--- Log opened Tue Sep 12 00:00:16 2017
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00:13 < fltrz> it seems they even said so themselves: "The United States Atomic Energy Commission chairman announced that the Plowshares project was intended to "highlight the peaceful applications of nuclear explosive devices and thereby create a climate of world opinion that is more favorable to weapons development and tests""
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00:19 < fltrz> anyway, CVE & "responsible disclosure" by-definition-equated to centralized vuln reporting is the same thing to cyber as PNE was to nuclear
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02:04 < fltrz> kanzure: did you see the recent documentary.. about the US colonel that was eventually arrested on bioterrorism charges?
02:05 < fltrz> there was this kid and he had started to bond with one of the bioweapons...
02:05 < fltrz> that situation totally got out of hand
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02:08 < fltrz> I guess you already know about that one though..
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02:20 < fltrz> it's called 'my pet dinosaur' :P
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02:29 < fltrz> http://prl.aps.org/abstract/PRL/v110/i16/e168702
02:30 < fltrz> .title
02:30 < yoleaux> Phys. Rev. Lett. 110, 168702 (2013) - Causal Entropic Forces
02:30 < fltrz> the entropica algorithm, takes the option that maximizes the future options
02:31 < fltrz> it passes a bunch of intelligence tests for animals (i.e. collaborating to retrieve an object only retrievable by working together)
02:32 < fltrz> now, the algorithm does assume knowledge of the number of options/moves from a given state/position
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02:36 < fltrz> so I was wondering, if we could train a very small NN to make the same/similar move to the entropica algorithm... and then perturb the good weights enough-but-not-too-much such that from the wrong weights and averaging over different inputs
02:36 < fltrz> so that we may be able to deduce the local to neuron weight update rule that approaches entropica
02:36 < fltrz> i.e. to make it self - learning by experience
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04:14 < kanzure> didn't know about it no
04:16 < kanzure> fltrz: bitcoin used to have an alert key but there are many problems with that concept. so i don't think your "open full disclosure" works.
04:17 < fltrz> there are certainly many problems
04:18 < fltrz> but I think they are less problematic than centralizing to a small group of decision makers who get to choose who's to be able to maintain a secure and who's to be unable to maintain a secure implementation
04:19 < kanzure> anyway yes you should centrally report the vulnerabilities to the bitcoin developers. they have an amazing track record of fixing and handling these problems.
04:19 < fltrz> (I was aware there used to be a hardcoded pub key of dev's in bitcon)
04:19 < fltrz> kanzure: I am talking about vuln disclosure in general, i.e. different currencies in competition
04:19 < fltrz> not even currencies alone
04:20 < fltrz> different softwares using the same crypto library
04:20 < kanzure> there are altcoins that are authored by downright malicious vendors... you can't seriously expect this to work out positively for users?
04:20 < fltrz> suppose different users of the library use statically compiled crypto lib
04:21 < fltrz> the issue of centralized "responsible disclosure" is much wider than cryptocurrencies alone
04:22 < fltrz> suppose someone finds a vuln in the crypto lib, so he goes and "responsibly discloses" to some supposed true representative maintainers
04:22 < fltrz> all the softwares that compiled the lib statically are fucked for a transition period
04:23 < fltrz> the fact that such a thing is so,.. is just that, the fact that it is so... better have programmed unavailability (possibly user overridable, but then he will be warned while doing so)
04:23 < fltrz> this way developers of all sw, that say rely on the crypto lib have time fix the problem
04:25 < fltrz> of course bitcoin has great team, its the oldest and biggest cryptocurrency, a lot of people have a stake in it so it better be, ... that does not make the current disclosure mechanism the safest one though
04:25 < kanzure> essentially the problem reduces to the good guys need to be more effective than the bad guys.
04:26 < fltrz> what I'm saying is historically the bad guys infiltrate the good guys
04:26 < kanzure> uhuh. when was djb infiltrated?
04:26 < fltrz> bitcoin is not djb
04:27 < kanzure> oh that solves everything
04:27 < fltrz> ?
04:28 < kanzure> you are spreading conspiracy theories about security researchers. please be careful.
04:28 < kanzure> brb
04:29 < fltrz> when some men make nets and sell them to fisher men, and when a bunch of fisherman agree a time and date to step on a boat, and when they then go and catch fish, was there a conspiracy to catch fish or what?
04:30 < fltrz> from their perspective its their job and duty
04:30 < fltrz> I'm not saying all the developers etc are infiltrants
04:32 < fltrz> exactly who should people disclose responsibly to? suppose I find a bug in bitcoin-derived-crypto X, and I responsibly disclose it to developers of X... but the same vuln was applicable to bitcoin... I admit its a concocted example, but if... would you want me to disclose the vuln to X or to bitcoin?
04:32 < fltrz> suppose I did not care to check if it worked for btc
04:33 < fltrz> "responsible disclosure" pre-assumes a universally established authority to disclose to
04:33 < fltrz> the fact that different people invest in different currencies is proof that such authority is not yet universally established
04:34 < fltrz> the most sane thing to do it seems, is to work in common interest, bug? => inform all! dangerous? => halt protocols
04:35 < fltrz> if it eliminates the 'paranoid' risk of CVE et al salvation-army-of-exploits, thats only a plus, feel free to call it marginally small, but it's not a negative
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05:00 < kanzure> "is proof that"... what? why would you expect investors to be good at security ?
05:04 < kanzure> "halt protocol" is itself a security problem
05:29 < andytoshi> maaku: no, i'm hanging out in KC entirely unrelatedly to harvey (though i did happen to escape it). it wasn't too bad in austin, just localized flooding i hear and my apt is well above the ground
05:29 < andytoshi> i'm here for 2 weeks as a trial run for a permanent move, which i haven't really decided on either way
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05:40 < kanzure> don't leave me
05:42 < andytoshi> well, so far i'm leaning toward not, this place is pretty cool but so is austin, and moving is quite a hassle
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06:41 < kanzure> andytoshi: i'm surprised to see so many people advocating for immediate release of knowledge of vulnerabilities O_O
06:49 < kanzure> "Numerous uncharacterized and highly divergent microbes which colonize humans are revealed by circulating cell-free DNA" http://www.pnas.org/content/114/36/9623.abstract
06:50 < andytoshi> kanzure: yeah, security work is frustrating in that most people necessarily have zero idea of what goes on
06:50 < kanzure> we're at the point where people are directly sending emails to linuxfoundation.org where they state they are outright malicious. that's what this thread is.
06:51 < andytoshi> jeez
06:51 < kanzure> "we should disclose to all the altcoin developers before deploying the fix!" <--- oooor you could choose to **not** arm everyone with sploits.
06:52 < andytoshi> it should die down soon enough. presumably anyone receiving these LF mails has enough sense to ignore it
06:58 < kanzure> hmm how to reconcile this with "deploy all the viruses!" in biologyland
07:01 < bluebear_> kanzure: some people simply want to see the world burn
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07:07 < kanzure> well, i mean, it's not particularly virtuous to prefer to have unstable insecure biology everywhere
07:08 < kanzure> and the deployment of easy cheap biotech tools might look like it directly contributes to mass extinction, but arguably not deploying as much would also be dangerous to a similar degree.
07:09 < cluckj> boop
07:10 < cluckj> or leaving those tools solely in the hands of potentially/usually bad actors (the state, corporations)
07:12 < kanzure> musics https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NL6TMup64ik&t=13m40s
07:12 < kanzure> https://www.lonelyspeck.com/the-milky-way-in-los-angeles-light-pollution/
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07:29 < andytoshi> bluebear_: i think in this case there is more a sense that people want to know things that might be important to them and really don't like the idea that knowledge would be kept secret from them for any reason
07:29 < andytoshi> and can't intuitively see how that could be dangerous or even harmful
07:29 < kanzure> 07:26 <+nsh> there's no complex ecology without predation
07:29 < kanzure> 07:27 <+nsh> part of being ethical is having the humility to perceive clearly the boundaries of what can be done
07:29 < kanzure> 07:27 <+nsh> and preventing exploitation cannot be done, generally or univerally
07:29 < kanzure> 07:27 <+nsh> *universally
07:29 < kanzure> from the perspective of my friends who care about questions like "is it okay to torture nsh for eternity in a simulation, if it improves the lives of a billion other people by a significant amount according to nsh",   it's entirely possible that predation is necessary evil  but you should at least have the decency to not default to the literally worst option all the time.
07:31 < cluckj> hah
07:31 < kanzure> 07:31 <+kanzure> i think there's a minimum amount of due diligence you must adhere to before you disclose/exploit.   you can't just default to "destroy anything weak".
07:31 < kanzure> 07:31 <+kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/futurism/Who%20steers%20who%20steers%3f%20A%20note%20on%20identifying%20vulnerable%20moral%20propensities.pdf
07:33 < bluebear_> maybe there is a technical difference between biology and hacking here...
07:33 < bluebear_> in biology, we probably really want to know as much as possible as fast as possible because missing knowledge directly translates to lost lives
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07:36 < andytoshi> irresponsibly disseminated knowlege can also translate to lost lives in biology. i'm not sure how big this difference is
07:37 < cluckj> I'm not sure that hacking is that much different in that respect, especially for biohackers doing work on medical devices
07:38 < kanzure> biology is already highly vulnerable and millions die from totally basic viruses
07:39 < andytoshi> i was excited by the hgp-write proposal to fuck with stop codons to decouple our dna from that of the viruses who evolved alongside us
07:39 < kanzure> https://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/hgp-write/2016-05-10/ultra-safe-cell-line/
07:39 < cluckj> sweet
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07:40  * nsh blinks
07:40 < nsh> decoupling ourselves from the things we co-evolved with sounds like a terrible idea
07:40 < andytoshi> you want the next year's one: https://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/hgp-write/2017-05-09/ultrasafe-cell-line/
07:40 < andytoshi> nsh: not things that are directly fucking with our dna
07:40 < nsh> how flawlessly do you think you can define fuckery vs. utility?
07:40 < nsh> i would be reticent
07:41 < kanzure> well let's start with the viruses that kill people....
07:41 < andytoshi> kanzure: well nsh's point about the stop-codon stuff is that it doesn't distinguish at all between viruses
07:41 < nsh> how flawlessly do you believe your focus on individual organisms represents what's important to population longevity? :)
07:41 < nsh> death is very very very essential to evolution
07:42 < nsh> it's probably the most essential part after life
07:42 < andytoshi> well, i don't think we have any more use for natural evolution in humans
07:42 < nsh> i think the converse :)
07:42 < andytoshi> we've got a small integer number of generations left before we'll be genetically engineering everybody
07:43 < andytoshi> really?
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07:43 < nsh> we've got a small integer number of generations left before we render ourselves extinct
07:43 < nsh> natural evolution may not have much of a need for us
07:44 < kanzure> huh?
07:44 < kanzure> if you want more random population genetics then you can do that with synthetic biology anyway
07:44 < nsh> cultural competency is lagging behind technological attainment considerably
07:44 < kanzure> 'herd immunity' is not necessarily eliminated by genome engineering kthx
07:44 < nsh> nature, to whatever extent it takes a view, does not take a very bright view of this
07:46 < andytoshi> i think you're being overly pessimistic. we've pretty-much conquered nature in a lot of domains even with crude tools like antibiotics and antiseptics
07:46 < andytoshi> and industrial food production and distribution
07:48 < nsh> it's hard to be optimistic about agricultural/industrial use of antibiotics andytoshi :)
07:48 < nsh> this is not an example of us winning
07:49 < nsh> but it is a great example of how we can never be 'done' with natural evolution as we are constantly driving it
07:50 < nsh> driving it soon towards deplenishment of our current stock of effective antibiotics, but there may be some puncture equilibrium that we get through and find another paradigm of microbiotic total war
07:50 < nsh> *punctured
07:50 < andytoshi> sure, because antibiotics are super crude and directly affects population levels, which is how natural evolution works
07:50  * nsh nods
07:50 < andytoshi> but if we could engineer new cows that just didn't get viruses, that's a whole different story
07:51 < nsh> when you think making a phenomenon disappear is a universal utility that's a good sign you are insufficiently modelling
07:51 < andytoshi> there was a Q&A on the above ultrasafe-cell-line link where somebody asked if the researchers thought the viruses could evolve around this kind of thing
07:51 < nsh> what other processes and dynamics depend on viral infections?
07:51 < nsh> what are the secondary and tertiary stressors of eliminating them in certain populations
07:51 < kanzure> nsh: if the viruses are important then you can make them endogenous
07:51 < nsh> people don't bother with these questions much because people are arrogant
07:51 < andytoshi> and the researches said they thought not because the change is so dramatic that there is no locally-beneficial series of mutations that could get around it
07:51 < kanzure> or if you don't like endogenous viruses then you can remove them http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/hgp-write/2016-05-10/transplantation/
07:53 < nsh> what is the complexity of the required knowledge technical knowledge of which compensatory interventions mollify the unexpected consequences of prior interventions is strictly increasing?
07:53 < nsh> what if we end up juggling so many interventions we build ourselves a tower of babel?
07:53 < andytoshi> i have no answer that you wouldn't call arrogance
07:54 < nsh> when you dredge up dynamics of unknown complexity into conscious and deliberate control you should have a good idea of whether you're landing a cod or a whale
07:54  * nsh neither :)
07:54 < andytoshi> :)
07:54 < nsh> we have asteroids at least
07:54 < nsh> a lot of things can be done in controlled experiments if we can render any of those into biomes
07:55 < nsh> but probably not much that translates directly to earth
07:55 < nsh> or maybe most of it does because the important stuff is microbiological
07:56 < nsh> otoh a lot of the important stuff happening on earth currently is memetic
07:56 < nsh> so it's hard to posit that there's a scale regime that the most relevant dynamics for robustness is contained
07:57 < nsh> probably informational, so transcending scale and physical substrate
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07:59 < nsh> anyway, i just wanted to argue the fragility for biology because i don't especially feel the urgent fragility of cryptographic ecology which inspired the discussion
07:59 < nsh> because irony is my currency
08:00 < nsh> fragility certainly is scale-dependent :)
08:00 < kanzure> well the target is to reduce mean times between failures and also not overpromise on the actual reliability or capabilities
08:01 < kanzure> uh.. increase.
08:01 < kanzure> whatever
08:02 < TMA> nsh: fragility is complexity-dependent. a homogenous heap of stuff is not fragile
08:02  * nsh nods
08:03 < andytoshi> nsh: so, one big difference between crypto and biology is that you can largely escape the influence of crypto
08:04 < nsh> currently at least
08:04 < andytoshi> i've had security meetings before where myself and some others would leave our phones somewhere, walk several blocks away with no electronics on our person, find somewhere with a lot of ambient noise, and talk
08:04 < andytoshi> maybe buy some drinks with paper cash, etc
08:05 < kanzure> .title http://extropians.weidai.com/extropians.3Q97/4356.html
08:05 < yoleaux> extropians: tunneling through the Singularity
08:05 < andytoshi> well, for a long time you'll be able to go buy some cabin in montana and write letters by post
08:05 < andytoshi> in fact this is getting cheaper, in real dollars :P
08:05 < nsh> your correspondence might be have too high latency to achieve anything relative to the pace of networked events
08:06 < kanzure> high latency should be more encouraged
08:06 < nsh> sure, the deleterious effects of news cycle foreshortening and general info-ADHD have been well-demonstrated
08:06 < nsh> there is a kind of race to the bottom of the instant
08:06 < nsh> and we have suffered for it
08:06 < andytoshi> well my point is that when the crypto bullshit seems too overwhelming and harmful you have the option to check out of it, even if that greatly hinders your productivity or ability to participate in your industry. but it _won't_ hinder your ability to feed or shelter yourself, or to have social contacts
08:07 < andytoshi> you can't do this with bio
08:07 < kanzure> "Singularity tunneling seems to require a technology that can defend its comparatively powerless users against extremely, perhaps even unimaginably, powerful adversaries. The bobble of course is one such technology, but it is not practical. The only realistic technology that I am aware of that is even close to meeting this requirement is cryptography. In particular, given some complexity ...
08:07 < nsh> well, to this effect it's pretty important to preserve a continuum of ways-of-living
08:07 < kanzure> ...theoretic assumptions it is possible to achieve exponential security in certain restricted security models."
08:07 < TMA> andytoshi: you can't with crypto either
08:07 < nsh> so that not everywhere you can be human is dependent on the current fancies and fashions of technology
08:07 < nsh> that's another thing being eroded at present
08:07 < TMA> andytoshi: as long as you interact with people, you are still interacting with crypto -- via a middleman
08:08 < andytoshi> TMA: i'm quite sure that's untrue
08:08 < andytoshi> unless you're saying that encoding thoughts in the form of mouth-sounds is a form of crypto or something
08:09 < TMA> andytoshi: if you interact with a person, that has a bank account/credit card (e.g. to buy some stuff from them) you are indirectly interacting with the crypto employed in that bank
08:10 < andytoshi> okay, well, that's not my problem though because if the bank screws up then they'll correct it (or a court will)
08:10 < andytoshi> and i can avoid it by using physical cash
08:10 < andytoshi> or liquor, or whatever works as currency
08:12 < nsh> +1 liquor
08:14 < TMA> andytoshi: the thing is: even very remote events affect you -- no matter how much you try, you will still be affected by some $event happening far away -- you can only reduce exposure, not eliminate it. if a hypothetical SHTF scenario happens, you might be somewhat sheltered
08:15 < TMA> andytoshi: but even if being forced to pay in liquor instead of greenbacks is the only result, it is still not no result
08:15 < kanzure> alright this has gone off the rails
08:16 < kanzure> TMA: don't break nsh when he is entamating/infoschlepping
08:18 < TMA> I make no attempt to break anybody. I promise to refrain from speaking here for 36000 seconds.
08:18 < kanzure> huh?
08:19 < nsh> refrain ye now :)
08:19 < nsh> *not
08:19 < nsh> is there a general theory of contingency hedging?
08:19 < nsh> beyond economics / investment
08:20 < nsh> i mean, how does a robot hedge for mechanical contingencies if it's ability to model and predict its environment is imperfect
08:20 < nsh> how does a plant hedge for chemical contingencies
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08:22 < kanzure> robust defense is a much more difficult problem than adversarial spazzing so... i would guess it's unlikely.
08:22 < kanzure> "contingency hedging" isn't that called engineering?
08:23 < kanzure> contigency hedging https://i.imgur.com/38ffOon.jpg
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08:48 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/allgebrah/status/907206719884972034
08:48 < yoleaux> truth be told, once inside cthulhu, you start cheering it on to eat the rest of humanity as well (@allgebrah)
08:49 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/allgebrah/status/907560616277286913
08:49 < yoleaux> There's an optimal speed in space battles and it's not quite c - time dilation needs to be low enough that you can still outthink the enemy (@allgebrah)
08:53 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/allgebrah/status/894554554016071680
08:53 < yoleaux> so basically, software forks are like blockchain forks but you get to doublespend 0days instead (@allgebrah)
09:07 < Urchin> if you're going into space battle on opposite direction orbits, you're already practicing mutual suicide
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09:08 < kanzure> well you don't fly around shooting each other, you just do strategy or whatever
09:09 < Urchin> read some rocketpunk stuff lately
09:10  * Urchin recommends The Human Reach series and Here Be Dragons
09:26 < kanzure> some bluetooth 0days http://go.armis.com/hubfs/BlueBorne%20Technical%20White%20Paper.pdf
09:38 < cluckj> nsh, massive and widespread reproduction
09:40 < cluckj> disseminate backup copies...everywhere
09:40 < cluckj> that strategy has proven fruitful thus far
09:40 < cluckj> and I will see myself out, because of that terrific pun
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11:42 < nsh> --
11:42 < nsh> A recently published article from the University of Utah presents a new filter developed by Electrical and Computer Engineering professor Rajesh Menon that drastically improves the light transmission efficiency compared to the traditional Bayer CFA.
11:42 < nsh> The filter is only about one micron thick and uses precisely designed ridges etched on one side to bend the light as it passes through creating a series of color patterns or codes. The software then reads the codes to determine what colors they are.
11:42 < nsh> Approximately 25 color codes are created as opposed to three, resulting in far more accurate renditions of color and nearly no noise.
11:42 < nsh> The filter is also cheaper to produce than the current Bayer filter.
11:42 < nsh> -- https://www.cinema5d.com/the-future-of-image-sensor-technology-beyond-the-bayer-cfa/
11:42 < nsh> -> https://unews.utah.edu/bright-idea-for-lowlight-photography/
11:43 < nmz787> kanzure did I tell you about this, learned of them at biohacktheplanet https://fourthievesvinegar.org/faq
11:43 < nmz787> they have a retrosynthesis database that they say they're going to open up
11:44 < nmz787> I can't remember if they have any machine learning based on the data... maybe
11:44 < nmz787> they were originally using some pro services for retrosynthesis, but then they were bought by another bigger company and the company wouldn't do biz anymore
11:44 < kanzure> 1EE6 351B F822 0B72 50A3 0099 4F6D 27BB 8655 073A
11:45 < kanzure> https://fourthievesvinegar.org/canary.txt
11:45 < nmz787> word
11:45 < kanzure> http://4thievzv3hh26qeh.onion/
11:45 < nmz787> main motivated dude has a PhD in Physics
11:46 < nmz787> theoretical
11:46 < kanzure> their downloads don't work https://fourthievesvinegar.org/download
11:46 < nmz787> :(
11:46 < nmz787> email them
11:46 < kanzure> except their epipencil thing but that's the least interesting
11:46 < nmz787> he was very open to collab
11:46 < kanzure> https://fourthievesvinegar.org/files/update.txt
11:47 < nmz787> apparently epipens had a recall because testing single-use devices is hard
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11:54 < kanzure> yeah i guess we should abduct/recruit them
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12:15 < kanzure> hawkmoth anti-bat ultrasound defenses http://www.pnas.org/content/112/20/6407.full.pdf
12:28 < kanzure> "Researchers investigated US Securities and Exchange Commission filings for 10 separate cancer medications, and found the median cost of drug development was US$648 million – not pocket change, sure, but a fraction of the $2.7 billion figure which pharmaceutical companies use to justify expensive medication pricing."
12:28 < kanzure> "Research and development spending to bring a single cancer drug to market and revenues after approval" http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2653012
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14:43 < fltrz> why do seahorses like q-tips?
14:43 < fltrz> https://images0.persgroep.net/rcs/lfeLlal466Rck0aYl_tIGVsUKYA/diocontent/111470892/_fit/1440/1080/?appId=f215d2ebdcdad4aa3dc78550c5970d02&quality=0.90&format=jpg
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16:01 < maaku> andytoshi: if you went to kansas I would have thought Lawrence is more your style
16:08 < andytoshi> well, most of kansas city is actually in MO
16:08 < andytoshi> i'll check lawrence out, it was not on my radar, thanks
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16:27 < andytoshi> maaku: so downtown KCMO from the "river market" to "westport" district has a _lot_ of stuff including weird artsy venues and a UMKC campus and a (crappy) climbing gym, and that span is roughly the maximum distance i can reasonably walk (plus there are several buses). it looks like lawrence is a bit too suburban, like i'd need to buy a car or else be restricted to a couple small neighborhoods.
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--- Log closed Wed Sep 13 00:00:16 2017