--- Log opened Fri Jan 04 00:00:20 2013
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06:29 < delinquentme> kanzure, you around?
06:29 < delinquentme> fenn, you?
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06:40 < delinquentme> PM me your guys email =]
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07:24 < chris_99> anyone a css guru who can explain why the 2nd hr is not below the image in my page http://openhydrometer.com/about
07:29  * juri_ looks.
07:32 < juri_> to get 'what you appear to want', set display: block on the second div, and remove the 'float: left' from the image.
07:34 < juri_> hmm.
07:34 < juri_> actually..
07:34  * juri_ plays with it a bit.
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07:36 < chris_99> cheers, i just tried what you said, but the text went below the image
07:36 < chris_99> i still want the text to the right of the image as it where
07:37 < juri_> right, working on it...
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07:45 < juri_> ok, i got the hydrometer below the image:
07:45 < juri_> with the paragraph to the right.
07:46 < juri_> i floated all three left (the <img>, the <p>, and the <div class="footer">)
07:46 < chris_99> cool, do you mind pastebinning the html?
07:49 < juri_> http://pastebin.com/Y8eU70E2
07:49 < juri_> spacing ended up strange.
07:57 < archels> try the CSS clear property.
08:02 < chris_99> i tried that but i couldn't get it to fix it, archels
08:02 < chris_99> juri_, i think i've done your changes but the hr is still next to the text for me
08:02 < chris_99> even though copyright is below the image
08:04 < juri_> oh.
08:04 < juri_> that's not what you're looking for? ;)
08:04 < juri_> that's an easy fix. 1 sec.
08:04 < chris_99> well it's almost exactly right, except i want the hr at the bottom
08:05 < juri_> oh!
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08:06 < juri_> set its style="width: 100%"
08:07 < juri_> after that, you can pull all of the 'style=" on the footer div, as well.
08:10 < chris_99> hmm, the footer text has moved up and the hr is next to the Normally.... text
08:11 < juri_> not here.
08:12 < juri_> heck, here, it looks 'right' to me. the <hr> is below the image, with the footer below that.
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08:12 < juri_> works in my browser. my work is done.
08:13 < juri_> </smartass> ;)
08:13 < juri_> works in midori, and chromium.
08:14 < chris_99> hmm interesting tah
08:23 < heath> happy one year till death kanzure
08:23 < heath> one less year*
08:25 < heath> next year "i'll use the happy one less year until suspended animation" for you
08:25 < heath> derp
08:25 < heath> i can't type today
08:25  * heath walks away 
08:33 < chris_99> got it to work juri_ :) added clear:both to the bottom hr
08:33 < juri_> nice.
08:34 < juri_> still looks the same here.
08:34 < juri_> (which is good. ;)
08:34 < chris_99> yup :)
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11:16 <@fenn> " know someone who does biotech work, and might
11:16 <@fenn> be willing to ask for a research grant to research making a bacterial
11:16 <@fenn> culture that will concentrate soil based lead residuum?"
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11:20 <@fenn> i'm not really sure how that would work.. slime mold that starts out evenly coating the soil and actually physically moves along with the lead it has ingested?
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11:36 < juri_> if you want to move something out of (delicious) soil, maybe a mushroom?
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13:14 <@kanzure> hmm
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13:40 < chido> bzz
13:42 < eudoxia> yo
13:42 <@fenn> you're supposed to say three consonants like "qxx" or something
13:42 < eudoxia> :(
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13:44 < archels> oh man, a robot vacuum cleaner for €100
13:46 <@fenn> does it have lasers?
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13:46 < eudoxia> yes but not of the visible kind
13:47 < nmz787> hi chido
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14:15 <@kanzure> is there a specific organization or person spearheading the "tax patents just like you tax other property" concept?
14:15 <@kanzure> i have seen it floating around but i don't think anyone has taken up the task of championing that idea
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14:25 <@fenn> the only groups arguing for patent reform are the pirate party and the EFF
14:25 <@kanzure> really? that's all?
14:26 <@fenn> maybe there's something in the comments here? http://news.slashdot.org/story/08/02/27/0018224/if-ip-is-property-where-is-the-property-tax
14:27 <@kanzure> not all assets are taxed
14:27 <@kanzure> i'm not sure what goal or problem it would solve either
14:28 <@fenn> it would make patent trolling economically unfeasible, and tend to force reasonable prices for licensing IP of all sorts
14:28 <@kanzure> if the tax was based on revenue, non-practicing entities and patent trolls wouldn't really be paying any tax anyway. how is that unfeasible?
14:29 <@fenn> also prevents indefinite hoarding of copyrights, like abandonware video games or magazines or what have you
14:29 <@kanzure> another patent reform idea i came across recently was a much simpler one, but just as impossible to get passed
14:29 <@kanzure> the concept was to make licensing explicitly documented in public
14:29 < delinquentme> kanzure, do you have a grand list of specific examples of existing markets which could be overturned by open source robotics?
14:29 <@fenn> property tax isn't based on revenue, or it would be income tax
14:29 < delinquentme> I was just thinking of some .. and if you dont have one I'm gonna start a list
14:30 <@kanzure> i'm still sad that dewey decimal is under copyright and oclc sues over it
14:30 <@fenn> really? that's bizarre
14:30 <@kanzure> check the logs from yesterday
14:30 <@kanzure> delinquentme: what do you mean by overturned/
14:31 < delinquentme> well like your mileage may vary
14:31 < delinquentme> but what about shit like duct cleaning
14:31 <@fenn> we had to learn that crap in school.. for some reasom memorizing arbitrary copyrighted classification schemes counts as education?
14:31 < delinquentme> or I was just discussing : open source sybian
14:31 <@kanzure> delinquentme: what do you mean by overturned?
14:31 < delinquentme> how to get girls involved in robotics?
14:31 < delinquentme> problem solved
14:31 <@kanzure> do you mean "would buy lots of robotics equipment"?
14:31 < delinquentme> well the easy answer is " every industry "
14:31 <@kanzure> huh?
14:32 <@kanzure> i am still trying to figure out your question dude.
14:32 <@kanzure> fenn: pretty sick isn't it.
14:32 < delinquentme> its just a granular list of things which would benefit from automation
14:32 <@kanzure> just any benefit whatsoever?
14:33 < delinquentme> correct
14:33 < delinquentme> "everything" ... I mean you could classify it
14:33 < jrayhawk> I liked the idea of exponentially increasing taxes on patents and copyright.
14:34 <@kanzure> the current system is broken on so many levels and a lot of incentives are out of whack
14:35 <@kanzure> but i haven't seen any modern proposals for how to organize human innovation on that scale
14:35 <@kanzure> dewey decimal is under copyright and passes as liberal knowledge
14:36 <@kanzure> libraries are dying and make no sense (why can't i just download books)
14:36 <@fenn> i see that oclc thing happened in 2008; what came of it and what of openlibrary?
14:36 <@kanzure> charities have perverse incentivies to take out patents and provide net negative value
14:36 < jrayhawk> well, IP development without IP law would fall into the realm of 'public good', which is traditionally handled bylarge centralized bodies of economy
14:36 < jrayhawk> such as universities or foundations or government
14:36 <@kanzure> fenn: i emailed aaronsw yesterday asking about openlibrary but so far i haven't seen a reply
14:37 <@kanzure> i should probably just call him.
14:37 <@kanzure> and on top of all of that crap, storing technology design or knowledge in legalese is stupid in the first place
14:37 <@fenn> well openlibrary.org seems to be running and have content
14:37 < jrayhawk> aaronsw has the only threaded conversation twitter client i could find
14:37 <@fenn> yeah patents are not the ideal format for reproducing a process or device
14:38 < jrayhawk> what is wrong with the twitter ecosystem such that that's the case
14:38 <@kanzure> they don't believe in threads
14:38 < jrayhawk> i am noticing a lot of dead projects that claim to have at one point offered such a feature
14:38 <@fenn> it's a conspiracy
14:38 <@kanzure> twitter recently made a lot of developers angry by limiting them to 10k requests/day or something
14:39 <@kanzure> so the ecosystem was basically crushed
14:39 < jrayhawk> yeah i was kinda wondering if twitter disables API keys of people who make compelling clients or something
14:39 < jrayhawk> huh
14:39 <@kanzure> yes, but only recently
14:39 <@kanzure> it used to be all the rage to make your own twitter client thing and get a million users signed on to it
14:39 <@kanzure> tweetdeck was hugely popular
14:39 <@kanzure> i regret knowing these things
14:40 <@kanzure> fenn: openlibrary has only 20M records
14:40 <@kanzure> oclc has 1.9B records
14:40 <@fenn> eh? but are they real?
14:40 <@fenn> i thought the article said 100M
14:41 <@kanzure> http://www.oclc.org/worldcat/grow/
14:41 <@kanzure> "Total number of holdings:
14:41 <@kanzure> 1,934,622,223"
14:41 <@fenn> i think that means physical copies of books
14:41 <@kanzure> yes
14:42 <@kanzure> oclc is so bizarre. libraries are paying $0.30/query for interlibrary loan.
14:42 <@fenn> jeesh
14:43 <@fenn> librarians tend to be fiercely idealistic on one hand, but totally ignorant of what's possible (or could be possible, with a little effort)
14:43 <@kanzure> they were all suckered into joining oclc to help each other.
14:43 <@kanzure> and now they have contracts and lock-in and non-disclosure agreements out the wazoo.
14:44 <@kanzure> i don't think libraries are very useful anyway.
14:44 <@kanzure> if your argument is that they are useful for drop shipping books, that's a lie because amazon is far far better at that.
14:45 <@kanzure> someone should figure out how to get cities/schools to move away from funding physical libraries to hosting bits
14:46 <@fenn> i think oshw(?) or some other hackerspace group was trying to do that, directly cooperating with libraries to make them relevant
14:47 <@fenn> http://blog.makezine.com/2011/03/10/is-it-time-to-rebuild-retool-public-libraries-and-make-techshops/
14:47 <@kanzure> what would be relevant is what they can't provide- digital copies of books, articles, etc.
14:48 <@kanzure> also yeah, it would be more useful to have hackerspaces as a public institution than lots of dead trees laying around.
14:50 <@fenn> it would be great if librarians did their fucking job and curated all these ebooks into a sensible database
14:50 <@kanzure> they can't because of liability/laws/legal things.
14:50 <@fenn> the world of "electronic publishing" is embarrasingly fragmented and hard to use, even ignoring the fact that you can't access the full text
14:51 <@fenn> it's only because google is so good at indexing that we don't notice it (as much)
14:51 <@fenn> why isn't there a database of every scientific journal article ever published?
14:52 <@kanzure> there is- i think isi keeps one. but the index is copyright-ridden.
14:52 <@fenn> does isi actually link to the full text? it's been a while since i used it
14:53 <@kanzure> no clue. probably not.
14:53 <@kanzure> there's also separate databases like 'chemical abstract service' (CAS).
14:54 <@fenn> wow webofknowledge.com doesn't even attempt to present itself to non-institutional users
14:54 <@kanzure> "NOTICE: Your IP address has not been recognized for access to the Web of Knowledge product environment."
14:54 <@kanzure> awesome
14:54 <@fenn> hey at least they give pseudo technical information
14:54 <@kanzure> http://webofknowledge.proxy.lib.pdx.edu/
14:54 <@kanzure> erm i mean
14:54 <@kanzure> http://webofknowledge.com.proxy.lib.pdx.edu/
14:55 <@fenn> uh, am i supposed to have a login for odin?
14:55 <@kanzure> yes
14:55 <@kanzure> also gnusha has access
14:56 <@fenn> bah. anyway
14:56 <@fenn> webofknowledge doesn't index books does it?
14:57 <@kanzure> http://thomsonreuters.com/products_services/science/science_products/a-z/isi_web_of_knowledge/
14:57 <@kanzure> "book" doesn't even appear on the page
14:57 <@fenn> "Over 40 million source items" whatever that means
14:59 <@fenn> anyway ISI/WoK was really just for determining impact factor, and searchability of the actual data was a side effect
14:59 <@fenn> so many perverse incentives
14:59 <@fenn> it would be great if we could actually measure what was important
15:01 <@kanzure> for all of the "humanitarian" charities out there, none of them just dump books online.
15:01 <@kanzure> bill & melinda gates could just front the money to keep up an indefinite legal battle basically
15:02 <@kanzure> while happily hosting a few hundred million books
15:02 <@fenn> a charity organization's first priority is to preserve its own existence
15:03 <@fenn> legal battles get expensive real quick
15:03 <@fenn> also once you have a few billion dollars the idea of books being expensive just doesn't register
15:04 <@fenn> hm, actually that doesn't make sense
15:04 <@fenn> but it is disturbing that they won't just make new content and publish it under a permissive license
15:05 <@kanzure> yeah that would be a nice thing for charities to do
15:05 <@fenn> there was some CD distributed by the UN with all kinds of info on it, but it had onerous copyright imposed by ... the guy who put it on a CD
15:05 <@kanzure> "okay guys, we have 100 million books that we can't touch, so let's just pay some authors to write the same crap again."
15:06 <@kanzure> or why not just buy the copyrights outright
15:06 <@kanzure> the publishing industry isn't more than a few billion dollars, you know
15:06 <@fenn> you can't buy copyrights if you dont know who owns it
15:06 <@kanzure> probably the market leaders
15:07 <@fenn> automatic copyright was just the worst idea
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15:25 < delinquentme> Ok so I need to scrape reddit for some info ... right now it looks like they're forbidding my scraper
15:29 < nmz787> i think the libraries around here stopped chargin late fees, but after 60 days of being overdue they charge you for the replacement cost of the item
15:30 < nmz787> and I'd argue that physical libraries are necessary because not everyone has a computer with internet
15:31 < nmz787> my first few years of internet experience were at the library on their machines
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16:35 < nmz787> fenn: jrayhawk what do you think of this for a DIY security camera system http://www.bitartist.org/2012/02/motion-tracking-on-wireless-router.html
16:35 < nmz787> $30 per wifi camera
16:35 < nmz787> well maybe 40
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16:38 < nmz787> Is there a better way to do this? Maybe add a small hub and a USB microSD card reader so you can have space for more programs/libraries?
16:38 < nmz787> Is H.264 out of the question on this type of system? Any way to get better resolution or framerate? Maybe recent frames could be buffered with high FPS to a local SD card, then slowly sent out to the file server....
16:39 < juri_> I've just alwas used old PCs + USB cameras.
16:39 < juri_> zoneminder to an iscsi backend.
16:43 < jrayhawk> That sort of hardware won't be able to deal with big resolutions or high framerates or good compression, and 802.11 wouldn't be able to deal well with multiple high-resolution high-framerate streams.
16:43 < jrayhawk> USB get unpleasant to deal with past a certain length.
16:46 < juri_> Agreed.
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16:47 < jrayhawk> But yeah, if your bitrate and distance requirements work out, just attaching USB cameras to a computer is a nice easy route.
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16:49 < jrayhawk> http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/1839 and either local SD record loop or ethernet network would get you high speed high resolution.
16:49 < jrayhawk> I'm sure there are similar and cheaper embedded devices at retail.
16:54 < abetusk> anyone familiar with gerber?
16:55 < juri_> not very familiar, why?
16:56 < abetusk> I have a tool that converts gerber to gcode and I'm finding all the different planes are, the front, the back and the drill file, are being put into different quadrents.  I wanted to know if that's a gerber thing or if it's the tool I'm using screwing things up
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16:58 < juri_> doesn't ring a bell to me.
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17:08 < nmz787> well the raspi would add $15 per camera
17:08 < nmz787> but yeah it is a helluva lot more computer
17:09 < nmz787> i wouldn't be transmitting video all the time, only when motion was detected
17:09 < nmz787> the H.264 encode on the raspi is nice though
17:10 < nmz787> ahh but raspi doesn't come with wifi
17:10 < nmz787> so it would add more than $15
17:10 < nmz787> it would be like 25 or 30 extra
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17:13 < nmz787> http://memoto.com/#tech_section
17:13 < nmz787> not long til we see video life loggers
17:13 < nmz787> :D
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17:16 < nmz787> huh, well that router is at least 40MHz http://wiki.openwrt.org/_media/toh/tp-link/atheros.ar7240.pdf
17:16 < nmz787> 400*
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17:34 < nmz787> jrayhawk: do you know if its easy to compile something on openwrt?
17:34 < nmz787> or cross-compile for it
17:34 < juri_> you don't compile on openwrt, you compile into it.
17:34 < juri_> they give you a very nice kit for doing that.
17:35 < juri_> as part of the build process of openwrt, you end up compiling a complete useful cross compile environment.
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17:39 < nmz787> juri_: so what about the opkg program?
17:39 < nmz787> that seems to install packages
17:39 < nmz787> is openwrt processor dependent, or is it crossplatform?
17:43 < juri_> its processor dependant.
17:43 < juri_> on various processors. ;)
17:44 < juri_> opkg installs packages.. which you would have to build, using the (supplied) cross compiler.
17:45 < juri_> the package format is simple enough we have a shell script here that manages them.
17:45 < juri_> (for when the C one runs out of ram?)
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18:42 <@kanzure> never compile on openwrt
18:42 <@kanzure> always cross-compile.
18:42 <@kanzure> delinquentme: use the reddit api. also, stop using reddit.
18:43 <@kanzure> nmz787: i think a library that provides a computer terminal should be called what it is .. a place that provides computer access -_-.
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18:51 <@kanzure> "Kanzaki (神埼市 Kanzaki-shi?) is a city located in Saga Prefecture, Japan. The city was created on March 20, 2006 by the merger of the towns of Kanzaki (old) and Chiyoda, and the village of Sefuri, all from Kanzaki District."
18:51 <@kanzure> hmm
18:57 < nmz787> ?
18:58 < nmz787> Chernobyl opened in 2002 for tourism
19:06 <@kanzure> nah someone was in another channel named <kanzaki> so i was curious about the word
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20:06 < nmz787> fenn: do you know anything negative re: stevia?
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20:29 <@fenn> nmz787: aside from being an artificial sweetener, no. you should be aware that merely the taste of sweet will result in insulin release, which can cause a drop in blood sugar when you aren't actually ingesting sugar at the same time
20:33 <@fenn> don't get me wrong, it's better than sugar
20:34 <@fenn> much of the "carcinogen" status of cyclamate and saccharin was due to sugar industry funded research
20:34 < yashgaroth> 'big sweet'
20:35 <@kanzure> yashgaroth: is article access working for you now?
20:35 < yashgaroth> haven't tried yet, gimme a minute and I'll set it up
20:35 <@kanzure> eudoxia: are you really on dialup?
20:36 <@kanzure> adsl.. hrm.
20:48 < yashgaroth> well it seems to work, but don't they have a plugin or something I can install for 1-click?
20:51 <@kanzure> to get access just type http://nature.com.proxy.lib.pdx.edu/
20:52 <@kanzure> here's a bookmarklet for you:
20:52 <@kanzure> javascript:void(location.href=%22http://proxy.lib.pdx.edu/login?url=%22+location.href);
20:54 < yashgaroth> perfect, thanks
21:04 <@kanzure> just remember to hoard things that are relevant
21:08 < yashgaroth> I will build a nest of pdfs
21:20 <@kanzure> no, build a fortress
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21:40 < Viper168> actually, not all artificial sweeteners release insulin
21:40 < Viper168> such a sucralose for example
21:41 < Viper168> which frankly is my favorite of them all, tastes like sugar without an aftertaste and has no negative effects to speak of
21:41 < Viper168> I'm adding some to my tea right now
21:41 < Viper168> it sure as hell beats how I felt when I was using real sugar
21:43 < Viper168> the only thing that could make it better is adding a little xylitol for its bacteria starving properties to make it actually good for your teeth instead of just harmless
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22:16 <@kanzure> saurik: is there an android thing like cykret/apt-get-for-iphone? for instance, it would be nice if there was a thing that can find arm builds of git and things.
22:18 <@kanzure> *cyrket
22:33 < JayDugger> That would be nice.
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--- Log closed Sat Jan 05 00:00:21 2013