--- Day changed Sun Jul 04 2010
01:11 < brunsgenus> Does anyone know where I could contact a marine biologist?
01:26 < Utopiah> (unrelated) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_artificial_chromosome
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01:37 < brunsgenus_> I need to find a marine biologist who could help me in obtaining an obscure jellfish
01:39 < Utopiah> :-# http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R84LRX8FeBA won't help at all but I (weirdly) like it
01:45 < brunsgenus_> lol
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01:58 < brunsgenus> gm
02:05 < brunsgenus> damn
02:24 < brunsgenus> ybit
02:24 < brunsgenus> your question earlier
02:24 < brunsgenus> about the other sections
02:24 < brunsgenus> ask splicer
02:24 < brunsgenus> I got it from him
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05:05 < JayDugger> Happy Independence Day, everyone.
05:06 < JayDugger> Happy belated Canada Day and happy early Bastille Day, as appropriate.
05:12  * Utopiah just discovered http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastille_Day#Bastille_Day_celebrations_in_other_countries
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06:39 < kanzure> hmm youtube is broken
06:39 < kanzure> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpkQSB_h5lY
06:40 < Utopiah> it's a JS exploit
06:40 < kanzure> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/cluc5/html_injection_vulnerability_in_youtube_comments/
06:40 < kanzure> yep
06:40 < Utopiah> it will spread as long as YT doesnt do anything
06:44 < kanzure> you know.. with an automatic comment poster, we could spam the entire youtube userbase
06:44 < kanzure> how much money do you think could be made from the adsense clicks?
06:45 < JayDugger> I have no idea.
06:45 < Utopiah> Google is good at tracking ... they won't pay for that.
06:45 < JayDugger> How would that work?
06:45 < kanzure> Utopiah: okay, then don't use google :P
06:45 < bdesk> or maybe it can be combined with other attacks, which would be more interesting.
06:45 < kanzure> bdesk: there's not a lot of time before youtube fixes it
06:45 < Utopiah> Internet ads without Google? :/
06:45 < kanzure> Utopiah: yeah, like yahoo's
06:45 < kanzure> or something
06:46 < Utopiah> that's why they face a monopoly threat in France in France
06:46 < Utopiah> well, you can try if you're fast enough but I doubt anybody will pay
07:13 < JayDugger> Engineers Without Borders 
07:13 < JayDugger> http://www.ewb-usa.org/about.php
07:13 < kanzure> my local EWB group was just building water purifiers.. but they weren't very good.
07:13 < JayDugger> That's too bad.
07:14 < Utopiah> JayDugger: http://www.ewb-international.org/ international
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07:31 < JayDugger> Well, back to finding a substitute for Firefox's HaH extension.
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10:53 < kanzure> pmetzger: package received. thanks.
10:56 < pmetzger> so you have the paper copy now?
10:56 < pmetzger> most excellent.
10:56 < pmetzger> is it in good condition?
10:56 < kanzure> yes
10:56 < kanzure> and yes
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10:57 < pmetzger> As I've said, this is perhaps the most interesting/important book in the field of molecular machines. Well worth the read (though a bit of a slog).
10:58 < kanzure> i read the section on design automation, design compilers, etc. and it was very underdeveloped
10:58 < kanzure> but i suppose that's not the purpose of the book
10:58 < pmetzger> no, it isn't.
10:59 < bdesk> which book?
11:00 < bdesk> it is one by drexler?
11:00 < kanzure> yes, 'nanosystems'
11:00 < pmetzger> remember, this was his doctoral thesis. it covers a LOT of material for a thesis.
11:00 < pmetzger> and it was 20 years ago.
11:00 < pmetzger> many topics aren't covered in nearly enough detail, but that's okay.
11:02 < kanzure> pmetzger: have you ever been to the institute for molecular manufacturing?
11:02 < kanzure> is it just some office space?
11:02 < kanzure> http://imm.org/
11:02 < bdesk> i've heard that rice university has good research in this area.  or used to.
11:03 < pmetzger> IMM isn't even office space.
11:03 < pmetzger> it is a virtual organization.
11:03 < pmetzger> bdesk: no, it isn't.
11:03 < kanzure> then why is IMM listed as being in palo alto?
11:03 < pmetzger> bdesk: I can name everyone doing direct research on molecular machines (outside of the molbio world)
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11:03 < pmetzger> It is technically in Palo Alto. :)
11:04 < pmetzger> it has a mailbox there.
11:04 < pmetzger> it exists to be an affiliation for Eric, J. Storrs Hall, Ralph Merkle and a couple of other people.
11:04 < kanzure> pmetzger: go ahead and name all of them, please.
11:04 < pmetzger> and to provide a way to give money to a few of them.
11:05 < pmetzger> Well, lets see. There are the people I just mentioned, there's Damian Allis.
11:05 < pmetzger> There's Jim von Ehr's team.
11:05 < bdesk> i was thinking of this http://cnst.rice.edu/
11:05 < pmetzger> There is Robert Freitas
11:05 < pmetzger> bdesk: smalley specifically denounced drexler.
11:06 < bdesk> oh.  well maybe he is right?
11:06 < pmetzger> bdesk: and their work is all synthetic chemistry, no molecular manfacturing.
11:06 < kanzure> yeah, well, smalley died
11:06 < pmetzger> bdesk: no, he was wrong. 
11:06 < pmetzger> bdesk: most of his criticisms existed because he wanted money.
11:06 < bdesk> kanzure: lol
11:07 < pmetzger> bdesk: at least that's my interpretation. there was a half billion dollar pool of cash and the only way to get it was to make drexler look bad.
11:07 < bdesk> sorry i didn't mean to interrupt the listing
11:07 < pmetzger> bdesk: but anyway, smalley and drexler's debates are online, and almost everything smalley said was already shown wrong by papers drexler did years before smalley's criticisms.
11:08 < bdesk> i see.  i didn't realize this was such a thing.
11:08 < pmetzger> like, for example, smalley kept claiming drexler wanted to "pick up" individual atoms with molecular tongs or some such thing, which was something drexler himself had said was impossible years before smalley claimed it was drexler's idea.
11:08 < pmetzger> it was a very dirty fight.
11:08 < pmetzger> kind of wrecked drexler's reputation among chemists.
11:09 < kanzure> pmetzger: please continue with the name listing
11:09 < pmetzger> well, lets see. there is me, though I'm not important.
11:09 < pmetzger> I think I've covered the major people at this point, really. I mean, there are a few others.
11:09 < pmetzger> and one might count the DNA origami people (though I don't.)
11:10 < pmetzger> but it isn't a large community.
11:10 < pmetzger> Oh, there is Moriarty in the UK.
11:10 < pmetzger> and Freitas has a couple of collaborators in Russia who's names I can't remember.
11:10 < pmetzger> that's just about it.
11:11 < pmetzger> the DNA origami world, if you count it, is a bit larger. Winfree, Rothemund, Seeman...
11:11 < pmetzger> guy at Harvard who I'm embarrassed to say I can't remember the name of right now (senior moment)
11:11 < pmetzger> Harvard Med.
11:12 < pmetzger> by now there probably are some others in DNA origami.
11:12 < kanzure> the russian collaborators are Maksim Astafiev, Diana Alisheva, Natalia Akberova, and Denis Tarasov
11:12 < kanzure> pmetzger: at harvard med? probably george church
11:12 < pmetzger> no.
11:12 < pmetzger> he's not doing DNA origami
11:12 < pmetzger> hang on
11:13 < pmetzger> William Shih
11:13 < pmetzger> that's who I was thinking of.
11:13 < pmetzger> Though the DNA origami world is spreading pretty fast.
11:13 < pmetzger> However, they can't really make machines in the conventional sense with DNA origami yet. Still, it is atomically precise work, so I should count it at some level.
11:13 < pmetzger> It is very different from the vision of machine phase chemistry though.
11:13 < pmetzger> it is all solution phase.
11:14 < pmetzger> anyway, in terms of machine phase stuff, I listed just about all of them above. I probably have forgotten two or three, but that's about it.
11:14 < pmetzger> it isn't a big universe.
11:15 < kanzure> chris phoenix?
11:15 < pmetzger> Chris vaguely counts, yah.
11:16 < pmetzger> he's published real papers, though I don't think he does a lot of active research.
11:16 < pmetzger> but yah, I guess he counts.
11:16 < kanzure> then his ex-wife, christine peterson?
11:16 < pmetzger> Christine doesn't really do any research on this stuff.
11:17 < kanzure> no, i guess not
11:17 < pmetzger> never has. I think the chemistry degree at MIT turned her off to doing real work in the field.
11:17 < pmetzger> Though I could be mistaken.
11:17 < pmetzger> She's a cool person but I don't think she's ever done any real research in the field.
11:18 < pmetzger> I'm sure I'm missing a couple of other people and there are probably a few I don't even know about, but not many.
11:19 < pmetzger> I guess Christian Schafmeister if you stretch things a bunch?
11:19 < pmetzger> I mean, his interests are clearly in the same direction.
11:20 < pmetzger> but he does wet chemistry. some cool stuff with bisamino acids, but I haven't heard of much interesting progress from him in the last decade.
11:20 < pmetzger> I'm stretching here, as I said. I'm sure there must be some others but not many.
11:21 < bdesk> machine phase vs solution phase means in air vs in water?
11:21 < pmetzger> no.
11:21 < pmetzger> machine phase means something very different.
11:21 < pmetzger> it is sort of like inner phase in enzymes only with completely active transport by nanomachines and in high vacuum.
11:21 < bdesk> oh probably http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~rau/phys600/drexler.htm
11:22 < pmetzger> not a great introduction there actually.
11:22 < pmetzger> there's a good explanation in nanosystems.
11:22 < pmetzger> Basically the notion is this:
11:22 < pmetzger> in solution phase, you depend on diffusion and random collisions to get reactants into the correct conformation.
11:23 < pmetzger> this means that unwanted side reactions are possible, that low probability conformations mean slow reactions and/or low yields.
11:23 < bdesk> and yet the alternative to this is not atom placing?
11:24 < pmetzger> you are also in an environment where highly reactive moieties will collide repeatedly with things, thus causing them to react in general before touching the right thing
11:24 < pmetzger> atom-by-atom placing is a deceptive term.
11:24 < bdesk> i don't understand how it is different from machine phase.
11:24 < pmetzger> So imagine that instead of two macromolecules hitting each other at random, they're bonded to handles that are mechanically placed together in a high vacuum.
11:24 < pmetzger> the angle and force are precisely controlled by the machinery
11:25 < pmetzger> it is in high vacuum, so no interaction other than the desired one is possible.
11:25 < bdesk> ok so machine phase vs solution phase means in vacuum vs in air/water/whatever
11:25 < pmetzger> intramolecular rearrangements are a problem for unstable/reactive moieties but not intermolecular reactions.
11:25 < pmetzger> no, vacuum isn't enough.
11:26 < pmetzger> complete control of the geometric interaction of the reactants in high vacuum is the important part.
11:26 < pmetzger> inner phase in enzymes is like this, where there is also nearly complete control of the geometry of the reactants.
11:26 < bdesk> how is this not what you were suggesting smalley was falsely accusing drexler of endorsing?
11:27 < pmetzger> smalley was claiming the notion was to pick up atoms with robot arms
11:27 < pmetzger> that's not the same thing
11:27 < bdesk> ok i see.
11:27 < pmetzger> you can't pick up an individual carbon atom or what have you
11:27 < pmetzger> it doesn't work.
11:27 < bdesk> so you're saying you can have atomic precision by picking up a chuck of atoms by a handle, and this isnt' the same thing as picking up a single atom.
11:27 < pmetzger> but you CAN move around a large chunk of a molecule that is covalently or otherwise bonded.
11:28 < pmetzger> it is very different, yes.
11:28 < bdesk> ok.  and this control is what is meant by machine phase.
11:28 < pmetzger> the control is the important part.
11:28 < pmetzger> it is a large chunk of how enzymes work as I noted.
11:28 < pmetzger> one doesn't need covalent bonds, hydrogen bonds or other strong intermolecular forces are okay.
11:29 < pmetzger> but you can't "pick up" an atom in the general case, and everyone knows that's a silly idea.
11:30 < pmetzger> smalley also made very silly claims about positional uncertainty that drexler already did the calculations for in chapter 5 of nanosystems.
11:30 < pmetzger> I think smalley was incapable of doing those calculations himself or understanding them.
11:30 < pmetzger> but anyway, if smalley had been right about that stuff, biology wouldn't work either.
11:30 < pmetzger> so it was clearly from the start incorrect.
11:30 < pmetzger> it is a long sad story.
11:31 < pmetzger> anyway, "nanosystems" has lots of small technical errors in it, as does any book like it.
11:31 < pmetzger> but overall, it is pretty much dead on accurate.
11:32 < pmetzger> nothing it claims can be done cannot be done. sometimes he has misprints/typos, sometimes he assumes certain molecules are more stable than they are, etc., but nothing that is actually important to the underlying thesis.
11:32 < pmetzger> but very few people have actually read nanosystems, probably because it is such a hard book to read. you need a lot of background.
11:33 < bdesk> the pieces are so small that it is hard to see them.  or expensive to see them.
11:33 < pmetzger> the pieces?
11:36 < pmetzger> ?
11:36 < bdesk> the little gears
11:36 < kanzure> AFMs aren't very expensive.
11:36 < pmetzger> you don't have to see them while you're making stuff.
11:37 < pmetzger> drexler makes a good argument that you can get error rates below 1 in 10^-15 operations
11:37 < pmetzger> which is good enough that you can make subsystems and test them and throw the broken ones away.
11:37 < pmetzger> even much higher error rates would allow that.
11:37 < kanzure> 10^-15 operations? you mean 10^15 operations right?
11:37 < pmetzger> sorry.
11:38 < pmetzger> yah.
11:38 < kanzure> 1 in 0.00000001 operations wouldn't make sense :P
11:38 < kanzure> or 0.00whatever1
11:38 < pmetzger> my brain isn't always 100% on. :)
11:40 < pmetzger> an error rate of 1 in 10^15 or an error rate of 10^-15, clearly not 1 in 10^-15 :)
11:40 < pmetzger> bdesk: you can get a copy of "Nanosystems" for $6 including shipping. I suggest buying one. It is very low effort to acquire.
11:41 < pmetzger> http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0471575186/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&qid=1278268872&sr=8-1&condition=used
11:41 < AJollyLife> the internet makes many things low effort to aqure
11:41 < pmetzger> jolly: it does.
11:41 < AJollyLife> i go to amazon and hit buynow and i am suddely poorer
11:42 < pmetzger> being poorer by $6 is not a big deal though. :)
11:43 < AJollyLife> yeah, id be sad if i had to worry about $6
11:43 < AJollyLife> apparently all my painkillers have expired :(
11:44 < pmetzger> ooh! the price of used copies has gone up!
11:44 < pmetzger> only one available for $3 now.
11:44 < AJollyLife> anyone know if its a big deal if you take expired pain killers?
11:44 < pmetzger> I wonder if I've had an impact on the market.
11:45 < pmetzger> Jolly: it depends on the compound and how expired.
11:45 < kanzure> pmetzger: what about "richard jones"
11:45 < pmetzger> kanzure: in what context?
11:45 < bdesk> get an AFM and look at the painkiller molecules.
11:45 < kanzure> as a molecular machines researcher?
11:46 < pmetzger> oh, he's more or less a skeptic.
11:46 < pmetzger> he doesn't believe machine phase is possible, only synthetic biology I think.
11:46 < kanzure> how about: Malcolm Heggie, Lev Kantorovich, Chris Pakes
11:46 < AJollyLife> ive got tylenol that expired 11/09, and asprin that expired in 7/09.  my abs are still really sore from a workout thursday, and it hurts when i move :(
11:46 < pmetzger> kanzure: I don't know any of those names.
11:47 < pmetzger> jolly: I wouldn't take either for sore muscles, but they're unlikely to harm you if they were stored in a reasonably cool dark place.
11:48 < bdesk> tylenol will hurt you in the liver
11:48 < AJollyLife> ive got some aleve stored at work, but i cant get in there atm.  ive taken some arnica, which usually helps, but it hasnt made that much of a difference today
11:48 < pmetzger> I'd just tough it out. Painkillers will only encourage you to damage the muscle more.
11:49 < pmetzger> the pain is telling you something useful.
11:49 < AJollyLife> very true
11:50 < kanzure> pmetzger: have any papers to add to http://designfiles.org/papers/nanotech/ ? :)
11:50 < bdesk> do the conditions of synthetic biology count as machine phase or as solution phase?  or is it somewhere inbetween?
11:50 < pmetzger> I count it somewhere in between.
11:50 < pmetzger> And I think synthetic biology research is legitimately important and fascinating.
11:50 < pmetzger> I track the field.
11:51 < pmetzger> kanzure: pakes seems to be doing some interesting work with probes now that I look at the page, but no, hadn't heard of pakes before.
11:51 < pmetzger> kanzure: none of my own yet. Give me two years.
11:51 < bdesk> so "doesn't believe machine phase is possible, only synthetic biology" would mean that he doesn't think that you can get closer to machine phase than biology has already accomplished?
11:52 < kanzure> it takes about a year to get a paper published (after you have written it) unless you dump it on arxiv or something
11:52 < pmetzger> bdesk: I get that impression, yes. His opinions are a bit weird.
11:52 < pmetzger> bdesk: he claims to be very sympathetic to the field and then has... weird arguments why certain things cant work even though in some cases they've been experimentally demonstrated already
11:53 < pmetzger> bdesk: sometimes argues no one has an idea of how to do certain things that there are published papers on.
11:53 < pmetzger> the problem with the field is that there are just too few people doing work.
11:53 < pmetzger> kanzure: I'm an Arxiv kind of guy.
11:53 < pmetzger> spiritually. :)
11:54 < bdesk> what about open access peer reviewed publishing?
11:54 < kanzure> bdesk: i haven't timed it :) haven't done any yet, either.
11:54 < pmetzger> I like open access peer reviewed publishing.
11:54 < kanzure> the paper going through the pipeline with my name on it was coauthored with some more conventional authors ;)
11:54 < pmetzger> Open access in general.
11:54 < kanzure> and it was for the proceedings of a particular conference
11:54 < pmetzger> peer review in general.
11:55 < pmetzger> the intersection is, IMHO, the future.
11:55 < pmetzger> lack of open access slows scientific progress.
11:55 < pmetzger> people should make their raw data etc. available too.
11:55 < bdesk> i like a lot of things about academia, but the closedness of the journals is not one of them.
11:56 < pmetzger> the journal publishing model is broken.
11:56 < pmetzger> there are lots of good papers no one will ever read because they're locked inside journals that they can't get to.
11:56 < pmetzger> so they re-do research that they could instead build on.
11:57 < bdesk> honestly i think that redoing research is undervalued, but that is probably not a popular opinion in here.
11:57 < kanzure> bdesk: sorry, but most research is not described adequately
11:57 < pmetzger> reproducing research is undervalued.
11:57 < pmetzger> redoing it as though it had never been done is different
11:58 < pmetzger> research in some fields is reasonably well described. I never had much trouble trying to re-do organic chem procedures.
11:59 < pmetzger> though more often than one expected they just failed utterly, probably because the original authors hadn't actually done what they thought they had.
11:59 < pmetzger> or lied.
11:59 < pmetzger> some journals are notorious for this...
12:02 < pmetzger> bb later
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12:54 < bdesk> "Determinants of the development time. Stage 1a: Brownian assembly of medium-scale blocks. Stage 1b: Mechanosynthetic assembly of small building blocks. Stage 2: First-generation solution-based systems. Stage 3: Inert environments, diamondoid materials."
12:54 < bdesk> we are working on stage 1a, or this roadmap is no longer relevant?
12:58 < kanzure> 1a sounds like something i've seen a few times
12:58 < kanzure> like brownian assembly of jigsaw puzzle pieces on a microscopic scale
13:00 < JayDugger> Anyone here ever
13:00 < JayDugger> whoops.
13:00 < JayDugger> Sorry: hit "enter" instead of "delete."
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13:12 < JayDugger> kanzure--do you use UZBL?
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13:25 < kanzure> JayDugger: actually, no, but i should be using it.
13:25 < kanzure> i think ybit or jrayhawk might be using uzbl
13:26 < ybit> kanzure's answer for me
13:27 < JayDugger> Ah.
13:27 < ybit> it is used on occassion when i want a quick answer and don't want to wait on firefox's tabs to load
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13:28 < JayDugger> I finally have a Fingerworks keyboard again reliably working with my desktop.
13:29 < JayDugger> Unfortunately--this breaks a favorite FF extension, LoL, which assigns numbers to links while you hold down a user-defined key. (defaults to space)
13:29 < kanzure> JayDugger: konqueror has a similar feature (for number links)
13:30 < kanzure> i wrote a greasemonkey script once to do that in firefox, specifically for google results
13:30 < kanzure> and then used an autoscroll feature :P
13:30 < brunsgenus> I wanted to get that keyboard for severe arthritis 
13:30 < JayDugger> I suspect the Fingerworks keyboard sends key-down and key-up as soon as you touch the key.
13:30 < JayDugger> yeah, they were totally worth it.
13:30 < JayDugger> Much cheaper than surgery.
13:31 < JayDugger> This breaks LoL, but my alternatives are all relatively over-powered: vimperator, keysnail, or so on.
13:32 < JayDugger> UZBL kept coming up in searches, so I thought I'd ask about it here.
13:32 < bdesk> which keyboard is good?  i am using the dell one that came with my desktop and i will get rsi before my dissertation is finished.
13:32 < kanzure> bdesk: i like the old IBM Model M's
13:32 < brunsgenus> http://www.alphagrips.com/frontbigdummmy.jpg
13:32 < kanzure> http://www.mikecase.net/ModelM/IBM-Model-M-Keyboard.jpg
13:32 < JayDugger> Assuming you don't want to get a specialty keyboard?
13:32 < bdesk> i will google the fingerworks one.
13:33 < JayDugger> Don't waste your time unless you've several hundred dollars to buy one on eBay.
13:33 < JayDugger> They went out of production some years ago.
13:33 < bdesk> oh they are out of business
13:33 < brunsgenus> http://grinandlearnit.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/right-hand-keyboard.jpg
13:33 < JayDugger> No. Apple bought them.
13:34 < JayDugger> all kinds of specialty keyboards exist.
13:34 < bdesk> they have "ceased operations as a business"
13:34 < brunsgenus> the ultimate form of laziness: http://cybernetnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/03/OddKeyboard.jpg
13:34 < kanzure> brunsgenus: that's called "the data hand"
13:35 < JayDugger> I like the Kensington keyboards.
13:35 < brunsgenus> its called i love being lazy
13:36 < kanzure> i want to try accelerometer fingertips :/
13:36 < kanzure> at some ridiculously high sampling rate
13:36 < JayDugger> You'll have to test keyboards to fund where your budget and wrists intersect.
13:37 < JayDugger> Anyhow, back to cutting down a tree.
13:37 < JayDugger> Good afternoon, everyone.
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14:10 < bdesk> i wish that the enthough hackers would improve python's packaging system rather than create their own enthought python distribution.
14:11 < bdesk> enthought*
14:12 < brunsgenus> I wish I could find a pet store or someone selling this fucking jellyfish
14:13 < fenn> power rangers was the weaksauce american clone of the much cooler japanese show 
14:16 < brunsgenus> america>japan
14:16 < brunsgenus> therefore anything it makes its better than japan's
14:19 < bdesk> brunsgenus: you want to get pluripotency like christopher reeve http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/153890
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14:40 < fenn> i'm so disappointed that nobody's bothered to scan and upload nanosystems
14:40 -!- Alystair [Alystair@bas1-toronto10-1279558942.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #hplusroadmap
14:43 < bdesk> but then how would eric drexler make monies?
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14:50 < fenn> i hope you're not being serious
14:51 < bdesk> "Never a rich man, Drexler is barely solvent. He recently moved from his three-bedroom ranch house in Silicon Valley into a modest apartment."
14:51 < fenn> yeah well people buying $3 books on amazon isn't gonna change that
14:51 < bdesk> lord british made hundreds of thousands in high school selling $5 disks
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15:28 < bdesk> wired magazine seems to give drexler crap for showing most of the machinery in this picture as smooth surfaces instead of as molecules http://www.wired.com/wired/images.html?issue=12.10&topic=drexler&img=2
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15:34 < brunsgenus> lol
15:34 < brunsgenus> my fraternity brother got mad at me
15:35 < brunsgenus> apparantly he started an iphone repair business and i didnt know he owned it and i put on it that you could do it for free and get the instructions off of the internet
15:35 < bdesk> for blowing all your frat beer funds on jellyfishes?
15:35 < brunsgenus> >frat
15:35 < brunsgenus> lol 
15:36 < brunsgenus> also bdesk i would never waste beer money
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15:42 < kanzure> comments on sonia arrison's article: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1483328
15:44 < brunsgenus> "Ex-bio engineer here. I do not think the DIY bio community exists or will ever gain traction. "
15:45 < bdesk> i think the article read too much like a press release about what the 'biohacker' community wishes it was, so the comments are backlash.
15:45 < brunsgenus> eh
15:45 < brunsgenus> fuck them
15:45 < brunsgenus> I don't see why what they say matters....
15:46 < bdesk> brunsgenus: agreed!
15:47 < brunsgenus> Honestly the only thing that makes experimenting at home difficult is funding. People can pool money together to make a collaborative team and then money is no longer an issue.
15:47 < brunsgenus> Also the permits is an issue but rules are meant to be broken.
15:48 < brunsgenus> are an issue*
15:48 < brunsgenus> bdesk: if you want, I might be able to get people to take this site offline if you want
15:49 < bdesk> O_O
15:49 < brunsgenus> wat
15:49 < fenn> not "the only thing" - acquiring reagents and biotech stuff is not straightforward outside of an institution
15:49 < brunsgenus> yeah i guess
15:50 < brunsgenus> I am just getting into this stuff anyhow.
15:50 < kanzure> german podcast on biohacking http://chaosradio.ccc.de/cre143.html
15:50 < fenn> brunsgenus: you were suggesting ddos'ing ycombinator because of some comments you disagreed with?
15:51 < brunsgenus> fenn, I never said such thing.
15:51 < bdesk> http://www.wired.com/wired/images.html?issue=12.10&topic=drexler&img=2
15:51 < bdesk> oops
15:51 < bdesk> Biohacking ist noch eine recht neue Disziplin bei der alternativen Erforschung unserer Welt.
15:51 < kanzure> in related news, it was sonia arrison who wrote the article that Hacker News is replying to
15:51 < brunsgenus> >doesn't speak german
15:51 < kanzure> sonia recently dropped off of the humanity+ board of directors because of sexism
15:53 < cluckj> Ex-bio engineer here. I do not think the DIY bio community exists or will ever gain traction. For one, I don't understand how someone could do labwork in their garage. Two I don't understand how people could afford mandatory tools like PCR machines. Three, the results from your labor don't seem tangible or exciting. At least with the computer hacking movement in the 60s and 70s you could hold a computer in your hand, you could see
15:53 < cluckj>  improvements in speed and performance as you tinkered. When programming, the output of your code would be realized relatively quickly. Bio is too complicated, too tedious, and too expensive to ever be fun or support a hacker community.
15:53 < cluckj> I can't tell if that's a troll or not
15:54 < bdesk> i doubt it is a troll.
15:54 < cluckj> I really think it might be
15:54 < brunsgenus> I don't think it is a troll, trolls don't get involved in this stuff from what I have seen.
15:54 < cluckj> a pcr isn't a mandatory machine
15:54 < cluckj> the dudes who invented pcr did it by hand
15:55 < cluckj> and uh
15:55 < cluckj> there's a pretty big hacker community
15:55 < bdesk> i'm not saying i agree with the comment.
15:55 < cluckj> haha
15:55 < kanzure> "I'm guessing this is on the heals of the Kickstarter Bio-Incubator post from before. It's an interesting concept. You might want to check out: DIYbio.org for information on the capital efficient biotech movement." - nick pinkston (cloudfab.com guy)
15:55 < cluckj> :)
15:55 < kanzure> "diybio.org for information on the capital efficient biotech movement"
15:55 < kanzure> what a load of fucking shit
15:56 < kanzure> fenn: diybio.org has turned into a "capital efficient biotech movement"
15:56 < kanzure> :(
15:56 < bdesk> that is instead of saying "poor man's biotech movement"
15:56 < bdesk> capital efficient is a euphemism.
15:56 < cluckj> lol
15:56 < kanzure> bdesk: what's happening behind the scenes is everyone is making a "diybio startup"
15:56 < fenn> well at least they didn't say 'organization'
15:57 < cluckj> there's plenty of organization
15:57 < fenn> oo i wanna do a diybio startup too me me me me
15:57 < cluckj> boston and nyc have been going for at least 2 years
15:58 < fenn> they've barely (if at all) progressed beyond the meetup group stage
15:58 < fenn> might have even gone backwards
15:58 < fenn> i havent been keeping track the last few months
15:58 < bdesk> kanzure: well if the diy bio really wants to be like the homebrew club as its PR suggests, then you can't be surprised that people are wanting to make startups as the next step.  it works with the analogy.
15:58 < cluckj> I've been keeping track fora while
15:58 < kanzure> fenn: all that talk in the thermocyclers thread from back in 2008 or ealrly 2009 went absolutely nowhere
15:59 < kanzure> and instead, tito jankowski decided to take the opposite of everyone's advice
15:59 < cluckj> and been pestering mac to have regular meetings
15:59 < kanzure> bdesk: i'm not surprised.. just a little upset that most of these people are better at PR than actually doing shit
15:59 < kanzure> "oh let's make it a business" uh, no, how about you demonstrate you're not a moron?
16:00 < cluckj> I'm not sure diy bio is like the homebrew computer club
16:00 < bdesk> maybe the ones doing the PR and marketing are just the most visible by their nature?
16:00 < kanzure> bdesk: so?
16:00 < kanzure> the guys who are good at doing stuff are not the ones doing the "diybio startups" ;)
16:00 < cluckj> haha
16:00 < cluckj> kanzure that's not true!
16:00 < kanzure> cluckj: orly
16:01 < cluckj> there's a couple people in boston who are doing some Serious Shit
16:01 < kanzure> let's hear it, then.
16:01 < bdesk> they probably have huge plans.
16:01 < kanzure> an iphone being hooked up to a microscope is not Serious Shit
16:01 < cluckj> http://www.keegotech.com/
16:02 < kanzure> no content on the site
16:02 < cluckj> oh
16:02 < cluckj> haha he doesn't have it setup yet
16:02 < bdesk> "battery that runs on dirt"
16:02 < cluckj> he's doing microbial fuel cell stuff
16:02 < kanzure> meh
16:02 < cluckj> I think Ian_Daniher is doing things too
16:02 < kanzure> i don't think you understand
16:02 < kanzure> these are companies
16:03 < cluckj> his company is run out of his basement iirc
16:03 < bdesk> I remember a feynman interview when he was brought to a military meeting and they asked him how they could make their tanks run on dirt as fuel.
16:03 < kanzure> cluckj: you can run a company anywhere
16:03 < cluckj> what do you mean?
16:04 < cluckj> well
16:04 < cluckj> I mean if you don't mean companies, then what?
16:05 < kanzure> i thought we were talking about diybio
16:05 < cluckj> yes
16:05 < cluckj> he comes to DIY Bio meetings
16:05 < kanzure> sigh
16:05 < cluckj> oh
16:05 < cluckj> I see what you mean
16:06 < kanzure> it's just a little back stabbing i guess
16:06 < cluckj> I think diy bio is too loose an organization right now to really be doing things together
16:06 < cluckj> yeah
16:06 < cluckj> they're getting there, though
16:06 < kanzure> if i would have known that the majority of the diybio community was just "capital efficient biotech industry" in disguise, i would have only peripherally involed myself
16:06 < kanzure> *involved
16:06 < fenn> i love the follow up comments to "ex-bio engineer here"
16:06 < cluckj> haha
16:06 < cluckj> kanzure then make it something else :)
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16:07 < kanzure> cluckj: mac and jason have successfully "latched down" the brand
16:07 < cluckj> yeah
16:07 < cluckj> they're getting down on it even more lately
16:08 < kanzure> i mean, in a way, this explains a lot of the weird social behaivor in the community
16:08 < kanzure> like why everyone does projects "in secrecy"
16:08 < kanzure> it's because they are trying to do a company..
16:08 < kanzure> and are not really interested in just being the best they can be
16:09 < kanzure> frankly it's just all a little misleading
16:09 < kanzure> not everyone is like this, of course.
16:09 < cluckj> hehe
16:10 < cluckj> that's kinda depressing if it's true
16:10 < kanzure> cluckj: from an anthropological perspective, you should be aware that the community didn't form around the idea of starting companies and holding secrets against each other
16:10 < kanzure> just fyi.
16:10 < cluckj> kanzure well...
16:10 < cluckj> not entirely
16:10 < cluckj> it does have a strain of "profiteering" in it
16:10 < kanzure> hm?
16:11 < bdesk> it looks like diy bio was a success and now it will have some IPOs!
16:11 < kanzure> bdesk: hah, no.
16:11 < cluckj> it's tempered by the presence of open-sourceness
16:11 < cluckj> lol
16:11 < kanzure> cluckj: i think that might be just because of me yelling at the top of my youngs
16:11 < kanzure> *lungs
16:11 < cluckj> haha
16:11 < cluckj> don't be so modest :P
16:11 < kanzure> only a few people on the mailing list have ever actually commited code to an open source project
16:12 < kanzure> meredith, len, jonathan cline, i'm definitely missing a few
16:12 < cluckj> open-source doesn't have to mean F/OSS
16:12 < kanzure> cluckj: uh..
16:12 < kanzure> well if we're working on the OSI definitions it does.
16:12 < kanzure> in 2008 i wrote a long email about this
16:12 < cluckj> openwetware is an example
16:12 < kanzure> openwetware is just a wiki with a bad name
16:12 < cluckj> not a very useful place, though
16:13 < bdesk> cluckj: you mean the creative commons licenses?
16:13 < cluckj> yes
16:13 < cluckj> diy bio is still in its infancy
16:13 < fenn> god would you guys please talk about something useful
16:14 < kanzure> cluckj: i'd like to go on record saying you're wrong. :P
16:14 < cluckj> kanzure k :)
16:14 < kanzure> i'll stop now
16:14 < fenn> cluckj: do you have any closing comments?
16:14 < cluckj> kanzure why?
16:14 < kanzure> cluckj: because i know you're bullshitting, heh
16:14 < bdesk> that is not a closing comment lol
16:15 < kanzure> or maybe you're not exposed to the same set of information that i am
16:15 < cluckj> ehhh, I might be, but I'm not sure how much
16:15 < cluckj> yeah
16:15 < cluckj> you've been around for longer than I have
16:16 < cluckj> we should have a chat sometime about the history of diy bio :D
16:16 < kanzure> at first i was complaining about how i was systematically excluded from stuff.. but then fenn convinced me it didn't matter
16:16 < kanzure> or something :P
16:16 < cluckj> haha
16:17 < fenn> i have poor memory
16:17 < fenn> but i dont see how being involved in openpcr or whatever would have mattered
16:17 < bdesk> kanzure: they exclude you because you put your sekrits on the internets.
16:17 < kanzure> my precious sekrits?!
16:17 < cluckj> not ur sekrits........
16:17 < fenn> my precious openpcr secrets!
16:18 < kanzure> hahah
16:18 < kanzure> fenn: openpcr got over-funded via kickstarter, btw
16:18 < kanzure> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/930368578/openpcr-open-source-biotech-on-your-desktop
16:18 < kanzure> $10k instead of the $6k they asked for
16:18 < cluckj> oh damn
16:19 < kanzure> kickstarten mah .. i can't even do it.
16:19 < kanzure> they don't even release designs
16:19 < kanzure> http://openpcr.org/build-yours/
16:19 < cluckj> if they get that working, and open-sourced, then I'll take back saying that diy bio is in its infancy
16:19 < kanzure> "openpcr" my butt. openbutt
16:19 < cluckj> I'm not opening your butt
16:20 < kanzure> cluckj: see also http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/peyer/hello-world-modern-biotechnology-for-high-schools?pos=52&ref=popular
16:20 < kanzure> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1040581998/biocurious-a-hackerspace-for-biotech-the-community
16:20 < kanzure> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/405545346/lasersaur-open-source-laser-cutter-0
16:20 < cluckj> lol
16:20 < kanzure> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/701662757/makerbeam-an-open-source-building-kit?pos=1
16:20 < cluckj> gfp in e coli isn't revolutionary
16:20 < kanzure> $18k pledged of $10k goal?
16:20 < kanzure> neither is a thermocycler.. especially a giant hunk of metal
16:20 < cluckj> carolina biological sells a kit for that on the cheap
16:21 < kanzure> cluckj: all that the community was supposedly doing was write instructions and designs and plans for building equipment
16:21 < kanzure> but instead we have people doing this totally round-about way
16:21 < kanzure> of starting a company, raising money via kickstarter, on the *chance* that they will release some usable design files
16:21 < cluckj> hrm
16:21 < kanzure> but knowing tito, it's probably just shit in Google Sketchup
16:22 < bdesk> maybe it will be animated.
16:22 < kanzure> hah
16:22 < kanzure> bdesk: doing a dance?
16:22 < bdesk> dancing pcr
16:22 < cluckj> awesome
16:22 < bdesk> it could be the corporate logo for their new corp
16:23 < kanzure> bdesk: http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q116/Moochamoocha/Funny_Pictures_Animated_Dancing_Ban.gif
16:23 < cluckj> also does anyone know when people started using biocurious?
16:23 < kanzure> cluckj: 'using'? what?
16:23 < cluckj> where did that come from
16:23 < kanzure> biocurious.org was registered 2009-12-10
16:23 < cluckj> hah
16:23 < kanzure> joseph jackson came up with the name
16:23 < kanzure> but it sprouted out of livly.org
16:24 < cluckj> my friend grant used "bio-curious" back in 2008
16:24 < kanzure> which has gone commercial.. it says it's a non-profit... but yeah.
16:24 < kanzure> cluckj: oh? that's neat
16:24 < cluckj> when joe started talking about it we were laughing
16:24 < kanzure> i suspect 'biocurious' is one of those things in the subconcious or something
16:24 < cluckj> yeah
16:24 < kanzure> or maybe he directly stole it
16:24 < kanzure> 'stole'
16:24 < cluckj> whatever, it's hilarious no matter who says it
16:25  * kanzure nods
16:25 < cluckj> I doubt he stole it, nobody read that blog he posted it on except for jason bobe
16:28 < kanzure> eri is stalking me on the web, i think
16:28 < kanzure> she has some weird thing against me
16:28 < kanzure> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1486565
16:29 < cluckj> weird
16:29 < kanzure> quite telling when people sign their names with "cofounder" instead of "maker" or something
16:29 < cluckj> lol
16:29 < fenn> if somebody posted my project to hacker news i'd probably say something too
16:29 < cluckj> $200/mo is ridiculous imo
16:29 < kanzure> cluckj: agreed
16:30 < kanzure> i also think $30k is ridiculous
16:30 < fenn> why is it ridiculous?
16:30 < fenn> gotta deal with landlords and renovate buildings and all that
16:30 < kanzure> if you're targetting individuals, you should keep costs down
16:30 < cluckj> yes
16:31 < fenn> i dont really see how that's possible
16:31 < fenn> i mean, cost per month is basically $2k/n
16:32 < fenn> minimum
16:32 < kanzure> nobody said the gym membership model was a good idea
16:32 < kanzure> it was quite peculiar actually
16:32 < kanzure> joseph was *very* against the idea of charging membership fees
16:32 < kanzure> until he started to be a part of biocurious
16:33 < fenn> how do you fund it then?
16:33 < kanzure> well, originally part of the biocurious idea was to be a biotech incubator
16:33 < fenn> well apparently that didnt happne
16:33 < kanzure> yeah..
16:33 < fenn> i mean, VC doesn't carea
16:33 < fenn> care*
16:33 < kanzure> there's shitloads of biotech VC :P
16:34 < kanzure> you could easily make an argument that it would be better if different startups were working in the same biotech dev house
16:34 < fenn> they want a business plan, estimated quarterly earnings projections, etc etc
16:35 < fenn> to VC "collaboration" means "IP loss"
16:35 < bdesk> hacker news is by a guy who has that kind of model going on with software startups right?
16:35 < kanzure> bdesk: yes, it's called ycombinator
16:35 < bdesk> i mean the multiple startups in the same dev house
16:35 < kanzure> i don't know if they physically work in the same location
16:36 < kanzure> but you can ask in #startups (that's where all the yc-funded peeps hang out)
16:36 < fenn> they do
16:36 < fenn> i should go over there some time, it's like a block away
16:36 < kanzure> yes, you should
16:36 < kanzure> a lot of them are totally orgasmic over your data logging, btw
16:36 < fenn> o rly
16:37 < kanzure> fenn: "IP loss".. blah
16:37 < kanzure> aren't we.. uh.. er.. doesn't joseph go around talking about why IP is so terrible?
16:37 < fenn> lol "Git for Computer Scientists"
16:38 < fenn> yeah, joseph is juggling a few different hats
16:38 < fenn> or at least that's my impression
16:38 < bdesk> nice metaphors lol
16:38 < kanzure> fenn: have you visited halycon molecular yet?
16:39 < fenn> no, i dont care about halcyon
16:39 < kanzure> any particular reason? i applaud your decision for various reasons
16:39 < fenn> 1) sfw, an electron microscope, woo. 2) what relationship do i have with them 3) sequencing is already good enough
16:40 < kanzure> either they are really good at publicity or something's actually going on there worth knowing about (more than TEM/STM/AFM-based DNA sequencing)
16:40 < kanzure> not sure why they are so well funded, either
16:42 < kanzure> fenn: while i'm nagging you about bay area stuff i should mention that on tuesday mac and eri gentry are doing a diybio session for singularity university
16:43 < kanzure> HA the number of folks with the passwords 'singularity2035' and 'infomorph' in the community is staggering
16:48 < bdesk> i don't know what halcyon is, but sequencing is not already good enough.
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16:48 < kanzure> halycon is a "super secret" company doing electron microscopy for DNA sequencing
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16:54 < fenn> what is "infomorph" from?
16:55 < bdesk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infomorph
16:55 < bdesk> http://med.stanford.edu/sgtc/journal_club/talk_andregg.html
16:55 < bdesk> i see that they hope this will do 150kb at a time.  this is a big deal compared to the 'next gen' (last gen) sequencing that do short reads.
16:56 < bdesk> also they will try to get the methyl modification (epigenetic modification) of the genome.
16:56 < bdesk> and there is hoped to be no haplotyping problem.
16:57 < bdesk> and they hype a speed of 6 min / genome.
16:57 < cluckj> lol
16:57 < bdesk> if all of these happen, then it would be a useful improvement over the current sequencing.
16:58 < fenn> dunno how you would deal with that much data
16:58 < bdesk> maybe if they build it, it will come.
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17:02 < brunsgenus> fuuuuck
17:03 < brunsgenus> http://www.movies-links.tv/index.html
17:03 < brunsgenus> wtf is this faggotry?!
17:04 < lepton> wtf indeed
17:05 < QuantumG> so it's been 4 years since the Genomics X-Prize was announced.. they've now got a sponsor, Archon, there's 8 registered teams.. the deadline is late 2013.. I wonder when this race is actually gunna start.
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17:06 < bdesk> QuantumG: there was an internets rant about how they measure the 'cost' which is part of the condition of winning.
17:07 < bdesk> i think it's stupid to have a contest where part of the condition is the cost, unless you do it like stock cars or something.
17:07 < bdesk> so therefore i think that the genomics xprize is stupid.
17:07 < QuantumG> what's "recurring cost" mean?
17:08 < bdesk> i think they should just have a standing offer to sign a contract with any company that will do X genomes with Y quality for Z dollars in W time.
17:08 < bdesk> if the company fails then sue them like with a normal contract.
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17:10 < QuantumG> if by recurring cost they mean marginal cost then I think they're being generous.  I don't think a genome sequencing machine should cost more than a few $ of electricity to do a genome.
17:11 < bdesk> the conditions of the contest are crap
17:11 < QuantumG> why?  cause it's hard?
17:11 < bdesk> no, because it is poorly defined.
17:13 < bdesk> anyway i already said how i think they should go about this if their goal is to spur gene sequencing research by giving money away.
17:14 < QuantumG> meh, when you've proven you can spur innovation I'm sure the folks with the money will listen to you.
17:16 < bdesk> yes, and if i'm so smart why am i not rich, etc.
17:16 < QuantumG> http://www.politigenomics.com/2010/06/the-cost-of-doing-sequencing.html
17:17 < kristianpaul> kanzure: hey
17:17 < kristianpaul> are you followting qi mail list?
17:17 -!- r1776 [~LOL@li48-79.members.linode.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
17:17 < kristianpaul> if, i think you should reply the thread about 3D scanning and formats
17:17 < kristianpaul> :)
17:18 < bdesk> QuantumG: that is the rant i was thinking of.
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17:19 < QuantumG> I'm sure its a case of damned if you do and damned if you don't.  One of my biggest announces of the Ansari X-Prize was that Rutan spent $20M to win a $10M prize and then never flew a single commercial customer.
17:20 < QuantumG> annoyances*
17:20 < bdesk> hah
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17:48 < kanzure> http://kurzweilai.net/ has a new look
18:04 < fenn> this is cool, photos of families around the world sitting next to a week's groceries http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1626519_1373664,00.html
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19:14 < fenn> i wonder how rob carlson manages to get into a series of presentations with drew endy, bonnie bassler, craig venter, and george church
19:14 < fenn> like, who the hell is rob carlson?
19:15 < cluckj> who the hell is craig venter
19:16 < fenn> President Obama's Bioethics Commission is July 8-9 in Washington DC.
19:16 < fenn> craig venter at least seems to have done something
19:17 < cluckj> oh dear
19:17 < cluckj> I forgot about that
19:17 < bdesk> http://www.synthesis.cc/bio.html
19:17 < bdesk> he is probably a good speaker.
19:18 < bdesk> even if i did a good research i would not be invited to this kind of thing because talk like a nerd
19:19 < cluckj> hehe
19:36 < fenn> anyone ever heard of "rainbow mansion"?
19:37 < fenn> just wondering if i'm going to be stumbling into a den of vampires
19:38 < bdesk> no and i am afraid to google it
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20:10 < genehacker> I'd be more worried about the twilight fans fenn, I hear they bite
20:18 < fenn> kinky
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21:03 < genehacker> I also hear they have a hatred of P2P
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21:29 < kanzure> fenn: rob carlson is an ass. i think that's why.
21:34 < kanzure> `Biology "apps" could give you the ability to jump higher, run faster, grow stronger and live longer. They could even make us smarter.`
21:36 < AJollyLife> id buy those apps
21:38 < kanzure> look out for my diyhplus app platform
21:42 < kanzure> you know, the best thing that could happen to aubrey right now
21:42 < kanzure> is probably a fake death
21:42 < kanzure> "life extension researcher dies in horrible, flaming death"
21:42 < kanzure> then two weeks later "life extension researcher beats odds"
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22:00 < JayDugger> Good morning, everyone.
22:01 < Utopiah> 'ning
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22:41 < Bruns> oh hai
22:45 < AJollyLife> nah, that would be force field researcher...
22:46 < Bruns> wat
22:46 < AJollyLife> that was from an earlier conversation
22:46 < AJollyLife> whats up?
22:46 < fenn> "life extension researcher extends life. today, in what would have otherwise been a horrible flaming death, aubrey degrey decided not to cook scrambled eggs, and instead took the dog for a walk."
22:47 < Bruns> nothing
22:47 < Bruns> just sitting around
22:47 < Bruns> so even though the whole jellyfish thing seems silly to you all i have a friend who is going to attempt to research this with me
22:48 < Bruns> I am in contact with a store that sells jellyfish that will be sending me the jellyfish soon, shits SO cash
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23:17 < Bruns> durp
23:18 -!- niftyzero1 [~miron@dsl081-070-214.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
23:19 < niftyzero1> http://www.brainpreservation.org/index.php?path=letter
23:19 < niftyzero1> sign!
23:19 < Bruns> whats it for
23:19 < Bruns> I don't read
23:19 < Bruns> I just act
23:20 < niftyzero1> alternative to cryonics by using plastic infusion
23:21 < Bruns> its asking for me to donate money I don't have, thus inhibiting me from signing...
23:21 < Bruns> sorry
23:22 < niftyzero1> you don't need to donate
23:23 < Bruns> actually, it goes from $2-$100
23:23 < Bruns> no $0
23:24 < niftyzero1> ?  I don't get any donation request... the petition link goes to: http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/brainpreservation/
23:24 < niftyzero1> I just see Name, Email, Comments
23:24 < niftyzero1> what page did you end up on?
23:24 < Bruns> oh, at the top it says the signature was recorded...way way up where it is hard to notice
23:25 < Bruns> then in the center of the page it is asking for donations
23:25 < niftyzero1> ah... I guess they are being a bit aggressive with panhandling...
23:25 < Bruns> yeah, it seems kinda cheap 
23:26 < Bruns> makes me want to take my signature back, almost
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