--- Log opened Sun Sep 28 00:00:52 2025
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01:44 < fenn> the stone age cave-cat had knapped flint claws, and male pattern baldness
02:25 < fenn> isaac asimov on the letterman show, 1980 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIB1b_8hqB0&t=8m
02:25 < fenn> he seems kind of depressed
02:27 < hprmbridge> .monokhrome> at what?
03:31 < fenn> nuclear war
03:31 < fenn> but just in general
03:38 < TMA> being depressed is allegedly normal and more frequent, severe and long-lasting if the person is a pessimist (i.e. not delusional)
03:47 < hprmbridge> .monokhrome> Oh good. What about anxiety?
03:48 < fenn> i think these "personality traits" can be changed with a microbiome swap, and possibly face to face social interaction at the right time of day
03:49 < fenn> pessimists aren't always automatically right, here's a bunch of stuff you will never read but that proves your ideology wrong https://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/index.html
03:51 < fenn> TMA: do the exercise, before you read the answers, answer the questions yourself: https://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/docdil.html
03:51 < hprmbridge> .monokhrome> If autism turns out to be driven by gut microbiome which in turn is influenced by vaccines I will roll around on the floor and laugh.
03:52 < fenn> it's not. it's genetic, and nobody wants to confront this fact
03:52 < fenn> i mean, genes load the gun and environmental insults pull the trigger
03:54 < fenn> there are a lot of microbiome/diet interventions that help with negative life experiences some autistic people have
03:54 < fenn> and again psychology has failed us by making a bullshit diagnosis that cover many different phenomena
03:54 < fenn> covers*
03:56 < TMA> fenn: (1) he will heal a number of people in the near term. the long term effects are hard to predict.
03:57 < fenn> how many people?
03:57 < TMA> hundreds
03:57 < fenn> hundreds??
03:57 < fenn> all he has to do is touch someone and bam
03:58 < TMA> then it diverges based on how events will pan out
03:58 < fenn> "What should he try to do and how should he go about it?"
03:58 < TMA> for example he might decide to touch peoples in public and he would be incarcerated for sexual harassment
03:58 < TMA> or not
04:01 < TMA> a psychotic rival/coworker might decide to poison him (1:10000 chance)
04:02 < TMA> a true believer(tm) of some religion might try to kill him, because only the God/... is permitted to do miracles
04:03 < TMA> alternatively they might to kidnap him and use him to claim the miracle for their own end
04:04 < TMA> by having the power he will inevitably be the target for those craving that power and not having it
04:06 < TMA> assuming that no adversary actively trying to undermine him will turn up (let's be charitable and give it 1:1 chance) it is still uncertain what the end result will be
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04:08 < TMA> However I don't know how to benefit humanity by curing people. I believe that the problem of humanity is too many humans being alive and healing humans will cause more humans to be alive. But he is a doctor who believes healing humans is good.
04:09 < TMA> I cannot imagine reconciling those.
04:10 < TMA> If I want my friends and family to be healthy and live well, I know it is to the detriment of other humans.
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04:16 < TMA> if I eat something I exclude all others from eating it; If I have one-on-one conversation with someone I preclude everyone else to have a conversation with that other person at the same time
04:18 < TMA> On Monday, I have had a conversation with my friend and it was mutually beneficial for the both of us I think. But it also means that I have used that time slot so that other people were unable to reap the benefits of conversing with my friend.
04:18 < TMA> (or doing other activities)
04:23 < TMA> fenn: sorry, I cannot devise a plan to fulfil "he wants to use his gift to benefit humanity as much as possible." I just cannot imagine what it might entail for him.
04:33 < fenn> because you hate humanity and can't empathize with the good doctor?
04:35 < fenn> "if I eat something I exclude all others from eating it" let me introduce you to the law of supply and demand
04:35 < fenn> "too many humans to have a one-on-one conversation" is just nonsense
04:35 < jrayhawk> there's got to be a channel specifically for negative utilitarians we can send people to
04:36 < fenn> anyway you gave it a go, thanks. now you can read the solution
04:37 < TMA> that's a somewhat inaccurate. I don't think I hate humanity. I just think that the optimal number of humans for the humanity to have is way lower than the current number.
04:44 < TMA> If healing the maximum number of people is the solution, then perhaps ingratiating oneself with a dictator, then healing his invading armies to subdue the world and then efficiently concentrate all the people in need of healing so that the doctor might just be spread naked near conveyor belts hurling sick people around might be the optimal solution
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04:46 < TMA> if he underwent skin extension procedures (skin stretching), more conveyor belts might be fitted around him
04:49 < fenn> now you're thinking
04:52 < TMA> oh wow. the first few "LITERARY EXERCISES IN PESSIMISM AND PARANOIA" are remarkably similar to my take
05:02 < TMA> so, did I solve it? I haven't read even the literary excercises before trying to answer it
05:06 < fenn> sort of. you're supposed to calculate how many people the doctor can save
05:08 < TMA> saving people still feels wrong. it extends the capacity for suffering
05:08 < fenn> i'm sorry you feel that way
05:08 < fenn> consider that there are many billions of people who disagree
05:09 < fenn> i forget what i am trying to do here exactly so i'm going to bed
05:10 < TMA> I know that most people don't extend their aversion to suffering to people they have not met or even to most of those they have met but are not presently seeing. 
05:11 < jrayhawk> negative utilitarianism always ends in anti-biotism. it is the wrong way to systemize your moral intuitions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_utilitarianism
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05:40 < hprmbridge> kanzure> in what way is aes256 "advanced"? https://www.nasa.gov/mission/station/research-explorer/investigation/?#id=9276
05:45 < hprmbridge> kanzure> https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/CABaSBaywaebTUgoVKnNfnhy7psd-=08GnePCbBJmF1WvcZqkYw@mail.gmail.com/
05:51 < hprmbridge> kanzure> "In Tim Dean's account, moral ecology is a variation of pragmatic ethics that additionally supposes that morality evolves like an ecosystem, and ethical practice should therefore include strategies analogous to those of ecosystem management, such as protecting a degree of moral diversity" god damn it how did i let jrayhawk truck me into reading this stuff.
05:52 < jrayhawk> how on earth did you get there
05:53 < hprmbridge> kanzure> well negative consequentialism looked stupid so i clicked around
05:54 < hprmbridge> kanzure> from the consequentialism parent article.
05:55 < hprmbridge> kanzure> and then to pragmatic ethics
05:56 < L29Ah> TMA: i think the optimal number of humans for the humanity to have is way higher than the current number
05:57 < L29Ah> for now it is the way we process the inbound ones and the rate of their income that matters much more than their total quantity
05:58 < L29Ah> TMA: there's a simple solution to suffering btw, but libera.chat policies forbid discussing it
06:13 < TMA> L29Ah: I don't think there are simple solutions to anything besides simple problems. No amount of pornography, discrimination, doxing and activities unlawful in Sweden is going to change that.
06:14 < hprmbridge> kanzure> optimal to who or to what?
06:14 < L29Ah> suffering is a simple problem and not a big deal overall
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10:53 < kanzure> darsie: your plan needs to include accumulating mass and energy from the rest of the universe before it's unreachable, to feed the black hole. after that you need a plan for what happens once the black hole dissipates.
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12:45 <+gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=bf84fe2d Bryan Bishop: delayed puberty, puberty blocking, eliminate menstruation pain >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/genetic-modifications/
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13:14 <+gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=8f76c505 Bryan Bishop: suppress or activate feeding neurons, thirst neurons, social status gene, gay gene >> 
13:21 <+gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=1d50b828 Bryan Bishop: uterine denervation >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/genetic-modifications/
13:22 < kanzure> L29Ah: suffering can be eliminated by scn9a mutations
13:23 < L29Ah> suffering ≠ pain, although i guess my philosophical vocabulary is not in sync with anglosphere in this regard
13:25 < kanzure> ah, well that can also be fixed
13:32 < ike8> suffering is spiritual, so to speak
14:28 < TMA> pain of psychic injury. mostly from unfulfilled expectations and wishes
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18:14 < pasky> kanzure: http://pasky.or.cz/ourtober25/crimson if you want to try :) (don't share the link elsewhere for now please; prefer your own openrouter key if you have one, the current one has something like $2 credit limit)
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22:22 < fenn> well at least my Nrf2 potion is tasty. i added some parsley so it ended up looking very shrek
22:25 < fenn> turmeric emulsion + pepper
22:31 < superkuh> Potion of turn skin yellow.
22:36 < fenn> turn adipose tissue orange
22:36 < fenn> according to an autopsy of a turmeric junkie
22:36 < fenn> (he didn't die of turmeric poisoning fwiw)
23:09 < jrayhawk> the MAO-I effects of turmeric mess with me too much :/
--- Log closed Mon Sep 29 00:00:53 2025