzure> that's what skdb is all about :p 18:47 < kanzure> that data is available 18:47 < kanzure> we know each part, tool, piece of equipment, how many ports/interfaces it has 18:47 < Aliks> great 18:47 < Aliks> so show me some of that data 18:47 < kanzure> and also acceptable ranges of inputs (like don't give 200V to your atmel AVR) 18:47 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/packages/lego/metadata.yaml 18:47 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/packages/screw/metadata.yaml 18:48 < Aliks> ok now I'm getting a better picture 18:48 < Aliks> startin to come together 18:48 < Aliks> ok so next to-do is to read in YAML using that code from the link you gave me 18:48 < Aliks> and insert that instead of the explode( lines) 18:48 < kanzure> why do it in php? 18:48 < Aliks> and then I can get some more detailed data about the interfaces 18:48 < kanzure> we already have all this code written 18:48 < Aliks> kanzure, because it's what I know 18:48 < Aliks> if you want to wait 4 weeks while I learn some python in my spare time.. 18:48 < kanzure> it won't take you 4 weeks 18:49 < Aliks> I'm more doing this as a test of concept rather than a final implementation 18:49 < Aliks> ok but keep in mind there aer limits on my time 18:49 < Aliks> like.. 1 week learning python is a week I dont write my patent, or a week I dont build a website etc. 18:49 < Aliks> if I can do a concept demo in a language I already know hta'ts more efficient 18:49 < Aliks> we dont have endless time y'know? 18:50 < Aliks> but... 18:50 < kanzure> it's kind of like me storming into your php project and saying everyone should switch to ruby 18:50 < Aliks> I'm not saying you should switch to php 18:50 < kanzure> and then writing code like a madman that doesn't actually do anything 18:50 < Aliks> or even use this 18:50 < kanzure> then why are you bothering 18:50 < Aliks> this is just a demo 18:50 < Aliks> to show concept 18:50 < kanzure> but we already discussed the concept? 18:50 < Aliks> I have spent total 20 minutes so far 18:50 < kanzure> sigh 18:50 < Aliks> if you let it play out a bit I think you'd be less dissatisfied 18:50 < Aliks> but alright 18:50 < Aliks> show me your code 18:50 < kanzure> did you look at my links? 18:50 < Aliks> dude keep in mind I know 0 about your project 18:51 < Aliks> yes 18:51 < kanzure> wtf 18:51 < kanzure> i thought you watched the videos? 18:51 < Aliks> I did 18:51 < Aliks> but that doesnt show me your code base 18:51 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/skdb/core/ is the main "core" of the project 18:51 < Aliks> I know very little about what work has already been done 18:51 < Aliks> ok 18:51 < Aliks> reading 18:51 < kanzure> we have packages that are loaded up into python objects (just because we chose python) 18:52 < kanzure> these python objects are things like legos, screws, milling machines, centrifuges 18:52 < kanzure> these objects are given in the 'packages', which have instructions for building, based off of a list of 'dependencies' 18:52 < kanzure> the "instructions" aren't actually there of course ;-) 18:52 < kanzure> because we only had a few ideas like: 18:52 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/skdb/doc/proposals/action.py 18:52 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/skdb/doc/proposals/pie.py 18:52 < kanzure> and now: http://www.aiyosolutions.com/dtnet/instruction_checker.php.txt 18:53 < Aliks> ok trying to get a handle on all this... 18:53 < kanzure> anything in particular? 18:54 < Aliks> yeah trying to get a sense of what your code all does, and where mine would fit in in your .py 18:54 < randallagordon> aye, that tended to be my stumbling block approaching SKDB...I get the overall idea, but it was difficult determining just what was already functional and available 18:54 < kanzure> if you were to write code that validated instructions and made sure they weren't bullshit or asking for impossible units/things, 18:54 < kanzure> it would probably go in skdb/core/package.py somewhere in the Package class 18:55 < kanzure> because instructions are in a per-package basis 18:55 < kanzure> and i would expect each package to have different instructions :) 18:55 < kanzure> originally i was thinking that we should do instructions with Cheetah templates 18:55 < randallagordon> this new tutorial at least let's newcomers see something that is functional--that's a huge motivator 18:55 < kanzure> it's yet-another-template-system 18:55 < kanzure> it has the usual capabilities. inline python to do last-minute calculations. isinclude statements to import other files 18:56 < kanzure> http://cheetahtemplate.org/ 18:56 < kanzure> so that way you could write something in the instructions that depends on the instructions for another piece of equipment 18:56 < kanzure> like if you're making a pie, you need to put the pie in the oven 18:56 < kanzure> and if you don't have an oven (and you're willing to make one), then the instructions for the oven should be included in an output 18:57 < kanzure> but again this is end-user stuff 18:57 < kanzure> instruction parsing, sense-checking, etc. is much more important 18:58 < Aliks> bleh where is there a 15 minute intro to python's essential functions and features 18:58 < kanzure> Aliks: try this? http://www.poromenos.org/tutorials/python 18:59 < kanzure> i suggest you get a good interpreter/interactive shell.. my favorite is http://bpython-interpreter.org/ 18:59 < kanzure> it's an ncurses python interpreter, so it pops up and tells you member methods, variables, function docstrings, .. 19:00 < Aliks> ok well this is all the technical implementation details which we can worry about another time 19:01 < Aliks> I can always hire some Indian code monkey to translate PHP to Python if necessary 19:01 < Aliks> lets talk logic of how it works 19:01 < Aliks> so I need YAML.. lets see 19:01 < kanzure> well if you use yaml you'll need to rewrite the python code for the classes in skdb 19:02 < kanzure> for instance, we use a "!part" tag in yaml, which maeans that the object is of type Part (defined in skdb/core/part.py) 19:02 < Aliks> I thought you were currently using YAML 19:02 < kanzure> yes 19:04 < Aliks> k afk a sec workin on something 19:06 -!- transplexity [n=chatzill@c9153a4a.virtua.com.br] has joined #hplusroadmap 19:10 < Aliks> Bad group name: m.Bad group name: m. 19:10 < Aliks> any idea what that means? 19:15 < Aliks> doesnt error out for spyc.yaml, so there might be a syntax error in your .yaml 19:15 < Aliks> for lego 19:15 < Aliks> yeah no error for screw 19:17 -!- rmadams [n=rmadams@96.241.54.151] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:19 -!- nchaimov [n=cowtown@c-67-170-144-176.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 19:20 -!- transplexity [n=chatzill@c9153a4a.virtua.com.br] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:21 -!- rmadams [n=rmadams@96.241.54.151] has joined #hplusroadmap 19:25 < kanzure> that error doesn't make sense to me 19:39 -!- Phreedom_ is now known as Phreedom 20:28 < kanzure> http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1483 cathal's dremelfuge .. unfortunately only .stl and .scad files 20:30 < kanzure> if my audio was working i'd see what andrew is saying here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSY9EmXYMBE&feature=related 20:30 < genehacker> it's singu 20:48 < ybit> er, i have that video on my server that is down 20:48 < ybit> same ol stuff 20:48 < kanzure> nothing enew? 20:48 < ybit> nope 20:48 < ybit> just talking about biobricks 20:49 < ybit> giving an intro 20:49 < kanzure> how is that diy? 20:49 < ybit> ..to drew endy and george church 20:49 < kanzure> oh well 20:49 < ybit> there may be more, i closed it after i realized i had already saw it 20:50 < ybit> a super lego? 20:50 -!- Trooem [n=adfasfda@S0106001d724fcb1d.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 20:50 < kanzure> hello Tro 20:50 < kanzure> hrm, i'm really lagging tonight 20:51 < kanzure> ah that's better. forgot that my server rebooted. 20:55 < Trooem> is Tro me? 20:55 < Trooem> hahaha coool 20:55 < Trooem> hey 20:55 < kanzure> i tried typing Tro<tab> 20:55 < kanzure> Trooem: 20:55 < kanzure> there we go. 20:56 < Trooem> yup i gotta watch your vids 20:56 < genehacker> are you sure you didn't run out of blood of the innocents for your time warner connection? 20:56 < genehacker> kanzure? 20:56 < kanzure> i filled it up this morning 20:56 < kanzure> so that can't be it 20:56 < genehacker> oh dear 20:57 < genehacker> so about the hackerspace meeting, you have absolutely no internet there? 20:57 < kanzure> that's right 20:59 < CIA-52> skdb: kanzure * r dd8abea /doc/proposals/ (instruction_checker.php instructions.txt): prototype instruction checker in php (why?) 21:01 < Trooem> you guys should use one of them remote USB remote internet, if it's a isolated place 21:01 < Trooem> but you get like 500mb per month bandwidth so.. 21:01 < kanzure> nah it's not isolated 21:01 < Trooem> haha nvm 21:01 < kanzure> the guy's just lazy to pay for internet 21:02 < Trooem> oh lazy 21:02 < Trooem> no cure for that... 21:02 < kanzure> a kick in the ass maybe? 21:02 < Trooem> maybe maybe. or give him a reason to be greedy about... 21:02 < Trooem> motivate hehe 21:04 < kanzure> ybit: what did you think about the tutorial? 21:04 < kanzure> it's not finished yet 21:04 < kanzure> jay was very helpful today 21:04 < genehacker> perhaps some one going to the meeting has one of those USB phone network internet things 21:05 < ybit> kanzure: ~~ 21:05 < ybit> okay, then if it's not finished, it isn't terrible 21:05 < kanzure> genehacker: or you could just come back to austin 21:06 < kanzure> john griessen (sensor network dood, among other things), james jones (cubespawn), martin bogomolni, les filip, ratha, a few others are going to be there 21:07 < genehacker> that is unlikely 21:07 < kanzure> oh, and jerry rutherford (supreme overlord of the austin robot group) 21:09 < ybit> genehacker: where are you currently? 21:10 < genehacker> Dallas 21:10 < genehacker> currently snowbound too, but that's not an issue 21:11 < kanzure> ybit: was wondering if you had some suggestions about what i should be writing about 21:11 < ybit> er...not atm 21:11 < kanzure> i don't think you've used any of the internal skdb tools yet (in python) 21:12 < kanzure> so your questions are probably as good as any other 21:12 < ybit> thanks for reminding me of what it isi was going to do 21:12 < kanzure> and what was that? 21:12 < ybit> internal sdb tools, such as? 21:12 < kanzure> the classes, functions 21:12 < ybit> .deb of course 21:12 < kanzure> "of course" 21:13 < ybit> you are free to fire me on jan 1 if i'm so terrible to not have it by then 21:13 < kanzure> didn't you say that three months ago? 21:14 < ybit> hah, sure 21:16 -!- klord [n=klord@70.114.211.130] has joined #hplusroadmap 21:16 < ybit> hey klord 21:16 < kanzure> hey klord 21:16 < kanzure> hey, stop reading my brains 21:16 < klord> hey 21:17 < kanzure> Trooem: i met klord at a local austin event, turns out he's into affiliate marketing 21:17 < klord> heh, trying at least 21:18 < kanzure> er, for everyone else, he's a programmer and server admin dood :) 21:18 < genehacker> was he at the last meeting ? 21:18 < kanzure> what meeting? 21:19 < kanzure> i mean, which one 21:19 < genehacker> the one at your house 21:19 < kanzure> nah 21:19 < klord> was that the meeting you sent out to the 3ds list? 21:20 < kanzure> i hosted some fun people on a saturday to hang out and do some programming 21:20 < kanzure> anyway that was a few weeks ago 21:20 < kanzure> Trooem: are you alive? 21:21 < klord> ah, cool 21:23 < QuantumG> "supercold frozen hydrogen" I don't think that means what they think it does 21:24 < kanzure> bose-einstein condensate? 21:24 < QuantumG> nah, they just meant liquid hydrogen 21:26 < genehacker> not solid hydrogen 21:26 < genehacker> *metallic solid hydrogen 21:28 < QuantumG> hmm.. no, seems they had it right 21:28 < QuantumG> http://wise.ssl.berkeley.edu/mission.html 21:29 < QuantumG> "filled with solid hydrogen" 21:29 < QuantumG> 15K 21:36 < Trooem> kanzure: i am. was just talking with the associate, figured out some stuff. 21:37 < ybit> someone visit http://openmanufacturing.org please 21:37 < Trooem> i am going to send you logins to whichever pages we rank, so you can attach google analytics to it. 21:37 < ybit> wanting to see how accurate the google anlytics are. 21:37 < kanzure> google analytics is terribly inaccurate 21:38 < kanzure> i had 200 people visit a page on the 25th, and google registered just 2 views 21:38 < ybit> this is what i gather 21:38 < Trooem> oh 21:38 < Trooem> there's many free tools at that bh forum i think maybe... 21:39 < Trooem> or you can always outsource with an idea. :) 21:41 < klord> blackhatworld.com? 21:41 < kanzure> probably 21:43 < Trooem> klord? affiliate marketer? cool 21:43 < klord> yeah, some interesting stuff on there 21:44 < Trooem> yeah... people aren't that courteous as they suggest in the postings though. haha... 21:45 < Trooem> klord, whats your primary source of traffic? 21:45 < Trooem> is that too personal? 21:45 < Trooem> :)))) 21:46 < klord> nah. i've really just dabbled. i've tried advertising CPA offers with CPC media buys but have never been able to make it work profit wise 21:46 < klord> i'm building a twitter bot system at the moment 21:47 < Trooem> media buys. cool. 21:47 < Trooem> CPA networks cheat people off commission so badly... one needs to cheat them too hahaha 21:49 < klord> yeah, trying to come up with some more cheap/free ways of generating traffic 21:49 < klord> any legit ones? I've tried copeac / azoogle 21:50 < klord> what types of affiliate programs do you do? 21:53 < Trooem> i've dabbled with all kinds but, any good results were from a particular information product 21:53 < Trooem> which was about, well, making money haha 21:53 < Trooem> money sells money 21:53 < klord> yeah, that's what i've heard 21:53 < klord> and see advertised a lot 21:53 < klord> and have also been a sucker in buying 21:54 < klord> lol 21:54 < Trooem> me too, after being suckered in buying different info products, i realized that only trust-worthy ones are people who 'coach' personally 1 on 1. 21:55 < kanzure> hm mplayer is acting up and playing my movies in french today 21:55 < Trooem> people who hide behind printed material is likely to have BS content 21:56 < danielfalck> kanzure: did the movie ratings go from G to R? 21:56 < Trooem> you gotta actually see their faces, be close enough to punch them, and they will indeed say the truth. hahahaha 21:56 < Trooem> hplus members should all go see Avatar. 21:56 < Trooem> that may be our future. LOL 21:57 < Trooem> which alien lifeform would you like to be ? 21:57 < klord> haha, true..makes sense 21:57 < klord> are you local to austin then too? 21:57 < Trooem> no i'm in Canada, vancouver. 21:57 < klord> ah, cool 21:57 < Trooem> i'll be meeting Kanzure soon :). 21:58 < kanzure> uh oh what? 21:58 < Trooem> well hopefully 21:58 < kanzure> oh right 21:58 < kanzure> just making sure i wasn't supposed to pick you up at the airport tomorrow or something 21:58 < Trooem> hahaha 21:58 < klord> lol 21:59 -!- Aliks [n=epicurea@76-14-163-117.wsac.wavecable.com] has quit [Client Quit] 22:00 < kanzure> hm the dvd box says that the languages are english and japanese 22:00 < kanzure> but it wasn't english or japanese 22:00 < Trooem> yup LOL. i got there in Dallas airport once, and i wrote this cab in form of a van, these black guys were driving it, and though i suspiciously got in there with some other folks, i kinda felt i was being kidnapped... are they taking me to a remote place? 22:00 < Trooem> LOL it was my first time there, to hilton hotel for this bootcamp meeting 22:01 < klord> hahah 22:01 < klord> the airport is about the furthest i've ever gone in dallas 22:01 < Trooem> kanzure, if you're using it to play movies, try this player: 22:01 < Trooem> http://www.gomlab.com/eng/GMP_download.html 22:02 < Trooem> never makes errors, and plays it streaming with right setting 22:02 < Trooem> it's good. better than divx... 22:02 < Trooem> player. 22:02 -!- Aliks [n=epicurea@76-14-163-117.wsac.wavecable.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 22:02 < kanzure> mplayer is the standard linux player 22:02 < kanzure> i just need to figure out which title on the disc has the english version 22:03 < Trooem> ow ok 22:03 < klord> what about vlc? can throw pretty much anything at that 22:04 < kanzure> cool, i just had to pass -alang en to mplayer 22:04 < kanzure> mplayer dvd://1 -chapter 2 -softvol -softvol-max 500 -alang en 22:04 < Aliks> http://www.campaignagainstaging.org/ is officially launched 22:04 < Aliks> as of 30 minutes ago 22:04 < kanzure> "the matrix: reloaded" is much better in japanese though 22:04 < kanzure> maybe i should switch back 22:04 < kanzure> congrats Aliks 22:04 < Trooem> you speak japanese kanzure? 22:04 < kanzure> campaign against the aging, huh Aliks? :) 22:05 < kanzure> Trooem: no, but i pretend i do 22:05 < Trooem> me too.. 22:05 < Aliks> lol kanzure 22:05 < Aliks> kanzure, yeah we decided to keep it that way 22:08 < genehacker> I'm in dallas ask me anything 22:13 < klord> oh wait, i did go further than the airport 22:13 < klord> worked in the datacenter for a week in grapevine 22:16 < genehacker> oh that's a shame, you must not have seen the bladerunner tv screen buildings or the church the size of an arcology 22:17 -!- genehacker is now known as genehackersolder 22:18 < Trooem> klord: cool..... 22:19 < Trooem> why is everything in texas so damn big? 22:19 < Trooem> haha hilton hotel there is like.... 22:19 < Trooem> tower of babel 22:20 < Trooem> and i've actually witnessed people wearing cowboy hats mwa hahahaha 22:20 < Trooem> :))))))) gtg research. 22:21 < Trooem> nope gtg pick up some groceries. vancouver is.. cold, damp and frosty. 22:21 < genehackersolder> heh I drive by buffalos and longhorns nearly every day 22:21 < klord> genehackersolder: nah, i didn't really make it out of the hotel and datacenter much except for downtown grapevine 22:21 < QuantumG> anyone know what temperature the reprap melts the working polymer to? 22:22 < klord> Trooem: heh, yeah austin isn't like that so much...but i've seen it somewhere. if you venture about 35 min outside of austin you get that as well as some amazing bbq 22:22 < genehackersolder> try asking #reprap 22:23 < genehackersolder> I think it's about 200 celsius 22:23 < QuantumG> that's what I thought but all I've found is "maximum of 250C" 22:23 < genehackersolder> http://dev.forums.reprap.org/read.php?1,31772,31772 22:23 < genehackersolder> 240C 22:24 < genehackersolder> why do you want to know? 22:24 < QuantumG> just thought it might be significantly lower 22:25 < QuantumG> but that does sound fine 22:25 < genehackersolder> well if you are considering something structural then you have to take softening into account... 22:25 -!- Aliks [n=epicurea@76-14-163-117.wsac.wavecable.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:25 < genehackersolder> *temperature softening 22:26 < QuantumG> yeah, was considering what kind of bacteria would be able to survive being bubbled through hot ABS/HDPE/PLA 22:27 < genehackersolder> oh 22:27 < genehackersolder> why do you want to extrude bacteria in plastic? 22:28 < genehackersolder> what are bacteria doing in plastic there's nothing for them to eat 22:28 < genehackersolder> *unless it's PLA 22:30 < QuantumG> presumably you'd mix some food in too :) 22:31 < QuantumG> just trying to think about programmable bacteria doing something interesting in a 3d printed object.. 22:35 < genehackersolder> well I guess you could put in tiny microchannels then inject bacteria and supply food to them 22:36 < genehackersolder> perhaps you could make a smell dispenser using biobricked e.coli 22:36 < QuantumG> now that's a nice idea 22:37 < QuantumG> reprap needs automatic changeable heads 22:37 < QuantumG> ... presuming that it doesn't already 22:38 < genehackersolder> it doesn 22:39 < QuantumG> so there's a bunch of you on here that are apparently "gene hackers" 22:39 < genehackersolder> there's a design for one that 'works' 22:39 < QuantumG> (or "biohacker") 22:39 < genehackersolder> it's just my nickname 22:39 < QuantumG> xp_prg isn't on right now 22:39 < genehackersolder> there are no true 'biohackers' yet 22:39 < QuantumG> pfft. 22:40 < QuantumG> the kids that compete in the iGEM every year are biohackers in my book. 22:40 < genehackersolder> they're funded by universities 22:40 < QuantumG> so were mainframe hackers back in the day 22:41 < kanzure> xp_prg is a moron 22:41 < kanzure> and should be avoided at all costs 22:41 < QuantumG> diy is orthogonal to hacker 22:41 < genehackersolder> good point 22:41 < QuantumG> diy-bio-hacker is a worthy goal though 22:41 < QuantumG> kanzure: so is there anyone around here who actually hits the wet lab regularly? 22:42 < genehackersolder> dammit why does the iGEM team have to suck here 22:42 < genehackersolder> drazak 22:43 < drazak> yo 22:43 < drazak> yeah 22:43 < drazak> not lately, busy with highschool stuff and college app stuff 22:44 < QuantumG> opinions on biohacking? 22:44 < drazak> as long as you have some idea what you're doing 22:44 < drazak> I don't know how well received this would be, but licensing, maybe 22:44 < drazak> that might be a good thing 22:45 < drazak> as much as I support people wanting to do everything at home, I don't support retards doing biology at home 22:45 < QuantumG> tell me, are there membrane penetrating proteins that you could use to selectively bind bacteria to bacteria? 22:46 < drazak> why? do you want to cause horizontal transfer? 22:46 < QuantumG> well, I'm curious whether it would make a gel 22:47 < drazak> doubt it 22:47 < drazak> if you want to make a gel transform them to make fibronectin or collagen, or both 22:47 < QuantumG> could you explain to me why it wouldn't work? 22:47 < genehackersolder> well if you get them to connect to each other it seems like it should... 22:47 < QuantumG> what am I not understanding? 22:48 < drazak> it would, I suppose, I just think it's awfully roundabout 22:48 < genehackersolder> I guess having them secrete long polymer chains would be better 22:48 < drazak> unless there's a specifc thing you want 22:48 < kanzure> QuantumG: yes you can selectively bind things together 22:49 < QuantumG> well, I'm imagining bacteria holding onto neighbouring bacteria under programmed control. 22:49 < kanzure> antibodies are a popular way. streptavidin is also popular. aptamers less so. 22:49 < drazak> yeah 22:49 < drazak> you could do it that way, I just think it's roundabout for making a gel unless you have a good reason 22:49 < kanzure> streptavidin/biotin 22:49 < kanzure> drazak: why are you making a gel? 22:49 < QuantumG> he was answering my question kanzure 22:50 < genehackersolder> yeah but is the strength of interbacterial bonds strong enough to resist shearing forces on a bunch of them so that they form a gel 22:50 < kanzure> i don't think it would make a gel anyway 22:50 < kanzure> and this is silly 22:50 < drazak> kanzure: he said he wanted to make a gel 22:50 < kanzure> what are you actually trying to do, QuantumG? 22:50 < QuantumG> that's what my question was 22:51 < drazak> kanzure: whcih is what I asked 22:51 < QuantumG> if it's silly, why is it silly 22:51 < kanzure> because it's not a gel 22:51 < genehackersolder> and if you bonded bunches of bacteria together they might die 22:51 < drazak> kanzure: which is why I said it's roundabout, because it's silly 22:51 < drazak> s/might/would/ 22:51 < drazak> you'd get 8 hours max 22:51 < kanzure> that's not why it's silly 22:51 < kanzure> is a moss a gel? 22:52 < drazak> nope 22:52 < kanzure> what about fungi colonies 22:52 < kanzure> QuantumG: are you still on your diy-food-synthesis idea? 22:52 < QuantumG> say you made a bacteria with just 2 membrane penetrating proteins 22:52 < QuantumG> nah 22:52 < kanzure> wouldn't have to penetrate the membrane btw 22:52 < kanzure> there are proteins that can be moved to the outside of the membrane 22:53 < kanzure> sometimes these are called G-proteins (?) when they are on the inside 22:53 < kanzure> "integral membrane proteins" are also worth mentioning 22:53 < QuantumG> each of the proteins joins to another bacteria... so you get a congo line 22:53 < drazak> I think G proteins are different 22:53 < drazak> G proteins are in WNT signalling 22:53 < kanzure> ok i'd trust drazak on the g protein issue 22:53 < kanzure> g proteins are in everywhere IIRC 22:53 < drazak> they're in signalling 22:53 < kanzure> blah 22:53 < kanzure> okie dokie 22:53 < kanzure> so yeah, inside then :) 22:53 < drazak> they're one of the cross connects between all the different types of signalling 22:54 < QuantumG> would you get a congo line? or am I misunderstanding what is possible? 22:54 < drazak> QuantumG: if you want cells to orient a certain way you can use fibronectin 22:55 < kanzure> ohh 22:55 < kanzure> do you mean gel as in, "crosslinked things" only? 22:55 < drazak> QuantumG: we see that most cell types with integrins align along the contours of the protein from how it set 22:57 < QuantumG> ok 22:57 < drazak> kanzure: yeah, found the paper on my desk here, g proteins can activate surface proteins from the inside as one of the end results of wnt signalling 22:57 < QuantumG> selective adhesion is probably what I'm talking about 22:57 < drazak> yea 22:57 < drazak> h 22:59 < drazak> go figure 22:59 -!- thesnark [n=michael@ppp-69-221-4-192.dsl.toldoh.ameritech.net] has quit [""^o^ bed time""] 22:59 < QuantumG> so, and I apologize for asking a silly question, can you engineer a bacterial colony that forms into a film? 23:00 < drazak> well sure 23:00 < drazak> don't even really need to engineer it 23:00 < QuantumG> and would you do it like how I'm suggesting or is that dumb? 23:00 < drazak> kinda dumb 23:00 < drazak> different bacteria can do it 23:01 < drazak> hell if you don't let it grow to colonies, and use a spreader, you'll get a film of bacteria 23:01 < drazak> once it hits colonies you have the film with mountains 23:01 < drazak> that's just an agar plate 23:01 < QuantumG> ok.. but arn't they just bacteria in close proximity? 23:02 < QuantumG> I'm talking about a film you can pick up with a pair of tweezers 23:02 < drazak> oh, well 23:03 < drazak> you could put some fibronectin and gelatin or collagen and gelatin down on some plastic, spread the bacteria, incubate, and you'll have a film of bacteria and matrix 23:04 < randallagordon> I love this channel...where else would I jump back over to catch up after being away for hours and be confronted with "fibronectin" as the first word I see? 23:04 < drazak> heh 23:06 < QuantumG> ok.. say for an iGEM project (which you probably know are almost entirely of this variety) I said "make me a colony of bacteria that glows blue, floats on water, and will change from a star shape to a circle every 30 seconds" 23:07 < drazak> uhm 23:07 < drazak> good question? 23:07 < kanzure> 30sec is a pretty fast timing operation 23:07 < drazak> yeah 23:07 < drazak> it's fucking fantastical 23:07 < QuantumG> feel free to change any of the variables :) 23:08 < drazak> blue isn't hard 23:08 < drazak> I mean, it's not awfully hard 23:08 * randallagordon wants a bacterial desk lamp 23:08 < kanzure> no you don't 23:08 < drazak> floats on water, still not all that hard 23:09 < drazak> changes shape ever time? WTF? 23:09 < genehackersolder> heh just like kombucha 23:09 < randallagordon> I don't? I think I just said I did. ;) 23:09 < genehackersolder> maybe a light pattern 23:09 < genehackersolder> if you could make it like a cellular automata 23:09 < genehackersolder> but it seems a bit far fetched 23:10 * genehackersolder solders an expensive electronic component 23:10 < QuantumG> presumably you'd need sophisticated cell signal dispersal 23:10 < kanzure> danielfalck: can you repeat the steps you used to convert .stl to .step for us in here? 23:10 < drazak> QuantumG: Nah 23:10 < drazak> QuantumG: you could do it like a beating heart, which is just Ca2+ signalling 23:10 < kanzure> randallagordon: it wouldn't give off light 23:11 < danielfalck> STL to SharkFX (commercial demo ACIS modeller)-> convert to faces -> export 23:11 < kanzure> thanks danielfalck 23:11 < QuantumG> to tell the cells in the circle pattern that won't be in the star pattern to move towards the ones that will be in the star pattern 23:11 * randallagordon didn't say he wanted it to light the room...there are much better materials for that... 23:11 < drazak> but I don't think you can do it floating on the top of water 23:12 < randallagordon> Just something to luminesce and look amazingly awesome 23:12 < QuantumG> dont most baterial colonies float? 23:12 < randallagordon> ...conversation starter, shall we say. 23:12 < QuantumG> bacterial even :) 23:12 < drazak> nah, they grow in suspension usually, so it'd be fairly dispersed 23:14 < QuantumG> well, I see the biobricks parts registry has nothing in it about cell adhesion 23:14 < genehackersolder> well to get a beating heart you'd have to get them to synchronise 23:15 < drazak> genehackersolder: that's Ca2+ syncronization 23:15 < drazak> but that won't work on water 23:15 < drazak> needs some sort of ecm support 23:15 < drazak> so that's nized 23:15 < drazak> er, nixed 23:16 < QuantumG> how about algar instead? 23:16 < genehackersolder> does it work like firefly synchronization except with chemicals instead of light? 23:16 < kanzure> algar? you mean agar? 23:17 < drazak> and no 23:17 < QuantumG> ya 23:17 < drazak> not on agar 23:17 < drazak> but it's a bad idea anyway 23:17 < drazak> I was thinking out loud 23:19 < QuantumG> truth is, if you completed that project I'd be asking you if you could do 3d shapes next :) 23:22 < drazak> heh 23:22 < drazak> that's a tough ass project 23:23 < QuantumG> well, the parts don't exist 23:24 < QuantumG> so it's most likely dozens of projects (being that just adding a part is a project) 23:25 < drazak> does the shape change have to be macro? 23:26 < QuantumG> well, if you can make a "bacteria muscle" that'd be interesting 23:26 < drazak> doubt it 23:26 < drazak> don't think you can 23:27 < drazak> not enough organization or specificity 23:27 < genehackersolder> well if you could make bacterial 'photopolymer' that'd be ineteresting 23:28 < QuantumG> what's that do? 23:29 < genehackersolder> it's what stereolithography machines use 23:29 < genehackersolder> it's very expensive 23:30 < QuantumG> Jump to: navigation, search 23:30 < QuantumG> A photopolymer is a polymer that cures, or becomes solid, when exposed to light, often in the ultraviolet spectrum. 23:32 < kanzure> there are also photopolymers that cure in blue 23:34 -!- marainein [n=marainei@220-253-50-79.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #hplusroadmap 23:35 < kanzure> "We are sad to report that Nobel Prize winner Edwin Krebs, for whom the 23:35 < kanzure> Krebs Cycle is named [*], passed away at the age of 91 of heart failure in Seattle, WA [" 23:38 < QuantumG> bacteria that can climb a light gradient.. presumably that's been done 23:40 < genehackersolder> nature didit 23:41 < QuantumG> anyone bothered to reproduce her work? 23:41 < QuantumG> how fast can they swim? 23:42 -!- Aliks [n=epicurea@76-14-163-117.wsac.wavecable.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 23:43 < QuantumG> 60 cell lengths/second 23:44 < QuantumG> I wonder if a (mostly) focused laser point could move that fast.. 23:44 -!- MrClif [n=clif@c-67-189-77-5.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 23:45 < QuantumG> could you watch under a light microscope and lead bacteria around with it? 23:45 < genehackersolder> no idea 23:45 < genehackersolder> yeah 23:45 < genehackersolder> probably 23:46 < QuantumG> kinda sounds like something that I've seen before.... no idea where 23:46 < genehackersolder> there are phototactic bacteria 23:46 < genehackersolder> google bacterial phototaxis 23:46 < genehackersolder> any desoldering experts here? 23:47 < MrClif> I've done some desodering. 23:47 < genehackersolder> I need to desolder an expensive heat sensitive tiny part from an assembly 23:48 < MrClif> "desoder" and heat sensitive don't nessasarly go together. ;-) 23:48 < MrClif> Is it surface mount? 23:48 < genehackersolder> no 23:48 < genehackersolder> through hole 23:49 < MrClif> well for high pin count parts you can use a hot air gun. 23:49 < QuantumG> ahh, it was a nematode C. elegans I saw doing phototaxis 23:50 < MrClif> the slower way is an iron and either a soder sucker or some copper braid. 23:51 < MrClif> generally the better tools put less stress on your parts. 23:51 < genehackersolder> I tried a solder sucker 23:51 < MrClif> How many pins does it have? 23:51 < genehackersolder> 3 23:52 < MrClif> Should be pretty easy. 23:52 < genehackersolder> it's through 2 pcbs 23:52 < genehackersolder> that are really thin 23:52 < MrClif> you use the iron on the front side and the SS on the back and wiggle it till it comes free. 23:52 < genehackersolder> and about size of the component 23:53 < genehackersolder> I can't wiggle it 23:54 < MrClif> another thing to try is wiggle it till while its cooling and then get one pin free. do that for each pin and you might be able to pull it off. 23:54 < drazak> genehackersolder: what is the component? 23:54 < genehackersolder> a 405 nm 150 mw laser diode 23:57 < MrClif> You could also try copper braid. 23:58 < drazak> what kinda tip you got on the iron?