| --- Log opened Mon Apr 02 00:00:17 2012 | ||
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| jrayhawk | "there was no tech to see if a tire store was open at nearby exits" cellular internet access and voice directory assistance are things what exist | 01:43 |
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| jrayhawk | re: singularity by 2040-2060: http://www.fhi.ox.ac.uk/reports/2008-3.pdf | 01:46 |
| jrayhawk | If transhumanism doesn't produce significant advances, a worst case projection sees humans being obsolete by 2070. | 01:47 |
| skorket | jrayhawk, point being that it's probably going to be within our lifetime | 01:49 |
| jrayhawk | Yeah. That's just a somewhat more reputable and in-depth reference than Kurzweil. | 01:52 |
| skorket | pretty amazing | 01:55 |
| strangewarp | I remember completely losing faith in regular people on the day that I saw a TIME poll where they asked their readers to predict the dates that a set of technologies were developed. | 02:06 |
| strangewarp | Human-level artificial intelligence, post-scarce resources, and immortality were all pushed back to the year 9999, which was the maximum value for the poll. | 02:06 |
| jrayhawk | bahaha | 02:06 |
| jrayhawk | "The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function." -- Albert Bartlett | 02:09 |
| skorket | bingo | 02:10 |
| skorket | I'm guilty of this as well | 02:10 |
| skorket | but I'm coming around | 02:10 |
| jrayhawk | (though, ironically, Bartlett is more obsessed with Malthusianism than singulitarianism | 02:10 |
| jrayhawk | +) | 02:10 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, | 02:11 |
| delinquentme | have you any stashes on graphene and creating 1 atom thick surfaces using just scotch tape? | 02:12 |
| delinquentme | hulu has AWESOME NOVA specials | 02:14 |
| katsmeow-afk | i have no cell internet because of cost, and voice directory assistance will not tell you what businesses are in a location | 02:24 |
| delinquentme | katsmeow-afk, you know google will search via text message right? | 02:25 |
| delinquentme | you can text it to google ( in keypad numbers ) | 02:25 |
| katsmeow-afk | text msg is a data plan, i have no data plan | 02:25 |
| delinquentme | with mcdonalds 15213 | 02:25 |
| delinquentme | ohhhh | 02:25 |
| delinquentme | =[ | 02:26 |
| katsmeow-afk | the phone books at one exit did not cover the adjacent exits | 02:26 |
| jrayhawk | katsmeow-afk: What's your carrier? | 02:26 |
| katsmeow-afk | at&t | 02:26 |
| jrayhawk | http://www.wireless.att.com/learn/articles-resources/disability-resources/411-assistance.jsp | 02:29 |
| jrayhawk | "4-1-1 Info can utilize your location to find a business near you. It also offers movie showtimes, turn-by-turn driving directions, reverse lookup, and business category search - all with access to live operators 24/7." | 02:29 |
| jrayhawk | Essentially "Use our minimum wage call center workers to look shit up on the internet for you" | 02:29 |
| katsmeow-afk | i had not considered pleading disability | 02:31 |
| jrayhawk | Uh, yeah, sorry, that's the first good description of the service I came across; the "exemption" part of that page was not something I intended to point out. | 02:32 |
| katsmeow-afk | ok, previously, when i asked for a phone number to a type of business, they said they did not have a way to look up that info | 02:33 |
| katsmeow-afk | they also said they could not recommend a business | 02:33 |
| katsmeow-afk | ergo, i got nothing | 02:34 |
| katsmeow-afk | so i never asked again | 02:34 |
| katsmeow-afk | even weeks ago, they could not tell me if something was close | 02:34 |
| katsmeow-afk | "i need the number for So&So", i have that in town1 and town2" "which is closer to me?" "i have no way to know that " | 02:35 |
| jrayhawk | Did... did you tell them where you were? | 02:35 |
| katsmeow-afk | no, and they didn't ask | 02:36 |
| katsmeow-afk | and my phone is old with no built-in gps | 02:36 |
| jrayhawk | Well, as near as I can tell, call-center employees aren't allowed to look up tower or GPS info, presumably for privacy protection. | 02:37 |
| katsmeow-afk | well, they also didn't know where the towns where | 02:37 |
| katsmeow-afk | neither did i | 02:37 |
| katsmeow-afk | i think the result is one must ask for each number separately at $1.99 each, and call them both | 02:37 |
| katsmeow-afk | stuff never works right here, it's because of humans | 02:38 |
| jrayhawk | Huh. Well, in theory there are third party directory assistance services that might presumably be less terrible, but I haven't actually tried any. | 02:39 |
| katsmeow-afk | it's unlikely 2070 is within my lifetime | 02:40 |
| jrayhawk | That might be for the best. I don't expect the singularity to be a particularly pleasant time to be human. | 02:43 |
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| fenn | i like the tupperware/pelican case construction method used for the air quality egg | 04:28 |
| Vicarious | 'morning | 04:33 |
| fenn | gosh, testosterone has such an undeserved bad reputation | 04:41 |
| fenn | "men are idiots, therefore we should ban testosterone!!!" | 04:41 |
| fenn | :( | 04:41 |
| bkero | women have testosterone too | 04:42 |
| ThomasEgi | we are better off banning idiots | 04:44 |
| ThomasEgi | put them all on a small island somewhere in the ocean.. | 04:44 |
| ThomasEgi | i'd suggest bouvet island | 04:45 |
| ThomasEgi | would make the world's highest population density of about 163 idiots per km² | 04:46 |
| ThomasEgi | 163 millions. sry | 04:46 |
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| kanzure | delinquentme: yep.. i do have stuff on graphene. http://heybryan.org/graphene.html | 06:50 |
| kanzure | nmz787: kurzweil is popular but not an ideal source to learn about technological singularities. for a partial refutation see http://heybryan.org/fernhout/ | 06:50 |
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| kanzure | that's a refutation of kurzweil.. not a singularity | 06:52 |
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| diginet | hallo | 07:27 |
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| diginet | so, I'm working on a project which involves the insert of an approximately 320 kDa protein. According to the literature, E. Coli, or even yeast isn't really suited to this, and the protein ends up being truncated, which severely inhibits the beneficial properties. Are there any favoured moder organisms/cell lines which would be suited to this that are also easy targets for transfection? I considered try algae, but thought | 07:34 |
| diginet | I would see if anyone more experienced had any other ideas | 07:34 |
| kanzure | do you mean the protein ends up truncated because ecoli doesn't usually make such large proteins, or because your plasmid and/or genomic modifications suck? | 07:41 |
| katsmeow-afk | fenn, i was absolutely not for banning testosterone, i didn't mean to imply that | 07:45 |
| diginet | kanzure, the latter | 07:48 |
| diginet | errr, former sorry | 07:48 |
| kanzure | i don't have any usual go-tos for large-protein-expression but yashgaroth and n_bentha might | 07:50 |
| diginet | algae seems like it would work well, but I don't know if things like BHK might be better suited. I'm playing with trying to synthesize spider silk proteins. AFAIK, the process for spinning them is fairly well understood, that is scientists can dissolve and reconstitute naturally produced silk and get it to have roughly the same propeties. Howoever, to date, I don't think anyone has gotten the proteins that make up the fi | 07:51 |
| diginet | bers to match the natural ones in quality | 07:51 |
| kanzure | diginet: if you idle in here for a while you will get some better answers | 07:52 |
| kanzure | also. is this a diy project? | 07:52 |
| diginet | yes | 07:52 |
| diginet | thanks for the suggestion, I'll stick around | 07:52 |
| diginet | on the subject of your asking if its DIY, do you know others attempting something similar? | 07:53 |
| diginet | (i.e is that why you asked, or were you just curious) | 07:53 |
| kanzure | sorta kinda. ParahSailin mentioned a spider silk project the other day? | 07:54 |
| kanzure | ParahSailin: ping | 07:54 |
| diginet | haha, great nick | 07:54 |
| diginet | spider silk is fascinating stuff | 07:54 |
| katsmeow-afk | i recall many times in the last 30 years people were working on this or that regarding silk | 07:54 |
| diginet | yeah, it's definitely been done, it just isn't as good as the real thing | 07:55 |
| kanzure | katsmeow-afk: most people have been doing the work in academic/institutional settings | 07:55 |
| * katsmeow-afk nods | 07:55 | |
| kanzure | it's about 100x better doing it on your own so you can do with the results as you please | 07:55 |
| katsmeow-afk | and change directions without permission | 07:55 |
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| diginet | I think the record for synthetic spider silk is 600 MPa or so, in breaking strength, which is 400 less than the average of 1000 for natural | 07:57 |
| diginet | well, for N Clavipes | 07:57 |
| katsmeow-afk | there's the guy who will know | 07:57 |
| diginet | have you guys heard of Darwin's Bark Spider? | 07:57 |
| kanzure | nope... tell it like a story? | 07:57 |
| diginet | haha, sure | 07:58 |
| n_bentha | isn't most of synthetic spider silk made using the genes of one of the weaker silks? | 07:58 |
| n_bentha | (darwin's is the strongest) | 07:58 |
| katsmeow-afk | diginet, yeas, i recall people trying to make a synthetic silk to put up against kevlar in everything from vests to space elevator | 07:58 |
| diginet | n_bentha, IIRC, most use N Clavipes, which is otherwise the best apart from Darwin's | 07:58 |
| diginet | it's a new species of spider that was discovered last year in the amazon river basin, it's dragline silk is like 3 times stronger than the best of any other known spider, and 10 times stronger than kevlar | 07:59 |
| diginet | too bad there's now way to get a specimen :( | 07:59 |
| diginet | *no | 07:59 |
| diginet | *its | 07:59 |
| n_bentha | WHY?!?! | 08:00 |
| diginet | sorry for my horrible typing | 08:00 |
| kanzure | diginet: why not just.. go there and get one? | 08:00 |
| diginet | why? well, save for travelling to the Amazon, how would I get on? | 08:00 |
| diginet | I live in Texas | 08:00 |
| kanzure | yes, that sounds like a plan to me | 08:00 |
| kanzure | i also live in texas | 08:00 |
| diginet | hahaha | 08:00 |
| kanzure | i'm in austin | 08:00 |
| diginet | cool, I'm in Houston | 08:00 |
| kanzure | ah have you met jacob or forrest yet? | 08:00 |
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| kanzure | they run the local diybio lab | 08:01 |
| diginet | no? but I'd like to! haha, just getting started with this thing | 08:01 |
| diginet | oh really? | 08:01 |
| diginet | sweet | 08:01 |
| Mariu | hey guys | 08:01 |
| kanzure | yeah man.. go find jacob shiach | 08:01 |
| n_bentha | diy lab in houston? | 08:01 |
| kanzure | i think they renamed to arclab or something | 08:01 |
| diginet | I'm actually a physicist by trade (well, I say "by trade" studying to be one in Uni) but Bio is a hobby of mine that I'd love to learn more about | 08:01 |
| * diginet looks it up | 08:01 | |
| n_bentha | http://www.txrxlabs.org/ | 08:02 |
| kanzure | i thought they moved out of txrx? | 08:02 |
| diginet | anyhow, I had this idea, I was toying around with tyrian purple (or rather, 6;6'-dibromoindigo) and was thinking, how badass would tyrian purple dyed spider silk be? lol | 08:03 |
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| diginet | obviously not practical, but hella cool, and the most absurdly expensive textile ever | 08:04 |
| kanzure | i haven't read much on spider silk production | 08:04 |
| kanzure | i know there's some protein but how do the silk sacs work? | 08:04 |
| diginet | (provided no way of manufacturing either is discovered) | 08:04 |
| diginet | well, it's actually quite simple | 08:04 |
| diginet | it basically works the same way synthetic fibers like nylon as spun | 08:05 |
| diginet | well, I say that, it's a little more complicated, but anyhow | 08:05 |
| katsmeow-afk | iirc, the silk problem is molecule alignment, which isn't an issue with nylon | 08:06 |
| diginet | basically, you take the proteins, there's two of them, and put them in a solvent. Then you extrude it out such that a strand is formed | 08:06 |
| kanzure | diginet: my only silk-relatd paper is this: | 08:06 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/Designing%20Spider%20Silk%20Genes%20for%20Materials%20Applications.pdf | 08:06 |
| kanzure | if you have a .tar.gz you could contribute to my collection.. that would be hot :) | 08:06 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/ | 08:06 |
| diginet | katsmeow-afk, yeah, that's true, I'm just saying they both are conceptually the same | 08:06 |
| n_bentha | the problem is the microfluidics | 08:06 |
| * katsmeow-afk nods | 08:06 | |
| diginet | kanzure, I have a TON of papers | 08:06 |
| diginet | well, they're not mine | 08:06 |
| kanzure | diginet: i'd like to have all of them | 08:06 |
| diginet | do you mean my collection, or stuff I've authored? | 08:07 |
| kanzure | collection | 08:07 |
| diginet | I have probably 200 GiBs of papers | 08:07 |
| n_bentha | and how there's a change in pH and hydration of the proteins as the silk is spun that confers the conformations of the proteins. | 08:07 |
| diginet | most aren't bio related | 08:07 |
| diginet | however | 08:07 |
| kanzure | that's fine | 08:07 |
| n_bentha | and it's affected by how fast the spider pulls out the fibers | 08:07 |
| diginet | I was also working of DIY diamond production | 08:07 |
| kanzure | diginet: you might enjoy these sections: | 08:07 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/longevity/ | 08:07 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/nanotech | 08:07 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/stem-cells/ | 08:07 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/ | 08:07 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/implants/ | 08:07 |
| diginet | I could do it for sure, provided I had the money | 08:07 |
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| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/microfluidics/ | 08:08 |
| diginet | the problem is, it needs a seed crystal, heteroepitaxy of of single crystalline diamond is only possible on plationoid metals, which obviate any benefit of not requiring diamond due to cost | 08:08 |
| diginet | *platinoid | 08:09 |
| katsmeow-afk | n_bentha, not that i have a clue, just a glancing familiarity with the issue, what about lining microtubes with a layer of bacteria, such that the proteins extruded within the tube cannot be turned wrong, and exit the tube the same way they exit the spider? | 08:09 |
| _Sketch_ | This may be silly. I'm looking for small cameras (< 1in), low-resolution, to mount to my sunglasses to make a thermal imaging system. Feasible? | 08:09 |
| kanzure | can't you just centrifuge the silk out? | 08:10 |
| diginet | I think the best method of forming the fiber would be electrospinning, it's cheap, simple, and reasonably accurate | 08:10 |
| diginet | purifying the protein is the easy part | 08:10 |
| diginet | the hard part is forming the fiber in a reliable way | 08:10 |
| kanzure | _Sketch_: yep sounds feasible to me.. fenn might know a specific camera to recommend | 08:10 |
| katsmeow-afk | sketch, try any lens-less "spycam" and an IR filter | 08:11 |
| n_bentha | katsmeow: i don't think that would work...it's more trouble changing the microenvironment of the silk-dope as it is spun | 08:11 |
| diginet | it's not like nylon, or what have you, it's a composite of two different proteins with a fairly complex structure. Luckily, if you coax them to behave in just the right way, they can sort of self-align | 08:11 |
| _Sketch_ | On that same note, are there any backless OLED devices I could apply to the lens of a sunglass? | 08:12 |
| diginet | not that I know of | 08:12 |
| katsmeow-afk | backless,, you doing overlays? | 08:12 |
| kanzure | _Sketch_: how about using a projector in the glasses? | 08:12 |
| _Sketch_ | yeah, I was going for overlay. | 08:12 |
| diginet | yeah, what kanzure said, I've looked at stuff like that, and the best solution I came up with was a tiny projector with half-silvered lenses | 08:13 |
| _Sketch_ | Woah, heh. | 08:13 |
| katsmeow-afk | grab a old 1/2 inch display from camcorder and use it as a projector onto the people side of your glasses | 08:13 |
| n_bentha | i made a presentation about it, hold on. | 08:13 |
| diginet | if you look around, there are some fairly reasonable tiny-ish LCDs or FLCDs which might work, just put an LED behind them | 08:13 |
| diginet | anyhow, spider silk is an awesome material, the only things cooler are CNTs, but spider silk has the advantage of not being potentially carcinogenic | 08:14 |
| katsmeow-afk | didn't some site last month have an article on diy overlays using a online service, cellphone, and a baseball cap? | 08:15 |
| diginet | plus, it doesn't require an expensive CVD reactor (although I have been working on a DIY one) | 08:15 |
| kanzure | most of the diamond synthesis methods i recall used a CVD | 08:15 |
| kanzure | or some sort of heat-intense growth method | 08:15 |
| n_bentha | http://www.smallfiles.org/download/243/Spider_Silk.pdf.html | 08:17 |
| diginet | the only ones worth it are CVD | 08:17 |
| katsmeow-afk | question: how is ruby related to diamond in structure and composition , is it a density and Si vs C composition thing? | 08:17 |
| _Sketch_ | I'm really surprised there aren't commercial backless OLED displays... | 08:17 |
| _Sketch_ | It seems like there'd be a demand for them, but maybe I'm crazy. | 08:18 |
| n_bentha | Al2O3:Cr = ruby | 08:18 |
| diginet | katsmeow-afk, ruby is corundum, which is fairly close in it's hardness (9 on the mohs scale) | 08:18 |
| _Sketch_ | What's the spider web/silk conversation about? | 08:18 |
| diginet | it's also a LOT easier to make | 08:18 |
| katsmeow-afk | i ask because i have seen a few diy ruby-growing projects, some making 1 inch diameter ruby crystals | 08:18 |
| kanzure | _Sketch_: DIY protein production. making spider silk. | 08:18 |
| diginet | you can use the very well undertood Czochralski process | 08:18 |
| _Sketch_ | Sweet. | 08:19 |
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| diginet | katsmeow-afk, where?!?! I've been looking for those forever! | 08:19 |
| diginet | _Sketch_, in case you didn't know, spider silk is an amazing material which is approx 3 times stronger than kevlar (well, that of N. Clavipes is, which is the most studied example, and the second strongest) | 08:19 |
| diginet | it also has amazing elasticity properties | 08:20 |
| katsmeow-afk | i also read a diy project trying to be commercial in Russia, where they use heat/presssure systems in large buildings, and offset the energy needs of the process by selling the heat to the building owner in winter | 08:20 |
| diginet | katsmeow-afk, yeah, that's the HPHT method, which isn't practical | 08:20 |
| katsmeow-afk | diginet, even going back to 1965(?) ARRL magazine QST | 08:20 |
| katsmeow-afk | they were growing for making ruby lasers | 08:20 |
| diginet | hmm, I was probably looking in the wrong places | 08:21 |
| diginet | I was looking a few months ago, for "diy czochralski process" and found nothing | 08:21 |
| katsmeow-afk | prolly, hence kansure's project to make an open magazine repository :-) | 08:21 |
| kanzure | magazine?? what the fuck | 08:22 |
| _Sketch_ | diginet: I vaguely knew that, but thanks for the memory jog and details. | 08:22 |
| katsmeow-afk | ok, article | 08:22 |
| kanzure | diginet: there's also #homecmos on this network | 08:22 |
| kanzure | article?? | 08:22 |
| kanzure | wtf | 08:22 |
| diginet | _Sketch_, no problem | 08:22 |
| kanzure | diginet: http://gnusha.org/skdb | 08:22 |
| * katsmeow-afk makes a note to bite kanzure | 08:22 | |
| diginet | kanzure, fascinating! yes, homecmos is something we NEED | 08:22 |
| kanzure | yep | 08:22 |
| diginet | that was my interest in diamond though, diamond is vastly superior to silicon, as a semiconductor | 08:22 |
| diginet | at the very least, it would be crucial for use as a heat spreader | 08:23 |
| diginet | I was working on enriching carbon, as isotopically pure carbon is something 50% better at heat conduction | 08:23 |
| diginet | the problem with diamond semiconductors is that n-type doping is very hard (or is it p? I don't remember) | 08:23 |
| _Sketch_ | I've been here less than thirty minutes and I'm already enthralled. ;) Might stick around. | 08:23 |
| diginet | haha | 08:24 |
| kanzure | _Sketch_: yes we try to be comprehensively awesome | 08:24 |
| diginet | I love this sort of place, I tell people about my ideas and they just assume its impossible | 08:24 |
| ThomasEgi | was that irony? | 08:24 |
| kanzure | we also have bodybuilders http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmTNtSs1UQY | 08:25 |
| diginet | as cliche as it sounds, anything which doesn't violate the laws of physics, is by definition possible, but if you assume it isn't you'll never get there | 08:25 |
| diginet | well, other people | 08:25 |
| kanzure | but also lab automation projects http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZY5IY5CZ1es&list=FL1sapBsRQ1__rgp7qWs0cow&index=8&feature=plpp_video | 08:25 |
| kanzure | dfjkldafjkl;fja fuck that link | 08:25 |
| kanzure | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZY5IY5CZ1es | 08:25 |
| diginet | anyhow, right now I'm focused on spider silk, I'm determined to make some | 08:26 |
| diginet | mostly because I want some samples of Darwin's bark spider, and seeing as how there's no chance in hell a university is going to send some random kid a specimen, I need to prove I'm not crazy :P | 08:27 |
| kanzure | _Sketch_: how'd you find us? | 08:27 |
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| n_bentha | diginet, did u see the pdf outlining spider silk? | 08:28 |
| diginet | n_bentha, oh yeah I downloaded it, but forgot to read it! brb | 08:28 |
| _Sketch_ | kanzure: Asked a genie | 08:29 |
| kanzure | _Sketch_: sounds tight | 08:29 |
| katsmeow-afk | well, in google, i am finding me saying in 2008 that i remember the QST article, but i am still not finding the article | 08:29 |
| _Sketch_ | but seriously a friend directed me here. | 08:29 |
| katsmeow-afk | i find mention of an ARRL contest involving communication by laser back then | 08:29 |
| n_bentha | let me know if u have any questions. i made that a year ago late one night--sorry it's not very polished or good. but the diagrams and citations should help | 08:31 |
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| diginet | n_bentha, that was amazing! | 08:32 |
| diginet | thank you so much | 08:32 |
| diginet | are you involved in this at a Uni? | 08:32 |
| diginet | (I saw U of Winnipeg mentioned) | 08:32 |
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| n_bentha | no, i am just interested in spider silk. lots of cool things could be done. | 08:34 |
| diginet | yes, well, cool to find someone else interested :) | 08:34 |
| diginet | here's one idea I had: culture the cells which produce the silk proteins in the spider's silk glands | 08:35 |
| diginet | though, somehow, I think it's not that simple :( | 08:35 |
| n_bentha | but...it seems like the bioengineering of silk (to incorporate other proteins into the structure) for medical applications is the way to go...unless they somehow get more strength of the silks and ramp up production so they can make clothes/fibers? | 08:35 |
| n_bentha | diginet: it's not making the proteins. it's how the environment of of the proteins in the dope changes | 08:36 |
| n_bentha | on p.19 i list a few of the changes in the ma gland | 08:36 |
| diginet | n_bentha, well yes, but one could build an artificial gland, what I'm referring to is the difficulty in producing high quality precursors | 08:37 |
| diginet | as I mentioned earlier, a problem with making the proteins in E. Coli is that they get truncated, I've been up to 250 kDa from E. Coli, which is the lower end of the range in natural silk, but the average is much higher at 300-320 kDa | 08:38 |
| n_bentha | Ah. I had a crazy idea: extract the glands, and put them in a bio-incubator/reactor (w/e it's called), so that you have them all living together in a system producing silk. | 08:38 |
| diginet | can that be. . .done? | 08:38 |
| kanzure | what are the requirements to keep those glands alive? | 08:38 |
| n_bentha | Yeah idk. I just was day-dreaming when that one popped into my head. | 08:39 |
| diginet | the problem is, you still have to farm the spiders to get the glands | 08:39 |
| kanzure | that's fine, spider farming sounds fun | 08:39 |
| diginet | well, except that like to eat each other | 08:39 |
| n_bentha | Probably the same as human organs? | 08:39 |
| n_bentha | Maybe fewer requirements. Lots of protein! They eat their silk and resuse it. | 08:39 |
| diginet | haha | 08:39 |
| kanzure | another option might be any insect that has a similar gland during its cocooning phase | 08:40 |
| kanzure | don't some caterpillars make silk? | 08:41 |
| diginet | well, basically from what I've read, the major methods proposed are: silkworms, high protein plants, microorganism-based, milk based (i.e. goats) | 08:41 |
| diginet | all have problems, I'm not a fan of the plant one though, the milk one less so | 08:41 |
| diginet | the silkworm one is doable, but impractical, silkworms require a lot to farm | 08:42 |
| n_bentha | yes kanzure. | 08:42 |
| n_bentha | they've made transgenic silkworms | 08:42 |
| diginet | yeah, at Notre Dame | 08:42 |
| n_bentha | but the silk isn't as good | 08:42 |
| diginet | yeah | 08:42 |
| diginet | the thing which was nice about the E Coli process was that it didn't require chromatography to purify the protein, the purification was actually really simple | 08:43 |
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| _Sketch_ | Gotta get to work. See you all later. | 08:44 |
| diginet | bye! | 08:44 |
| kanzure | work! bah | 08:44 |
| katsmeow-afk | i am still finding nothing on the QST article from the 60's, the best search terms i have is this : http://duckduckgo.com/?q=ruby+seed+temperature+growth | 08:44 |
| diginet | IMO, the ideal option would be something which excretes some sort of substance that can be easily harvested, but is easy to take care of (that is, NOT goats) | 08:44 |
| _Sketch_ | Lots of money for me! ;) | 08:44 |
| diginet | SELLOUT | 08:44 |
| diginet | just kidding :P | 08:44 |
| diginet | DON'T WORK FOR THE MAN, MAN | 08:45 |
| * _Sketch_ laughs. | 08:45 | |
| katsmeow-afk | the qst article laid out construction of the melt vat, heater, mechanicals, power supplies, everything | 08:45 |
| _Sketch_ | I actually enjoy it, and make decent money besides. Anyway...woosh | 08:45 |
| katsmeow-afk | oh well, technology lost | 08:45 |
| diginet | katsmeow-afk, thanks! perfect | 08:45 |
| diginet | _Sketch_, no, I totally see how thats possible, seeya | 08:46 |
| kanzure | _Sketch_: me too. i'm just being an angry irc user :) | 08:46 |
| * diginet 's room is on fire, but instead of dialing 911, he's going to ask his fellow IRCers what to do | 08:46 | |
| kanzure | diginet: what about paralyzed spiders? | 08:46 |
| kanzure | besids the feeding issues | 08:47 |
| kanzure | *besides | 08:47 |
| diginet | kanzure, it likely degrades the quality, and the question of how one gets them still comes to mind | 08:47 |
| diginet | forcible silking is impractical anyway | 08:47 |
| kanzure | and also, it's less interesting than transformations etc. | 08:47 |
| katsmeow-afk | it's like finding Mouser sells 1Gsps adc for $36, but the oem was sold and the price doubled and wait times to the usa are 6 months at etc etc | 08:47 |
| diginet | plus, I'd feel bad for them :( | 08:47 |
| n_bentha | ...but even when you have the silk proteins...it's not as strong as you want because u have to spin it right | 08:47 |
| n_bentha | ya forcible silking is what they've been doing... | 08:48 |
| n_bentha | it don't work | 08:48 |
| diginet | well, the spinning apparatuses built thus far have been very primitive, I think there is plently of room for improvement there | 08:48 |
| n_bentha | Yes. Microfluidics is the future | 08:48 |
| kanzure | THE FUTURE | 08:48 |
| diginet | I'm fairly certain the spinning mechanism is pretty well understood, it would be not too inconceivable of building something close enough tot it | 08:48 |
| diginet | *to it | 08:48 |
| kanzure | n_bentha: what fluidic spinning apparatus would you suggest? | 08:49 |
| diginet | kanzure, I'm a fan of electrospinning | 08:49 |
| kanzure | oh right | 08:49 |
| diginet | as mentioned, it's not quite the same, but Theo Gray describes how to spin your own nylon fibers in one of his books | 08:50 |
| kanzure | yeah, electrospinning in microfluidics should be a thing | 08:50 |
| n_bentha | I don't know enough about it, kanzure. | 08:50 |
| n_bentha | Sorry :( | 08:50 |
| kanzure | diginet: on a related note.. http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/Towards%20a%20Spiderman%20suit%20-%20large%20invisible%20cables%20and%20self-cleaning%20releasable%20superadhesive%20materials.pdf | 08:50 |
| diginet | the problem with all this stuff, is the incredibly low single to noise ratio when researching such things with buzzword names, on sites like physorg, you just get a bunch of hacks talking about "carbon metamaterials" which no clue of what they're talking about | 08:51 |
| kanzure | physorg is not something i'd recommend to ever use | 08:51 |
| diginet | kanzure, are you bryan bishop? I've read some of your stuff on the diybio group, great stuff :) thought I recognized the url | 08:51 |
| kanzure | yes this is bryan | 08:51 |
| diginet | well, it's a pleasure, and an honor | 08:52 |
| katsmeow-afk | yeas, some sites like that are 1:100::signal:noise | 08:52 |
| diginet | well, it's not just that even, when I read papers, even from academic journals, you get a bunch of junk stuff, people don't realize: phenomenology is not science | 08:52 |
| Mariu | nice presentation on the 3D printer, kanzure | 08:52 |
| diginet | the word science is so abused, tbh | 08:52 |
| Mariu | wathinc an YouTube video with you | 08:52 |
| Mariu | *watching | 08:53 |
| kanzure | Mariu: you might be more interested in the videos here.. http://diyhpl.us:9001/ | 08:53 |
| Mariu | thanks | 08:53 |
| diginet | kanzure, on the subject of those journal articles I have. Since you're relatively close by, maybe I could mail you them on a DVD? It's actually not 200GiB, meant to type 20 | 08:54 |
| diginet | so, 5 DVDs or so, not too bad | 08:54 |
| kanzure | diginet: that's one possibility, or you could upload them to a server? | 08:54 |
| diginet | I would, but my connection is ridiculously slow | 08:54 |
| diginet | good 'ol sneakernet never lets you down :) | 08:54 |
| kanzure | wait, it's not sneakers if you are mailing it | 08:55 |
| n_bentha | hey kanz, has yashgaroth been around the last couple days? | 08:55 |
| kanzure | n_bentha: yes | 08:55 |
| n_bentha | k. didn't remember seeing him | 08:55 |
| diginet | kanzure, if I send it via carrier pigeon, does that count :P | 08:55 |
| kanzure | only if the pigeon is genetically modified | 08:56 |
| diginet | http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1149.txt | 08:56 |
| n_bentha | do cyborg pidegeons count? | 08:56 |
| katsmeow-afk | properly mod'd, the pigeon need not carry the dvds | 08:56 |
| diginet | what if I clone a passenger pigeon, and then send you the data via that? | 08:57 |
| kanzure | snailmail is fine | 08:57 |
| kanzure | er, i mean, the postal service, not actual snails | 08:57 |
| diginet | could a sparrow carry a DVD? though? maybe if two got together? | 08:57 |
| diginet | kanzure, hhaahah | 08:57 |
| n_bentha | what is the airspeed velocity of an unladen sparrow? | 08:57 |
| diginet | lol | 08:57 |
| diginet | oh gawd, that made me think of something | 08:58 |
| kanzure | is that a monty python joke? | 08:58 |
| diginet | that is, but what I thought of isn't | 08:58 |
| katsmeow-afk | flocks of pigeons, an 8-wide array, fly overhead to deliver the data | 08:59 |
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| diginet | so, a few years ago, I was watching this godawful disney channel movie with my sister. The plot is that there's this girl who's a "physics genius" but also wants to be an ice skater, so she tries to develop "equations" for ice-skating so she can be a better skater. (Which makes no sense considering human mechanics are not a mystery, but for some odd reason, physiologists aren't olympic atheletes). Anyway, she's at this pa | 09:01 |
| diginet | rty, and she starts "geeking" out. This guy she has a crush on, then comes over and start's talking with her. The girl, surprised he understands her says: "Velocity, acceleration? how do you know about that stuff?" | 09:01 |
| diginet | as if one has to be a so-called "physics genius" to know what either of those are. . . | 09:01 |
| katsmeow-afk | one could have aspergers and not know other people can know things | 09:02 |
| n_bentha | hahaha | 09:02 |
| diginet | maybe the moral of the story was that the girl was a self-absorbed asshole | 09:02 |
| n_bentha | Didn't she want to go to harvard or something? | 09:03 |
| diginet | and not some shrill "BE YOURSELF" abortion of a "moral" | 09:03 |
| diginet | YES! and she gave it down to iceskate | 09:03 |
| kanzure | your first mistake is taking physics lessons from disney channel | 09:03 |
| diginet | any lesson, physics or otherwise | 09:03 |
| kanzure | i think it also has something to do with appealing to viewers.. i.e. "OH SHIT, I KNOW THOSE THINGS TOO!" | 09:03 |
| diginet | it needs no qualifiers | 09:03 |
| n_bentha | I think it's just funny that she was gonna go to Harvard cuz it's the end all be all for a physics genius. | 09:03 |
| diginet | yeah exactly | 09:03 |
| n_bentha | /sarcasm | 09:03 |
| diginet | but nobody knows University of Chicago, which would probably be better | 09:04 |
| n_bentha | Oh oh, that reminds me. I need to look into that janelia farms gradschool program w/ univ chicago | 09:04 |
| diginet | it's weird how people think anything that's not Ivy/Top Tier is a dump. maybe that's true in humanities, which are dumps wherever, but in the sciences state schools are fine | 09:04 |
| kanzure | wtf? i've never heard of this before.. apparently there's such a thing as "patent infringement insurance" | 09:05 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_infringement#Patent_infringement_insurance | 09:05 |
| kanzure | "Instead, only a mandatory scheme was considered to be viable in order to provide the economic and technical benefits to the EU and individual patentees which would arise from a widespread PLI scheme" | 09:05 |
| diginet | I don't have a problem with humanities, in theory, I love history. However, the utter lack of rigour in most humanities departments, at least, in my experiences, is appaling | 09:05 |
| n_bentha | I went to a really expensive elite university my first year. The science dept. sucked. The humanities and arts were so much better. I quickly transferred. | 09:05 |
| diginet | ah? interesting | 09:05 |
| diginet | kanzure: that already exists, it's called "protection racket" | 09:06 |
| kanzure | diginet: yes, well, the patent system is a broken racket anyway | 09:06 |
| diginet | speaking of racket | 09:06 |
| diginet | is it just me, or is the new .xxx domain zone not a BLATANT protection racket? | 09:06 |
| kanzure | but i mean: patent infringement insurance to open source hardware makers would be interesting.. you'd probably have very few claims because most of the time, nobody prosecutes for your crap (if you're not selling); if you are selling, that changes it a bit | 09:07 |
| diginet | one thing that bothers me are the absurd laws over trademark abandonment, where companies are forced into litigation over irrational fears | 09:07 |
| diginet | in many cases where they don't WANT to sue | 09:08 |
| diginet | the patent system is just ridiculous though | 09:08 |
| diginet | in its original form, it made perfect sense, but now, it's just gotten insane | 09:09 |
| diginet | I don't think they should go away entirely (though software patents should) but I think the selling of them should not be allowed | 09:09 |
| katsmeow-afk | this just in: doctor's license pulled after 2nd patient dies getting supposed stem cell therapy which was unapproved by FDA and unregulated | 09:09 |
| diginet | that would prevent usless cancres like intellectual ventures from existing | 09:10 |
| n_bentha | 0_o | 09:10 |
| katsmeow-afk | diginet, or the situation where to cya, you need to patent every little step that caused the intellectual property to exist | 09:14 |
| diginet | exactly | 09:14 |
| katsmeow-afk | Patent #09484502645023429347028934 : shake the vial this way | 09:14 |
| diginet | the problem I have with patents is mainly, where does property of nature, and innovation end and begin | 09:15 |
| diginet | I mean technically everything is a property of nature | 09:15 |
| diginet | but like, I can't patent talking, or sound obviously | 09:15 |
| katsmeow-afk | yeas, the idea of patenting human genome is being revisited | 09:15 |
| diginet | I don't like the idea of patenting DNA, numbers, or even certain chemical reactions | 09:15 |
| katsmeow-afk | "you cannot have kids, i own the genes you will be transferring, and i won't allow it" | 09:16 |
| diginet | I think a better system would to have some sort of system where investors and inventors would sign some sort of special NDA, where the invention is documented, so if the investor tried to rip off the inventor it can be proven | 09:17 |
| kanzure | diginet: i think you are just insufficiently creative or convincing, if you can't patent those things | 09:17 |
| diginet | kanzure, hmmm? | 09:17 |
| kanzure | diginet: that already exists, it's covered by trade secret law | 09:17 |
| kanzure | the whole point of patents was to have technology published instead of remaining a secret | 09:17 |
| kanzure | but instead it's become a regulatory/litigation scheme instead of a public technology commons | 09:17 |
| diginet | sure, but what's the point, a patent, by definition precludes others from making use of it | 09:18 |
| kanzure | after the patent expires it presumably helps you make the devie.. but in practice the information in it is just legalese | 09:18 |
| kanzure | *device | 09:18 |
| katsmeow-afk | but you can possibly make improvements on it, or sideways offshoots | 09:18 |
| kanzure | a realistic technology repository for 2012 would include things like, oh i dunno, CAD files. god damn. | 09:18 |
| diginet | I dunno how one would fix it, tbh | 09:19 |
| diginet | it's certainly not an easy problem to solve | 09:19 |
| kanzure | i've seen some interesting suggestions but i have no favorites yet | 09:19 |
| diginet | yeah | 09:19 |
| kanzure | for instance, some people suggest taxing patents (since it's "property") | 09:19 |
| diginet | oh, that's a very good one | 09:19 |
| kanzure | others suggest limiting the term of patents | 09:19 |
| kanzure | others suggest abolishing patents (but i don't see how to realistically convince people to go with this) | 09:19 |
| diginet | I don't think that's a good idea anyway | 09:20 |
| kanzure | others suggest patents being issued but only for defensive litigation purposes | 09:20 |
| diginet | I think that if it can proven that a company files patents with no intention of every utilizing them, they should be invalidated | 09:20 |
| katsmeow-afk | India has taken to forced licensing, or just dissolving them | 09:20 |
| diginet | of course that's hard to prove | 09:20 |
| * n_bentha leaves for lab meetings | 09:20 | |
| diginet | bye bye | 09:20 |
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| * katsmeow-afk leaves to do things irl too | 09:20 | |
| kanzure | diginet: there are other issues though, like non-profit-making activity still counts as infringement.. and that significantly hinders a lot of work | 09:20 |
| diginet | kanzure, indeed | 09:21 |
| diginet | which is absurd | 09:21 |
| kanzure | also, the patent system itself is completely against open source hardware | 09:22 |
| diginet | I mean, let's say, for example, that some process of making diamonds is patented, but I read the patent and make a diamond for myself, with no intent of capitalizing it. If I keep my mouth shut, sure, I'll be fine. But let's say I tell a friend, and then he tells a friend and so on. I've infringed on the patent, and thus incur legal damages, just for doing something otherwise totally unharmful | 09:22 |
| kanzure | open source software is doable because of some trickery with copyright law | 09:22 |
| kanzure | here are some studies: | 09:23 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/open-source/ | 09:23 |
| kanzure | hod's report in that directory was an ok overview | 09:23 |
| diginet | same reason I hate the DMCA, the idea that one doesn't have sovereignty over their own property, save for situations where the intent is to harm someone, is scary | 09:23 |
| diginet | it's just so crazy to me, to think that I could in theory be sued for performing some procedure that is otherwise perfectly legal merely because someone thought of it first | 09:24 |
| kanzure | you can be sued for anything | 09:25 |
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| diginet | well, I know, but sued, and there be a case for it | 09:25 |
| kanzure | patent litigation is the same way. you might even have proof that you do not infringe their patent or that their patent is invalid.. but you still have to go through with the litigation. | 09:25 |
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| diginet | you know aerogel.org? it's just so weird to me, to think the patent holder had to give PERMISSION for people to make something, which wasn't a contraband | 09:26 |
| diginet | capitalization is one thing | 09:26 |
| ThomasEgi | wouldnt patent issues be mostly a no-concern for DIY people? i mean dont they affect commercial products only? | 09:26 |
| kanzure | ThomasEgi: no.. it also non-commercial work that is subject to patents | 09:26 |
| kanzure | patents are pretty broad. | 09:26 |
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| diginet | oh, I'll give you a perfectly good example of something alone the same lines | 09:26 |
| kanzure | hi Replop1 | 09:26 |
| kanzure | ThomasEgi: see http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/documents/appxl_35_U_S_C_271.htm | 09:27 |
| kanzure | ThomasEgi: 35 U.S.C. 271 | 09:27 |
| diginet | this may not be the case anyway, but at one time in Texas law, owning lab equipment, for example, and erlenmeyer flask required one to register that with the government, even if you made it yourself | 09:27 |
| kanzure | "Except as otherwise provided in this title, whoever without authority makes, uses, offers to sell, or sells any patented invention, within the United States, or imports into the United States any patented invention during the term of the patent therefor, infringes the patent." | 09:27 |
| kanzure | diginet: err i'm pretty sure that's still the case for glassware in texas. | 09:27 |
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| diginet | it's just so bizarre, that it is illegal to own an arbitrary shaped piece of glass without permission | 09:27 |
| diginet | chop off the neck, and it's a decoration | 09:28 |
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| Replop | hi kanzure | 09:28 |
| kanzure | diginet: you and i both need to register to get a license to carry a concealed petridish | 09:28 |
| diginet | HAHAAHHAA | 09:28 |
| kanzure | "concealed petridish license" | 09:28 |
| diginet | I can just imagine going into a restaurant, a women sees a circular buldge in my backpocket, everyone screams and cowers in the corner. I hold up my hands calmy, pull the petri dish out, and set it down. I say, "it's okay everyone, I have a license" and proceed to show it to the proprietor | 09:29 |
| ThomasEgi | ... this world... needs to burn a whole bunch of bullshitlaws. | 09:30 |
| kanzure | i think you need to say you have a license before pulling it out | 09:30 |
| kanzure | otherwise they think you have harmful intent | 09:30 |
| Replop | and if you are caught without a licence, you will be shiped to a high security lab | 09:31 |
| diginet | here's a fun activity | 09:31 |
| * kanzure goes back to writing code for pokemon red | 09:32 | |
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| diginet | in many states, blasphemy is still illegal, so here's what you do, grab a friend, go down to a police station, curse God, then have your friend perform a citizen's arrest, take you in, and show where the law is in the books (provided its there) | 09:32 |
| kanzure | actually, it might be cool to have blasphemy on my rap sheet | 09:33 |
| kanzure | i'll get all the esoteric laws broekn. | 09:34 |
| diginet | fact: whaling is illegal in Oklahoma | 09:34 |
| diginet | anyow | 09:40 |
| diginet | *anyhow | 09:40 |
| diginet | hmm, it's so bewildering how many variables there are to consider with genetic engineering | 09:40 |
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| diginet | hmm, I'm doing some reading on codon optimization | 10:09 |
| diginet | interesting stuff, too bad the vast majority of it is heavily proprietary | 10:09 |
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| kanzure | diginet: there are a lot of people who would be willing to contribute to an open source implementation, if someone starts off with a good base | 10:11 |
| diginet | I'm juggling so many projects right now, not to mention school, so I can't exactly lead that up right now, BUT, I will try and record whatever I find and share it | 10:12 |
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| _Sketch_ | I recommend the Getting Things Done method, though I haven't completely implemented it in my life. I have a huge project board that I write down the steps for all my projects on. Actually, I need more board. | 10:55 |
| fenn | i'm about 50% through that book :P | 10:56 |
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| fenn | whew, thought my myvu was irreparably dead, but it was just the battery: http://fennetic.net/irc/IMG_6540.JPG | 10:57 |
| kanzure | _Sketch_: that's probably something you should look at | 10:58 |
| diginet | _Sketch_: whiteboards are my lifeline! haha | 11:02 |
| kanzure | fenn: so does caffeine do anything for you? | 11:02 |
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| diginet | pads, and whiteboards, those are the things I ask for, ahah | 11:02 |
| fenn | it's a multiplier on all the other stuff | 11:03 |
| fenn | if i'm sleep deprived i just feel more sleep deprived | 11:03 |
| diginet | kanzure, oddly, caffeine has no observable effect on me. (and yes, I have tested it fairly rigorously) | 11:03 |
| kanzure | diginet: same.. or it makes me sleepy? | 11:03 |
| fenn | but if i'm in good shape and reasonable blood sugar, prepare to kick some ass | 11:03 |
| diginet | which is especially odd, considering I take methylphenidate for ADHD | 11:03 |
| kanzure | diginet: i also take some stimulants for ADHD. | 11:03 |
| katsmeow-afk | makes me sleepy if i eat caffine during the day | 11:04 |
| fenn | i've been drinking green tea religiously the past couple weeks | 11:04 |
| diginet | yeah, it doesn't have the "ZOMG I CAN STAY UP ALL NIGHT" effect on me, rather I don't feel scatterbrained | 11:04 |
| katsmeow-afk | i just found out why the house has been so cool upstairs so far this year: it's been underwater | 11:04 |
| diginet | ? | 11:04 |
| kanzure | katsmeow-afk is a hermit | 11:04 |
| kanzure | doesn't check whether or not her house is submerged | 11:04 |
| fenn | like yoda, in a swamp she lives | 11:05 |
| diginet | I'm an urban hermit, lol | 11:05 |
| katsmeow-afk | there's a 24x32 sorta flat area of the roof, watertight, with two drains and an overflow area, both drains stopped up, tehre's been 6 inches of water up there | 11:05 |
| diginet | woah | 11:05 |
| diginet | potential health hazard, or free cooling system? YOU DECIDE | 11:05 |
| katsmeow-afk | well, anything growing it it can potentially burrow thru the waterproofing, and wreck the roof, so i cleared the drains | 11:06 |
| diginet | hah yeah | 11:06 |
| fenn | more myvu stuff, if you're curious about the image quality: http://fennetic.net/irc/IMG_6535.JPG (note this is zoomed in a bit, you won't get a full screen with this level of detail) | 11:07 |
| diginet | I had something similar to that happen to me, the air conditioner condensation chamber blew up, and the roof in rome literally collapsed taking the sheetrock with it, all over everything | 11:07 |
| diginet | amazingly, the damage actually wasn't that bad, to the stuff that is, the roof of course was obliterated | 11:07 |
| katsmeow-afk | condensaton chamber? | 11:08 |
| diginet | yeah, it stores the condensed water | 11:08 |
| katsmeow-afk | why do you store condensed water? | 11:08 |
| diginet | or maybe I'm getting that wrong, there's some sort of chamber which holds water for some purpose, but I don't know HVAC very well | 11:08 |
| diginet | no, it's not on purpose, it's supposed to drain out, but it got clogged or something | 11:08 |
| katsmeow-afk | i cannot imagine the stored water being explosive | 11:09 |
| diginet | well, I don't know if it exploded, the water which was supposed to drain didn't and spilled over or something and caused the roof to collapse | 11:09 |
| katsmeow-afk | hmm,, unless it backed up and submerged the evaporator, which you should have noticed, and fed liquid freon to the compressor, which then blew up and dumped the freon charge at high pressure,, i am reaching here,, i don't get it | 11:10 |
| katsmeow-afk | oh | 11:10 |
| fenn | _Sketch_: you aren't going to find a miniature thermal IR camera | 11:11 |
| fenn | also they start at around $3k | 11:11 |
| katsmeow-afk | the water wight did it to you,, ok, my roof is held up and down with steel beams 8ft on center | 11:11 |
| katsmeow-afk | flir starts at $3k, but b&w ccd with no glass lenses will deteck IR | 11:12 |
| katsmeow-afk | the "pinhole" cameras | 11:12 |
| fenn | sure, but there's a huge difference between near and far IR | 11:14 |
| katsmeow-afk | i didn't know he specified | 11:14 |
| fenn | notably that CMOS doesn't work in that band gap, or any semiconductor really | 11:14 |
| fenn | "I'm looking for small cameras (< 1in), low-resolution, to mount to my sunglasses to make a thermal imaging system. Feasible?" | 11:15 |
| fenn | i guess the only way to find out is to take apart one of those handheld thermal cameras | 11:15 |
| katsmeow-afk | yeas, pinhole cameras will show an image at IR (below red and invisable to humans) | 11:15 |
| katsmeow-afk | if it's good enough for any purpose, i dunno, your call | 11:16 |
| fenn | sure, but my point is that thermal IR (i.e. glowing black objects in a dark room) is not visible to standard imaging chips | 11:17 |
| katsmeow-afk | i believe you may be correct | 11:17 |
| * fenn cleans up and prepares to head home | 11:17 | |
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| diginet | so this is bizarre, according to this paper I just read, black widow MaSp1 and 2 genes lack introns | 11:19 |
| diginet | they are made up one exon 10k and 12k bp in length, respectivelly, that's really. . .odd | 11:20 |
| diginet | but helpful! it makes transfection easier :) | 11:20 |
| katsmeow-afk | a few near $1k : http://halfvalue.com/wiki.jsp?topic=FLIR | 11:21 |
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| ParahSailin | im not sure if i mentioned a spider silk project, maybe you are thinking of elastin like peptides | 12:02 |
| kanzure | :( | 12:03 |
| ParahSailin | what about spider silk | 12:05 |
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| kanzure | ParahSailin: nothing.. just some earlier discussion today about electrospinning and getting ecoli to spit out some precursors | 12:05 |
| ParahSailin | not sure what sort of recombinant stuff youd want to do -- silkworms make pretty good fibers | 12:07 |
| diginet | ParahSailin, I was the one who brough it up, I was trying to figure out the best way to get MaSp1/2 proteins which are comparable to their natural analogues. It's difficult, because they're huge (350 kDa, 10-12k bp) so are generally truncated, intenttionally or unintentionally | 12:08 |
| diginet | most papers I've seen use subsets which are 50-60 kDa, since the genese are highly modular, this is possible, but it greatly degrades the properties unfortunately | 12:09 |
| ParahSailin | what do those do | 12:09 |
| diginet | I forget which is which, but basically spider silk is sort of like if you imagine a train, where the cars are coupled together, one protein provides the tensile strength, while the other provides the elasticity | 12:10 |
| ParahSailin | MaSp are spidroins? | 12:11 |
| diginet | yeah | 12:11 |
| diginet | Major ampullate (dragline) spidroin | 12:11 |
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| ParahSailin | maybe express in insect cells | 12:12 |
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| diginet | the spinning problem is compartively easier to solve, because the physiology of the silk glands and spinnerrettes are relatively well understood and could be emulated well enough | 12:12 |
| diginet | hmm, that's what I thought, do you think it would be possible to culture the gland cells which produce the proteins? | 12:13 |
| ParahSailin | establish cell line of new species, not exactly trivial | 12:14 |
| diginet | I figured as much | 12:14 |
| diginet | are there any insect cell lines which would be conducive targets? | 12:14 |
| diginet | or rather, pre-existing ones | 12:14 |
| ParahSailin | sf9 or sf21 are good producers in baculovirus expression systems | 12:15 |
| diginet | I'll look into those | 12:15 |
| ParahSailin | i could get those for you | 12:15 |
| diginet | oh, well thanks :) | 12:15 |
| ParahSailin | shit you're in houston | 12:15 |
| diginet | oh yeah! wait, what's your name? kanzure was telling me to meet someone else in Houston | 12:15 |
| ParahSailin | dr. tao at rice has sf9 cells, i could get them from her | 12:15 |
| diginet | seriously? | 12:16 |
| diginet | wow | 12:16 |
| ParahSailin | rob | 12:16 |
| kanzure | oh, i forgot ParahSailin is also in houston | 12:16 |
| diginet | okay, hmm, I can't remember, I'm kevin by the way | 12:16 |
| kanzure | anyway, both of you should go meet jacob and forrest | 12:16 |
| diginet | haha | 12:16 |
| diginet | now, one question I've been trying to answer, to not much avail, is: what is there in the literature in terms of methods to optimize transcription rate? | 12:17 |
| ParahSailin | optimize transcription rate of what? | 12:17 |
| ParahSailin | jacob and forrest? | 12:18 |
| ParahSailin | hehe, got my letter of recommendation back from aubrey | 12:18 |
| diginet | a given gene, let's say I put generic gene A into E. Coli for example, what methods, if any, are there to increase the rate of transcription of the gene into RNA (sorry if I'm using the wrong terminology) | 12:18 |
| ParahSailin | hope it gets me that startup chile money | 12:18 |
| ParahSailin | T7 promoter is the standard way | 12:19 |
| diginet | is the process fairly well understood? | 12:19 |
| ParahSailin | yah | 12:20 |
| kanzure | oh, i wasn't aware that he was looking for a promoter | 12:20 |
| kanzure | i thought you said your problem was that only a portion of the protein gets transcribed? | 12:20 |
| diginet | well, what about enhancers? | 12:21 |
| * ParahSailin is dumbly answering the precise question asked | 12:21 | |
| diginet | kanzure, well, that's the primary one, I was just curious about optimization | 12:21 |
| diginet | ParahSailin, no no you're fine! haha | 12:21 |
| ParahSailin | if you want the whole rna transcribed, you probably should do baculovirus in insect cells | 12:21 |
| ParahSailin | i dunno if yeast systems could handle that stuff | 12:22 |
| ParahSailin | i imagine if abortive transcription is a problem, than going the least evolutionary distance between original gene and expresser is a good idea | 12:22 |
| diginet | ParahSailin, they can't, I've already read a paper which showed that yeast cells truncated the gene | 12:23 |
| kanzure | all genes? or this specific gene | 12:23 |
| ParahSailin | yah then you are stuck with insect cells | 12:23 |
| diginet | well, I gather any of this length | 12:23 |
| ParahSailin | or human cells | 12:23 |
| diginet | SPIDERMAN | 12:23 |
| kanzure | look on the bright side.. an insecct cell culture sounds fucking rad | 12:23 |
| kanzure | *insect | 12:23 |
| ParahSailin | i only mention human cells because i have some of the stuff for that already | 12:24 |
| diginet | yeah | 12:24 |
| ParahSailin | id really like an excuse to get some of those insect cells from dr tao | 12:24 |
| ParahSailin | just couldnt justify myself buying the media for growing them | 12:24 |
| kanzure | "ah yes, and here's my nigerian fire monster cell culture. what? the name, you ask? well, you see, they are called fire monsters because-- OH MY GOD WE HAVE TO LEAVE RIGHT THIS MOMENT" | 12:24 |
| kanzure | there's probably no 'nigerian fire ant' though.. have to pick something good | 12:25 |
| diginet | ParahSailin, are these insect specimens, or cell lines? | 12:27 |
| ParahSailin | cell lines | 12:27 |
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| ParahSailin | i might be able to source some baculovirus system somewhere | 12:27 |
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| diginet | I actually think this could come together | 12:31 |
| diginet | ParahSailin, I don't suppose spider cell lines exist, do they? | 12:32 |
| ParahSailin | i know a guy still at rice who's at the brc | 12:32 |
| ParahSailin | i dont think so | 12:33 |
| diginet | brc? | 12:35 |
| ParahSailin | the new building at rice | 12:37 |
| ParahSailin | http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jcb.23187/abstract?userIsAuthenticated=false&deniedAccessCustomisedMessage= can someone hax this for me? | 12:37 |
| kanzure | yeh one sec.. | 12:37 |
| ParahSailin | im looking for a pi at rice who has a baculovirus system | 12:38 |
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| kanzure | grr i hate wiley | 12:39 |
| kanzure | http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1002/jcb.23187/asset/23187_ftp.pdf?v=1&t=h0jx9pcl&s=40a38f56dd40730d8f2cba2303a6aa6761c48716 | 12:39 |
| kanzure | what the hell kinda url is that | 12:39 |
| diginet | oh the physics building? | 12:39 |
| ParahSailin | no not that one | 12:39 |
| ParahSailin | the research collaborative | 12:39 |
| ParahSailin | wait you just found a secret url for that? | 12:40 |
| kanzure | hold oonnn | 12:40 |
| ParahSailin | thats superhax | 12:40 |
| diginet | paywall journals are a horrible racket | 12:40 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/tumor_necrosis.pdf | 12:40 |
| diginet | urgh | 12:40 |
| kanzure | diginet: we're creating the science liberation front | 12:41 |
| kanzure | with a complete copy of all papers | 12:41 |
| diginet | YES | 12:41 |
| diginet | haha | 12:41 |
| diginet | well, there's an easy way to stop it | 12:41 |
| kanzure | a few of us are writing scrapers to hook into the broader system | 12:41 |
| diginet | just make any university which receives public funding (I gather most to some degree) stop using paywall journals | 12:41 |
| ParahSailin | i think dr tao also has the bac-to=bac system | 12:42 |
| diginet | I know it would be hard, but there is no reason for their existince | 12:42 |
| ParahSailin | one stop shop | 12:42 |
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| diginet | nice | 12:44 |
| diginet | so anyway | 12:47 |
| diginet | uhh | 12:47 |
| diginet | let me see if I understand the process well enough: isolate the gene, extract it, insert it into a vector along with the appropriate promotor, use the vector to insert the DNA into the target cell | 12:49 |
| kanzure | "We have decided to not transfer history of OCCT versions prior to 6.5.0 to Git, in order to (a) keep reasonable size of the repository and (b) have meaningful and clean history." | 12:49 |
| kanzure | "For the history: prior to 2010 the OCCT sources have been stored in SCCS system, and even if we tried to preserve consistency as much as possible when converting to SVN (through CVS), the resulting SVN repository exhibits some problems (e.g. merges for code based on old versions do not work well) when dealing with history that came from SCCS." | 12:49 |
| kanzure | "This also caused troubles (sudden failures) in conversion to Git. Thus we kept only the part of the history which is sure to be clean." | 12:49 |
| kanzure | "For the size: our current SVN repository weights 1.5 Gb, and being converted to Git with full history it yields ~500 Mb. Compare this to 70 Mb of the current repository." | 12:49 |
| kanzure | mehhh | 12:50 |
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| delinquentme | OCCT ? | 12:59 |
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| kanzure | delinquentme: opencasade stuff | 13:01 |
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| kanzure | nmz787: sup | 13:01 |
| delinquentme | who in here is good with electrical engineering? | 13:06 |
| ThomasEgi | ← | 13:07 |
| kanzure | at least thomas, superkuh, fenn, .. | 13:07 |
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| delinquentme | ThomasEgi, know much about resonance in stepper motors? | 13:08 |
| ThomasEgi | resonance steppers?... that sounds pretty odd.. | 13:09 |
| ThomasEgi | i do know about resonance and steppers | 13:09 |
| ThomasEgi | and rigid body systems in motion in general. | 13:10 |
| ThomasEgi | what's the particular issue you are running into? | 13:10 |
| ThomasEgi | delinquentme, ? | 13:14 |
| delinquentme | ThomasEgi, right now theres no issues .. basically I'd prefer not to be troubleshooting EE issues when prototyping | 13:14 |
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| delinquentme | right now all I run with is an arduino | 13:15 |
| nmz787 | wouldn't resonance occur if the poles weren't in phase? | 13:15 |
| delinquentme | but when it comes to production other PCBs will be cheaper and more efficient | 13:15 |
| ThomasEgi | you can greatly reduce resonance by using microstepping. most modern driver ic's offer that | 13:15 |
| delinquentme | resonance occurs @ particular rpms in a stepper | 13:15 |
| delinquentme | maybe im using the wrong term | 13:15 |
| ThomasEgi | another way would be to avoid the rpm's at which it resonates | 13:15 |
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| delinquentme | yeah basically accelerate through them | 13:16 |
| delinquentme | i've got an arduino lib to do that atm | 13:16 |
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| ThomasEgi | 3rd option is to change the angular momentum (not sure if that is the right term) | 13:16 |
| ThomasEgi | my adding extra-weights. that pretty much only shifts the problem | 13:16 |
| ThomasEgi | but can shift it into a range where it is of no concern | 13:16 |
| nmz787 | is it unipolar? | 13:18 |
| delinquentme | bipolar | 13:18 |
| nmz787 | so are you applying power at the exact same time to each pole? | 13:18 |
| delinquentme | no haha | 13:18 |
| nmz787 | oh | 13:18 |
| delinquentme | like the resonance point is a non issue | 13:18 |
| nmz787 | optimally shouldn't power be applied at same time to each pole? | 13:19 |
| delinquentme | what im after is someone who likes open source hardware and who could act as a solid advisor for EE parts of a syringe pump | 13:19 |
| ThomasEgi | delinquentme, just ask if you want to know anything. | 13:20 |
| delinquentme | kk ill keep it in mind ThomasEgi | 13:20 |
| nmz787 | (i'm no EE, so I could be totally wrong!) | 13:20 |
| delinquentme | tanks! | 13:21 |
| delinquentme | nmz787, i think you're right | 13:21 |
| nmz787 | "Stepper motors can often exhibit a | 13:23 |
| nmz787 | phenomena refered to as resonance at | 13:23 |
| nmz787 | certain step rates. This can be seen as a | 13:23 |
| nmz787 | sudden loss or drop in torque at certain speeds which can result in missed | 13:23 |
| nmz787 | steps or loss of synchronism. It occurs | 13:23 |
| nmz787 | when the input step pulse rate coincides with the natural oscillation | 13:23 |
| nmz787 | frequency of the rotor. Often there is a | 13:23 |
| nmz787 | resonance area around the 100 – 200 | 13:23 |
| nmz787 | pps region and also one in the high | 13:23 |
| nmz787 | step pulse rate region. The resonance | 13:23 |
| nmz787 | phenomena of a stepper motor comes | 13:23 |
| nmz787 | from its basic construction and therefore it is not possible to eliminate it | 13:23 |
| nmz787 | completely. It is also dependent upon | 13:23 |
| nmz787 | the load conditions. It can be reduced | 13:23 |
| nmz787 | what is pps? | 13:23 |
| ThomasEgi | pulses per second? | 13:24 |
| ThomasEgi | no idea | 13:24 |
| nmz787 | hmm, maybe | 13:24 |
| nmz787 | delinquentme: are you using an allegro driver chip? | 13:24 |
| nmz787 | my roomie is an EE, and I remember him saying allegro has really great chips for this kinda thng | 13:25 |
| delinquentme | yeah basically as you're spinning it there is a particular speed at which it will stop | 13:25 |
| delinquentme | hmm | 13:25 |
| delinquentme | but thats a cost thing then :D | 13:25 |
| delinquentme | im using just a cheap driver chip from digikey | 13:26 |
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| ThomasEgi | for micropumps.. you probably wont step it that fast anyway | 13:26 |
| nmz787 | when i was playing with some expensive IDEX pumps we were stepping then with 256 microsteps | 13:27 |
| nmz787 | getting nanoliter volumes | 13:27 |
| ThomasEgi | microstepps wont count as steps given as speed for the resonance frequency | 13:28 |
| nmz787 | the piston pumps here :http://www.idex-hs.com/about/data_sheets/idexhs_pump_technologies_oem.pdf | 13:29 |
| nmz787 | they are definitely a cost item | 13:29 |
| nmz787 | i think $500-$800 each | 13:30 |
| nmz787 | great for science where you need a gold standard with no hassle.... not so great for hobbyist or optimized production | 13:30 |
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| delinquentme | nmz787, thank you... | 13:33 |
| delinquentme | those are sex | 13:33 |
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| nmz787 | :D | 13:55 |
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| kanzure | hi yashgaroth | 14:30 |
| yashgaroth | hey | 14:30 |
| kanzure | possibly bad idea: turntable.fm room for ##hplusroadmap | 14:32 |
| yashgaroth | awww I missed the spider silk protein discussion | 14:32 |
| kanzure | http://turntable.fm/4f7a1aeaaaa5cd1762006cff | 14:32 |
| katsmeow-afk | jrayhawk , at&t just denied me info in Miami, and UPS came out and refused to leave a package addressed to me | 14:32 |
| katsmeow-afk | this is Alabama | 14:32 |
| Mokbortolan_ | haha | 14:34 |
| Mokbortolan_ | I used to live there | 14:34 |
| Mokbortolan_ | horrible state | 14:34 |
| Mokbortolan_ | very glad I moved to Oregon | 14:34 |
| jrayhawk | whaaaaaaat | 14:34 |
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| katsmeow-afk | and the bank, and credit card company, sent a box of checks to the old PO box address, which will be closed and assigned to somene else at any minute, even tho the bank has the correct address | 14:35 |
| ParahSailin | is spidroin self-assembling into fibers? | 14:35 |
| * ParahSailin isn't that interested in spider silk in and of itself | 14:36 | |
| ParahSailin | but i have connections to get the expression system for free | 14:36 |
| yashgaroth | I still prefer spider ranching if possible | 14:39 |
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| delinquentme | monster rancher? | 14:49 |
| yashgaroth | awww yeee | 14:51 |
| yashgaroth | but yeah baculovirus in insect cells does seem like the best in vitro approach | 14:51 |
| delinquentme | true true | 15:00 |
| delinquentme | ok so ideal situation | 15:00 |
| delinquentme | would be a supplier to support this | 15:00 |
| delinquentme | they'd have engineers and shit as well as the 'raw' inputs | 15:01 |
| delinquentme | and I could stick to mostly code and some mech design | 15:01 |
| kanzure | why not just use the pre-existing syringe pump designs that adrian provided? | 15:03 |
| kanzure | syringe | 15:04 |
| kanzure | fjdkas | 15:04 |
| kanzure | http://staff.bath.ac.uk/ensab/replicator/Pix/syringe-pump-h.jpg | 15:04 |
| kanzure | or this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq4RQHLfJA4 | 15:04 |
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| ParahSailin | if one had that spidroin medium supernatant, how hard would that be to make something out of it | 15:08 |
| ParahSailin | if i were gonna do this, i'd do a kickstarter for it | 15:08 |
| diginet | ParahSailin, when did you get back? lol | 15:10 |
| yashgaroth | probably some flow filtration to concentrate it and remove most of the other junk in the media | 15:10 |
| ParahSailin | someone needs to make "bitstarter" which would be kickstarter but wiht bitcoin | 15:10 |
| ParahSailin | i got back i dunno ago | 15:10 |
| diginet | oddly, it doesn't ever say ParahSailin has joined on my client | 15:11 |
| diginet | ah well | 15:11 |
| ParahSailin | i didnt log out | 15:11 |
| kanzure | ParahSailin didn't leave | 15:11 |
| kanzure | except about two hours ago | 15:11 |
| diginet | hmm, did you exit the PM? that must've been it | 15:11 |
| ParahSailin | well yes, after you have it purified, all you have to do to turn it into fibers is electrospinning? | 15:11 |
| ParahSailin | (which im not really sure what that means) | 15:12 |
| diginet | not quite, welll, you could do just that but the quality won't be as good | 15:12 |
| delinquentme | i think i asked adrian about that pump and hes not no plans | 15:12 |
| diginet | the spinning process involves lowering the pH, which helps with making a better fiber | 15:12 |
| delinquentme | schematics | 15:12 |
| diginet | I have to do more research on the physiology though | 15:13 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: then draw some up based on that picture | 15:13 |
| ParahSailin | is spidroin phylogenetically related to collagen, elastin, or keratin | 15:13 |
| diginet | but basically, it is possible to electrospin the proteins from solution with a rather simple apparatus | 15:13 |
| ParahSailin | i always forget | 15:13 |
| diginet | I think collagen | 15:14 |
| diginet | don't quote me on that | 15:14 |
| diginet | though | 15:14 |
| ParahSailin | lowering the ph seems to be a condition favoring coacervation out of solution? | 15:15 |
| diginet | probably | 15:15 |
| diginet | I've read a few papers about dissolving natural spider silk, and reconstituting fibers with nearly identical properties, so I think the spinning is mostly a non-issue | 15:16 |
| diginet | the genes are really odd though, in the black widow, neither MaPs1 or 2 has any introns, just 10k and 12k base pairs respectively. However, with N Clavipes, there are introns, but that show odd repitive patterns and motifs | 15:17 |
| diginet | *repetitive | 15:17 |
| ParahSailin | no introns is a good thing for us though | 15:18 |
| diginet | err, 10k/12k base pairs of exons | 15:18 |
| diginet | it is | 15:18 |
| ParahSailin | no diddling with rna extraction | 15:18 |
| diginet | BUT, N Clavipes is the one we want, and it does have introns | 15:18 |
| ParahSailin | can get the gene out of gdna | 15:18 |
| diginet | the problem is, it seems as though they play a more integral role in its expression than other genes (just what I gleaned from a few papers I read) | 15:19 |
| yashgaroth | wait we can just dissolve natural spidersilk? | 15:20 |
| diginet | although, one paper did report consistent expression of 92-mer, 250 kDa proteins, so maybe it isn't so bad | 15:20 |
| yashgaroth | yesss cash4cobwebs.com is unregistered | 15:20 |
| diginet | yashgaroth, sure, and how are you going to get that? | 15:20 |
| yashgaroth | pay off some spiders | 15:20 |
| diginet | hah | 15:20 |
| delinquentme | also what about the white washed pig organ scaffolds??? is there a market for that kind of thing? | 15:20 |
| diginet | you can't farm them, andeven if you could the yield would be too low | 15:20 |
| yashgaroth | there are some communal spiders, dunno about their silk strength though | 15:21 |
| diginet | N Clavipes is the best AFAIK, among readily available species | 15:21 |
| diginet | (Darwin's bark spider is better, but it was discovered last year, so it's not like we can get specimen) | 15:22 |
| diginet | the nice thing is that the precursor proteins seem to be rather innocuous, so toxicity likely won't be as much of an issue | 15:23 |
| diginet | some open questions though, are what kind of yield one could reasonably expect to get, and how "far" a given amount will go | 15:24 |
| diginet | the best numbers I've seen on synthetic gene production are like 50% of total protein production in a given transfected cell, but I believe that was E.Coli, I don't know if one could really expect that for something more complex like insect cells, and for the much more complex proteins we're targetting | 15:26 |
| ParahSailin | i cant really think of an actual useful use for spider silk that would warrant all the effort of producing it | 15:26 |
| diginet | except that it's 5 times stronger than kevlar at a fraction of the weight | 15:26 |
| skorket | ParahSailin, can't it stop bullets? | 15:26 |
| ParahSailin | "stronger" | 15:27 |
| diginet | in nearly every conceivable metric | 15:27 |
| ParahSailin | well not elastic modulus | 15:27 |
| ParahSailin | but you can stretch it longer before it breaks | 15:27 |
| diginet | Well, one illustration I read in some paper was that a rope of natural parity spider silk 1 inch in diameter could stop a boeing 747 | 15:28 |
| diginet | now that's got to have use | 15:28 |
| ParahSailin | silkworm silk has pretty good material properties | 15:28 |
| katsmeow-afk | stop it from what in what conditions? | 15:28 |
| diginet | IIRC, if it were tied to the back of it, and anchored, it could keep the plane from taking off | 15:29 |
| diginet | the thing is, even if it were otherwise identical to kevlar, it has the huge advantage of not falling apart in the presence of UV | 15:29 |
| ThomasEgi | attack of the clones!.... | 15:29 |
| ThomasEgi | on an unrelated sidenote. cloning disk images. | 15:29 |
| ParahSailin | i guess im having a hard time imagining when i would want extreme elongation before fracture at moderately high modulus | 15:30 |
| diginet | ParahSailin, I mean, if I'm honest you're right, it's not like we need it, it's just something that interests me a lot, that's relatively within reach of attainability | 15:30 |
| ParahSailin | and when that would warrant using what is effectively a more expensive but better form of bombyx silk | 15:31 |
| ParahSailin | could this be used as a 3d printable material? | 15:31 |
| diginet | bombyx silk degrades a lot easier than spider silk | 15:31 |
| diginet | err, a lot more readily | 15:32 |
| ParahSailin | bombyx silk is durable enough to make clothes | 15:32 |
| ParahSailin | degrades under what conditions? | 15:32 |
| diginet | it yellows when exposed to perspiration | 15:32 |
| diginet | it degrades when exposed to sunlit over long periods of time | 15:33 |
| diginet | it's significantly weakened by water, it can be attacked by insects | 15:34 |
| delinquentme | i really like the company backblaze | 15:34 |
| diginet | it also has really poor elasticity | 15:34 |
| ParahSailin | a biomaterial that i think could be useful would be mother of pearl if you could hack that synthetic biologically | 15:50 |
| diginet | why mother of pearl? | 15:50 |
| ParahSailin | http://www.meyersgroup.ucsd.edu/papers/journals/Meyers%20289.pdf | 15:50 |
| diginet | well, I have a number of other projects that you might think more practical, unfortunately they all involve more investment of my non-existant money | 15:52 |
| ParahSailin | like what? | 15:53 |
| diginet | the main one is a working quantum computer. a real one, not like those hacks at D-Wave | 15:53 |
| diginet | my favoured type is the trapped ion quantum computer, but it also happens to be the most untenable, financially | 15:54 |
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| diginet | also, DIY diamond, which requires a complicated CVD reactor. I think that could be built, but it would require some really expensive parts, machining, and either a platinoid metal substrate, or a diamond seed crystal | 15:56 |
| ParahSailin | actually i like that idea and have thought about how i could do that | 15:56 |
| diginet | it's definitely doable | 15:56 |
| diginet | I have the design finished | 15:56 |
| ParahSailin | i dont even want to make money on that, i just want to collapse the diamond market | 15:56 |
| diginet | all it takes is cash :( | 15:56 |
| diginet | oh I know | 15:56 |
| diginet | don't get me STARTED on that | 15:57 |
| diginet | my family jokes that when one talks to me, it doesn't matter what we're talking about, it always ends up as diamonds | 15:57 |
| diginet | incidentally, I don't want to get killed | 15:57 |
| diginet | (seriously, there was a company called Apollo Diamond, the owner received death threats, it mysteriously dissappeared last year) | 15:57 |
| ParahSailin | not sure i believe that, but it does cost quite a bit to make artificial diamonds | 15:58 |
| diginet | believe what? that that guy got killed, or that I have a design I think would work | 15:58 |
| diginet | I'm not sure I believe the latter, I think it would work, but one never knows until one tries | 15:59 |
| diginet | the theory behind diamond CVD is mostly very well understood though | 15:59 |
| ParahSailin | well anyone who disagrees with the legitimacy of patents could infringe upon those cvd patents and do it i guess | 16:00 |
| ParahSailin | as i said, i dont want to make money, i just want to collapse that market | 16:00 |
| ParahSailin | so i'd make an open source rig that anyone could build to make diamonds according to those patents | 16:00 |
| diginet | ehh, I doubt anyone could build it | 16:01 |
| diginet | it requires high vacuum | 16:01 |
| ParahSailin | open source rig that anyone could order the parts for | 16:01 |
| diginet | doesn't work that like unfortunately, these things only come pre-assembled | 16:02 |
| diginet | I don't want to make money, on this, or the silk if I were to go through with it | 16:02 |
| diginet | but the biggest problem is that you either have to have a seed crystal, or a very expensive, specific type of metal substrate, or you only get polycrystalline diamond, which isn't useful for much | 16:03 |
| ParahSailin | seed crystal is easy | 16:03 |
| diginet | well sure, I could go to a DeBeers and buy a big fat engagement ring | 16:04 |
| diginet | again, cash :( unless you know of another source | 16:04 |
| ParahSailin | well... tiny dust sized diamonds are really cheap | 16:05 |
| ParahSailin | look into nacre | 16:05 |
| ParahSailin | i think you will find it is an interesting material | 16:05 |
| diginet | the seed crystal has to be a single crystal | 16:05 |
| diginet | and a large one | 16:05 |
| diginet | the only other option I thought of was this | 16:06 |
| diginet | basically, pattern a silicon wafer with little slots that tetrahedron shaped crystals could fit into, if you got it just right, it *might* work | 16:06 |
| diginet | though, that means we have to also figure out how to do ridiculously accurate nanolithography as well | 16:07 |
| ThomasEgi | hm. polycristaline wavers sell for quite some money. given you polish them well, which is not easy | 16:07 |
| diginet | and those wouldn't be of use anyhow | 16:07 |
| ThomasEgi | a cm² of polycristaline diamond-window seels for over 100 euro. | 16:08 |
| diginet | the only reliable source of good seed crystals are either natural diamonds or HPHT diamonds, the latter are not even that much cheaper than natural diamonds anyway | 16:08 |
| ThomasEgi | does it really need to be monocristaline diamond? | 16:09 |
| diginet | for it to do anything useful, yes | 16:09 |
| ThomasEgi | like what? | 16:09 |
| diginet | the best application of synthetic diamond would be for diamond based semiconductors, which, like silicon, have to be a single crystal | 16:09 |
| ThomasEgi | polycristaline makes excellent heat-conductor. | 16:10 |
| diginet | sure, but that's a comparitively boring application | 16:10 |
| ThomasEgi | they also make excellent couple-windows for most laser technology as they are highly transparent | 16:10 |
| diginet | yeah | 16:10 |
| ThomasEgi | you can also make stuff totaly un-scratchable | 16:10 |
| diginet | but I'm only really interested in diamond semiconductors | 16:11 |
| diginet | though | 16:11 |
| ThomasEgi | wouldnt polycristaline work there? | 16:11 |
| diginet | not at all | 16:11 |
| ThomasEgi | how about tricking vcd in growing monocristaline? | 16:11 |
| diginet | I'm not sure what you mean | 16:12 |
| ThomasEgi | cvd sory. | 16:12 |
| diginet | oh okay | 16:12 |
| ThomasEgi | btw. ever seen the process in real? | 16:12 |
| diginet | there is a way to do that, you have to use a substrate which has a similar lattice constant to diamond. You can use some platinoid metals, but that obviously doesn't help out with the price | 16:12 |
| diginet | and no, I haven't sadly | 16:12 |
| ThomasEgi | hm. i am one of the lucky guys who took a tour at the fraunhofer institute of applied rigid-body physics in freiburg | 16:13 |
| diginet | sweet, can't say I'm not jealous :P | 16:13 |
| ThomasEgi | they had several cvd chambers. metal easter-eggs as they called it | 16:13 |
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| ThomasEgi | ranging between 5 and 15kW of microwave power. | 16:14 |
| diginet | I'd love nothing more than to make CVD diamond, I spent like 4 months reading about it almost every waking hour of the day, and despite a desperate attempt to find some way to do it, I just don't think its possible | 16:14 |
| ThomasEgi | shall i tell you how they do it? | 16:15 |
| ThomasEgi | not much you need anyway. | 16:15 |
| diginet | I know how they do it, microwave assisted plasma | 16:15 |
| ThomasEgi | yeah | 16:15 |
| kanzure | diginet: i think alonzenberg or w/e in #homecmos is doing home CVD? | 16:15 |
| diginet | the plasma produces atomic hydrogen which etches away sp2 bonded carbon significantly faster than sp3, which creates a metastable environment at a comparitively lower pressure than normal | 16:16 |
| ThomasEgi | guess the most difficult part of it is getting the elipsoid chamber. | 16:16 |
| diginet | kanzure, ah thanks | 16:16 |
| diginet | ThomasEgi, and getting the composition of the gasses right | 16:16 |
| diginet | there are an overwhelmingly large amount of variables to consider | 16:16 |
| ThomasEgi | hm. it didnt sound like much of a problem when they told us about the gasses | 16:17 |
| ThomasEgi | they did have some gas mixture aparatus there. but they said it is for customer-demand only, to color it specially etc | 16:17 |
| diginet | well, mind you, most CVD reactors are absurdly slow, like a few microns an hour | 16:17 |
| diginet | if you put aside speed, it's easy | 16:17 |
| ThomasEgi | yeah. and eat a LOT of electricity :D | 16:17 |
| ThomasEgi | the folks at the lab even had i custom contract with the energy supplier :D | 16:18 |
| diginet | exactly, faster=less power (lieky) | 16:18 |
| diginet | *likely | 16:18 |
| ThomasEgi | another thing is.. you end up with a pretty rough disk of diamond | 16:18 |
| ThomasEgi | polycristaline. | 16:18 |
| diginet | yeah, they don't come out very pretty | 16:18 |
| ThomasEgi | and the only way to get it polished is by grinding it with more diamond-dust | 16:19 |
| diginet | I've thought about trying to contact a university to see if I could get a sample, but I think that's doubtful | 16:19 |
| ThomasEgi | and that takes another long time | 16:19 |
| diginet | indeed | 16:19 |
| ThomasEgi | diginet, i do have one :D | 16:19 |
| ThomasEgi | altho i gave it away. | 16:19 |
| diginet | like they're going to send that some nutty kid from the internet | 16:19 |
| diginet | *to some | 16:19 |
| ThomasEgi | i could probably retrieve it for a picture | 16:19 |
| diginet | could you? I'd love to see that | 16:19 |
| ThomasEgi | not sure. i can try. | 16:20 |
| ThomasEgi | i cant send it to you, but i could try to get it for a pic | 16:20 |
| ThomasEgi | no idea if the person still has it. | 16:20 |
| diginet | oh of course | 16:20 |
| diginet | just a pic | 16:20 |
| diginet | thanks | 16:20 |
| ThomasEgi | sry. i really cant :D | 16:20 |
| ThomasEgi | it was laser-cut in a heart shape | 16:20 |
| diginet | no problem | 16:21 |
| diginet | aww, that's really cool | 16:21 |
| ThomasEgi | and i cant possibly ask the girl i gave that diamond to to give it back :D | 16:21 |
| diginet | oh I know where this is going: ex girlfriend? | 16:21 |
| ThomasEgi | hm. not really ex-girlfriend. we never had a relationship that would make it an ex- | 16:21 |
| ThomasEgi | it is more like childhood friends | 16:21 |
| diginet | ahhh okay | 16:21 |
| kanzure | title is a little hyped: | 16:25 |
| kanzure | http://burtonator.wordpress.com/2012/04/01/the-motoactv-might-be-a-killer-biohacker-device-7/ | 16:25 |
| kanzure | so it can only track gps? | 16:26 |
| kanzure | "tracking your heart rate*" "* Optional heart rate monitor required" wtf | 16:27 |
| skorket | You're sure it's not an April fool's joke? | 16:30 |
| kanzure | motorola doesn't usually participate in april fool's day? | 16:31 |
| kanzure | has google bought them yet? i think it hasn't gone through yet. | 16:31 |
| skorket | I hadn't heard that...google is buying motorola? whoa | 16:32 |
| kanzure | yeah it was a pretty big deal | 16:32 |
| kanzure | http://investor.google.com/releases/2011/0815.html | 16:32 |
| skorket | wow | 16:33 |
| kanzure | yup.. it basically doubles google's employee count | 16:34 |
| delinquentme | fair amount of anti-trust right? | 16:34 |
| delinquentme | damn | 16:34 |
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| kanzure | man is markdown annoying | 16:46 |
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| yashgaroth | ey n_bentha you looking for me | 17:29 |
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| n_bentha | oh hey! | 17:30 |
| n_bentha | i tried that damn transformation once again | 17:30 |
| n_bentha | so i'll find out tomorrow. i thought it was fine but that noob kept complaining about the bacteria 'not looking right' on the kanamycin plate | 17:31 |
| yashgaroth | in what sense | 17:31 |
| n_bentha | kept saying it was contamination? | 17:31 |
| n_bentha | cuz there were small colonies and big colonies of the same color of stuff | 17:31 |
| yashgaroth | that happens normally | 17:32 |
| yashgaroth | anywhere from 0.5mm to 3mm across | 17:32 |
| _Sketch_ | fenn: Why no miniature cameras? Or just not IR? | 17:32 |
| n_bentha | yeah. that's what i said, yashgaroth. | 17:34 |
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| yashgaroth | well let me know how it looks tomorrow, p.s. I'm usually here roughly 2am-2pm pst, until I get another job | 17:36 |
| yashgaroth | err 2pm-2am | 17:36 |
| diginet | are there any other factors to consider, in maximizing gene expression, other than codon optimization and the appropriate promoter? | 17:37 |
| n_bentha | heheh | 17:37 |
| n_bentha | good luck | 17:38 |
| n_bentha | diginet: yes! | 17:38 |
| yashgaroth | feeding strategies is one, and of course optimizing recovery | 17:38 |
| yashgaroth | oh and generating a stable cell line, if you're doing eukaryotic | 17:39 |
| diginet | well, I know you have to consider culturing methods, but I'm only wondering about what to add or remove from the synthetic gene | 17:39 |
| diginet | I'm using sp9 | 17:39 |
| diginet | like, what about enhancers? | 17:41 |
| diginet | and, when the target is a eukaryote, is it better to remove the introns, leave them, or modify them in some way? | 17:41 |
| yashgaroth | tbh I haven't done any work with insect cells, but just check the literature for what everyone's using as a strong promoter-enhancer | 17:43 |
| kanzure | haha.. ##hplusroadmap office hours | 17:43 |
| n_bentha | diginet: are you trying to express a gene, or are you trying to express enzymes to do a task? | 17:43 |
| yashgaroth | for introns, if the source and host species have the same processing machinery, you might as well leave them in, unless they make the insert too big to manipulate | 17:44 |
| n_bentha | yashgaroth, you could put down tutoring as one of your community service things on your resume? | 17:44 |
| yashgaroth | hahaha | 17:44 |
| diginet | no, just express a gene | 17:44 |
| yashgaroth | he's doing spider silk proteins | 17:44 |
| diginet | sorry for being so unknowledgeable, I'm working off of wikipedia and what I remember from high school biology :P | 17:45 |
| n_bentha | LOL | 17:46 |
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| n_bentha | you might want to put down a sequence in there for exocytosis? | 17:47 |
| n_bentha | so that your proteins get excreted. amirite? | 17:47 |
| diginet | what's exocytosis? | 17:47 |
| diginet | I gather ti has something to do with being out of the cell | 17:47 |
| yashgaroth | it probably already has one | 17:48 |
| n_bentha | yashgaroth: how you know that! | 17:48 |
| yashgaroth | well the protein is already secreted in the silk glands | 17:48 |
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| n_bentha | i thought some of the transgeneic sprider silk bacteria from korea had only pieces of the spider silk gene? | 17:49 |
| yashgaroth | and I'm hoping/presuming that insect secretory tags are the same between species | 17:49 |
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| diginet | n_bentha, AFAIK no synthetic spider silk has been made with the entire gene | 17:49 |
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| diginet | okay, here's another one: how does one try to prevent the gene from chopped up, I think I remember reading that highly repetitive genes tend to have sequences deleted from them in the process of incorporation | 17:50 |
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| yashgaroth | ehh I don't think that'll be a problem outside of an evolutionary time scale | 17:51 |
| n_bentha | eh. i'm sure they've done it, but just haevn't published the results | 17:52 |
| diginet | well one of the papers I read mentioned that getting the gene into E Coli was difficult as it had the tendency to simply delete parts of it | 17:52 |
| yashgaroth | that's because e.coli suck and are dumb | 17:52 |
| audy | hhahaha | 17:52 |
| n_bentha | put it into yeast | 17:52 |
| diginet | I'm using insect cell lines, yeast has been tried, it doesn't work | 17:53 |
| audy | diginet you're trying to make silk? | 17:54 |
| diginet | audy, yeah | 17:54 |
| n_bentha | yeah | 17:54 |
| n_bentha | stupid yeast | 17:54 |
| diginet | spider silk in particular | 17:54 |
| n_bentha | what insects are you looking at? | 17:54 |
| diginet | p9 cells | 17:54 |
| ParahSailin | i can get my hands on sf9 cells | 17:55 |
| diginet | err, sf9, sorry | 17:55 |
| diginet | don't know where p9 came from | 17:55 |
| diginet | and yeah, ParahSailin thanks gain | 17:55 |
| diginet | *again | 17:55 |
| diginet | I actually think this might be doable | 17:55 |
| n_bentha | oh oh oh | 17:56 |
| n_bentha | use http://www.invitrogen.com/1/1/7970-sf9-frozen-cells-graces-media-10e7-cells.html | 17:56 |
| n_bentha | yes the sf9 | 17:56 |
| n_bentha | and u can do piggybac to put in your spidersilk gene! | 17:56 |
| n_bentha | whoop whoop. | 17:56 |
| n_bentha | they've used the piggybac system at notredam i think it were | 17:56 |
| diginet | okay, I've heard of piggybac before, but what exactly is it? | 17:56 |
| audy | "Goats were genetically modified to secrete silk proteins in their milk, which could then be purified." … freaky | 17:56 |
| audy | spider goat! | 17:56 |
| n_bentha | they use the baculovirus to insert genes | 17:57 |
| n_bentha | from the webstie i posted "GIBCO? Sf9 cells, derived from Spodoptera frugiperda ovarian cells (Sf21 cells), are commonly used to isolate and propagate recombinant baculoviral stocks and to produce recombinant proteins." | 17:57 |
| diginet | ohhh, I didn't realise baculovirus and piggybac were the same thing, okay, duh | 17:58 |
| ParahSailin | you have access to the piggybac system? | 17:58 |
| * ParahSailin can probably get bac-to-bac | 17:58 | |
| diginet | I don't know if I do | 17:58 |
| n_bentha | i could get it from my peeps working in my lab. | 17:58 |
| diginet | no, I don't | 17:58 |
| diginet | wow, you guys are awesome | 17:58 |
| n_bentha | i don't know much about the piggybac system; however. | 17:58 |
| diginet | thanks so much | 17:58 |
| ParahSailin | n_bentha, you should do that in case i cant get bac-to-bac | 17:58 |
| ParahSailin | i've worked with aav vectors | 17:59 |
| diginet | there is one problem: I don't believe a full sequencing of the N Clavipes MaSp genes exist yet | 17:59 |
| yashgaroth | man baculovirus has even more punny names than usual | 18:00 |
| kanzure | diginet: gotta go PCR it out of the genome then | 18:00 |
| diginet | yeah, but the bigger question is where I GET one | 18:00 |
| kanzure | i thought you said the amazon? | 18:00 |
| diginet | no, that's Darwin's Bark Spider | 18:00 |
| kanzure | oh oh | 18:00 |
| diginet | N Clavipes actually lives in Texas | 18:01 |
| diginet | (among other places) | 18:01 |
| diginet | but, I don't know where I would look | 18:01 |
| kanzure | go find your nearest eight year old boy | 18:01 |
| kanzure | give him a net and a picture of the thing | 18:01 |
| diginet | haha | 18:01 |
| diginet | I've seen some vague references to people catching them, even some person locally | 18:02 |
| diginet | I don't know if they're around this time of the year though | 18:02 |
| katsmeow-afk | N. clavipes in temperate North America has one generation per year under field conditions. Adult males are present from July to September, with most females maturing in August. | 18:03 |
| diginet | damn, I'll have to wait :( | 18:03 |
| n_bentha | diginet | 18:03 |
| n_bentha | are you in houston? | 18:04 |
| diginet | ? | 18:04 |
| diginet | yes | 18:04 |
| diginet | are you? | 18:04 |
| n_bentha | then go to memorial park | 18:04 |
| katsmeow-afk | The largest specimen ever recorded was a 2.7 inch female N. clavipes (which is now debated to have been a new yet undocumented subspecies) from Queensland, that was able to catch and feed on a small-sized finch. | 18:04 |
| n_bentha | and go on the back trails and keep your eyes open. | 18:04 |
| diginet | do you think there would be any out right now? | 18:04 |
| n_bentha | it's kinda late at night | 18:04 |
| n_bentha | i'd go in the morning | 18:05 |
| diginet | no, not tonight, I mean this part of the year | 18:05 |
| ParahSailin | n_bentha, you in houston? | 18:05 |
| diginet | who ISN'T in Houston? lol | 18:05 |
| katsmeow-afk | the spider, Nephila clavipes, generates at least six different silks from sets of different glands | 18:06 |
| n_bentha | not at the moment, SaraPalin | 18:06 |
| diginet | I'm interested in dragline/Major Ampullate | 18:06 |
| n_bentha | "olden Orb Weaving Spiders are found in dry open forest and woodlands" | 18:06 |
| diginet | hmm, sounds perfect | 18:06 |
| diginet | I think I shall plan an expedition | 18:06 |
| n_bentha | you might not find one. i don't remember seeing any...but then again i wasn't looking for them. | 18:07 |
| diginet | fair enough | 18:07 |
| n_bentha | but check around. maybe they'll pop up in the back-parts of the park | 18:07 |
| katsmeow-afk | a few pics of the spider in discussion, in Houston : http://www.bugsinthenews.com/Texas%20Spiders/Golden-silk%20Spider%20(Nephila%20clavipes)%2012%20July%202007%20Sandra%20R%20Houston%20TX.htm | 18:07 |
| diginet | I did find some vague reference in a paper from 20 years ago about someone buying a specimen, it appears the company is defunct though | 18:07 |
| katsmeow-afk | the golden silk orbweaver forms localized concentrations, especially near swampland or forested coastal regions, and is absent over much of its geographic range where conditions are not so favorable for its development. I have searched much of inland Texas for this species with very little success. | 18:08 |
| ParahSailin | put out a bounty on bitmit | 18:08 |
| n_bentha | hmmm | 18:08 |
| katsmeow-afk | better pics of a N. clavipes taken in Houston : http://www.bugsinthenews.com/Texas%20Spiders/Golden%20Silk%20Spider%20(Nephila%20clavipes)%2015%20July%202007%20Sandra%20R%20Houston%20TX.htm | 18:09 |
| n_bentha | rawr! | 18:10 |
| katsmeow-afk | i don't see what the problem is with getting pics of the eyes, i always just went to the other side of the web and shot it 45 off the head end in supermacro | 18:13 |
| diginet | specimencentral.com | 18:16 |
| diginet | bingo! | 18:16 |
| diginet | err nevermind | 18:17 |
| diginet | thought it was something else | 18:18 |
| diginet | where do researchers generally get specimen from? do they actually catch them themselves? | 18:18 |
| kanzure | sometimes people call in to a university, and a researcher is interested enough to receive the specimen | 18:18 |
| kanzure | then they publish some paper, and other colleagues chime in asking for some. | 18:19 |
| n_bentha | they have a ton of them at notredam | 18:19 |
| n_bentha | e | 18:19 |
| kanzure | maybe there should be a site for rare sought-after specimens.. "$25/head per dragonfly (living)" | 18:19 |
| diginet | I'm going to do a little more digging | 18:19 |
| katsmeow-afk | or you find a 3ft dia clay-mold of an ancient tree in your mountainside, and call people, and none is interested | 18:20 |
| kanzure | that's probably something more suitable for a letter | 18:23 |
| katsmeow-afk | might be interesting spider read : http://www.pnas.org/content/103/25/9428.full | 18:33 |
| diginet | http://www.tarantulaspiders.com/Other_Spiders_Price_List.php | 18:38 |
| diginet | haha! | 18:38 |
| diginet | only $8 | 18:38 |
| katsmeow-afk | cheaper than a trip to Brazil | 18:38 |
| diginet | indeed | 18:40 |
| n_bentha | hey now | 18:40 |
| kanzure | one of my favorite spider articles is the one about portia: http://www.dichotomistic.com/mind_readings_spider%20minds.html | 18:41 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portia_labiata | 18:42 |
| * katsmeow-afk growls at line like "Spiders have a narrow gut that can only cope with liquid food" , because the word "only" is in the wrong place, changing the sentence meaning | 18:52 | |
| katsmeow-afk | it should read "Spiders have a narrow gut that can cope with only liquid food" | 18:53 |
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| kanzure | no they mean the gut can't, for instance, dance with foods | 18:53 |
| katsmeow-afk | oh | 18:54 |
| katsmeow-afk | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portia_labiata would be about half the length if the repeated phrases were removed | 18:55 |
| katsmeow-afk | "sticky gum on prey" and those lines around it are repeated | 18:55 |
| katsmeow-afk | the experiment with getting across water was mentioned in detail 3x, i think | 18:57 |
| audy | kanzure how do you have time for homework? | 18:59 |
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| uniqanomaly_ | anyone tried Uberman sleep schedule for longer time? | 19:05 |
| bkero | doesn't work | 19:05 |
| bkero | unsustainable | 19:06 |
| uniqanomaly_ | main developer of WordPress did it for year | 19:06 |
| uniqanomaly_ | supposedly most productive year in his life | 19:06 |
| ybit | i wonder if it had anything to do with the sleep schedule | 19:07 |
| kanzure | audy: oh there's a very simple answer.. i dropped out | 19:07 |
| kanzure | bkero: try sleeping every 8 hours for 4 hours. | 19:07 |
| audy | I did a polyphasicish thing for a while | 19:07 |
| ParahSailin | mofafinil > amphetamines > sleep deprivation | 19:08 |
| audy | meaning, I took naps in addition to sleeping a normal schedule | 19:08 |
| audy | it was great | 19:08 |
| bkero | polyphasic's haven't worked in my experience. THe only one that does is a duophasic one, where you turn off all unnatural lights after dark, wake up at night for about 3 hours, do stuff in low light, then fall asleep again until morning | 19:09 |
| n_bentha | IT"S THE DRUGS | 19:09 |
| kanzure | with sleeping every 8 hours, you get.. 0-8 awake, 8-noon sleep, noon-8 awake, 8-12 sleep | 19:09 |
| katsmeow-afk | i useto do 24 awake, 10 asleep for years, but it got me way out of sync | 19:11 |
| uniqanomaly_ | bkero: how long you did uberman? | 19:11 |
| katsmeow-afk | could do 36 up , 12 down easily too | 19:11 |
| bkero | uniqanomaly_: about seven months | 19:12 |
| kanzure | i think statements like "uberman doesn't work" would be more useful with "and here's my SNPs: <link>" tacked on to the end of said statement | 19:12 |
| uniqanomaly_ | Matt Mullenweg, main WordPress, He recounts the experience:“It was probably the most productive year of my life. The first three to four weeks you’re a zombie, but once you settle into the schedule, you don’t even need an alarm to wake up after the naps. I probably wrote the majority of my code contributions for WordPress.org during that time. Then, I got a girlfriend. That was the end of Uberman, and the beginning of a significantly less produ | 19:13 |
| uniqanomaly_ | ctive— but more romantic—phase. It’s nice to be able to spend a normal night with someone instead of just sleeping 20 minutes.” | 19:13 |
| kanzure | uniqanomaly_: that was possibly a very bad thing | 19:13 |
| kanzure | wordpress is fucking awful, in the scheme of things.. | 19:13 |
| uniqanomaly_ | gf was a bad thing, we need more guinea pigs without gf-s | 19:13 |
| bkero | The ubermann sleep cycle is unsustainable for long-term usage. | 19:13 |
| bkero | would be a more descriptive statement | 19:14 |
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| delinquentme | WOM | 19:24 |
| uniqanomaly_ | kanzure, who cares about how awful it is, Automattic raised US$1.1m in 2006 and another US$29.5m in 2008, good enough to me | 19:25 |
| uniqanomaly_ | delinquentme RUN, RUN!!!1 | 19:26 |
| uniqanomaly_ | :D | 19:34 |
| kanzure | https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/NoisebridgeChinaTrip2 | 19:36 |
| delinquentme | >_<_>_< | 19:40 |
| JayDugger | Good evening, everyone. | 19:48 |
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| delinquentme | JayDugger, HOWDEH. | 19:51 |
| JayDugger | Any advice on ordering from alibaba.com or from aliexpress.com? | 19:52 |
| JayDugger | "Don't" makes an acceptable answer. | 19:52 |
| nmz787 | seems alright | 19:54 |
| nmz787 | i got a free sample once | 19:54 |
| nmz787 | haven't evaluated its quality yet though | 19:54 |
| nmz787 | i've heard another person got good deals on micropipettes | 19:54 |
| nmz787 | worked fine | 19:54 |
| JayDugger | I just want a case for my phone. All available in USA suck. | 19:55 |
| superkuh | The RTL-SDR people don't seem to be having any trouble with aliexpress. | 19:55 |
| JayDugger | Good to hear, superkuh. Thank you. | 19:56 |
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| ParahSailin | try taobao? | 19:58 |
| JayDugger | Have they got a site in English? | 19:58 |
| JayDugger | And before I forget, thank you for the suggestion. | 19:59 |
| ParahSailin | i read chinese, and google translate does decently | 19:59 |
| JayDugger | Good! I'd hate to learn I confused quantities or items by having a shipping container of sardines delivered. | 20:00 |
| katsmeow-afk | but your phone should fit the shipping container | 20:02 |
| JayDugger | The container won't fit in my pocket. | 20:03 |
| yashgaroth | I'm sure they sell pants too | 20:03 |
| JayDugger | I'll need a much bigger waist and inseam, too. | 20:03 |
| katsmeow-afk | you're changing too many variables of the problem at once, i give up | 20:03 |
| JayDugger | Come on, all you had to do was point out they sell fatty foods and elevator shoes. | 20:04 |
| katsmeow-afk | sure, but i have never been good with fashion, so buying new pants is really problematic for me | 20:05 |
| katsmeow-afk | i quit quick | 20:05 |
| JayDugger | Color, measurements, dress or not. | 20:05 |
| JayDugger | Anyhow, thanks, and good night. | 20:05 |
| katsmeow-afk | gnite | 20:05 |
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| katsmeow-afk | what pixel grid quantification, and what image depth on the picture, would be a test to compare a human recognising the picture contents (Eiffel Tower, elephant, kid in sandbox, etc) vs a machine recognising the contents? | 20:26 |
| katsmeow-afk | 640x480 kinnect image? | 20:26 |
| katsmeow-afk | whatever a 3mp camera provides? | 20:26 |
| katsmeow-afk | some svga or hdmi image quality? | 20:26 |
| kanzure | nmz787: #homecmos seems mostly active because of azonenberg | 20:48 |
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| kanzure | nmz787: ping | 20:51 |
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| nmz787 | cool | 20:51 |
| kanzure | nmz787: btw, i'm starting to organize some of the microfluidics notes here.. http://diyhpl.us/wiki/projects/microfluidics.txt | 20:52 |
| kanzure | git clone git://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki.git | 20:52 |
| kanzure | just need to start collecting our notes and BOMs.. | 20:53 |
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| katsmeow-afk | http://techcrunch.com/2012/03/31/why-google-might-be-going-to-0/ | 20:59 |
| nmz787 | katsmeow-afk pretty crazy | 21:21 |
| jrayhawk | "I probably wrote the majority of my code contributions for WordPress.org during that time." wow, that's the most damning commentary on uberman's i've ever seen | 21:33 |
| Vicarious | ohai | 21:34 |
| nmz787 | so i really hate needing sleep | 21:34 |
| Vicarious | sleep is a waste of time | 21:34 |
| nmz787 | i also really hate U.S. education system... i've never excelled at school because I loathe the structure of it so much | 21:35 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: no kidding | 21:35 |
| Vicarious | 6:34 a.m. here, I'm on my way from the Hackerspace to home, to get some rest | 21:35 |
| skorket | how would you use microfluidics to sequence? | 21:37 |
| kanzure | skorket: sanger sequencing, probably | 21:37 |
| nmz787 | most sequencing is microscale | 21:43 |
| nmz787 | whether the rest of the fluidics is micro or not | 21:43 |
| nmz787 | i.e. microwells with a CCD (micro light sensitive pixels) next to it for reading the state | 21:44 |
| jrayhawk | nmz787: http://www.sudburyvalley.org/05_articles.html you might find democratic unschool propaganda heartwarming | 21:44 |
| Vicarious | 'night | 21:45 |
| _Sketch_ | Woo hackerspaces. | 21:49 |
| _Sketch_ | I have no car and my local one is downtown. Much sad. | 21:49 |
| kanzure | _Sketch_: read the earlier messages we left you re: your cameras | 21:50 |
| katsmeow-afk | bike? bus? taxi? robot? scooter? | 21:50 |
| kanzure | http://gnusha.org/logs/2012-04-02.log | 21:50 |
| _Sketch_ | Yeah, I saw. :) | 21:50 |
| kanzure | ok | 21:50 |
| _Sketch_ | 1h by bus. | 21:50 |
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| katsmeow-afk | ouch | 21:50 |
| nmz787 | jrayhawk: i like that a lot... i guess that means i have to move to MA when i want to have kids | 21:50 |
| _Sketch_ | Yeah | 21:50 |
| nmz787 | or home school their asses | 21:50 |
| kanzure | nmz787: waldorf/montessori is sometimes okay | 21:51 |
| jrayhawk | Nah, there are lots of schools that follow the SV model; just look it up on google maps for your local area | 21:51 |
| katsmeow-afk | i learned far more in libraries than in classes | 21:51 |
| nmz787 | what grades are offered? | 21:52 |
| nmz787 | k-12 | 21:52 |
| kanzure | they don't really teach you /things/ in waldorf/montessori | 21:52 |
| nmz787 | ? | 21:52 |
| jrayhawk | waldorf and montessory get one half of the education equation correct | 21:52 |
| jrayhawk | montessori | 21:52 |
| kanzure | in fact, you sometimes wonder if they teach anything at all | 21:52 |
| jrayhawk | i can spell i swear | 21:52 |
| _Sketch_ | i don't belieeeeve youuuuu | 21:52 |
| _Sketch_ | (okay i do) | 21:52 |
| jrayhawk | which is to say montessori and waldorf are one hell of a lot better than standard schooling methods | 21:53 |
| kanzure | you know, i haven't found a reasonable explanation of waldorf that i can show outsiders | 21:54 |
| nmz787 | SV wants ~$20/day | 21:54 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldorf_education | 21:54 |
| nmz787 | not too bad considering cost of paying a babysitter | 21:55 |
| jrayhawk | waldorf: magical gnomes fill your head with good feelings about learning | 21:55 |
| jrayhawk | there, i explained it for you | 21:55 |
| kanzure | "The educational philosophy's overarching goals are to provide young people the basis on which to develop into free, morally responsible[8][9] and integrated individuals,[2][10][11] and to help every child fulfill his or her unique destiny" | 21:56 |
| kanzure | "The first Waldorf school was founded in 1919 to serve the children of employees at the Waldorf-Astoria cigarette factory in Stuttgart, Germany" | 21:56 |
| kanzure | destiny: cigarette manufacturing | 21:56 |
| katsmeow-afk | i dunno the school curriculum really matters, i remember learning more in libraries than classes, in grade school, pre-highschool, and high school, because in a library there's no one to thump your ear, kick your chair, pull your hair, shove your books off the table, stick their wet finger into your ear, or describe their latest trip to the restroom | 21:56 |
| katsmeow-afk | and the magazines aren't over 10 years out of date | 21:57 |
| nmz787 | ok not considering summer term ~$27/day | 21:57 |
| jrayhawk | katsmeow-afk: you sound bitter! you would perhaps like http://johntaylorgatto.com/underground/toc1.htm | 21:58 |
| katsmeow-afk | i fought like heck to get let into summer school several years | 21:58 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: i should stop assuming people have read gatto | 21:58 |
| katsmeow-afk | "only kids with bad grades goto summer school" "that can be arranged" | 21:59 |
| kanzure | i always thought gatto was the default thing that anyone reads when they have a slightly negative opinion about the status of public education | 21:59 |
| jrayhawk | a lot of people find bitterness distasteful | 21:59 |
| nmz787 | have no idea who/what is gatto | 21:59 |
| nmz787 | i know what is ghetto | 22:00 |
| jrayhawk | actually i guess that's a reasonable position for a lot of people | 22:00 |
| katsmeow-afk | regardless of my personal feeling about those activities, the fact remains that i learned more in libraries, self directed studies there, and the reasons listed are also why i was there | 22:01 |
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| jrayhawk | people for whom agency has intellectual supremecy over ideas are extremely vulnerable to forceful rhetoric, so an instinctive distaste probably serves them well in life | 22:02 |
| katsmeow-afk | getting the new issues ofScience News back in the early 1970's made my day, and usually the next day too | 22:02 |
| nmz787 | i am definitely capable of straight As, always have been... was in gifted classes from 3rd grade on.... but the ways school happens has always been wayyyyy tooo stressfull for me | 22:03 |
| nmz787 | so i basically just tried to opt out, but since i was in public schools that was considered bad and underperforming | 22:04 |
| jrayhawk | http://www.omgwallhack.org/toys/gatto.cgi there's also the random gatto generator here | 22:04 |
| kanzure | i should have been less o a pussy and ran away from home, but i didn't consider this a legitimate option to get out of school | 22:04 |
| jrayhawk | my biggest regret in life is not dropping out of school sooner | 22:05 |
| katsmeow-afk | yeas, trying to make physics and chemistry more interesting by showing up stoned, no way, they made us sit in the back of class, where we watched everyone else play catchup to us | 22:05 |
| katsmeow-afk | chemistry prof kept trying to trip me up, by interrupting my comic book reading to make some example of me, which only showed how slowly his class could go thru material | 22:07 |
| katsmeow-afk | once i showed him up, he walked out of class and was gone the rest of the week | 22:08 |
| * katsmeow-afk sighs | 22:09 | |
| nmz787 | i dropped out of H.S. because i hated it so much and finally couldnt take it.... when I finally felt ready for a 'long summer camp' I was able to get into a good university no-problem | 22:09 |
| nmz787 | been bitching about the uni since the first quarter | 22:09 |
| katsmeow-afk | heh | 22:09 |
| nmz787 | now its my last quarter and I wonder if i'll pass | 22:09 |
| nmz787 | missed all my 8am classes last week | 22:10 |
| nmz787 | urgh | 22:10 |
| katsmeow-afk | i made my mistake in pinning belief the CLEP tests and SAT tests made any difference at all, they didn't, all a waste of money | 22:11 |
| nmz787 | CLEP actually counts toward a degree though, right? | 22:11 |
| katsmeow-afk | the area schools were so bad, my SAT score was the highest in the county for 4 years running, and i was so stoned i couldn't figure out where to sign my name on the test sheet | 22:12 |
| katsmeow-afk | nmz787, so they say | 22:12 |
| katsmeow-afk | i clepped ~60hrs , got all A's, and every school i asked about them, dismissed them | 22:13 |
| katsmeow-afk | a full yr and a half of classes across the spectrum of what was offered | 22:13 |
| katsmeow-afk | from Pe, art, math including calc and analytic geo, chem, history, music, i went wwwiiidddeee | 22:15 |
| katsmeow-afk | wasted my time | 22:15 |
| katsmeow-afk | quit school, 5 yrs later owned more property and was making more money than my parents, both of who went to college | 22:16 |
| katsmeow-afk | m | 22:16 |
| katsmeow-afk | today, even disabled with back injury, my property and house is paid off, even tho society believes i am worthless | 22:17 |
| katsmeow-afk | hey, maybe i am bitter | 22:17 |
| -!- nmz787 [~Nathan@cpe-67-242-177-23.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 22:18 | |
| katsmeow-afk | :-/ | 22:18 |
| -!- nmz787 [~Nathan@cpe-67-242-177-23.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 22:19 | |
| katsmeow-afk | wb | 22:19 |
| nmz787 | f society | 22:20 |
| nmz787 | i hope U.S. doesn't get as crowded as the rest of the world tho | 22:20 |
| katsmeow-afk | pop density of the oceans is pretty low | 22:20 |
| katsmeow-afk | find something out there that Thiel hasto buy from you | 22:21 |
| nmz787 | i like dumb ppl, as long as they're half sensible | 22:22 |
| nmz787 | but i think most ppl are just plain dumb | 22:22 |
| kanzure | you guys are growing increasingly angsty | 22:22 |
| nmz787 | lol | 22:22 |
| kanzure | take a chill pill | 22:22 |
| nmz787 | society made them illegal | 22:22 |
| katsmeow-afk | i have found the more dumb they are, the more scarey aggressive they can be | 22:24 |
| kanzure | maybe you're dumb. | 22:24 |
| jrayhawk | this conversation is going places | 22:24 |
| katsmeow-afk | obviously, i can't figure out how most of humanity works | 22:24 |
| -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+o kanzure] by ChanServ | 22:24 | |
| -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@c-67-163-157-246.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 22:25 | |
| nmz787 | lol | 22:26 |
| jrayhawk | what's that kanzure? i couldn't understand that mode change on account of how dumb it was! | 22:26 |
| jrayhawk | I CAN TAKE YE | 22:27 |
| @kanzure | i guess you could. i think you're an op. | 22:27 |
| jrayhawk | BRING IT, GNOME-BOY | 22:27 |
| jrayhawk | you are not bringing it at all and now i just look foolish | 22:28 |
| katsmeow-afk | are you wanting to kickban me, or just upping the stakes, making authority issues more obvious, or looking for a way to tell me to leave, or be quiet? | 22:29 |
| nmz787 | dumb dumb da dumb dumb | 22:29 |
| nmz787 | op==original poster? | 22:29 |
| nmz787 | (i am dumb) | 22:29 |
| yashgaroth | operator | 22:29 |
| katsmeow-afk | in listservs, op = original poster | 22:30 |
| nmz787 | wats operator? | 22:30 |
| nmz787 | to make a collect call, dial up and try again | 22:30 |
| nmz787 | ... hang up | 22:30 |
| yashgaroth | it adds an @ to your nick | 22:30 |
| katsmeow-afk | permission in the ircd flags to set channel modes to controlt he channel | 22:30 |
| yashgaroth | it's like giving your nick a hat! | 22:30 |
| nmz787 | oh | 22:30 |
| nmz787 | what kind of modes are there? | 22:30 |
| -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+o jrayhawk] by ChanServ | 22:31 | |
| * katsmeow-afk was ircop on two networks many years ago | 22:31 | |
| @jrayhawk | woo now i have a yarmulke for my nick too | 22:31 |
| katsmeow-afk | ban, quiet, akick, moderated, set other people's modes, etc | 22:31 |
| @jrayhawk | wait does this mean we're going to duel | 22:32 |
| yashgaroth | two ops enter, one op leaves | 22:32 |
| nmz787 | ahh | 22:32 |
| nmz787 | i see no hats or yarmulkes | 22:32 |
| nmz787 | maybe pidgin makes IRC lame | 22:32 |
| @kanzure | jrayhawk: ON GUARD | 22:33 |
| @jrayhawk | oh crap, now i actually have to look up IRC commands | 22:33 |
| katsmeow-afk | heh | 22:33 |
| @jrayhawk | and it's "en guard", DUMBY | 22:34 |
| katsmeow-afk | do : /raw help | 22:34 |
| katsmeow-afk | or : /cs help | 22:34 |
| katsmeow-afk | or : /ns help | 22:34 |
| yashgaroth | ooh can I have +v | 22:34 |
| katsmeow-afk | or use google | 22:34 |
| katsmeow-afk | yeas, mode # +v nick | 22:34 |
| @jrayhawk | +v does not give you a hat, it gives you a cross to bear. | 22:34 |
| katsmeow-afk | you sound bitter | 22:35 |
| nmz787 | so DIY pap smears? | 22:35 |
| @jrayhawk | fukken crosses | 22:35 |
| nmz787 | (i'm not a girl, but do have a gf) | 22:36 |
| @kanzure | your gf is going to eat your soul | 22:36 |
| nmz787 | (keep fighting if you like, and ignore me) | 22:36 |
| delinquentme | lulz | 22:36 |
| nmz787 | hah, i didnt get into biotech for nothin | 22:36 |
| delinquentme | kanz deze journals | 22:36 |
| @kanzure | delinquentme: sup? | 22:36 |
| nmz787 | that shit is a lab protocol | 22:36 |
| delinquentme | im gonna start to label these as website which have crapp indexes | 22:37 |
| @kanzure | you gonna show me the code? | 22:37 |
| @kanzure | i only saw http://pastie.org/3717567 | 22:38 |
| @jrayhawk | oh, "en garde" | 22:40 |
| @jrayhawk | fffff | 22:40 |
| delinquentme | yeah i was looking for a refactor on that | 22:41 |
| @jrayhawk | http://timecube.com/ Gene Ray is also an invaluable resource in the subject areas of being educated stupid and having snot brains. | 22:47 |
| katsmeow-afk | how many years was Banacek on tv? | 22:48 |
| @jrayhawk | not enough | 22:48 |
| katsmeow-afk | granted | 22:48 |
| katsmeow-afk | only 2 yrs, and not even full years,,, hmm | 22:49 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, i also dont think weve got a very comprehensive list | 22:57 |
| @kanzure | feel free to add publishers to it | 22:57 |
| delinquentme | so im at most 1/4th through the list | 22:58 |
| nmz787 | is timecube at all legit? | 22:59 |
| nmz787 | reads like the dr bronners soap bottle | 22:59 |
| @kanzure | timecube is a famous site for how ridiculous it is | 22:59 |
| @kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timecube | 22:59 |
| @kanzure | oh he has a fascination for marbles.. interesting. i should show him my marbles game. | 23:00 |
| @kanzure | "In 1987, this became a controversial attempt to establish a million dollar marble tournament" | 23:01 |
| @kanzure | haha. well whatever. timecube has a very special place in our hearts. | 23:02 |
| -!- _0bitcount [~0bitcount@213.37.203.109.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 23:05 | |
| @kanzure | nmz787: you should consider going to class | 23:07 |
| nmz787 | i know | 23:08 |
| @kanzure | alright. good night | 23:08 |
| nmz787 | night | 23:08 |
| -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [-o kanzure] by ChanServ | 23:08 | |
| -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [-o jrayhawk] by ChanServ | 23:09 | |
| -!- sylph_mako [~mako@118-92-207-0.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 23:12 | |
| --- Log closed Tue Apr 03 00:00:19 2012 | ||
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