--- Log opened Sun Apr 29 00:00:08 2012
--- Day changed Sun Apr 29 2012
00:00 < jrayhawk> http://jeffareid.net/misc/aplfns.jpg i dunno, it's pretty hard to beat this
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00:00 < kanzure> clearly i should do all of my web apps in APL
00:00 < kanzure> http://aplwiki.com/MildServer
00:01 < jrayhawk> ahaha awesome
00:01 < kanzure> example: http://aplwiki.com/MildServer/Samples/Index
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00:11 < kanzure> good night
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06:05 < kanzure> beep boop
06:11 < ENKI-][> robby the robot for president
06:14 < kanzure> works for me
06:19 < kanzure> fenn: this is what github uses for wikis https://github.com/github/gollum
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06:47 < kanzure> https://github.com/upverter/schematic-file-converter seems to support kicad, geda, eagle, eagle xml
07:03 < JayDugger> Good morning, everyone,
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08:53 < nmz787> hola
08:54 < kanzure> nmz787: yo
08:54 < nmz787> kanzure: chandni had an interview with isec partners friday
08:54 < nmz787> in sf
08:56 < kanzure> cool. how'd it go?
08:56 < nmz787> she said she got ~%80 of the questions right
09:00 < kanzure> nmz787: i've been doing some spring cleaning.. i moved some git repos over to github
09:00 < kanzure> http://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer wrote a readme
09:00 < kanzure> https://github.com/kanzure/netmorph turned this into a git repository.. http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/netmorph/ for more info
09:04 < nmz787> cool, any news from fenn? I haven't gone through the logs for the past week or so
09:04 < nmz787> i know he had been doing some 3D design
09:05 < kanzure> http://fennetic.net/irc/xy_table_unfinished.png
09:05 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/cgit/laser_etcher
09:07 < audy> I used to have a robby the robot
09:08 < audy> oh never mind that was robie
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09:28 < kanzure> screw the pastebins..
09:28 < kanzure> On Sun, Apr 29, 2012 at 11:08 AM, Randal Koene <randal.a.koene@gmail.com> wrote:
09:28 < kanzure> > I'm happy to see the code go somewhere, hence the GPL.
09:28 < kanzure> >
09:28 < kanzure> > There may be a few bugs, though we got rid of the ones that were relevant to
09:28 < kanzure> > generating realistic neurons of specific types in a plausible way.
09:28 < kanzure> > The bigger issue is that there is a whole list of features that I was
09:28 < kanzure> > working on when the project stopped and that I was never able to get back
09:28 < kanzure> > to, so a few things are only partly implemented, and some not at all.
09:28 < kanzure> >
09:28 < kanzure> > One of the most important is the ability to use the code to generate
09:28 < kanzure> > simulated histological slices. That means, to create a known network and
09:28 < kanzure> > then turn that into thin slices just as would come out of an ATLUM or
09:28 < kanzure> > similar procedure.
09:28 < kanzure> > The point of doing so is this: When using an ATLUM we wonder just what sort
09:28 < kanzure> > of noise/errors/etc are really problematic to recovering the structure and
09:28 < kanzure> > which are not. But with a real brain you never start with a known network,
09:28 < kanzure> > so how do you know if the reconstruction succeeded?
09:28 < kanzure> > With a simulated set of slices for a known network you can test all sorts of
09:28 < kanzure> > noise and error conditions.
09:28 < kanzure> simulated histology slides sound neat/useful
09:33 < kanzure> added it to https://github.com/kanzure/netmorph/issues/1
09:33 < nmz787> kanzure: so just in case, keep your eye open to 3 or 4 bedroom apartments/lofts/industrial space with a kitchen
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09:57 < kanzure> hrmm
09:57 < kanzure> http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/apr/29/singularity-university-technology-future-thinkers
09:58 < kanzure> oh brother "Jim Gianopulos, the chairman of Fox Filmed Entertainment, went on a Singularity University course, and has since become evangelical about it"
09:58 < kanzure> haha
09:58 < JayDugger> Gee...
09:58 < JayDugger> Well, perhaps we'll get some decent movies out of it.
09:59 < JayDugger> Who will get cast in the various roles?
09:59 < JayDugger> Ewan MacGregor as Ralph Merkle?
09:59 < kanzure> ray kurzweil will play ray kurzweil
10:00 < nmz787> hah hah
10:00 < JayDugger> Justin Timberlake as Robert Freitas?
10:00 < nmz787> fox is in on SU now
10:00 < nmz787> its gonna get a TV spot like American Idol.... American Entrepreneur
10:00 < JayDugger> I dunno, Kurzweil seems pretty dead pan on video.
10:00 < JayDugger> Ben Stein maybe? That gets the irony bonus.
10:00 < kanzure> this is all awful
10:01 < kanzure> let's see what they actually fund through SU
10:01 < JayDugger> Yeah. I'll eat hot coals in hell for this part of the chat.
10:01 < JayDugger> Since God will be pulling the wings off an angel for each time I started Bit Torrent, I suppose I am no worse off than before.
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10:02 < kanzure> wtf thomas edison gave himself and his assistants "idea quotas"
10:02 < JayDugger> Sir Ian MacKellen will play Ted Nelson, or Doug Engelbart...
10:03 < JayDugger> or Frederick Taylor in the time travel movie.
10:03 < nmz787> lol
10:03 < nmz787> more ideas!
10:04 < kanzure> nmz787: it was a limiting quota
10:04 < JayDugger> nah...it's just a fun parody. If you want a better treatment, go read Niven & Pournelle: Inferno, and the recent sequel, whose title escapes me.
10:05 < nmz787> kanzure: hmm, don't want the ideas to be too watered down?
10:05 < JayDugger> I should remember it better, given that Oppenheimer is in the same part of hell as the suicide bombers.
10:06 < kanzure> nmz787: dunno
10:06 < JayDugger> It blurs together with Zebrowski's short story about aliens who can't tell Carl Sagan from Moe howard.
10:07 < JayDugger> But regardless, it was a fun read, and the parody made it better.
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10:07 < JayDugger> Good night, everyone. I need some sleep.
10:14 < JayDugger> George Clooney for Bram Cohen.
10:19 < strangewarp> We must get Jonah Hill to play Eliezer Yudkowsky.
10:19 < strangewarp> MAKE IT SO
10:21 < strangewarp> Also, Christopher Walken is the obvious actor to play Kurzweil
10:25 < roksprok> https://p.twimg.com/AeuClYxCMAIxMdV.jpg:large
10:25 < roksprok> ^^^ibm job posting from 1959
10:25 < roksprok> strikingly similar to biotech job postings today
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10:26 < roksprok> ie...required degree, they wanted someone to 'write differential equations'
10:26 < roksprok> just as you see now with companies asking for a masters degree to do random lab tests
10:28 < roksprok> gives me hope that synthetic biology/diybio/etc will perfuse through society
10:29 < AdrianG> 1960 lol
10:29 < AdrianG> roksprok: as long as biotech equipment prices keep dropping
10:30 < AdrianG> and thats far from certain
10:30 < AdrianG> also, computer viruses arent that scary.
10:30 < AdrianG> now imagine script-kiddies with ebola or something
10:30 < roksprok> well if you told those guys that sometime in the future everyeone would have several computers, they'd be asking 'what would they use them for?'
10:31 < roksprok> because mice and gui's and os's didn't exist
10:31 < AdrianG> how do you mitigate script-kiddies with ebolas
10:31 < roksprok> have other script-kiddies with ebola vaccines?
10:31 < AdrianG> its far easier to write potent infectious agents, than to understand immunology and how to cure/vaccinate/prevent it
10:32 < roksprok> i disagree, its the same problem
10:32 < AdrianG> it is the same problem, but the problem is asymmetricall
10:32 < roksprok> one organism's infectious agent is another organism's immune system
10:33 < roksprok> ok actually that sounded dumb
10:33 < roksprok> i take that back
10:33 < roksprok> that was dumb my bad
10:33 < roksprok> but ebola exists...as do other awful things
10:33 < AdrianG> how do you protect against quickly mutating viruses
10:33 < AdrianG> like common cold/flu
10:33 < roksprok> we do that....right now
10:33 < AdrianG> yes, a seasonal vaccine
10:33 < roksprok> have an immune system? antivirals?
10:34 < AdrianG> script-kiddies wont be seasonal.
10:34 < AdrianG> antivirals dont work for it.
10:34 < roksprok> a hypothetical future where script-kiddies write viruses is a hypothetical future where we have synthetic immune systems
10:34 < AdrianG> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biosafety_level#Biosafety_level.C2.A04
10:35 < AdrianG> luckily script-kiddies will kill themselves before anyone else
10:35 < AdrianG> roksprok: vaccine are much more difficult to write because you have to take into account side-effects, etc
10:35 < AdrianG> with destructive agents you dont have to worry about such optimizations.
10:36 < kanzure> hi roksprok
10:37 < kanzure> AdrianG: yes it's true that awful things exist and it's also true that you are not currently immune to those awful things
10:37 < roksprok> hi kanzure....do you happen to know the guys from backyard brains?
10:37 < kanzure> yes
10:37 < kanzure> AdrianG: you are not invincible.. yet
10:38 < AdrianG> kanzure: if diybio really takes off, it'll be worse than nuclear proliferation
10:38 < kanzure> biology has taken off for the past 4 billion years
10:38 < kanzure> you're late to the party
10:38 < AdrianG> we've evolved along with everything else in 4 billion years.
10:38 < kanzure> btw there are ways to prevent contact with viruses
10:39 < kanzure> air gaps, filtration, immune response, vaccines, etc.
10:39 < kanzure> obv. the second two aren't "preventing contact" but you get the idea
10:40 < AdrianG> some can infect via skin contact
10:40 < kanzure> yep.. i suggest not putting your skin in contact with pathogens
10:40 < AdrianG> you really think synthetic viruses are nothing different to deal with vs viruses we've been living with for a few billion years?
10:40 < kanzure> i think everyone should judge on their own how much exposure they are willing to have
10:41 < kanzure> some people prefer to wear masks everywhere they go- look at people in shenzhen or beijing
10:41 < AdrianG> its a grey-goo scenario.
10:41 < kanzure> no it's not
10:42 < kanzure> AdrianG: there are many diseases that you can contract even /now/
10:42 < AdrianG> virus is a self-replication nanotech. only nanotech that's actually working.
10:43 < kanzure> grey goo is when the earth is transformed into goo
10:43 < kanzure> every atom repurposed
10:43 < kanzure> viruses aren't going to do that. bacteria isn't going to do that either.
10:43 < AdrianG> i dont think thats going to matter if you are dead
10:44 < AdrianG> it's an ecophage, but its ecology is multicellular organisms.
10:44 < kanzure> are you saying you're too lazy to take precautions in your life?
10:44 < kanzure> i don't understand- surely you have your vaccinations, and surely you don't breath exhaust from your car?
10:45 < AdrianG> producing weaponized pathogens is expensive now.
10:45 < AdrianG> you really think anthrax is about as bad as breathing in exhaust fumes?
10:45 < kanzure> it doesn't matter if a human makes the pathogen or not
10:46 < kanzure> you still have to protect yourself in *either* case
10:46 < AdrianG> ofc its does matter
10:46 < kanzure> nope. not at all.
10:47 < kanzure> do you think you should let that pathogen have contact with you b/c it's human-made or something?
10:48 < AdrianG> what?
10:49 < kanzure> nature can make awful viruses that will kill you- and so can humans- it doesn't really matter who makes it, you still should protect yourself
10:50 < AdrianG> nature does not synthesize viruses de novo.
10:50 < AdrianG> they evolve. along with every other organism present on earth.
10:50 < kanzure> i guess one of your self-preservation strategies might be "discourging people from learning about diybiology because someone might do a bad thing", but that's not a reasonable strategy because it doesn't make "evil doers" disappear from the picture
10:51 < kanzure> (because that would be like saying "if i close my eyes hard enough, or regulate hard enough, the structure of this problem (that i can get sick) will go away")
10:51 < kanzure> *enough
10:51 < kanzure> ok, so you're saying there's some level of technology that can be incorporated into a synthetic virus, that current viruses don't have
10:51 < kanzure> that's probably true, but it's not grey goo, and you still shouldn't have contact with it
10:53 < AdrianG> yes, everyone will wear positive-pressure suits 24/7.
10:53 < kanzure> i doubt it- i think it would be more like space habitats
10:54 < ENKI-][> space habs are closed systems. one evildoer kills the whole hab, and maybe other habs don't hear about it before it spreads
10:54 < kanzure> ENKI-][: ok sure, you still need to detect what went wrong in a habitat
10:54 < ENKI-][> thinking of a situation like stross's Glasshouse
10:54 < kanzure> ENKI-][: however, i think the most important thing is the log of environmental contact
10:54 < kanzure> or syncs i mean. whatever.
10:55 < kanzure> obviously those can be faked so there would be some network of trust, blah blah blah
10:55 < kanzure> *web of trust
10:55 < kanzure> anyway, people inside different environments (like their homes) don't need to wear suits... they can be naked for all i care
10:55 < ENKI-][> that's a problem with any system involving multiple actors and rewards. there's a benefit to parasitism that is nonzero at best.
10:56 < kanzure> i also don't think it's necessary to wear pressure suits going outside on earth right now- it seems 100% hospitable to human life at the moment :)
10:56 < ENKI-][> well, parasitism and social engineering
10:56 < AdrianG> well, once diybio level 4 labs are available to everyone
10:56 < AdrianG> it might be the time to start wearing one
10:57 < kanzure> but i can imagine scenarios where the earth's atmosphere becomes unbreathable- like in nuclear winter contexts, or the atmosphere is poisoned, or there is a horrible airborne plague that i can't filter out
10:57 < AdrianG> all we'll need will be one unabomber
10:57 < kanzure> AdrianG: yeah again, it's a personal decision that you have to make for yourself
10:57 < kanzure> most people don't think about it because, so far we have never had to do that
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10:57 < kanzure> but every time we step onto the ocean floor we're in a suit- people don't question *that*
10:57 < AdrianG> we had plagues.
10:57 < AdrianG> in fact, nobody's even immune to smallpox.
10:58 < kanzure> yeah, right now we're horribly susceptible to plagues
10:58 < kanzure> are you a hypochondriac?
10:58 < AdrianG> no, why?
10:58 < kanzure> *shrug* just wondering
10:58 < AdrianG> i think its just a very plausible possibility
10:58 < AdrianG> think about ti.
10:59 < kanzure> yeah i've already agreed with you.. but your original idea was "STOP DIYBIO" which isn't a good solution
10:59 < AdrianG> you can be damn sure diybio is going to be controlled
10:59 < AdrianG> nah, i ddint say that
10:59 < kanzure> my idea is "HERE ARE SOME TOOLS THAT WILL SAVE YOUR LIFE"
10:59 < AdrianG> u cant stop it
10:59 < kanzure> you just said it though
10:59 < kanzure> "is going to be controlled"
10:59 < kanzure> i think you're being inconsistent
10:59 < AdrianG> sure, meth is controlled
10:59 < AdrianG> has that changed anything
10:59 < kanzure> no it isn't
10:59 < kanzure> tons of meth labs are unregulated
11:00 < AdrianG> is methamphetamine a controlled substance: y/n
11:00 < kanzure> "controlled substance" refers to a legal concept, not actual control of the situation
11:00 < AdrianG> how else are they going to be controlled
11:00 < AdrianG> defacto, without supporting laws?
11:00 < kanzure> meth labs *aren't*.. that's why there's so many of them
11:01 < AdrianG> we'll probably have a similar situation with diybio
11:01 < kanzure> iirc i saw a number once saying at least 10,000 meth labs in texas
11:01 < kanzure> AdrianG: i don't think supporting additional regulation of diybio would help people in the long run
11:02 < AdrianG> i dont think so either
11:02 < AdrianG> but it'll happen, i am sure.
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11:02 < kanzure> none of the diybio experts agree either
11:02 < AdrianG> or do you think everyone will be ok with everyone having a bit of smallpox at home?
11:02 < kanzure> nobody is suggesting that you keep smallpox at home
11:02 < AdrianG> im just saying
11:02 < AdrianG> u just have to scare some soccer moms, and done
11:02 < kanzure> done what ?
11:03 < AdrianG> diybio outlawed/restricted/etc
11:03 < kanzure> those are all just penalties
11:03 < AdrianG> in most countries, you cant even own handguns easily
11:03 < kanzure> you can make one, and not tell anyone about it
11:03 < AdrianG> and u think diybio tech will be legal?
11:03 < kanzure> soccer moms are not diybio experts
11:03 < kanzure> you shouldn't listen to them
11:04 < AdrianG> but they vote
11:04 < AdrianG> or maybe scare seniors
11:04 < AdrianG> whoever votes.
11:04 < kanzure> whether or not your scare tactics work, that doesn't change anything that i've said
11:04 < AdrianG> http://www.crscientific.com/texas-glassware.html
11:04 < kanzure> for instance, natural plagues can't be "regulated against" by soccer moms
11:04 < kanzure> in the end, the soccer moms will need to take medication too
11:04 < kanzure> it's just how our biology works
11:05 < AdrianG> texas has already permits for glassware lol
11:05 < kanzure> yes i'm aware.
11:05 < AdrianG> hilarious
11:06 < nmz787> kanzure: i wonder how that glassware law would apply/not to microfluidics?
11:06 < AdrianG> it wouldnt
11:07 < AdrianG> those are mainly diagnostic devices, at least currently?
11:07 < AdrianG> FDA will restrict those for you, dont worry.
11:08 < kanzure> nmz787: haven't checked
11:09 < AdrianG> microfuidics are not glassware.
11:09 < ThomasEgi> you guys arent seriously trying to comply with regulations?
11:10 < kanzure> ThomasEgi: i don't see it as important yet- we're in such an early stage that we haven't even ordered parts yet
11:10 < kanzure> nmz787: which, by the way, we need to do..
11:11 < nmz787> right
11:11 < nmz787> ThomasEgi: compliance is always in my mind... i don't want my ass getting locked up or sued to homelessness
11:12 < nmz787> but at the same time, as kanzure mentioned, i don't think we're at any stage where we have to really think much about compliance
11:12 < ThomasEgi> i see.well. from my own experience, trying to comply with regulations will make hit a roadblock and ruin your day. but then. i am not messing with biological stuff, mostly
11:13 < kanzure> right now we are in complete compliance :) since we're not doing anything >_<
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11:13 < ThomasEgi> just my 2 ¢ . and now it is time for an intermission, called pancakes!
11:14 < AdrianG> that texas glasswaer
11:14 < AdrianG> law
11:14 < AdrianG> has anyone been arrested yet under that law
11:14 < nmz787> most likely
11:14 < nmz787>  but its really meant to catch meth cookers, not prospective business startups
11:16 < kanzure> in the past four years of diybio i haven't been informed of any diybio-related arrests really
11:17 < nmz787> ttyl
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11:18 < AdrianG> lawmakers dont care about diybio yet
11:19 < kanzure> sure they do
11:19 < kanzure> look at the report from pcsbi in 2011
11:19 < kanzure> (the president's)
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11:33 < AdrianG> dont care enough to pass laws about it
11:35 < ENKI-][> laws are another thing that don't take into account cheaters
11:35 < ENKI-][> the law only really affects people with a kneejerk submission response to authority, except when there is clear and present enforcement
11:36 < ENKI-][> in other words, outside of a police state, legality only truly matters to the kind of people who don't really need laws to keep them in line (and will follow any suggestion about good/moral behavior)
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14:05 < kanzure> hrmm
14:05 < kanzure> for some reason the response to my README file for nanoengineer has been overwhelmingly positive
14:06 < kanzure> http://www.facebook.com/kanzure/posts/448335391848427
14:06 < kanzure> "Bryan!!!!! YOU HERO" it's a readme :|
14:07 < kanzure> i guess nobody was interested when i posted it last year?
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15:01 < Cat4D> "affect" is a belief system, ENKI-][
15:23 < kanzure> "All segments of the video show portions of a molecular dynamics simulation of a small bearing rotating at 5 GHz."
15:23 < kanzure> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4537373229618869344
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15:39 < kanzure> hrmm there was a nanotech xprize being setup in 2006
15:39 < kanzure> http://web.archive.org/web/20060902073405/http://www.xprizefoundation.com/prizes/nanotechx.asp
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15:48 < kanzure> someone's diy tdcs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ieujpNM-D8
15:48 < kanzure> oh it's ianmathwiz7.. well ok
15:48 < kanzure> all of the "related" videos are really pathetic
15:48 < eudoxia> oh its' that guy
15:49 < eudoxia> oh god tom horn
15:49 < kanzure> "NotForSaleNWO" "ResistNWO".. come on, this is the best we can do? shit
15:49 < kanzure> eudoxia: hm? i don't know who that is
15:49 < eudoxia> the "transhumanism == nwo" guy
15:49 < eudoxia> the guy who thinks the military is creating furries to be snipers or some shit
15:54 < kanzure> eudoxia: are you a good wordsmith?
15:54 < eudoxia> not really
15:55 < eudoxia> why?
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15:55 < yashgaroth> isn't that the plot of tank girl
15:55 < kanzure> eudoxia: i am writing a quick article about http://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer#readme for foresight institute's blog
15:56 < eudoxia> oh yeah the readme you mentioned
15:56 < kanzure> yes well.. still figuring out what to write
15:56 < kanzure> http://piratepad.net/tGR4Aaqh6o
15:57 < kanzure> most of this sounds like a marketing brochure
15:57 < eudoxia> maybe it should
15:57 < kanzure> long/complicated sentences aren't ideal for a blog
15:58 < kanzure> nanoengineer was featured on the http://foresight.org/nanodot blog a few times in the past but it was never actually /explained/
15:58 < eudoxia> does anybody actually read the blog anymore
15:59 < kanzure> probably not
15:59 < eudoxia> yeah
15:59 < kanzure> but christine peterson is right.. it should be announced by foresight institute
16:00 < kanzure> since all the nanotech molecular machine bigwigs are still somewhat associated with foresight institute or institute for molecular manufacturing
16:00 < kanzure> also: i didn't notice beore but tom moore's blog is still going strong since 2007 http://machine-phase.blogspot.com/ he seems to be posting nanoengineer-related simulation results
16:00 < kanzure> oh hm. no he's possibly using blender.
16:01 < eudoxia> he was going strong but has sort of stopped recently
16:01 < eudoxia> except for that adamantane simulation
16:01 < eudoxia> and yeah he wrote his own blender renderer
16:01 < kanzure> lame.
16:02 < eudoxia> I added something to the pad
16:03 < kanzure> what was "crystal clear"
16:03 < eudoxia> wait actually it was called somethin gelse
16:03 < eudoxia> http://goanna.cs.rmit.edu.au/~gl/research/nano/crystal.html
16:03 < eudoxia> the only executable is for the SGI lololollolol
16:05 < kanzure> oh that's neat
16:05 < kanzure> didn't know about that one
16:05 < kanzure> neat ... some pdb files of bearings, blocks and tubes http://goanna.cs.rmit.edu.au/~gl/research/nano/structures/
16:06 < eudoxia> that's pretty useful
16:06 < eudoxia> I always thought the parts library needed more items
16:06 < eudoxia> I was kinda saddened when Freitas said he expected it to grow to "many thousands" in a few years ;_;
16:08 < kanzure> honestly i want to see freitas, merckle and drexler commiting to the git repo- what the heck are they spending all their time on if not simulations?
16:08 < eudoxia> yeah
16:08 < eudoxia> also those two books merkle and freitas have been writing
16:13 < kanzure> "NanoEngineer is the first molecular engineering CAD program." i don't think it particularly matters that it's the first or not
16:13 < eudoxia> originally I intended to say it was the first that combined CAD with molecular design
16:13 < kanzure> "NanoEngineer is the first free, open-source, Linux-compatible Mac-compatible Windows-compatible molecular engineering and structural DNA nanotechnology CAD program"
16:14 < kanzure> i'm not really sure what the news is supposed to be
16:16 < eudoxia> it's kind of late to announce anything
16:16 < eudoxia> unless you're announcing a new version
16:16 < eudoxia> like "the all new NanoEngineer-1, NanoEngineer-2"
16:18 < kanzure> the whole -1 naming thing is really silly
16:18 < eudoxia> i agree
16:19 < kanzure> i am also debating whether or not it should be capitalized with Engineer
16:19 < kanzure> it should be referred to by its versions: nanoengineer v1.0.0 and nanoengineer v1.0.1
16:19 < eudoxia> you mean use 'NanoEngineer' insted of the original 'NanoENGINEER'
16:19 < kanzure> haha
16:19 < kanzure> actually i saw it written as nanoENGINEER (R) somewhere
16:20 < eudoxia> I like the original CamelCase
16:20 < eudoxia> brb food
16:51 < lichen> http://ieet.org/index.php/IEET/more/olson20120426
16:52 < lichen> this article is kind of groan-worthy
16:53 < lichen> "here's a neat advance that lowers the cost of drug synthesis for laboratories... WHICH MEANS ITLL BE USED TO MAKE METH"
16:55 < kanzure> in general, ieet is like that :p
16:55 < lichen> yeah
16:58 < gnusha> nanoengineer.git: 31ab000 ignore automake-generated files
16:58 < jrayhawk> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qNEeqCACwo
17:00 < kanzure> the video's description is fluff
17:00 < kanzure> what is it actually about
17:00 < jrayhawk> jack kruse performs hilarious medical experiments on self and others
17:02 < kanzure> jrayhawk: do you feel like helping to get nanoengineer running again?
17:02 < kanzure> http://www.nanoengineer-1.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Setting_up_an_NE1_Development_Environment_on_Linux
17:02 < eudoxia> does it work with the new python now?
17:03 < kanzure> eudoxia: nope
17:03 < jrayhawk> i have enough trouble keeping my own projects working on unstable languages
17:03 < kanzure> jrayhawk: most of the problems are related to reliably tracking down old versions of packages, or writing scripts that will probably work
17:04 < kanzure> "sudo apt-get install python-numarray=1.5.2-2.2ubuntu1"
17:04 < kanzure> derp .. http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/main/p/python-numarray/python-numarray_1.5.2-4/changelog
17:04 < kanzure> not found
17:05 < jrayhawk> archive.debian.org archive.ubuntu.com
17:05 < kanzure> http://archive.debian.net/en/etch/i386/python-numarray/download
17:06 < kanzure> what's the right way to do this from a single apt-get command? or would i have to tell users to modify their apt sources, add one of these archives, and do -t whatever
17:08 < jrayhawk> With something that screwy, a dedicated userspace run as a chroot is probably the best bet.
17:09 < kanzure> jrayhawk: would that be better than me serving the files publicly in some random folder?
17:10 < jrayhawk> I would make instructions for how to build something approximating the userspace, then distribute the userspace.
17:12 < kanzure> i see. yeah, i think some of this depends on ancient versions of libc.
17:13 < jrayhawk> and, of course, treat that userspace as a temporary measure until you get things working with modern infrastructure
17:14 < kanzure> yes i've always imagined it would be something like "start with some VM image" and "incrementally upgrade once library at a time"
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17:14 < kanzure> libdb4.5_4.5.20-1_i386.deb <-- can't find this
17:16 < jrayhawk> http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aarchive.ubuntu.com+%22libdb4.5%22
17:17 < kanzure> it's a cygwin library? o.o
17:17 < kanzure> http://ie.archive.ubuntu.com/cygwin/release-legacy/db/db4.5/libdb4.5/libdb4.5-4.5.20-1.tar.bz2
17:17 < jrayhawk> It's a c library.
17:17 < jrayhawk> http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/universe/d/db4.5/
17:20 < kanzure> jrayhawk: is running an ancient libc version under chroot a reasonable thing?
17:21 < jrayhawk> Yeah. I've run libc5 on modern kernels, even.
17:21 < kanzure> so what would distributing a chroot environment look like? i've never done that
17:21 < kanzure> i understand distributing a giant vm image, but that's the sucker's way out :)
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17:22 < jrayhawk> tar -Jcf nanoengineer-chroot.tar.xz nanoengineer-chroot/
17:23 < jrayhawk> The chroot itself you can mostly construct with debootstrap or cdebootstrap, presumably.
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17:24 < kanzure> jrayhawk: making a chroot that assumes debian will be nice for those who don't want to run a vm and already use debian
17:24 < kanzure> but then other users will want to get the original version running on their OS
17:24 < kanzure> so then i'll be stuck debugging what other awful versions people have for their separate distributions
17:24 < kanzure> distributing a single vm image would probably be the smarter thing to do?
17:24 < jrayhawk> I don't see what the host distribution has to do with anything?
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17:25 < kanzure> jrayhawk: deboostrap can install debian things on a non-debian system?
17:25 < jrayhawk> No, tar can.
17:26 < jrayhawk> Well, and yes debootstrap can
17:26 < jrayhawk> debootstrap doesn't rely on anything other than libc
17:26 < jrayhawk> but there's no real point; it's not like a distribution from 2007 is going to get security updates
17:28 < kanzure> jrayhawk: alright
17:28 < kanzure> i like the sounds of this
17:28 < kanzure> *sound
17:30 < kanzure> jrayhawk: so i cdeboostrap with a particular mirror/archive from waybackwhen, then chroot into a bash sesson using that as the root, dselect some things, then tar it up into your .tar.xz?
17:31 < jrayhawk> Something like that. Looks like there's unpackaged software to install in that chroot as well, if those directions are any indication.
17:32 < jrayhawk> And you may as well install nanoengineer-1 into that userspace as well.
17:32 < jrayhawk> as well as well as well
17:32 < kanzure> do you mind if i do this on gnusha?
17:32 < jrayhawk> Sounds fine.
17:32 < kanzure> or would it be better to do this on my fairlystable vserver
17:32 < kanzure> ok
17:39 < kanzure> jrayhawk: can you confirm- it looks like i want etch? g++ 4.1.2, qt 4.3.5, python2.5,
17:40 < jrayhawk> I didn't see db4.5 in any debian release, so I'm guessing ubuntu will work out better.
17:40 < kanzure> is the only difference that i should use cdebootstrap with an ubuntu mirror?
17:40 < jrayhawk> Well, you'll want to choose the right suite.
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17:40 < kanzure> eh? it looks like they want ubuntu 7.04
17:41 < jrayhawk> Sounds reasonable.
17:41 < kanzure> heh http://old-releases.ubuntu.com/releases/7.04/ "These images are vulnerable to USN-612-1, a very serious flaw in the cryptographic library used to generate encryption keys. It is essential that you apply all security updates after installation before making any use of your system."
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17:42 < kanzure> hmm i see some ISOs
17:42 < kanzure> god did i really just capitalize the extension? i regretted that immediately
17:43 < jrayhawk> there's probably an ISO standard for capitalizing ISO
17:44 < kanzure> am i just sucking at search? where is the mirror url
17:44 < jrayhawk> archive.ubuntu.org/ubuntu/
17:44 < jrayhawk> err, .com
17:44 < kanzure> i don't see it: http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/
17:46 < jrayhawk> http://old-releases.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ huh
17:46 < jrayhawk> i wonder why those are separate
17:47 < kanzure> do you prefer debootstrap or cdebootstrap?
17:48 < jrayhawk> I find debootstrap is better maintained.
17:49 < jrayhawk> For instance, debootstrap has direct support for feisty.
17:49 < kanzure> huh i can't find a cdeboostrap homepage.. just some mailing list stuff. sooo yeah, deboostrap it is.
17:49 < kanzure> *debootstrap
17:49 < kanzure> *cdebootstrap
17:51 < kanzure> jrayhawk: which package for chroot do you prefer? chrootuid, dchroot, or schroot?
17:52 < jrayhawk> debootstrap takes care of the chroot setup for you
17:52 < jrayhawk> at which point you can use of the chroot in gnu coreutils
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17:58 < kanzure> jrayhawk: E: Cannot install into target '/home/bryan/nanoengineer-chroot' mounted with noexec or nodev
17:58 < kanzure> hrm
17:58 < jrayhawk> oh, fascinating
17:58 < kanzure> do i have to edit /etc/fstab?
17:59 < jrayhawk> I doubt it. It's probably a vserver restriction.
18:01 < kanzure> jrayhawk: ideas?
18:02 < jrayhawk> ah, yeah, it wants to install device nodes. right. I'll get that first step done outside...
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18:08 < kanzure> jrayhawk: export CHROOT=~/nanoengineer-chroot; mkdir -p $CHROOT; sudo debootstrap --arch i386 feisty $CHROOT http://old-releases.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/;
18:08 < kanzure> oh sorry i forgot to report the other part of the original error message;
18:08 < kanzure> mknod: `/root/nanoengineer-chroot/test-dev-null': Operation not permitted
18:08 < kanzure> er, this was before i realized i was using ~ in sudo or something
18:15 < kanzure> jrayhawk: ping?
18:16 < jrayhawk> Okay, sudo chroot /root/nanoengineer-chroot
18:16 < kanzure> jrayhawk: is this with feisty installed already?
18:16 < jrayhawk> Yeah.
18:16 < kanzure> thank you!
18:17 < jrayhawk> Basically the debootstrap command you ran, only outside of the vserver restrictions (and minus the dists/feisty/ part of the URL)
18:18 < kanzure> jrayhawk: erm, now what?
18:18 < kanzure> i guess i install things
18:18 < jrayhawk> Yeah.
18:18 < kanzure> is modern git an okay idea? :|
18:19 < jrayhawk> Eh, you don't really need modern git features
18:19 < kanzure> where should i put things in this chroot? /root?
18:19 < jrayhawk> Wherever you like!
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18:20 < jrayhawk> /usr/src for source and /usr/local for installation is traditional
18:20 < kanzure> root@gnusha:/# adduser nanoengineeruser
18:20 < kanzure> perl: warning: Setting locale failed.
18:20 < kanzure> perl: warning: Please check that your locale settings:
18:20 < kanzure> LANGUAGE = (unset), LC_ALL = (unset), LANG = "en_US.UTF-8"
18:20 < jrayhawk> you may wish to install locales, which are not a base dependency
18:21 < jrayhawk> and/or dpkg-reconfigure locales
18:21 < kanzure> nanoengineer by default uses this /home/user/Nanoengineer thing so i should probably use a user
18:21 < jrayhawk> that's dumb but i suppose this is all dumb
18:22 < kanzure> wait how is this /all/ dumb?
18:22 < kanzure> bit rot is natural
18:23 < jrayhawk> With unstable languages, maybe.
18:26 < nmz787> hi
18:26 < kanzure> jrayhawk: locale: Cannot set LC_CTYPE to default locale: No such file or directory
18:27 < kanzure> this is after: sudo apt-get install locales
18:27 < jrayhawk> you may want to dpkg-reconfigure debconf and set it to a saner priority
18:28 < jrayhawk> in ubuntu-land, everyone is assumed to be terrified of configuration dialogues
18:29 < kanzure> what is a saner priority? it is set to "high"
18:30 < kanzure> oh well. medium it is.
18:30 < jrayhawk> I don't remember what priority you get to configure locales at, but low should catch everything
18:30 < jrayhawk> and be educational besides!
18:30 < jrayhawk> anyway, then you can probably dpkg-reconfigure locales to greater effect
18:30 < kanzure> erm.. now what?
18:30 < kanzure> the locales package seems to be installed anyway
18:30 < kanzure> reconfigure locales?
18:31 < jrayhawk> don't argue with me young man!
18:31 < jrayhawk> i swear to god i will turn this chatroom around and go right back home!
18:31 < kanzure> no sir i'll be good i'll stop yelling at the homeless people i promise
18:32 < kanzure> welp, setting "low" didn't help with "dpkg-reconfigure locales"
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18:33 < jrayhawk> whaaat the hell
18:33 < kanzure> holy hell pastie.org is down
18:33 < kanzure> http://pastebin.com/TSfV0iwb
18:33 < kanzure> guh i hate that
18:33 < kanzure> http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=TSfV0iwb
18:34 < kanzure> to be fair.. on my laptop i seem to have $LANGUAGE and $LC_ALL unset too
18:37 < kanzure> jrayhawk: export LANG=C <-- seems to help clean up the issues
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18:47 < nmz787> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morpholino
18:47 < nmz787> kinda cool, sortof
18:48 < jrayhawk> yeah, it appears the debconf interface to locales is simply removed in that release
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18:50 < jrayhawk> you can 'echo en_US.UTF-8 UTF-8 > /etc/locale.gen; locale-gen' if you want to show off your cultural imperialist might
18:50 < kanzure> jrayhawk: it's asking for g++=4.1.2-0ubuntu4 but all i see is g++=4.1.2-1ubuntu1
18:51 < kanzure> erm, rather, i'm asking for
18:51 < kanzure> i suppose this minor version difference shouldn't matter but i'd rather not risk it
18:51 < jrayhawk> That's probably a security update.
18:51 < kanzure> okay.
18:52 < kanzure> hrm.. qt4-dev-tools isn't found
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18:56 < jrayhawk> There exists a qt4-dev-tools in feisty-backports
18:56 < kanzure> alright
18:56 < jrayhawk> oh, no wait, it's just mysteriously referenced there. hmm.
18:57 < kanzure> didn't work anyway :p
18:57 < kanzure> it seems to be referenced by libqt4-dev
18:58 < kanzure> as a recommends
18:59 < kanzure> well my other option is to compile it from the qt sources
18:59 < nmz787> http://www.northstreetlabs.org/laser.html
18:59 < nmz787> via hackaday
18:59 < nmz787> 1.3W 445nm laser video at end
19:00 < nmz787> nothin too crazy
19:00 < kanzure> jrayhawk: http://old-releases.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/universe/q/qt4-x11/ ?
19:00 < kanzure> what is "universe"
19:01 < jrayhawk> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Repositories/Ubuntu
19:01 < kanzure> apt-get update is eating it up
19:01 < kanzure> aha
19:03 < kanzure> hrm.. qt4-dev-tools 4.3.2 is the latest version there
19:08 < kanzure> well that's not fair.. it runs on osx 10.6.8 without trouble
19:16 < kanzure> /dev/mem Operation not permitted
19:16 < kanzure> what operation :(
19:17 < jrayhawk> are you trying to start an x server
19:18 < kanzure> jrayhawk: just installing some qt4 packages
19:18 < jrayhawk> haha what the hell
19:18 < kanzure> it's a CAD program
19:18 < kanzure> anywho aptitude seems to have succeeded
19:19 < kanzure> o.o getting python-numarray=1.5.2-2.2ubuntu1 gets gcc-3.4-base
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19:48 < kanzure> jrayhawk: how can i test this out? will ssh -X work?
19:49 < JayDugger> What do you  test?
19:50 < jrayhawk> You'll have to forward the socket into it; socat can probably do that...
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19:52 < kanzure> jrayhawk: i'm not familiar with that
19:53 < jrayhawk> Yeah, normally you'd want to bindmount /tmp into the chroot or just let it go over localhost, but you're not running it locally, so...
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19:53 < jrayhawk> Give me a second and I can probably work it out.
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19:55 < nmz787> jrayhawk: kanzure: you mean ssh -D?
19:55 < nmz787> SOCKS proxy?
19:56 < kanzure> nmz787: i am compiling nanoengineer on a remote server in a chroot
19:56 < kanzure> instead of downloading the entire chroot i can run it remotely
19:57 < kanzure> then use x11 forwarding over ssh to see what i'm doing
19:59 < jrayhawk> oh, durr, ssh forwards the socket as 127.0.0.1:6010
19:59 < jrayhawk> I was expecting a unix socket.
19:59 < jrayhawk> So, yeah, run it with DISPLAY=:10
20:00 < jrayhawk> oh, i guess you might need to copy your .Xauthority in there if you use -X, which is wise given how many users are on there.
20:01 < jrayhawk> if you use -Y, I'd suggest doing so in a dedicated nested server.
20:02 < JayDugger> Good point.
20:02 < kanzure> damndedy damn damn.. compile error
20:02 < kanzure> HDF5_SimResults.cpp: In member function 'int Nanorex::HDF5_SimResults::readMeasurement(const char*, const int&, const int&, const hid_t&, float&, std::string&)':
20:02 < kanzure> HDF5_SimResults.cpp:2110: error: cannot convert 'const hsize_t*' to 'const hsize_t**' for argument '4' to 'herr_t H5Sselect_elements(hid_t, H5S_seloper_t, size_t, const hsize_t**)'
20:02 < kanzure> hdf5.h wasn't available so i installed libhdf5-serial-dev .. perhaps that was the wrong choice
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20:11 < klafka> so i'm going to build a collaborative filter in julia
20:20 < kanzure> i <3 nanoengineer's default organic molecules
20:20 < kanzure> amphetamine, cafeine, cocaine, morphine
20:20 < kanzure> *caffeine
20:24 < klafka> lol
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20:35 < kanzure> fooey
20:36 < kanzure> it was fitzsim's fault
20:36 < kanzure> in d5eee582705e4f823d8aa1c33d5ccf07f49c2031 he was "fixing" this error
20:36 < klafka> hey kanzure python is pass by reference right?
20:36 < kanzure> it seems to work on my laptop because- i am guessing- a modern hdf5.h
20:37 < kanzure> klafka: yes but if you want to copy things.. from copy import copy, deepcopy
20:37 < klafka> right
20:37 < klafka> i was trying to make this function side effect free and i'mt rying to decide if i should or not
20:50 < klafka> hmm kanzure can you use 'del' for high level memory management?
20:50 < klafka> e.g. you create a large temporary variable foo and then no longer need it can you del foo to free up memory?
20:51 < klafka> in python
21:01 < kanzure> you can use del on your own yes
21:02 < kanzure> jrayhawk: well it's done compiling
21:02 < gnusha> nanoengineer.git: d942d3d remove bends_rcsid and bonds_rcsid from sim/src/newtables.c
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21:19 < gnusha> nanoengineer.git: 4b96310 ignore more build objects
21:19 < gnusha> nanoengineer.git: da5eeec these two Makefiles get overwritten via automake
21:19 < gnusha> nanoengineer.git: 5d4c84f Revert change to HDF5_SimResults.cpp from d5eee5.
21:28 < klafka> is it bad if a library you are building in python depends on scipy?
21:28 < klafka> that's a fairly standard requirement for numerical computing in python
21:28 < klafka> right?
21:31 < nmz787> kanzure: are you working on nanoengineer stuff now?
21:31 < nmz787> README looks good
21:32 < nmz787> although the anchor/section links aren't correct in the top section
21:32 < nmz787> oh, nevermind
21:32 < nmz787> i think my browser just wanted to screw with me
21:33 < gnusha> nanoengineer.git: 640e48b even more .gitignore refinements
21:33 < gnusha> nanoengineer.git: 4ed98e9 remove old makefiles from cad/src/ and sim/src/
21:33 < gnusha> nanoengineer.git: 6a8f1c5 atombase.c and samevals.c should also be ignored
21:34 < gnusha> nanoengineer.git: 4febd2a atombase.c and samevals.c should also be ignored
21:35 < kanzure> klafka: scipy is perfectly fine to use
21:38 < kanzure> jrayhawk: i'm fairly lost about ssh -X here.. ssh -X bryan@gnusha.org "DISPLAY=:10 sudo chroot /root/nanoengineer-chroot 'python ~/code/nanoengineer/cad/src/main.py'" ?
21:40 < nmz787> you might have to set the DISPLAY inside the chroot
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21:41 < nmz787> kanzure: http://dgz.dyndns.org/mediawiki/index.php/HOWTO_X11_forwarding_a_chroot
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21:44 < kanzure> "xauth add $(cat /tmp/X)" doesn't work because /tmp is not the same
21:45 < nmz787> email?
21:45 < kanzure> what?
21:45 < nmz787> so you don't have any common directories?
21:46 < kanzure> it's chroot..
21:47 < nmz787> "Find a carelessly-left hard link that leads outside the jail (though symbolic links don't escape jail, hard links do)."
21:48 < kanzure> _X11TransSocketINETConnect() can't get address for localhost:6010: Name or service not known
21:49 < nmz787> # mount --bind /tmp /tmp/chroot/tmp
21:49 < nmz787> (or wherever your chroot is
21:49 < nmz787> )
21:50 < kanzure> actually i don't have mount permission on my vserver anyway
21:51 < nmz787> hardlink didnt work?
21:51 < nmz787> wait
21:52 < nmz787> why can't you just export the magic cookie to a file in the chroot dir
21:52 < nmz787> then it will be there when you chroot
21:54 < kanzure> i'll just copy the file contents. no big deal.
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22:01 < kanzure> hrmm i guess i will have to figure out how to run X too
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22:06 < kanzure> jrayhawk: *poke*
22:07 < kanzure> well i guess i need to get xterm forwarding first outside of the chroot
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22:14 < jrayhawk> "i'll just copy the file contents. no big deal." sounds like a fine plan; what's the problem?
22:16 < kanzure> jrayhawk: i'm trying to run xterm on gnusha without the chroot, and this isn't working
22:16 < kanzure> i figure this is a good first test case
22:17 < kanzure> bryan@gnusha:~$ echo $DISPLAY gives me localhost:10.0
22:18 < jrayhawk> xterm doesn't run for me either; don't know why
22:18 < jrayhawk> xlinks2 works fine, though!
22:18 < kanzure> oh there we go
22:18 < kanzure> alright then
22:21 < kanzure> jrayhawk: i get, "_X11TransSocketINETConnect() can't get address for localhost:6011: Name or service not known"
22:21 < kanzure> "xterm Xt error: Can't open display: localhost:11.0"
22:22 < kanzure> inside the chroot
22:22 < jrayhawk> Oh, yeah, /etc/root@gnusha:/# cat /etc/hosts
22:22 < jrayhawk> cat: /etc/hosts: No such file or directory
22:22 < jrayhawk> hurf
22:22 < kanzure> ssh -X bryan@gnusha.org -> xauth list, su, chroot /root/nanoengineer-chroot/ /bin/bash, su nanoengineeruser, xauth add $(cat /pasted/file)
22:23 < kanzure> should i add "gnusha" as an entry?
22:23 < jrayhawk> you can use DISPLAY=127.0.0.1:11 or :6011 or something I think?
22:23 < jrayhawk> But yeah, a 127.0.0.1 localhost entry will make your life easier
22:23 < kanzure> Warning: locale not supported by C library, locale unchanged
22:23 < kanzure> xterm: Error 32, errno 2: No such file or directory
22:23 < kanzure> Reason: get_pty: not enough ptys
22:24 < kanzure> xterm Xt error: Can't open display: 127.0.0.1:6011
22:24 < kanzure> i guess i shouldn't be trying with xterm
22:24 < jrayhawk> Yeah, xterm has complicated demands
22:24 < kanzure> xeyes it is!
22:24 < kanzure> there we go
22:24 < kanzure> DISPLAY=127.0.0.1:11 xeyes
22:25 < kanzure> aww i got an exception in python
22:26 < kanzure> X Error: BadAccess (attempt to access private resource denied) 10
22:26 < kanzure> Major opcode: 2 (X_ChangeWindowAttributes)
22:46 < kanzure> OSError: glut: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
22:47 < kanzure> at
22:47 < kanzure> ok freeglut3 fixes th
22:47 < kanzure> *that
22:47 < kanzure> Xlib:  extension "GLX" missing on display "127.0.0.1:11.0".
22:50 < kanzure> ok freeglut3 fixes th
22:50 < kanzure> *i get the same error when trying to run glxgears from mesa-util
22:52 < kanzure> "glxinfo -display 127.0.0.1:11" says the same thing about glx missing
23:05 < jrayhawk> Yeah, dri will be a bit difficult without /dev/dri
23:06 < jrayhawk> libgl1-mesa-swx11 is probably what you want
23:06 < kanzure> on my localhost?
23:06 < jrayhawk> On the remote host.
23:06 < kanzure> in the chroot?
23:06 < jrayhawk> Yeah.
23:07 < kanzure> it says it will remove "libgl1-mesa-dev libgl1-mesa-dri libgl1-mesa-glx libglu1-mesa-dev libglu1-xorg-dev libqt4-dev xlibmesa-gl-dev"
23:10 < jrayhawk> good
23:10 < kanzure> glxgears doesn't seem to work :/
23:10 < kanzure> oh, no, it's just very slow
23:10 < kanzure> ok cool
23:10 < kanzure> 2 frames in 6.8 seconds =  0.294 FPS
23:12 < kanzure> well it seems to run
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23:20 < gnusha> nanoengineer.git: 4a5b6dc two minor changes to get source running on target machines
23:20 < kanzure> ok making a tarball
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23:28 < kanzure> jrayhawk: thanks for the assist
23:28 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/nanoengineer/nanoengineer-chroot-debootstrap
23:28 < kanzure> (1.2 GB) http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/nanoengineer/nanoengineer-chroot.tar.gz
23:29 < kanzure> can someone please confirm that it works for them?
23:30 < kanzure> su nanoengineeruser
23:30 < kanzure> python ~/code/nanoengineer/cad/src/main.py
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23:38 < gnusha> nanoengineer.git: 2a02220 chroot creation script (tutorial)
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23:53 < jrayhawk> You might want to apt-get clean before making that tar file
23:54 < kanzure> kl'slsdjjlsdjkl;asd
23:56 < kanzure> eh that only removed a few megabytes
--- Log closed Mon Apr 30 00:00:56 2012