--- Log opened Mon Aug 20 00:00:09 2012
--- Day changed Mon Aug 20 2012
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01:12 < Mokbortolan_1> check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wu5XIfzh6J8
01:12 < Mokbortolan_1> cloth electronics demo circuit I built w/my daughter this weekend
01:17 < nmz787> pretty cool
01:19 < Mokbortolan_1> I particularly liked how I could just .. tie things to the LED pins with thread
01:19 < Mokbortolan_1> that was nice
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06:39 < archels> Mokbortolan_1: This video has been removed by the user.
06:39 < archels> what
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06:46 < archels> kanzure: Why is KurzweilAI running news stories on this Extreme Futurist event?
06:46 < archels> oh, then again, there's that weird episode where Ray was crossdressing as 'Ramona'.
06:57 <@kanzure> "extreme futurist festival" is just some terrible conference
06:57 <@kanzure> kurzweilai.net will basically run any story you send them
07:10 < archels> evidently.
07:10 < archels> unrelated http://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=2349257
07:10 < archels> "Quality happens only when someone is responsible for it."
07:20 <@kanzure> no it just magically appears
07:21 <@kanzure> Mokbortolan_1: you should show us your brain visualization widget
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07:41 < foucist> archels: more importantly, why are you even looking @ kurzweil's site? :P
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07:44 < archels> foucist: meh, their newsletter runs interesting stuff now and again.
07:47 < archels> sure beats the futurity.org newsletter.
07:50 <@kanzure> archels: both of these sites are terrible
07:50 <@kanzure> how about you just read logs in here?
07:51 <@kanzure> nextbigfuture used to be okay, i dunno about any more
07:52 < foucist> # ./irclogs2newsletter \#\#hplusroadmap.log
07:52 < archels> kanzure: get some RSS feed bot in here that posts interesting links.
07:52 < foucist> Error: cannot parse information from all the noise.
07:52 <@kanzure> Error: too many glowing cats, fuck
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07:54 < foucist> i second the RSS feed bot motion
07:54 < foucist> that might be interesting
07:54 < foucist> although i predict i'll get pissed off at the link spam anyways
07:54 < foucist> ;)
07:54  * foucist doesn't really like clicking irc links anyways
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07:56 <@kanzure> when i was a young warthog.
07:58 <@kanzure> archels: the problem with your rss-posting-bot idea is that most links are terrible
07:58 <@kanzure> and delinquentme will orgasm over anything, and then we all have to share in the misery of stopping him
07:59 < archels> haha
07:59 < archels> but you're right, of course.
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08:03 <@kanzure> so who exactly would want to rent textbook chapters? http://reference-tree.com/ :/
08:03 <@kanzure> http://www.slugbooks.com/ seems to be ok for comparing textbook prices
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09:38 < Mokbortolan_1> kanzure: which brain vis widget?
09:38 < Mokbortolan_1> I have one of those?
09:40 <@kanzure> you said you were making one a while back
09:40 < Mokbortolan_1> uhhhhhh
09:40  * Mokbortolan_1 thinks.
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10:42 < archels> Mokbortolan_1: What happened to the wearable electronics video?
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10:57 < Mokbortolan_1> I moved it
10:57 < Mokbortolan_1> https://plus.google.com/115985833404672558790/posts/8vntr7Xa65x
10:57 < Mokbortolan_1> made a better video
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11:13 < archels> pretty neat
11:13 < archels> What's the resistivity of that conductive cloth?
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11:17 < chris_99> have you guys heard of the MS project that is designed to let you attach different devices using your skin as a conductor
11:18 < archels> yes
11:18 < archels> I'm not sure I'd want that kind of EM fields through my body.
11:20 < chris_99> it's gonna be very low current, should be fine
11:20 < chris_99> (i hope ;)
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11:32 < ThomasEgi> hm.. i know about some medical camera capsules that can be swalloed to take pictures of the digetstive system. it uses electric fields too. altho it is not very fast in transmittion.
11:33 < ThomasEgi> i wonder why MS would reinvent this wheel, i mean bluetooth was made for exactly that purpose
11:33 < Mokbortolan_1> archels: not sure, I think 9ohm/sqft
11:34 < Mokbortolan_1> https://plus.google.com/115985833404672558790/posts/8vntr7Xa65x
11:34 < Mokbortolan_1> whoops
11:34 < Mokbortolan_1> surface resistivity < 0.5/sq (unstretched)
11:34 < Mokbortolan_1> sq what?!?
11:35 < Mokbortolan_1> oh
11:35 < Mokbortolan_1> https://plus.google.com/115985833404672558790/posts/8vntr7Xa65x
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11:48 < archels> pretty good order of magnitude I guess. You could always fold it into a few layers to decrease the resistance further.
11:50 < archels> < AdrianG> they should GMO ephedra to methedra
11:50 < archels> (this is just now from #reddit-nootropics)
11:51 < archels> Why don't we have rogue biohackers that try to make psychoactive drugs with plants?
11:51 < archels> (or fungi or eukaryotic cells for that matter)
11:52 < yashgaroth> "oh no mr. fbi, biohacking is perfectly safe, don't worry" "well what are you making with it?" "...meth"
11:52 <@kanzure> "super meth"
11:53 < yashgaroth> and designing an entirely new enzyme to catalyze ephedrine to methamphetamine costs more than people seem to think
11:54 <@kanzure> archels: why do they have to be rogue?
11:54 < archels> because they are engineered to produce drugs that are considered rogue.
11:55 < ParahSailin> desoxyn is prescription drug
12:00 < archels> Apparently, amphetamines are naturally synthesized in plants and trees.
12:00 < archels> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_psychoactive_plants
12:02 < yashgaroth> yep
12:03 < yashgaroth> almost all the common drugs are from plants or simple derivatives thereof
12:03 < archels> So we'll just copy all the enzymes involved in that pathway and overexpress them in some sort of organism.
12:05 <@kanzure> like, a plant
12:05 <@kanzure> and then call it a hairy root culture
12:06 < yashgaroth> for most of them you'll have to discover the enzymes in the pathway first, though I'm not sure how much research has been done on poppies/coca/ma huang/ergot
12:07 < chris_99> isn't LSD very similar to ergot
12:07 < yashgaroth> and then tweaking since the native plant has had quite a lot of time to optimize production in the context of its other 20,000 proteins
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12:07 < yashgaroth> yes it is, just add ethylamide or something
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12:09 < yashgaroth> so for a legit company, there's little point since the 'activating' chemical modifications are super cheap when you can do them legally and at scale
12:10 < yashgaroth> however if you just want a plant that doesn't look like [illegal plant] but instead looks like daffodils, then maybe
12:11 < chris_99> do any governements have a blanket ban on molecules containing a specific group of atoms?
12:11 < yashgaroth> yes
12:11 < chris_99> such as?
12:11 < yashgaroth> .wik federal analog act
12:11 < yashgaroth> oh no where's paperbot
12:11 < yashgaroth> anyway yeah the US has the analog act
12:11 < chris_99> cheers interesting
12:12 < chris_99> the UK doesn't have that i presume?
12:12 < chris_99> as we seem to have a lot of 'legal drugs'
12:12 < chris_99> *legal high
12:12 < yashgaroth> yeah the mephedrone menace
12:12 < chris_99> yah
12:13 < yashgaroth> that one's based on khat iirc
12:13 < chris_99> theres things like ecstacy clones and all sorts i believe
12:13 < yashgaroth> ecstasy is still an ephedrine derivative
12:14 < chris_99> ephedrine being what sorry?
12:14 < yashgaroth> amphetamine, basically
12:14 < chris_99> aha
12:14 < yashgaroth> ephedrine is the chemical which all the amphetamines are derived from, since it occurs naturally
12:15 < chris_99> interesting, wheres it occur?
12:15 < yashgaroth> ma huang
12:16 < chris_99> http://centurysupplements.com/ma-huang-rp-capsules so that is pure ephedrine?
12:16 < yashgaroth> it's like with poppies/morphine and heroin and oxycodone; the natural form is pretty good but then you add an ethyl group or something and BAM
12:17 < chris_99> aha gotcha
12:18 < chris_99> oh that was only 25mg of ma huang extract apparenlty
12:19 < yashgaroth> it's really grey area since the plant is legal
12:19 < chris_99> heh interesting
12:19 < yashgaroth> in california it was legal until this year, still legal in canada etc
12:19 < yashgaroth> places with meth problems tend to outlaw it
12:20 < chris_99> makes sense, makes me wonder why the 'Breaking bad' crew don't grow the stuff ;)
12:22 < yashgaroth> I think they do something like that, since the methylamine just adds that final methyl group
12:22 < yashgaroth> then again phenol etc is relatively easy to get, and you don't have to purify it out of some leaves
12:23 < yashgaroth> idk I'm not a chemist
12:25 < chris_99> theres no such thing as a matter assembler yet is there, in any form?
12:33 < yashgaroth> depends how vague you want to be with your terms, but no
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13:01 < nmz787> there are also two papers that list an acacia tree in west texas as having meth and amphetamine
13:01 < nmz787> but they were by the same authors so it's hard to say if its reliable
13:02 < nmz787> from wiki "amphetamine" article "In 1997 and 1998,[58][59] researchers at Texas A&M University claimed to have found amphetamine and methamphetamine in the foliage of two Acacia species native to Texas, A. berlandieri andA. rigidula. Previously, both of these compounds had been thought to be human inventions. These findings have never been duplicated, and the analyses are believed by many biochemists to be the result of experim
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15:16 < HaXB1n> hi, do you know where I can get how to synthesize Dopamine (protocol)?
15:22 <@kanzure> how about ewen's method
15:22 <@kanzure> http://movementdisorders.org/education/onlinecme/levodopa/print.pdf
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15:26 <@kanzure> yashgaroth: are you sure all synthesizers require a gas supply?
15:27 < yashgaroth> did I say that?
15:27 <@kanzure> are you implying that?
15:27 < TheEmpath> what is "is"?
15:27 <@kanzure> oh sorry
15:27 <@kanzure> that's not you, that's max
15:27 <@kanzure> the other max
15:27 < EnLilaSko-> Is = ice
15:27 <@kanzure> fuck
15:27 < yashgaroth> what
15:27 <@kanzure> it's max hodak, not you
15:28 <@kanzure> sorry :(
15:28 <@kanzure> max is running a 'remote lab equipment over the web' operation
15:28 <@kanzure> so he should be knowledgable about synthesizers; so now i'm sort of confused
15:28 <@kanzure> i'm pretty sure must microarrayers don't use argon environments
15:28 < yashgaroth> oh ok
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15:33 <@kanzure> yashgaroth: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/diybio/CUKEhuS-jus
15:33 < yashgaroth> yeah I mean it's probably true
15:34 <@kanzure> i wonder how i missed that?
15:34 <@kanzure> i mean what about all the microfluidic phosphoramidite synthesizers? they are always liquid-phase reactions
15:34 <@kanzure> and sometimes there's air/gas to force valves to open/close.. but that doesn't reaaally count
15:36 < yashgaroth> I could understand no oxygen, but nitrogen? shit's hella stable
15:37 <@kanzure> adding gas to a system is just another subsystem of work and things to do, so my first reaction is to choose a simpler system
15:37 <@kanzure> if you can't get the reaction stability under control, i can see how gas is a good idea
15:37 <@kanzure> s/stability/yield\/stability\/purity
15:39 <@kanzure> still, i don't think $20,000 is a reasonable project price for a giant microarrayer
15:39 < yashgaroth> true
15:40 <@kanzure> i think delinquentme assembled his crummy liquid mover for <$5000
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16:07 <@kanzure> teklord: hi
16:07 < teklord> Hello
16:16 <@kanzure> what brings you here?
16:18 < teklord> Im here because of my inerest in transhumanism, cyborg technology, etc.
16:18 < teklord> However, I am a skeptic and dislike the dogmatic Kurzweilian Singularitarians
16:20 <@kanzure> well, you're in the right place.. we're the official ray kurzweil eliezer yudkowsky hater club
16:21  * teklord high fives *
16:27 < teklord> I'm looking for documentaries on retro-futurism.  Any suggestions?
16:28 < yashgaroth> as in steampunk or hovercars?
16:28 < teklord> No.
16:29 < teklord> As in atomic-age sc8ience speculation of the future
16:29 < teklord> Google the term.
16:30 < yashgaroth> oh, I did...looks like hovercars
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16:30 < teklord> Sorry for the poor typing skills, I'm on a crappy little netbook with missing keys. < Very difficult to type.
16:30 < yashgaroth> I don't actually know of any, though I'd be interested to know as well
16:31 < teklord> Youtube has a neat video called "1960s futuristic homes and kitchens"
16:32 < yashgaroth> oh cool I'll check it out
16:41 <@kanzure> meh just slap up a picture of bucky fuller and call it done
16:49 < teklord> On the "downloading hardware over the web" video series on gnusha.org, the first video mentions scientology.  What are they talking about?  Ive read a lot about them recently.
16:50 <@kanzure> wait, why does it mention scientiology
16:50 <@kanzure> *scientology
16:50 < teklord> That is what I am asking.
16:50 <@kanzure> ignore it
16:50 < Mokbortolan_1> SCIENtology, it's got some of the same letters at SCIENce
16:50 < teklord> I would like to know what the sea org is doing.
16:51 <@kanzure> teklord: publicity
16:51 <@kanzure> :(
16:51 < teklord> Ah, okay.  Scientology isnt very good at that, though.
16:51 <@kanzure> i don't think publicity should be the goal if you are trying to do better seasteading
16:51 <@kanzure> so i don't see the relevance?
16:52 <@kanzure> oh you are probably talking about the end of patri friedman's presentation
16:52 <@kanzure> i think it appears in the first few seconds of video
16:52 < teklord> I am.
16:52 < brownies> why does his video mention scientology?
16:52 <@kanzure> i think he was trying to make a joke, i forget
16:53 < teklord> It seems like a joke, but I was instantly interested in the subject as soon as I heard it because I have been reading a lot about their pyramid scheme / slavery.
16:54 < teklord> Acually, for a good laugh you should watch the Steve fishman interview on Google Video.  Searching for "fishman scientology" should yeild results.
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17:29 < tashoutang> morninig
17:35 < jrayhawk> teklord: http://www.google.com/search?q=apple+future+shock&tbm=vid
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17:38 < jrayhawk> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EC5sbdvnvQM which manages to be adorably anachronistic and remarkably precient
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17:39 < jrayhawk> http://www.google.com/search?q=a+day+made+of+glass&tbm=vid is some modern futurism
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18:50 <@kanzure> "Thiel sold the shares at an average price of $19.73, earning him nearly $400 million for his original $500,000 investment"
18:50 <@kanzure> oh. so much for my $10 billion estimate.
18:51 < tashoutang> 關閉下列語言的翻譯功能：英文On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 3:26 PM, Conor <fennell.conor@gmail.com> wrote:
18:51 < tashoutang> Coming from a programming background, I am looking for the:                * The "hello world" projects of Synthetic Biology.                * What are the generic tools a Synthetic Biologist uses                * Best practice guides to "programming" your bacteria :)                * How do you fail quickly, have small feedback loops in your experiments.                * Whats the
18:51 < tashoutang> equivalent of design, implement, test ( Repeat) for synthetic biology.
18:52 < tashoutang> does anyone know what the synthetic biology is?
18:52 < yashgaroth> it's what people call genetic engineering now that genetic engineering apparently is evil, or something
18:52 <@kanzure> tashoutang: it's just genetic engineering
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18:53 <@kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/diybio/faq answers these questions and more
18:53 <@kanzure> yashgaroth: or if you feel the need to be helpful, maybe you could update some of the q/a..
18:53 < yashgaroth> yeeeeah
18:53 < tashoutang> ohhhhhh.....
18:54 <@kanzure> i doubt that programmers are going to stop applying programming analogies
18:55 <@kanzure> but, just because they think it's programming, doesn't confer them any particular molecular biology skills
18:55 <@kanzure> (although it certainly helps with bioinformatics stuff)
18:55 <@kanzure> maybe there is something more productive we could point them to?
18:58 < brownies> oh, you actually wrote answers
18:58 <@kanzure> sort of.. these are the "old" answers
18:58 < tashoutang> @K: offerring them the conditions and parameters...???
18:58 <@kanzure> tashoutang: what?
18:59 <@kanzure> brownies: but here are the questions extracted from my archives.. http://diyhpl.us/wiki/diybio/faq/better-questions/
18:59 < tashoutang> I mean  "the molecular biology skills "means the annealing temp,...
18:59 < tashoutang> something like that...?
19:00 < brownies> "I am a programmer: what is the "hello world" of synthetic biology or genetic engineering?"
19:00 < tashoutang> OH I see your archives
19:00 < brownies> i demand an answer to this one
19:00 <@kanzure> most programmers (when they ask questions like "What is the hello world of biology?") are not asking about annealing temperatures..
19:00 < JayDugger> A: Boil water.
19:01 <@kanzure> brownies: um. culturing bacteria.
19:01 < tashoutang> ha
19:01 <@kanzure> or doing a pcr reaction
19:01 < brownies> create a swan-necked flask... and leave it outside. forever.
19:01 < yashgaroth> running a gel
19:01 <@kanzure> brownies: the problem is that people think that the "hello world" is some sort of genetic engineering project, where they can make their cats sing songs on the first day or something
19:01 < brownies> doing a basic PCR seems reasonable.
19:01 < yashgaroth> it's hard to compare when 'hello world' is a 5 minute explanation unless you've never seen a computer
19:01 <@kanzure> "PCR" is not programming though :P
19:01 < brownies> kanzure: i understand. first hello world, then glowing cats.
19:02 <@kanzure> i imagine that most programmers expect "hello world" to mean "i want to make a plasmid with my own custom gene" or "i want to modify the genome of an organism"
19:02 < brownies> kanzure: well, the idea is just that it should be a basic exercise that gives you a glimpse of a bunch of things
19:02 < brownies> why? are most programmers idiots?
19:02 < brownies> ...ok, but still.
19:03 <@kanzure> there is a huge influx of programmers into synthetic biology that get SO EXCITED that "biology is like computers!!"
19:03 -!- Juul [~Juul@208.87.217.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
19:03 <@kanzure> brb
19:03 <@kanzure> oh, nevermind. phone.
19:03 < yashgaroth> creating the plasmid = figuring out what DNA you need, ordering it, ordering primers and/or digest mixes, running the digests/pcr/ligations, putting that on a gel...
19:03 < yashgaroth> and then the other 80% I won't bother typing
19:04 < yashgaroth> I mean, I understand where the mailing list is coming from...it's a lot easier to just answer individual questions than writing a huge faq
19:04 < yashgaroth> and with a faq you need to figure out where each person's understanding level is at
19:04 <@kanzure> yashgaroth: and then lots of debugging on each of those steps because FUCK
19:04 < yashgaroth> and you can't say "read this book" because they run away crying
19:05 <@kanzure> "oh i seem to have contaminated my $300 oligo order" shiiiit
19:05 < yashgaroth> "hey my pcr didn't work, [bunch of useless details], what happened?!?!?"
19:05 <@kanzure> hah
19:05 < yashgaroth> like should we expect people to know how pcr works?
19:06 <@kanzure> well, from a "programmer getting introduced to synthetic biology", no
19:06 < yashgaroth> it's not like understanding assembly language or something, but 'mix it together and it might work' isn't enough
19:06 < brownies> i don't understand this attitude
19:06 < brownies> at all
19:06 < yashgaroth> which
19:06 < brownies> do programmers get together and worry if other people will understand their answers, with their soft little brains?
19:06 <@kanzure> huh?
19:06 < JayDugger> Yes.
19:06 < brownies> no. they just write an FAQ. with some answers. if people don't understand the answers, they google until they understand it.
19:06 <@kanzure> well, no, they come in here and ask
19:07 < brownies> yashgaroth: the whole "you can't say 'read this book' because they run away crying"
19:07 <@kanzure> or to the mailing ilst (more likely)
19:07 < JayDugger> Really? Not my experience, at least at work.
19:07 < brownies> bah, i say. read ALL the books!
19:07 < yashgaroth> yes but there is no resource even barely comparable to programming knowledge
19:07 <@kanzure> yeah a lot of these things are social knowledge transfer in labs
19:07 < yashgaroth> well I wish they were all like you brownies
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19:07 <@kanzure> so even if they do read the books,
19:07 <@kanzure> these people come in with pre-conceived notions
19:07 <@kanzure> "biology MUST be like programming because otherwise it would be absurd"
19:07 < brownies> yashgaroth: they can be
19:07 < yashgaroth> getting into synbio isn't like getting into programming, it's like getting into AI development
19:07 < brownies> yashgaroth: by writing for that audience, you scare off all the dumb people... problem solved!
19:08 <@kanzure> ai development isn't a good analogy :P
19:08 < yashgaroth> can't I just shout at them instead? then it's cathartic
19:08 < brownies> you sound like a guy who's never developed AI -_-
19:08 < yashgaroth> exactly, I have no idea about it, but want to get into it despite not knowing programming
19:08 < yashgaroth> programming:biology AI dev:synbio
19:08 < yashgaroth> or whatever
19:08 <@kanzure> what? :P
19:09 < yashgaroth> err, ::
19:09 < brownies> o.O
19:09 < yashgaroth> I can't imagine getting into synbio without a background in regular biology, I mean
19:09 < brownies> so what? don't most reasonable people know biology?
19:09 < brownies> ...ok, fine, but still.
19:09 <@kanzure> not to the level that you need to make a basic hello world project work
19:10 < brownies> well, *i* do, so... let's get started on building me a glowing cat, dammit!
19:10 <@kanzure> brownies what biology background do you have anyway?
19:10 <@kanzure> i know it's not material to the conversation, i'm just curious
19:10 < yashgaroth> and it's all fun for making a glowing petri dish, but if they have no fucking clue about any aspect of biology other than running three protocols, what's the point
19:11 <@kanzure> i think a really good example is xp_prg who used to come in here and hang out on diybio
19:11 <@kanzure> he was definitely more from a software background
19:12 < brownies> kanzure: i never told you i started off wanting to be in bioengineering?
19:12 <@kanzure> no
19:12 < brownies> well... yeah.
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19:12 <@kanzure> brownies: i also don't know if you have any lab experience, or what your academic knowledge of biology is
19:12 < brownies> i'm no bio genius but i have decent lab experience and i read all the things
19:12 <@kanzure> lab experience in molecular/genetics stuff?
19:13 < brownies> ah, i worked in a lab for a while, on drug engineering stuff
19:13 <@kanzure> antibody stuff?
19:13 < yashgaroth> or small molecule?
19:13 < brownies> nah, time-release coatings
19:13 <@kanzure> isn't that a chemistry lab? :p
19:13 <@kanzure> or materials
19:13 < brownies> yeah, i guess my lab background is more chemistry
19:14 < brownies> i ran a gel at some point though. no PCR, though.
19:14 <@kanzure> i haven't worked in a chemistry lab, so i don't want to sound snobbish making comparisons
19:14 < brownies> haha
19:14 <@kanzure> but.. isn't chemistry more repeatable?
19:15 < yashgaroth> not when it's getting digested by biology
19:15 <@kanzure> like if you run a reaction at the right temperature, pressure, etc., you can variably expect it to just fucking work?
19:15 < brownies> kanzure: isn't programming just a bunch of for loops?
19:15 < brownies> like... if you put the variables in... it just works?
19:15 < brownies> ;)
19:15 <@kanzure> yes
19:16 <@kanzure> compared to biology, programming is fairly straightforward.. read the documentation, write some code, run the incantations.
19:16 <@kanzure> (oh and piss/swear during the whole thing for added benefit)
19:17 < JayDugger> Covered under the "incantations."
19:17 < brownies> rofl
19:17 < brownies> kanzure: i guess you've only done apps and scrapers, though, right
19:17 < brownies> (time for me to be snooty about programming!)
19:17 <@kanzure> i've done all sorts of crazy projects
19:18 <@kanzure> once a long time ago i was writing C networking libraries for winsocks, but i don't know why
19:18 <@kanzure> uhm that shouldn't be plural
19:19 < tashoutang> it is very interesting about your conversation about "programmer" vs. "biology knowledge"....
19:19 <@kanzure> so i find genomecompilercorp to be sorta hilarious
19:19 <@kanzure> "IT'S A COMPILER!!" is basically to appease all the people asking "So where is my synthetic biology compiler wink wink"...
19:19 <@kanzure> but in reality it's just some actionscript/adobe air crap
19:20 <@kanzure> i'm sure you can implement a compiler in actionscript but realistically it's an abuse of the word :p
19:23 <@kanzure> it's more about the expectations.. in programming you expect there to be official documentation. in biology it's more like "well somebody may have asked that same question before, or there might be some theory you can apply to figure out an answer, but yeah you basically have to search to find an answer to figure out your next step"
19:24 < tashoutang> @k: so you basicly think that the "pure programmer" has too simple idea about biological issues....
19:24 < brownies> i really feel like your overly narrow view of programming is constraining this metaphor
19:24 < tashoutang> they make conclusions too quickly
19:24 < brownies> or maybe we should swap out the phrase "programming" with "computer science"
19:24 <@kanzure> brownies: well, i know what "hello world" is heh..
19:25 < brownies> "hey man, how do i optimize this approximation of a solution to an NP-complete problem?"
19:25 <@kanzure> and http://wp.moma.org/talk_to_me/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Paola-Antonelli_011.jpg
19:25 < brownies> "oh yeah, bro, just check out the official docs"
19:25 < brownies> kanzure: you see? -_-
19:25 <@kanzure> that took at least a summer of 4 or 5 grad students being beaten
19:25 < brownies> haha
19:25 < delinquentme> SOO
19:25 <@kanzure> you can do that project on your own, but it's not like it's documented well
19:25 < delinquentme> I ate some Kale today
19:25 < delinquentme> and I think like
19:25 < delinquentme> my insides are like " WTFMATE"
19:26 <@kanzure> brownies: no, i'm not talking about actual computer science :)
19:26 < jrayhawk> dehydrated kale is unbelievably addictive
19:27 < delinquentme> jrayhawk, I've heard that!
19:27 < delinquentme> also that it gets sweeter when its had a frost?
19:27 < jrayhawk> that's an interesting claim
19:28 <@kanzure> i tried to wash a cricket down my sink drain two days ago
19:28 <@kanzure> now my drain pipes are chirping
19:28 < brownies> kanzure: well, ok, but "look up docs and follow the instructions" is basically analogous to carrying out basic chemical reactions that people have done since the beginning of time
19:28 < yashgaroth> dehydrated crickets are also unbelievably addictive
19:29 <@kanzure> brownies: molecular biology techniques, like pcr, are relatively new
19:29 <@kanzure> <50 years old
19:29 < jrayhawk> if you have problems with insoluable fiber you might want to treat your gut better
19:29 < brownies> kanzure: so is iOS
19:29 <@kanzure> programming languages are different though..
19:29 <@kanzure> you have a set of syntax that you can apply and the compiler can tell you if you're right/wrong
19:30 <@kanzure> plus definitive documentation (with lots of sucky edge cases, missing docs, etc., but more often than not a good attempt at letting you use the device)
19:31 < tashoutang> @K: yeah, I agree with you, biological issues are not that simple..
19:31 < strangewarp> Kale is a super good food, I ought to eat it more often
19:32 < jrayhawk> oh, right, sugar is anti-freeze
19:33 <@kanzure> yashgaroth: maybe i'm just blowing smoke up brownies' ass. how has your python adventures been going?
19:33 <@kanzure> *have
19:33 < yashgaroth> well the freeze/thaw is probably lysing vesicles that have sugar in them
19:33 < yashgaroth> uhh pretty good I guess, since it was designed entirely by rational humans
19:33 < brownies> kanzure: yeah, but that's just infrastructure, and (somewhat) orthogonal to the actual science
19:34 < yashgaroth> and not shit like "A novel function found in M. windowsii that iterates a fibonacci series, Ku et al. (1978)"
19:34 < jrayhawk> would vesicles really be stable during mastication, though?
19:34 < brownies> kanzure: and yeah, you are
19:34 < brownies> ;)
19:34 < yashgaroth> sure, they're small enough to fit in between teeth
19:34 <@kanzure> brownies: well, i'm certainly not claiming that biology is "unknowable" or "impossible" or "very hard" - or i don't want to claim this, heh
19:35 <@kanzure> yashgaroth: so do you think there is a difference between programming a computer, versus "programming" a cell?
19:35 < yashgaroth> oh fuck yes
19:35 <@kanzure> apparently i am having trouble verbalizing this to brownies
19:35 < yashgaroth> it is hard to directly compare the two, of course
19:36 <@kanzure> well, programmers coming into biology looove to directly compare the two
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19:36 < yashgaroth> why can't they all just get together and make one plasmid design software program, instead of literally two dozen
19:37 <@kanzure> and it's hard to explain why that comparison is wrong or inappropriate
19:37 < jrayhawk> perhaps the solution is to force them to learn about every sort of RNA and attempt to make analogies for them
19:37 <@kanzure> i mean ultimately it's true that you can hack bacteria and genomes and make them do things, which is similar to programming
19:37 <@kanzure> but biology owes nothing to you to happen to turn out to be like programming computers
19:37 < yashgaroth> there's no real programming in synbio yet, it's all just cutting and pasting parts of other programs into each other
19:38 <@kanzure> they aren't really programs either though.. it's not like there's a "kernel" that allocates memory and resources
19:38 < brownies> comparing one science to another science? yes, how ridiculous
19:38 < brownies> kanzure just wants to convince me that he is some sort of mystic prophet of biology
19:38 <@kanzure> hardly.. no thanks
19:38 < yashgaroth> nah that's me
19:39 < yashgaroth> come my child, learn of ribosomes
19:39 <@kanzure> yashgaroth is the bryan bishop of synthetic biology
19:39 < brownies> "I have studied the great mysteries of PCR ... they cannot be analogized"
19:39 < jrayhawk> all hail yashgaroth, king of microbes
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19:39 <@kanzure> brownies: well, i can make lots of shitty xeroxing analogies about PCR
19:39 <@kanzure> but those analogies will not confer any practical benefits to you
19:39 < brownies> and, brace yourselves, because i already know about ribosomes *and* PCR -_-
19:40 < brownies> i read about it! IN A BOOK!
19:40 <@kanzure> except maybe when you're on step 8 in some project one day and you wonder "oh do i need to add dna to this mix?"
19:40 < jrayhawk> anyway, generally when i see people claiming genetics are "just like programming a computer" they also think genetic determinism is a real thing
19:40 <@kanzure> what do you mean by genetic determinism? like "epigenetics is a scam" ?
19:40 < yashgaroth> well that puts you ahead of 99% of programmers wanting to get into biology, brownies
19:40 < jrayhawk> more like "what's epigenetics?"
19:40 < jrayhawk> "what do you mean *if* it's expressed?"
19:41 <@kanzure> "what do you mean expressed" etc...
19:41 < jrayhawk> so making them look up the crazy variety of expression mechanisms is somewhat helpful
19:43 < yashgaroth> it's not like they need to know the difference between every type of rna polymerase, even I don't know that shit off-hand
19:43 < jrayhawk> But you're aware that RNA is incredibly complex and only some of it is driven by DNA
19:43 <@kanzure> some of those immune system polymerases are pretty fucked up :|
19:44 < brownies> i think only a fool would try to pretend things are 1:1 between such different spheres... but, at the same time, drawing parallels to existing knowledge is one major way to actually internalize new knowledge, so it's pretty unavoidable, especially since the fields do overlap some
19:44 < yashgaroth> oh it's just as complex as dna...moreso considering it folds
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19:45 < yashgaroth> you don't want to rely too heavily on analogies, though I agree they are useful
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19:46 <@kanzure> i think it would be more practical to show them some protocols
19:46 <@kanzure> and then tell them "ok make something out of this"
19:47 <@kanzure> maybe some protocol flashcards.. "pcr produces dna" "oh which protocols use dna"
19:48 <@kanzure> but this doesn't help with the genetics stuff. cAMP signalling is like tcp?? not really.
19:48 < brownies> i think we're all in agreement that you don't need to analogize all the things
19:49 < yashgaroth> where are the programmers getting into synbio hoping to end up? working in a lab, building their own lab and thinking up their own projects?
19:49 <@kanzure> i'm still trying to figure out what to do with these people
19:49 < brownies> especially with all the mechanics of reactions, sometimes you just have to go learn it
19:49 <@kanzure> yashgaroth: i think most of them would be okay with doing a hobbyist project
19:49 <@kanzure> yashgaroth: or at least that's what it seems like. i don't see people saying "i want to do a project at home so i can get a fancypants biojob"
19:49 < yashgaroth> as in GFP stuff, or reading current papers and finding something to explore
19:49 < brownies> where are all these people anyway?
19:50 <@kanzure> brownies: diybio. heh.
19:50 <@kanzure> http://groups.google.com/group/diybio
19:50 <@kanzure> here's one from today.. https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#
19:50 <@kanzure> er.. https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/diybio/CUKEhuS-jus
19:51 < brownies> ahhh. i'm not on the mailing list. i guess i'm missing all the fun.
19:52 <@kanzure> oh wait. wrong thread.
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20:01 < Burninate> 'evening guys
20:01 < Burninate> I just found this, and thought you might be interested:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Rp4V3Sj5jE
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20:14 <@kanzure> fucking crickets arrrrghh http://youtube.com/watch?v=SMTz9nIUkGc
20:17 < nmz787> kanzure
20:17 <@kanzure> hm?
20:17 < nmz787> do you know any EE for hire?
20:17 < nmz787> actually, I do
20:17 <@kanzure> john griessen.
20:17 <@kanzure> oh but you hate him.
20:18 < nmz787> hah
20:18 <@kanzure> then, ThomasEgi.
20:18 < nmz787> no i don't
20:18 < nmz787> well I think we may need to hire someone to build a stepper motor controller
20:18 < nmz787> for the laser
20:19 < nmz787> from some things I've been reading about low speed movement
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20:23 < tashoutang> Burninate: this is really good film!!!!!!!
20:24 < nmz787> high holding torque motors are worse for microstepping because their movement deviates from the sine and cosine model
20:24 < teklord> kanzure: I came back here because I had just remembered something that was vaguely relevant to our initial coversation earlier tonight.  You told me to put up a picture of Bucky Fuller and "call it done".  I was just reminded of a recent communicatin I had with Warren Ellis.  I'll grab a link to his quote in a moment.  I need to find it again.
20:24 <@kanzure> warren ellis is doktor sleepless, right?
20:25 < strangewarp> Warren Ellis got brainjacked by the "Strong AI is impossible" camp, somehow, didn't he?
20:26 < teklord> http://warrenellis.tumblr.com/post/29087380331/
20:26 < teklord> Strong AI should not be confused with "I live in a fantasy land with magic robots who do magic" people.
20:27 < foucist> strong ai gives the best blowjobs ever!
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20:27 < strangewarp> teklord: that seems to be what Ellis is doing, yeah
20:27 < teklord> He's right, too.  Problem?
20:27  * strangewarp rereads...
20:28 < strangewarp> ...No, I don't think he's right
20:28 <@kanzure> human brains are clearly real, so anyone who tells you otherwise is lying to you
20:29 < teklord> I know solipsists who would disagree.
20:29 < strangewarp> ugh
20:29 < teklord> Or do I...?\
20:29 <@kanzure> truly you have a dizzying intellect
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20:30 < teklord> You know so little, but I hope you play arm chai psychologist with me and tell me about me.
20:30 < teklord> s/chai/chair
20:30 < foucist> arm chai tea
20:30 <@kanzure> nope sorry.
20:30  * kanzure fetches foods
20:31  * Burninate demands a convincingly funny interpretation of 'Arm Chai'
20:31  * teklord is drunk, will probably regret this interaction while working tomorrow
20:31 < strangewarp> It's trendy to want to ride the zeitgeist by denying the legitimacy of visions of transcendence and/or pleasure, I suppose
20:31 < strangewarp> I'd like to give that tendency thebenefit of the doubt, but all too often it turns out to be banal contrarianism
20:32 < teklord> I do not deny visions that seem within reach.  I look at the visions of the peopel who came before us, and see nothing but radical dogma and errors in logic.  I'm sorry you cannot realize this.
20:33 < teklord> Kurzweilian dogmatism is a joke, at best.  Makes for good science fiction, and the pseudo-new age religionists would love it, I assume.  I just wish there was legicle, rational, logical, peer review science to back up such radical claims.
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20:33 < teklord> I'm all ears to facts.
20:33 < foucist> teklord: ah, i was wondering why you would even bring up hypothetical people that would disagree..  but you're drunk so that explains it! ;)
20:33 < strangewarp> ...You think the fact that history appears cyclical in some ways proves that it will continue to be cyclical in other specific ways?
20:34 < teklord> foucist: I admit, Im shitfaced and probably talking out my arse.  I apologize in advance.
20:34 < teklord> strangewarp: No, I just do not fill the gaps of my knoweldge with gods or dogmas, like the Kurzweilians.
20:35 < teklord> Any day now ray will be saved by magic compters, you just wait and see.....
20:35 < teklord> pfffffft\
20:35 < teklord> even brilliant men like Aubry deGrey are fallacious in their logic and peer reviews of so-called evidences they have located in reality
20:35 < strangewarp> There's a difference between "compuers, which exist, and which are becoming more complex, may become complex enough to superseded human ability" and "gods and dogmas", sorry
20:36 < teklord> Aubry's beard is inspirational
20:36 < strangewarp> I think Kurzweil's camp is full of irrational optimism, but they may be right for the wrong reasons
20:36 < teklord> I would LOVE for Ray to be right.  Last time we spoke, he was too doped on pills to make sense to me
20:36 < teklord> Seemed like religion gone arawy.
20:37  * strangewarp shrug
20:37 < teklord> s/arawy/awry
20:38 < foucist> hmm
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20:38 < strangewarp> If something that may happen in real-life incidentally has similar aspects to religious apocalypse stories, is it reasonable to criticize it on that basis? I much prefer criticizing singularity stuff for having a bunch of question-marks inbetween its start condition and end condition, really..
20:38 < foucist> teklord: i insist on proof/citations of the fallacy in their logic
20:38 < teklord> I really, really enjoy the notions put forth in his lectures, and I especially look forward to the predictions he's made come true; he's gfot a great, aamazing track record of prediction\
20:39 < foucist> teklord: just claiming they're fallacious in their logic doesn't make it so
20:39 < teklord> foucist: be more specific, and I shall follow suit
20:40 -!- roksprok [~Zac@50-0-91-31.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: roksprok]
20:40 < teklord> I am writing from a small netbook, sorry for the spelling errors and grammar propblems et al., Ive been drinking and this is tiny.;
20:40 < foucist> there are limits to what peer review science can get you, and also peer review science can often fall short of being rational/logical
20:40 < strangewarp> I'm on a tiny netbook too.. they're pretty awful
20:41 < gnusha> laser_etcher.git: 261c66c 
20:41 < teklord> foucist: there are absolutly no limits to peer review science.  That is to day, if you make a claim about science, then for sure, 100% of the time, we shoudl be able to test and peer review your findings and methodolgy.  Period
20:42 < teklord> Is gnusha a bot?
20:42 < strangewarp> yep
20:42 < teklord> Give me details, what's it do,a nd is it interactive for people with my chans privs?\
20:42 < strangewarp> I've only seen it keep track of certain github repos
20:42 < teklord> That much is obvioous, but which, and why?\
20:43 < strangewarp> I think it belongs to kanzure? I'm not sure exactly what it keeps track of, or why
20:44 < foucist> teklord: how many people doing peer review science even actually understand how to do science properly? even understand proper use of statistics and to avoid cognitive biases and so on?
20:46 < teklord> foucist: that statement stinks of intellectual stupidity.  Sorry, but it does.
20:46 < teklord> If you cant see why, then you're perhaps a source of the stink.
20:46 < teklord> What is yoru field of work?  do you work in any of the sciences?
20:47 < foucist> teklord: if you don't ask yourself that question at all that seems even worse
20:48 < teklord> You've *obviously* never been around many labs.  That's okay, everyone needs to start somwhere.  You're just starting at the beginning.
20:48 < teklord> baby steps turn into ginat leaps for mankind,.
20:49 < teklord> Keep seeking knowledge.
20:51 < strangewarp> It would be convenient if it were possible to purge all of the impurity and compromise that people engage in, in order to cover up bad methodology, or churn out required papers, or compensate for shitty funding, or even for no reason at all other than a lack of knowledge of statistics and biases
20:51 < strangewarp> But, it isn't
20:51 < strangewarp> So, the scientific community is imperfect
20:51 < strangewarp> The scientific method tends to keep things in check eventually, of course
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20:52 < foucist> i suspect that if universities were better at teaching 'the science of science' things would be greatly improved
20:52 < teklord> Define "impurity", then define bad methodology in the contect you meant (ie; cite examples), and prove the biases you claim exist, and then define them to me.
20:52 < nsh> teklord, when's this due?
20:52 < nsh> :P
20:52 < strangewarp> burden of proof is on you, for claiming that the scientific method is always perfect, despite imperfect actors and environments
20:52 < teklord> nsh: if you know what you are talkinmg about then it should take a mere moment.
20:53 < teklord> if you cannot describe science in laymens terms, then you do not undersatand that science
20:53 < teklord> Period
20:53 < foucist> teklord: define a hard cock up your ass.. it should take a mere moment
20:53 < nsh> teklord, i was quipping that your response there sounded like a homework project rather than a point of arguments :)
20:53 < nsh> timing and delivery are difficult on irc..
20:53 < nsh> i'll go back to my corner
20:54 < teklord> That's what she said
20:55 < teklord> I wonder if Donisaurs had laser beam shooting helmets.  I bet they didm, because I thought of it.  prove that didnt have exponential growth in techology that gave Jesus's dinosaur a laser beam helmet
20:55 < teklord> Therefore: Singularity
20:55 < teklord> See what I did there? ^
20:56 < teklord> I wish Bill Nye was cooler with the younglings.
20:57 < teklord> Hey, what do you kids think of that new web series H+?
20:57 < teklord> There have been six episdoes aired on YouTube.
20:58 < teklord> If yo uhave not seen the episodes, go watch them and then come back and rant, or link me to your blog where you ranted.,
20:58 -!- Jaakko96 [~Jaakko@94-194-89-130.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de]
20:59 < foucist> teklord: you seem to be convinced you're awesome at logic/rationality and that you're awesome at spotting when people are being illogical or something..  well it's easy to point at anyone and say they're being illogical. .cuz they're humans, it's obvious..  but you still have to back up your claims somewhat by citing examples and so on
21:00 < teklord> foucist: I do not make those fallcious claims you attribute to me, I just call bullshit when I see it.  *It is up to the people who are making positive claims, that is to say; the people I call bullshit upon, to cite their sources or look like blithering foolsw in my eyes.  If you cannot provide evidences for your citations, why should I belioeve you?  You remind me of the Jesus army.
21:01 < foucist> i call bullshit when i see it, but i don't make the mistake of pretending to be superlogical and that they're violating logic and so on
21:01  * brownies raises eyebrow
21:01 < foucist> sup brownies
21:01 < teklord> Again, you're attributing claims to me that I have never made.
21:01 < brownies> yo foucist
21:02 < foucist> brownies: hows the edumacating going
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21:02 < brownies> it's going.
21:07 < teklord> L. Ron Hubbard -- discuss.
21:08 < nmz787> stole his name from Elroy Jetson
21:08 < teklord> Jane was a hottie.
21:09 < teklord> Did you just insinuate that Elroy Jetson's name is infkluenced by L. Ron?
21:09 < teklord> \:(
21:10 < nmz787> no the other way around
21:10 < nmz787> L. Ron changed his name because of Elroy's popularity
21:10 < nmz787> :P
21:10  * teklord high fives over 9000 times broski
21:10 < nmz787> but I guess it could be either way
21:11 < teklord> Scientology is science fiction turned into fictional science.
21:11 < teklord> Be wary of snake oils salesmen.
21:11 < teklord> s/oils/oil
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21:21 < teklord> c
21:25 <@kanzure> teklord: gnusha keeps track of the repositories here: http://diyhpl.us/cgit
21:25 <@kanzure> so laser_etcher.git is http://diyhpl.us/laser_etcher/laser_etcher
21:25 <@kanzure> teklord: i don't know what part of "official ray kurzweil hater club" you don't understand
21:29 < teklord> That's a sexy little repo you folks have. Well done.
21:29 <@kanzure> teklord: we also do http://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer#readme
21:31 < teklord> Impressive, to say that least.  Are you the main dev for nenoengineer?
21:32 <@kanzure> presently yes
21:32 <@kanzure> ray doesn't got shit on this
21:32 < teklord> Best of luck with optimizing that.  Looks fantastic.
21:32 <@kanzure> all he has is some crummy OCR and a chatbot
21:34 < teklord> Those animations make me feel all warm a fnuzzy on the inside.
21:34 < teklord> fuzzy*
21:35 < jrayhawk> 17:35 < jrayhawk> teklord: http://www.google.com/search?q=apple+future+shock&tbm=vid
21:35 < jrayhawk> 17:38 < jrayhawk> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EC5sbdvnvQM which manages to be adorably anachronistic and remarkably precient
21:35 < jrayhawk> 17:39 < jrayhawk> http://www.google.com/search?q=a+day+made+of+glass&tbm=vid is some modern futurism
21:35 < teklord> Put in my todo, I've been drinking.  I'll hit these links first thing tomorrow when I have a break.
21:36 < teklord> Thanks, jrayhawk
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21:40 < nmz787> I wish there was a startupThailand program ala startupChile
21:40 < nmz787> a friend told me chile is kindof dumpy, esp Santiago
21:40 < teklord> Chili seems nice compared to some other south american nations, but Urugyay is the south american paradise.
21:41 <@kanzure> nmz787: there is.. foucist was doing the thailand version
21:41 <@kanzure> foucist: ^
21:41 -!- roksprok [~Zac@50-0-91-31.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: roksprok]
21:42 < brownies> he was?
21:42 < brownies> i thought he just went to thailand and started writing code
21:42 < brownies> if you want to call that StartupThailand... i guess that's ok.
21:42 <@kanzure> no he participated in some stupid accelerator competition thing
21:43 < nmz787> I want an investor or some capital $
21:43 < brownies> oh did he?
21:43 <@kanzure> an investor for what?
21:43 < nmz787> or some lab space or something
21:43 < brownies> he just wants free stuff
21:43 < nmz787> the DNA synthesizer
21:43 < teklord> Lab space == bedroom/livingroom/basement + free *ware
21:44 < nmz787> lol
21:44 < brownies> heh
21:45 < teklord> You laugh now, but when I make a hover board in my kitchen you wont be laughing.  Oh no, you wont be laughing.
21:46 < brownies> a genetically engineered hoverboard?
21:47 < teklord> I *wish* I was a cartoon character from 1989, but alas, I'm just a man.
21:50 < teklord> NASA just released a great video on the radiation storm belt, via youtube, from the Kennedy space center folks.  Worth your time if you are into NASA's work... (who isn't?)
21:50 < teklord> NASAtelevision channel.
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21:59 < teklord> op
21:59 < teklord> oops, sorry
21:59 < teklord> typed "htop" and my shirt hit my touchpad
21:59 < teklord> moved my mouse
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22:01 <@kanzure> roksprok: hi
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22:15 <@kanzure> nmz787: http://www.foundersfund.com/termsheet/
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22:22 < delinquentme> whats the process that a metal undergoes when it becomes magnetized
22:22 < delinquentme> or something like
22:23 < delinquentme> only particular metals can be magnetized ... only metals of this class
22:23 < yashgaroth> magnetization
22:23 < yashgaroth> ferromagnetic
22:24 -!- nmz787 [~Nathan@ool-457e5cbd.dyn.optonline.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
22:27 < delinquentme> yeahhh
22:27 < delinquentme> ferromagnetic
22:27 < delinquentme> http://imjournal.com/pdfarticles/IMCJ10_3_p16_24chevalier.pdf
22:27 < delinquentme> ^ solid research
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22:42 < nmz787> kanzure: that term sheet calculator says exit value of 10 million without me doing a thing to it
22:43 < teklord> Perfect code is perfect.
22:44 <@kanzure> you're off to a great start then
22:46 < nmz787> :/
22:47 < teklord> pebkac?
22:51 <@kanzure> plover for mac http://dl.dropbox.com/u/13336609/Plover.dmg
22:51 < teklord> I like freedom.
22:53 <@kanzure> teklord: http://stenoknight.com/plover/ploverdemo/ploverdemo.html
22:53 <@kanzure> teklord: cause typing is too damn slow http://www.seanwrona.com/typeracer/profile.php?username=kanzure
22:58 < nmz787> what is plover?
23:00 <@kanzure> nmz787: just some software claiming to make you go vrooom http://plover.stenoknight.com/
23:01 < nmz787> stenography is hiding messages in other forms, right?
23:01 <@kanzure> that's steganography
23:02 < brownies> nmz787: you have to fill it out -_-
23:02 < foucist> kanzure: are you using it yet?
23:03 < foucist> did you modify your keyboard?
23:03 <@kanzure> no i'm pretty terrible at it
23:03 <@kanzure> i am hoping there's some way i can 'intuit' which letters to press to get what i want, but i haven't figured it out yet
23:04 < foucist> probably not for something designed back in 1907
23:05 < foucist> would be nice to see a new version of the steno keyboard, with a better design etc..  though, the current one seems pretty efficient anyways
23:05 <@kanzure> huh? i think plover was written more recently than 1908
23:05 <@kanzure> *1907
23:05 < foucist> talking about the steno keybaord
23:06 <@kanzure> i think plover's keymap is unique
23:06 <@kanzure> right?
23:07 < teklord> Offputting.
23:07 < foucist> kanzure: no, it's just the steno keyboard invented back in 1907 or whatever
23:07 <@kanzure> that's lame
23:07 < teklord> It's very old.
23:08 < foucist> kanzure: well i emailed her about it about improving the keymap but she did pretty well explaining why it is the way it is
23:08 <@kanzure> what was her explanation?
23:09 < foucist> meh, what's your email?
23:09 < foucist> i'll just forward it all
23:09 <@kanzure> ksdfjaldfjksdfklasdka@mailinator.com
23:09 < foucist> lol
23:09 < foucist> no thanks
23:10 -!- Mokbortolan_ [~Nate@c-76-115-136-13.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
23:10 <@kanzure> then we can view on http://ksdfjaldfjksdfklasdka.mailinator.com as a group
23:10 < foucist> heh
23:10 -!- Mokbortolan_1 [~Nate@c-76-115-136-13.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
23:10 < foucist> sent
23:10 < foucist> oh fuck
23:11 < foucist> lame
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23:11 < foucist> http://www.mailinator.com/displayemail1.jsp?email=ksdfjaldfjksdfklasdka&msgid=122015906
23:12 <@kanzure> my laptop seems to pass their "n-key rollover" test
23:12 <@kanzure> but it's not a particular special keyboard
23:13 < foucist> kanzure: does it work while holding both caps lock and shift at the same time while typing?
23:14 <@kanzure> yes?
23:14 <@kanzure> but why would i do that? that makes it sorta awkward to type
23:14 < foucist> i mean for the nkro test
23:15 <@kanzure> ok. but yes it works.
23:16 < foucist> its not the macbook pro laptop though right?
23:23 <@kanzure> no i am using a toshiba satellite a665-s6070 keyboard
23:23 <@kanzure> but i could test on a mbp if you'd like?
23:24 -!- teklord [~ubuntu@unaffiliated/solomonkane] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7]
23:25 <@kanzure> oh neat there's a socat_buildscript_for_android.sh
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--- Log closed Tue Aug 21 00:00:00 2012