--- Log opened Sun Sep 13 00:00:17 2020
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01:14 < nmz787> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T39QHprz-x8
01:14 < saxo> The Story of Al Baydha:  A Regenerative Agriculture in the Saudi Desert.  قصة مشروع البيضاء - YouTube
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03:51 < TMA> nice. I still feel the main message is the very first sentence "in 1950s the indigenous land management system in the arabian peninsula, known as the himma, was abolished"
03:53 < TMA> basically it means that the system is not sustainable. because it collapses as soon as an idiot will be in charge, which is a certainity
03:57 < L29Ah> just like any other centralized management system?
03:57 < TMA> a system requiring intelligent oversight is not sustainable
03:59 < TMA> L29Ah: every system where humans are involved that depends on the humans to perform something AND refrain from performing something else has these characteristics
04:00 < TMA> (which means the "reduce human footprint" that was criticized at the end shares the same mode of failure)
04:05 < TMA> the Daleks got it right-ish. but then it would hinge on Daleks to perform and refrain from non-performing
04:06 < TMA> the universe (as a wish-fulfiling machine) is broken beyond repair
04:48 < juri_> hack all of the things.
04:49 < juri_> right now my great enemy i don't know what to do with is capitalism. I release my work AGPLv3, but.. when it comes to getting those with capital what they want, capitalism finds a way.
04:50 < L29Ah> i just love capitalism
04:50 < L29Ah> but i hate copyright so i release everything under AGPLv3 as the most restrictive of OSI-approved licenses
04:51 < L29Ah> or under WTFPL-2 when i feel like
04:51 < juri_> capitalism is like violence: when you have applied too much, you no longer have the problem you started with, but an assortment of other, worse problems.
04:52 < L29Ah> i'd prefer a license that forbids you to use the software until you forfeit all your copyright rights and promise never seek copyright damages in courts
04:52 < L29Ah> but OSI/FSF/DFSG would never approve that
04:53 < L29Ah> juri_: capitalism is great when devoid of violence i think
04:53 < juri_> capitalism without a balance of power and interests is violence.
04:54 < L29Ah> sadly the greater your controlled assets, the more violence you can get away with
04:55 < L29Ah> juri_: do i get it right you don't believe in private property?
04:57 < juri_> oh, i do, i just don't apply it to much other than to the tools i use for my profession.
05:01 < L29Ah> so only you are entitled to owning private property, or what?
05:02 < juri_> No, what i have is generally available for others, with the exception of what i need to continue hacking all of the things.
05:03 < juri_> I don't like private intelectual property. i like the results of it applied to entertainment, that's about it.
05:03 < L29Ah> the question is about how you handle the ethics of others' private property
05:03 < L29Ah> i mean tangible assets first of all
05:04 < L29Ah> the idea of intellectual property is so full of kludges that i prefer to drop it altogether
05:04 < juri_> I have run hackerspaces for 8 years, almost all of my 'private' property was at the space, being used (abused, broken, etc) by others.
05:15 < juri_> If you're really looking for an incrogruity with my dislike of capitalism.. I have done the "save money for retirement" thing, because i don't trust the world to 'take care' of me when i am too burned out by 50 years is IT to be commercially useful. our lack of a social saftey net forces each of us to hoarde resources. even anti-capitalists.
05:21 < L29Ah> nah, i'm looking for your political stance, as if you reject capitalism, you probably have some replacement system in mind (and those are generally interesting to me)
05:28 < juri_> highly constrained capitalism, bordering on socialism. ;)
05:29 < L29Ah> so what are the constraints?
05:29 < TMA> I like the abstract concept of capitalism. I do like the abstract concept of communism as well. the only part I do not like is the people. both would function splendidly if only the agents were not a bunch of narcistic idiotic liars as the humans are
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06:13 < fenn> http://www.peoplescapitalism.org/presentations/PeoplesCapitalismpaper3.pdf James Albus, head of NIST's intelligent systems divison that got the whole self-driving-car thing going, summarizes his book here
06:14 < fenn> so many people are fixed on "communism vs capitalism" that we forgot how to think creatively and come up with new solutions for the new economic reality of a post-automation world
06:19 < L29Ah> what solutions
06:19 < L29Ah> there're no problems
06:19 < fenn> you want me to summarize the paper?
06:19 < fenn> if you don't see any problems i don't know what to tell you
06:19 < L29Ah> do you refer to luddites?
06:19 < fenn> weren't you just complaining about how it would take dozens of lives worth of effort to go to mars?
06:20 < L29Ah> i'm not complaing, i'm stating the contemporary fact
06:20 < L29Ah> some stuff will be expensive regardless of the social structure in place, just because the physics is a bitch
06:22 < fenn> the energy cost of launching on starship to LEO is $3/kg, at today's propellant prices
06:22 < fenn> that's about 500x less than the current cost of launch
06:22 < fenn> the rest is human labor
06:23 < fenn> i'm not saying "the problem is automation" i'm saying "karl marx's arguments are obsolete now that we have automation"
06:26 < L29Ah> λ> 7800**2 + 9.8 * 600000
06:26 < L29Ah> 6.672e7
06:26 < L29Ah> yup the theoretical energy requirements are comparatively small, about 2kg of methane+oxygen per kg, but rockets are horribly inefficient
06:27 < fenn> it actually uses about 32kg propellant per kg of payload
06:28 < fenn> 3.55 kg of oxygen per kg of methane
06:28 < fenn> so that's, uh, 9kg of methane per kg of payload
06:29 < fenn> apparently methane is super cheap in bulk
06:29 < L29Ah> > 3.55 kg of oxygen per kg of methane
06:29 < L29Ah> ouch, 4.55 then, also i didn't account for the fact you need to carry propellant with you halfway
06:29 < L29Ah> great, great
06:30 < fenn> what's 4.55?
06:30  * L29Ah starts saving for his asteroid commune in the belt
06:30 < L29Ah> fenn: 3.55 + 1
06:52 < fenn> if i've done my math right, methane currently costs around $0.1/kg
06:53 < fenn> there are a lot of bizarre units involved though
06:55 < fenn> liquid oxygen is basically free
07:03 < L29Ah> yeah methane is counted as the volume at stp for some reason afair
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07:26 < L29Ah> opened the paper, read about inflation, facepalmed, closed the paper
08:36 < darsie> L29Ah: How efficient are rockets? Have you compared the fuel combustion energy with orbital energy?
08:37 < L29Ah> dunno; yes
08:38 < darsie> Just divide, then, and you get the efficiency, hm?
08:38 < L29Ah> random wikipedia tells about an "efficient" rocket engine being 60%-efficient
08:38 < L29Ah> divide what?
08:38 < darsie> fuel combustion energy with orbital energy
08:38 < L29Ah> i don't have the amount of fuel, and my aim was to calculate it from the orbital energy
08:39 < L29Ah> i can grab some falcon heavy tho
08:55 < fenn> about 20% apparently
08:56 < darsie> Do space ships with ion propulsion count as rockets?
08:58 < L29Ah> they can't get off the ground so it doesn't matter ;)
08:58 < darsie> The can fly to several asteroids, though.
08:59 < fenn> orbital energy is 33MJ/kg and methane has 55MJ/kg, so if you need 9 kg of methane to get to orbit, that's 33/(9*55) = 6.7% efficiency compared to magically accelerating without violating conservation of energy
09:00 < TMA> the paper reads as a big heap of wishful thinking
09:00 < fenn> go away eeyore
09:12 < juri_> reality is cruel. eeyore had it right.
09:12 < L29Ah> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specific_orbital_energy#Tangential_velocities_at_altitude suggests we need twice as much energy
09:13 < L29Ah> to get away from earth
09:16 < fenn> once you're in orbit you can use solar energy to go elsewhere
09:16 < fenn> or take up twice as much methane, or use lunar ice, or ...
09:17 < L29Ah> you need twice as much methane to reach the lunar ice
09:17 < fenn> i'm a big fan of rotating tether networks to recycle energy and momentum
09:17 < L29Ah> solar energy is nice but slow
09:17 < TMA> current state of solar sail technology or fuelless propulstion does not support such a bold claim
09:17 < fenn> not talking about solar sails, but whatever
09:17 < fenn> so sorry you can't see in front of your own feet
09:18 < L29Ah> just relax and achieve immortality first :P
09:18 < juri_> now that i'll agree with.
09:19 < TMA> looking (and reaching) far towards things beyond the horizon makes you trip on the obstacles and blood your nose
09:19 < TMA> _some_ people do not trip, though
09:19 < juri_> big problems are solved in small pieces. solve the little bits.
09:20 < TMA> considering only those is called "survivor bias" IIRC
09:20 < L29Ah> ordered a zirconia tooth crown, i wonder if it counts towards my immortality score
09:21 < fenn> your teeth are no good here. we accept years, QALYs, qualia, and quails
09:23 < L29Ah> how many QALYs earns not being a socialist?
09:24 < L29Ah> tfw not sure if it makes more sense to keep on working on my current specialization or reorient into gerontology for the best effect
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09:25 < L29Ah> s/specialization/& and donating monies to scientists™/
09:25 < TMA> it depends on what you are maximizing
09:25 < L29Ah> QALYs
09:25 < juri_> I accept currency for doing what i'm already doing. :P
09:25 < L29Ah> you don't work on life extension, no currency for you
09:27 < juri_> I'm trying to improve 3d printing, for biological purposes. every day. all day. when you're not busy trolling me. :P
09:27 < TMA> L29Ah: I guess that the uncertainity is so great in estimating the deltaQALYs for each option that you might as well choose randomly
09:28 < L29Ah> yeah
09:30 < TMA> L29Ah: FWIW, even the YOLO way (== fuck the future, just do whatever strikes your fancy, even things known dangerous/harmful) might turn out to be _THE_ optimal strategy for maximizing QALYs
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09:34 < L29Ah> juri_: i still can't build master hslicer against master implicitcad, is it expected behaviour?
09:35 < juri_> L29Ah: yes. i build against the last release. :)
09:35 < juri_> hslice is pretty broken atm. i'm in the tail end of integrating a projective geometric algebra library into it.
09:36 < juri_> this being haskell, first i had to write a projective geometric algebra library.
09:36 < juri_> two months later...
09:37 < L29Ah> i got disillusioned with haskell recently as i've made a big memory leak and can't do shit about it
09:38 < L29Ah> ghc's profiling is like "lol u're using more and more pinned memory!", and that's it
09:38 < juri_> ... buy more ram? my haskell compiling box has 32 cores, 256gb of ram.
09:38 < juri_> ugh. i hate thate
09:38 < L29Ah> i would have to have enough ram to fit all my /
09:38 < L29Ah> as this is a program for making backups
09:39 < TMA> as an Eeyoreoid, I do not believe that I am able to chose. The most I can do is to be able to discern how I should have chosen. But that does not make current/future choices less random
09:39 < juri_> ah yes, you meentioned that.
09:40 < L29Ah> TMA: you can put your legs one in front of the other or can put your leg in your ass, the choice is yours!
09:40 < Allure[m]> Deep convos going on uh
09:40 < juri_> if the choice is near random, than i have chosen to continue down my 'nearby to relevance' path. i have a proficiency in 3d printing technologies, best to refine that for 'the cause'.
09:41 < juri_> L29Ah: I've got some haskellers that owe me a few favors, want me to ask one of them to look at your code?
09:41 < L29Ah> dunno, do it if you feel like
09:42 < juri_> L29Ah: code URL?
09:42 < L29Ah> i'll throw you a few m₿ if it fixes things tho
09:42 < L29Ah> https://github.com/l29ah/hyborg
09:43 < L29Ah> the relevant code is mostly in https://github.com/l29ah/hyborg/blob/master/Main.hs#L115 i think
09:43 < juri_> thanks. i'll toss it about.
09:45 < darsie> Withdrawal fee from exchanges is 0.5 mBTC.
09:45 < darsie> monero has lower fees and better privacy.
09:46 < L29Ah> your exchanges suck
09:46 < darsie> Which are better/cheaper?
09:46 < L29Ah> i avoid them altogether though as they're infested with KYC cancer
09:47 < L29Ah> friends, colleagues, shady folk from https://www.bestchange.com/
09:49 < fenn> hmm.. offers of USD for USD, what could possibly be going on i wonder
10:24 < lsneff> 12:19 <TMA> _some_ people do not trip, though
10:24 < lsneff> Who?
11:02 < Allure[m]> Any papers on how to capture stimuli traveling the medula?
11:02 < Allure[m]> Please tag me on a response
12:01 < kanzure> http://www.righto.com/2020/09/reverse-engineering-first-fpga-chip.html
12:02 < kanzure> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24462093
12:08 < kanzure> .unixtime
12:08 < saxo> 1600024090
12:09 < Allure[m]> "saxo" (https://matrix.to/#/@freenode_saxo:matrix.org) same
12:29 < TMA> lsneff: if you make all humans toss a coin every day for thirty days, you'll get a few (probably less than a dozen) that came up with heads every single day. how they are special? they are just selected by a random process
12:33 < TMA> lsneff: (substitute some true random process instead of coin toss, which you can learn to swindle)
13:27 < nmz787> I just bid on a dualbeam FIB/SEM
13:36 < fenn> i flipped a coin tail 86 times in a row once before getting tired of it
13:36 < fenn> tails*
13:41 < juri_> nmz787: lucky soul. wishing i had space for one.
13:47 < nmz787> juri_: well reserve price isn't met... I will be boxed in in terms of space if I actually end up as an owner
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14:00 < lsneff> fenn: were both sides of the coin tails?
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15:13 < kanzure> "If we don't go far enough, someone else will. Whether Iran or China or North Korea, someone else will eventually start producing superintelligent children that will outshine all western scientists and engineers[1]. If we don't start doing it too, we will become irrelevant, prehistoric tribes that have no place in the modern world."
15:44 < lsneff> .t https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:dUWrpm80WHsJ:https://earthsky.org/%3Fp%3D343883+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
15:44 < saxo> https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:dUWrpm80WHsJ:https://earthsky.org/%3Fp%3D343883+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
15:44 < lsneff> “Has microbial life been found on Venus?”
15:51 < kanzure> lsneff: progress update on your rust nanotech software?
15:53 < lsneff> Slow going, been extremely busy with school. Currently helping bootstrap a rust game engine, which I can build the cad software on top of.
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16:22 < kanzure> https://old.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/is5qrd/ive_had_a_71year_career_in_nuclear_energy_and/
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19:17 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=a8e617f4 Michael Folkson: Add Greg on Taproot pace >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/greg-maxwell/greg-maxwell-taproot-pace/
19:17 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=e3e50207 Michael Folkson: Merge pull request #159 from michaelfolkson/add-greg-taproot-pace >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/
19:17 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=9ac01520 Michael Folkson: Add Adam and Bryan on re-orgs >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/what-bitcoin-did-podcast/2019-05-14-adam-back-bryan-bishop-block-reorgs/
19:17 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=68fe3429 Michael Folkson: Merge pull request #160 from michaelfolkson/add-adam-bryan-reorg >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/
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19:45 < kanzure> "Speculative probing: Hacking blind in the Spectre era" https://download.vusec.net/papers/blindside_ccs20.pdf
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--- Log closed Mon Sep 14 00:00:18 2020