| --- Log opened Tue Oct 26 00:00:18 2010 | ||
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| dbolser | An exciting journal entitled "Recent Patents on Biotechnology (BIOT)" was launched in February 2007. This journal publishes review articles written by experts on recent patents in the field of biotechnology. Please visit the journal's website at http://www.benthameditorial.org/biot for the Editorial Board, first journal issue, abstracts of recent issues and other details. | 01:16 |
|---|---|---|
| dbolser | If you would like to submit a review article to the journal on an important patent area in biotechnology, then please provide us the title of your proposed article and a tentative date of submission at editorial@pat-biot.org. Moreover in your reply, could you please suggest some specific keywords, keyword phrases related to your topic, so that detailed patents may be sent to you for the preparation of your manuscript. | 01:16 |
| dbolser | This is not a spam message, and has been sent to you because of your eminence in the field. If, however, you do not want to receive any email in future from Journal of Forensic Research, then please reply with remove/unsubscribe | 01:18 |
| dbolser | what a joke | 01:18 |
| memorex | does anyone know how to get past the redirect on this website: http://174.120.81.93/~dietommy/ | 01:20 |
| memorex | it is suspended but I want to archive the site but I can't seem to do it. | 01:20 |
| dbolser | using nc, all I see is "<body> <iframe src="http://searchportal.information.com/?a_id=47368&domainname=" width="100%" height="100%" frameborder="0"></iframe> </body> | 01:22 |
| memorex | hm | 01:22 |
| dbolser | google cache? | 01:22 |
| memorex | tried it | 01:22 |
| memorex | the site was only up for a few months, and was not even archived | 01:23 |
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| airMAXmv | thewayback machine? | 01:45 |
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| memorex | hm | 01:58 |
| memorex | maybe | 01:58 |
| memorex | but i doubt it | 01:58 |
| memorex | didnt work | 02:02 |
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| dachary | Utopiah: what does hplus stand for ? | 02:29 |
| Utopiah | Humanity, just better | 02:30 |
| dachary | :-D | 02:30 |
| dachary | H++ | 02:30 |
| Utopiah | yes but too geek for the "general public" | 02:30 |
| dachary | http://graphsynth.com/~bryan/hplus-summit-2009/ is 404 | 02:31 |
| dachary | http://heybryan.org/ is timeout for me, can you see it ? | 02:31 |
| Utopiah | yes lot of server issues recently and no way to change the topic (I guess) | 02:31 |
| Utopiah | you can still have a look at http://www.hplusmagazine.com http://www.hplussummit.com/2010/east/ or http://fabien.benetou.fr/Events/HplusSummitHarvard | 02:32 |
| Utopiah | more recently http://transvision2010.wordpress.com | 02:34 |
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| dachary | Has h+ explored the implication of Free Software an the evolution of mankind ? | 02:37 |
| dachary | s/an th/in the/ | 02:38 |
| Utopiah | well Id say most people here use FLOSS and http://wiki.opencog.org/w/Licenses goes in that direction too but a formal paper on that specifically, not that I know of | 02:39 |
| dachary | I would go as far as to say that the future of humanity is shaped by the software. And therefore by who controls the software and its making. If you assume the current balance between Free Software and proprietary software will not change in the centuries to come, you will not draw the same conclusions as someone assuming that software is not controled (i.e. mostly Free Software). | 02:44 |
| kanzure | dachary: hplus stands for "transhuman" | 02:48 |
| kanzure | dachary: most of the transhumanism supporters are clueless about libre software | 02:48 |
| Utopiah | makes me think of Architecture is Politics (and Politics is Architecture) http://blog.kapor.com/index9cd7.html?p=29 | 02:48 |
| dachary | kanzure: thanks :-) | 02:48 |
| dachary | kanzure: this is weird isn't it ? Who controls the software make a big difference when each and every human uses software. | 02:50 |
| dachary | s/make/makes/ | 02:50 |
| Utopiah | Id to think that most people have a hard time dealing with what is not tangible and even more not tangible locks that you get trap into only later on | 02:52 |
| kanzure | fenn: just saw sebastien's messages :/ | 02:54 |
| kanzure | i guess i didn't bother to check #reprap at the same time or something | 02:55 |
| kanzure | dachary: sorry about designfiles.org/heybryan.org being down. the first server was confiscated, the second one died | 02:56 |
| dachary | Utopiah: I get that. | 02:58 |
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| kanzure | dachary: for the record, i think exploring open source software and open source hardware in the context of transhumanism would be worthwhile | 03:05 |
| dachary | kanzure: maybe there is a general thread about "dealing with technology owners thru patents / copyright" ? | 03:06 |
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| kanzure | fenn: what is "mmone-jtag-serial-cable"? http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/mmone-jtag-serial-cable/source/tree/master/ | 03:10 |
| kanzure | dachary: what? are you asking me for information about patents and open source hardware? | 03:10 |
| dachary | kanzure: no :-) I'm asking if there are articles/discussions about the general topic of "who controls the technology" in hplus. Sorry for being unclear. | 03:12 |
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| kanzure | no, everyone who has started those discussions tends to be just fearmonger "omg you assholes are going to keep all teh techz!" | 03:13 |
| kanzure | but there are a few initiatives i'm aware of, such as Creative Commons' Open Patent License | 03:13 |
| kanzure | and the recently renewed interest in open source hardware (although, so far, no legal solutions have been proposed) | 03:14 |
| archels | Solutions to what problem, exactly? | 03:14 |
| mjr | oh there are legal solutions, just not ones that are popular with the powers that be ;] | 03:15 |
| kanzure | mjr: like, get rid of patents? heh | 03:16 |
| kanzure | another idea going around is the idea of instantly making all patents usable for defensive purposes only | 03:19 |
| kanzure | (at this point there isn't enough public comprehension of patents and their negative aspects.. people think they are the best things ever) | 03:19 |
| mjr | like. | 03:19 |
| kanzure | ? | 03:20 |
| mjr | signaling agreement with the proposition | 03:20 |
| kanzure | i just gave you an example | 03:20 |
| kanzure | oh. | 03:21 |
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| kanzure | http://groups.google.com/group/makerbotmusic | 03:23 |
| kanzure | cncmusic would totally kick the ass out of that | 03:24 |
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| kanzure | archels: the problem in open source hardware (from a legal perspective) is that, so far, no one has figured out a way to require people to share designs of a manufactured derivative (presumably distributed along with the product itself?) | 03:25 |
| * kanzure goes back to sleep for a few hours | 03:26 | |
| Utopiah | dachary: like http://en.swpat.org/wiki/Defensive_patent_pools | 03:27 |
| kanzure | fenn: i meant git://projects.qi-hardware.com/mmone-jtag-serial-cable.git | 03:29 |
| dachary | Utopiah: I'm not in favor of this. Mainly because it only works if you're in the top ten patent owner world wide. That being said I'm not against patents when it comes to hardware (i.e. when forces of nature are at work as opposed to software / thoughts ) | 03:29 |
| kanzure | eh | 03:29 |
| kanzure | if you are going to do a defensive patent pool, for open source hardware, you should allow non-patent-holders to sign up, no? | 03:30 |
| kanzure | in general having patents is too high of a barrier to entry anyway | 03:30 |
| kanzure | the whole principal of a patent is the ability to *exclude others* whereas in open source hardware we'd like to explicitly include everyone | 03:30 |
| kanzure | in software, we can just write code and slap on a copyright license (like the GPL) and we're good to go | 03:31 |
| kanzure | copyrights are automatically granted, but patents are not (you have to go register for them, and then there's a first-to-file or first-to-patent thing going on, and your work has to be unique, etc.) | 03:31 |
| kanzure | Creative Commons' suggestion is to just provide some boilerplate text for an "open patent license" or "model patent license" so that license holders can make their patent explicitly shareable under some guidelines.. but again, the patent registration barrier | 03:32 |
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| Jonano | yo | 04:53 |
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| Jonano | www.diybio.biz page rank ? 10 ! | 05:02 |
| Jonano | from 16 to 10, in a week, good. | 05:03 |
| Jonano | When it will be on page 1, the community will grow by itself | 05:03 |
| Jonano | I'm going to buy an article soon for this community on www.constant-content.com about 30$ | 05:04 |
| Jonano | the purpose of this article will be: How to build your own biotech laboratory | 05:04 |
| Jonano | I also need to buy the domain for 10 years, which will cost around 100$ | 05:05 |
| Jonano | all the project will be funded by my other web site, PRETp2p.com | 05:06 |
| Jonano | which has around 5000 members. | 05:06 |
| dachary | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extropianism is H+ ? | 05:18 |
| archels | sure | 05:20 |
| dbolser | patents ... interesting | 05:28 |
| dbolser | I'm trying (half heartedly) to convince a bunch of 'bioprenurs' that patents aren't 'fit for purpose', I never though about the problem of NOT applying a patent | 05:29 |
| dbolser | perhaps you just need to make dam sure you got your prior art in the public domain? | 05:29 |
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| dbolser | I only know from the uk perspective, but any disclosure can invalidate your patent application | 05:29 |
| dbolser | is the problem making the design viral like an copy left / share alike? | 05:30 |
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| Utopiah | http://free-books.dontexist.com/book/index.php?md5=dd17ea810c71b1807b0237dd68a6d5da | 05:41 |
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| JayDugger | Good morning, everyone. | 06:53 |
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| kanzure | does anyone remember me complaining about this? http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1248388728/remade-the-rebirth-of-the-maker-movement | 07:23 |
| kanzure | they have a trailer now: http://vimeo.com/15729047 | 07:23 |
| JayDugger | Honestly? no. | 07:29 |
| kanzure | man the russians are crazy ???? ?????? ?????????? <matvey@transhuman.ru> | 07:35 |
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| kanzure | why did dachary leave | 07:42 |
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| archels | Why does anybody do anything? | 07:51 |
| JayDugger | Unknown. | 07:54 |
| JayDugger | I had my telepathic abilities removed with a red hot coat hanger. Reading minds got to be too much: like gargling sewage morning, noon, and night. | 07:55 |
| JayDugger | So I can't say much about others' motives. :) | 07:55 |
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| Jonano | DIYbio.biz will become the largest site in DIYbio | 07:58 |
| Jonano | with 4 applications installed and ready to use...... | 07:59 |
| Jonano | I'm gonna buy the url for 10 years soon | 07:59 |
| archels | goodluckwiththat | 08:00 |
| archels | wait, this isn't /. | 08:00 |
| Jonano | there are only 55 000 pages about DIYbio this is sad | 08:00 |
| Jonano | on google | 08:00 |
| Jonano | kim jong-il will soon die and kim jong un will start | 08:03 |
| Jonano | as a successof | 08:04 |
| Jonano | r | 08:04 |
| archels | Do you think Kim jr. will do much in transhumanism? Stem cell research? A(G)I projects? | 08:05 |
| Jonano | I think he should invest in anti aging or cryonics | 08:06 |
| Jonano | and put more humans to it | 08:06 |
| Jonano | in cryonics and then after in anti aging. | 08:07 |
| Jonano | when cryonics is perfect, your next goal must be anti aging. | 08:07 |
| Jonano | 1000 people working to it would be good. | 08:07 |
| Jonano | but they are at missile right now | 08:08 |
| Jonano | I'm gonna finance an article essay called: | 08:08 |
| Jonano | "How to start your own biotech laboratory in your garage", for 30$ | 08:09 |
| Jonano | I will use this: www.constant-content.com | 08:09 |
| archels | Yes, you already mentioned that. Do you think you'll get much quality from a generic writer's house on such a specific topic, which (to me) would appear to require quite some know-how? | 08:10 |
| Jonano | or maybe there is a better article title | 08:10 |
| Jonano | archels I don't know, I will select someone first from the site | 08:10 |
| archels | You could always ask kanzure. I bet he'll do it for free. | 08:11 |
| Jonano | there must a way to select people | 08:11 |
| Jonano | if kanzure wants, he is welcome to, I could pay him | 08:11 |
| archels | kanzure: business opportunities opening up!!! | 08:11 |
| archels | mad cash, yo. | 08:12 |
| kanzure | i am so tempted to troll | 08:12 |
| archels | Join me; it's fun. | 08:12 |
| Jonano | I request dignity ! | 08:14 |
| archels | Sorry, you'll have to earn it first. | 08:14 |
| Jonano | you don't know me | 08:14 |
| archels | I've known you for upwards of 100 lines on this channel alone. | 08:15 |
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| archels | 323, to be precise. | 08:16 |
| Jonano | you don't treat people accordingly | 08:16 |
| archels | Admittedly some of those were repeats, but that's your fault. | 08:16 |
| Jonano | a human being is not limited to IRC | 08:17 |
| archels | I was getting to that. | 08:17 |
| Jonano | kanzure do you want the money or not | 08:17 |
| Jonano | because I want to be fast | 08:18 |
| Jonano | and so I will use a web site for that | 08:18 |
| Jonano | I wont beg you | 08:18 |
| Jonano | you see nobody is motivated enough | 08:19 |
| kanzure | pay me $3000. | 08:19 |
| Jonano | you are insulting me | 08:19 |
| kanzure | no | 08:19 |
| Jonano | I will use constant-content.com, because they ask for 30$, so thank you | 08:20 |
| archels | I expect for $3000 you'll get an article that's 100 times better in quality than what you'll get for $30. | 08:20 |
| Jonano | this is logic | 08:20 |
| archels | Common sense, really. | 08:20 |
| Jonano | but I dont trust kanzure intelligence enough for this | 08:20 |
| archels | Yeah, I'm not so sure about that either. I heard he has to log every conversation he has in a textfile, or he'll forget it ever took place. | 08:21 |
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| Jonano | it does not surprise me | 08:22 |
| Jonano | asking 3000$ for an article without providing details goes in that direction | 08:23 |
| kanzure | do you want details? | 08:23 |
| archels | Jonano, shouldn't you be providing the details? | 08:23 |
| Jonano | yes, provide it | 08:24 |
| Jonano | kanzure, I dont see you as a friend, but rather as a competitor | 08:25 |
| Jonano | and you are not ready to write an article worth 3000$ | 08:26 |
| Jonano | and I dont have the money, so we are in a bad world | 08:27 |
| Jonano | I'll start small, slowly | 08:27 |
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| Jonano | you judge people being not honest, but I can call you a crook now, with your kind of requests | 08:29 |
| Jonano | this is not the way we do business | 08:29 |
| kanzure | you asked me how much i'd ask for, so i told you | 08:30 |
| Jonano | right | 08:31 |
| Jonano | continue to believe in you | 08:31 |
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| kanzure | hurrah | 08:50 |
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| Utopiah | ridiculous, mildly entertaining | 08:58 |
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| Utopiah | http://www.ladyada.net/make/bedazzler/ | 09:42 |
| kanzure | what is this? http://eit.europa.spigit.com/Page/Home | 09:51 |
| kanzure | why are people dumping money into this http://lifeboat.com/ex/donor.dollar.list?background=white | 09:54 |
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| kanzure | http://aws.amazon.com/free/ | 10:08 |
| Utopiah | nice | 10:11 |
| dbolser | yeah, its pretty sweet | 10:11 |
| Utopiah | but how do you qualify as "new user"? | 10:11 |
| kanzure | space mission summary graph http://pics.livejournal.com/mi3ch/pic/00c8zzh7 | 10:15 |
| dbolser | kanzure: nice | 10:16 |
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| kanzure | transvision conference is over http://giulioprisco.blogspot.com/2010/10/transvision-2010-october-22-24-2010.html | 10:46 |
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| kanzure | diybio-bangalore http://chaaraka.blogspot.com/2010/10/diybio-gets-little-more-localbangalore.html | 10:56 |
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| kanzure | codeshepherd: just saw your blog post :) | 10:59 |
| kanzure | updated: http://bit.ly/diybionews | 10:59 |
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| kanzure | http://www.simbiosys.com/ just called me. | 11:55 |
| kanzure | http://cryofreedom.ru/ | 11:58 |
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| Utopiah | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOwcDr-A3to#t=57m on uploading | 12:32 |
| Utopiah | Learning Control for Production Machines http://www.lecopro.org | 12:33 |
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| kanzure | ben goertzel podcast thing. http://singularityblog.singularitysymposium.com/ben-goertzel-on-singularity-1-on-1/ | 14:02 |
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| kanzure | has anyone seen latex being used on top of blueprints? | 14:37 |
| jrayhawk | As a separate layer? TeX isn't really made for CAD, but I imagine it would be trivial to compile them as layers in a PDF. | 14:43 |
| kanzure | right.. | 14:44 |
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| kanzure | QuantumG: this guy is awesome | 15:39 |
| kanzure | QuantumG: <3 | 15:39 |
| QuantumG | yeah, we're all fanboys of dennis | 15:41 |
| kanzure | who is this guy | 15:42 |
| kanzure | you claim he has money? doesn't that make him dangerous | 15:42 |
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| QuantumG | he sold a company to EADS Astrium | 15:47 |
| QuantumG | Orbital Recovery Corporation | 15:47 |
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| kanzure | jonathan marsden needs to get me the reprap wiki database | 15:58 |
| kanzure | what's the other version of mendel? not tim's but uh.. | 15:58 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: can we make piny into an aggregator for multiple projects? | 15:59 |
| kanzure | er, uh | 15:59 |
| kanzure | i mean, i'm going to show you a ui shortly | 15:59 |
| kanzure | then you'll yell at me for the amount of work involved | 15:59 |
| kanzure | and then you might say yes | 15:59 |
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| kanzure | i think the 'aggregator' part might be a bit much, but arguably it's useful in hardware projects | 16:04 |
| kanzure | i.e. projects that are separately revisioned but an overall wiki needs to be aggregated together | 16:05 |
| kanzure | i guess that's what branches are for. | 16:05 |
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| jrayhawk | What's their repository model, and how is it supposed to relate to their wiki model? | 16:21 |
| kanzure | reprap has their svn repo, and a giant mediawiki installation that is kind of separated (but it shouldn't be) | 16:22 |
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| kanzure | so the idea would be to store the wiki state with whatever individual project | 16:22 |
| kanzure | and move their users away from using mediawiki | 16:22 |
| kanzure | and to some other nebulous platform based on git and project hosting | 16:23 |
| kanzure | (sebastien is really worried about all of his precious users migrating to thingiverse all the time) | 16:23 |
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| timschmidt | I'm not sure killing the wiki (or moving it into git) is the right fix... | 16:23 |
| jrayhawk | why haven't you crushed thingiverse 'neath your overmotivated jackboot | 16:23 |
| kanzure | using mediawiki for project development isn't ideal either :P | 16:24 |
| timschmidt | a nice Step 1: would be to be able suck all the data out of thingiverse and shove it into a git repo. | 16:24 |
| kanzure | timschmidt: got that. | 16:24 |
| timschmidt | ok | 16:24 |
| kanzure | ack where did my thingiverse scraper script go | 16:25 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: because i want to do it right | 16:25 |
| timschmidt | it might even be worth sharing that with the thingiverse folks. If, in the future, they implement it on their side, we could just 'git clone' the whole site, that would be nice | 16:25 |
| kanzure | but zach has repeatedly expressed no desire to do that | 16:25 |
| timschmidt | ok | 16:25 |
| * timschmidt didn't know | 16:26 | |
| kanzure | otherwise yes | 16:26 |
| jrayhawk | Anyway, there are a couple aggregation models; I've made 'meta' ikiwikis for a few other folks based on some fancy recursive linking and refreshing. If source information isn't necessarily available, then it's also possible to get ikiwiki to aggregate RSS et al. | 16:26 |
| kanzure | thingiverse scraper http://github.com/kanzure/skdb/blob/master/clients/thingiverse.py | 16:26 |
| timschmidt | Step 2: I think sebastien has pegged, in that we need something like a thingiverse frontend for a backend git repo | 16:26 |
| jrayhawk | Like creating a 'planet' in pure Ikiwiki is actually dirt simple. | 16:26 |
| timschmidt | whether that encompases the wiki as well, I think is optional | 16:27 |
| kanzure | while i agree with you, sebastien is super-concerned about "regular" users being able to use this for some reason | 16:27 |
| kanzure | he's convinced that their drive-by file uploads are of some utility | 16:27 |
| timschmidt | :-/ | 16:27 |
| kanzure | maybe he's totally wrong | 16:28 |
| timschmidt | I think they are... | 16:28 |
| timschmidt | but only peripherally | 16:28 |
| jrayhawk | A low barrier to entry is a good way of getting people involved in communities. | 16:28 |
| kanzure | right now he thinks mediawiki is a low barrier to entry | 16:28 |
| kanzure | although i think he admits thingiverse is even lower (since it's just a file upload button) | 16:28 |
| timschmidt | right | 16:28 |
| timschmidt | side note... it might be interesting to integrate this with the cloudscad stuff | 16:29 |
| kanzure | :P http://sourceforge.net/projects/filebin/ | 16:29 |
| kanzure | yeah.. i have thingiverse's stl2pov scripts if that matters | 16:29 |
| kanzure | but webgl is the new hotness | 16:29 |
| kanzure | so anyway, | 16:30 |
| kanzure | is having a wiki aggregator really necessary here? | 16:30 |
| timschmidt | I don't think so | 16:30 |
| jrayhawk | It would depend on your usage model. | 16:30 |
| kanzure | for instance, let's say you have documentation in your parametric mendel repo | 16:30 |
| timschmidt | yes | 16:30 |
| kanzure | wait, do you? | 16:30 |
| timschmidt | not really | 16:30 |
| timschmidt | if I did, it would live in .txt files, or the scad files themselves | 16:30 |
| kanzure | who is that other person with a mendel version? there's apparently some documentation on the mediawiki install? | 16:31 |
| timschmidt | prusa | 16:31 |
| timschmidt | yes | 16:31 |
| kanzure | prusa, righto. | 16:31 |
| timschmidt | although not much ATM | 16:31 |
| timschmidt | he keeps changing things :) | 16:31 |
| kanzure | does it reallly matter if prusa's docss are on the same mediawiki installation as wiki.reprap.org ? | 16:31 |
| kanzure | i suppose it's nice to see a list of all of the changes everyone is making (but that's just RSS aggregation) | 16:32 |
| kanzure | and it's nice to have one login to viewing all of that content? | 16:32 |
| timschmidt | so this gets into project development workflow | 16:32 |
| timschmidt | which I am all about discussing | 16:32 |
| timschmidt | but none of the core devs are | 16:32 |
| kanzure | maybe i can make it a criteria of http://gadaprize.org/ | 16:33 |
| timschmidt | which, to me, says we do whatever the fuck we want, implement it, and they get to deal with the fallout. | 16:33 |
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| timschmidt | so... | 16:33 |
| timschmidt | my dream workflow | 16:34 |
| kanzure | i'm still not sure who uses wiki.reprap.org or why | 16:34 |
| jrayhawk | i am not sure it's kosher to announce a prize for a thing you're well prepared to claim | 16:34 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: i meant add it as a criteria point | 16:35 |
| kanzure | the other criteria haven't been met yet :P | 16:35 |
| kanzure | http://reprap.org/wiki/Special:RecentChanges | 16:36 |
| timschmidt | I'd like to see maintainers for the various aspects of the project... a doc maintainer, an electronics maintainer, CAD maintainer, etc. Each working within branches of a git repo that periodically gets re-synced. A.k.a. the Linux model. | 16:36 |
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| kanzure | jules is here! stop being productive | 16:37 |
| jblake | i'm not sure if that's a compliment or not | 16:38 |
| kanzure | timschmidt: i'm inclined to say, forget about sebastien, and just do whatever we need to do | 16:38 |
| kanzure | he probably installed the wiki be cause he doesn't understand workflows | 16:38 |
| timschmidt | but for drive-by uploads and wiki edits, ikiwiki + a big file upload button ala thingiverse sounds great | 16:38 |
| kanzure | where should all that stuff go | 16:39 |
| timschmidt | into a /misc_crap folder in the repo | 16:39 |
| timschmidt | :P | 16:39 |
| kanzure | by anonymous committers? | 16:39 |
| timschmidt | actually, now that I think about it, the thingiverse clone should have it's own repo | 16:40 |
| kanzure | for development work? | 16:40 |
| kanzure | that's why i've been thinking of piny | 16:40 |
| timschmidt | no, serious development would happen in the repos of serious developers. | 16:40 |
| timschmidt | :) | 16:40 |
| jrayhawk | re: reprap developers who won't get with the program: keep in mind that the only reason many projects switch to git is because some guy winds up running a git-svn gateway and everyone slowly winds up doing everything through it | 16:41 |
| jrayhawk | like postgres, for instance | 16:41 |
| timschmidt | although I have just started thinking about this... so I might not have the best handle on the perfect situation yet. | 16:41 |
| kanzure | jsmiller was doing that git-svn gateway but i don't know if it's still maintained.. he seemed to give up? | 16:41 |
| jrayhawk | it's not a "hey can we migrate to git", it's "over half of this community has already migrated to git, why do we still support SVN" | 16:42 |
| timschmidt | reprap is already in that situation | 16:42 |
| jrayhawk | jsmiller wanted permission | 16:42 |
| kanzure | jsmiller isn't a core developer, he was doing a drive-by git-svn gateway ;) | 16:42 |
| timschmidt | only the folks running reprap SVN have stuffed everything _and_ the kitchen sink into it | 16:42 |
| kanzure | except the mediawiki database | 16:43 |
| kanzure | so.. one giant .git for reprap, or multiple sub-projects on this github/thingiverse platform? | 16:43 |
| timschmidt | repsnapper was the same way. We ditched the 1Gb+ svn repo and moved to a 4Mb git repo | 16:43 |
| timschmidt | kanzure: thinking about that | 16:43 |
| kanzure | there are certainly projects *for* reprap that should be in separate repos | 16:44 |
| timschmidt | like? | 16:44 |
| jblake | Separate git repos is almost certainly preferable unless there's a large degree of interconnectedness; it's a pity that git submodules are sort of terrible. | 16:44 |
| kanzure | uh i mean 3d objects | 16:44 |
| timschmidt | ah | 16:44 |
| kanzure | so fork out the firmware into a separate repo? yes/no? | 16:45 |
| timschmidt | well right. I think 'printable objects' should be it's own repo | 16:45 |
| kanzure | my gut instinct is yes but everyone i've talked with is HORRIFIED by a separate firmware repo | 16:45 |
| jrayhawk | Well, depends on your idea of 'separate'. I think linux-2.6 is a better model than xorg. | 16:45 |
| timschmidt | ala thingiverse | 16:45 |
| kanzure | my idea of separate is "Congratulations, you have a reprap-like frame with equipment. Now choose your firmware, you have xyz release for this one, or this, or .." | 16:46 |
| timschmidt | sure | 16:46 |
| kanzure | yeah this is stupid. if firmware is separated out, the firmware documentation should be in the firmware repo | 16:46 |
| kanzure | screw wiki aggregators | 16:46 |
| timschmidt | right | 16:46 |
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| timschmidt | after thinking about it a bit, I think many small repos is the way to go. | 16:47 |
| kanzure | so joe/jules, how can we hammer piny into this? | 16:48 |
| timschmidt | kanzure: mccoyn is a fellow reprap dev. He's designed the electronics and firmware I use. | 16:48 |
| mccoyn | Hullo | 16:48 |
| kanzure | logs: http://gnusha.org/logs/2010-10-26.log | 16:48 |
| * kanzure will bbl (family happens to be down the street..) | 16:49 | |
| kanzure | hint: don't tell them where you live | 16:49 |
| timschmidt | mccoyn: basically we're (kanzure, sebastien, myself, and lots of others apparently) are re-imagining the reprap dev process... from workflow to wiki to git to thingiverse | 16:50 |
| jblake | We'll probably do the best work on piny when we're given detailed scripts of desired-user-interactions. So, tell us what you want piny to do to make this work for you. | 16:50 |
| jrayhawk | Sounds like you want to things, one of them being a wiki-like interface to documentation and possibly issue tracking, and the other is a means of accepting new files semi-anonymously. | 16:50 |
| jrayhawk | s/to things/two things | 16:50 |
| timschmidt | jrayhawk: sounds correct | 16:50 |
| timschmidt | I'm not sure we need to do our own git hosting though... | 16:52 |
| timschmidt | what's wrong with github? | 16:52 |
| jrayhawk | The semi-anonymous file submission is a complicated issue. It'd depend on what sort of person you're targetting. Technical people like either discussing patchsets on mailing lists or setting up a cloned repo for those changes to be shared, but nontechnical people would probably be happiest with 'upload one or more files for the world to look at', which requires vastly more infrastructure work. | 16:53 |
| timschmidt | jrayhawk: we're talking about the second case | 16:53 |
| jrayhawk | The piny/ikiwki model is probably not useful for that, so we'd be effectively starting from scratch in terms of design and architecture. | 16:55 |
| timschmidt | :-/ | 16:55 |
| jrayhawk | So the question becomes 'what do producers want to happen' and 'what do consumers want to happen' | 16:55 |
| jrayhawk | Consumers being either collaborators or passive users. | 16:55 |
| jblake | I could imagine a separate piny repo for random uploads that gets submoduled in the main repo, which would effectively reduce the kinds of damage that random uploaders could do. | 16:56 |
| timschmidt | the random uploads can be their own repo without any submoduling... | 16:56 |
| jrayhawk | Well, the real question is 'why have it be in a git repo at all' at that point. | 16:56 |
| timschmidt | it can be completely separate | 16:56 |
| jblake | Joe: Fair enough. | 16:57 |
| jblake | Tim: The submodule would just be an ease-of-use step for the "regular" users. | 16:57 |
| jrayhawk | Hmm. I guess if we just want a low-barrier-to-entry packaging system, forcing users into git repos might not be a bad idea. We'd just have a cgi script that takes one or more files, possibly in containers (tar, zip, rar, etc.) and unpacks them and commits them naively, and then make that git repo available as either a git repo or as a zip or tar.gz snapshot. | 16:59 |
| jrayhawk | Users have the option of either using that cgi or git directly. | 17:00 |
| timschmidt | jrayhawk: exactly | 17:00 |
| timschmidt | that way grabbing > a handful of files doesn't require scraping the website. | 17:01 |
| timschmidt | as it currently does with thingiverse | 17:01 |
| jrayhawk | But it'd probably be important to establish what-all this packaging system would be for. There's a strong risk that we'd wind up reimplementing a grown-up packaging system in a hacky, awful way. | 17:02 |
| jblake | remember to store everything in ar archives | 17:02 |
| jrayhawk | haha | 17:03 |
| timschmidt | I don't think anything more sophisticated than 'let me clone the entire site' is necessary | 17:04 |
| timschmidt | so maybe git isn't the best way to do that | 17:04 |
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| jrayhawk | Well, it'd be tons and tons of tiny git repos. | 17:04 |
| jrayhawk | We'd be able to have an aggregator that at least lists changes without too much trouble. | 17:05 |
| timschmidt | why not one big one? | 17:05 |
| jblake | Cloning giant repos really sucks for people who only want to work on one thing. | 17:05 |
| timschmidt | currently thingiverse has no support at all for tracking changes | 17:05 |
| jrayhawk | Dealing with subdirectory-specific user authorization is not particularly workable. | 17:06 |
| jblake | Small repos is also nice because it turns out that git bundles are a nice way to ship around patchsets or packages as single files. | 17:06 |
| timschmidt | true | 17:06 |
| jblake | At least, among git users. | 17:06 |
| jrayhawk | timschmidt: have you played with Ikiwiki before? | 17:08 |
| timschmidt | I've looked at it | 17:08 |
| jrayhawk | Hmm. I guess we can probably do all that with less than 20 hours work. | 17:12 |
| timschmidt | hahaha | 17:12 |
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| kanzure | the way i was doing anonymous uploads was a new branch... meh. | 17:14 |
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| kanzure | don't let me be the party pooper | 17:42 |
| jrayhawk | It's not particularly easy to do branch-specific authorization, either. | 17:44 |
| kanzure | no, i was thinking one-time created branches by anonymous users or something, then the repo maintainer gets to do whatever with those, but this is a bad architecture overall | 17:46 |
| kanzure | anyway, thingiverse doesn't have random uploaders, everyone registers | 17:48 |
| kanzure | same with github | 17:48 |
| kanzure | if they can't be bothered to register, then they should just email me/someone the files to deal with | 17:48 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: jules was saying something would require a lot of re-architecting, does that still hold? | 17:48 |
| jblake | what was i saying needed rearchitecting? | 17:49 |
| kanzure | piny | 17:49 |
| jblake | oh that's not really what i meant | 17:49 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: also "what this packaging system is for"- sounds like skdb to me (just, without the metadata / useful bits in place yet) | 17:49 |
| jblake | piny is open to getting new features and filling new needs; we just would need to know with high precision what usecases are desired | 17:50 |
| kanzure | sure, ok. | 17:50 |
| kanzure | that's actually kind of hard to give :) | 17:52 |
| kanzure | cgit/ikiwiki don't seem to be integrated much? | 17:54 |
| jrayhawk | not particularly. I intend to work on that. | 17:54 |
| kanzure | possibly something about a main piny-view-of-everything-hosted-here, or whatever- a sense of "Hey, there are lots of different projects in this community" accessible through the same site | 17:54 |
| kanzure | github doesn't actually have that (they just do some social networking bullshit and RSS aggregation) | 17:55 |
| kanzure | thingiverse.com does | 17:55 |
| jrayhawk | We don't really need much architecture, here. The main new feature would be a completely independant cgi that does something like 'either create new repo or clone existing one, take multipart upload, unpack anything that needs unpacking, shove in repo, push to bare repo owned by user uploading, redirect user there', which isn't too hard. | 17:55 |
| jblake | i sort of want a better hierarchy so you can group projects in broad categories | 17:55 |
| jrayhawk | We already have most of the infrastructure to make that happen. | 17:56 |
| jrayhawk | Convincing Jules or somebody else to make web interfaces for some of this crap is going to be hard. | 17:56 |
| jrayhawk | It will have to involve knives. | 17:56 |
| kanzure | turns out i have a web ui done for this | 17:57 |
| kanzure | HOW CONVENIENT | 17:57 |
| timschmidt | jrayhawk: that sounds about right | 17:57 |
| jblake | knives do make an excellent ui | 17:57 |
| jrayhawk | I'm going to head off to eat. | 17:57 |
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| kanzure | damn you jules | 17:58 |
| kanzure | what's his issue with waiting for us to get done | 17:59 |
| timschmidt | kanzure: where is this web ui? | 17:59 |
| kanzure | this ui was done by a friend who was making a thingiverse killer more than a year ago | 17:59 |
| kanzure | he kinda specializes in consumer-friendly webapps | 17:59 |
| timschmidt | ok | 17:59 |
| kanzure | i'm trying to get him to email me the screenshots atm | 18:00 |
| kanzure | but anyway.. | 18:00 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: there seems to be a need for some way to manage the "main" piny site for all the hosted repos on the site, is this implemented yet? | 18:01 |
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| kanzure | elevenarms' thingiverse clone.. thing | 18:13 |
| kanzure | http://github.com/elevenarms/wrkbench/ | 18:13 |
| kanzure | (he just made it non-private) | 18:13 |
| kanzure | gee i wish required gems were written down | 18:18 |
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| timothyschmidt | ok, just got done talking with sebastien | 19:05 |
| kanzure | what's up | 19:05 |
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| timothyschmidt | not too much, just clarified my idea of what he was looking for. | 19:06 |
| kanzure | will you type some notes out? | 19:06 |
| timothyschmidt | definitely | 19:06 |
| kanzure | let's hear it :) | 19:07 |
| timothyschmidt | he said he'd email me with his notes shortly | 19:07 |
| timothyschmidt | I will flesh them out a lot | 19:07 |
| kanzure | haha he says that all the time but never does | 19:07 |
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| timothyschmidt | :) | 19:07 |
| timothyschmidt | ok, give me a second to unload this tray of parts, and I'll start typing | 19:07 |
| * timothyschmidt has 10 repraps worth of parts in his house at the moment | 19:08 | |
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| kanzure | do you name your repraps? | 19:09 |
| timothyschmidt | after Dickens characters | 19:10 |
| timothyschmidt | I'm unloading Nicholas Nickelbot at the moment | 19:10 |
| timothyschmidt | :D | 19:10 |
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| timothyschmidt | ok, unloaded | 19:13 |
| timothyschmidt | alright... sebastien's primary concern (and I agree with him) is that for all the current workflows - git, driveby uploads, wiki, etc - there is no central clearinghouse, no single point of convergence, no watercooler. So development that happens here doesn't get noticed there, and vice versa. | 19:15 |
| kanzure | having both mailing lists and forums doesn't quite help | 19:15 |
| timothyschmidt | agreed | 19:16 |
| timothyschmidt | but the point stands | 19:16 |
| timothyschmidt | Thingiverse solves this by posting every new file with a big picture on the front page | 19:16 |
| kanzure | (well, there's mail2forum gateways, but that wouldn't help) | 19:16 |
| timothyschmidt | reprap.org doesn't (yet) | 19:16 |
| kanzure | was that all | 19:17 |
| timothyschmidt | we have a super-diverse group of users / developers, so we can't exactly ask everyone to do all their development in git. Some people who may be geniuses also happen to be 50 year old machinists who can't handle CLI. | 19:18 |
| timothyschmidt | that was the gist of it | 19:18 |
| timothyschmidt | there's certainly room for a LOT of improvement in the wiki situation | 19:18 |
| timothyschmidt | but mostly it's a lack of a feedback loop that's killing us | 19:19 |
| kanzure | web guis handle git just fine | 19:19 |
| timothyschmidt | right. | 19:19 |
| timothyschmidt | So we need that | 19:19 |
| kanzure | although github isn't a good example of that | 19:19 |
| kanzure | i mean, in terms of editing files over a web interface | 19:19 |
| timothyschmidt | right | 19:20 |
| timothyschmidt | make sense? | 19:20 |
| kanzure | sure. | 19:21 |
| timothyschmidt | something like the current blog aggregator that also inclued git commits from all the various repos, thingiverse / reprap.org / our thingiverse killer part uploads, wiki edits, etc. would be amazing | 19:23 |
| kanzure | ok. but would you be satisfied with an rss aggregator? | 19:23 |
| timothyschmidt | I think it would be a big step in the right direction... but there's room for a lot more | 19:28 |
| timothyschmidt | what do you want to get out of this? | 19:28 |
| timothyschmidt | sebastien's ready to dump mediawiki for git / ikiwiki / skdb | 19:28 |
| timothyschmidt | but we still need the aggregation | 19:28 |
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| kanzure | timothyschmidt: i want an open source hardware project hosting site that doesn't suck and is architectured well | 19:33 |
| timothyschmidt | ok, like sf.net (without the massive amounts of suck) for hardware / software projects | 19:34 |
| timothyschmidt | ? | 19:34 |
| kanzure | primarily for hardware projects, software development infrastructure is pretty well developed | 19:35 |
| jrayhawk | "like sf.net but without the suck" is exactly the project description for piny | 19:35 |
| kanzure | "like gitorious without the suck" is the new "like sf.net" | 19:35 |
| kanzure | (not really) | 19:35 |
| timothyschmidt | ok, so reprap would be essentially the test case for this site? | 19:36 |
| jrayhawk | Partially. | 19:36 |
| kanzure | reprap is an ecosystem of open source hardware projects (unless we're talking about the svn repo proper) | 19:36 |
| kanzure | (and even then it's a mini-ecosystem) | 19:36 |
| timothyschmidt | right | 19:37 |
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| kanzure | i also think that the reprap community is presently not well served the way things are | 19:38 |
| kanzure | (duh) | 19:38 |
| timothyschmidt | right | 19:38 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: see the questions from just after you left for eats | 19:38 |
| timothyschmidt | OK, I will take a look at piny tonight, and write up my thoughts with some more detail, about what extra features we may or may not need, specific user interaction cases, etc. | 19:39 |
| timothyschmidt | Detailed report for you guys tomorrow | 19:39 |
| kanzure | fyi http://piny.be/piny-web/ | 19:39 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: i should have called it pinycad | 19:39 |
| kanzure | just to piss off the tinycad guy | 19:39 |
| timothyschmidt | all I get is: Holy Moses! | 19:39 |
| jrayhawk | that's not a particularly useful site; better details are http://piny.be/piny-code/architecture/needed_user_facing_infrastructure/ | 19:39 |
| kanzure | timothyschmidt: one of the links goes to https://secure.piny.be/cgit/piny-web.git/ | 19:40 |
| timothyschmidt | ok | 19:40 |
| jrayhawk | you can feel free to play around with it | 19:40 |
| timothyschmidt | awesome | 19:40 |
| jrayhawk | kanzure: yes, there's a cursory central configuration management system, now. | 19:40 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: oh, btw, what about the "playing nicely with pre-existing repos" | 19:41 |
| kanzure | ok cool | 19:41 |
| kanzure | but does that include a public-facing centralized web page .. thing? | 19:41 |
| jrayhawk | 'pinyconfig' allows you to tweak denynonfastforwards so you can overwrite whatever crap i shove in there as an initial commit. | 19:41 |
| jrayhawk | I don't really understand the question. | 19:41 |
| kanzure | i guess having a "central all-those-darn-repos webpage" on by default would realy suck | 19:41 |
| kanzure | well. | 19:42 |
| kanzure | *really | 19:42 |
| kanzure | uh. | 19:42 |
| kanzure | http://thingiverse.com/ | 19:42 |
| kanzure | imagine each of those "things" are a separate git repo | 19:42 |
| jrayhawk | Okay. So you'd want a way of categorizing and indexing those? | 19:42 |
| kanzure | this frontpage is an index that needs to be built (preferably dynamically..) | 19:42 |
| jrayhawk | That's certainly doable. | 19:43 |
| kanzure | some way of saying "hello public, here's an overview of what is on this server" | 19:43 |
| timothyschmidt | that would be asesome | 19:43 |
| timothyschmidt | awesome even | 19:43 |
| kanzure | i guess this doesn't need to be piny-specific | 19:43 |
| kanzure | but it feels like it is? | 19:43 |
| jrayhawk | Doesn't matter either way to me. | 19:43 |
| kanzure | obviously i'd throw in an rss aggregator on the front page, if there was a front page like that | 19:43 |
| kanzure | which would carry over the html template to the sub-repos or something, whenever you get arouund tooooooo iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiikwiki/cgit integration | 19:44 |
| kanzure | fuck this | 19:44 |
| kanzure | why can't my keyboard problems be fixed already | 19:44 |
| jrayhawk | perhaps you should replace your keyboard? | 19:44 |
| timothyschmidt | lol | 19:44 |
| QuantumG | probably just clean it | 19:45 |
| timothyschmidt | I can't agree more, a thingiverse-style front page + rss would be an amazing start at what we need | 19:45 |
| kanzure | it's not a dirt issue, something is wrong with my kernel (or something) | 19:46 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: if that "hello world, here's what's on this site" page was a part of piny, how would that go? | 19:47 |
| jrayhawk | Does weird stuff show up in dmesg when you have these keyboard problems? | 19:50 |
| jrayhawk | I've seen screwy stuff happen with the key repeat rate when hotplugging ps/2 keyboards before. | 19:50 |
| jrayhawk | It might be that you have a loose connection somewhere. | 19:50 |
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| jrayhawk | Re: front page: it'd probably be a cron-generated page with both a project index and an aggregated list of recent changes until the project list gets too large. | 19:52 |
| jrayhawk | Not sure if I should aggregate Ikiwiki changes or git changes. | 19:53 |
| jrayhawk | They're strictly one and the same at the moment, but I would like to actually support Ikiwiki subdirectories soon. | 19:53 |
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| jrayhawk | re: keyboard: it'd probably be the main connector if anything, so you might just want to yank that out, clean, and reseat it. | 19:56 |
| jrayhawk | well, if it's easy. | 19:57 |
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| kanzure | jrayhawk: in dmesg "rtl8192_hw_wakeup(): RF Change in progress! schedule wake up task again" shows up >_< | 20:07 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: maybe instead of a cron-generated page it should be a separate "main.git" repo or something which defines the layout for the overall site, front page, other things like this? | 20:08 |
| jrayhawk | That'd be fine, too. I can even add you to that repo if you want to start mucking about. | 20:09 |
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| jrayhawk | well, could, if you were to make an account | 20:10 |
| kanzure | not sure what i'd do | 20:10 |
| jrayhawk | mister no-account | 20:10 |
| kanzure | seems like this is something that would be hard-coded into piny, but that feels icky. | 20:11 |
| kanzure | if it wasn't hardcoded, how would someone install/enable "rss aggregator on default index page" :P | 20:11 |
| jrayhawk | Well, that's what the cron script was for. | 20:12 |
| kanzure | why not just re-generate on each page load :P | 20:12 |
| kanzure | you're really against this aren't you | 20:12 |
| jrayhawk | I would prefer to have an at least slightly scalable solution. | 20:13 |
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| kanzure | you could probably convince me, but others would think it's absurd to use cron here | 20:13 |
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| jrayhawk | I care slightly about *what* they think I should implement. I do not care what they think about *how* I implement it. | 20:14 |
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| kanzure | timschmidt: wow, what? | 20:37 |
| kanzure | sebastien actually posted the notes | 20:38 |
| kanzure | (to om) | 20:38 |
| timschmidt | yup | 20:39 |
| timschmidt | I'm magical | 20:39 |
| timschmidt | :P | 20:39 |
| kanzure | http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/t/b6b858fff3505f5b | 20:39 |
| timschmidt | yup. he cc'd me | 20:40 |
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| kanzure | hi joshcryer | 20:58 |
| joshcryer | HEy | 20:58 |
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| --- Log closed Wed Oct 27 00:00:16 2010 | ||
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