| --- Log opened Thu Jun 21 00:00:46 2012 | ||
| kanzure | http://templemanautomation.com/ | 00:14 |
|---|---|---|
| kanzure | "Chris Templeman is an engineer and presumably owns Templeman Automation in Somerville. It turns out he was the driving force behind the sub $200 (if i recall correctly) PCR machine that was released by cofactor bio a while back." | 00:14 |
| kanzure | cofactor/mac cowell didn't release a thermocycler, what is avery talking about? | 00:14 |
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| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/pokered/crystal/graphs/crystal.html | 01:21 |
| kanzure | hrmmm | 01:21 |
| kanzure | 4216 is informative (0x1078) | 01:24 |
| kanzure | looks like it might be scripting or text related | 01:24 |
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| fenn | i hope nmz787 found a somewhere to sleep in chicago | 04:10 |
| fenn | i'm not good at scheduling things | 04:11 |
| fenn | never heard of MEDUSA4 (cad program) - "Users have to register to receive a free 6-month license, which can be extended in perpetuity. MEDUSA4 Personal is a fully functional version" | 04:19 |
| fenn | no parametrics though.. what's the point | 04:21 |
| fenn | well, not in the free version | 04:21 |
| fenn | crippleware still exists huh | 04:22 |
| fenn | not impressed | 04:28 |
| fenn | why does "dcoetzee" sound so familiar | 04:35 |
| fenn | seems like someone i would know, but i don't know how i know him: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Dcoetzee | 04:36 |
| fenn | stupid brain | 04:43 |
| chido | hi fenn | 04:48 |
| fenn | hi | 04:48 |
| fenn | wish granted: http://scripts.irssi.org/html/gtrans.pl.html | 04:52 |
| fenn | d'eaux! "The v1 API, which this module is based on, WILL BE SHUT OFF COMPLETELY by Google on Dec 1, 2011." | 05:05 |
| fenn | also, ffs perl wtf is up with cpan permissions | 05:06 |
| fenn | hmm threonine tastes sweet | 05:15 |
| chido | ....how | 05:16 |
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| chido | fenn: also, here are the pictures I took https://picasaweb.google.com/radka.haneckova/07FBIDIYbioWorkshopThreeBiologistsAtTheBeach | 05:17 |
| fenn | chido: can you access gen.lib.rus.ec? | 05:24 |
| fenn | hee i like your anime drawing | 05:26 |
| superkuh | Looks up to me. But other mirrors of libgen have been down lately;weird dns entries for free-books. | 05:26 |
| fenn | hrm. i got one ping reply from it | 05:27 |
| superkuh | For the last couple days free-books.to.us had been resolving to 127.0.0.2. It looks like that entry (and all others) are gone now. | 05:28 |
| fenn | supposedly there are 9TB of books in their torrent.. i think this would be a worthy project to try to clone | 05:31 |
| fenn | not sure why this is so hard to do | 05:31 |
| fenn | mail hard drive to russia with self-addressed stamped envelope | 05:32 |
| fenn | 3TB hard drive at costco is $139 | 05:32 |
| * fenn grumps | 05:32 | |
| fenn | "The history of libraries is that they get burned." | 05:38 |
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| chido | fenn: it seems I can | 07:14 |
| chido | fenn: also, which drawing? :D | 07:14 |
| fenn | in the sand | 07:15 |
| chido | ooh :) | 07:18 |
| chido | that's the protagonist of my webcomic, emptytriangle.com | 07:18 |
| fenn | ah a go player | 07:19 |
| chido | not that much anymore | 07:26 |
| chido | it's what I did before I got into biology | 07:27 |
| fenn | you let pachi do all the hard work? :P | 07:27 |
| chido | well he's stronger than his creators, I guess that's what he's here for :) | 07:28 |
| fenn | i used to use a zaurus for looking up kanji. i started keeping "appointments" on it to keep track of what i had done with each day. eventually it turned into this: http://fennetic.net/sleep/cairo.html | 07:34 |
| fenn | i'm a bit behind on transcribing | 07:35 |
| chido | oh wow | 07:36 |
| chido | looks like the output of those activity monitoring chambers for rodents | 07:36 |
| fenn | *squeak* | 07:37 |
| fenn | yeah my phase response curve is broken | 07:37 |
| chido | you sure sleep a lot | 07:38 |
| fenn | :( | 07:39 |
| fenn | it's scary to sum up your food totals for a year | 07:39 |
| chido | I don't wanna know | 07:39 |
| fenn | my most-consumed food was chocolate | 07:40 |
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| chido | but I think the sleep total is scarier, imagine what one could do with the excess time if one could abolish the need for sleep | 07:40 |
| chido | mine would be ramen probably | 07:40 |
| fenn | i'm not so concerned, it's only a 2x increase | 07:40 |
| fenn | on the other hand, i seem to waste most of my waking/active hours | 07:41 |
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| fenn | too many directions to gallop | 07:41 |
| fenn | like, i just spent an hour reading "modernist cuisine" - why? | 07:41 |
| chido | too much world out there, too little time | 07:41 |
| fenn | i hope magnesium supplementation will cut down on my "blegh" days | 07:42 |
| fenn | it's doing well so far | 07:43 |
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| kanzure | superkuh: there's also free-books.dont-exist.com | 07:48 |
| JayDugger | Bill the hotel to Uncle Sam! | 07:49 |
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| fenn | kanzure: your link is out of date | 07:49 |
| kanzure | i told anselm to mirror that torrent. i don't think he will though. | 07:50 |
| fenn | it's actually 800 torrents | 07:51 |
| kanzure | do you have them? or know which tracker has them? | 07:52 |
| kanzure | i don't seem to have a copy | 07:52 |
| fenn | it's in http://thepiratebay.se/torrent/7191627/Library_Genesis_Repository_-_832K_eBooks_torrents__dB_and_source | 07:52 |
| fenn | blah why do people archive torrent contents | 07:53 |
| fenn | is bittorrent so stupid it can't zip packets before transmitting them? | 07:53 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: so why don't we have a mirror of that torrent already? | 07:53 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: do you need me to send hard drives? | 07:53 |
| * kanzure waits for his local sysadmin to wake up | 07:54 | |
| * fenn waits for his nonlocal superposition to collapse | 07:54 | |
| kanzure | no i don't seem to know mcknew | 07:57 |
| fenn | hm the magnets file is only 68k.. that can't be right | 07:57 |
| fenn | http://fennetic.net/irc/library_genesis_magnets.txt | 07:58 |
| kanzure | fenn: did you see john griessen's thermocycler in the backlogs? it was within the past few days | 08:09 |
| kanzure | he is asking for $2k/mo for 3 months (ish) and the design seems a little bad, but i'm not sure | 08:10 |
| kanzure | i think he's calling it AirPCR | 08:10 |
| fenn | meh | 08:11 |
| fenn | too many moving parts | 08:12 |
| fenn | also, what about software | 08:12 |
| kanzure | i don't know i'm still scratching my head about this recent doozie/catastrophe | 08:13 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/cathalgarvey/OpenPyCR | 08:13 |
| fenn | i don't get it. why not just write a sane firmware for the openpcr hardware ... supposedly it's open source so it should be possible | 08:14 |
| fenn | is it actually arduino? | 08:15 |
| kanzure | yes i think so | 08:15 |
| fenn | then plug the fucker in, done. bam! | 08:15 |
| kanzure | cathal was complaining that hacking his openpcr would make it unusable for some unknown amount of time | 08:15 |
| kanzure | and that he can't afford to have it offline for more than a few hours | 08:15 |
| fenn | what, because of the cost? substitute a different arduino. that's the whole fucking point of arduino | 08:16 |
| kanzure | no not cost.. 'core lab abilities' and such (dunno man) | 08:16 |
| fenn | huh? cathal can't do cathal projects because cathal would be impacted? | 08:16 |
| fenn | jesus christ why can't anyone write decent firmware | 08:17 |
| kanzure | https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/diybio/mgjbCaMmsMk | 08:18 |
| kanzure | fenn: also the airpcr stuff.. http://gnusha.org/logs/2012-06-19.log | 08:21 |
| kanzure | 07:57 < kanzure> "It's like I've been talking about on the list -- based on a rotor that spins a carousel" | 08:21 |
| kanzure | etc. | 08:22 |
| fenn | i've never seen the with/as python idiom | 08:22 |
| fenn | is that new? | 08:22 |
| kanzure | python 3 | 08:22 |
| kanzure | no, wait | 08:23 |
| fenn | seems to have been around since 2006 .. go figure | 08:23 |
| fenn | O_DIRECT (Since Linux 2.4.10) Try to minimize cache effects of the I/O to and from this file. | 08:26 |
| fenn | seems self explanatory.. | 08:26 |
| fenn | i think this is the article cathal is looking for http://www.alexonlinux.com/direct-io-in-python | 08:28 |
| kanzure | i think someone gave that link in that thread already? | 08:29 |
| fenn | i'm not particularly interested in fixing openpcr's stupid design decisions though | 08:29 |
| kanzure | no | 08:29 |
| fenn | hm guess i should scroll down | 08:29 |
| kanzure | it's like they got high and "ooh ooh! DUDE! I KNOW WHAT WE SHOULD DO... what if, like.. all the commands were put on an sdcard.. and then the sdcard goes INTO the pcrbox!!" | 08:30 |
| fenn | why doesn't it have a bootloader? wtf. why would you delete the bootloader? come on guys | 08:30 |
| fenn | "hey guys i have this great idea, we'll make open hardware but make it so hard to hack on nobody will bother, 2) ??? , 3) profit!" | 08:34 |
| kanzure | i guess it means openpcr is pretty useful to cathal if he can't imagine living without it working for a week | 08:34 |
| fenn | what is he doing anyway? | 08:35 |
| fenn | i haven't read diybio for like 6 years | 08:35 |
| kanzure | cathal has a home setup | 08:36 |
| fenn | but what's the goal? | 08:36 |
| kanzure | he's doing http://indiebiotech.com/ which is either a blog or a company.. he's been assembling some plasmid with useful things, i think | 08:36 |
| fenn | maybe i'm dumb, but i just see a lot of technology in search of a problem | 08:37 |
| kanzure | you could say that about any technology imaginable | 08:38 |
| fenn | :\ | 08:39 |
| kanzure | :grumpy old man: "these new god damned spears are just the same as the old pointy sticks, why back in my day we had to poke a tiger in the eye to be called a man" | 08:40 |
| fenn | often i feel that people get really good at doing the wrong thing | 08:40 |
| kanzure | yes biologists are very good at that | 08:41 |
| kanzure | fuck cloning a gene out of a plasmid.. just print the dna you want | 08:41 |
| fenn | why make recombinant insulin when you can cure diabetes with magnesium from seawater | 08:41 |
| fenn | or even easier, *dont* eat crap fake food | 08:42 |
| fenn | that's like, negative technological infrastruture right there | 08:42 |
| fenn | i'm not being a luddite i swear | 08:42 |
| fenn | sometimes it seems nobody's even trying to fix problems, they're all out to get rich | 08:43 |
| fenn | the problems that do get fixed are like, "i can't read an uncached file from an sd card" and have no real impact on anything | 08:44 |
| fenn | os.sync(); open(foo); done | 08:44 |
| fenn | blargh | 08:44 |
| kanzure | i thik he was on windows, or something, so that complicates things | 08:45 |
| kanzure | step 1) uninstall windows | 08:45 |
| fenn | no | 08:45 |
| fenn | he wanted it to just be python | 08:46 |
| fenn | anyway it's a stupid problem with a stupid solution | 08:46 |
| fenn | how do i start my own cult/culture/country | 08:47 |
| fenn | i just need 15 semi-competent engineers and a small nuclear reactor | 08:47 |
| gl00m | maybe get an island | 08:47 |
| gl00m | and move from there | 08:48 |
| gl00m | ellison just got one of the hiwaiian islands | 08:48 |
| fenn | no thanks, seasteading is untenable with current manufacturing technology | 08:48 |
| fenn | i wish it werent so | 08:48 |
| gl00m | id build up a military and invade neighboring islands | 08:48 |
| kanzure | (10:45:09 AM) kanzure: how about os.sync() then open(file) | 08:48 |
| kanzure | (10:47:28 AM) Cathal Garvey: Will investigate, thanks! Have my doubts, this is a common issue but seldom resolves well | 08:48 |
| gl00m | and eventually capture some coast line | 08:48 |
| fenn | kanzure: sorry, os.sync isn't a real thing | 08:49 |
| gl00m | or alternativly, take over some african nation | 08:49 |
| gl00m | or south american country | 08:49 |
| fenn | gl00m: ugh please shut up | 08:49 |
| kanzure | fenn: aroooo... i thought you had secret knowledge about the os module :( | 08:49 |
| gl00m | <fenn> how do i start my own cult/culture/country | 08:49 |
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| kanzure | fenn: feel free to take out the trash | 08:49 |
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| @fenn | i was going to correct myself but it seems os.call disappeared and os.popen wasnt quite what i wanted | 08:49 |
| @fenn | anyway os.popen("sync"); open(foo) | 08:50 |
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| @fenn | gl00m: idiots with guns has been rehashed a million times over history | 08:51 |
| @fenn | i'm trying to build something here | 08:51 |
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| kanzure | hey what layout algorithm do i want for this data? | 08:51 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/pokered/crystal/graphs/crystal.html | 08:51 |
| kanzure | right now it's a force-directed graph | 08:52 |
| kanzure | it's a graph of which functions call which other functions | 08:52 |
| * fenn braces for impact of giant png | 08:52 | |
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| kanzure | oh it's much worse | 08:52 |
| kanzure | i'd say at least 130x worse (javascript) | 08:52 |
| @fenn | did you just kill my browser | 08:52 |
| kanzure | yes probably | 08:53 |
| kanzure | i owe you a new laptop anyway i think | 08:53 |
| @fenn | nooooo | 08:53 |
| kanzure | why didn't you ask me for my extra when i was at langton?? | 08:53 |
| @fenn | your busted shitty laptop i've been telling you to put in the trash for years? that laptop? | 08:53 |
| kanzure | the other one.. the mac | 08:53 |
| @fenn | oh. | 08:53 |
| kanzure | oh right because you'd probably hate it | 08:53 |
| @fenn | i figured it was for work | 08:53 |
| kanzure | no | 08:53 |
| @fenn | meh, apple is good hardware | 08:54 |
| @fenn | a tad expensive for what you get | 08:54 |
| kanzure | i should probably install linux on it. don't know why i have osx on it. :( | 08:54 |
| * fenn mumbles something about virtualbox | 08:55 | |
| @fenn | ok i managed to kill that tab | 08:55 |
| kanzure | anyway... large graph, think lots of lines and node | 08:56 |
| @fenn | why are you doing this in javascript? | 08:56 |
| @fenn | also i cant help but think of ghost diagrams | 08:56 |
| kanzure | i wanted to play with d3.js | 08:57 |
| kanzure | and i was annoyed that networkx didn't have a "just_fucking_show_me_the_graph()" | 08:57 |
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| @fenn | ah! it's the same person! | 08:57 |
| * fenn points | 08:57 | |
| @fenn | "the space station crashed due to unstable conditions in its orbit after exiting a time warp. At that time there was a number of highly technological advances and heretofore undiscovered lifeforms aboard the station. Much evidence of its existence is said to be in and around Berlin, including the aforementioned antenna, which was (according to stories) unmasked by East German and Soviet | 09:01 |
| @fenn | scientists." | 09:01 |
| Dr_Patrick | kanzure your graph reminds me of maltego | 09:02 |
| kanzure | i wonder how much it would cost to get a soviet scientist on payroll | 09:02 |
| kanzure | most scientists seem to work for dirt cheap anyway | 09:02 |
| @fenn | just promise you will publish them in your journal | 09:03 |
| kanzure | unfortunately i think i'll get some weird materialism/matter junk | 09:03 |
| @fenn | o like A.B. Bolonkov or whatsisname | 09:04 |
| kanzure | instead of one of the cool ones like sergey korolyov | 09:05 |
| @fenn | bolonkin | 09:05 |
| @fenn | i want a "doctorate in technical sciences" | 09:06 |
| @fenn | talk about license to speculate | 09:06 |
| @fenn | apparently bolonkin worked with korolev? i'm dubious | 09:07 |
| kanzure | we should track the still-living somewhat-cool soviet scientists | 09:08 |
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| @fenn | yeah we dont have enough russian scientists around here already~ | 09:10 |
| chido | come on leave some fun to us europeans | 09:10 |
| @fenn | actually they all do advertising | 09:10 |
| @fenn | i'm the most communist member of our commune | 09:10 |
| chido | hey I actually can go out and vote for the communists here | 09:11 |
| @fenn | somehow i doubt they're real communists | 09:12 |
| kanzure | do you have a soviet academy of sciences? | 09:12 |
| chido | no, a czech academy of sciences | 09:12 |
| kanzure | hmmm | 09:12 |
| @fenn | california academy of sciences? | 09:12 |
| chido | is there such a thing? | 09:13 |
| kanzure | do you mean chemical abstracts service (CAS)? | 09:13 |
| @fenn | they keep butterflies and lizards in a giant terrarium :( | 09:13 |
| @fenn | http://calacademy.org/ | 09:13 |
| @fenn | it is a nice museum | 09:14 |
| chido | is it the one on Berkeley campus? I tried to go there but it was too far for walking | 09:15 |
| chido | "Expression of gene-gun injected plasmid | 09:15 |
| chido | DNA in the ovine mammary gland | 09:15 |
| chido | ouch | 09:15 |
| chido | that's something I wouldn't use the gene gun for | 09:16 |
| kanzure | shooting women with guns is just what the NRA is all about! | 09:17 |
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| chido | good point | 09:21 |
| chido | and it's not like I need those glands for anything | 09:21 |
| kanzure | surrogate pregnancies are the best. i don't know how popular they are though. | 09:22 |
| chido | there has been some controversy about them here in europe | 09:24 |
| chido | but then, there's a controversy about just anything here | 09:24 |
| chido | but I like to consider it a perk, being able to grow my own embryos | 09:25 |
| chido | did you contact the NRA already about the gene gun grant? :) | 09:25 |
| kanzure | not yet- i want to ask biocurious first if they would be interested | 09:26 |
| kanzure | "June 20.2012; (Bloomberg News) -- Exactly why James Markam is alive and well is a bit of a mystery. The octogenarian has lost four siblings to cancer, heart disease, and emphysema, all before they reached the age of 62." | 09:33 |
| kanzure | "Yet the retired airline executive recalls only one bout of sickness, culminating with a chest cold, 50 years ago. Scientists are taking a deep look at Markam’s genetics to see if there’s something protecting him from illnesses that affect others his age, such as Alzheimer’s, cancer, diabetes, and heart disease." | 09:33 |
| kanzure | "Markam, 83, is one of more than 1,300 individuals identified as having what Eric Topol, Director of the Scripps Translational Science Institute, called “Teflon-coated” genes." | 09:33 |
| kanzure | "Markam, the 83-year-old San Diego resident, also takes supplements containing fish oil, red yeast, and glucosamine. He doesn't think his genes are anything special but feels lucky to have survived World War II and, later, being run over by a truck." | 09:33 |
| kanzure | "He spends most of his time now running errands and tending a small garden of roses and a lemon tree in his backyard." | 09:33 |
| kanzure | so... if runnin him over with a truck doesn't work, i'm gonna have to call highlander on this one. | 09:34 |
| kanzure | *running | 09:34 |
| Dr_Patrick | What a drag it is getting old. | 09:35 |
| kanzure | bah | 09:36 |
| kanzure | i'm more of a 12 year old than i ever was before | 09:36 |
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| @fenn | chido: heh you're the top result for "ing clock" | 09:52 |
| delinquentme | what was the process published by some intel related research about 3 months back which showed promising results in the ability to sequence multiple genomes from an ecology ? | 10:02 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, teflon genes? | 10:04 |
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| delinquentme | kanzure, i just had a kid on reddit come to me w a project that seems cool | 10:17 |
| delinquentme | he wants to build out a repo with which people can push up research thats non-published material | 10:17 |
| delinquentme | Say if you're a researcher and made an outstanding graph of something ... if that graph was in a research publication .. no problem they've got that solved. However if it was just in a presentation or something | 10:18 |
| delinquentme | They'd love to share it .. however there is no established protocol for citation | 10:18 |
| @fenn | i believe the concept you're searching for is called "universal resource locator" or URL for short | 10:19 |
| @fenn | er, uniform* | 10:19 |
| delinquentme | fenn, does that not assume that the researcher knows how to do that | 10:19 |
| delinquentme | I mean WE know how to get it on the web | 10:19 |
| @fenn | i pity the fool | 10:19 |
| delinquentme | knowledge is not uniformly distributed | 10:20 |
| delinquentme | =] | 10:20 |
| @fenn | delinquentme: i'm reading comics. what. | 10:25 |
| delinquentme | soo can I pre order the cutter yet? | 10:25 |
| delinquentme | truly i feel like an asshole asking about it but I really could use this | 10:26 |
| @fenn | make your own cutter | 10:26 |
| delinquentme | also hella could use someone who knows microfluidic design | 10:26 |
| delinquentme | as designing a new machine for every damn process that needs to happen in a biolab seems | 10:26 |
| delinquentme | non-scalable | 10:26 |
| delinquentme | it just seems like a kludgy way to go about it if it can be done in MF | 10:27 |
| delinquentme | so then its just kind of abandoned? | 10:27 |
| delinquentme | I mean kanz is like "talk to fenn" nathan is like "talk to fenn" | 10:27 |
| delinquentme | you're like " talk to carl " | 10:27 |
| delinquentme | =/ | 10:27 |
| @fenn | my cad tools suck. design is basically as done as it's going to get without actually trying to build the thing. i don't know why everyone thinks engineering is supposed to be all perfect before you do anything | 10:28 |
| @fenn | isn't there some whitepaper titled "waterfall design considered harmful" i can point to? | 10:28 |
| delinquentme | I mean aren't all methods like that permutations of " Do shit " | 10:29 |
| delinquentme | SCRUM XP wtaerfall whatever you wanna market the shit as | 10:29 |
| delinquentme | so what about the project has left you less than enamored? | 10:30 |
| delinquentme | and yes ideally everything is on open source tools | 10:30 |
| @fenn | just lack of momentum, and i never really cared about microfluidics anyway | 10:30 |
| delinquentme | however when is engineering ideal? | 10:30 |
| delinquentme | I mean the barriers to contribution on using solidworks is like $200 | 10:30 |
| delinquentme | thats substantially less than the cost of a piece of hardware | 10:31 |
| delinquentme | ( to do this ) | 10:31 |
| @fenn | well, it doesn't work on my computer | 10:31 |
| @fenn | anyway, it's not an excuse | 10:31 |
| delinquentme | oh... no windows? | 10:31 |
| @fenn | there are a zillion cad packages out there | 10:31 |
| delinquentme | but nah you guys did shit with what you had so like its certainly prgress | 10:31 |
| delinquentme | progress | 10:32 |
| delinquentme | what about the electrical rigging for the laser | 10:32 |
| delinquentme | you were working on the stage no? | 10:32 |
| @fenn | i havent thought about the laser at all | 10:32 |
| delinquentme | yeah the stage I can see being kinda boring | 10:33 |
| @fenn | "The first formal description of the waterfall model ... presented this model as an example of a flawed, non-working model." | 10:33 |
| delinquentme | did you have hand sketches ? or like something that someone could work from? | 10:33 |
| @fenn | i dont remember | 10:33 |
| delinquentme | im lost on the waterfall mentions | 10:33 |
| delinquentme | ( ive pawned it off as managerial BS ) | 10:34 |
| @fenn | "progress is seen as flowing steadily downwards (like a waterfall) through the phases of Conception, Initiation, Analysis, Design, Construction, Testing, Production/Implementation and Maintenance." | 10:34 |
| delinquentme | whats the command to run autotests in a /test dir for ruby? | 10:34 |
| delinquentme | is it just test? | 10:34 |
| delinquentme | lol | 10:35 |
| @fenn | in essence, waterfall design is the opposite of hacking | 10:35 |
| delinquentme | fenn, I mean that sounds like assholes talking to me | 10:35 |
| delinquentme | no offense meant | 10:35 |
| delinquentme | but its vacuous | 10:35 |
| @fenn | no, test is a shell utility | 10:35 |
| delinquentme | i got it ... its for bioruby | 10:37 |
| delinquentme | who would have thought that they've got something this advanced: http://www.biogems.info/ | 10:37 |
| delinquentme | like they're running continuous integration tests | 10:37 |
| delinquentme | ... BIORUBY | 10:37 |
| kanzure | figshare might be the thing your redditor wants. | 10:38 |
| delinquentme | fenn do you program in ruby or python? | 10:38 |
| @fenn | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analysis_paralysis | 10:38 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, that or git came to mind as i was typing up the statement | 10:38 |
| delinquentme | paralysis by analysis | 10:38 |
| delinquentme | yar | 10:38 |
| kanzure | nobody says the laser cutter was abandoned. and no i don't want to sell preorders to you. when were there going to be orders in the first place?? | 10:38 |
| delinquentme | I mean if no ones actively working on it | 10:40 |
| delinquentme | you're just being cocky saying " I wont let you preorder " | 10:40 |
| delinquentme | amiright? | 10:40 |
| kanzure | no | 10:41 |
| delinquentme | So lets call apples apples | 10:41 |
| kanzure | i am saying that there was never any preorders | 10:41 |
| delinquentme | and that development is at a standstill | 10:41 |
| kanzure | i just want a laser cutter, what the fuck does that have to do with preorders? | 10:41 |
| delinquentme | what does getting the last word in have to do with progress on a project? | 10:42 |
| delinquentme | O_o | 10:42 |
| delinquentme | also whos the microfluidic designer | 10:42 |
| @fenn | delinquentme: you sure throw a lot of stones | 10:42 |
| delinquentme | I want this thing so I dont have to fucking desing liquid handlers | 10:42 |
| @fenn | how's your own project going? | 10:42 |
| delinquentme | sitting and rotting | 10:42 |
| @fenn | great, so *kick* | 10:43 |
| delinquentme | well I appreciate that | 10:43 |
| kanzure | i think we just need to order parts | 10:43 |
| kanzure | i wouldn't call that a standstill? | 10:43 |
| delinquentme | but as it goes ... I'd love to have what you guys are building | 10:43 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: you'll have to build your own | 10:43 |
| @fenn | tbh i think a regular laser cutter would do just fine | 10:43 |
| delinquentme | bc I think we can agree that my desktop beast is substantially more complex than a chip | 10:43 |
| kanzure | nate and i have tested it | 10:43 |
| kanzure | nate was better at getting more specific measurements about how much it was failing | 10:44 |
| kanzure | i think he even had micrographs of how terrible it was | 10:44 |
| @fenn | "it" refers to what? | 10:44 |
| delinquentme | it = LH002 the liquid handler that currently would cost about 15g | 10:44 |
| kanzure | standard off-the-shelf laser cutter cutting pdms | 10:44 |
| delinquentme | oh nmnm | 10:45 |
| kanzure | wtf why does your liquid handler cost $15,000? | 10:45 |
| delinquentme | i've got the part list man | 10:45 |
| delinquentme | thats what it costs | 10:45 |
| kanzure | maybe your part list sucks | 10:45 |
| @fenn | yeah that's a bit extreme | 10:45 |
| delinquentme | maybe | 10:45 |
| delinquentme | there are a few encoders I could chop out | 10:45 |
| delinquentme | and a few stepper I could downgrade | 10:45 |
| * fenn sighs | 10:45 | |
| delinquentme | but really the design needs to look more like a reprap | 10:45 |
| @fenn | just use a reprap ffs | 10:45 |
| delinquentme | ffs? | 10:45 |
| delinquentme | oh lol | 10:46 |
| @fenn | "people with OCD have unwanted thoughts, while people with OCPD believe that their thoughts are correct." but what if they are correct? | 10:48 |
| @fenn | it's not my fault the world is broken | 10:48 |
| delinquentme | ? | 10:48 |
| kanzure | fenn: the cleanliness/germs OCD people seem to also be somewhat correct (although they seem to misjudge what efforts they should focus on) | 10:49 |
| @fenn | no, germ theory is bullshit | 10:49 |
| kanzure | i mean, they are correct that contamination is possible, but their estimation of the likelihood is out of whack | 10:49 |
| @fenn | OCD was linked from the analysis paralysis article | 10:49 |
| kanzure | i don't think "buy a list of things" is any sort of paralysis | 10:49 |
| @fenn | so order some stuff | 10:50 |
| kanzure | what about the other junk you wanted? | 10:50 |
| kanzure | the other somewhat-unspecified junk | 10:50 |
| @fenn | it's probably a bad time for me to be making actual decisions | 10:50 |
| kanzure | do you even have a pics laying around and shit? | 10:51 |
| @fenn | eh? | 10:51 |
| kanzure | and/or ways to make use of them | 10:51 |
| @fenn | microcontrollers? | 10:51 |
| @fenn | you mean this list? http://fennetic.net/irc/cyberfenn/wearable_wishlist.html | 10:52 |
| @fenn | all the stuff labeled "fabrication" | 10:52 |
| kanzure | do you have a current inventory list that i can compare against -_- | 10:53 |
| @fenn | hm. turns out good screwdrivers cost more than #3 | 10:53 |
| @fenn | kanzure: today i found that i had made 3 identical basil spice jars | 10:54 |
| kanzure | intentionally? | 10:54 |
| @fenn | somehow they had all disappeared into the chaos cloud and randomly reappeared at once | 10:54 |
| @fenn | actually 4 | 10:55 |
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| @fenn | anyway, i am tired. i think i'm going to retire to some third world country where people will leave me alone | 10:55 |
| @fenn | there's no way any sort of organized system is going to remain intact at langton | 10:55 |
| @fenn | it's just not going to happen | 10:56 |
| kanzure | i would think the benefits of living at langton outweigh the benefits of living in bangkok? | 10:56 |
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| kanzure | i found this nice place in mountain view next to john smart going for $1300/mo | 10:58 |
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| kanzure | are you still interested in building the wearable setup? | 11:00 |
| @fenn | why do you ask? | 11:00 |
| @fenn | (why am i talking to people? i'm not even awake) | 11:01 |
| chido | fenn: they are not very popular, ing clocks | 11:01 |
| chido | fenn: and honestly, it seemed to me quite organized at Langton, at least compared to our hackerspace, and people don't even live there | 11:01 |
| @fenn | kanzure: i beat myself up over not having a wearable every time i do my dumb-job and i'm sitting in a dark room so i can see the screen | 11:02 |
| @fenn | thinking "why am i here and not at the beach" | 11:03 |
| @fenn | chido: you didnt see the tool room | 11:03 |
| @fenn | anyway it's a constant war. i'm winning in the kitchen but at the expense of the rest of my life | 11:03 |
| chido | fenn: oh so the remarkably clean kitchen is your achievement? I salute you | 11:05 |
| chido | our kitchen is more biohazardous than my lab | 11:05 |
| chido | actually my lab is probably the cleanest place in the whole space | 11:05 |
| * fenn mumbles about metastable equilibria | 11:06 | |
| @fenn | jesus christ, OCPD is based on freudian theories | 11:09 |
| @fenn | is there a version of the DSM based on, you know, science? | 11:10 |
| chido | fenn: out of sheer curiosity, did you look at my comic only or at something else too? | 11:12 |
| @fenn | i was wondering what an "ing clock" was so i googled it, only to get more things you had done (for example the youtube video and comics on senseis.xmp.net) | 11:15 |
| @fenn | i dont know if i answered your question | 11:16 |
| @fenn | delinquentme randomly pm's me asking why i havent finished the laser cutter | 11:17 |
| @fenn | but lately i haven't been doing much of anything productive | 11:17 |
| delinquentme | i know the feeling | 11:17 |
| @fenn | i watched the whole "gantz" series in one go | 11:17 |
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| @fenn | now my circadian clock is all fucked, but i guess that was inevitable | 11:18 |
| delinquentme | im dog sitting | 11:18 |
| jrayhawk | i don't think i have any nine terabyte arrays | 11:18 |
| delinquentme | lol psuedo constructive | 11:18 |
| @fenn | i've been reading a lot about magnesium metabolism, but nobody else seems to think it's interesting | 11:18 |
| jrayhawk | i like reading things about nutrition | 11:19 |
| @fenn | mg++ | 11:19 |
| @fenn | why dont we have a karma bot | 11:19 |
| jrayhawk | "Markam, the 83-year-old San Diego resident, also takes supplements containing fish oil, red yeast, and glucosamine. He doesn't think his genes are anything special" hahaha | 11:19 |
| superkuh | All divalent cations are interesting in biology. | 11:19 |
| @fenn | 83 isnt that old | 11:20 |
| jrayhawk | i like that the guy who does basic biological maintenance is treated like some sort of crazy outlier by everyone but himself | 11:20 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: i would be happy to fund a terabyte array | 11:20 |
| kanzure | i'd be ok with a karma bot | 11:20 |
| * fenn kicks gnusha | 11:20 | |
| kanzure | or a bookmark bot | 11:20 |
| jrayhawk | i would be resentful of a karma bot | 11:21 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: i somehow doubt you'd be ok torrenting from that tracker | 11:21 |
| kanzure | actually, tpb isn't doing tracking anymore.. where are those torrents pointed at? | 11:21 |
| jrayhawk | Yeah. I'm looking around for an alternative. | 11:21 |
| @fenn | torrents dont need trackers anymore? (i'm fuzzy on this) | 11:21 |
| jrayhawk | tr=http%3a//denis.stalker.h3q.com%3a6969/announce | 11:22 |
| jrayhawk | but yes, magnet links are magic | 11:22 |
| @fenn | they're magical but they start up much more slowly | 11:23 |
| kanzure | i'm not sure why i haven't bugged thomasegi into releasing his schematics | 11:23 |
| @fenn | which is a pain when you have 800+ torrents to download | 11:23 |
| ThomasEgi | kanzure, what shematics? | 11:24 |
| delinquentme | Is it specifically a bad practice to automatically install requisite libraries? | 11:24 |
| kanzure | you (vaguely-)promised us things | 11:24 |
| ThomasEgi | what things? | 11:24 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: you should let the user know what you are installing and what the dependencies are, and ask for approval. | 11:24 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: just use install scripts | 11:24 |
| ThomasEgi | the circuit for the electroporation? | 11:24 |
| kanzure | ThomasEgi: yes i think that was one of them? | 11:24 |
| delinquentme | I mean if you're running a program and you want it to function ... wouldn't you just say " well if they want to run something ... they need the libs involved to run it .. so just install it" | 11:24 |
| delinquentme | Ok so ask for approval .. that works | 11:24 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: look up debian packages or eggs or cpan or something. | 11:25 |
| kanzure | don't roll your own packaging system -_- | 11:25 |
| delinquentme | nah this is for a ruby gem | 11:25 |
| @fenn | gem is a package manager | 11:25 |
| delinquentme | its requiring libxml-ruby | 11:25 |
| kanzure | yeah, gem asks those things iirc | 11:25 |
| ThomasEgi | kanzure, the driver stages are on my ftp since february | 11:25 |
| kanzure | ThomasEgi: oops. i seem to have forgotten that :( link again? | 11:25 |
| ThomasEgi | same with the constant current source for tDCS | 11:25 |
| delinquentme | but it just fails with an assert where I think dling and installing would be more useful | 11:25 |
| kanzure | no sometimes you don't have "full" dependencies | 11:26 |
| kanzure | like you have some things that only work with a dependency | 11:26 |
| kanzure | however, ruby gem maintainers are notoriously varied and yours might just be an idiot/jerk | 11:26 |
| ThomasEgi | kanzure, http://home.arcor.de/positiveelectron/files/analog-frontent-dna-transfer.png it is just the analog frontend for constant-current pulses | 11:26 |
| kanzure | yeah i don't remember this url. don't think you've shared it before. | 11:27 |
| ThomasEgi | i think i mentioned that you need to tell me if you need any more detailed or complete shematics | 11:27 |
| delinquentme | Is installing a new package via an autotest script a bad practice? | 11:27 |
| @fenn | whee kicad | 11:27 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: yes | 11:27 |
| ThomasEgi | http://home.arcor.de/positiveelectron/files/controllable-cc-source.png | 11:27 |
| ThomasEgi | the tDCS source is pretty much good to go. | 11:28 |
| ThomasEgi | you could add the current limters from rdb's design | 11:28 |
| kanzure | fenn: so why don't we use thomas for more things | 11:28 |
| kanzure | wait, a png of a kicad file? | 11:28 |
| ThomasEgi | just a screenshot | 11:28 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, why though? So you're running autotests to ensure that everything is properly functioning before doing development with it | 11:28 |
| @fenn | ThomasEgi: where's the directory listing? | 11:29 |
| ThomasEgi | i slammed those things together within 5 minutes. i didn't bother to set up a project for it | 11:29 |
| ThomasEgi | fenn, disabled by the provider | 11:29 |
| kanzure | yeah, this doesn't work http://home.arcor.de/positiveelectron/files/ | 11:29 |
| kanzure | ThomasEgi: would you like hosting on diyhpl.us? | 11:29 |
| ThomasEgi | nope^ | 11:29 |
| chido | fenn: I meant http://chid0ri.deviantart.com/ (which has stuff a bit different from the comic) | 11:29 |
| kanzure | haha deviantart | 11:29 |
| ThomasEgi | i have enough hosting space on a varienty of ftp's | 11:29 |
| @fenn | chido: no i havent looked at that yet | 11:29 |
| kanzure | ThomasEgi: yes but we can't find the files without you explicitly linking :( | 11:29 |
| kanzure | i would have never known | 11:29 |
| ThomasEgi | kanzure, i am pretty sure i linked it to the person who requested it. | 11:30 |
| ThomasEgi | the day i was asked for it | 11:30 |
| ThomasEgi | because it only took me a few minutes to draw and upload | 11:30 |
| ThomasEgi | if you need a complete circuit, including power supplies and logic, you need to tell me. it is pretty much the analog part | 11:30 |
| ThomasEgi | guess most people here can use an arduino | 11:31 |
| ThomasEgi | as you can see, most values are missing from the parts,too. so back when i made it there apparently was no immediate need to build it from that shematic | 11:32 |
| ThomasEgi | feel free to request :) | 11:32 |
| kanzure | thermocycler, centrifuge, ultracentrifuge, spectrophotometer, spin coater | 11:34 |
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| * kanzure is being a jerk | 11:34 | |
| @fenn | woah woah woah | 11:34 |
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| @fenn | i just want a battery charger | 11:34 |
| kanzure | what type of battery? | 11:34 |
| @fenn | li-ion, i want to be able to source and sink at the same voltage though | 11:35 |
| ThomasEgi | fenn, steup/down + cccv charging | 11:35 |
| @fenn | there are a number of things i dont understand, like how do you switch from "straight through" to battery power without causing some disruption | 11:35 |
| ThomasEgi | fenn, add filter :) | 11:36 |
| @fenn | are battery management IC's worth using? | 11:36 |
| ThomasEgi | detect when the voltage before the filter drops, switch over to the battery | 11:36 |
| ThomasEgi | fenn, depends | 11:36 |
| ThomasEgi | if you want a long battery life and a reliable circuit. yes | 11:36 |
| ThomasEgi | if your circuit is a charge-20-times-and-discharg led throwie, probably not worth it | 11:37 |
| ThomasEgi | kanzure, those are mostly mechanical things. | 11:37 |
| @fenn | so it's primarily adjusting the charge rate to maintain battery temperature? | 11:37 |
| kanzure | making a plastic chunk to hold things isn't a big deal | 11:37 |
| @fenn | heh | 11:38 |
| @fenn | 99% of lab equipment is plastic crap to hold the magic crystal | 11:38 |
| @fenn | the other 1% is low noise linear amplifiers | 11:38 |
| ThomasEgi | hm. low noise amplifier.. that sounds more like a thing for me :) | 11:38 |
| @fenn | yeah so EMG is another thing i want to ask about, maybe not now though | 11:39 |
| @fenn | (electro myo graphy) | 11:39 |
| ThomasEgi | hm. i currently am designing an microphone am that might qualify as EMG input stage | 11:40 |
| @fenn | i know | 11:40 |
| ThomasEgi | altho,, it is so freaking hyper sensitive that you can't use it at free air | 11:40 |
| @fenn | something about kicking physics' ass | 11:40 |
| ThomasEgi | indeed | 11:40 |
| ThomasEgi | i pretty much hit the absolute lower limit of what's somehow possible | 11:40 |
| @fenn | well, is it expensive? | 11:40 |
| ThomasEgi | no | 11:41 |
| ThomasEgi | surprisingly not. | 11:41 |
| ThomasEgi | but it is darn sensitive | 11:41 |
| ThomasEgi | might be too sensitive for EMG | 11:41 |
| @fenn | add a resistor | 11:41 |
| ThomasEgi | i mean. if you open a 5mm wide slit in the case you can forget your signal | 11:41 |
| @fenn | huh? | 11:41 |
| ThomasEgi | fenn, the resistor would screw the frequency response :D | 11:41 |
| ThomasEgi | well i guess for EMG that's tollerable. | 11:41 |
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| ThomasEgi | as you are not bound to the 20pF input coupling | 11:42 |
| @fenn | well i am just guessing in the dark | 11:42 |
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| @fenn | how can it be "too sensitive" | 11:42 |
| ThomasEgi | fenn, got me a number of the signal voltage that's to be expected ? | 11:42 |
| ThomasEgi | well.. | 11:42 |
| ThomasEgi | if you have that amp on your desk, it detects when you move through the room. | 11:43 |
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| @fenn | i'm thinking like the 10x attenuator on your average bench scope | 11:43 |
| ThomasEgi | not because of audio. but because of the electric fields you influence. | 11:43 |
| @fenn | sounds perfect | 11:44 |
| ThomasEgi | wait. that's emg, not eeg | 11:44 |
| ThomasEgi | that means. the actual signal is withing the range of several millivolts? | 11:44 |
| @fenn | um | 11:45 |
| ThomasEgi | nevermind. then^ input noise figure of that amp is within the signle-digit nanovolt range | 11:45 |
| ThomasEgi | emg should be a piece of cake then | 11:45 |
| @fenn | also eog (detects eye movement because the eye is electrically charged) | 11:46 |
| ThomasEgi | can't be that hard. bandwith of eeg and emg are very limited. thus noise usualy is no real problem | 11:47 |
| * fenn searches for quantitative values for voltages generated | 11:47 | |
| ThomasEgi | action potentials usualy are in the milivolt area. even if it is within microvolts. with a bandwith as low as a couple of hz you'll still get an excellent signal/noise ratio | 11:48 |
| @fenn | EOG is 0.4-1.0 mV | 11:49 |
| @fenn | probably less, since you can't stick the electrode right on the eye | 11:49 |
| ThomasEgi | piece of cake then | 11:49 |
| @fenn | http://www.bem.fi/book/28/28.htm some stuff on EOG | 11:50 |
| @fenn | a distraction | 11:50 |
| ThomasEgi | all you have to do is make sure to build the circuit properly, and even more important, build a good case / use well shielded cables | 11:50 |
| @fenn | why can't i have the amp right next to the electrode? | 11:51 |
| ThomasEgi | hm theoretically possible. | 11:51 |
| ThomasEgi | but the amp also needs a power supply, and that needs to be very low noise, | 11:51 |
| @fenn | conversely, how small can the amp circuit be? | 11:51 |
| ThomasEgi | and it still needs to be shielded from the rest of the environment | 11:51 |
| @fenn | smaller circuit = less shielding | 11:51 |
| ThomasEgi | you always need to shield the same. just the case size differs | 11:52 |
| @fenn | but it's less mass | 11:52 |
| ThomasEgi | true. | 11:52 |
| @fenn | also being smaller reduces the flux of any given circuit | 11:52 |
| @fenn | the magnetic flux at least, not sure about capacitance | 11:53 |
| ThomasEgi | if you have an external powersupply that is already pretty smooth and shielded, you might be able to squeeze the last power stabilisation and amp on a pcb which is a bit bigger than a coin | 11:53 |
| @fenn | i think this is often done in EEG, called "active electrode" | 11:53 |
| ThomasEgi | magnetic flux has almost no influence on most applications. unless you are working with inductors. | 11:53 |
| ThomasEgi | those "active eletrodes" sounds more like active impedance converters. they don't amplify anything. | 11:54 |
| ThomasEgi | just reduce the requirements for the attached cable | 11:54 |
| @fenn | heh "They use a lithium cell in each electrode for power" | 11:56 |
| @fenn | one way to get low noise power | 11:56 |
| ThomasEgi | i wouldn't use those in a DIY project | 11:57 |
| ThomasEgi | it requires you to have very low-voltage circuitry. | 11:57 |
| ThomasEgi | which isn't commonly available for most people | 11:57 |
| @fenn | 3V is too low? | 11:57 |
| @fenn | 2 batteries is 6V | 11:57 |
| @fenn | anyway, i find it unelegant | 11:58 |
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| ThomasEgi | for most amplifiers 5V is the absolute minimum operating voltage | 11:58 |
| ThomasEgi | and the parts with 5V support are quite rare already | 11:59 |
| ThomasEgi | starting it 9V you'll get a much bigger choice | 11:59 |
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| @fenn | a lot of this shielding could just be an aluminum block machined into shape | 12:00 |
| ThomasEgi | anything. all it has to do is beeing well-conductive , and fully enclose the circuit | 12:01 |
| @fenn | why do amplifiers need such high voltages? | 12:02 |
| ThomasEgi | most do. not all | 12:03 |
| @fenn | weird. i just remembered helping max hodack figure out op amps | 12:04 |
| ThomasEgi | yeah. from the outside, opamps are just blackboxes | 12:04 |
| ThomasEgi | but in the inside you usualy have a whole bunch of transistors doing a variety of things | 12:04 |
| ThomasEgi | in some cases there are many transistors in series somewhere , they simply need a certain voltage to reach all their operating potential and bias currents | 12:05 |
| @fenn | huh max hodak worked in a primate lab doing brain machine interface data analysis | 12:06 |
| ThomasEgi | anyway. a few extra volts usualy help making everything easier | 12:07 |
| ThomasEgi | especially stabelizing powersupply can profit from higher voltage | 12:07 |
| @fenn | https://www.maxhodak.com/notes/2009/06/29/the-hard-problem-of-brain-machine-interfacing.html | 12:07 |
| ThomasEgi | altho for the given frequency and amplitude range there are many exellent parts with superb power supply rejection available | 12:07 |
| kanzure | "Decoding the signals isn’t the hard part: getting the signals captive is. Current recording technology, put simply, sucks. Really, really badly. Current implants only pick up around 4 cells per electrode, last an average of 3 years before being encapsulated in fibrous tissue by the brain (hypothesized to be an immune response) and rendered useless." | 12:08 |
| kanzure | yep | 12:08 |
| ThomasEgi | yeah but that's not an electrical problem | 12:08 |
| kanzure | "Electrode technology is generally seen as a back room technician thing; at best, it’s something for application-agnostic biomedical engineers of more arcane subspecialities to publish is J. Neuroeng. or J. Neurosci. Meth. but that low-level tech-stuff just isn’t worth a Nature paper, clearly. This goes to the ‘best neuroscientist’ perception — decoding brain activity sounds hard. Not to discount decoding, it’s true that it is hard also | 12:09 |
| ThomasEgi | but more a problem of getting the right electrode materials/geometry/size/count implanted | 12:09 |
| kanzure | "A vendor makes the recording systems and headstages, which the scientist buys to understand the brain. This is a problem. We need to realize that the block is almost entirely the recording technology we have to play with. That’s the bottleneck. Until this is resolved, we won’t have full BMI." | 12:09 |
| ThomasEgi | on the electrical end, recording those signals really is not that much of a task. wiring it up is. | 12:10 |
| kanzure | his update is silly.. optogenetics has little to do with better recording technology | 12:10 |
| ThomasEgi | that is the neurons to the input of the amp | 12:10 |
| @fenn | yeah that was what anselm was working on (and gave up) | 12:10 |
| @fenn | voltage dependent dyes | 12:10 |
| kanzure | he gave up on optogenetics? | 12:10 |
| @fenn | well, put on hold indefinitely | 12:10 |
| kanzure | go on | 12:10 |
| kanzure | i seem to recall him doing a few mouse lines with working optogenetic triggers | 12:11 |
| @fenn | he thinks it will take too long to develop, given the current state of gene synthesis and the long turnaround time | 12:11 |
| kanzure | to develop what? | 12:11 |
| @fenn | voltage sensitive dyes | 12:11 |
| kanzure | don't those already exist? | 12:11 |
| @fenn | specifically, the kind you can express in neurons | 12:11 |
| @fenn | i wish people would maintain their blogs | 12:12 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/startup-science-2012/max-hodack.txt | 12:13 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/fbi-diybio-2012/max-hodack-gene-synthesis.txt | 12:13 |
| @fenn | adding robots helps | 12:14 |
| @fenn | s/adding/integrating/ | 12:14 |
| kanzure | yet another sequencing costs graph http://www.technologyreview.com/graphiti/427720/bases-to-bytes/ | 12:14 |
| kanzure | huh they estimate 100k human genomes have been sequenced? | 12:15 |
| kanzure | where's all this data.. i can hardly get 1000 human genomes off of s3 | 12:15 |
| @fenn | "privacy" | 12:16 |
| @fenn | because defeating death comes in second place to "privacy" | 12:16 |
| kanzure | if there's really some sort of valuable thing protected by privacy, then it should also be valuable enough to steal | 12:16 |
| kanzure | so what sort of things could i steal or blackmail people with, if i know their genome | 12:17 |
| kanzure | like.. i can adjust their health insurance rates? :handwaving: | 12:17 |
| @fenn | you can spike their tea with normally harmless compounds | 12:17 |
| @fenn | or see that they have a predisposition for being cranky | 12:17 |
| @fenn | yeah, that's it. | 12:18 |
| @fenn | man i'm so sick of entrepreneurs | 12:18 |
| kanzure | we should go dig up graves of old, dead smart people and sequence their genomes before the dna degrades | 12:18 |
| @fenn | we should make clones of existing smart people before they die | 12:19 |
| @fenn | like me for instance :P | 12:19 |
| kanzure | well i don't really mean "smart" but i just mean- surely there's something really useful in all these graves | 12:19 |
| kanzure | unique protein mutants and shit | 12:20 |
| @fenn | you can just do population genetics on ashkenazi jews | 12:20 |
| kanzure | haha | 12:20 |
| @fenn | what | 12:20 |
| @fenn | it's a known fact their IQ is some percentage higher | 12:20 |
| kanzure | yeah i know, | 12:20 |
| kanzure | but you were also implying that they somehow have a representative sample of the other stuff i could get from graverobbing | 12:21 |
| @fenn | feynman, einstein, von neumann, etc | 12:21 |
| @fenn | well it's easier to get samples from a population than from specific people | 12:21 |
| @fenn | also you get more data | 12:21 |
| kanzure | i bet parents would pay to splice in some mozart into their little tikes | 12:22 |
| @fenn | ah crap, sigmund freud | 12:22 |
| kanzure | was mozart burried? | 12:22 |
| kanzure | damn it do i have to make this grave map myself? | 12:23 |
| kanzure | "Although Mozart is buried somewhere in Vienna's St. Marx cemetery, the exact location is unknown; the current monument and 'grave' are the results of an educated guess. " | 12:23 |
| kanzure | damn it | 12:23 |
| Dr_Patrick | nice | 12:23 |
| Dr_Patrick | Yeah i think we should do away with 'breeding' and have it be more of a selective 'character creation' process | 12:24 |
| @fenn | 'much awareness of "Ashkenazi Jews" as an ethnic group or category stems from the large number of genetic studies' | 12:24 |
| kanzure | fenn: there used to be this really good article that outlined the particular mutations and their side effects in ashkenazi populations | 12:24 |
| kanzure | tbh bringing up ashkenazis is almost cliche now heh | 12:24 |
| @fenn | so there you go, already done. | 12:24 |
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| kanzure | 2009-06-06.log:13:43 < kanzure> ashkenazi papers that I was talking about: http://heybryan.org/books/papers/ashkenazi/ | 12:25 |
| kanzure | 2011-05-12.log:08:01 < kanzure> ashkenazi 23andme data https://rapidshare.com/files/961006780/ASHK.tar.gz | 12:25 |
| kanzure | ~/papers/ashkenazi is empty. hrm. | 12:26 |
| @fenn | 23andme data? | 12:26 |
| @fenn | so, uh, you have any studies on correlation between genetics and IQ? | 12:26 |
| @fenn | genetics is great and all but it's useless unless there's correlated data | 12:27 |
| kanzure | well, no. i'm really confused about this folder being empty. | 12:27 |
| kanzure | maybe it's on my backups. | 12:27 |
| kanzure | here is where i found ASHK.tar.gz (which, i don't have a copy of, wtf) | 12:27 |
| kanzure | http://www.euvolution.com/futurist-transhuman-news-blog/astronomy/ashkenazi-23andme-v3-genotype-for-the-taking-gene-expression.php | 12:27 |
| Dr_Patrick | prolly al quaida | 12:27 |
| kanzure | also this thing: | 12:27 |
| kanzure | https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlJjaPERgZNadDh1TXowUnR4TFN3MmhEWl9EbXZQd0E&authkey=CM_q04kO&hl=en&authkey=CM_q04kO#gid=0 | 12:27 |
| kanzure | seems to be a list of a few public domain datasets | 12:28 |
| kanzure | huh kenneth reitz is on that list (heroku/python-requests) | 12:28 |
| kanzure | bastian greshake? isn't that gedankenstuecke | 12:29 |
| kanzure | dan bolser (faceface).. damn, ##hplusroadmap represent | 12:29 |
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| @fenn | ok so i make 23andme data public, big deal | 12:30 |
| @fenn | what do you do with it? | 12:30 |
| Dr_Patrick | GATTACA | 12:31 |
| kanzure | Dr_Patrick: you're annoying me | 12:31 |
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| chido | oooh so it really does happen | 12:31 |
| kanzure | he's not a very coherent person | 12:31 |
| kanzure | i'm mostly confused by him and he doesn't seem to provide any substance | 12:32 |
| @fenn | some people feel rewarded by making noise | 12:32 |
| * chido will sit in the corner and be really quiet | 12:32 | |
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| kanzure | chido: haha it's not that bad | 12:32 |
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| chido | I'm pretty insubstantial myself :) | 12:33 |
| kanzure | chido: well for one, you seem to be able to hold a conversation | 12:33 |
| kanzure | and this other guy doesn't seem to be able to do even that | 12:33 |
| @fenn | |87ack13|: please, just make an intelligent contribution, | 12:33 |
| |87ack13| | OK! | 12:34 |
| @fenn | resist the impulse to shout out whatever comes to mind | 12:34 |
| kanzure | fenn: so anyway, yes, the 23andme data isn't always that helpful except when you happen to have an obviously-useful protein mutant or something | 12:35 |
| @fenn | mikolaj habryn, i know, uh, them. | 12:36 |
| kanzure | although, i think they only sample SNPs that have been previously studied? erm, that can't be right | 12:36 |
| @fenn | sounds right | 12:36 |
| chido | so can their database be accessed or not? I think I missed that part | 12:36 |
| @fenn | 23andme data is private | 12:36 |
| chido | I just discovered a bit of news that they patented something | 12:36 |
| @fenn | the google doc is the list of publically released 23andme data | 12:36 |
| kanzure | they probably do internal studies on their datasets | 12:37 |
| @fenn | probably a diagnostic predictor | 12:37 |
| @fenn | "you are more likely to get x disease" | 12:37 |
| kanzure | i think that google doc is old- there are larger lists floating around somewhere iirc | 12:37 |
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| kanzure | :( why don't i have ASHK.tar.gz | 12:39 |
| kanzure | /home/bryan/public_html/irc/23andme/ASHK.tar.gz | 12:39 |
| kanzure | go me! | 12:39 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/23andme/ASHK.tar.gz | 12:39 |
| @fenn | it took that long to run locate? | 12:40 |
| @fenn | btw have i mentioned tracker-search? it's not bad | 12:40 |
| kanzure | well, i was only looking locally | 12:40 |
| @fenn | we need a librarian | 12:40 |
| kanzure | isn't that you >:| | 12:40 |
| @fenn | no i'm too busy doing dishes | 12:41 |
| kanzure | i'm too busy scraping the papers | 12:41 |
| kanzure | ... or something | 12:41 |
| kanzure | so ASHK.bim looks like this: | 12:42 |
| kanzure | 1rs44772120720170A | 12:42 |
| kanzure | 1rs309431507424290A | 12:42 |
| kanzure | 1rs313197207425840G | 12:42 |
| kanzure | 1rs1212481907664090A | 12:42 |
| kanzure | blah | 12:42 |
| kanzure | 1 rs4477212 0 72017 0 A | 12:43 |
| kanzure | 1 rs3094315 0 742429 0 A | 12:43 |
| kanzure | 1 rs3131972 0 742584 0 G | 12:43 |
| kanzure | so is this just a single person? i don't understand | 12:43 |
| ThomasEgi | wow.. one second to the next. thunder, very heavy rainfall. storm. | 12:46 |
| ThomasEgi | 5 minutes later.. everything is over | 12:46 |
| @fenn | chido: your character studies are awesome | 12:49 |
| @fenn | there's definitely a diybio comic in here somewhere | 12:49 |
| chido | fenn: not sure what you are referring to but thank you! | 12:50 |
| @fenn | i'm sorta randomly clicking around, right now i'm looking at http://chid0ri.deviantart.com/art/concepts-III-192138840 | 12:51 |
| chido | fenn: I thought about working on my comic before getting into the whole biology thing, but I decided to rather do something myself than to make up people who do it | 12:51 |
| chido | if I fail, I still can go back to my concept :) | 12:51 |
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| kanzure | chido: fail what? fail to do things? | 12:55 |
| chido | kanzure: fail to educate myself enough to do things, and do things... | 12:55 |
| @fenn | 1) define the problem 2) solve the problem | 12:59 |
| kanzure | 1) pokemon 2) catch them all? | 13:00 |
| delinquentme | anyone in here know about travisci? | 13:00 |
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| mikehuntstinks | someone in another chan asked me to change my name | 13:05 |
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| delinquentme | Sooo IDK if anyone wants to fly to pittsburgh for the weekend | 13:13 |
| delinquentme | but nate is here apparently and the reddit global meetup is gonna be at a bar I used to frequent | 13:13 |
| delinquentme | and i've got a few bio chicks who need some sense talked into | 13:14 |
| delinquentme | one w a neuro degree who doing air traffic control instead of gen AI | 13:14 |
| * AlonzoTG wants biomed degree. | 13:14 | |
| AlonzoTG | but can barely afford to replace his glasses which broke yesterday. =\ | 13:15 |
| -!- mikehuntstinks is now known as |87ack13| | 13:15 | |
| @fenn | obligatory skynet reference | 13:17 |
| -!- |87ack13| is now known as StStephen | 13:18 | |
| StStephen | skip the degrees, and go straight to the diy stuff | 13:18 |
| StStephen | you can get tutorials and course ware online for free | 13:19 |
| AlonzoTG | In theory, that's a marvelous idea. | 13:19 |
| AlonzoTG | But leaves open how to get income... | 13:19 |
| AlonzoTG | =\ | 13:19 |
| AlonzoTG | I'm writing a paper to respond to another paper entitled "coalescing minds". | 13:19 |
| StStephen | youll end up working at mcdonalds | 13:21 |
| AlonzoTG | =\ | 13:22 |
| AlonzoTG | you can't fund your rent much less research off that kind of wage. | 13:23 |
| delinquentme | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZJLIgK26dw&feature=youtu.be | 13:38 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: what is it? | 13:38 |
| delinquentme | aubreys reponses to AMAs | 13:38 |
| delinquentme | or the AMA | 13:38 |
| delinquentme | its pretty long though | 13:38 |
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| @fenn | oyasumi | 13:42 |
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| gedankenstuecke | kanzure: yep, that's me | 14:54 |
| kanzure | http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4144061 | 14:56 |
| kanzure | "to attend the weekly behavioral genetics seminar ("journal club") at my alma mater university each week during the school year, and from the seminar I have learned about professional articles that dispel common misconceptions about human behavioral genetics. | 14:56 |
| kanzure | Turkheimer, E. (2012). Genome wide association studies of behavior are social science. In K. S. Plaisance & T.A.C. Reydon (Eds.) Philosophy of Behavioral Biology (pp. 43-64). New York, NY: Springer." | 14:56 |
| kanzure | http://people.virginia.edu/~ent3c/papers2/Turkheimer%20GWAS%20EWAS%20Final.pdf | 14:56 |
| kanzure | hey, look! someone has my same terrible directory structure! | 14:56 |
| kanzure | oh god what have i done | 14:56 |
| kanzure | oh their his own papers. | 14:56 |
| gedankenstuecke | kanzure: and 23andme tests a bunch of snps, so they are more or less evenly spaced along the whole genome | 14:57 |
| kanzure | vi in a browser http://mit.edu/~georgiou/www/vi/ (with dropbox? what?) | 15:01 |
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| kanzure | hrm why is nanoengineer on pinterest? http://pinterest.com/source/nanoengineer-1.com/ | 15:36 |
| brownies | kanzure: the other day on HN someone was hating on Kalman filters -_- | 15:41 |
| brownies | "I don't like Kalman filters, because they're too complicated and require a PhD in mathematics to understand! So instead I wrote my own elegant replacement!" | 15:41 |
| brownies | ...sorry, just needed to vent about that somewhere. | 15:43 |
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| delinquentme | brownies, did you blast them back? | 16:06 |
| delinquentme | might have helped them more there than here.... | 16:07 |
| brownies | delinquentme: there's a threshold of ... "cleverness" ... after which i prefer to just not engage | 16:07 |
| delinquentme | should I nod | 16:08 |
| delinquentme | or give you my opinion? | 16:08 |
| brownies | besides, this is crystal clear! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalman_filter | 16:08 |
| brownies | delinquentme: opinion, sure | 16:08 |
| delinquentme | Anyone who is slightly intelligent will have people who are less intelligent | 16:09 |
| delinquentme | welcome to the number of scientists i blasted for their shitty excuses on " I dont have time to make it simpler " | 16:09 |
| delinquentme | Would you like to see a world where nanotech is talked about more than kim kardashian? | 16:09 |
| delinquentme | I would | 16:09 |
| delinquentme | know how we make that world happen? | 16:09 |
| delinquentme | simplify. | 16:09 |
| brownies | delinquentme: i agree, but what i tend to disengage on is more "closed-mindedness to other ideas" rather than "this person simply doesn't know other ideas" | 16:10 |
| brownies | hm, you make a fair point, though. | 16:10 |
| delinquentme | but as the educated ones | 16:10 |
| delinquentme | ( and correct me if im wrong here ) | 16:10 |
| delinquentme | it is US | 16:10 |
| delinquentme | who are the best equipped for simplification | 16:10 |
| delinquentme | not only that ... but its a solid mental excercise ... especially for those interested in startups | 16:10 |
| delinquentme | does that dude with a million dollars have any more an inclination to know the minutiae of this subject than someone not as intelligent as myself | 16:11 |
| delinquentme | maybs. | 16:11 |
| delinquentme | Not to mention I cant begin to number the people in here who have helped me learn | 16:12 |
| brownies | but there has to be some sort of filter, right? | 16:12 |
| brownies | and there it is: you came here *wanting* to learn | 16:12 |
| delinquentme | true | 16:13 |
| delinquentme | I mean by no means is this a grand unified theory | 16:13 |
| delinquentme | but if I want to make an impact in the hopes that one day I can open a hot blonde at the bar with " string theory or XYZ " | 16:13 |
| delinquentme | its a beginning | 16:13 |
| delinquentme | but then again filters ... and someones going to say "wtf hot blonde' | 16:13 |
| kanzure | you forgot to specify which gender | 16:14 |
| yashgaroth | if you're getting into science to pick up women (or men)... | 16:15 |
| yashgaroth | don't, is what I'm saying | 16:16 |
| delinquentme | yashgaroth, im an optimist | 16:16 |
| delinquentme | but I know what you're saying | 16:16 |
| delinquentme | brownies, have you talked to the PCR girl a all? | 16:16 |
| delinquentme | is she making any progress? | 16:16 |
| kanzure | "the pcr girl" ?? | 16:16 |
| kanzure | are you talking about stacey kuznetsov? you should just call her stacey | 16:17 |
| brownies | sorry, no, but i should | 16:17 |
| * brownies is drowning in email | 16:17 | |
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| * Jenda` got some recordings from the event and has absolutely no idea what to do with then | 17:31 | |
| Jenda` | http://mirror.vpsfree.cz/videohrach/video/diybio12/ | 17:31 |
| Jenda` | It is hard to understand for me as a non-native speaker. | 17:31 |
| yashgaroth | are those from chido's audio recorder? | 17:32 |
| Jenda` | Yes. You just uncovered a great conspiracy. | 17:32 |
| Jenda` | The quality is really bad :( | 17:32 |
| yashgaroth | bryan was looking into getting all the powerpoint slides from the presenters, and he does have the text transcriptions, so... | 17:33 |
| Jenda` | Yes, I haven't assumed that someone would be so crazy to write down everything :) | 17:35 |
| yashgaroth | haha, well she does have the recording of his talk, which is good since he naturally doesn't have that transcript | 17:35 |
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| JayDugger | For those with money, a second-hand 3d printer (Prusa, working, I think) sells on eBay right now. (http://r.ebay.com/MUJJES) | 17:46 |
| kanzure | yeah i had a very hard time transcribing my own speech | 17:49 |
| kanzure | too busy saying things i guess | 17:50 |
| kanzure | Jenda`: git clone git://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki.git | 17:50 |
| yashgaroth | any news on getting people's slides? | 17:50 |
| kanzure | if you make any corrections in transcripts/fbi-diybio-2012/ i'd appreciate the changes.. i know i got things wrong in a few places ("is not" => "is") | 17:50 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: it's the federal government.. these things take quite a while | 17:50 |
| yashgaroth | well you at least filed the paperwork right? | 17:51 |
| kanzure | yes? | 17:51 |
| yashgaroth | okay good, we should have the slides in 12-18 months then | 17:51 |
| kanzure | i regret this ps3 thing i bought | 17:53 |
| kanzure | i see 10 transactions from "PLAYSTATION NETWORK" on my debit card all for $1.00 | 17:53 |
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| yashgaroth | it's probing...testing for weaknesses | 17:54 |
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| -!- umbrella is now known as |um87311a| | 20:31 | |
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| kanzure | when i use gephi it's never like this | 21:40 |
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| kanzure | http://vimeo.com/9726202 | 21:40 |
| kanzure | maybe playing the weird music will help | 21:40 |
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| kanzure | it's more like "lots of wonderful java errors and ui issues, with only a lame 'export to static image' feature" | 21:44 |
| kanzure | and the video shows some 3d environment for selecting nodes and manipulating graphs | 21:45 |
| |VIPPER| | kanzure: i missed if you said you'd used maltego or not | 21:50 |
| |VIPPER| | node related infografic data mining | 21:50 |
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| --- Log closed Fri Jun 22 00:00:47 2012 | ||
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