--- Log opened Sun Dec 19 00:00:08 2010
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06:23 < kanzure> morning
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06:45 < JayDugger> Good monring.
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08:19 < delinquentme> whoop!
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08:52 < augur> kanzure: when can we eliminate sleep
09:06 < uniqanomaly> augur: you can start here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nootropic
09:06 < augur> :P
09:07 < augur> im just getting increasingly irritated by the lack of commercially available H+ technology
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09:07 < uniqanomaly> and there won't be any
09:07 < augur> :(
09:07 < uniqanomaly> with 10 years for FDA drugs approval
09:08 < augur> ok well, non-commercially available hackware too
09:08 < augur> or at least commercially available in japan
09:09 < uniqanomaly> http://www.sens.org/
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09:09 < uniqanomaly> this gives some hope
09:10 < augur> yeah, but not the kind of hope i want right now
09:10 < augur> i just want to not have to sleep and to be able to interface directly with my computer. is that so hard to ask? :(
09:10 < JayDugger> Yesl
09:10 < JayDugger> Harder even than accurate spellihg.
09:11 < augur> i would even accept a much improved UI of some sort, provided it make interaction significantly more efficient
09:11 < uniqanomaly> augur: if you tell me that you using time you already have optimally i just won't belive you
09:12 < augur> optimally for my goals :p
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09:12 < augur> its more that im a linguistics grad student and a coder and there are many many tasks that i feel would just be so much improved with a better UI
09:13 < augur> not that i couldnt write something that would capture the whole screen and provide a new UI, right, but theres also something to having different physical inputs too
09:13 < augur> and alas i cant manufacture hardware yet
09:13 < augur> reprap isnt at the point of printing wires and circuits
09:14 < uniqanomaly> what would you manufacture if you could anyway
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09:14 < uniqanomaly> EEG suck, thats for sure
09:15 < augur> probably just some experimental chording keyboards for mode keys, or some sort of drafting-table like multitouch screen (not that i cant do that without a printer, but)
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09:17 < uniqanomaly> well, having artificial intelligence would make interaction 'significantly more efficient'
09:18 < uniqanomaly> no need for hacking shitty bodies to interact with machines
09:18 < uniqanomaly> well, machines to interact with shitty bodies
09:19 < klafka> if i had a reprap that could manufacture wires and circuits i'd build badass edm party decorations
09:19 < klafka> it wouldn't really change how i do research 
09:20 < klafka> at least in the short term
09:20 < kanzure> reprap for alternative keyboards and computer interfaces has been a surprisingly untapped field so far
09:20 < kanzure> i'm a little surprised that nobody is printing up weird looking keyboards, there's obviously tons of configurations to try out
09:20 < augur> kanzure: see?
09:20 < augur> the problem is wires and circuits
09:20 < kanzure> keyboards are mostly plastic
09:21 < augur> yeah but you NEED wires and circuits!
09:21 < augur> i suppose you could build those yourself tho
09:21 < kanzure> electronics for keyboards is already well commoditized, so you can buy the parts for $5 to $10 +shipping
09:21 < JayDugger> Actually...you can buy laser projected keyboards.
09:21 < augur> but this is sort of what i mean, you know? i feel like theres actually not much of a trend to build h+ technology
09:21 < klafka> what is h+ technology?
09:21 < kanzure> augur: part of the problem is that the h+ people have been drowning in bullshit for a while now
09:21 < JayDugger> Any alternative has to beat the incumbent.
09:22 < kanzure> augur: the whole concept of "build stuff" is new to them
09:22 < kanzure> plus, the people who do build stuff, were annoyed by the original amounts of bullshit ;)
09:22 < JayDugger> Speculation is intoxicating and unproductive.
09:22 < kanzure> augur: that doesn't mean there isn't demand though
09:22 < augur> klafka: surely any technology explicitly designed with the goal of upgrading humans. now ofcourse its limited to trivial shit like optimization of how we interact with the environment through pre-existing modes, but its not just about what it does but what the motivation is behind it
09:22 < kanzure> many people max out on qwerty and dvorak isn't that fascinating to them, for instance
09:22 < augur> kanzure: oh im sure theres a demand, we just need to make it happen
09:23 < JayDugger> max out on qwerty and dvorak?
09:23 < klafka> kanzure my understanding was that dvorak isn't necessarily better than qwerty it was based on old failed trials
09:23 < augur> this is true, klafka
09:23 < kanzure> klafka: really? i hear some people claiming 250+ wpm on dvorak
09:23 < kanzure> i max out at 120 wpm on qwerty
09:23 < klafka> idk 
09:24 < klafka> i just heard that the claims of dvorak's research were somewhat spurious
09:24 < JayDugger> I think those trial depend on whether you actually touch-type, or just hunt-and-peck with speed.
09:24 < kanzure> i also seem to max out at about 12 characters per second on qwerty
09:24 < kanzure> i don't know what the upper limit on quick-twitch finger interaction is
09:25 < kanzure> *intentional quick-twitch finger interaction
09:25 < augur> can i just comment also that im reading A Fire in the Deep and these.. pack minds, they're rather disturbing. and Andromeda's fractured consciousness is even worse
09:26 < augur> i want the multiplicity of attention, but not the mutliplicity of identity :|
09:26 < JayDugger> HUMOR--http://landoflisp.com/
09:26 < JayDugger> Scroll way down for the comic.
09:26 < klafka> hmm
09:27 < klafka> not familiar w/ that book
09:27 < augur> lol
09:27 < klafka> although there are some cool peter watts books that talk about the idea of pack minds
09:27 < augur> shame im already intimately familiar with lisp
09:27 < augur> well, one particular dialect of it
09:31 < klafka> man somehow i don't see how lisp makes  your code bug free, are they just hawking functional programming / side effect free programming?
09:32 < JayDugger> I've not read the text.
09:32 < augur> it doesnt make your code bug free
09:32 < augur> but haskell almost does x3
09:35 < kanzure> augur: can i abuse yuo in the future for figuring out AutoLisp stuff
09:35 < kanzure> i will eventually need to incorporate that stuff (or similar APIs) into lolcad
09:35 < kanzure> *you
09:35 < augur> i odnt know autolisp
09:37 < kanzure> isn't it just lisp but with various libraries
09:37 < kanzure> (i'm implying that i don't know lisp)
09:37 < augur> i dont know
09:37 < augur> also, the dialect of lisp im familiar with is scheme
09:37 < augur> which has significant differences from common lisp
09:38 < augur> afk
10:00 < kanzure> used ct scanners and MRI machines http://www.zettamed.com/equipment.shtml
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10:11 < augur> lol
10:11 < augur> dangerous
10:18 < klafka> thats what i was thinking
10:21 < augur> i mean in the hands of non-medical professionals, ofcourse
10:21 < augur> big magnets = scary
10:22 < klafka> CT scanners can be scary regardless apparently
10:25 < uniqanomaly> wtf are you talking about
10:25 < uniqanomaly> recreational drugs in hands of organized crime are scary
10:25 < uniqanomaly> handed over to them by governments
10:25 < uniqanomaly> this is fucking scary
10:28 < uniqanomaly> also monopoly for other drugs in hands of physicians
10:29 < uniqanomaly> like retards don't believing you actually can improve memory in normal individual by nootropics
10:30 < klafka> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-ray_computed_tomography#Typical_scan_doses
10:30 < klafka> CT scans just have high radiation doses
10:32 < augur> uniqanomaly: that too
10:42 < kanzure> "diybio: never clone alone"
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12:19 < kanzure> "free radicals may not be the cause of aging" http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=10/12/19/167212
12:29 < uniqanomaly> o srsly
12:44 < kanzure> slow science manifesto http://slow-science.org/
12:44 < kanzure> also a pdf http://slow-science.org/slow-science-manifesto.pdf
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13:25  * epitron likes slow science
13:25 < epitron> i like the idea of humanity not racing each other to take a flying leap off a cliff
13:26 < epitron> that's interesting that oxidants aren't the cause of aging...
13:27 < epitron> mitochondria are pretty likely involved though
13:27 < epitron> did you ever see that talk by the guy who selectively bred fruit flies over 20 years to increase their lifespans?
13:27 < epitron> and tracked all the DNA mutations along the way?
13:29 < epitron> apparently the most important lifespan-extending mutations were in the mitochondria
13:46 < archels> "free radicals may not be the cause of aging" should probably be taken with a grain of salt
13:49 < epitron> good point :)
13:49 < archels> "slow science" is hopelessly naive
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13:49 < archels> There's always competition between who publishes first.
13:49 < epitron> idealism is not naivety
13:50 < epitron> if we don't strive to be better, we're just going to rot.
13:51 < Tyrant91101> its not striving to be better though
13:51 < Tyrant91101> its striving to be slower
13:51 < epitron> don't make me explain slow science :)
13:51 < Tyrant91101> and while thats great for developments of massive fundamental theories
13:51 < Tyrant91101> the only way to move science forward at this point is to speed up the process and involve far more people than those in the 'ivory tower' of science
13:53 < epitron> did you read slow-science.org?
13:54 < Tyrant91101> yep
13:54 < epitron> the 2nd sentence says that they like the accelerated science
13:55 < Tyrant91101> i dont see the difference between what they call 'accelerated science' and what they are calling for
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13:56 < Tyrant91101> the only meaningful sentence in that manifesto is "Society should give scientists the time they need, but more importantly, scientists must take their time."
13:57 < Tyrant91101> and the problem with giving scientists the time they need is that almost all science done now is profit driven
13:57 < Tyrant91101> even in universities
13:57 < Tyrant91101> i could argue, ESPECIALLY, in the universities
13:58 < epitron> corporatization has crept into everything
13:58 < epitron> it's corrupting society
13:58 < Tyrant91101> it's not corrupting anything, it's society that is doing the corrupting
13:58 < epitron> that's another issue :)
13:58 < epitron> what?
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13:59 < epitron> i think the metalevels of our labels and definitions are getting confused here.
13:59 < Tyrant91101> these corporations that are "corrupting" science and government are only the response to societies that are, for lack of a better word, becoming extremely consumerist
14:00 < epitron> sure, that's what i was saying
14:00 < Tyrant91101> during the height of the cold war, american and even soviet society was dedicated tos cientific innovation in an attempt to beat out the other
14:01 < Tyrant91101> as a result, many corporations like Bell spent billions in pure research
14:01 < Tyrant91101> on their own accord
14:01 < epitron> so let's call this the goal of society
14:01 < epitron> right now the goal is to consume all the resources on the planet
14:01 < epitron> well, there's that one...
14:01 < epitron> which is baked into the system...
14:01 < epitron> and then there's the competing goal of trying to save the planet
14:01 < Tyrant91101> but now all society cares about is ipads and iphones
14:02 < Tyrant91101> theres no incentive, culturally or economically, to do pure research
14:02 < epitron> i'm having trouble getting a bead on you :)
14:02 < Tyrant91101> and instead it is left up to universities, where the most intelligent people are turned into managers and beauracrats
14:02 < epitron> you're moving around too fast
14:02 < epitron> maybe you could just give me your general ideology
14:02 < epitron> then we could go from there
14:03 < Tyrant91101> i have no ideology.
14:03 < Tyrant91101> ideology is for the masses so they can try to wrap their heads around an extremely complex issue
14:03 < Tyrant91101> i try to be a 'pragmatist'
14:04 < epitron> okay
14:04 < Tyrant91101> i think that everything from science to politics should be about setting goals and achieving those goals with something closer to the scientific method
14:04 < epitron> ah, okay
14:04 < epitron> so you're a rationalist
14:04 < uniqanomaly> Tyrant91101 i guess you'd like move to china
14:05 < epitron> haha
14:05 < Tyrant91101> no
14:05 < epitron> get with the winning team!
14:05 < epitron> america's circling the drain
14:05 < Tyrant91101> while i guess i am to some degree a rationalist, i think there are still some basic ideologies people must subscribe to
14:05 < uniqanomaly> srsly
14:05 < uniqanomaly> china is like nicely managed company
14:05 < Tyrant91101> i for one value intellectual and other freedoms
14:06 < epitron> uniqanomaly: where the managers filter your internet and execute you if you complain
14:06 < uniqanomaly> yeah, freedom of religion for the win
14:06 < uniqanomaly> and you get US society where >40% don't believe in evolution
14:06 < uniqanomaly> what a shame
14:06 < epitron> well, they are products of the educational system
14:07 < epitron> you can't blame 'em
14:07 < Tyrant91101> you can blame their parents
14:07 < epitron> they were also products of the educational system!
14:07 < uniqanomaly> oh yeah of course it's not their fault they're idiots
14:07 < Tyrant91101> the education system is a product of them as well
14:08 < epitron> mmm... not really...
14:08 < epitron> the "factory educational system" was setup to create useful cogs
14:08 < epitron> and limit the education, so that workers didn't get demotivated
14:08 < Tyrant91101> haha you think the workers are blameless for that?
14:09 < epitron> the more educated workers get, the less they want to be your slaves
14:09 < Tyrant91101> any and every societal construct in the history of man is held up only by man
14:09 < Tyrant91101> any nonsense that a person is willing to tolerate is nonsense that they are willing to uphold
14:09 < epitron> hmmm
14:09 < epitron> personal responsibility depends on being aware of the thing you're responsible for
14:10 < epitron> i mean, you're right to some extent
14:10 < Tyrant91101> With the internet where it is today, it is a crime not to be aware
14:11 < Tyrant91101> half a century ago, you could be forgiven for not knowing how congress is infringing on your rights
14:11 < epitron> the internet is so full of information...
14:11 < epitron> you can get stuck in a myriad of backalleys
14:11 < Tyrant91101> today, with news.google.com and other aggregators you have no excuse
14:11 < Tyrant91101> ofcourse
14:11 < epitron> there's tons of garbage on it
14:11 < Tyrant91101> noise is always a problem
14:11 < uniqanomaly> 'it is a crime not to be aware'
14:11 < uniqanomaly> except wikileaks.org taken down by us gov
14:11 < uniqanomaly> of course not officially
14:11 < Tyrant91101> uniqanomaly, it gets a lot worse than that
14:11 < epitron> of course not :)
14:12 < Tyrant91101> when i say something about transhumanism i get people complaining about 1984 and Brave New World
14:12 < epitron> does news.google.com really give you useful information? :)
14:12 < uniqanomaly> epitron: yeah right
14:12 < Tyrant91101> yet they ignore they fact that that's already whats happening around the world in cities like New York and London
14:12 < uniqanomaly> usefull as in fox news
14:12 < uniqanomaly> useful*
14:12 < epitron> i find the news outlets tend have a lot of interesting but ultimately not useful things
14:12 < Tyrant91101> epitron, news.google.com can serve its purposes
14:13 < Tyrant91101> for stuff like what's hapenning in congress its a good enough aggregator for the big things
14:13 < epitron> have you ever read "Complexity and Information Overload in Society"?
14:13 < epitron> it's a two-part paper by Heyligen
14:13 < epitron> http://web.archive.org/web/20070103091059/http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/papers/Info-overload.pdf
14:13 < epitron> (that's both parts)
14:14 < Tyrant91101> thank you for the link
14:14 < epitron> the signal to noise ratio and the speed at which things spread is making it hard to make smart decisions
14:14 < epitron> things are meming around before anyone can verify them
14:15 < epitron> once the meme has saturated the network, if the verification comes back false.... how do you fix it? :)
14:15 < epitron> sensationalism and corporatism are pretty corrupting
14:16 < Tyrant91101> thats the fault of society
14:16 < Tyrant91101> when the acidity of a lake rises dramatically you cant blame the bacteria for evolving to live in that new environment
14:16 < epitron> the social protocol and ideologies?
14:17 < Tyrant91101> what a crappy analogy but i think you understand my point
14:17 < epitron> "society" is kinda vague
14:18 < epitron> hah.. i don't get the lake thing actually... the did the bacteria cause the lake acidity to rise, or did they just adapt to it and they're the only things left?
14:18 < Tyrant91101> they adapt
14:18 < Tyrant91101> thats the only way they can survive
14:18 < epitron> okay..
14:18 < epitron> and that maps to society?
14:18 < Tyrant91101> only the corporations that adapt to the consumerism in society are the ones that survive
14:18 < epitron> ah
14:19 < epitron> well, they survive in the short term...
14:19 < Tyrant91101> and yes society is very broad
14:19 < epitron> but the system is pretty close to the point of failure
14:19 < Tyrant91101> so is life
14:19 < epitron> as david suzuki puts it, we're in a car headed at 90mph at a brick wall, and the people in the car are arguing about who gets to sit in the front seat
14:20 < Tyrant91101> the evolution of technology always requires us to be headed at a brick wall
14:20 < Tyrant91101> its just that as technology evolves, we push the brick wall further back 
14:20 < epitron> until...
14:20 < epitron> "Heyligen[2] , Alvin Toffler, and others have written about how ephemeralization, though it may increase our power to solve physical problems, can make non-physical problems much worse. Increasing system complexity and information overload make it difficult and stressful for the people who must control the ephemeralized systems. This can negate the advantages of ephemeralization."
14:20 < Tyrant91101> one day, perhaps soon, we will hit such a brick wall before we can push it back via more technological development
14:21 < epitron> our brains have not grown
14:21 < epitron> there's only so much complexity we can handle
14:21 < Tyrant91101> i think that way of looking at it is very naive and over simplistic
14:21 < epitron> it's true though :)
14:21 < Tyrant91101> as the amount of information grows so do our systems
14:22 < Tyrant91101> maybe one day the rate of information growth will exceed system growth
14:22 < epitron> what systems?
14:22 < Tyrant91101> but all you can do is postulate that, not prove it afaik
14:22 < Tyrant91101> once again system is a broad word :0
14:22 < Tyrant91101> :)
14:22 < epitron> i know
14:22 < epitron> i'm still having trouble getting a bead on you
14:22 < epitron> :)
14:22 < Tyrant91101> when you have a village with a few dozen people, you may only needo ne leader to process all that information and act on it
14:23 < Tyrant91101> but when you have hundreds of millions of people, the system of leadership that was once the village elder becomes a massive beauracracy
14:23 < epitron> and we all know how well bureaucracies can manage information
14:23 < Tyrant91101> that CAN process all that information
14:23 < Tyrant91101> well it appears to work better than anarchy
14:24 < epitron> you lose sight of the big picture
14:24 < Tyrant91101> which is what i would envision hapening once the system can't support the information
14:24 < epitron> our way of tacking the complexity is to break it down into smaller and smaller subdisciplines
14:24 < epitron> then summarize and aggregate
14:24 < epitron> but at some point there's so many layers and so much information loss that it stops working
14:25 < epitron> if our brains were designed like bureaucracies, we'd have gone extinct a long time ago
14:25 < Tyrant91101> but that's a false analogy
14:25 < epitron> it's more of a joke
14:25 < Tyrant91101> and our brains are to some extent designed like that
14:26 < epitron> the brain is designed more like pixar
14:26 < epitron> there are cross-hierarchical links all over the place
14:26 < Tyrant91101> just like our brains evolved to process the information we needed to survive, so do beauracracies evolve
14:26 < Tyrant91101> and just like the brain, beauracracies may not do everything the most efficient way possible
14:26 < epitron> a bureacracy requires lateral communication to go up the hierarchy and back down
14:26 < epitron> which kills the signal
14:27 < Tyrant91101> huh?
14:27 < Tyrant91101> i dont understand
14:27 < epitron> if you're in accounts, and i'm in marketing, i can't talk to you... i have to talk to my boss
14:27 < epitron> then he talks to your boss
14:27 < epitron> or rather to his boss
14:27 < epitron> who talks to your boss
14:27 < Tyrant91101> ah i see
14:28 < Tyrant91101> well there are similar heirarchies in the brain
14:28 < Tyrant91101> nervous system i mean
14:28 < epitron> there are hierarchies
14:28 < epitron> but they are functional ones :)
14:28 < epitron> and if lateral communication is necessary, the brain just grows links 
14:28 < Tyrant91101> just as functional as that of a beauracracy
14:28 < epitron> hmmm
14:28 < Tyrant91101> you're confusing functionality with efficiency
14:29 < epitron> haha
14:29 < epitron> i suppose
14:29 < epitron> although that is a function
14:29 < Tyrant91101> the american beauracracy works, just like the brain
14:29 < Tyrant91101> but neither are efficient
14:29 < epitron> but the point i was making is that nobody can see the big picture
14:29 < Tyrant91101> you don't need to
14:29 < epitron> i don't think this discussion is going anywhere :)
14:29 < epitron> let's change angles
14:30 < Tyrant91101> no single bacterium in a colony in that lake knows the big picture of that colony, but the colony survives and evolves to meet the needs of survival
14:30 < epitron> that's emergent behaviour
14:30 < epitron> and efficiency is critical
14:31 < epitron> if they can't spread plasmid rings fast enough, the colony could die
14:31 < Tyrant91101> fast enough does not mean the fastest possible spreading
14:31 < epitron> you get that in bureaucracies too.. if they can't make decisions fast enough, they could miss out on things.
14:31 < epitron> or people could get bored waiting for their boss to get back to them
14:31 < epitron> and they could forget what they wanted tod o
14:31 < epitron> and it could go undone
14:31 < uniqanomaly> or drugs approval takes 10 years
14:32 < uniqanomaly> -> FDA
14:32 < Tyrant91101> the stomach could have been designed to send signals that you're no longer hungry in seconds, yet it takes 20 minutes
14:32 < Tyrant91101> its not the fastest and most efficient, but its fast and efficient enough
14:32 < epitron> well, maybe your stomach has to make sure you ate something nutritious
14:32 < epitron> it has to start breaking it down
14:32 < uniqanomaly> Tyrant91101: not really
14:32 < epitron> if you ate styrofoam you should eat something else
14:32 < uniqanomaly> 20 minutes is about digestion
14:33 < Tyrant91101> epitron, you can eat whatever you want, you can eat pure cellulose and the stomach will tell you you're full
14:33 < clemux> is it the stomach's role to send satiety signals?
14:33 < epitron> haha
14:33 < epitron> there's a few things at play there
14:33 < Tyrant91101> that you've eaten something and that you're full, yes
14:33 < epitron> cellulose is actually used by the bacteria in your gut
14:33 < Tyrant91101> but about nutrition and all that, no
14:33 < epitron> it's nutritious to them, and they are nutritious to you
14:34 < Tyrant91101> hmm i thought we couldnt break down cellulose
14:34 < epitron> we don't, but the gut bacteria need it
14:34 < epitron> that's how cows work
14:34 < Tyrant91101> anyway, you could drink water and your stomach will tell you you're full
14:34 < epitron> that's why you're supposed to eat lots of fiber
14:34 < epitron> water is nutritious :)
14:34 < epitron> it's one of the most important nutrients
14:35 < epitron> you can go a month without food... but only 3 days without water
14:35 < Tyrant91101> that's irrelevant
14:35 < epitron> well, why don't you tell me your point instead of these analogies :)
14:35 < Tyrant91101> your body has other methods of telling you you need water
14:35 < Tyrant91101> i already said my point
14:36 < Tyrant91101> the stomach messaging your brain isn't the most efficient way possible
14:36 < Tyrant91101> but its efficient enough for survival
14:36 < epitron> that's what you were saying??
14:36 < epitron> i think the stomach thing is a bad example :)
14:36 < Tyrant91101> most organism, and systems in general, evolve only to be as efficient as needed
14:36 < epitron> but yes, that's true
14:36 < epitron> (good examples are hard)
14:37 < Tyrant91101> going back to the information thing, we'll evolve our systems to handle whatever information comes our way
14:37 < Tyrant91101> perhaps we'll get overloaded and hit that brick wall soon
14:37 < Tyrant91101> but you cant say that for certain
14:37 < Tyrant91101> anyway nice talking to you
14:37 < Tyrant91101> i gotta go to a diybio meeting
14:37 < epitron> okay...
14:37 < Tyrant91101> ill be back online in an hour or so
14:37 < epitron> ttyl!
14:37 < epitron> have fun
14:37 < Tyrant91101> thank you
14:42 -!- Tyrant91101 [~tyrant@24.24.171.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
14:51 < kanzure> "Leonard Hayflick is keeping aborted fetal tissue samples in his garage" what?
14:52 < kanzure> epitron: yes, the selectively-breeding-drosophila person is michael rose who now works for genescient
14:52 < epitron> kanzure: wewt :)
14:53 < epitron> that guy is pretty awesome
14:54 < epitron> "two excellent advices for wielding too much power:
14:54 < epitron>    1. Do less; don't do everything that seems like a good idea, but only what you must do.
14:54 < epitron>    2. Avoid doing things you can't undo."
14:55 < epitron> seasoned coders know those two lessons well :)
14:56 < epitron> (that's for tyrant91101 when he gets back)
15:12 < kanzure> "Palo Alto, CA - December 20, 2010 - The Foresight Institute, a nanotechnology education and public policy think tank based in Palo Alto, has announced the winners of the prestigious 2010 Foresight Institute Feynman Prizes in Nanotechnology."
15:13 < kanzure> "The winner of the 2010 Feynman Prize for Experimental work is Masakazu Aono (MANA Center, National Institute for Materials Science, Japan) in recognition of his pioneering and continuing work, including research into the manipulation of atoms, the multiprobe STM and AFM, the atomic switch, and single-molecule-level chemical control including ultradense molecular data storage and molecular wiring; and his inspiration of an entire generation of resea
15:13 < kanzure> "The winner of the 2010 Feynman Prize for Theory is Gustavo E. Scuseria (Rice University) for his development of quantum mechanical methods and computational programs that make it possible to carry out accurate theoretical predictions of molecules and solids, and their application to the chemical and electronic properties of carbon nanostructures."
15:13 < kanzure> i can't seem to find this on their site
15:15 < epitron> ooo, theory AND experiment prizes
15:15 < epitron> i like the sound of that molecule simulator
15:16 < epitron> you ever play with molecule simulators, kanzure?
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15:23 < kanzure> epitron: have you looked at nanoengineer yet
15:23 < epitron> nope!
15:23 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/cgit/nanoengineer
15:24 < kanzure> http://nanoengineer-1.com/content/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=40&Itemid=50
15:24 < epitron> mmm.. cgit
15:25 < epitron> oh man, these nanomachines are trippy
15:26 < epitron> reality is all jiggly :)
15:26 < epitron> so i take it you have played with this thing?
15:26 < kanzure> yes
15:26 < kanzure> and i'm now hosting the git repo
15:26 < epitron> did you make any neat jiggly things?
15:26 < kanzure> you can join the new mailing list http://groups.google.com/group/nanoengineer-dev
15:27 < kanzure> no i've been doing more high-level maintenance stuff
15:27 < kanzure> like svn->git conversion
15:27 < epitron> you must have a minute or two to play though :D
15:27 < epitron> it's jiggly things!
15:28 < kanzure> i'm too busy to jiggle.. i'm acting like i'm working on gitduino.com
15:28 < epitron> and what's that to further?
15:29 < kanzure> github+thingiverse open source hardware hosting hotness
15:29 < epitron> EXTREEEEEEEME
15:30 < flamoto> http://arbornet.org/~flamoot/telepathic-critterdrug.html updated
15:30 < kanzure> go away
15:30 < epitron> who, flamoto?
15:30 < epitron> FLAMOTO
15:30 < epitron> that's fun to imagine saying
15:30 < flamoto> leave me alone
15:30 < flamoto> rude as heck
15:30 < flamoto> yeah
15:30 < flamoto> flamoto is a good permutation of my real name
15:31 < flamoto> "flamoot"
15:31 < flamoto> i put blood sprays in my a life evolver
15:31 < epitron> FLAMOOT
15:31 < epitron> that's awasome too
15:31 < flamoto> i wired a synthetic brain with and gates yesterday
15:31 < epitron> you should rotate between them
15:31 < kanzure> epitron: see pm
15:31 < flamoto> i'm going to try to make a robot controller to seed this thing with
15:31 < flamoto> :3
15:31 < flamoto> brb >>
15:32 < epitron> so kanzure...
15:32 < kanzure> sup
15:33 < epitron> this Masakazu Aono guy's experimental discoveries
15:33 < epitron> can they run on nanoengineer?
15:33 < kanzure> o
15:34 < kanzure> i'm not familiar with his work
15:34 < kanzure> nanoengineer primarily does atomically-precise mechanical modeling, and then offloads these models to various simulators like GROMACS
15:34 < kanzure> it's not uncommon for researchers making up theoretical frameworks to just write their own simulators all the time
15:35 < epitron> interesting
15:35 < kanzure> i should add that ne-1 doesn't just use gromacs of course
15:35 < epitron> i bet that kind of thing would be easier with a good language workbench
15:35 < kanzure> there's a few other packages that i'm forgetting the names of
15:35 < epitron> can you play with these models in real-time?
15:35 < epitron> like.. interactively?
15:35 < kanzure> nanoengineer-1 was designed based on solidworks
15:35 < kanzure> so yes
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15:35 < kanzure> there's also tutorials up on youtube
15:36 < kanzure> hi Tyrant91101 we're talking about http://nanoengineer-1.com/content/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=40&Itemid=50
15:36 < epitron> ohh, i think i get why you need the models... 
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15:36 < epitron> in that motor, for example..
15:36 < epitron> you have some complex relationships going on
15:36 < kanzure> well also because these guys are hoping for molecular nanotechnology and molecular machines
15:36 < epitron> a basic atom force model might not be able to handle that, right?
15:37 < kanzure> so once http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/freitas_process.txt works, what do you build? :)
15:37 < Tyrant91101> kanzure, are those nanotech machines that have been made?
15:37 < Tyrant91101> or just simulated for now?
15:37 < kanzure> Tyrant91101: just simulated
15:37 < Tyrant91101> shame :(
15:37 < kanzure> in the past few months i've been bringing the simulator/CAD environment into the public
15:37 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/cgit/nanoengineer
15:37 < Tyrant91101> nice
15:37 < kanzure> it was open source, but not in the traditional sense (i.e. just the last release was publicly available and open source)
15:37 < kanzure> but now all of the development history is available as well
15:37 < Tyrant91101> now if only there was a good open source CAD and CAM package
15:38 < kanzure> one of the first things we did (well, fitzsim- he's sometimes in here) is get rid of the damn advertisement splash logo screen on bootup
15:38 < kanzure> Tyrant91101: http://heekscad.org/ is a start
15:38 < kanzure> i have a tiny python-based CAD kernel called lolcad http://diyhpl.us/cgit/lolcad
15:38 < epitron> lolcad!
15:38 < kanzure> lolcad is sort of like an all-in-one kernel that hopefully will be easier than openscad to use
15:39 < kanzure> also it's written in python so you get interactive interpreter goodness
15:39 < kanzure> ... once i get it more functional
15:39 < Tyrant91101> heh i dont think cad is anywhere near as developed as commercial packages
15:39 < epitron> wow, commenty
15:39 < kanzure> heekscad is much further along ;)
15:39 < Tyrant91101> unfortuantely i have to stick to the caltech pro/e and mechanica licenses
15:39 < Tyrant91101> :9
15:39 < Tyrant91101> :(
15:39 < epitron> do those comments generate code?
15:39 < kanzure> epitron: in lolcad?
15:39 < epitron> they look pretty structured
15:39 < epitron> yeah
15:39 < kanzure> well.
15:39 < kanzure> yes and no
15:40 < epitron> this looks like a much more ordered version of that old thing you were working on
15:40 < kanzure> basically STEP is an ISO definition in a language called EXPRESS which is also an ISO definition
15:40 < epitron> the apt-get for stuff
15:40 < kanzure> the right way to do this would be to write an EXPRESS parser in python
15:40 < kanzure> but i really didn't want to or know how at the time, so i decided to just write it the way you see it
15:40 < epitron> you should make those comments docstrings then
15:40 < kanzure> the next steps for lolcad are cleaning it up a little bit, a simplified geometry API on top of all that bullshit,
15:40 < epitron> then python could read them off the classes and compile them
15:41 < kanzure> and getting NURBS mapping to the geometric entities-- right now there's some NURBS rendering going on but it's limited to basic objects, and it's not even in the same file
15:41 < Tyrant91101> ugh i have to figure out how to do FEM and dump it on to amazon ec2
15:41 < Tyrant91101> fun week
15:41 < kanzure> openfoam?
15:41 < kanzure> i'm sure you can pay $$$ to cosmosworks if you want something proprietary
15:41 < kanzure> there's also freefem++
15:42 < kanzure> i really like the freefem++ syntax, but it might be a little limited in terms of capabilities
15:42 < Tyrant91101> yeah im going to have to decide sometime this week
15:42 < epitron> solidworks 2010 is 10 gigs?
15:42 < kanzure> salome-platform.org is built by the same guys as opencascade (the library behind heekscad.org) so the quality is a little questionable
15:42 < kanzure> epitron: my copy is only 4ish
15:42 < epitron> man, kanzure is like a predictive search engine
15:42 < epitron> he gives you links before you ask
15:43 < epitron> do you mind if i patent you?
15:43 < Tyrant91101> i think he would mind lmao
15:43 < epitron> it's okay, i won't license him
15:43 < epitron> i'll just license copies of him
15:43 < epitron> i'm just patenting the idea of the process of him
15:45 < kanzure> epitron: back to the nanotech stuff.. you should look at http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/freitas_process.txt
15:45 < Tyrant91101> i wish you could patent the idea of patenting
15:45 < Tyrant91101> id be rich
15:46 < epitron> some guy patented the idea of making a machine that can make patents
15:46 < epitron> and apparently he made that machine
15:46 < epitron> and it generated his next two patents
15:46 < epitron> (seriously)
15:47 < epitron> kanzure: i'm not familiar with these techniques you've got in this doc
15:47 < epitron> is there some nanotech textbook i can read?
15:47 < kanzure> epitron: freitas is in the process of writing another one
15:47 < epitron> i should probably get a good foundation
15:47 < kanzure> this is a good presentation: http://www.molecularassembler.com/Papers/PathDiamMolMfg.htm
15:48 < kanzure> a good foundation is the book 'Nanosystems' by drexler, but it's a little dated
15:48 < epitron> who's freitas?
15:48 < kanzure> it goes over all of the fundamental concepts, but some of them just stop abruptly, which are the ones that happened to have the most progress on
15:48 < kanzure> freitas is the guy who wrote the 1980s NASA report on a self-replicating moon base
15:48 < kanzure> http://www.islandone.org/MMSG/aasm/
15:48 < epitron> hahaha
15:48 < kanzure> and then the book on kinematic self-replicating machines 
15:48 < kanzure> http://www.molecularassembler.com/KSRM.htm
15:49 < epitron> that looks fun
15:49 < kanzure> his site is here: http://rfreitas.com/
15:49 < kanzure> yeah KSRM is a big deal in the reprap community
15:49 < kanzure> (and to me)
15:50 < Tyrant91101> epitron, yeah its a massive brute force thingy
15:50 < Tyrant91101> you stick a problem in and it brute forces a mechanical solution
15:51 < kanzure> Tyrant91101: i was working at "automated design lab" for a while
15:51 < epitron> kanzure: i meant the aasm...
15:51 < kanzure> we were using graph theory for automated design based on rules for what can plug into whatever
15:51 < epitron> i remember that we talked about the KSRM a long time ago though!
15:51 < epitron> you wanted to fill every cubic centimeter of the universe with self replicating garbage
15:51 < kanzure> garbage huh
15:51 < epitron> YEAH
15:51 < epitron> PUNK
15:51 < epitron> i kid i kid
15:52 < QuantumG> McDonalds or Starbucks?
15:52 < Tyrant91101> the latter
15:52 < Tyrant91101> definitely
15:52 < Tyrant91101> better to be a hipster barrista
15:52 < epitron> self-replicating coffee cups?
15:52 < QuantumG> Starbucks is certainly self-replicating.
15:52 < epitron> idneed
15:52 < epitron> man, whenever i talk to kanzure, my browser ends up full of tabs
15:52 < QuantumG> and their coffee tastes like grey goo
15:52 < epitron> i just cleaned it too
15:53 < epitron> lol @ grey goo joke
15:54 < Tyrant91101> tbh starbucks coffee reminds me of soylent green
15:54 < Tyrant91101> i duno why
15:54 < kanzure> epitron: yeah i have the same problem with tabs
15:54 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/shots/2008-06-16.png
15:54 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/shots/2008-06-07_polymerase.png
15:54 < epitron> HAHAHA
15:55 < kanzure> oh.. actual tabs:
15:55 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/shots/2008-03-29-30.png
15:55 < epitron> what is that huge blue thing?
15:55 < epitron> (cyan)
15:55 < epitron> if that was my hard drive, it would be music
15:55 < kanzure> nature.com
15:55 < epitron> you have a copy of nature on your hard drive?
15:56 < kanzure> one of my hard drives..
15:56 < epitron> what year does it date back to?
15:56 < kanzure> 18xx
15:56 < epitron> have you read any of it?
15:56 < kanzure> lots of it
15:56 < kanzure> i even wrote my own weird.. "pdfs instead of television".. thing
15:56 < kanzure> for back when i had >3 monitors
15:57 < epitron> a software thing?
15:57 < kanzure> yes
15:57 < kanzure> well i figured instead of tv i could "watch" science
15:57 < kanzure> and then pause it when the article/paper looks especially interesting
15:57 < epitron> so you'd plop down in front of your computer with some spaghetti and it would display things to you?
15:57 < kanzure> pretty much
15:57 < epitron> that's awesome
15:58 < epitron> my friend did that with the linux kernel once
15:58 < kanzure> honestly i thought you'd be more into 2008-03-29-30.png
15:58 < epitron> he made it his 2nd screen
15:58 < epitron> it would just play it all day while he was working
15:58 < epitron> he learned a lot :)
15:58 < epitron> you showed me a screenshot like that a long time ago
15:58 < epitron> i used to have screenshots like that a long time ago
15:59 < epitron> too many tabs is a curse for me!
15:59 < QuantumG> get tab candy
15:59 < epitron> is it less flaky now?
16:00 < epitron> i tried it a few betas ago
16:00 < QuantumG> only problem I have with it: if my browser dies I have to restore the groups manually (the tabs restore fine)
16:00 < QuantumG> that might be fixed by now though
16:01 < epitron> kanzure: https://chris.ill-logic.com/mrserver/screenshots/opera-and-mp3elfTNG.png
16:02 < epitron> that's Aug 2002, according to the file
16:02 < epitron> oo... pretty windows theme: https://chris.ill-logic.com/mrserver/screenshots/outlook2003.png
16:04 < epitron> QuantumG: haha...
16:04 < epitron> that's a pretty brutal bug for a beta to have
16:07 < kanzure> epin8r?
16:09 < epitron> ICEMAN, scoreotaph, epitaph5, epiphone, epijeeneeus, pietron, Copy_of_epitron, epitronical, epitaph3, aching_rash, epimyass, CrazyDazed, taph[epi], epigenetic, epagoge, snoreotaph, epitroon, epitrono, epilogue1, epitine, epidemic, epigram, epitaph4, [n2o], epilogue, mistataph, epi, epitronics, epitron_, epitron_plus, epitronic, epigauge, epiglottis, epitaffy, epithet, noeld, epitoad, epigenesis, epitone, epizoa, epigenetics, epitaph6, epicac, 
16:09 < epitron> epitax, epimule, epitr0n, ^_^, epijean, epitron_pro, epiweb, file_id_diz, epitaph2, epitronium, epitato, epitaph, epitron2000, capntaph, werdguest608, epoutine, epitaph7, epinat0r, changs_hair, DrEpi, epitron, epikeeneeus, epinoodle, epitrain, epipen, DrAwesome, orotaph, epimaas, Lt_E_P_Taph, epiling, epitro1, epigawge, epitronn, zorotaph
16:09 < augur> epitron: eugh
16:09 < augur> what is with that theme
16:09 < augur> its horrible
16:09 < epitron> it was 2002 man
16:09 < kanzure> epitaph?
16:09 < augur> looks like 1992
16:09 < kanzure> oh.
16:09 < epitron> yessum!
16:09 < kanzure> you dumped a list
16:10 < kanzure> ^_^ can't count
16:10 -!- epitron is now known as Lt_E_P_Taph
16:10 < Lt_E_P_Taph> CARRY ON HERE SEARGENTS
16:11 < kanzure> old screenshot https://chris.ill-logic.com/mrserver/screenshots/coolfont.png
16:11 < kanzure> you've been at this for a while
16:12 < Lt_E_P_Taph> yeah man
16:12 < Lt_E_P_Taph> i started using computers when i was 7
16:12 < Lt_E_P_Taph> when the user interface was ROM BASIC
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16:38 < augur> Lt_E_P_Taph: how old are you?
16:39 < kanzure> you probably shouldn't watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdU05-Ewdl4
16:41 < kanzure> there were a few odd years where i was makign dbz amv videos back before youtube existed that i don't tell anyone about
16:41 < kanzure> *making
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16:46 < Lt_E_P_Taph> augur: 31
16:46 < kanzure> holy crap you're an oldie
16:47 < Lt_E_P_Taph> what it is, daddy-o
16:47 < kanzure> you could be my dad
16:52 < kanzure> Lt_E_P_Taph: http://bit.ly/diybionews
16:52 < kanzure> those links should last you at least a few minutes, right?
16:52 < augur> Lt_E_P_Taph: so you're not that old then
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16:55 < Lt_E_P_Taph> not really, no :)
17:09 < Lt_E_P_Taph> If you are in a shipwreck and all the boats are gone, a piano top ... that comes along makes a fortuitous life preserver. But this is not to say that the best way to design a life preserver is in the form of a piano top. I think that we are clinging to a great many piano tops in accepting yesterday's fortuitous contrivings.
17:09 < Lt_E_P_Taph> -- Buckminster Fuller
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17:18 < kanzure> ftp> dir
17:18 < kanzure> 200 PORT command successful
17:18 < kanzure> 425 Could not open data connection to port 3017: Connection timed out
17:18 < kanzure> ftp> 
17:18 < kanzure> durr
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18:03 < JayDugger> minor clipboard malfunction?
18:04 < kanzure> embarrassing
18:06 < JayDugger> If nothing worse happens today, good. Minor, discreet, and past.
18:06 < JayDugger> Good night, everyone.
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18:46 < kanzure> http://www.sens.org/files/pdf/WILT.pdf
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19:51 < kanzure> if you have webgl enabled: http://bodybrowser.googlelabs.com/index.html
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20:31 < kanzure> not that it's new.. http://brainblogger.com/2010/12/18/a-brain-made-of-memristors/
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20:56 < mheld> anybody do any research on sensory induction?
20:58 < mheld> like, inducing sensory input via magnets
20:58 < mheld> or electrical impulses
20:58 < superkuh> A little. Did you have a question?
20:59 < superkuh> And it's not precise to say "magnets". It's always electromagnets.
20:59 < mheld> I was just looking for some reading material
20:59 < mheld>  /pointers
20:59 < superkuh> When you are depolarizing nerves with a magnetic field it is the rate of change in the field that matters; not flux. Okay.
20:59 < mheld> ah
20:59 < superkuh> http://www.superkuh.com/users/superkuh/Library/001-rTMS/
21:00 < superkuh> You might start in; http://www.superkuh.com/users/superkuh/Library/001-rTMS/005-Books/
21:00 < mheld> gracias
21:03 < mheld> I'd love to build some sort of IO cap that could induce some sort of shared state between a community of people
21:04 < superkuh> So you write fantasy books?
21:04 < mheld> ha
21:04 < mheld> no
21:05 < mheld> I'm a computer scientist who happens to have seen one too many sci-fi movies
21:05 < superkuh> rTMS will never be that. The precision is not great and deep stimulation is hard if not infeasible.
21:05 < mheld> of course not
21:05 < mheld> but it's a lot less invasive than surgery for some research
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21:18 < kanzure> i should read more into russell's papers/talks sometime
21:18 < kanzure> http://www.russellhanson.com/
21:19  * kanzure is looking at http://www.russellhanson.com/web/capump-2004-04-28.pdf
21:19 < kanzure> "Dynamical properties of the calcium pump of sarcoplasmic reticulum: a normal mode analysis"
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21:26 < kanzure> lol russell http://www.metal-archives.com/band.php?id=7212
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22:29 < Tyrant91101> kanzure, you there?
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--- Log closed Mon Dec 20 00:00:07 2010