--- Log opened Mon May 12 00:00:02 2014
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04:19 < kanzure> or not
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04:35 < kanzure> so many birds. why can't they be quiet?
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05:32 < superkuh> http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/vaop/ncurrent/abs/nn.3719.html - Reliable induction of lucid dreams through (transcranial?) DC stimulation.Not only is this functionally cool, but it adds more support for the idea that 40 Hz thalamocortical oscillations are necessary (but maybe not sufficient) for consciousness.
05:32 < superkuh> paperbot: http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/vaop/ncurrent/abs/nn.3719.html
05:39 < superkuh> Nevermind. LibGen had it.
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06:41 < FourFire> fenn I totally agree about energy use, burning oil is a massive waste of extremely useful chemical material: we should be running much more nuclear power
06:43 < FourFire> fenn,
06:43 < FourFire> "that feature size does not seem unreasonable for homebrew non-billion-dollar fabs" were you two discussing DIY processor fabrication later than that?
06:46 < andytoshi> superkuh: pretty neat, i wonder how easy that is to set up at home
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09:02 < kanzure> fenn: here's a thought, you could always go troll the librarians in #code4lib and tell them how much they failed you
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09:03 < kanzure> http://chronicle.com/blogs/wiredcampus/hazards-of-the-cloud-data-storage-services-crash-sets-back-researchers/52571
09:04 < kanzure> superkuh: i know someone who desperately wants the opposite function (turning off lucid dreaming)
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09:09 < eudoxia> http://web.archive.org/web/19990501121022/http://www.carol.com/mass.shtml
09:09 < eudoxia> closed-source software (single tear), some pdb's and gifs from like a million years ago
09:09 < kanzure> .title
09:09 < yoleaux> Molecular Assembly Sequence Software
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09:47 < kanzure> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7731624 "When I've taken this thought to its extreme, Chuck Moore's ideology around Forth makes total sense: If a problem is only going to be solved in a complex, Byzantine fashion, it's the wrong problem. Walk away from it. Solve a different one. Quit the job. Reconsider your lifestyle. And most people aren't going to be able to consider it seriously on that level. The monstrous systems are there because ...
09:47 < kanzure> ... everyone involved has collectively agreed that whatever is justifying the problem is so important that it's OK to let the resulting system grow monster-sized and swallow everyone up. On that basis the only thing anyone can hope for is a painkiller to make the monster a little less soul-crushing."
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11:46 < kanzure> nothing here is redeeming for anders http://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/25cnbr/science_ama_series_we_are_researchers_at_the/?sort=top
11:46 < kanzure> what a disappointment
11:55 < delinquentme> paperbot no here =[
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12:55 < fenn> yay image maps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Eye_anatomy
12:56 < kanzure> "As for our funding, right now my main funding is actually an industry collaboration with an insurance company (Amlin)!" argh wtf
12:59 < kanzure> how about the existential risk of anders wasting his time
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13:32 < fenn> so has chuck moore etched his own processors by hand yet
13:32 < fenn> with a sharp knife on a germanium plate
13:32 < fenn> jk i love chuck moore's approach
13:34 < kanzure> am i supposed to know him?
13:37 < fenn> "colorForth was originally developed as the scripting language for Moore's own homebrew VLSI CAD program OKAD"
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13:39 < fenn> http://www.greenarraychips.com/ i'm not sure how these specs compare to modern things like parallella, but it sounds pretty impressive for one guy's work
13:39 < fenn> .wik parallella
13:39 < yoleaux> "Adapteva is a fabless semiconductor company focusing on low power multi-core microprocessor design. The company was the first company to announce a design with 1000 general-purpose microprocessors on a single chip." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adapteva
13:41 < fenn> it is more of a microcontroller mindset than a "miniature supercomputer"
13:46 < ParahSailin> i hope i get mine
13:47 < ParahSailin> it was sent to an old address
13:47 < fenn> forth is very efficient with not just memory and cpu usage, but also screen space of code and lets you mess with the guts of any part of the OS or language; the ability to redefine anything reminds me of lisp
13:48 < fenn> i haven't tried to learn it
13:48 < fenn> it's stack based like postscript
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13:52 < kanzure> .g okad cad vlsi
13:52 < yoleaux> http://www.ultratechnology.com/okad2.htm
13:52 < kanzure> does this just do layout?
13:52 < fenn> there was some criticism that "okad could only be used to design chuck moore's tiny forth chips"
13:52 < fenn> not a "real" (read bloat) computer
13:56 < fenn> "we wrote the 4os operating system and made various all Forth chip and all Forth software web browser and email appliances. After developing products that everyone liked iTV's Board of Directors decided that they didn't want to sell anything and the company was shut down."
13:57 < fenn> http://web.archive.org/web/19990423061233/http://www.itvc.com/Technology/i21.html
13:59 < fenn> "1996 Draper Fisher Jurvetson investment announced." huh
14:01 < fenn> holy crap "A complete Internet system (OS, live Forth system, network stack, flash file system, GIF and JPEG decoder, fonts, network support applications, email and browser customer applications) requires less than 1/2 megabyte of program memory. With boot compression (comes standard, takes about 1 second) that system fits in a 128Kbyte ROM."
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14:04 < Naish411> paperbot: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v509/n7499/full/509166a.html
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14:12 < fenn> "Forth is a semantic language where the syntax is just words with spaces between them and the meaning is the defintion of the words. The words are like LEGO blocks, they snap together or pull apart to facilitate experimentation."
14:20 < QuantumG> I hate those non-semantic languages
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14:20 < fenn> the Novix NC4000 chip had only 4000 gates and ran 40MIPS (forth instructions) at 8 MHz
14:20 < fenn> QuantumG: there is no syntax, i cut and pasted because the author is a bit long-winded
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14:37 < kanzure> "okad could only be used to design chuck moore's tiny forth chips" is hilarious riticism
14:37 < kanzure> *criticism
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14:39 < kanzure> fenn: what was his justification for being arbitrator of all things in his stack? it's a nice idea, just not sure how he convinced anyone to let him do that
14:39 < kanzure> or maybe just gave everyone the finger
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14:40 < fenn> a $100 web browsing computer built into a mouse was pretty impressive for 1996
14:40 < fenn> you hooked it up to a tv's video in (and a modem, presumably)
14:41 < kanzure> yes but this means he invented webtv
14:41 < kanzure> and therefore is the spawn of satan
14:41 < fenn> kanzure: i'm not sure what the problem is with letting your programmer define his environment? it's basically like scheme, where you bootstrap yourself from a minimal syntax (in the case of forth, a minimal set of words)
14:42 < fenn> it is possible to paint yourself into a corner
14:42 < kanzure> well, most people aren't inclined to have a single person design the chip and the stack and the web browser
14:42 < kanzure> because they believe in "team work"
14:42 < fenn> of course
14:42 < kanzure> and patents
14:42 < fenn> see java, c++, total quality management, etc
14:43 < fenn> actually i have no idea what tqm is, but it sounds like butt-hurt
14:43 < kanzure> oh, he created forth. well maybe that's enough sayso.
14:43 < fenn> yes and then he "created" a zillion other *-forths
14:44 < fenn> i'm of the persuasion that humanity discovered math, jmc discovered lisp, moore discovered forth
14:44 < kanzure> and he founded the company. okay, so that's why.
14:44 < fenn> i dont know what a company has to do with it?
14:45 < kanzure> i was wondering why the company had let him design the chip, the cad to design the chip, and the rest of the software stack, and also give him time to implement it
14:45 < kanzure> but it's the other way around; he created the company, so he got to decide what he wanted to do
14:45 < fenn> because, I AM THE LAW!!!
14:46 < kanzure> are there asic fabs that do previous-previous-previous generation fabrication?
14:46 < kanzure> or are you beholden to whatever the latest industrial byproduct is
14:46 < QuantumG> tqm = actually writing down what you're doing, you'd love it.
14:46 < kanzure> like all fads, i'm sure there's a definition that sounds good, and then nobody that follows it
14:47 < QuantumG> people who dislike TQM are almost always of the persuasion that thinks keeping how they do their job secret is the best way to maintain their job.
14:48 < fenn> aside from being "over 9000" what is ISO 9001?
14:48 < fenn> my eyes just glaze over whenever i read anything about it
14:48 < kanzure> .wik iso 9001
14:48 < yoleaux> "ISO 9000 is a series of standards, developed and published by the International Organization for Standardization (ISO), that define, establish, and maintain an effective quality assurance system for manufacturing and service industries. The standards are available through national standards bodies." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_9001
14:49 < kanzure> in other words, documentation that you don't have
14:49 < fenn> it's based on TQM
14:50 < QuantumG> yeah.. the short version is: document how you make your product, what everyone's job is, how long they take, who was working what days, etc, and if there's a defect found, do root cause analysis.
14:50 < kanzure> do you have access to iso docs?
14:51 < fenn> does this mean i can access their "document how they make their product" or is it just for internal use?
14:51 < QuantumG> I don't think so, I could check.. but I read ISO 9001 and some others many years ago.
14:51 < QuantumG> fenn: internal use.. although I imagine it'd come out in a court case :)
14:52 < fenn> so is coca cola ISO 9001 compliant?
14:52 < QuantumG> almost certainly
14:52 < fenn> even though their recipe is secret
14:52 < kanzure> i think all enterprises go for iso 9001 compliance at this point
14:53 < QuantumG> heh, you actually think Coke's recipe is secret?
14:53 < QuantumG> do you think the KFC recipe is locked in vault and the people who know it aren't allowed to fly together too?
14:53 < fenn> so i've been led to believe
14:54 < fenn> but you're saying there's actually some official binder that the ISO 9001 auditor can read?
14:55 < QuantumG> Coca Cola's recipe is: sell sugared water by telling people it's freedom.
14:55 < fenn> no argument there
14:56 < fenn> i read some "hacker soda" that had a long list of essential oils like lime oil and clove oil and orange oil
14:57 < xmj> 'hacker soda' sounds like club mate
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14:57 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenCola_(drink)
14:58 < fenn> "2.36 kg plain granulated white table sugar, 2.28 L water" that's more sugar than water!
14:59 < fenn> oh that's the concentrate
14:59 < QuantumG> Pepsi started marketing a caffeinated Mountain Dew in Australia (and Canada) around the same time I stopped drinking sugared drinks. Whatever bonehead in marketing convinced them to go caffeine free outside the US has probably cost them millions.
15:00 < fenn> uh, what's the point if it has no caffeine
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15:00 < fenn> "look, it's yellow and tastes like crap!"
15:01 < QuantumG> I know right.. if I want a caffeine free soda I'll drink Sprite Zero (with vodka)
15:02 < fenn> grape juice and seltzer
15:03 < fenn> seems like a balanced electrolyte solution with the correct amount of sugar would not be a bad idea
15:03 < fenn> glucose that is
15:03 < fenn> just don't water your plants with it
15:06 < fenn> here's to hoping that ubuntu sticks to making free software distributions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_Cola
15:07 < QuantumG> 1. someone sends you an email saying they've completed some work you need to do a task 2. you email them and tell them that they seem to have screwed something up 3. they fix it, but don't reply to your email to tell you 4. you murder them with an axe. Would any court convict?
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15:08 < fenn> "El Ché-Cola Company, which donates 50% of its net profits to NGOs that fight against world hunger." named after Che Guevara
15:10 < fenn> "Mecca-Cola is marketed as an alternative to U.S. brands such as Coca-Cola and Pepsi-Cola to "pro-Muslim" consumers."
15:10 < fenn> they totally ripped off the coca cola logo, i'm surprised they haven't been sued to oblivion
15:11 < QuantumG> it's probably Coke in disguise
15:11 < fenn> that would be perfect
15:11 < kanzure> freedom isn't pro-muslim people?
15:11 < fenn> not when "freedom" is defined as "good old fashioned american values" and "santa claus"
15:12 < kanzure> can i convince you to do python-brlcad things
15:12 < QuantumG> and beach parties, don't forget beach parties
15:12 < kanzure> think of all the terrible gundams you could be designing
15:12 < fenn> you don't need to convince me
15:12 < fenn> i have to clear off my virtual desktop
15:12 < kanzure> http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2013/105/8/e/what_if_i_told_you_by_heroforpain-d61vzyl.jpg
15:13 < kanzure> bbl
15:14 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/irc/ram_full_htop_screenshot.png
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15:16 < fenn> i dont get why i have so many chrome processes open, all my tabs have been killed
15:16 < QuantumG> it's probably process pooling
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15:18 < fenn> view from the other side of the fence http://fennetic.net/irc/chrome_task_manager.png
15:20 < eudoxia> who uses tineye anymore now that google does reverse image search
15:20 < fenn> me?
15:21 < eudoxia> i thought maybe you hadn't heard since you were dead for two years or something
15:21 < fenn> google is much better but i often don't want to go into chrome just so i can use google's image search (it doesn't let you do image search without javascript)
15:22 < eudoxia> ah, right, dillo
15:23 < fenn> sometimes i wonder if the standard interface actually works for most people or if they're just not doing very much
15:23 < fenn> by "standard" i mean a big desktop computer running windows whatever and 16GB of ram
15:24 < eudoxia> google's tools have become a little web 2.0 for me. if you type or click on the wrong part of the search results by accident the whole thing clears and it's like auughhhhhhh
15:24 < fenn> yeah i can't figure out whether the image is part of the query or not
15:25 < QuantumG> 1. google for X 2. discover it's called Y 3. start typing Y into the search box -> the search automatically changes while you're typing hiding what you were reading.
15:26 < fenn> i'd love to have some tooltip thingy that you can just right click->get info and a little bubble with thumbnails and context pops up
15:27 < eudoxia> startpage is rather nice
15:27 < fenn> instead of "here's fifty images that look exactly alike and some urls we've truncated"
15:29 < fenn> can you do search by image with startpage?
15:29 < eudoxia> doesn't seem that way
15:30 < fenn> personally i don't give a shit about "tracking"
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15:30 < fenn> but using services like this gives you a false sense of security
15:31 < fenn> https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/01/tracking-by-user-agent
15:32 < fenn> https://panopticlick.eff.org/index.php?action=log
15:32 < eudoxia> i wonder if there's a list of most common user agents
15:33 < justanotheruser> eudoxia: 1st place is probably the Tor Firefox bundle
15:33 < fenn> "Your browser fingerprint appears to be unique among the 4,117,834 tested so far." (for chrome)
15:34 < fenn> nevermind IP, cookie attacks, web beacons, usernames, writing analysis, and so on
15:37 < QuantumG> irc logs
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16:02 < jrayhawk> google image search works fine without javascript
16:14 < eudoxia> reverse search
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16:53 < dingo> i got greetz'd in an artpack :-) http://www.asciiarena.com/info_release.php?filename=aW1wLW5oLnR4dA==
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17:48 < QuantumG> the early 1990s called, they want their propz back
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18:00 < jrayhawk> the ANSI charset would just confuse the artpack community back then
18:00 < jrayhawk> honestly, a macron overline? what the hell is that shit?
18:04 < fenn> is an "ansi charset" just a pixel font for a terminal?
18:06 < fenn> i don't understand why it's all images
18:09 < QuantumG> You mean, why that website renders it for you?
18:10 < jrayhawk> ASCII had a standard pixel font, I don't think ANSI ever did.
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18:16 < fenn> i knew that sounded familiar http://fennetic.net/irc/charlotte_gainsbourg_IRM.mp3
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18:35 < fenn> forth would be so much better if it were just lowercase
18:37 < QuantumG> have ya discovered color forth yet?
18:37 < fenn> i'm not sure about the whole idea
18:38 < fenn> i guess you could say "everyone uses syntax coloring anyway so why not just use color for syntax the way python uses whitespace for block delimiters" but i'm sure these arguments have been hashed over and over on usenet before i was born
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18:39 < QuantumG> check more crazy into forth, amiright?
18:39 < fenn> i dunno i mean the brain only has so many input channels, might as well make use of them
18:40 < fenn> the big problem seems to be bit rot? like i'm finding code last updated in 1992
18:40 < QuantumG> this shit is hilarious: http://www.colorforth.com/1percent.html
18:41 < fenn> oh i believe it, there have been similar essays about lisp vs c
18:41 < QuantumG> it's like Poe's law on steroids
18:41 < fenn> .wik poe's law
18:41 < yoleaux> "Poe's law, named after its author Nathan Poe, is an Internet adage reflecting the idea that without a clear indication of the author's intent, it is difficult or impossible to tell the difference between an expression of sincere extremism and a parody of extremism." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law
18:42 < QuantumG> "There are no errors that can be detected." is the funniest sentence in there.
18:42 < fenn> he is serious
18:42 < QuantumG> yeah, but if you were trying to write a parody, you couldn't do better.
18:42 < fenn> since there is no syntax, there are no errors that can be detected by the compiler
18:43 < fenn> everything compiles
18:43 < fenn> it just probably doesn't do what you want the first time
18:43 < fenn> this is considered a bad thing by haskell people
18:43 < fenn> do you like "bondage and discipline" or "freedom"?
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18:45 < QuantumG> do you, like, find employment?
18:45 < fenn> please rephrase the question
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18:46 < fenn> "can you get hired at a java shop?"
18:46 < QuantumG> your concerns never seem to be about practical things.. like working with other humans.
18:46 < fenn> probably because i hate most people
18:46 < QuantumG> I could ask this another way.. how do you feel about Perl?
18:47 < fenn> perl reminds me of digging through a scrap heap
18:47 < fenn> there's probably something good in there, but you have to plough through all the garbage in the way to find it
18:47 < QuantumG> right.. well, Forth is like that, but it's an alien scrap heap
18:47 < fenn> yeah :(
18:48 < kanzure> fenn stopped me from writing more perl
18:48 < kanzure> although i think i knew it was about time anyway
18:48 < QuantumG> Perl is your write-once language.. Forth is your I'd-write-once-if-I-was-crazy language.
18:48 < fenn> perl got me to learn regular expressions and vim, so it wasn't a total waste
18:49 < fenn> perl isn't write-once it's just kinda amateurish
18:49 < QuantumG> hmm.. write-only.. I knew what I meant anyway.
18:49 < QuantumG> write-once is considered the extreme alternative to Perl that I don't subscribe to either.
18:50 < fenn> this is not too hard to understand ftp://ftp.taygeta.com/pub/Forth/Applications/99beers.f
18:50 < eudoxia> lisp is "write once then go back to hiding under your blankie pretending someone else will read it"
18:53 < fenn> 1 ?: BOTTLE(S)  BOTTLE  BOTTLES
18:53 < fenn> i mean you don't even have to know forth to figure out how that works
18:55 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MxGtH-2duM
18:55 < yoleaux> JAPANESE SPIDER-MAN TRAILER - MARVEL.COM
18:56 < fenn> can people print out moth robots yet
18:57 < kanzure> you can capture moths and stick thumbtacks in them
18:57 < kanzure> i mean thumbtack microcontrollers
18:57 < fenn> you're thinking of the cyborg beetle
18:57 < fenn> .wik cyborg beetle
18:57 < yoleaux> "A cyborg, short for "cybernetic organism", is a being with both organic and biomechatronic parts. See for example biomaterials, bionics and biomechatronics. The term was coined in 1960 by Manfred Clynes and Nathan S. Kline. D." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyborg
18:57 < fenn> hm
18:59 < cluckj> beetleborgs?
18:59 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPX-FX0KStE
18:59 < yoleaux> 'Japanese Spider-Man' - Intro
18:59 < kanzure> so in japanese spiderman, he rides a motorcycle and controls a giant mecha and has a japanese martial arts style
18:59 < kanzure> also he carries an automatic gun because why not?
19:00 < fenn> well this is a not too bad article http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~robins/Cyborg_Beetles.pdf
19:01 < kanzure> subtitles on this one are pretty funny:
19:01 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cpzvap_y6CI
19:01 < yoleaux> Spiderman 1978 Pilot Episode
19:01 < kanzure> "wow there is a giant robot why is there a giant robot? how could marvel ever agree to something like this?
19:02 < kanzure> too bad this isn't starring bruce lee. hrm.
19:04 < catern> spaidaman
19:05 < fenn> .title http://www.biotele.com/robomoth.html
19:05 < yoleaux> Pentagon plans cyber-insect army
19:06 < fenn> much more scalable than hand wiring each bug
19:06 < fenn> omg a buttered cat-toast device
19:06 < fenn> "Attach a bomb to a cat and drop it from a dive-bomber on to Nazi ships. The cat, hating water, will "wrangle" itself on to enemy ship's deck."
19:07 < fenn> kamikazekat
19:07 < kanzure> these people seem to know what roshi is for: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7732696
19:07 < eudoxia> kamicate
19:07 < fenn> Syringes later placed on dolphin flippers to inject carbon dioxide into divers, who explode. US Navy has always denied using mammals to harm humans
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19:08 < kanzure> this guy was head of us navy animal ops for a few decades: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/orca-2014/bailey/
19:09 < kanzure> "Then I was hired along as a US Navy dolphin project. I met the Brelands. Bailey joined ABE in 1965. keller Breland died in 1965. Our objective, our objective was to combine animal training with evolutionary biology, whatever you wish to call it, I joined in 1965."
19:10 < FourFire> fenn wtf wut?
19:10 < fenn> FourFire: from the last link i pasted
19:11 < kanzure> "these dolphins are property of the us navy. they were specially trained to serve as submarine torpedos. there is a special launch system designed by none other than temple grandin."
19:12 < fenn> jesus christ she gives aspies a bad name
19:12 < FourFire> ...
19:12 < fenn> "how to efficiently do horrible things"
19:12 < kanzure> what's wrong with efficiency
19:12 < fenn> it's wrong when you're doing horrible things with it
19:12 < kanzure> so let's be horribly inefficient instead?
19:12 < FourFire> temple grandin: devising dolphin torpedo tubes
19:13 < kanzure> FourFire: no, he's referring to the 1 million cows slaughtered per day
19:13 < QuantumG> this is just more evidence that dolphins are useless
19:13 < fenn> blowing up dolphins who think you're their friend is pretty bad too
19:13 < FourFire> yeah, well everyone who eats beef has to agree that efficiency and minimized suffering is net positive utility
19:13 < FourFire> and it really was about reducing suffering, with the economic incentive for deployment of these systems being increased efficiency
19:13 < QuantumG> no they don't
19:13 < kanzure> go back to lesswrong
19:14 < kanzure> you're terrible at this
19:14 < FourFire> kanzure, I know, but I'll keep accepting your encouraging advice ;)
19:14 < kanzure> while ignoring it.. let me guess, you're now going to rant about utility functions for the next week
19:15 < eudoxia> dolphins > dumb ass cows
19:15 < FourFire> but yeah weaponized dolphins, that's wrong
19:15 < FourFire> kanzure, uhh no I'd rather not, I get enough of that in the other channel
19:15 < QuantumG> everyone who eats beef has to agree that beef is delicious, otherwise they'd eat something else <- even that's a contentious argument
19:15 < fenn> you have to admit there's a difference between a dolphin with weapons and an unwitting suicide bomber dolphin
19:15 < kanzure> QuantumG: agreed that it is contentious
19:15 < FourFire> cheaper meh beef is better for them though, right?
19:16 < FourFire> (the ones who don't agree)
19:16 < QuantumG> better for what?
19:16 < kanzure> and who gets to decide better
19:17 < kanzure> or the spectrum, or whether or not it's a spectrum, and the methods of measurement
19:17  * kanzure glares at FourFire
19:17 < QuantumG> also racism
19:17 < kanzure> hm?
19:17 < QuantumG> why not
19:17  * FourFire waves cheerily back
19:18 < kanzure> well, by spectrum i mean better/worse spectrum- but there's many more variables going on here other than just "better for my argument"
19:18 < kanzure> sure, let's make models so simple that they don't do anything interesting
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19:19 < kanzure> QuantumG: on a related note, i am interested in whether you have an opinion on human cannibalism, and what the opinion is
19:19 < QuantumG> only if its voluntary
19:19 < QuantumG> consenting adults and all
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19:20 < kanzure> oh right, i guess there's a range of activity that might imply (human hunting, dead person no other food scenarios, consenting cannibalism), bleh nevermind
19:20 < fenn> "Ukrainian navy's dolphins based in Sevastopol switched sides to Russia"
19:21 < QuantumG> heh
19:21 < kanzure> i haven't heard anyone suggesting that there should be human hunting (for purposes of game food), but there's probably someone somewhere that wants that
19:21 < fenn> damn you ungrateful fish whores!
19:22 < fenn> it was teh caviar
19:22 < QuantumG> the most dangerous sport
19:22 < QuantumG> eat what you catch
19:22 < kanzure> i feel like that was a movie
19:22 < kanzure> had lots of terrible one liners
19:22 < eudoxia> i think it was an episode of the simpsons
19:22 < fenn> .g the metamorphosis of prime intellect
19:22 < yoleaux> http://localroger.com/prime-intellect/
19:22 < QuantumG> heh
19:22 < kanzure> captain freedom was in it
19:23 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LazUZz3K6IY
19:23 < yoleaux> Captain Freedom's Workout Commercial
19:24 < fenn> bloodsport, predator, running man, jeez there's a whole list here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_hunting
19:24 < fenn> Slave Girls from Beyond Infinity is a 1987 film that transports “The Most Dangerous Game” to an alien world and populates it with bikini-clad space prison escapees and weird space monsters.
19:25 < kanzure> also there was an anime about this, with the black black club
19:28 < fenn> "The killer originated the name "Zodiac" in a series of taunting letters sent to the local Bay Area press. These letters included four cryptograms (or ciphers). Of the four cryptograms sent, only one has been definitively solved."
19:28 < fenn> man this should be like crypto 101 introduction to cryptanalysis project
19:34 < QuantumG> is metagenomics actually good for anything?
19:35 < fenn> studying things you can't culture easily
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19:36 < QuantumG> fair enough
19:37 < fenn> so i dunno if you can grow Thermus aquaticus on LB agar
19:38 < fenn>  it is sometimes found living jointly with its neighbors, obtaining energy for growth from their photosynthesis.
19:39 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=5c802ae7 Bryan Bishop: heuristics about failing fast >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/projects/heuristics/
19:39 < fenn> "Researchers working in National Parks are now required to sign "benefits sharing" agreements that would send a portion of later profits back to the Park Service."
19:39 < fenn> becuase the National Parks invented the universe
19:40 < kanzure> "and this is the national park of outer space"
19:41 < fenn> uh, it's not too far off: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Space_Treaty
19:42 < kanzure> good thing i do not respect that treaty (i am a martian native, you see, and i have come here to setup the martian embassy on earth)
19:42 < fenn> " common heritage of humankind or common heritage principle) is a principle of international law which holds that defined territorial areas and elements of humanity's common heritage (cultural and natural) should be held in trust for future generations and be protected from exploitation by individual nation states or corporations."
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19:43 < kanzure> ah, only nation states and corporations
19:43 < kanzure> so individuals are free to do whatever
19:43 < fenn> that's my reading of it
19:43 < kanzure> :stamp of approval:
19:43 < fenn> corporations and nations are hereby confined to planet earth
19:43 < fenn> done and done
19:43 < kanzure> you should fix http://diyhpl.us/wiki/projects/heuristics
19:44 < QuantumG> I once saw a particularly large and strange bug at a 7/11, never saw one like it again, asked a few entomologists about it and got blank looks.. concluded that it was an alien come to Earth to investigate franchise opportunities.
19:44 < kanzure> i'm certain that australia has lots of bugs that nobody has studied in great detail
19:44 < fenn> "their sugar production is of adequate efficiency"
19:44 < cluckj> earth slurpees are easy
19:45 < fenn> kanzure why dont you just ask for "the answer to life, the universe, and everything"
19:45 < kanzure> i already know that one
19:46 < kanzure> asking you to edit a wiki page is not too burdening
19:47 < QuantumG> people who worry that their wiki will get defaced have clearly never set up a wiki before.
19:47 < fenn> i'm supposed to be closing tabs, not opening new ones
19:48 < kanzure> you have the file locally anyway
19:48 < fenn> also these are hard questions
19:48 < kanzure> well someone has to write them down
19:48 < fenn> "number of bugs"? maybe you should ask steve rayhawk to write this
19:49 < kanzure> i did, and he told me to ask za3k
19:50 < fenn> i'm interested in the concept of cognitive load, but i don't know if i know enough in an abstract sense to write about it yet
19:50 < kanzure> cognitive impedance might belong on that page, maybe
19:50 < fenn> my gut feeling is that trying to calculate the "cost" in dollars is misguided at best
19:51 < kanzure> costs don't have to be dollars
19:51 < fenn> since the value (utility) of anything is completely subjective
19:51 < kanzure> there are inefficiencies that can add and multiply up
19:51 < kanzure> i would clearly fail to build a dyson sphere today
19:51 < QuantumG> ya don't know if ya don't try
19:51 < kanzure> (i mean today-today, not "in general")
19:51 < fenn> how much does a dyson sphere cost? what's it worth?
19:52 < kanzure> well, there's a minimum energy cost to deploying a dyson sphere i think
19:52 < kanzure> it doesn't just poof into existence: the material has to come from somewhere
19:52 < fenn> i saw donald trump's "selling the united states of america" and it was disappointing
19:52 < QuantumG> You're Fired
19:52 < kanzure> and i don't mean that you have to "pay" with "dollars", but you definitely have to hook up the right resource sinks and resource pumps
19:52 < fenn> he estimates the value of everything inside the US borders (excluding, notably, intellectual property)
19:53 < fenn> so the neat thing about a dyson sphere is it bootstraps
19:54 < fenn> the more solar panels you build, the more power you have to build the rest
19:54 < kanzure> power isn't the only input
19:54 < kanzure> and you're ignoring my point
19:55 < fenn> so you want a heuristic of manual vs automatization but want everything to be automated?
19:55 < kanzure> because i want a heuristic, i therefore want everything automated?
19:55 < fenn> if you want to build a dyson sphere, it's gonna have to be automated
19:55 < fenn> unless you have really strong arms
19:55 < kanzure> probably, but at some point i have to press a button or two
19:56 < kanzure> probably write some code
19:56 < kanzure> build some stuff
19:56 < kanzure> you know, the usual
19:56 < fenn> ok, hows this for a heuristic: code should be written manually, everything else should be automated
19:56 < fenn> the "don't repeat yourself" principle
19:56 < kanzure> everything everything?
19:56 < fenn> sure why not
19:57 < kanzure> well, it's certainly page-appropriate, but i'm not sure it's a good idea
19:57 < fenn> i mean people can still cook or garden as a hobby if they want
19:57 < fenn> nobody sews their own clothes from yarn they wove from flax they spun anymore
19:57 < kanzure> you mean like why_'s lungs growing into his shitty cpu and finally convincing his computer to do manual tasks for him, without moving, etc
19:57 < kanzure> there are in fact spinsters
19:57 < fenn> .d spinster
19:58 < kanzure> and even hipster spinsters
19:58 < yoleaux> spinster (/ˈspɪnstə/): n. An unmarried woman, typically an older woman beyond the usual age for marriage — http://is.gd/AoQEEQ
19:58 < kanzure> oh wait
19:58 < kanzure> hm that's wrong
19:58 < kanzure> they spin yarn
19:58 < fenn> nobody spins their own yarn
19:58 < kanzure> is my point
19:58 < kanzure> then how do you explain etsy
19:58 < fenn> it's a hobby
19:58 < kanzure> but also they make money from it
19:59 < fenn> unfortunately i've purged from my mind all the horrible things people do to make money
19:59 < kanzure> so, i can't think of many hardware projects (other than microchips?) where you don't actually have to do anything manually
19:59 < kanzure> i mean physical labor
20:00 < fenn> have you seen "how it's made"?
20:00 < kanzure> of course
20:00 < kanzure> there are often shots of non-automated stuff happening
20:00 < kanzure> and even some partially-automated factories where people are doing physical labor
20:00 < fenn> ok so the LEGO factory is 100% automated, plastic granules come in one side and boxes full of LEGO come out the other
20:00 < kanzure> in most cases, the people can be replaced by mechanisms once someone decides that's a reasonable business expense
20:00 < fenn> but then they have shit like antique boot spurs where the guy is cutting pieces of metal with a file
20:01 < fenn> there's no real difference in complexity
20:01 < fenn> i mean, the guy probably just likes using a file and invented a reason to justify his hobby
20:01 < kanzure> those are established factories, i'm talking about engineering projects, where you're building the factory, or the project, etc
20:02 < kanzure> if you go hang out with the industrial automation engineers, i bet they do tons of manual tasks when they're prototyping out the equipment that they'll eventually move to the factory floor
20:02 < fenn> aside from prototyping i don't see why this should ever happen
20:02 < QuantumG> I watched a movie last night from 2006.. no-one used a mobile phone, so it could have been made in the 1960s.
20:02 < kanzure> fenn: because waiting for your lungs to interface with the cpu is yak shaving
20:02 < fenn> i don't get that reference
20:03 < fenn> some kind of brain implant argument?
20:03 < kanzure> yes you do..
20:03 < fenn> didn't why_ commit "info suicide"?
20:03 < fenn> i don't understand that either
20:03 < fenn> basing your arguments on hypothetical actions of a crazy person is a bad argument
20:04 < QuantumG> "Yak shaving is what you are doing when you're doing some stupid, fiddly little task that bears no obvious relationship to what you're supposed to be working on, but yet a chain of twelve causal relations links what you're doing to the original meta-task."  Carlin J. Vieri, a Ph.D. at MIT back in the 90s.
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20:04 < kanzure> "And you know (you’ve got to know!) that this is going to turn into an obsession. First, you’ll completely forget to take the dog out. It’ll be standing by the screen door, darting its head about, as your eyes devour the code, as your fingers slip messages to the computer."
20:05 < kanzure> "Thanks to your neglect, things will start to break. Your mounds of printed sheets of code will cover up your air vents. Your furnace will choke. The trash will pile-up: take-out boxes you hurriedly ordered in, junk mail you couldn’t care to dispose of. Your own uncleanliness will pollute the air. Moss will infest the rafters, the water will clog, animals will let themselves in, trees will come up through the foundations."
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20:05 < kanzure> "But your computer will be well-cared for. And you, Smotchkkiss, will have nourished it with your knowledge. In the eons you will have spent with your machine, you will have become part-CPU. And it will have become part-flesh. Your arms will flow directly into its ports. Your eyes will accept the video directly from DVI-24 pin. Your lungs will sit just above the processor, cooling it."
20:05 < kanzure> "And just as the room is ready to force itself shut upon you, just as all the overgrowth swallows you and your machine, you will finish your script. You and the machine together will run this latest Ruby script, the product of your obsession."
20:05 < kanzure> "And the script will fire up chainsaws to trim the trees, hearths to warm and regulate the house. Builder nanites will rush from your script, reconstructing your quarters, retiling, renovating, chroming, polishing, disinfecting."
20:05 < kanzure> "Mighty androids will force your crumbling house into firm, rigid architecture. Great pillars will rise, statues chiseled. You will have dominion over this palatial estate and over the encompassing mountains and islands of your stronghold."
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20:05 < kanzure> "And so was born the Second Law of the Civilized Worlds, which was that Man could not stare too long at the faces of the Computer or her children, and still remain as Man."
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20:06 < fenn> .wik childhood's end
20:06 < yoleaux> "Childhood's End is a 1953 science fiction novel by the British author Arthur C. Clarke. The story follows the peaceful alien invasion of Earth by the mysterious Overlords, whose arrival begins decades of apparent utopia under indirect alien rule, at the cost of human identity and culture." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childhood%27s_End
20:07 < kanzure> oh not not my human identity.. what an asshole.
20:08 < kanzure> fenn: would you agree that there is sometimes an initial amount of repetition before you have an opportunity to (or even a clue as to how to efficiently) not repeat yourself
20:08 < QuantumG> Childhood's End is Arthur C. Clarke's fantasy that humanity become pets.
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20:08 < kanzure> that sounds like a boring scifi story
20:09 < kanzure> where's my "riding maser beams across the sky" and my "light cone computational field" shit.. blah.
20:09 < fenn> QuantumG: no, it was the adults that became pets. the children became some higher power
20:10 < fenn> clarke was too vague about the details
20:10 < kanzure> waiting for hardware to happen to you is a bad plan
20:10 < fenn> the "overlords" showed up to keep the children from blowing up the planet in an infant rage
20:11 < kanzure> it's practically the same plan as the rest of the transhumanists
20:11 < fenn> anyway there's probably some science fiction law preceding "the Second Law of the Civilized Worlds"
20:12 < kanzure> yes zindell undoubtedly took that from somewhere, and if nowhere obvious then probably the amish
20:12 < fenn> fucking info suicide, wtf is that shit
20:12 < kanzure> the rest was written by that ruby programmer, why_
20:12 < QuantumG> yeah, nuclear annihilation was fashion of misanthropy at the time, just as climate change is now. It's not exactly relevant. What is relevant is that he made it abundantly clear that he preferred servitude to overloads.
20:12 < fenn> how about info homicide
20:14 < fenn> "from A Requiem for Homo Sapiens, by Horthy Hosthoh
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20:17 < fenn> so is why_ arguing that automation is good or bad?
20:17 < kanzure> he was writing that for unrelated reasons
20:17 < kanzure> something about it helping you to learn ruby
20:18 < fenn> i'm looking at this thinking, if i'm integrated into a computer with nanites at my disposal, why do i need a house?
20:19 < kanzure> he's not claiming that learning ruby will cause you to create nanites
20:19 < kanzure> this should be on the wiki page..
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20:19 < fenn> i actually read that "guide to ruby" with the intent of learning ruby...
20:21 < kanzure> class str << def init(x) segfault end;
20:23 < kanzure> how is "don't repeat yourself hardware-style" going to work out for your "pick up and leave and recreate wherever i happen to be" strategy? seems counter-indicative.
20:24 < fenn> oh that's just object code
20:24 < kanzure> huh?
20:24 < fenn> the "stuff" is a compilation product
20:24 < kanzure> repeating is compiling it yourself again
20:24 < fenn> yes this is why we need a matter compiler
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20:25 < kanzure> yak shaving..
20:25 < fenn> not at all
20:25 < fenn> it's the whole point
20:25 < fenn> show me something better to work on
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20:26 < fenn> ok there's "not dying" that's a pretty high priority immediate need
20:26 < fenn> but i dont know how to make progress on that aside from the basics
20:26 < kanzure> i posit that it is possible to do things without a matter compiler
20:27 < fenn> it's also possible to spin yarn by hand and make an ugly frock
20:27 < fenn> .d frock
20:27 < yoleaux> frock (/frɒk/): n. 1. A woman’s or girl’s dress: her new party ⁓; 2. A loose outer garment, in particular; 3. The work and position of a priest: such words as these cost the preacher his ⁓ — http://is.gd/k1bC4e
20:28 < kanzure> yep
20:28 < fenn> monk stuff
20:28 < fenn> self-flagellation
20:28 < fenn> some people knit for fun
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20:29 < fenn> i'd like to know how to bootstrap from mud and sticks, but it's not a requirement for a matter compiler to run on dirt and sticks
20:29 < fenn> besides, sticks have a fair amount of processing done to them already
20:29 < fenn> dirt and sunlight
20:29 < fenn> ok
20:30 < fenn> p. aeruginosa can do quite a lot with that
20:30 < kanzure> the whole point was regarding repeating yourself, and now there's a matter compiler involved that doesn't exist or something..
20:31 < fenn> " hydrocarbon-using microorganism (or "HUM bug")"
20:31 < kanzure> this doesn't seem to explain the existence of any working technology whatsoever- if to do things required a matter compiler, why do we have particle colliders, space shuttles and a supercomputer in everyone's pocket?
20:31 < fenn> we don't
20:31 < fenn> because we don't have a matter compiler
20:31 < fenn> oh i thought you meant "a particle collider and a space shuttle in everyone's pocket"
20:31 < kanzure> i feel like you're ignoring the original questions, and instead injecting your santa clause machine wish list
20:32 < kanzure> i'm well aware of your wish list
20:32 < kanzure> perhaps the most aware
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20:32 < fenn> 1) santa claus machine 2) ???  3) relax
20:34 < fenn> i'm not sure i understand the principle of least power
20:35 < kanzure> it should be called a shenron machine instead of a santa claus machine
20:35 < kanzure> who name's this shit?
20:36 < fenn> people who dont watch kids anime
20:36 < kanzure> shenron is way cooler than santa claus
20:37 < kanzure> "kids, you better behave, because the giant terrifying dragon in the sky will not grant your wish otherwise"
20:38 < fenn> santa claus was much more scary in the old world versions
20:38 < QuantumG> and Futurama
20:38 < fenn> "kids you better behave or black pete will put you in his knapsack and force you to work in the arsenic mines"
20:38 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-50-139-11-6.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
20:38 < kanzure> that is acceptable
20:39 < QuantumG> equally naughty
20:39 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futurama_(New_York_World%27s_Fair)
20:40 < fenn> and somehow we ended up with an interstate highway system
20:47 < fenn> bucky fuller said "never build something if you can buy it"
20:48 < fenn> see how well that turned out
20:51 < fenn> this article makes the dolphin thing seem okay http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2609569/Could-American-Russian-combat-dolphins-clash-Black-Sea-Ukraine-crisis.html
20:52 < fenn> "Last year three of five spy dolphins went absent without leave in the Black Sea - apparently in search of love, but returned to their duties shortly afterwards."
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20:55 < QuantumG> well, that's a pain
20:56 < QuantumG> case sensitive login username.. Firefox keeps "fixing" the case
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21:09 < kanzure> finding out-of-map errors are a handy way of estimating when you've played a certain game too much
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21:15 < kanzure> fenn: you're aware that you're still ignoring my earlier statements, right?
21:16 < QuantumG> so, is "Schulz" pronounced with a t sound after the l or not?
21:16 < kanzure> depends on the family, you'll have to ask them
21:16 < QuantumG> heh
21:17 < kanzure> and sometimes even if there is a t, they keep it silent
21:18 < kanzure> fenn: you should write a tetris packer for moving and packing cars, where you estimate the size of each of your possessions to determine if there's a way to get everything in there
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21:29 < kanzure> i wonder if product recall announcements can be forged
21:39 < fenn> 3d nesting inventory is definitely on the project list
21:39 < fenn> the fish tub system works great except i have no source for new fish tubs
21:40 < kanzure> i don't think nesting inventory is what i said
21:41 < fenn> generic DC2115-12 industrial totes are the next best commodity
21:42 < fenn> what's the difference between nesting inventory and packing cars?
21:42 < kanzure> " I keenly felt the challenges of making APIs that "looked" like function calls to a programmer but took place across a network fabric and thus introduced error conditions that couldn't exist in locally called routines. (like the inability to return from the function due to a network partition for a simple example). Lamport's work in this space is brilliant and inspired. Network systems can be analysed and reasoned about as physical systems ...
21:43 < kanzure> ... when they exhibit discontinuities when considered as simple algorithms. The value here is to realize that a large number of physical systems tolerate a tremendous amount of randomness and continue to work as intended (windmills for example) while many algorithms only work consistently given a set of key invariants. I gave a talk that was inspired by Dr. Lamports work titled 'Java as Newtonian Physics' which was a call to action to create ...
21:43 < kanzure> ... a set of invariants, in the spirit of physical laws, that would govern the behavior and capabilities of distributed systems. It was way early for its time (AOL dialup connections were still a thing) but much of the same inspiration (presumably from Lamport) made it into the Google Spanner project."
21:45 < fenn> Spanner, a NewSQL distributed relational database by Google. It can distribute and store data in data centers across the world, provide consistency that is as excellent as in RDBMS while enabling to store an amount of data that exceeds the capacity of a single data center.
21:45 < kanzure> well the way you say it makes it sound boring
21:46 < kanzure> i mean spanner
21:46 < kanzure> (never heard of it)
21:46 < fenn> it does sound boring
21:46 < kanzure> sheena1: there are dolphin training things in the scrollback
21:50 < fenn> today i learned that ben franklin introduced tofu curry to the united states
21:51 < fenn> London, January 11, 1770
21:51 < fenn> “My ever dear Friend: I send Chinese Garavances. Cheese [is] made of them, in China, which so excited my curiosity. Some runnings of salt (I suppose runnet) is put into water, when the meal is in it, to turn to curds. These … are what the Tau-fu is made of.”
21:52 < ParahSailin> runnet?
21:52 < fenn> rennet
21:53 < ParahSailin> is that how they spelled rennet back then?
21:53 < fenn> people just spelled however they felt until 1600 something
21:54 < fenn> .ety rennet
21:54 < yoleaux> rennet (n.1): ""inner membrane of a calf's fourth stomach," c.1400, probably from an unrecorded Old English *rynet, related to gerennan "cause to run together," because it makes milk run or curdle; from Proto-Germanic *rannijanan, causative of *renwanan " …" — http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=rennet
21:55 < fenn> the chinese apparently forgot to tell the westerners that you're supposed to ferment the soybeans
21:55 < ParahSailin> not for tofu
21:56 < ParahSailin> the important piece they left out was that it is supposed to be vitriol of lime to make it curdle
21:56 < fenn> .d vitriol of lime
21:56 < yoleaux> Sorry, I couldn't find a definition for 'vitriol of lime'.
21:56 < fenn> me either
21:57 < ParahSailin> we call it gypsum now
21:57 < fenn> apparently magnesium chloride works too
21:57 < ParahSailin> yeah divalent cation is the magic trick
21:58 < fenn> oh vitriol is just sulfuric acid
21:59 < sheena1> kanzure: how far, who/
21:59 < fenn> it does look glassy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron(II)_sulfate
22:00 < fenn> sheena1: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/orca-2014/bailey/ http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2609569/Could-American-Russian-combat-dolphins-clash-Black-Sea-Ukraine-crisis.html
22:06 < fenn> does anyone have ferrous chloride laying around? want to verify that it is attracted to a magnet?
22:06 < fenn> er, ferric chloride solution
22:06 < ParahSailin> that doesnt seem likely
22:06 < fenn> supposedly it is paramagnetic
22:07 < fenn> and other iron sulfates and salts
22:07 < ParahSailin> i would think that you wouldnt notice it in solution
22:09 < fenn> oh wait, that's "1-butyl-3-methylimidazolium chloride and ferric chloride."
22:10 < ParahSailin> ionic liquids are cool
22:10 < fenn> yeah, i wash my dishes with them
22:11 < kanzure> sheena1: just that combat dolphin stuff
22:12 < fenn> Ferrofluid was invented in 1963 by NASA's Steve Papell as a liquid rocket fuel that could be drawn toward a pump inlet in a weightless environment by applying a magnetic field.
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22:19 < fenn> cool libgen works: http://lib.freescienceengineering.org/view.php?id=1101023
22:21 < kanzure> logs/2013-11-30.log:17:01 < kanzure> http://lib.freescienceengineering.org/
22:26 < kanzure> "Last week it was Russia, so now it is America's turn. As the U.S. Strategic Command reported earlier, the US will conduct Exercise Global Lightning 14 from May 12-16 in coordination with other combatant commands, services, and appropriate U.S. government agencies "to deter and detect strategic attacks against the U.S. and its allies.""
22:26 < kanzure> "exercise global lightning"
22:27 < kanzure> man, i gotta start naming my projects better. i should name each project after a classified military exercise.
22:28 < fenn> "the xanadu encyclical"
22:32 < fenn> that was a jeopardy question
22:33 < kanzure> if you can do something without a matter compiler, should it be done given a matter compiler does not presently exist
22:33 < kanzure> is there any conceivable reason to d oit
22:33 < kanzure> *to do it
22:33 < fenn> see previous comment on "not dying"
22:33 < kanzure> no
22:33 < fenn> also humans are irrational and positive feedback helps in keeping them sane
22:34 < kanzure> do you think that all effort to build anything is completely misguided, since they are not building a matter compiler
22:34 < fenn> um, possibly
22:34 < kanzure> what is the requirement for evidence to invalidate this?
22:35 < fenn> we still need to prototype designs so we know what to build with the compiler
22:35 < fenn> but arguably building the prototypes by hand is inefficient
22:35 < kanzure> for example, "if it was possible to do x without/with y, then this idea is invalidated"
22:35 < fenn> too many negatives in that question
22:36 < kanzure> my point is that if your idea isn't bounded by anything present in reality, it's just a symptom of depression
22:36 < fenn> oh but there are things that are getting close to matter compilers
22:36 < kanzure> that doesn't matter
22:36 < kanzure> i mean, in the context of my question to you
22:36 < fenn> huh?
22:37 < kanzure> i am trying to ask you things and you keep ignoring me
22:37 < fenn> so, i want a waterproof spring loaded pill dispenser
22:37 < kanzure> you're changing the subject
22:37 < fenn> not really
22:37 < fenn> alternative project, exhibit A: the pill dispenser
22:38 < kanzure> i am not talking about choosing between alternative projects
22:38 < fenn> we aren't?
22:38 < kanzure> not even close...
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22:39 < fenn> for the record i don't think i'm depressed
22:40 < fenn> i'm supposed to be sleeping now so i can wake up early and go tell my psychiatrist "thanks for listening to me yapp but this was all a big waste of time"
22:40 < kanzure> i see people building things all the time without matter compilers
22:40 < kanzure> your theory is too highly restraining
22:41 < kanzure> it doesn't account for this other existing activity
22:41 < fenn> yes it definitely smacks of logical excess in the way SIAI does
22:41 < kanzure> like i said, i'm well versed in shenron machine concepts
22:41 < kanzure> you don't need to explain them to me
22:42 < kanzure> and their definition hasn't been in question
22:42 < QuantumG> perhaps humans are shenron machines
22:43 < fenn> perhaps humans are just pig-monkey hybrids with an inflated sense of self-importance
22:43 < kanzure> yak shaving all the way to self-replicating von neumann builders is not healthy if it impedes all progress
22:43 < fenn> ok kanzure, what is "not yak shaving"
22:43 < kanzure> suppose you were building a pill dispenser
22:43 < QuantumG> do what you set out to do
22:44 < kanzure> building molecular nanotechnology first is yak shaving
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22:44 < kanzure> oh right, QuantumG answered the right question
22:44 < kanzure> while i answered the other one you didn't say
22:44 < fenn> i'm really confused
22:44 < fenn> i want a matter compiler
22:44 < kanzure> i know you do
22:44 < fenn> help!
22:45 < QuantumG> task = X, everything required to be done before you can do X is yak shaving.
22:45 < kanzure> it is possible for someone to want two things
22:45 < kanzure> QuantumG: more or less, yes- although there are often critical dependencies that i would argue could be called not yak shaving.. but close enough.
22:45 < QuantumG> I disagree.. if it's *not* critical then it's not yak shaving
22:46 < kanzure> what?
22:46 < kanzure> i would have expected you to say: "if it is *not* critical, then doing it is yak shaving"
22:46 < QuantumG> going and getting a milk shake is not yak shaving to setting up your web server, installing gcc may be.
22:47 < kanzure> if you are building a pill dispenser, and you decide that you have to invent molecular nanotechnology first, what is that
22:47 < QuantumG> wrong
22:47 < fenn> i never said anything about molecular nanotechnology
22:47 < jrayhawk> going galt
22:47 < kanzure> i am using shorthand, shoo
22:47 < QuantumG> at best, I'd say it's a parody of yak shaving.
22:48 < fenn> ok well at least i need a cad program or my pill dispenser will be fugly
22:48 < jrayhawk> there should be a better term for that than yak shaving, yeah
22:48 < kanzure> graph theoretical path noise
22:48 < kanzure> dependency junk
22:48 < QuantumG> going a buying a hammer so you can hang a picture with a nail is yak shaving.. inventing a better hammer is at best a parody.
22:49 < jrayhawk> "if you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe" carl saganing
22:49 < kanzure> if you want to make an apple pie from scratch [within some defined bounds], everything within those bounds are fair game
22:49 < kanzure> i am not sure why buying a hammer is yak shaving
22:49 < QuantumG> cause you can't hang the picture without one?
22:50 < jrayhawk> "overarchitecting" or "overengineering" maybe
22:50 < fenn> "i didn't invent the universe, i just live in it"  um, something i just read, possibly stanislaw lem
22:50 < kanzure> it was zindell
22:50 < kanzure> well, he stole everything, so nevermind
22:50 < jrayhawk> everyone stole everything
22:51 < kanzure> QuantumG: yak shaving is usually used to refer to things that are unnecessary
22:51 < QuantumG> no it isn't
22:51 < jrayhawk> no,
22:51 < kanzure> your 12-step causal process loses cohesion the further out you go
22:51 < jrayhawk> it's used to refer to things that LOOK unnecessary
22:51 < QuantumG> yak shaving is doing all the stuff you have to do before you can do the task you were assigned.
22:51 < kanzure> well that's fucked up
22:52 < QuantumG> it's a pretty simple concept.. the *joke* is that you can imagine really convoluted preconditions
22:52 < QuantumG> or get sidetracked doing stuff you think is necessary but really you could do without.
22:52 < kanzure> see, i always thought thta, in general, the deeper you go or more distant you go from your original goal, the more each causal decision has a certain amount of error, where if you go infinitly far away, you're probably skipping out some other paths that are much shorter and more relevant to your original task
22:52 < kanzure> *that
22:52 < jrayhawk> http://projects.csail.mit.edu/gsb/old-archive/gsb-archive/gsb2000-02-11.html
22:52 < QuantumG> and often that yak shaving, in that parody of the term, is a great way to procrastinate
22:53 < kanzure> yeah, i don't get the joke, because i often really am at a yak shaving task depth of 100
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22:53 < kanzure> how is that funny, it's just fucked up
22:53 < kanzure> "or get sidetracked doing stuff you think is necessary but really you could do without." aka "22:51 < kanzure> QuantumG: yak shaving is usually used to refer to things that are unnecessary" and "22:51 < QuantumG> no it isn't"
22:53 < QuantumG> you never really appreciated Fucked Company did ya?
22:54 < QuantumG> my friends who work at Google describe their job as yak shaving.. because all they do is develop the "infrastructure" that is supposed to change the world.. someday.
22:55 < fenn> yes google does a good job at pulling the wool off of free software
22:55 < kanzure> how about this, the more distant you are from the original task, the more likely your yak shaving decisions or dependency graph is going to lead to weak links and wrong necessity calculations
22:56 < QuantumG> I'd agree with that.. which is why you generally try to keep yak shaving to a minimum
22:56 < kanzure> do you think that to make a pill dispenser you need to first make a matter compiler
22:56 < fenn> that sounds like a heuristic you should put on your wiki page
22:57 < fenn> have i rambled about what "high tech" and "low tech" mean?
22:58 < kanzure> no
22:58 < fenn> ok in the context of air-dropping cargo onto brown people, there's this idea of "appropriate technology" where they see the whizbang million dollar matter compiler being used as a milking stand for goats
22:59 < fenn> appropriate technology means that the level of infrastructure required to build/use a tech is matched to the infrastructure present in the target situation
22:59 < QuantumG> there's a comment about Boost in here somewhere.
22:59 < fenn> so a hatchet is pretty low tech to use
23:00 < fenn> right, and Spanner is probably not what you need to store your personal address book
23:01 < fenn> in many cases it turns out that the infrastructure grows and your target populace can make new copies of the thing, so your efforts multiply
23:03 < fenn> something that is high tech has a large chain of dependencies
23:04 < fenn> what's interesting is that sometimes a new low technology is invented and can really change a lot of things, like for example superadobe
23:06 < fenn> sawyer hollow tube water filters are high tech to produce but can be used in any situation
23:06 < fenn> their utility approaches zero in a first world urban environment tho
23:06 < QuantumG> why do ya think that no "low technology" applications of electricity have taken off?
23:07 < QuantumG> no-one could be bothered taking a high technology concept like that and backporting it?
23:07 < fenn> like solar steam engines?
23:07 < fenn> it happens http://www.dekaresearch.com/stirling.shtml
23:08 < fenn> or the "baghdad battery" which was theoretically used for electroplating gold onto stuff 2000 years ago
23:08 < fenn> er, 4000 years ago (i guess)
23:09 < QuantumG> that's the ancients though..
23:09 < QuantumG> people still use hatchets.. no-one uses Lyden jars.
23:10 < QuantumG> err, Leyden jars
23:10 < fenn> electrowinning is pretty low tech, but it's in the context of some other high tech operation usually, because high tech things are more efficient/capable
23:10 < QuantumG> you might say, oh, we can make better things now.. but that doesn't jib with your earlier low-technology concept.
23:11 < fenn> i take that back, it's not always the case that high tech things are better
23:11 < fenn> the modern mcmansion for example is a piece of shit
23:11 < QuantumG> I say that the way people *think about* technology is more important than how technology really is.
23:12 < QuantumG> something is high tech because we think of it as high tech.. not because of the number of dependencies.
23:12 < fenn> meh
23:14 < fenn> it's not my fault everyone is clueless
23:14 < QuantumG> you can hold in your hands a hatchet that is made by a molecular manufacturing nanotech robot and still think of it as low tech.
23:14 < fenn> because it has no use dependencies
23:15 < QuantumG> and you can teach African tribesmen to make solar panels from mud and tree sap and still think of solar panels are high tech.
23:15 < fenn> uh.. i'd like to see that
23:15 < fenn> i really would
23:16 < fenn> btw take a penny and oxidize it black and it's a solar panel
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23:17 < fenn> have you heard of perovskite solar cells?
23:17 < QuantumG> nope
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23:18 < fenn> http://www.photonicsonline.com/doc/researchers-take-the-lead-out-of-easy-solar-cells-0001
23:19 < fenn> the lead kind are up to 18% efficiency?
23:19 < fenn> pretty good for mixing some salts and spreading them out and baking
23:19 < fenn> inorganic salts
23:22 < fenn> oh and they are lasers too
23:25 < fenn> http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2013/sep/30/ultrathin-solar-cell-is-efficient-and-easy-to-make
23:26 < fenn> .title http://youtube.com/watch?v=oQ2bz6jlbz0
23:26 < yoleaux> Perovskite solar cells made simply
23:26 < fenn> shows the actual fabrication process
23:31  * fenn sleepz
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--- Log closed Tue May 13 00:00:03 2014