--- Log opened Tue May 21 00:00:29 2013
--- Day changed Tue May 21 2013
00:00 < kirka> Ah. I do electronics and simple robotics at home, and I became interested in biological experiments.
00:01 -!- Adifex_ [~Adifex@97-122-125-109.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
00:01 < yashgaroth> well there isn't much to do, despite the many news articles about it
00:02 < kirka> I don't have a large ambition, I think that transformations already cool.
00:03 -!- Adifex [~Adifex@97-122-125-109.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
00:03 -!- Adifex_ is now known as Adifex
00:04 < yashgaroth> well that kit should suit you fine then
00:08 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@cpe-66-27-118-94.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: sleep]
00:11 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap
00:16 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
00:16 -!- paperbot [~paperbot@131.252.130.248] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
00:26 -!- Adifex [~Adifex@97-122-125-109.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Adifex]
00:26 -!- superkuh [~superkuh@unaffiliated/superkuh] has joined ##hplusroadmap
00:47 -!- kirka [~Kirka@109.205.253.139] has left ##hplusroadmap []
01:50 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
01:51 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
01:56 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
01:57 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
02:04 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
02:05 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
02:08 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@node238.19.251.72.1dial.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
02:08 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@node238.19.251.72.1dial.com] has quit [Changing host]
02:08 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap
02:09 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
02:10 -!- Viper168 is now known as Viper168_
02:12 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap
02:14 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
02:15 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
02:15 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
02:23 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
02:24 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
02:32 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
02:34 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
02:35 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@185.5.8.81] has joined ##hplusroadmap
02:35 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@185.5.8.81] has quit [Changing host]
02:35 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap
02:42 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
02:43 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
02:50 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
02:51 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
02:59 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
03:00 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
03:09 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
03:10 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
03:10 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap
03:17 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
03:19 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
03:25 -!- kmo is now known as kajetan
03:26 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
03:28 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
03:36 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
03:37 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
03:45 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
03:47 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
03:49 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
03:49 < archels> ScienceDirect appears borked, it keeps giving me 'Request Entity too Large'
03:49 < archels> ...and no paperbot :(
03:55 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
03:56 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
04:04 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
04:06 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
04:14 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
04:15 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
04:23 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
04:25 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
04:29 -!- makoLime [~mako@103-9-42-128.flip.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
04:33 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
04:34 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
04:42 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
04:44 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
04:50 -!- kanzure [~kanzure@131.252.130.248] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
04:50 -!- kanzure [~kanzure@131.252.130.248] has joined ##hplusroadmap
04:52 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
04:53 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
05:01 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
05:03 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
05:10 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
05:12 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
05:17 -!- EnLilaSko [EnLilaSko@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has joined ##hplusroadmap
05:20 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
05:21 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
05:29 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
05:31 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
05:39 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
05:41 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
05:42 < heath> archels: have tried reddit.com/r/scholar?
05:42 < heath> +you
05:44 -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has joined ##hplusroadmap
05:47 < heath> 404: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/books/Molecular%20Biology%20of%20the%20Gene%20-%202006.pdf
05:47 < heath> linked from http://diyhpl.us/wiki/diybio/faq/books/
05:48 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
05:50 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
05:55 < archels> .t http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2013/05/01/1216197110
05:55 < yoleaux> archels: Sorry, I don't know a timezone by that name.
05:55 < archels> .title
05:55 < yoleaux> Parkin overexpression during aging reduces proteotoxicity, alters mitochondrial dynamics, and extends lifespan
05:56 < archels> heath: thanks, mostly I just wanted to check whether the failure of ScienceDirect was on my side or theirs.
05:58 -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.]
05:58 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
05:58 -!- strangewarp [~C@c-67-176-51-26.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
05:58 -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has joined ##hplusroadmap
05:58 -!- strangewarp [~C@c-67-176-51-26.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
06:00 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
06:02 < heath> www.google.com/patents/US20120283140
06:02 < heath> "Microfluidic Devices and Methods for Gene Synthesis"
06:08 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
06:09 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
06:16 -!- FooQuuxman [~test@c-98-215-254-55.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
06:18 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
06:18 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
06:26 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
06:27 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
06:30 < archels> Lecture series - Extreme Makeover. Body Transformations, culture and the ideal self
06:30 < archels> potentially interesting
06:35 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
06:36 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
06:44 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
06:45 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
06:53 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 261 seconds]
06:54 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
07:02 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
07:03 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
07:11 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
07:15 -!- kajetan [122@unaffiliated/kmo] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
07:17 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
07:18 -!- randalla1ordon [~randall@71-222-91-229.ptld.qwest.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
07:21 -!- randallagordon [~randall@67-5-171-221.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
07:23 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
07:24 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
07:27 -!- wizrobe [~userdi@c-76-23-254-105.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
07:27 -!- wizrobe is now known as esclepius
07:31 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
07:33 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
07:41 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
07:42 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
07:51 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
07:52 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
07:59 -!- OldCoder_ [~OldCoder_@adsl-64-169-36-85.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
08:00 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
08:01 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
08:07 -!- FooQuuxman [~test@c-98-215-254-55.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
08:09 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
08:10 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
08:17 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@cpe-66-27-118-94.san.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
08:18 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
08:19 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
08:27 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
08:29 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
08:31 -!- augur [~augur@208.58.5.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
08:35 -!- kmo [~kmo@apn-37-247-231-29.dynamic.lte.plus.pl] has joined ##hplusroadmap
08:35 -!- kmo [~kmo@apn-37-247-231-29.dynamic.lte.plus.pl] has quit [Changing host]
08:35 -!- kmo [~kmo@unaffiliated/kmo] has joined ##hplusroadmap
08:37 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
08:39 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
08:46 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@185.5.8.81] has joined ##hplusroadmap
08:46 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@185.5.8.81] has quit [Changing host]
08:46 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap
08:47 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
08:48 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
08:56 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
08:57 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:02 -!- klafka [~klafka@c-24-6-18-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
09:06 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
09:07 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:14 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@cpe-66-27-118-94.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
09:15 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
09:16 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:17 -!- kirka [~Kirka@109.205.253.139] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:24 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
09:26 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:30 -!- augur [~augur@208.58.5.87] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:34 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
09:36 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:40 < kirka> If someone is interested here is my simple physical model of c.elegans http://anonymousdelivers.us/49074
09:44 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
09:45 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:49 < archels> oh man, you coded a physics engine in Lisp?
09:50 < kanzure> heath: instead of reddit, i recommend http://diyhpl.us/wiki/articles
09:51 < kirka> archels Yes, I have done 3 physics sims (this one: simple point masses, in lisp, second: 2d rigid bodies, C++, third that I'm developing now: 3d rigid bodies with constraints, in lisp)
09:52 < kirka> First-hand experience gives real understanding of classical mechanics.
09:52 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
09:53 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:00 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
10:01 < fenn> the worm simulator looks much cooler animated, anyway here's a screenshot: http://fennetic.net/irc/kirka_c.elegans_simulator.png  you'll need to install lispbuilder-sdl with quicklisp and then load sim.lisp
10:02 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:03 -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
10:04 < kirka> If you make timestep small enough and improve integrator you can model almost rigid objects like robots even in this minimal simulator.
10:04 < kanzure> fenn: i was hoping that was an animated gif.. you are lazy today.
10:04 < fenn> hey i just got it running five minutes ago
10:04 < kanzure> LAZY
10:10 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
10:11 -!- klafka [~klafka@204-16-157-18-static.ipnetworksinc.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:12 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:15 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
10:18 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:20 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
10:21 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:21 < kirka> kanzure If you are interested here is a video http://rghost.net/46101857
10:21 < kirka> Don't know if it'll work in every browser
10:26 -!- yoleaux [~yoleaux@obquire.infologie.co] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
10:27 -!- yoleaux [~yoleaux@213.138.101.38] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:27 -!- nsh [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
10:28 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
10:30 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:35 -!- archels [~neuralnet@sascha.esrac.ele.tue.nl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
10:38 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
10:39 -!- archels [~neuralnet@sascha.esrac.ele.tue.nl] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:40 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:40 -!- yoleaux [~yoleaux@213.138.101.38] has quit [Disconnected by services]
10:41 -!- yoleaux [~yoleaux@213.138.101.38] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:42 < fenn> i converted it to a gif, cropped it, and sped it up: http://fennetic.net/irc/kirka_worm_simulator.gif
10:42 < fenn> it seems to bounce around a lot more in that movie than the current version
10:43 < chris_99> tis 403 forbidden fenn
10:43 < kirka> Bouncing is transitional effect: simulation starts with worm slightly above ground plane
10:43 < fenn> ok try now. i guess mplayer makes files with weird permissions
10:43 < chris_99> ooh that's neat
10:43 < chris_99> yeah it works now
10:45 -!- nsh [~nsh@obquire.infologie.co] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:45 < chris_99> what interpreter are you using for that kirka
10:45 < kirka> You could make sea starts or soft legged animals in this sim: just write subrotines that spawn points and connect them with springs
10:45 < kanzure> huh, i didn't expect you to use mplayer to make a gif. i thought you'd go for convert.
10:46 < kirka> chris_99 Steel Bank Common Lisp. That's a fast compiler. Compared to python common lisp is more expressive and tens of times faster. Ideal language for exploratory programming.
10:46 < chris_99> nice :)
10:47 < fenn> has there been any work done on "compiling to GPU"? for lack of a better phrase
10:47 < fenn> something like theano, to automatically generate optimized CUDA code as necessary
10:47 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
10:47 < kirka> Yes there is work: openworm project is developing PCI-SPH code for openCL
10:48 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-134-78-149.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:48 < kanzure> wasn't there an nvidia cl library that was released a month ago?
10:48 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:49 < eudoxia> paperbot: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=121998
10:49 < eudoxia> i think i broke it
10:50 < kanzure> nope it is just dead
10:50 < kirka> Have you tried s c i - h u b . org?
10:50 -!- paperbot [~paperbot@131.252.130.248] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:50 < kanzure> .title http://scihub.org/
10:50 < yoleaux> Welcome to Science Hub - Leading The Information Highway
10:50 < eudoxia> 10:01 < fenn> the worm simulator looks much cooler animated, anyway here's a screenshot: http://fennetic.net/irc/kirka_c.elegans_simulator.png  you'll need to install lispbuilder-sdl with quicklisp and then load sim.lisp
10:50 < eudoxia> oh my god someone actually used lispbuilder-sdl?
10:51 < kanzure> .title http://sci-hub.org/
10:51 < yoleaux> Sci-Hub - сервис доступа к научной литературе | ScienceDirect, Springer, Wiley, IEEE, JSTOR - скачать | научные журналы и статьи - бесплатно
10:51 < kirka> eudoxia Yes, that's a good library for drawing lines, points and stuff
10:51 < eudoxia> oh kirka's here that explains it
10:51 < kirka> Heh
10:51 < eudoxia> hello bro, long time no see
10:51 < kanzure> it redirects me to http://www.kremlin.ru/
10:51 < kirka> Hi
10:51 < kanzure> paperbot: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=121998
10:51 < kirka> I was reading books and writing programs, and studying at university
10:51 < paperbot> IOError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: '/home/bryan/public_html/papers2/paperbot/The WINTERP Widget INTERPreter&mdash;a Lisp prototyping and extension environment for OSF/motif based applications user-interfaces.pdf' (file "/srv/ikiwiki/paperbot/modules/papers.py", line 116, in download)
10:51 < kanzure> whaaaatt
10:52 < eudoxia> kanzure: it's not a valid pdf download url anyways
10:52 < kanzure> oh there's an &mdash; in the title. and a "/". that's stupid.
10:52 < kanzure> i thought i stripped out invalid characters.
10:52 < kanzure> i am very confused.
10:52 < fenn> gratz you found a zero day :P
10:52 < eudoxia> my first <3
10:53 < kirka> kanzure scihub is a proxy for downloading papers. I depend on it for punching paywalls. It'll be bad if something goes wrong with it.
10:53 < kanzure> do you know who made it?
10:53 < kanzure> http://sci-hub.copiny.com/
10:54 < kirka> Looks like libgen-related guys. I should say large "Thank you!" to them
10:54 < kanzure> do they have backups or is it only a proxy?
10:54 < kanzure> yeah, all of my queries are redirected to kremlin.ru.. do you have a recommended vps provider in russia?
10:54 < kirka> Often paper is first downloaded to cache at libgen
10:54 < eudoxia> http://fennetic.net/irc/kirka_worm_simulator.gif this kind of looks like my nanoengineer experiments
10:54 < kirka> kanzure Don't know any
10:55 < kanzure> you are the worst russian mob boss i've ever met
10:55 < eudoxia> paperbot: http://dl.acm.org/ft_gateway.cfm?id=121998&type=pdf&CFID=218855820&CFTOKEN=62731612
10:55 < paperbot> no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/60c3b860aa4bc71fa274f7afd7ff66b2.pdf
10:56 < eudoxia> thanks paperbot
10:56 < kirka> kanzure heh, but I'm just user of this stuff
10:56 < klafka> do any of you guys use redis?
10:56 < klafka> per chance
10:57 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
10:57 < kanzure> klafka: yes i've used redis
10:58 < kanzure> eudoxia: https://github.com/kanzure/paperbot/issues/12
10:58 < klafka> so i'm developing on a server that is running redis on it and the redis db is like 40gb
10:58 < klafka> and vim keeps crashing whenever redis is on
10:58 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:58 < klafka> here is my suspicion, when it creates an rdb file it's fucking up io
10:58 < klafka> on the computer
10:59 < kanzure> kirka: can you check sci-hub.org and download a paper from JSTOR or RSC or AIP, and then show me the paper? i am curious to see what the watermarks say.
10:59 < kirka> kanzure Ok
10:59 < klafka> i'm changing to append only file to see if that works
10:59 < kanzure> kirka: thanks
10:59 < klafka> but is what i'm saying like crazy or does it make any sense?
10:59 < klafka> i don't really understand systems programming
10:59 < kanzure> klafka: strace vim, then tell me how it crashes
11:00 < klafka> what's strace ?
11:00 < kanzure> klafka: also you can look at "top" to do a quick sanity check of what the different processes are doing
11:00 < kanzure> klafka: and also look at "dmesg | less" (in particular, the bottom of this buffer) to see if your server is doing stupid things
11:00 < klafka> well i mean it is typically happening when redis is writing
11:00 < kanzure> klafka: strace shows you system calls being made by the process (in this case, vim)
11:00 < klafka> aah
11:00 < klafka> it's weird vim just like locks up
11:00 < klafka> it never crashes
11:00 < kanzure> certain system calls are going to be constrained during large writes, i think
11:00 < klafka> i have to kill the screen it is in
11:00 < klafka> i see
11:01 < kirka> btw they have a twitter https://twitter.com/Sci_Hub
11:01 < kanzure> klafka: this is certainly something worth tweaking but i don't have good suggestions for you.
11:01 < kirka> kanzure http://sci-hub.org/pdfcache/aea5ca568acd5fd36948214424c20b54.pdf
11:01 < kanzure> jrayhawk: maybe you have some ideas for klafka's problem?
11:01 < klafka> damn it just froze again
11:02 < klafka> redis does not appear to be running -
11:02 < kanzure> klafka: i dunno how big you can run redis, at some point you might want to consider multiple servers and sharding.
11:02 < klafka> er saving
11:02 < klafka> i mean it should just fit in memory
11:02 < kanzure> kirka: "This content downloaded from 137.99.31.134 on Tue, 21 May 2013 14:00:58 PM"
11:02 < klafka> i think it's really poor architecture if the db cant' be as big as the ram on my computer
11:02 < klafka> and i have 244gb ram
11:02 < kirka> I have worries about watermarking too. I thought about converting papers to djvu, so there cannot be any watermark or DRM.
11:03 < kanzure> kirka: it seems to be uconn.edu
11:03 < kanzure> kirka: if you know the owners of this site, you should tell them to use https://github.com/kanzure/pdfparanoia to remove this information
11:03 < kanzure> fucking amateurs
11:03 < kirka> kanzure Ok. if I'll find them I'll talk to them
11:04 < kirka> That's serious, I'd like for scihub to live on
11:04 < kanzure> kirka: could you try one more? RSC or AIP?
11:04 < eudoxia> kirka even uses the same license I do (MIT)
11:04 < eudoxia> it's almost surreal
11:04 < kanzure> eudoxia: MIT is not exactly an unknown license...
11:04 < eudoxia> oh i know but this is just another intersection in the list of things we have in common
11:05 < kirka> eudoxia We have quite similar views on things, heh
11:05 < eudoxia> maybe one of us is an uploaded copy of the other one O:
11:06 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
11:07 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
11:08 < chris_99> it tells you who the university is actually on that sci-hub thing
11:08 < chris_99> on ieee for example
11:09 < kirka> kanzure http://sci-hub.org/pdfcache/a258a4344b325b29d0ce7f9462e11277.pdf
11:09 < kanzure> "university of minnesota - twin cities"
11:10 < kanzure> http://umn.edu/ and http://uconn.edu/ so far.
11:10 < kirka> kanzure I'm writing them in their feedback form
11:10 < kanzure> so maybe they have multiple exit points that they are trying
11:10 < kirka> Yes
11:10 < kanzure> still, i think that's very sloppy
11:10 < chris_99> i got something other than that
11:10 < kanzure> and will compromise their university accounts
11:10 < kanzure> chris_99: what did you get?
11:10 < chris_99> ball something state i think
11:11 < kanzure> kirka: thanks for checking a second article
11:14 < kirka> kanzure That's it, you can gtranslate it http://sci-hub.copiny.com/problem/details/id/91055
11:15 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
11:16 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
11:19 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Client Quit]
11:19 < DonnchaC> It looks like they pay people to use their university accounts as proxies?
11:19 < DonnchaC> or to get VPN/proxy access to those college networks
11:20 < DonnchaC> I wonder how they stay online. I suppose just host outside of the US/EU?
11:21 < kanzure> well, they are making multiple mistakes at the moment.. i hope if they do pay, they are using bitcoins.
11:21 < kanzure> they aren't stripping watermarks. they are using .ru, which could be problematic if they become blocked..
11:22 < kanzure> right now they seem to be at 46.38.63.192
11:23 < kanzure> which is "TC TEL hosting"
11:25 < kanzure> ok i posted, https://groups.google.com/d/msg/science-liberation-front/7LlsS7BS3Ec/zeA2dqmgh1QJ
11:27 < kirka> kanzure In russia copyright still isn't a large issue, but it's strengthening. This probably explains their insecurity.
11:29 < kanzure> how sad. i want them to survive.
11:29 < kirka> I want it too
11:32 < kanzure> kirka: would you be willing to translate the README here? https://github.com/kanzure/pdfparanoia
11:32 < kirka> kanzure Ok
11:38 -!- FooQuuxman [~test@c-98-215-254-55.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
11:40 < kanzure> east bay diybio needs more people voting on their potential name: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/68LSZK9
11:40 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap
11:41 < kanzure> it is down to "counter culture labs", "east bay biolab", and "metaphase institute"
11:44 < eudoxia> >counter culture labs
11:44 < eudoxia> :/
11:45 -!- ParahSailin [~Rob@50-194-178-148-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
11:46 < kanzure> eudoxia: culture counting. get it?
11:46 -!- ParahSailin [~Rob@50-194-178-148-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
11:47 < eudoxia> oh, cultures as in petri dishes and shit.
11:51 < kanzure> yeah, it could be more obvious i think
11:51 < juri_> i like it.
11:51 < kanzure> and then you can make lots of jokes about countable and uncountable infinities.
11:53 < kirka> kanzure Here is translation http://pastebin.com/A6NdhJ15
11:54 < kirka> kanzure Oh, I forgot to delete first line of english text
11:54 < eudoxia> you might want to translate output.pdf and input.pdf
11:55 < kanzure> is input/output something that russians know in english?
11:55 < kanzure> i have no idea what russians know about english
11:55 < kirka> eudoxia Don't think that's necessary. Actually knowledge of english language is a must for russian sciencists
11:56 < kirka> kanzure It's either you know english or you cannot read new books and scientific papers, so sciencists know it
11:57 < kanzure> ok
11:57 < kanzure> good point
11:57 < eudoxia> i think it's pretty much the same everywhere
12:01 < fenn> japan is going to make passing TOEFL a requirement for university entrance
12:02 < fenn> it seems wrong to me somehow, since some people are just not good at learning foreign languages, for the same mysterious reason they're good at whatever it is they do
12:03 < kanzure> kirka: thank you for the translation, i've committed to the repository with the text.
12:10 < ParahSailin> passing toefl is not hard for japanese or chinese
12:10 < ParahSailin> you barely have to know any english
12:17 < kanzure> i fear that it will be too easy for publishers to identify the sources of the downloads from sci-hub.org, even if watermarks are removed
12:17 < kanzure> because a publisher could just type in a paper, then wait for a university to download the paper in the next few seconds
12:18 < kanzure> sci-hub.org could choose to make requests from 100 different universities at the same time, to obfuscate which one the paper is traveling through
12:18 < fenn> um. that just means they get 100x more info on how compromised their network is
12:18 < kanzure> but, that will just tell them exactly who they have to go yell at..
12:18 < kanzure> yes that's true, i think downloading ahead of time is the only way
12:19 < kanzure> or if you are willing to infuriate your users you could have random delays (minutes, hours, days) before it is downloaded
12:19 < fenn> if you assume there's some kind of download analytics/tracking system in place, wouldnt it be obvious that these particular 452 accounts are downloading at maximum rate?
12:20 < fenn> if there's not any logging/tracking system, they wouldnt know who downloaded the paper in the first place
12:20 < kanzure> publishers absolutely do have http server logs
12:20 < kanzure> i have seen these logs
12:20 < kirka> kanzure Looks like s c i h u b creator is from Kazakhstan, it's relatively copyright-safe country
12:20 < fenn> i dont think the delay idea works because 90% of papers are only read by 5 people, so that's like two downloads a year max
12:20 < kanzure> pfft yeah ok, and i'm from calxistan
12:21 < fenn> hey metoo
12:21 < kanzure> fenn: well, downloading immediately is probably the worst idea out of all of them
12:21 -!- ivan` [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
12:21 < kanzure> maybe you should use only one exit node per publisher
12:21 < kanzure> and once that node is burned, you move on to the next
12:21 < fenn> does it matter if it takes 5 seconds or 5 minutes or 5 days?
12:22 < kanzure> yeah, because if it takes 5 days maybe the publisher is stupid and will forget
12:22 < kanzure> "any moment now" while watching their logs piped through less
12:22 < fenn> yeah, i dont think the people doing enforcement have shell access
12:23 < kanzure> that should be treated as an unknown
12:23 < fenn> i'm willing to bet these are lawyer type people, the kind that wake up at 6 am and put on perfume and makeup and watch CNN
12:24 < fenn> anyway they're not going to have raw logs blazing across a console
12:25 -!- ivan` [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined ##hplusroadmap
12:25 < brownies> perfume AND makeup? whoa.
12:25 < kanzure> when something bad happens to servers, you don't call in your lawyers to investigate..
12:26 < fenn> they're not lawyers, they just ... act similar
12:27 < kanzure> .title http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XK01XiGhMLI
12:27 < yoleaux> Funniest Harvey Birdman scene (My opinion - YouTube
12:28 -!- FooQuuxman [~test@c-98-215-254-55.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
12:29 < kanzure> hm maybe that's not the right scene. but anyway i'm sure there's a birdman scene that would adequately fit this situation.
12:33 < jrayhawk> klafka: vim likes to call sync() on .viminfo and swap files a lot; it's probable that redis is (unsafely) dirtying multiple gigs of VFS writeback cache on the same filesystem
12:33 < jrayhawk> you can keep track of that with the 'dirty' and 'writeback' sections of /proc/meminfo
12:33 < jrayhawk> e.g. when those reach zero, vim should become usable again
12:34 < kanzure> wasn't there a way to stop vim from doing those things
12:35 < jrayhawk> probably, but the real problem here is leaving massive amounts of cache dirty in order to hide the performance costs of nonvolatile memory
12:35 < jrayhawk> or at least, if you're going to do that, you should be doing it on an isolated filesystem
12:35 < jrayhawk> and on data that you don't really care about
12:36 < kanzure> what about running vim exclusively on /dev/shm in this case?
12:36 < jrayhawk> that was non-sequiter; please rephrase
12:36 < kanzure> is /dev/shm sufficiently isolated to run vim in klafka's situation?
12:37 < jrayhawk> /dev/shm is not relevant
12:37 < kanzure> i thought /dev/shm was an in-RAM filesystem that you can poke and prod?
12:39 < DonnchaC> There does not seem to be an easy way to get around the problem of publishers identifying the sources of papers
12:39 < jrayhawk> technically true, but that one has specific semantics in the filesystem base standard
12:39 < DonnchaC> Obviously if watermarks etc. are removed it's not as immedietly obvious the source.
12:40 < DonnchaC> I suppose you would just need a relatively large number of SOCK's proxies, some time delay and watermark removal
12:41 < DonnchaC> If watermarks are removed its not conclusive that the PDF published is the one download X minutes/hours earlier
12:41 < DonnchaC> Therefore they can't immediatly prove that library is breaking their T&C's of access?
12:41 < jrayhawk> like, you could use that for .viminfo and swap files in the same sense that you could put every file on your filesystem in /
12:42 < jrayhawk> technically possible, and simultaneously disgusting
12:45 < kanzure> DonnchaC: they would have to be extremely patient to gather enough evidence against a particular university, i think
12:45 < kanzure> DonnchaC: of course, if the traffic is not randomly distributed, then it will be more obvious to publishers
12:46 -!- klafka [~klafka@204-16-157-18-static.ipnetworksinc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
12:49 -!- OldCoder_ [~OldCoder_@adsl-64-169-36-85.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
12:50 < kirka> paperbot http://www.sciencemag.org/content/338/6113/1476
12:50 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Hox%20Genes%20Regulate%20Digit%20Patterning%20by%20Controlling%20the%20Wavelength%20of%20a%20Turing-Type%20Mechanism.pdf
12:51 < kanzure> i guess i should make paperbot use sci-hub
12:51 < kirka> Why?
12:54 < juri_> might as well take advantage of their exit nodes.
12:57 < nmz787> so what should i teach this programming student I'm tutoring today?
12:57 < nmz787> first lesson
12:57 < nmz787> i don't want to ramble too much, I'd like to do some excercise
12:57 < eudoxia> http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/book.pdf
12:57 < eudoxia> the first chapters that introduce functions as nodes in a diagram
12:58 < nmz787> I've done some excercise work in the many programming classes i've taken, but my projects are all I remember
12:58 < nmz787> cool, looking now
12:59 < nmz787> i tried explaining the difference between interpreted and compiled languages by saying you don't exactly know what the computer is doing for something like divide by 2, since it could be the actual divide op, or a bit shit
12:59 < nmz787> shift
12:59 < kanzure> i don't think lisp is a good introduction to programming
12:59 -!- nsh [~nsh@obquire.infologie.co] has left ##hplusroadmap ["Leaving"]
12:59 < nmz787> but I don't know how to divide/mult in binary
12:59 < nmz787> so I am not good at explaining that way
12:59 < kanzure> i would say get a user in front of an interpreter as fast as possible (and not lisp)
12:59 < nmz787> yeah he's got python installed
12:59 < kanzure> jenna likes codeskulptor.org
12:59 < eudoxia> the first chapters are language agnostic
13:02 < DonnchaC> I suppose, they do distribute the traffic pretty randomly. If you google translate their donations page it looks like they pay people for the uni socks proxies.
13:03 < kanzure> are they using tor between the universities and their servers?
13:04 < DonnchaC> I don't think so, they actually redirect you to publishers site some times acting as a http proxy.
13:05 < kanzure> oh geeze that's not good
13:05 < DonnchaC> Sorry, connection to bad to check it out at the moment. But I remember requesting an article and being show the published site say I was "Access from xxx university"
13:05 < kanzure> that's bad because they can put cookies on your computer
13:05 < kanzure> and fingerprint your user-agent strings and shit
13:05 < DonnchaC> Have they been up for long?
13:05 < kanzure> sci-hub? no idea.
13:05 < DonnchaC> To what end?
13:06 < kanzure> fingerprinting? any small amount of information leaking out can be used against you.
13:07 < DonnchaC> They could still only set cookies for their own domains. Setting up a large copyright infringing site from multiple publishers to try trace individual users downloading a few papers doesn't sound like a great idea
13:07 < DonnchaC> if they wanted to track people
13:07 < kanzure> cookies could only be accessed through the proxy of course, because of how cross-domain security works, but that's still bad.
13:07 < juri_> nmz787: as a teacher, i try to immediately teach my student enough of a language to accomplish something they want, but is dirt simple. usually shell scripting, or C. by keeping them scratching their own itches, i kept more students.
13:08 < DonnchaC> Hmm, the domain was registered 16 April 2011
13:08 < DonnchaC> I'm not sure if the current site has been there since. Can you check archive.org?
13:09 < DonnchaC> I literally have a few kilobyte/s connection at the moment
13:09 < nmz787> juri_: so projects that they're interested in rather than lame rote excercises?
13:09 < juri_> nmz: yepyep.
13:09 < juri_> thats hard to do, as a lot of people cannot answe rthe question 'what do you want?'.
13:10 < juri_> but, if you can find out what the student wants to do and craft the exercises around that, its a great platform to jump from.
13:11 < juri_> i find that works in about 2 out of every 3 students. have the student it doesn't work on help the other students, and what they want will work its way out after a few weeks.
13:12 < kanzure> DonnchaC: late 2011
13:13 < kanzure> http://web.archive.org/web/20111108222511/http://sci-hub.org/
13:13 < kanzure> "under construction"
13:14 < DonnchaC> They seem to be doing something right if they have kept going that long
13:14 < nmz787> juri_: he seemed to already have modelled some iPhone app in a mock-up program, so I guess he's not too dumb about this stuff :)
13:14 < kanzure> http://web.archive.org/web/20120504015703/http://myescience.org/
13:14 < kanzure> in 2012 it was a vbulletin forum
13:14 < DonnchaC> Maybe the publishers aren't as sharp, as aware or as aggersive as we think
13:15 < DonnchaC> Okay, so this automated system is new?
13:15 < kanzure> "IMPORTANT FOR ALL !! myescience.org does not store any files on its server. We only index and link to content provided by other sites. If you found any copyright infringement, please contact the content providers to delete copyright contents, and email us, we'll remove relevant links or contents immediately."
13:15 < kanzure> http://myescience.org/
13:15 < kanzure> "Threads: 31,374, Posts: 90,764, Members: 68,70"
13:15 < kanzure> oops
13:15 < kanzure> 68,709
13:17 < kanzure> they seem to make you pay to get access to credits to post for someone to fetch papers for you
13:17 < kanzure> http://myescience.org/forumdisplay.php?s=01a856aa284b90a8f3c658c62a5ef191&f=500
13:17 < kanzure> this is very similar to how expaper.cn operates
13:18 < juri_> nmz: excelent. if he's modeled up an iphone app, its time to review the iphone SDK license with him and a lawyer. ;)
13:19 < juri_> personally, i usually start my students out on the subject of morality by watching oppenheimer read his letter.
13:20 < eudoxia> hahaha
13:20 < juri_> in a related subject, isn't everyone here glad they've never had me as a teacher? :)
13:21 < DonnchaC> Thats pretty popular
13:23 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
13:24 < kanzure> DonnchaC: eh, it's not that hard to get people to sign up to forums. people have been indoctrinated to vbulletin, phpbb, ikonboard, ubb, invisionboard, fluxbb, smf, etc. for over a decade now. so they get really interested in new forums (or something).
13:24 < kanzure> DonnchaC: plus, one of the things you do as a forum administrator is you spoof the user registration counter because you want people to think you have activity
13:24 < DonnchaC> From their accounting page they say they give $0-40 per university proxies
13:24 < kanzure> $40/month?
13:25 < DonnchaC> yeah maybe, its on their accounting page
13:25 < kanzure> when i was doing the math for a similar operation, i figured i could get $500-$2k/mo per proxy if there was 1000-5000 people assigned per proxy paying that student
13:25 < kanzure> and it could be pitched as a way to make up for student loan debt
13:25 < DonnchaC> Interesting
13:26 < DonnchaC> Certainly an incentive for broke students to lend their access
13:26 < kanzure> unfortunately the per-proxy coverage isn't high enough
13:26 < jrayhawk> heath: i got your account confirmation email. i would suggest resubmitting that account creation page with a valid address.
13:26 < DonnchaC> Think sci-hub are scripting exproxy access or just using SOCKS?
13:27 < kanzure> well, it doesn't have to be socks, they could be doing many other things too, like a generic https proxy
13:27 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-134-78-149.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: leaving]
13:28 < DonnchaC> Yeah, there's lot of way's they could do it.
13:29 < DonnchaC> They good have got credtials for VPN or SSH tunnel into university and retrieve from there.
13:30 < DonnchaC> I see they are having problems making sure users don't abuse the proxies
13:31 < kanzure> the way i was figuring i would design such a system was with zotero translation-server, and just proxy those requests through some transport layer like https or socks or ssh, possibly while using tor, and only allow those types of requests, instead of other proxy-related traffic.
13:31 < DonnchaC> They seem to have a lot of activity for a RU only site.
13:31 < kanzure> what are you comparing against? i see lots of forums that claim to be this large. again, some of these numbers are probably faked, but i wouldn't be surprised if they are real either..
13:32 < kanzure> consider the forum-torrent-tracker hybrids in russia.. those are many orders of magnitude larger.
13:32 < DonnchaC> Seems like there is huge demand for a sustainable system for open access
13:32 < kanzure> this isn't open access
13:32 < DonnchaC> radical open access
13:33 < kanzure> yes, it's true that people want to read science and use science.
13:34 < DonnchaC> Okay looks like they are using a paid "anonymous" proxy to access the library proxies
13:36 < DonnchaC> kanzure, you met the site owner in 2010?
13:40 < kanzure> when? what?
13:40 < kanzure> sci-hub? i have never heard of sci-hub before today... i think.
13:42 < heath> jrayhawk: heh, yeah the first was incorrect, but i resubmitted a second time immediately afterward but haven't received a confirmation
13:42 < heath> i can try with a different username if that's the problem now
13:42 < DonnchaC> http://sci-hub.copiny.com/idea/details/id/63034
13:43 < DonnchaC> Google translate - "Thank you. However, do not think it's paranoia makes sense, but think worth it :)
13:43 < DonnchaC> And this guy - kanzure - I happened to catch a meeting at a conference in 2010) Good news"
13:43 < kanzure> hmmmm
13:43 < kanzure> i don't understand why they are okay with watermarks. that's really surprising.
13:43 < kanzure> also, since i keep track of everyone i have ever talked with, that guy just revealed himself to me, i think
13:44 < kanzure> especially since the list of people i met at conferences in 2010 is pretty short (<500)
13:44 < heath> nmz787: [22:29:45] <heath> nmz787: so what's the status on your project?
13:44 < heath> [22:30:05] <heath> i just finished watching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6zpEyDvdRA
13:44 < DonnchaC> :) It's a small world.
13:44 < DonnchaC> Maybe something gets a bit lost in translation
13:45 < kanzure> Александра hmm..
13:45 < DonnchaC> kirka: Спасибо. Правда, не думаю, что паранойя имеет смысл, но подумать стоит :)
13:45 < DonnchaC> Sorry, what does that mean?
13:46 < kanzure> i think it's Alexander Nikonov
13:46 < kanzure> oh wait, no.
13:47 < kirka> DonnchaC Ок
13:47 < kanzure> kirka: no, DonnchaC is asking for translation help :)
13:47 < nmz787> heath: which project? i have several
13:48 < kirka> "Thanks, I don;t think that this paranoia is reasonabke, but I'll think about it"
13:48 < kirka> *reasonable
13:48 < nmz787> heath: ahh you're referring to DNA synth?
13:48 < heath> yeah
13:48 < nmz787> heath: working on photolithography equipment this week
13:48 < heath> how so?
13:48 < DonnchaC> Okay, that makes more sense. I guess he is not too worried about burning university proxies?
13:49 < heath> which approach, rather
13:49 < nmz787> heath: once that's working i'll be testing simple microstructures, then simple microchannels with macro fluidic ports attached
13:49 < nmz787> heath: retrofitting a bluray burner
13:50 < kanzure> it seems to be Alexander Kondrat except i don't have this name in my meetlog.. i have Константин Николаевич (who runs The Bank of Personal Immortality) but that's not Kondrat.. hm.
13:51 < kanzure> Kondrat might be a fake name, of course
13:51 < kanzure> DonnchaC: i'm really surprised that they are okay with watermarks. wow.
13:52 < kirka> kanzure I'm too
13:53 < nmz787> backwards it's Tardnok
13:53 < kirka> kanzure Either they know something I don't know, or they underestimate 1B$ corp's lawyers
13:53 < kanzure> kirka: yeah, elsevier is a fucking weapons dealer..
13:53 < kanzure> military
13:53 < heath> nmz787: was afk discussing some other project. that's cool, keep this channel updated, i'm definitely interested
13:55 < DonnchaC> Hopefully they can keep going, it probably helps somewhat that they are in .RU
13:55 < DonnchaC> I'm not sure if they are paying for uni proxys, or just scraping them at the moment
13:56 < DonnchaC> as in finding proxy logins on the net somewhere
13:56 < jrayhawk> heath: Nah, it doesn't actually do anything stateful until the confirmation link is clicked.
13:56 < kanzure> those accounts get locked out quickly (the ones with passwords posted publicly)
13:56 < jrayhawk> asics-blog-post... -02.
13:57 < DonnchaC> Also thanks kirka for the translation
13:57 < kirka> It's easy, don't mind
13:57 < DonnchaC> Got to go
13:57 < kirka> bye
13:58 < jrayhawk> heath: fwiw you can also ssh to newuser@gnusha.org to avoid that confirmation step
13:58 < DonnchaC> Talk to you guys later, hopefully sci-hub can stay successful, and "Alexander" doesn't have too much trouble
13:58 < kanzure> "Александра"
13:58 < DonnchaC> Did google translate that wrong? Sorry, can't really translate names
13:59 < kanzure> it's translated correctly
13:59 < heath> done
13:59 < heath> thanks jrayhawk
14:00 < heath> verified
14:03 < nmz787> heath: will do
14:13 -!- klafka [~klafka@207.239.114.206] has joined ##hplusroadmap
14:14 -!- cogitokat [~kat@ip70-171-26-151.ga.at.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
14:26 -!- klafka [~klafka@207.239.114.206] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:32 -!- Urchin[emacs] [~user@unaffiliated/urchin] has joined ##hplusroadmap
14:55 -!- EnLilaSko [EnLilaSko@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has quit [Quit: - nbs-irc 2.39 - www.nbs-irc.net -]
14:56 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-24-21-206-64.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
15:14 -!- Urchin[emacs] [~user@unaffiliated/urchin] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)]
15:54 -!- klafka [~klafka@c-24-6-18-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
15:56 < klafka> jrayhawk:  thanks for some insight into this
16:03 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
16:13 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:21 -!- FooQuuxman [~test@c-98-215-254-55.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
17:06  * kirka sleeps
17:06 -!- kirka [~Kirka@109.205.253.139] has left ##hplusroadmap []
17:23 -!- Charlie [~quassel@74.63.212.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
17:23 -!- Charlie [~quassel@74.63.212.44] has joined ##hplusroadmap
17:32 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-24-21-206-64.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
17:49 -!- makoLime [~mako@103-9-42-128.flip.co.nz] has joined ##hplusroadmap
17:54 -!- klafka [~klafka@c-24-6-18-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:18 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@cpe-66-27-118-94.san.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
18:52 < brownies> btw
18:52 < brownies> what do you wise old biologists think of Soylent?
18:53 < yashgaroth> I just read the guy's post where he forgot sulfur
18:54 < esclepius> russian speakers here?
18:54 < yashgaroth> also I really doubt that buying purified single chemicals will ever be cheaper than food-based food
18:54 < brownies> yeah i saw that post. that is worrying.
18:55 < brownies> yashgaroth: i don't really care about the cost tbh. i'm interested for the sheer convenience.
18:55 < yashgaroth> then just buy a bunch of muscle milk powder and some sugars and olive oil and drink that shit with a multivitamin
18:55 < brownies> really? can i just use Muscle Milk as a meal replacement?
18:56 < yashgaroth> yeah sure whatever
18:56 < brownies> you do sound like a very concerned nutritionist
18:56 < yashgaroth> or buy one of the hundred other liquid meal replacement drinks
18:56 < brownies> but can man survive on meal replacements alone?
18:56 < yashgaroth> by the definition of 'replacement', sure why not
18:57  * brownies is going to seek a second opinion
18:57 < yashgaroth> without a full list of soylent's ingredients I can't really make any definite claims on it
18:58 < kanzure> esclepius: yes
18:59 < brownies> eh? don't they post a full list of their ingredients?
18:59 < kanzure> brownies: i would bug jrayhawk about nutrition things instead of yashgaroth
18:59 < brownies> kanzure: yeah good point
18:59 < kanzure> yashgaroth just lives on scraps found in his lab
18:59 < kanzure> jrayhawk might actually cook
18:59 < yashgaroth> there were free bagels last week, I snagged so many
18:59 < brownies> but jrayhawk will probably tell me to hunt my own wooly mammoth and feast on it over the flames of an organic fire
18:59 < brownies> honestly keto would be great if it weren't so inconvenient
19:00 < fenn> the meal replacement drinks tend not to provide 100% rda of everything
19:02 < fenn> i think there are some "medical grade" meal replacement thingies that do, but ensure etc don't provide all electrolytes or vitamins
19:02 < yashgaroth> brownies: I haven't found their list of ingredients yet, aside from snippets of text on his tupperware in videos; I think they're releasing it at some point in the indeterminate future
19:03 < brownies> yeah. i would like to see the full ingredient list for sure.
19:03 < ParahSail1n> i thought he gave one
19:04 < ParahSail1n> lol keto inconvenient
19:04 -!- klafka [~klafka@c-24-6-18-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
19:05 < yashgaroth> he has a rather vague list
19:05 < ParahSail1n> what i find inconvenient is being ravenously hungry every four hours and needing to run out somewhere or die
19:05 < brownies> "My mixture now has 409g of carbohydrates, 65g of fat, and 102g of protein."
19:05 < brownies> pretty crazy macro distribution
19:05 < fenn> the vagueness concerns me. also the fact that the entire collective wisdom of the internet has basically nothing useful to contribute
19:05 < brownies> ParahSail1n: eh it's just a lot of work to always be cooking cows and chickens
19:07 < fenn> how about pea protein
19:07 < ParahSail1n> pretty easy to buy cooked meat
19:08 < brownies> but then you have to go stock up every few days, and keep it cold all the time
19:09 -!- klafka [~klafka@c-24-6-18-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
19:09 < ParahSail1n> if you're doing more typical diet you still have to buy food...
19:10 < kanzure> brownies pays for all of his meals to be delivered to him by way of uber
19:10 < brownies> i do eat out pretty often.
19:11 < yashgaroth> also the only ones using soylent right now are people who are super jazzed about how it's the future of food blahblah and aren't a controlled study
19:11 < brownies> yeah that is what i find the most worrying.
19:12 < yashgaroth> 'oh I totally have so much energy now' can be an entirely mental phenomenon, and often is
19:12 < brownies> it's all a bunch of amateur kids who are treating it with about the same seriousness as a weekend programming hack
19:12 < brownies> yashgaroth: yeah controlled would be good. i guess double-blind is hard, but controlled would be a good step.
19:13 < yashgaroth> at least just an unbiased group, rather than people who are willing to fork over money and buy in completely
19:14 < brownies> yeah exactly. it seems too soon to go around hawking it as a product that will save the world.
19:20 < jrayhawk> provided there's no insulin resistance, that macro ratio is not particularly scary
19:21 < jrayhawk> bearing in mind that fat and protein have twice the caloric concentration of carbohydrate
19:21 < jrayhawk> various pacific islanders such as the tokelau and the kitavans did just fine on that ratio
19:21 -!- FooQuuxman [~test@c-98-215-254-55.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
19:23 < jrayhawk> Soylent is one hell of a lot better than what most people eat; it's non-immunogenic and generally a lot more nutrient-complete than your average poptart. The two main criticisms I have for it are poor micronutrient form and overabsorbability.
19:25 < fenn> the oligosaccharides?
19:25 < fenn> re: overabsorbability
19:26 < jrayhawk> Among other nutrients that would otherwise arrive in bulk to feed the gut flora.
19:27 < jrayhawk> It's important to remember that when you're eating, you're eating for one trillion
19:28 < jrayhawk> Eating a bunch of simple sugars, simple peptides, and simple fats, all perfectly dissolved/emulsified in solution means you're probably going to starve most of your gut bacteria
19:29 < jrayhawk> those suckers are responsible for a whole lot of hormonal and immunological modulation
19:29 < jrayhawk> and maintaining protective biofilms
19:41 -!- aristarchus [~aristarch@unaffiliated/aristarchus] has joined ##hplusroadmap
19:44 < jrayhawk> and w.r.t. micronutrients, he seems rather cavalier about form; mentions e.g. "vitamin k" without saying if it's the cheap lousy one (K1) or the expensive useful one (MK-4) or something inbetween; same thing with "vitamin D" (d2 vs d3), and with B12 (cyano- vs methyl-), and EFAs (LA and ALA vs AA and DHA) and folate (folic acid vs any tetrahydrofolate) and minerals (phytate-bound or chelated) etc. etc. etc.
19:44 < jrayhawk> and some crap like calcium is disastrous to bolus-dose
19:44 < kanzure> is there any legitimate reason he would be lax on specifying that? it seems like if he was aware of the importance then he would be more explicit about his choices.
19:45 < jrayhawk> he seemed to care more about economy than efficacy
19:45 < jrayhawk> he actually seemed downright excited about the prospect of becoming a walking billboard for novel forms of vitamin deficiency.
19:46 < jrayhawk> if he actually cared about nutrient form, most soylent would become much less economical than real food
19:48 < jrayhawk> and yes, he definitely forgot the essential wooly mammoth supplementation
19:48 < fenn> supplements are very nutrient-dense (obviously) so you can make a lot of "food" with a small number of pills
19:49 < fenn> so even though the supplements are expensive it doesn't mean that it will cost more than food
19:50 < jrayhawk> I dunno, I can buy one hell of a lot of fish for the cost of a single bottle of fermented cod liver oil or algal DHA
19:51 < jrayhawk> and the fish comes packaged with antioxidants and relatively inert and opaque tissues
19:51 < fenn> hm. i just bought 360 count 1.2gram fish oil capsules at the grocery store for $15
19:51 < kanzure> http://biohackyourself.com/quantified-self-europe-2013/ (a report, not an announcement)
19:52 < fenn> let's also assume pea protein costs $20/kg
19:52 < jrayhawk> isolated, esterified, heat treated
19:53 < fenn> what sort of fish
19:53 < jrayhawk> not so good for efficacy
19:53 < fenn> not esterified, it's just fish oil
19:54 < fenn> i know a dead fish contains more than just protein and fish oil, but lets do the math
19:54 < jrayhawk> http://www.ascentahealth.com/health-science/science-articles/fish-oil-triglycerides-vs-ethyl-esters-as-nature-intended
19:55 < fenn> yes i know about that issue and it's irrelevant, these aren't esterified
19:55 < jrayhawk> how can you tell?
19:55 < fenn> because it says "fish oil"
19:55 < fenn> not "fish oil concentrate" or "ultra mega fish kablammo"
19:56 < jrayhawk> "fish oil" is not regulated in that way
19:57 < fenn> they have no incentive to purify a product and then dilute it
19:58 < jrayhawk> except to advertise higher DHA and EPA doseages
19:58 < jrayhawk> wait, dilute it?
19:59 < jrayhawk> where does the dilution occur?
19:59 < jrayhawk> or, rather, what would imply dilution?
19:59 < fenn> the label says "each 1.2 gram capsule contains: 360mg omega-3 fatty acids  DHA *** EPA ***" (they didnt bother to measure them individually)
19:59 < fenn> the esterified products are nearly 100% omega-3
20:00 < fenn> but fish oil is 50-80% saturated fat
20:01 < jrayhawk> alright, i will take back "esterified"
20:01 < fenn> so anyway, the cheapest fish i can contemplate eating regularly is canned mackerel, at $1.68 per 300g drained mass
20:02 -!- soylentbomb [~k@unaffiliated/soylentbomb] has joined ##hplusroadmap
20:02 < fenn> it's usually more like $3 but whatever
20:02 < jrayhawk> that is a terrifyingly low price, but i suppose mackerel is kinda gross anyway
20:04 < fenn> according to the USDA, 300g drained canned mackerel contains 70g protein, 4.4g omega-3 fat
20:04 < jrayhawk> what sort of multiplier we should put on oxidation potential
20:04 < fenn> unsure, the canned mackerel smells much fishier than the capsules
20:05 < jrayhawk> haha, yeah, i always have wondered about that
20:05 < jrayhawk> if mackerel is just an especially stressed class of fish
20:05 < fenn> i assumed it was from the heat of the canning process
20:06 < jrayhawk> even fresh mackerel tastes kinda spoiled
20:06 < jrayhawk> canned fish i am just not capable of eating
20:06 < fenn> btw mackerel is especially high in oils, which is the whole point of this exercise
20:06 < jrayhawk> yeah, it's also amazingly cheap as far as the fatty fish go
20:06 < jrayhawk> usually fatty fish are prized
20:08 < ParahSail1n> well, chemically defined diets are the way people discover new vital nutrients
20:08 < ParahSail1n> so theres a chance useful data will come out of this soylent craze
20:08 < fenn> so to make the same quantity of industrial fish concentrate we'd need $0.14 worth of fish oil and $1.40 worth of pea protein
20:09 < fenn> my pea protein price was somewhat arbitrary, i should have checked
20:09 < ParahSail1n> why pea as opposed to soy?
20:09 < fenn> because soy lied to me and broke my heart
20:10 < jrayhawk> haha
20:10 < fenn> eh pea protein is $18/kg so it's about right
20:11 < fenn> so in summary, canned fish is an affordable source of protein, but an expensive source of DHA and EPA
20:13 < jrayhawk> http://www.westonaprice.org/vitamins-and-minerals/beyond-good-and-evil and of course protein profiles matter
20:13 < fenn> of course
20:13 < fenn> there's also rice protein
20:15 < fenn> the gSH bonds in whey/eggs is another interesting thing to think about
20:17 -!- superkuh [~superkuh@unaffiliated/superkuh] has quit [Quit: the neuronal action potential is an electrical manipulation of reversible abrupt phase changes in the lipid bilayer]
20:19 < jrayhawk> oh yeah, have you seen any studies demonstrating efficacy of direct GSH supplementation vs. precursors?
20:19 < jrayhawk> in humans, that is
20:19 < jrayhawk> not rodents
20:19 < fenn> realistically speaking though, there's no way i could eat 70g of pea protein in a single sitting, whereas i could certainly eat 70g of whey, and 300g of mackerel is no problem
20:19 < jrayhawk> i dunno, if you put it in a drink with 60% glucose...
20:20 < fenn> is the glucose supposed to make me feel less full?
20:20 < fenn> the problem with pea protein is it's "heavy"
20:20 < jrayhawk> appropriate ratios of fat/salt/sugar do alter ghrelin signaling, yeah.
20:21 < ParahSail1n> isnt bean protein, like, pure trypsin inhibitor? do they denature pea protein in some way?
20:21 < jrayhawk> IIRC pea is fairly innocuous as legumes go
20:21 < fenn> so i'd like to point out that sugar is 50% fructose
20:21 < jrayhawk> Yeah, fructose has some other downstream effects, but I mean just the taste alone.
20:22 < jrayhawk> Those food-palatability-and-reward researchers Taubes hates so much occasionally do interesting things!
20:22 < fenn> um, so adding glucose to protein reduces satiety?
20:23 < ParahSail1n> paperbot, http://jxb.oxfordjournals.org/content/44/4/701.full.pdf
20:23 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/75b736657bb9caa0bbbb55d67ad07ab.txt
20:23 < jrayhawk> and fat and salt, presumably
20:23 < fenn> i think fat increases satiety
20:23 < fenn> dunno about salt
20:23 < jrayhawk> in isolation, yeah.
20:24 < fenn> so is there like a macronutrient satiety matrix i can use to figure this all out?
20:24 < ParahSail1n> paperbot, http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/001457939500070P
20:24 < paperbot> no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Multiple%20isoforms%20of%20.pdf
20:26 < kanzure> 05:47 < heath> 404: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/books/Molecular%20Biology%20of%20the%20Gene%20-%202006.pdf
20:26 < kanzure> 05:47 < heath> linked from http://diyhpl.us/wiki/diybio/faq/books/
20:26 < kanzure> heath: you can update that link yourself, you know
20:26 < jrayhawk> that was immediately before he tried signing up
20:27 < jrayhawk> so presumably he's trying
20:27 < ParahSail1n> paperbot, http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=1351908
20:27 < paperbot> error: HTTP 500 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/6db54961be0db629cf79fb4cc2abdd0a.txt
20:27 < kanzure> jrayhawk: i didn't receive an email about that afaik
20:27 < jrayhawk> oh, that's odd. i'll go take a look.
20:28 < kanzure> but you did?
20:28 < heath> i'll continue trying and actually do it later :)
20:28 < kanzure> ssh newuser@diyhpl.us
20:28 < jrayhawk> May 21 13:58:33 bryan sudo:  newuser : TTY=pts/34 ; PWD=/var/empty ; USER=root ; COMMAND=/usr/sbin/newuser
20:28 < jrayhawk> May 21 13:58:33 bryan sudo: pam_unix(sudo:session): session opened for user root by newuser(uid=136)
20:28 < jrayhawk> May 21 13:59:09 bryan useradd[9098]: new user: name=heath, UID=1049, GID=100, home=/home/heath, shell=/usr/bin/pinyshell
20:28 < kanzure> git clone heath@diyhpl.us:/srv/git/diyhpluswiki.git
20:28 < kanzure> make your changes then git push origin master
20:29 < jrayhawk> 2013-05-21 13:59:15 1UeteM-0002Mj-Bf <= root@bryan.svcs.cs.pdx.edu H=(bryan.svcs.cs.pdx.edu) [131.252.130.248] P=smtp S=639 id=1369169949.302076.9094.nullmailer@bryan.svcs.cs.pdx.edu
20:29 < jrayhawk> 2013-05-21 13:59:18 1UeteM-0002Mj-Bf => kanzure@gmail.com R=router_smtp T=transport_smtp H=mailhost.cecs.pdx.edu [131.252.208.110] X=TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32
20:30 < jrayhawk> 2013-05-21 13:59:18 1UeteM-0002Mj-Bf Completed
20:30 < kanzure> what does "Completed" mean.
20:30 < fenn> ug all this weston price stuff makes me sad
20:30 < kanzure> "it means not my problem" narf
20:30 < jrayhawk> that means the delivery to my smarthost was successful, at least
20:31 < kanzure> yeah i see nothing new from root@bryan.svcs.cs.pdx.edu (and wasn't marked as spam)
20:33 < jrayhawk> paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0091302212000039
20:33 < paperbot> no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Feed-forward%20mechanisms%3A%20Addiction-like%20behavioral%20and%20molecular%20adaptations%20in%20overeating.txt
20:33 < kanzure> no access :|
20:34 < kanzure> i recommend trying http://sci-hub.org/
20:34 < ParahSail1n> yeah im gonna do the cool russian version of paperbot
20:34 < jrayhawk> paperbot: http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/97/3/745.short
20:34 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Regulation%20of%20Food%20Intake%2C%20Energy%20Balance%2C%20and%20Body%20Fat%20Mass%3A%20Implications%20for%20the%20Pathogenesis%20and%20Treatment%20of%20Obesity.pdf
20:35 < kanzure> ParahSail1n: please. i'd like to use it as a fall-back or something in paperbot.
20:35 < ParahSail1n> whys everything go to kremlin
20:35 < kanzure> because they hate your ip address
20:36 < kanzure> it's funny because the biggest publishers actually aren't in the us. elsevier and springer are both from europe.
20:36 < ParahSail1n> whose ip works with sci-hub
20:37 -!- aristarchus [~aristarch@unaffiliated/aristarchus] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20:37 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-24-21-206-64.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
20:38 < jrayhawk> ugh, food palatability researchers use so many rodent models
20:38 < kanzure> route your traffic through 91.202.165.73:8080
20:39 < jrayhawk> fenn: sorry, i can't find a quick summary of the satiety situation due to rats and mice eating my sanity
20:39 < fenn> *squee*
20:40 < jrayhawk> sites 39-47 on that guyenet paper are at least a start
20:40 < kanzure> narf
20:40  * fenn mumbles something about fugly url codes
20:42 < ParahSail1n> manually brute forcing the proxies on the sci-hub is mildly inconvenient
20:44 < ParahSail1n> weird, either sci-hub uploaded it here automatically or they just found the paper mirrored http://pdf.highwire.org/stamped/jexbot/44/4/701.full.pdf
20:46 < fenn> sardine oil is 30% monounsaturated, 30% saturated, 30% polyunsaturated (6% mystery)
20:47 < ParahSail1n> cholesterol
20:47 < fenn> not enough to account for the 300mg discrepancy
20:53 < kanzure> ParahSail1n: highwire.org is a publisher. they offer some paid fee structure for journals. sort of a "self-publish" platform of one sort or another.
20:55 < kanzure> ParahSail1n: if 91.202.165.73:8080 doesn't work then let me know and i can dig up something better
20:55 < ParahSail1n> that proxy worked, thanks
20:55 < kanzure> ok cool.
20:56 < jrayhawk> 10% delicious radicals
20:57 < fenn> radicals are a root vegetable
20:57 < ParahSail1n> 木 tree radical
20:57 < fenn> 本 root radical
20:58 < ParahSail1n> im not sure thats a one
21:03 < fenn> 隹 turkey radical
21:05 < kanzure> javascript is so broken :(
21:05 < kanzure> https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/phantomjs/1qRimpzdG3U
21:06 < ParahSail1n> lol
21:08 < fenn> did google groups always have an exclamation point in the url?
21:08 < brownies> isn't it one of those #! URLs?
21:10 < kanzure> fenn: no, this is google groups since 2011 or 2012
21:10 < kanzure> fenn: this version of google groups blows..
21:11 < fenn> hey, some people like having only 25% of their screen showing content
21:11 < kanzure> but in particular, i was expressing infuriation about phantomjs
21:11 < kanzure> the new google groups url structure is really quite evil
21:11 < brownies> fenn: i've always felt that google needed more persistent top navbars... just a big fat stack of 'em
21:11 < kanzure> brownies: perhaps they should enlist bonzai buddy and get over with it.
21:12 < fenn> what we really need is a purple talking google car to drive you around the information superhighway
21:16 < kanzure> they really botched the google groups product up
21:16 < kanzure> i wonder what they are going to do with their usenet archives. are they just going to delete everything?
21:16 < fenn> they'll put them with the digitized book archives
21:17 < fenn> how big is it anyway?
21:18 < kanzure> well henry spencer had basically everything back to 1979 (for some reason)
21:18 < kanzure> and google just acquired the archives from him
21:19 < kanzure> he is very responsive by email... Henry Spencer <henry@zoo.utoronto.ca>
21:19 < fenn> i've seen that name before
21:19 < brownies> when you say "acquired," what do you mean exactly?
21:19 < kanzure> i mean they asked him and he was like "here you go"
21:19 < brownies> oh ok
21:19 < brownies> so he still has them
21:20 < kanzure> you've seen his name because he emails with john carmack and friends for rocket reasons
21:20 < brownies> ...presumably.
21:20 < brownies> i've never seen his name =/
21:20 < fenn> must be from the space usenet archives
21:20 < fenn> http://yarchive.net/space/
21:20 < kanzure> or http://www.blastzone.com/arocket
21:22 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Spencer "Henry Spencer is a Canadian computer programmer and space enthusiast. He wrote "regex", a widely-used software library for regular expressions, and co-wrote C News, a Usenet server program. He also wrote The Ten Commandments for C Programmers.[1] He is coauthor, with David Lawrence, of the book Managing Usenet.[2] While working at the University of Toronto he ran the first active Usenet site outside ...
21:22 < kanzure> ... the U.S., starting in 1981. His records from that period were eventually acquired by Google to provide an archive of Usenet in the 1980s."
21:22 < kanzure> "The small size of Usenet in its youthful days, and Spencer's early involvement, made him a well-recognised participant; this is commemorated in Vernor Vinge's 1992 novel A Fire Upon the Deep. "
21:22 < kanzure> well fuck that why the fuck aren't i commemorated in a fire upon the deep
21:23 < kanzure> "oh hush bryan you haven't even read it"
21:23 < brownies> better email Vernor Vinge
21:23 < brownies> "hey bro what the fuck"
21:23 < kanzure> "he novel featured an interstellar communications medium remarkably similar to Usenet, down to the author including spurious message headers; one of the characters who appeared solely through postings to this was modeled on Spencer (and, slightly obliquely, named for him)."
21:23 < kanzure> "He is also credited with the claim that "Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly."[3]"
21:24 < kanzure> "Between 1981 and 1991, while running the zoology department's computer system at the University of Toronto, Spencer copied more than 2 million Usenet messages onto magnetic tapes. The 141 tapes wound up at the University of Western Ontario, where Google's Michael Schmidt tracked them down and, with the help of David Wiseman and others,[4] got them transferred onto disks and into Google's archives.[5]"
21:24 < kanzure> "He also wrote 'aaa' - the Amazing Awk Assembler which is one of the longest and most complex programs ever written in the awk programming language." ok so he is clinically crazy
21:24 < kanzure> "He is a highly regarded space enthusiast, and is a familiar and respected presence on several space forums on Usenet and the Internet. From 1983 to 2007 Spencer posted over 34,000 messages to the sci.space.* newsgroups. His knowledge of space history and technology is such that the "I Corrected Henry Spencer" virtual T-shirt award was created as a reward for anyone who can catch him in an error of fact."
21:25 < fenn> kanzure: http://twirlip.net/ see anything familiar there?
21:25 < heath> I'm at 96% of Gpacity, guess it's time to leave
21:25 < heath> Gmail's capacity
21:25 < kanzure> heath: pay for storage space. you know you want to.
21:25 < ParahSail1n> store stuff on flickr
21:25 < kanzure> fenn: yeah a little, something about blighter.
21:26 < brownies> how much data is 141 tapes?
21:26 < kanzure> oh this is paul fernhout
21:26 < brownies> did google transfer them onto disks or did he?
21:26 < kanzure> pointrel should have been more immediately obvious
21:26  * brownies grumbles at the vagueness
21:27 < kanzure> i like how it says "with the help of David Wiseman and others"
21:27 < kanzure> because transfering data from tape is a huge project
21:27 < kanzure> involving multiple Official Google Engineers
21:28 < kanzure> why would they transfer them to disks anyway.. what year was this, 1995?
21:29 < kanzure> ParahSail1n: https://github.com/ricardobeat/filr
21:31 < fenn> storing crap in a metadata field of an image seems like a brutal hack
21:32 < kanzure> well the metadata is supposed to stay put, right?
21:32 < fenn> i mean, it's easier to check for than trying to find noise in images
21:32 < kanzure> it would be handy if you could force people to couple metadata with data by making the two parts useless without each other
21:33 < fenn> flickr could arbitrarily set a limit on image metadata size, or just fuck with you somehow
21:33 < kanzure> oh it's not storing in pixel data?
21:33 < kanzure> guess i should look next time
21:34 < fenn> it's interesting how the images dont look totally random
21:34 < fenn> uh, talking about http://www.nihilogic.dk/labs/canvascompress/
21:34 < kanzure> http://search.cpan.org/dist/Net-FS-Flickr/ "Stores versioned files by encoding them in the lower order bits of PNGs in a Flickr set."
21:34 < kanzure> example: http://www.flickr.com/photos/simonwistow/sets/72057594097765821/
21:34 < kanzure> wow you have to fucking sign in now?
21:34 < fenn> looks like he marked that non-public
21:36 < kanzure> "Your kanzure Yahoo! ID uses the email address kanzure@gmail.com. That email address is already associated with the kanzure account on Flickr."
21:36 < kanzure> "If you are trying to create a new Flickr account for your kanzure Yahoo! ID, you need to either: Remove the kanzure@gmail.com email address from your kanzure Flickr account. (You'll need to sign in to Flickr with your cm007x2 Yahoo! ID to do this.) Or,Change the primary email address for your kanzure Yahoo! ID. (Your kanzure Yahoo! preferences.)"
21:36 < kanzure> who the hell is cm007x2
21:36 < kanzure> "If you are trying to access your kanzure Flickr account, please sign in to Yahoo! again with your cm007x2 Yahoo! ID."
21:36 < fenn> it's yahoo's secret spy agent
21:37 < fenn> cock mongler double oh seven (twin)
21:37 < kanzure> "Oops! You don't have permission to view this page." i guess i should have trusted you, huh.
21:38 < kanzure> no way man it stood for codemaster
21:38 < kanzure> i was a game hax0r, remember?
21:39 < kanzure> gah i can never figure out how to view source code while on cpan.org
21:39 < kanzure> oh wait here it is http://cpansearch.perl.org/src/SIMONW/Net-FS-Flickr-0.1/
21:39 < kanzure> http://cpansearch.perl.org/src/SIMONW/Net-FS-Flickr-0.1/lib/Net/FS/Flickr/Access.pm
21:40 < kanzure> i sort of doubt the same api works
21:40 < heath> send Erik Winfree et. al. a message, i'm sure they'd to hear from you: 131.215.135.107
21:41 < heath> problems? try this one: 131.215.135.13
21:41 < kanzure> "Access Denied. Your IP Address cannot access this device."
21:42 < heath> grabbed from http://dna.caltech.edu/wikis/dnawiki/index.php/Printer_Info
21:43 < kanzure> why are you obsessing over a researcher i was infringing on 5 years ago?
21:43 < fenn> i think the idea is to send them DNA sequences via fax machine, right heath?
21:44 < heath> :)
21:44 < fenn> you can encode arbitrary computations as DNA tiles. the rest is left up to the student as an exercise
21:44  * heath reads http://heybryan.org/winfree.html 
21:45 < heath> s/reads/rereads
21:45 < kanzure> you might be interested in the resulting paper:
21:45 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/ellington/Modelling%20amorphous%20computations%20with%20transcription%20networks%20-%202009.pdf
21:46 < kanzure> (naturally i was not included as a coauthor but whatever, they will not survive the resulting metalocalypse)
21:48 < kanzure> wtf i knew vhdl93 in 2008?
21:48 < heath> kanzure: i don't understand how you were infringing on the Winfree?
21:49 < kanzure> the origins of that paper began with copying some of his work, sorta
21:49 < kanzure> "replicating"
21:49 < heath> s/\?/\. #grr at typing when Webkit is compiling
21:50 < kanzure> "Recently, engineered nucleic acid logic switches based on hybridization and conformational changes have been successfully demonstrated in vivo (15,16)."
21:51 < kanzure> anyway, the problem with most of thsi is that it's a fun novelty but there aren't that many problems worth trying with rna or dna computing
21:51 < kanzure> *this
21:51 < kanzure> not even a SAT solver is worth it really
21:51 < heath> poop
21:51 < fenn> it is worth thinking about, there's avogadro's number computational units in a bucket of DNA
21:52 < fenn> the problem is the atrocious crosstalk and low signal to noise ratio
21:52 < fenn> we dont know how to design problems to work with that system
21:53 < fenn> i dont like the whole transcriptional logic idea though, it's trying to draw an analogy where there really isnt one
21:54 < fenn> a loop of dna being extended is not equivalent to a circuit with a voltage
21:55 < kanzure> i'm not exactly willing to reload this stuff into working memory at the moment
21:55 < kanzure> i am experiencing enough existential anxiety with javascript on my own thank you very much
21:56 < fenn> well you dont have to think about it right now
22:00 < fenn> time to prune some neurons... /me sleeps
22:00 < kanzure> gha "onShouldInterruptJs"
22:00 < kanzure> "onShouldJustFuckingWorkForOnce"
22:00 < kanzure> *gah
22:02 < jrayhawk> fenn: what was making you sad about that WAPF thing
22:04 < kanzure> 13:59 < Speedstick> also does kanzure = Ariya?
22:04 < kanzure> 14:04 < Speedstick> so kansure is the creator of phantomjs?
22:04 < kanzure> 14:04 < Speedstick> kanzure rather
22:04 < kanzure> why would i ever do such a thing
22:06 < brownies> do you see what happens when you write this much JS
22:07 < brownies> soon you and the interpreter will become one
22:07 < brownies> or maybe you'll tell me one of these days "hey meteor is actually a really good idea"
22:07 < jrayhawk> does that mean kanzure will be stymied by http redirects
22:07 < brownies> ohai jrayhawk
22:08 < brownies> i think he is *already* stymied by http redirects ;)
22:08 < kanzure> i have turned to expressing my rage in other ways http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbo6Xvh0kZ4&list=PLgO7JBj821uGNUiLT2hIuKHLywYiQdgzF
22:10 < kanzure> btw here's the fucking http 302 redirect workaround https://gist.github.com/amenzhinsky/5245915
22:12 < nmz787> i had a workaround for 302s when i was using plupload
22:13 < nmz787> where did google cache links go?
22:13 < kanzure> google no longer believes in showing you cache links
22:14 < kanzure> google scholar still shows cache links and you can type in other urls to try to get a cache for a non-academic page, but it doesn't always work
22:14 < jrayhawk> wait what
22:14 < kanzure> and you end up on googlewebcache.com or something
22:14 < jrayhawk> cache:farts.com still works fine
22:14 < kanzure> never works for me
22:15 < kanzure> remember that google runs experiments on its users and some populations have features enabled while others don't
22:16 < nmz787> cache: doesn't help
22:16 < jrayhawk> also sometimes caches get invalidated while indexes and content previews for those indexes stay around; not sure why
22:16 < jrayhawk> but that's been true for most of google's history
22:16 < kanzure> caches have always been dodgey for me
22:16 < kanzure> i see people posting coral cache links, and those tend to always work
22:17 < kanzure> sometimes people post a google cache link and those work, but i never have any idea how to predict whether or not google will allow you to see a cached version..
22:17 < kanzure> brownies: http://www.ryanbridges.org/2013/05/21/putting-the-flash-back-in-phantomjs/
22:18 < ParahSail1n> if you see the down arrow in search, there's usually a cache
22:18 < kanzure> the down arrow! why didn't i think of that.
22:18 < kanzure> what happened to just having a green 'Cached' link below the result? :(
22:18 < nmz787> i'm looking for this
22:18 < nmz787> http://www.rjmcnamara.com/lego-minstorms/java-lego-mindstorms-nxt/
22:19 < ParahSail1n> google has twice made the cache harder to find
22:19 < ParahSail1n> used to be the >> arrow that you had to press
22:19 < nmz787> the down arrow only says share
22:19 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap
22:19 < kanzure> nmz787: http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.rjmcnamara.com/lego-minstorms/java-lego-mindstorms-nxt/
22:20 < kanzure> http://web.archive.org/web/20120724222211/http://www.rjmcnamara.com/lego-minstorms/
22:21 < kanzure> i thought it was mindstorms
22:21 < kanzure> not minstorms..
22:21 < nmz787> yeah
22:21 < nmz787> the cached link doesn't work you gave
22:21 < nmz787> i guess they got it too late
22:21 < kanzure> it seems to be accurate to me
22:21 < nmz787> just says page suspended
22:21 < kanzure> yeah
22:21 < kanzure> archive.org got that
22:23 < ParahSail1n> whats a cheap brazing alloy for ferrous-copper bonding
22:25 < brownies> that's fucked up
22:25 < brownies> why is google making itself less useful =(
22:26 < brownies> kanzure: see, that kind of code just hurts my brain. and not in a good way.
22:26 < kanzure> i have no idea how substack is able to operate
22:26 < kanzure> in a past life he was writing haskell so it is possible that he is brain damaged
22:27 < brownies> perhaps he wrote a haskell-to-js compiler and he's still just writing haskell
22:27 < brownies> that would explain some things.
22:27 < kanzure> brownies: that guy that i paired with didn't know that "not" was valid in coffeescript
22:28 < brownies> kanzure: =(
22:28 < brownies> in fairness, i do have to open coffeescript.org whenever i spend any serious time writing it
22:31 < nmz787> leads me to believe google will start doing/aiding shady activities
22:31 -!- kmo [~kmo@unaffiliated/kmo] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
22:31 < nmz787> i'm kinda glad apple got caught by the IRS or whatever
22:31 < yashgaroth> start?
22:42 < heath> [23:52:07] <fenn> the problem is the atrocious crosstalk and low signal to noise ratio
22:42 < heath> crosstalk?
22:44 < heath> Darkfall - Kill The Need, thanks kanz
22:53 -!- klafka [~klafka@c-24-6-18-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
23:00 -!- soylentbomb [~k@unaffiliated/soylentbomb] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
23:33 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@cpe-66-27-118-94.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
23:40 -!- kmo [122@d30-138.icpnet.pl] has joined ##hplusroadmap
23:40 -!- kmo [122@d30-138.icpnet.pl] has quit [Changing host]
23:40 -!- kmo [122@unaffiliated/kmo] has joined ##hplusroadmap
23:42 < kanzure> i think we are missing 10 people.
23:42 < kanzure> are we still in the middle of a netsplit?
23:43 -!- kmo is now known as kajetan
23:51 < lichen> ive been having problems connecting to freenode for several days
23:51 < lichen> others might be having issues as well?
--- Log closed Wed May 22 00:00:34 2013