--- Log opened Sat Apr 16 00:00:56 2022
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04:01 < L29Ah> 22:45:18]<muurkha> an inner monologue is where you imagine a voice or writing as a method of thinking
04:01 < L29Ah> why do you think you indeed imagine a voice and not imagining yourself imagining a voice?
04:02 < L29Ah> inner dialogue and similar shit are epistemically implausible
04:02 < L29Ah> a person telling you that one has it is indistinguishable from one telling that one hasn't
04:14 < docl> people truthfully report different experiences, ergo very distinguishable
04:15 < docl> and I experience both kinds of cognition... e.g. there are cases where my brain shuts the chatter and I can solve a math or programming puzzle without all the chatter
04:17 < docl> it often bugs me when I'm reading code and can't figure out how a thing is supposed to be pronounced. or figure out I've been pronouncing it a nonstandard way all this time
04:18 < L29Ah> "truthfully"
04:19 < L29Ah> being unable to detect your own self-deception doesn't make you truthful
04:23 < docl> why are you claiming self deception is the most plausible thing here? sounds a bit nuts, like claiming the universe was created last tuesday and everyone's memories are implants
04:24 < L29Ah> because it passes the Occam's razor well, unlike other theories that demand hidden variables while not producing any better forecasts
04:29 < docl> No, it fails occam's razor by positing a hidden variable like people somehow not experiencing what they in fact do experience
04:33 < L29Ah> wut
04:33 < L29Ah> > in fact
04:33 < L29Ah> people's experiences aren't observable
04:33 < L29Ah> so that's not a fact
04:47 < docl> in which case nothing is observable
04:48 < L29Ah> nah, one can observe people's behavior
04:53 < docl> one can observe inner monologue if one has it
04:54 < docl> that's kind of what an experience is
04:56 < L29Ah> how to tell it apart from a hallucination of sorts? what's the organ that allows observing it?
05:12 < docl> I would assume a similar part of the brain to what handles verbal processing
05:14 < jrayhawk> all thoughts are hallucinations, some hallucinations are useful. https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/09/12/its-bayes-all-the-way-up/
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06:04 < L29Ah> implying the discussed hallucinations are useful, and useful = true
06:05 < L29Ah> how does one even tell the usefulness of a hallucination?
06:06 < L29Ah> does it make sense to talk about hallucinations instead of simply dismissing them? anyone could produce plenty of various hallucinations at will whenever, after all
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06:24 < docl> not all hallucinations are even possible to achieve for unaugmented human brains. for example, it is not possible to hallucinate a textbook above your level accurately in detail, even having read it
06:27 < docl> basically the accuracy level of a mental recreation of an image or sound is bottlenecked by memory, which in turn tends to rely on comprehension (although nonsense associations can work for that too)
06:30 < lsneff> I’m not sure what the difference would be between having an inner dialogue and hallucinating an inner dialogue.
06:34 < docl> one curious thing with my internal audio channel is that it can replay faster than real time without seeming to be a sped-up version of itself. like if I get distracted during a conversation and someone asks me a question, I can seemingly replay it in my head for meaning in less time than it took them to say it
06:50 < docl> that hints that the words were translated into semantic units and kept sequentialized, but get dynamically converted to something more like a vocal recording when I pay attention to them
07:11 < kanzure> the laundry cycle is pretty interesting.
07:12 < jrayhawk> useful is orthogonal to true.
07:12 < jrayhawk> the existence of an internal monologue is a huge part of why cognitive behavioral therapy works and a huge part of how meditation works.
07:23 < Jay_Dugger> Hello, everyone.
07:27 < jrayhawk> if the only subject matter you are willing to entertain is that which you can build predictive models with such narrow confidence intervals and high confidence levels that it can be cleanly classified as "true" or "false", you will be unable to model reality outside of math and computers
07:46 < juri_> true enough. ;)
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07:53 < lsneff> Hmm
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09:51 <+gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=d3d3ce44 Jose.Junior.de.Oliveira:  >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/bitcoin-takeover-austin/texas-mining/
10:04 <+gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=7ddf89fa Bryan Bishop: Revert "" >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/bitcoin-takeover-austin/texas-mining/
11:01 < muurkha> lsneff: the experience of having an inner dialogue and an aural hallucination of voices might just be how you interpret it
11:02 < muurkha> (even if Jaynes was wrong about most things, he might be right about that)
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14:22 < mrdata> but was jaynes wrong?
14:26 < docl> https://psychology.fandom.com/wiki/Bicameralism
14:54 < fenn> L29Ah: maybe one could observe a statistically significant difference in the fMRI brain activity of people who claim to or not to have an inner monologue
14:55 < fenn> probably involving broca's area
14:55 < fenn> the brain is no longer a black box, as far as philosophical problems are concerned
14:56 < L29Ah> "maybe" doesn't count when asking for evidence for things that people believe now
14:56 < L29Ah> also one could simply lie either way
14:57 < fenn> after scanning enough inner-monologue-haves/have-nots you should be able to predict with high confidence whether a new person who hasn't claimed to have or have not, actually has or has not an inner monologue
14:57 < fenn> so, yay epistemology
14:57 < fenn> data crushes all philosophical quandaries
14:58 < fenn> and no, most people can't produce hallucinations at will
15:00 < fenn> at least one person experiences a constant narrator voice describing in step by step detail their boring day to day activities in a british accent
15:01 < fenn> if there were more people like this, should the rest of you be concerned that you're lacking an inner narrator? you must be soulless and broken, unable to think or plan or find continuity in your life, without a constant narration
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15:03 < fenn> the word "fandom" really bugs me
15:04 < fenn> i hope someone has been scraping all of those wikis so that when this company goes poof, the thousands of years of curation don't go poof as well
15:05 < fenn> is there a woke-approved, widely understood version of the unit "man-years" yet?
15:07 < L29Ah> human effort
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15:09 < fenn> "This task will take about 20 days of effort." "Not clear whether that means the team will need 20 days, or the 5-member team will need 4 days."
15:09 < fenn> the whole point of units is to be unambiguous, concise, and dimensionally correct
15:10 < juri_> If anyone finds papers in this area, i'd be interested in reading them. tl;dr: i've been in bad enough mental health to hear voices that were "not my own". no fun.
15:10 < fenn> well it's a pretty common affliction so there are bound to be lots of papers
15:11 < fenn> psychology and psychiatry are in a pretty sad state, ranking down there with other bogus almost-pseudosciences like nutrition
15:12 < fenn> it's frustrating because they COULD do real scientific experiments, but instead make survey questionnaires for bored college students to choose to fill out, if they're the sort of person who does weird psychology questionnaires for fun
15:13 < fenn> sorry if i have offended any psychologists; i want your field to be as rigorous as physics so it can be relied on as a tool
15:14 < fenn> so if you're looking to psychology for answers, you probably won't find any, IMHO
15:14 < fenn> (this isn't to say that all the other forms of woo are any more correct)
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--- Log closed Sun Apr 17 00:00:57 2022