| --- Log opened Thu Apr 24 00:00:10 2014 | ||
| --- Day changed Thu Apr 24 2014 | ||
| xentrac | if φ(3, n, 0) = 4, then you can calculate 4 - 3 = n = 1 | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| xentrac | if φ(3, n, 1) = 12, then you can calculate 12 / 3 = n = 4 | 00:00 |
| xentrac | if φ(3, n, 2) = 81, then you can calculate log₃ 81 = 4 | 00:00 |
| xentrac | but it's quite difficult to come up with a general way to solve φ(a, b, c) = d | 00:01 |
| xentrac | consider, for example, that calcjulating φ(n, 4, 2) = 81 involves instead calculating ⁴√81 | 00:03 |
| fenn | fwiw there is no general solution to even quintic polynomials | 00:03 |
| xentrac | now there are clearly things that you have to express with loops and conditionals and mutation and so on | 00:04 |
| xentrac | but by expressing things as algebraic formulas when you can, instead of using those more expressive and powerful constructs, you preserve more power of manipulation | 00:04 |
| xentrac | finding zeroes of quintic polynomials is not particularly hard; you just can't do it with an equation | 00:04 |
| xentrac | you need an algorithm instead | 00:05 |
| xentrac | but there are lots of other things you can do with quintic polynomials that you can't do with general algorithms | 00:05 |
| fenn | this isn't selling me on equations | 00:05 |
| xentrac | heh | 00:06 |
| fenn | your solutions for n explained what the ackerman function does a lot better than the wikipedia article did, though | 00:06 |
| xentrac | it's basically the same thing that you were saying earlier about web pages | 00:07 |
| xentrac | when a web page is expressed sufficiently abstractly, it's easy to manipulate it to appear as, for example, white text on a dark gray background | 00:07 |
| xentrac | but when it's expressed with inline images replacing some of the text, you lose that manipulability | 00:08 |
| xentrac | similarly when you express a relationship between some variables with an equation, instead of an algorithm to compute one of them from the others, you retain the ability to solve for any of the variables (with more or less difficulty: as you point out, quintics and above don't have closed-form equational solutions, but even the general closed-form solution for quartics is extremely fucking hairy) | 00:09 |
| xentrac | so you should use the less expressive, but more manipulable, representation when you can | 00:10 |
| fenn | why is "code" necessarily an algorithm? | 00:10 |
| xentrac | well, I've been talking about code in Turing-complete languages as the alternative to equations | 00:11 |
| fenn | parameters are undefined until a function is called | 00:11 |
| xentrac | as to whether it's easier to read Q = 2 \pi \sqrt{V (\frac{L'} {S})^3} or | 00:12 |
| xentrac | ______ | 00:12 |
| xentrac | / L | 00:12 |
| xentrac | Q = 2π \/ V (-)³ | 00:12 |
| xentrac | S | 00:12 |
| fenn | oh, of course it's harder to read when it's full of escape codes | 00:12 |
| xentrac | I suspect that it's largely a matter of familiarity | 00:12 |
| xentrac | escape codes? | 00:13 |
| xentrac | you can name your functions without backslashes and use parens instead of {} if you like, I don't think it makes much difference | 00:13 |
| fenn | but i would write Q = 2 * pi * sqrt(V * L_prime/S)^3 | 00:13 |
| xentrac | I was addressing your earlier point about | 00:13 |
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| xentrac | "hieroglyphics" | 00:14 |
| fenn | it still leaves unresolved what is pi and what is sqrt and how is L related to L_prime | 00:15 |
| fenn | but at least i can type it into an irc channel | 00:15 |
| fenn | or a python console | 00:15 |
| xentrac | right | 00:15 |
| fenn | oh i missed a ) | 00:16 |
| fenn | too busy trying to decipher the \frac notation | 00:16 |
| fenn | why does tex mix () and {} | 00:17 |
| xentrac | () get typeset | 00:17 |
| xentrac | {} is just for grouping | 00:17 |
| fenn | ... and now i'm thinking (there's a difference?) | 00:17 |
| fenn | because that's a typesetting markup, not code | 00:18 |
| xentrac | yes | 00:18 |
| xentrac | hmm, I should really leave the office | 00:19 |
| fenn | i'd also argue that equations are a historical artifact of typesetting that has nothing to do with whether it's analytical form or algorithm | 00:19 |
| fenn | move into your desk, save the planet! | 00:19 |
| xmj | xentrac: i find latex-ish equations easy to read | 00:19 |
| xentrac | I really think the serialization format is one of the less important things about them | 00:24 |
| fenn | but it's the one that causes the most grief | 00:24 |
| xentrac | the serialization of equations is a historical artifact of writing by hand instead of keyboard | 00:24 |
| xentrac | I have a similar notation for algorithms when I write them on paper | 00:25 |
| xentrac | x | y for "while (x) y" | 00:25 |
| xentrac | xs | f(x) for "for x in xs: f(x)" | 00:25 |
| xentrac | x | | 00:26 |
| xentrac | a | b for "if (a) b; else c;" | 00:27 |
| xentrac | | | 00:27 |
| xentrac | oops | 00:27 |
| xentrac | left out the c | 00:27 |
| xentrac | f x for "def f(x):" | 00:28 |
| fenn | isnt x | y the same as a | b | 00:29 |
| xentrac | k x y for "class k: def __init__(self, x, y): self.x = x; self.y = y" | 00:29 |
| xentrac | --------- | 00:29 |
| xentrac | no, the a | b one has a horizontal line underneath it | 00:29 |
| fenn | heh "k x y" is some semantic sugar i wouldn't mind | 00:30 |
| xentrac | and I use funky hieroglyphs and Greek letters for variables instead of entire words that I have to write out each time | 00:30 |
| xentrac | yeah, a double underline is a lot easier to write in my notebook than the word "class" | 00:30 |
| fenn | it's nice to be able to specify default values tho | 00:30 |
| fenn | so i write a lot of stuff in my log books, but i use long form because i know i'm going to type it in eventually | 00:32 |
| fenn | i could use some shorthand but i know i'll forget what it means | 00:32 |
| xentrac | hmm I think I was using @x for self.x at some point | 00:32 |
| xentrac | I should go back and formalize that notation | 00:32 |
| fenn | @ is self.a :P | 00:32 |
| xentrac | yeah, but I mean | 00:33 |
| xentrac | k @x @y (doubleunderline) | 00:33 |
| xentrac | by putting self.x (@x) in the parameter list itself, I'm implicitly assigning to self.x | 00:33 |
| xentrac | but maybe that's not really necessary | 00:34 |
| fenn | if you're using both x and self.x you're probably doing something wrong | 00:34 |
| xentrac | yeah | 00:34 |
| xentrac | I just mean, is it worthwhile being explicit about storing variables for later use? | 00:35 |
| fenn | "Be liberal in what you require but conservative in what you do" | 00:35 |
| fenn | this is more of what i was going for | 00:35 |
| xentrac | because it's kind of an important semantic clue to intent | 00:35 |
| xentrac | okay now I really am going to go home | 00:36 |
| xentrac | I was really going to go to bed before 5 AM | 00:36 |
| xentrac | fail | 00:36 |
| fenn | g'night, and good luck | 00:36 |
| xentrac | you too | 00:36 |
| fenn | huh, weird. "In her talk The Science of Insecurity, Meredith Patterson makes the point that the principle of least power is important for security of interfaces which may be exposed to attack." | 00:45 |
| fenn | i always thought "principle of least power" in a security context meant you rescind privileges not required for the task at hand, guess it's more abstract than that | 00:46 |
| fenn | .title http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kEfedtQVOY | 00:47 |
| yoleaux | 28c3: The Science of Insecurity | 00:47 |
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| fenn | wow look at that moon | 00:51 |
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| archels | ``especially since this year seems to be the "Deep Learning is Eating Everyone's Lunch" year'' | 02:09 |
| archels | -- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7638163 | 02:09 |
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| fenn | i wrote some notes about steamrollering the web: http://fennetic.net/irc/ontological_assimilator | 03:11 |
| ebowden | What do you mean by steamrollering? | 03:13 |
| fenn | see the logs | 03:14 |
| archels | "ontological warfare" haha wat | 03:14 |
| ebowden | Ah,ok. | 03:16 |
| ebowden | Ah, ok. | 03:16 |
| ebowden | Got it from the notes you linked anyway. | 03:16 |
| archels | fenn: it seems more like a presentational layer, can you really call it an ontology? | 03:17 |
| fenn | unfortunately i've mixed in some presentation layer stuff in order to explain what you do with the data you've collected | 03:18 |
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| archels | it would be great if you could get this thing to parse PDFs | 03:20 |
| fenn | yes that is intended | 03:20 |
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| fenn | i want to parse machinery's handbook and distill all those godawful scanned tables down into a few sets of preferred numbers and some formulae | 03:21 |
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| fenn | or CRC handbook of chemistry for an equivalent example | 03:22 |
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| fenn | i'm worried that there will be a lot of manual "elvi" creation | 03:25 |
| fenn | surely there is some teach by example software out there, anyway, time for bed | 03:25 |
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| archels | what's elvi? | 03:28 |
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| ebowden | Archels, kanzure, fenn, ParahSailin, a really cool flavonoid, and a cooler still derivative: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3150605/pdf/nihms-253216.pdf, http://dc.etsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1027&context=honors, http://www.pnas.org/content/107/6/2687.full.pdf, http://www.spandidos-publications.com/or/28/1/353/download;jsessionid=92BA2F8CEE487289B404AB1AA9EDA422 | 03:36 |
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| archels | "nobody will watch your TED talk if your sense of optimism is grounded in reality" | 03:46 |
| ebowden | LOL | 03:47 |
| ebowden | Where's that from? | 03:47 |
| archels | https://www.usenix.org/system/files/1403_02-08_mickens.pdf | 03:53 |
| ebowden | Thanks. | 03:55 |
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| ebowden | Ok, this is hilarious, loving it so far. | 03:58 |
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| ebowden | paperbot: http://pubs.rsc.org/en/Content/ArticleLanding/2012/CP/c2cp42174g#!divAbstract | 05:50 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Cross-talk%20between%20amino%20acid%20residues%20and%20flavonoid%20derivatives%3A%20insights%20into%20their%20chemical%20recognition.pdf | 05:51 |
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| kanzure | https://inventropy.us/blog/is-killing-patents-just-plain-fun/ | 05:54 |
| kanzure | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7638099 | 05:54 |
| kanzure | "There is no incentive for them to stop granting bad patents." | 05:54 |
| kanzure | "The author thinks he is "helping" the USPTO - to stop bad patents. But he is doing nothing of the sort. The USPTO are part of the problem. Do you really think that you can strike down a bad patent by simply sending some links for prior art to the USPTO ? Someone who applies for a patent must pay a fee to have it examined by an expert. I'm pretty sure that they're going to have to spend some time re-examining the patent and the new material ... | 05:55 |
| kanzure | ... to decide if it's relevant or not. I don't think that's going to be free." | 05:55 |
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| ebowden | "Am I evil, or is killing patents just plain fun?" | 05:56 |
| ebowden | For a second, I thought it said: | 05:57 |
| ebowden | "Am I evil, or is killing patients just plain fun?" | 05:57 |
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| xmj | metoo | 06:38 |
| xmj | i read that comment before / while drinking the first cup of coffee | 06:38 |
| ebowden | Ah. | 06:40 |
| ebowden | Oh, xmj, I'm not sure if I've already asked you this, but what things do you do? :D | 06:43 |
| xmj | elaborate...? | 06:49 |
| ebowden | Oh, back. | 06:49 |
| ebowden | Well, I don't do much of anything, accepting pretending to know things about neuroactive phytochemicals, so I mostly lurk here. | 06:51 |
| xmj | how do you earn your living? | 06:51 |
| ebowden | *except | 06:51 |
| ebowden | I'm still in my last year of high school. | 06:51 |
| cluckj | who is your daddy and what does he do? | 06:51 |
| xmj | Ah! | 06:51 |
| ebowden | LOL | 06:52 |
| ebowden | My mother is the executive officer of the Tasmanian Acquired Brain Injury Service, and my father is a 72 year old impressionist artist, Jonathan Ambrose Bowden, who mainly works with pastels. | 06:53 |
| xmj | interesting | 06:54 |
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| cluckj | lol | 06:54 |
| xmj | ebowden: seriously: out of highschool, no one gives a damn what your parents do | 06:54 |
| xmj | unless they're loaded. | 06:54 |
| ebowden | I know. | 06:54 |
| xmj | then for appearences sake | 06:54 |
| ebowden | And my dad certainly isn't. | 06:55 |
| ebowden | (My dad has been through too many divorces to be loaded.) | 06:55 |
| xmj | haha | 06:56 |
| xmj | Don't let yourself get divorce-raped - don't marry in the first place. | 06:57 |
| xmj | But that only as an aside. | 06:57 |
| ebowden | I don't plan on it, I assure you. | 06:57 |
| xmj | Marrying, or getting divorce-raped? | 06:57 |
| ebowden | Either, at this point. | 06:57 |
| ebowden | It's funny, my grandfather was a scientist among the first to see the applications of PTFE in bearings and coatings(He thought teflon pans were a horrid idea due to off-gassing), but my father hated science. | 07:02 |
| ebowden | *scientist, among | 07:02 |
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| cluckj | teflon pans are dope as hell | 07:03 |
| ebowden | They are. | 07:04 |
| ebowden | Just dangerous. | 07:04 |
| ebowden | (Especially to idiots.) | 07:05 |
| ebowden | The PTFE off-gasses under conditions commonly encountered in normal use of a pan in many households. | 07:07 |
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| xmj | ebowden: i earn my living as bytepusher | 07:11 |
| xmj | for fun i hack on UNIX | 07:11 |
| ebowden | Ah, ok. | 07:11 |
| xmj | ParahSailin: mentioned it had nice decent smart people in here | 07:11 |
| xmj | not convinced about nice nor decent | 07:11 |
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| ebowden | Hack, as in, use it for something other than it's original purpose? | 07:12 |
| ebowden | LOL | 07:12 |
| cluckj | pick 3 out of 4 | 07:12 |
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| ebowden | But yeah cluckj, he knew from experience that a lot of people don't follow important safety instructions, especially in things where the dangers have not been highlighted by some deaths and cases of illness. | 07:14 |
| cluckj | yeah | 07:14 |
| cluckj | lots of birds died from teflon pans that got too hot and gassed | 07:14 |
| xmj | ebowden: these days i'm member of the freebsd development team so let's relativize the 'original purpose' a bit :D | 07:15 |
| ebowden | :D | 07:15 |
| eudoxia | i thought freebsd was pretty cool when i tried it | 07:15 |
| xmj | it is | 07:16 |
| ebowden | Cluckj, what? I haven't heard of bird deaths linked to that. | 07:16 |
| cluckj | oh | 07:16 |
| cluckj | pet birds are really sensitive to teflon off-gassing | 07:16 |
| xmj | meh | 07:17 |
| xmj | cluckj: You can't make any decent food in teflon pans anyway | 07:17 |
| ebowden | I do prefer iron. | 07:17 |
| xmj | cast! | 07:18 |
| ebowden | Yes. | 07:18 |
| ebowden | I do prefer cast iron. | 07:18 |
| cluckj | no way, I have a teflon crepe pan that is magic | 07:18 |
| xmj | what's magic about it? | 07:18 |
| cluckj | ...nothing sticks to it? | 07:18 |
| xmj | dude | 07:18 |
| xmj | nothing sticks to a well-used cast-iron pan either | 07:19 |
| cyberman | my teflon pot is so slick it slides off the burner | 07:19 |
| cluckj | lol | 07:19 |
| ebowden | LOL | 07:20 |
| cluckj | you can't use the cast iron for everything | 07:20 |
| ebowden | I wonder if they sell DLC coated pots. | 07:20 |
| ebowden | DLC is diamond like carbon. | 07:20 |
| ebowden | *diamond-like | 07:21 |
| cluckj | the problem with cast iron is that to get nothing to stick to it, you have to heat it up to the right temperature | 07:23 |
| cluckj | for delicate or thin things like crepes, that's too hot | 07:23 |
| ebowden | LOL: http://news-hound.us/a-tattoo-artists-revenge-on-his-cheating-girlfriend-poop-tattoo/ | 07:24 |
| ebowden | So, in other words, if you have it too hot, it all goes to, well, that girl's tattoo. | 07:26 |
| ebowden | Is that right? | 07:26 |
| cluckj | lol | 07:26 |
| cluckj | ya | 07:26 |
| cluckj | I don't really use teflon pans for much of anything else | 07:27 |
| ebowden | Also, that is the most hilarious getting-back-at-cheating-partner story I've ever heard. | 07:27 |
| ebowden | Ah, ok cluckj. | 07:28 |
| ebowden | It was a whole back tattoo as well. | 07:28 |
| ebowden | A big pile of poo with flies buzzing around it. | 07:29 |
| ebowden | *whole-back | 07:29 |
| cluckj | seems harsh | 07:29 |
| ebowden | It was with his oldest friend. | 07:30 |
| ebowden | And it was hilarious. | 07:30 |
| ebowden | Oh, one of the comments: | 07:33 |
| ebowden | "revenge is a dish best served steaming." | 07:33 |
| ebowden | :D | 07:33 |
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| kanzure | there should be a c2.com except for hardware things | 09:44 |
| kanzure | http://gowers.wordpress.com/2014/04/24/elsevier-journals-some-facts/ | 09:44 |
| kanzure | "Instead, they waited for things to settle down, and now, two years later, the main problems, bundling and exorbitant prices, continue unabated: in 2013, Elsevier’s profit margin was up to 39%. (The profit is a little over £800 million on a little over £2 billion.) As for the boycott, the number of signatories appears to have reached a plateau of about 14,500." | 09:44 |
| kanzure | http://tqft.net/mlp/wiki/The_Mathematics_Literature_Project "The Mathematics Literature Project intends to survey the state of the freely accessible mathematics literature. In particular, it will index freely accessible URLs for mathematics articles. These are legitimately hosted copies of the article (i.e. at publishers, the arXiv, institutional repositories, or authors' homepages), which are freely available in any browser, anywhere in the ... | 09:47 |
| kanzure | ... world." | 09:47 |
| kanzure | http://www.daniellesucher.com/2014/04/24/my-new-favorite-vim-tmux-bug/ | 09:55 |
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| entelechios | kanzure: tmux/vim sure can act funny in certain terminals | 12:02 |
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| kanzure | race conditions everywhere | 12:36 |
| ParahSailin | oh yeah, i think thats why i use screen | 12:37 |
| ParahSailin | its the cursor hopping around thing right? | 12:37 |
| kanzure | the article is describing a worse bug | 12:38 |
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| kanzure | http://www.bio-protocol.org/ seems to be another protocol site | 12:43 |
| kanzure | "single worm PCR" http://www.bio-protocol.org/wenzhang.aspx?id=60#.U1lpZFRDs-M | 12:43 |
| kanzure | "Mitochondrial Isolation and Purification from Mouse Spinal Cord" http://www.bio-protocol.org/wenzhang.aspx?id=961#.U1lpmlRDs-M | 12:44 |
| kanzure | well, it's not empty at least | 12:44 |
| kanzure | "Bio-protocol is efficient. Bio-protocol runs well on a very low budget. Our team is made up almost entirely of junior-level researchers, i.e. post-docs and junior faculty members. This has two benefits, 1) it keeps our costs low, and 2) junior-level researchers are very active at the bench and therefore, often the best equipped to evaluate protocol need and quality." | 12:45 |
| kanzure | hehehe post-docs are considered junior :) | 12:45 |
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| kanzure | some biology preprint server thing http://biorxiv.org/collection/ | 13:35 |
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| fenn | guyz how do i h4ck teh weefees | 14:08 |
| Viper168_ | with your butt | 14:10 |
| nmz787_i | fenn: i only know that WEP is easy to do | 14:25 |
| nmz787_i | fenn: i've tried WPA, but haven't had success (I may have stopping trying too early) | 14:26 |
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| nmz787_i | fenn: aircrack-ng | 14:26 |
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| kanzure | i've been meaning to use firesheep | 14:41 |
| kanzure | .title https://www.simonsfoundation.org/quanta/20140424-early-life-in-death-valley/ | 14:42 |
| yoleaux | Ancient Fossils Suggest Complex Life Evolved on Land | 14:42 |
| kanzure | i don't know what this is, but it has strange icon-style graphics http://brikis98.blogspot.com/2014/04/bitcoin-by-analogy.html | 14:44 |
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| kanzure | this person claims to work at sage and that "i am not a dinosaur" but who knows https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7642944 | 15:34 |
| kanzure | "Throwing this out there for anyone working on a startup in the academic journal space. I'm on the board of SAGE Publications, which is (depending on how you count), the 5th or so largest publisher in the space. See this diagram for where SAGE fits: http://www.oii.ox.ac.uk/vis/images/?src=4e3c02ab/journal_publishers.png " | 15:35 |
| kanzure | "If you’re doing a startup in this space and want to reach out, please contact me. I live in SF and would happily take you out for coffee or meet up for a beer. My contact details are on my HN profile. SAGE is a 100% family owned business. My grandmother is chairwoman, my dad and I are on the board. I'm a coder working in an unrelated startup for my day job, living in SF. We’re not dinosaurs trying to bleed the system dry until our ... | 15:35 |
| kanzure | ... business model collapses, but at the same time I wholeheartedly acknowledge the fundamentals of the journals business are antiquated and I believe they will radically change eventually. Academia is incredibly complicated and moves at a glacial pace. So if you’re interested in seeing the world of academic journals from the inside, please get in touch. I can get you in contact with anyone in the SAGE organization at every level." | 15:35 |
| kanzure | user is https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=dougmccune | 15:35 |
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| kanzure | someone stalking blackmarkets online https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/280585369/2014-04-24-blackmarkettable-draft.html | 15:55 |
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| kanzure | hmm i wonder how trustable this video is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBh2LxTW0s0 "I have had Deep Brain Stimulation Surgery for Parkinson's Disease, and this is what happens when I turn off my neurostimulator." | 16:00 |
| kanzure | oh that quote is from parijata. i wonder what she's been up to. | 16:00 |
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| kanzure | "More than 100,000 people around the world have undergone DBS since it was first approved, in the 1990s, for the treatment of movement disorders. Today, besides providing relief for people with Parkinson’s disease, dystonia (characterized by involuntary muscle contractions) and essential tremor (Haning’s problem), DBS has been shown to be effective against Tourette’s syndrome, with its characteristic tics, and obsessive-compulsive ... | 16:04 |
| kanzure | ... disorder. Add to that a wave of ongoing research into DBS’s promise as a treatment for post-traumatic stress disorder and other neuropsychiatric conditions, as well as early signs that it may improve memory in Alzheimer’s patients." | 16:04 |
| kanzure | "As co-directors of the UF Center for Movement Disorders and Neurorestoration, Foote and neurologist Michael Okun are at the forefront of the DBS field, refining operating techniques and establishing a rigorous standard of care that attracts patients from around the country and the world. Since teaming up at UF in 2002, Okun and Foote have done nearly 1,000 DBS procedures together and grown their two-man effort into an interdisciplinary ... | 16:05 |
| kanzure | ... program with more than 40 staffers, including eight neurologists, a psychiatrist, a neuropsychologist and physical, speech and occupational therapists." | 16:05 |
| kanzure | http://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/inside-science-amazing-new-surgery-called-deep-brain-stimulation-180951170/?all | 16:05 |
| kanzure | "In the past, Okun explains, the big debate in the field was whether DBS worked by inhibiting abnormal circuits or exciting other brain activity. Both sides ended up being right: The neurons closest to the implanted leads are inhibited by the electrical current, while axons leading away from the targeted cells are stimulated. In addition to these changes, says Okun, in the last few years we’ve learned that DBS also alters brain chemistry ... | 16:07 |
| kanzure | ... and blood flow, and even leads to the growth of new brain cells." | 16:07 |
| kanzure | hm, curious that there are numbers on how many patients have deep brain stimulation implants | 16:07 |
| kanzure | and also that they claim to have 1% of the market | 16:08 |
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| kanzure | paperbot: http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpls/abs_all.jsp?arnumber=6714610 | 16:17 |
| kanzure | "Three-Dimensional Transcranial Ultrasound Imaging of Microbubble Clouds Using a Sparse Hemispherical Array" | 16:17 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1109%2FTBME.2014.2300838 | 16:17 |
| kanzure | "Passive acoustic mapping could offer a means for spatially monitoring microbubble emissions that relate to bubble activity [from bubble-mediated focused ultrasound (FUS) interventions in the brain]. In this study, a hemispherical receiver array was integrated within an existing transcranial therapy array to create a device capable of both delivering therapy and monitoring the process via passive imaging of bubble clouds. A 128-element ... | 16:18 |
| kanzure | ... receiver array was constructed and characterized for varying bubble concentrations and source spacings." | 16:18 |
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| ParahSailin | http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/21/us/hawaii-plane-stowaway/ | 16:19 |
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| QuadIngi | ""I have had Deep Brain Stimulation Surgery for Parkinson's Disease, and this is what happens when I turn off my neurostimulator."" Oh Kanzure i saw that a while back, spoke to the guy | 16:20 |
| entelechios | lol that poor kid just wanted to go back to somalia of all places in the world | 16:20 |
| ParahSailin | hes got a good career as a sherpa ahead of him | 16:20 |
| kanzure | paperbot: http://scitation.aip.org/content/aapm/journal/medphys/40/8/10.1118/1.4812423 | 16:20 |
| kanzure | "Influence of the pressure field distribution in transcranial ultrasonic neurostimulation" | 16:20 |
| entelechios | paperbot works again? | 16:20 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Influence%20of%20the%20pressure%20field%20distribution%20in%20transcranial%20ultrasonic%20neurostimulation.txt | 16:20 |
| entelechios | i was using some russian website | 16:20 |
| kanzure | "The primary goal of this paper is to investigate transcranial ultrasonic neurostimulation at low frequency (320 kHz) on anesthetized rats for different acoustic pressures and estimate thein situ pressure field distribution and the corresponding motor threshold, if any." | 16:20 |
| QuadIngi | it's very borky to just put some power on it though :/ | 16:21 |
| QuadIngi | I look at current medical technology and a lot of it seems like cheap hacks | 16:21 |
| QuadIngi | inelegant | 16:21 |
| kanzure | "everal kinds of motor responses were observed: movements of the tail, the hind legs, the forelimbs, the eye, and even a single whisker were induced separately. Numerical simulations of an equivalent experiment with identical acoustic parameters showed that the acoustic field was spread over the whole rat brain with the presence of several secondary pressure peaks." | 16:22 |
| -!- nsh is now known as [off| | 16:22 | |
| -!- [off| is now known as [arff] | 16:24 | |
| kanzure | "Here, we gauged the ability of noninvasive FUS to causally modulate high-level cognitive behavior. Therefore, we examined how FUS might interfere with prefrontal activity in two awake macaque rhesus monkeys that had been trained to perform an antisaccade (AS) task. We show that ultrasound significantly modulated AS latencies." | 16:24 |
| kanzure | "Such effects proved to be dependent on FUS hemifield of stimulation (relative latency increases most for ipsilateral AS). These results are interpreted in terms of a modulation of saccade inhibition to the contralateral visual field due to the disruption of processing across the frontal eye fields. Our study demonstrates for the first time the feasibility of using FUS stimulation to causally modulate behavior in the awake nonhuman primate ... | 16:24 |
| kanzure | ... brain." | 16:24 |
| kanzure | was from http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982213012700 | 16:24 |
| -!- [arff] is now known as muslamba | 16:26 | |
| -!- muslamba is now known as nsh | 16:26 | |
| kanzure | ebowden will like "Drug delivery across the blood–brain barrier using focused ultrasound | 16:26 |
| kanzure | sigh javascript copypaste spam | 16:27 |
| ParahSailin | tynt? | 16:27 |
| kanzure | http://informahealthcare.com/templates/jsp/js/oncopy.js | 16:28 |
| kanzure | <!--[if IE 6]><link href="/templates/jsp/_style2/_ashley/ie6.css" rel="stylesheet" type="text/css"/><![endif]--> | 16:29 |
| ParahSailin | dang thats evil, it used to be that all the js copypaste spam was hosted on external domains that one could blackhole with hosts file | 16:30 |
| kanzure | grg.org is claiming their site is going down since they can't pay their bills | 16:32 |
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| streety | the design of that site is almost impressively dated | 17:05 |
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| kanzure | http://www.wired.com/2014/04/darkmarket/ | 17:12 |
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| fenn | is there something wrong with the way informahealthcare.com is implemented? | 17:26 |
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| kanzure | it inserts spam into your paste buffer | 17:31 |
| fenn | so, with the whole "user agent" model of the browser, why is it some sites are able to block right-click or whatever? | 17:33 |
| fenn | is that just an implementation flaw? | 17:34 |
| fenn | i can't think of any reason a site would legitimately need to know when i am copying text from it | 17:34 |
| kanzure | http://openopenssl.org/ | 17:36 |
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| kanzure | ugh i need a stimulopedia brain map thing | 17:41 |
| fenn | "The Libre: The Free of SSL" is a pretty awkward name | 17:41 |
| entelechios | it reminds me of 'MANOS: THE HANDS OF FATE' | 17:42 |
| fenn | LAVOS: THE DAY OF RECKONING | 17:42 |
| kanzure | http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/lib/libssl/src/ssl/ | 17:42 |
| kanzure | openbsd is still on cvs? really? | 17:42 |
| fenn | *facepalm* | 17:42 |
| fenn | well, it's "stable" | 17:42 |
| ParahSailin | openbsd still has no ssl web server? | 17:42 |
| entelechios | yeah they are | 17:43 |
| entelechios | you get patches down manually and everything | 17:43 |
| entelechios | it's fucking funny | 17:43 |
| kanzure | hold on let me connect my MUD client to get the patches | 17:43 |
| entelechios | i had to patch openbsd boxes for this whole thing and | 17:43 |
| entelechios | well | 17:43 |
| entelechios | it was a lot more time consuming than it needed to be | 17:43 |
| entelechios | oh yeah and they also keep the version of builtin apache before the new license | 17:43 |
| entelechios | so like | 17:43 |
| entelechios | 2002 vintage or some shit in the base install | 17:43 |
| entelechios | i think i heard tell of them switching to nginx but | 17:44 |
| entelechios | seriously | 17:44 |
| eudoxia | i think there are two openbsd sites and one has ssl | 17:44 |
| eudoxia | but they look exactly alike | 17:44 |
| entelechios | i still appreciate their approach | 17:45 |
| fenn | random image of the cvs server? http://www.openbsd.org/images/rack2009.jpg | 17:45 |
| entelechios | they test on crappy olden architectures because it helps them uncover bugs that they dont find by keeping it to a more limited amount of archs | 17:45 |
| kanzure | "Misuse of the FDA's humanitarian device exemption in deep brain stimulation for obsessive-compulsive disorder" | 17:46 |
| entelechios | thats all in theo de raadt's garage in calgary | 17:46 |
| entelechios | but | 17:46 |
| eudoxia | oh so that's where they test openbsd | 17:46 |
| kanzure | http://www.fda.gov/MedicalDevices/DeviceRegulationandGuidance/HowtoMarketYourDevice/PremarketSubmissions/HumanitarianDeviceExemption/ | 17:46 |
| entelechios | what gets me is that theo insists on living in calgary and then ran into a near budget shortfall | 17:46 |
| entelechios | i mean they did manage to scrape together but | 17:46 |
| entelechios | alberta power prices are fucking expensive as hell | 17:46 |
| fenn | is calgary expensive? | 17:46 |
| kanzure | "To obtain approval for an HUD, an humanitarian device exemption (HDE) application is submitted to FDA. An HDE is similar in both form and content to a premarket approval (PMA) application, but is exempt from the effectiveness requirements of a PMA. An HDE application is not required to contain the results of scientifically valid clinical investigations demonstrating that the device is effective for its intended purpose." | 17:46 |
| entelechios | everyones all brainwashed by oil out there | 17:46 |
| entelechios | and thats what the operating cost reportedly was partly | 17:47 |
| entelechios | ...electricity | 17:47 |
| entelechios | in stupid ass alberta | 17:47 |
| entelechios | he could move to vancouver and slash that bill so much | 17:47 |
| fenn | humanitarian device.. hmm. what is this exemption intended for? | 17:47 |
| fenn | guillotines? | 17:47 |
| entelechios | seriously like i'd be paying 1/5th of the price on my power bill in BC | 17:47 |
| kanzure | "An Humanitarian Use Device (HUD) is a device that is intended to benefit patients by treating or diagnosing a disease or condition that affects or is manifested in fewer than 4,000 individuals in the United States per year. A device manufacturer`s research and development costs could exceed its market returns for diseases or conditions affecting small patient populations." | 17:47 |
| kanzure | <4k users | 17:47 |
| fenn | well, duh | 17:48 |
| kanzure | can you just register a thousand different "humanitarian devices" and get 4 million users? | 17:48 |
| fenn | "this is for people with brain cancer and whose name begins with the letters 'ab'" | 17:49 |
| kanzure | ah, here's a list of current exemptions (?) http://www.fda.gov/MedicalDevices/ProductsandMedicalProcedures/DeviceApprovalsandClearances/HDEApprovals/ucm161827.htm | 17:49 |
| fenn | undetectable secret homeopathic brain cancer I mean | 17:49 |
| entelechios | okay, battery is drained. laters | 17:50 |
| fenn | kanzure: "The Argus® II Retinal Prosthesis System is intended for patients aged 25 years and older" haha sucker | 17:51 |
| fenn | no retina for you | 17:51 |
| kanzure | "Acticon™Neosphincter" "For the treatment of severe fecal incontinence in post-pubescent males and females who have failed, or are not candidates for, less invasive forms of restorative therapy." | 17:54 |
| fenn | how the hell does a deep brain stimulator get through with zero testing | 17:54 |
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| kanzure | more approvals: http://www.fda.gov/MedicalDevices/ProductsandMedicalProcedures/DeviceApprovalsandClearances/PMAApprovals/ucm392346.htm | 17:56 |
| kanzure | oh, these might not be qualified for the humanitarian exemption | 17:56 |
| kanzure | "Approval for an alternate welding process" wtf | 17:57 |
| kanzure | "Contract laboratory change." | 17:57 |
| kanzure | gah i regret even looking | 17:57 |
| fenn | yeah all this is just "we notified the FDA" | 17:57 |
| cpopell | met a guy who had a patent for a method of drawing collagen into ligaments for spinal repair tonight | 18:01 |
| fenn | what was the method? | 18:03 |
| cpopell | didn't come up, wasn't a science meetup but a business one, and other people were talking to him | 18:04 |
| fenn | so, how did you know he wasn't deluded or full of shit? | 18:05 |
| fenn | "trust me, i'm a patent attorney" | 18:05 |
| eudoxia | probably had the right nerd cred | 18:05 |
| kanzure | i'm sure his claim that he has a patent is correct | 18:05 |
| kanzure | but that itself can be sort of boring | 18:05 |
| fenn | it's easy to verify that, but not so easy to verify that the method actually works | 18:06 |
| Lemminkainen | you can patent a method with 0.1% efficacy | 18:06 |
| Lemminkainen | but it'll never mean shit for the clinic at that rate | 18:06 |
| fenn | do they even check if it works at all? why not 0% efficacy? | 18:06 |
| Lemminkainen | best case exit there is to sell the IP to someone who wants to sit on it | 18:06 |
| Lemminkainen | USPTO has no way of checking methods like that, it's all on claims and substantiated data | 18:07 |
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| cpopell | it sounded like he had gotten a grant to work on getting it through trials | 18:07 |
| cpopell | but discussion passed to other stuff | 18:07 |
| Lemminkainen | hahahaha grants for trials | 18:07 |
| kanzure | paperbot: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/324/5927/643.short | 18:07 |
| kanzure | .title | 18:07 |
| yoleaux | Burst Spiking of a Single Cortical Neuron Modifies Global Brain State | 18:07 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1126%2Fscience.1169957 | 18:07 |
| cpopell | Lemminkainen: yeh, his other work was more interesting | 18:07 |
| Lemminkainen | a Phase 1a for even a fatal orphan disease will set you back around $1.5M | 18:07 |
| fenn | kanzure: paperbot should be able to accept things that start with .title paperbot: | 18:08 |
| Lemminkainen | after that you can apply for Breakthrough status but that ain't guaranteed at all | 18:08 |
| fenn | .title paperbot: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/324/5927/643.short | 18:08 |
| yoleaux | fenn: Sorry, that command (.title) crashed. | 18:08 |
| kanzure | nice | 18:08 |
| fenn | you know what i mean | 18:08 |
| eudoxia | why not put "title" after the url and a space | 18:09 |
| fenn | actually i didnt expect yoleaux to crash | 18:09 |
| fenn | either way | 18:09 |
| Lemminkainen | paperbot http://www.nature.com/nbt/journal/v32/n4/full/nbt0414-307b.html | 18:09 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2Fnbt0414-307b | 18:09 |
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| fenn | or it could just automatically say the title as default behavior | 18:09 |
| fenn | i mean, what's the point of having it in an irc channel if i can't see what other people are reading | 18:10 |
| fenn | "oh, he's reading something in nature" is not very informative | 18:10 |
| Lemminkainen | I'm reading about camel dicks | 18:10 |
| fenn | .title http://www.nature.com/nbt/journal/v32/n4/full/nbt0414-307b.html | 18:10 |
| yoleaux | Around the world in a month | 18:10 |
| fenn | okay that sucks too | 18:11 |
| kanzure | "Targeted single-cell electroporation of mammalian neurons in vivo" http://www.ucl.ac.uk/cabi/PDF/2009_Judkewitz_et_al._Nature_Protocols.pdf | 18:11 |
| eudoxia | i spotted pmetzger in the wild https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kV63Mf5Qb2Q | 18:17 |
| eudoxia | what a small world we live in | 18:17 |
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| fenn | .title | 18:20 |
| yoleaux | Lisp Interface Library | 18:20 |
| dingo | lol | 18:20 |
| fenn | eudoxia: technically, you are "living in" a ghetto | 18:20 |
| fenn | eudoxia: https://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2012/04/24/functional-programming-is-a-ghetto/ | 18:20 |
| dingo | openbsd does aa very good job of using cvs, btw | 18:21 |
| dingo | they work off head, no branching | 18:21 |
| dingo | you can use -current, as its called, pretty reliably | 18:21 |
| dingo | you commit after testing | 18:21 |
| dingo | and they do 6month release cycles with tagging | 18:21 |
| dingo | its a very polished development lifecycle | 18:22 |
| dingo | git or cvs, it doesn't matter at that point | 18:22 |
| dingo | its the actual release cycle that matters | 18:22 |
| dingo | every 6 months on the dot | 18:22 |
| eudoxia | fenn: i know i shouldn't be surprised, but it's always fun when i run into someone on some other part of the internet | 18:22 |
| dingo | once a release is cut -- everybody checks in their experimental stuff for all developers to eat | 18:22 |
| fenn | dingo: how do you test changes before committing with no version control system? | 18:23 |
| eudoxia | i've also noticed a weird correlation between Common Lisp programmers and MNT fans. me, kirka, the author of CavityStuffer (MNT software written in CL), some guy who's working on a CL->LLVM compiler who was at some foresight.org panel | 18:23 |
| dingo | its a unix system... you make the new kernel and reboot it, or make the new binaries and install them | 18:23 |
| fenn | i have the image of someone squatting in a dirt floor workshop with no benches | 18:23 |
| dingo | if it works, you commit | 18:24 |
| dingo | you know they don't even use irc | 18:24 |
| dingo | they use icb | 18:24 |
| fenn | what's icb? | 18:24 |
| dingo | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Citizen's_Band | 18:24 |
| fenn | but the entire internet is the citizen's band | 18:25 |
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| dingo | everybody has to ssh or ssh tunnel to cvs.openbsd.org to connect to the icb server | 18:26 |
| dingo | so its actually quite a bit more secure than irc | 18:26 |
| fenn | most things are more secure than irc | 18:26 |
| dingo | where only 1/2 of us are using ssl, the other half leak the rest of our stuff in the clear | 18:26 |
| fenn | in fact, this channel is searchable on google | 18:26 |
| dingo | so i noticed | 18:26 |
| kanzure | maybe if i take down the logs, i'll stop running into myself | 18:27 |
| fenn | okay so why dont they just use ssh and talk (lol) | 18:27 |
| fenn | 'talk' the unix command | 18:28 |
| dingo | too many developers for talk, and ytalk is *way* better than talk | 18:28 |
| dingo | (allows more than 2 users, for example) | 18:28 |
| dingo | i grew up on ytalk, don't diss it | 18:28 |
| dingo | i once did a talk with the author of gimp | 18:28 |
| dingo | a blind guy | 18:29 |
| dingo | probobly 15 or so other folk | 18:29 |
| fenn | i grew up on, um, bzflag and circlemud | 18:29 |
| kanzure | bzflag? gah | 18:29 |
| fenn | actually arena and dogfight, but you've probably never heard of that | 18:29 |
| fenn | it was on SGI IRIX | 18:29 |
| kanzure | actually bzflag makes a lot of sense for you | 18:29 |
| dingo | well i grew up on renegade and teleguard, but i matured on the internet, with ytalk | 18:30 |
| fenn | i was on a weird mud developed by a unix sysadmin who liked to add stuff like tab complete, for loops, shell expansion, etc. | 18:30 |
| fenn | it's probably why i am the way i am today | 18:30 |
| eudoxia | my first chat client thing was MSN :X | 18:32 |
| fenn | isn't that a sorry excuse for a news channel? | 18:33 |
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| fenn | MSNBC | 18:33 |
| eudoxia | i always wondered if msnbc was microsoft-related | 18:34 |
| eudoxia | ah yes it is | 18:34 |
| eudoxia | that makes sense | 18:34 |
| fenn | it came out around the same time as MSN | 18:35 |
| kanzure | "Femtosecond optical transfection of individual mammalian cells" hmph | 18:35 |
| fenn | i'll never forgive them for killing hotmail | 18:36 |
| kanzure | http://photon.st-and.ac.uk/limits/files/2013_Gunn-Moore_Nat_Protoc_Antkowiak2013bm.pdf | 18:36 |
| fenn | that means the laser pulse lasts a femtosecond, not that they uptake the data in one femtosecond | 18:36 |
| kanzure | hrm. okay. also, i would probably be content with electroporation and ultrasound transfection. | 18:37 |
| fenn | the yields are pretty high. you could use it to selectively add DNA to whatever tissue you like | 18:37 |
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| kanzure | i wonder if the reason why we don't have an elaborate map of "we stimulated these neurons in the brain here" <-> "we got these results" is because nobody knows which tests to put the rats/monkeys/people through | 18:38 |
| fenn | yeah "these results" is highly subjective | 18:38 |
| kanzure | also, maybe 1 mm^2 is not enough for doing selective memory elicitation in humans | 18:39 |
| fenn | no, it is not | 18:39 |
| fenn | not if you want more than the 100 or so different memories available from that spot | 18:40 |
| kanzure | that's fine if it's the same 100 memories | 18:40 |
| fenn | if you want to trigger the feeling of a ham sandwich, it works great | 18:40 |
| kanzure | although, i'm not sure i care about memory elicitation itself | 18:40 |
| fenn | yes you do | 18:40 |
| kanzure | oh | 18:41 |
| fenn | you're welcome :P | 18:41 |
| fenn | (irc mediated memory elicitation) | 18:41 |
| fenn | "the memory is the message" | 18:41 |
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| kanzure | selection of targets for things to attempt to stimulate is not an obvious task | 18:44 |
| kanzure | you can't just stimulate and get "improved math gland function" since there's no math gland | 18:45 |
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| fenn | i agree we need more objective cognitive performance tests, is that what you are saying? | 18:45 |
| kanzure | no | 18:46 |
| kanzure | if you ask your stereotypical transhumanist what they would want to try to stimulate, they would say "my ability to solve word problems faster" | 18:46 |
| fenn | more of objective performance tests (not more-objective tests, they're either objective enough or not objective at all) | 18:46 |
| kanzure | but their answer- whatever it is- in most situations iwll not be directly controlled by a specific region of the brain | 18:46 |
| fenn | of course not | 18:47 |
| fenn | stimulating neurons is like sticking a wire into a computer and hoping something interesting happens | 18:47 |
| kanzure | things that i am certain could be stimulated: memory elicitation (at minimum, generic playback of random crap), auditory input, visual input, motor cortex output, arousal, somatosensory crap, dyslexia (i mean, reading/comprehension can probably be disrupted) | 18:48 |
| fenn | sure | 18:49 |
| pasky | mm, a ham sandwich | 18:49 |
| fenn | oops :P | 18:49 |
| kanzure | i suppose that might be enough to work with | 18:49 |
| fenn | also motor cortex input should be fun | 18:50 |
| kanzure | that's been working in rats (or mice? sigh) | 18:50 |
| fenn | no i mean, "you are now moving your arm" | 18:51 |
| fenn | and then you look over and nothing is happening | 18:51 |
| fenn | except it would probably be related to a robot that is moving | 18:51 |
| fenn | so you feel like you're moving but you're not, the robot is moving | 18:52 |
| kanzure | things that would be nice but don't have immediately obvious targets to stimulate: mathematical ability, working memory 'size', visualization memory fidelity/size, language acquisition/uptake timeliness, attention, uh.. what else. | 18:52 |
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| kanzure | 'mathematical ability' is one of those wonky things | 18:52 |
| fenn | isnt "mathematical ability" and "word recall" the sort of thing tDCS is supposed to modulate? | 18:52 |
| fenn | i forget what has been claimed for tDCS | 18:53 |
| fenn | it definitely helped with new task learning rate | 18:53 |
| fenn | anyway you've got yourself a nice little combinatorial explosion | 18:54 |
| fenn | types of stimulation, stimulation parameters, stimulation locations, types of tests, parameters of tests, representation schema | 18:54 |
| fenn | by the time you're done, the brain is probably fried, nullifying your results | 18:55 |
| fenn | so the only way is to get truckloads of fresh warm brains, and igor is held up at the border by customs | 18:56 |
| kanzure | you can rule out certian regions of the brain as uninteresting | 18:56 |
| fenn | O RLY | 18:57 |
| fenn | they said the same thing about DNA | 18:57 |
| kanzure | if it was removed through surgery and other interesting things were still happening (without time for learning or rewiring) then it is probably not relevant to whatever you're looking for | 18:57 |
| fenn | sure bisecting works for deterining function/structure relationships, but it doesn't mean the other half is "uninteresting" | 18:58 |
| fenn | determining* | 18:58 |
| kanzure | otherwise how would you explain our knowledge of things like the auditory cortex | 18:58 |
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| kanzure | if you're looking for a way to stimulate audio input, and you know about the auditory cortex, why would you look in other places | 18:59 |
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| Lemminkainen | paperbot http://www.genomeweb.com/sequencing/sequencing-blood-and-brain-samples-supercentenarian-unveils-background-somatic-m | 19:15 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/257706dd3df7c9452c7ecdf6273824d1.txt | 19:15 |
| Lemminkainen | damn | 19:16 |
| Lemminkainen | nmz787_i you available to send up a copy? my entire team is down the nerd foxhole on debating this and we need more info | 19:16 |
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| fenn | heh grg.org the oldest living site on the internet | 19:22 |
| fenn | "made with SimpleText" | 19:24 |
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| ParahSailin | hm the focus fusion people are gonna do a kickstarter | 19:27 |
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| kanzure | this guy is fun: http://scholar.google.com/citations?sortby=pubdate&hl=en&user=s7gOlh8AAAAJ&pagesize=100&view_op=list_works | 19:40 |
| kanzure | "Working memory capacity predicts dopamine synthesis capacity in the human striatum" | 19:41 |
| kanzure | "Impulsive personality predicts dopamine-dependent changes in frontostriatal activity during component processes of working memory" | 19:43 |
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| kanzure | "An FMRI study of working memory on and off ritalin in adolescents with ADHD" neat | 19:47 |
| juri_ | nice. | 19:49 |
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| kanzure | hrm, methlyphenidate has been shown to enhance working memory http://www.adders.org/camb%20research.pdf (i thought the literature just said "linked" and not enhanced) | 20:06 |
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| kanzure | paperbot: http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v10/n3/abs/nn1846.html | 20:11 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2Fnn1846 | 20:11 |
| ebowden | paperbot: http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/scd.2009.0261 | 20:26 |
| paperbot | RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded in cmp (file "/usr/lib/python2.7/_weakrefset.py", line 73, in __contains__) | 20:28 |
| ebowden | Noooooo! | 20:31 |
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| kanzure | this is a cool one, | 20:31 |
| -!- everyone is now known as Adifex|pub | 20:31 | |
| kanzure | "Alpha2A-adrenoceptors strengthen working memory networks by inhibiting cAMP-HCN channel signaling in prefrontal cortex" http://jackknife.med.yale.edu/mlab/pdfs/wang2007.pdf | 20:31 |
| ebowden | Ah, yes, guanfacine. | 20:32 |
| xentrac | fenn: you've confused the Principle of Least Power with the Principle of Least Authority [or Privilege] | 20:32 |
| fenn | oh silly me :P | 20:32 |
| fenn | Power, Privilege, completely separate concepts | 20:32 |
| kanzure | hmm "Facilitation and restoration of cognitive function in primate prefrontal cortex by a neuroprosthesis that utilizes minicolumn-specific neural firing" | 20:34 |
| xentrac | yeah, I think Tim maybe named the principle a bit wrong | 20:36 |
| xentrac | but the W3C's later renaming of it was even worse | 20:36 |
| ebowden | paperbot: http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/pdf/10.1089/scd.2009.0261 | 20:41 |
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| fenn | xentrac: what did they rename it to? | 20:44 |
| kanzure | principle of xml | 20:44 |
| fenn | principle of unreadable tags? | 20:44 |
| dingo | XML XML XMLXMXLMxlmxlmxlmxlmxlmxlmlmx YES | 20:45 |
| dingo | <3 | 20:45 |
| dingo | employs thousands globally | 20:45 |
| fenn | jobs jobs jobs jobs developers developers developers developers developers developers | 20:45 |
| xentrac | I don't even remember | 20:46 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/489cc733fdb25caeab637928a9c1024.txt | 20:47 |
| ebowden | paperbot: file: http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/pdf/10.1089/scd.2009.0261 | 20:48 |
| ebowden | paperbot: file:http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/pdf/10.1089/scd.2009.0261 | 20:48 |
| fenn | "principle of least complexity" would be better | 20:48 |
| xmj | good morning | 20:49 |
| fenn | but then you have to fight people's preconceived notions of complexity | 20:49 |
| kanzure | "Frontal activations associated with accessing and evaluating information in working memory: an fMRI study.pdf" http://memlab0.eng.yale.edu/PDFs/2003_Zhang_Leung_Johnson_NeuroImage.pdf | 20:50 |
| fenn | vanuatu eh, xmj you should talk to juyun kim (no not really) | 20:50 |
| kanzure | what | 20:51 |
| kanzure | did he fucking sneak in again | 20:51 |
| fenn | unfortunately i forgot which nick he was using when i talked with him about his "contacts" in vanuatu | 20:51 |
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| fenn | this was a couple years ago | 20:52 |
| kanzure | he came back a few times | 20:52 |
| kanzure | but eventually i smelled his scent | 20:52 |
| fenn | the scent of the wild honeybadger | 20:52 |
| * fenn hisses ferociously | 20:52 | |
| fenn | his resume looks so boring | 20:53 |
| xmj | fenn: whothatguy | 20:53 |
| fenn | just some scam artist | 20:53 |
| fenn | wanted to build a hackerspace in vanuatu | 20:54 |
| xmj | meh | 20:54 |
| xmj | i hope by the time i get there they have fast-enough internet | 20:54 |
| fenn | how fast is fast-enough? | 20:54 |
| kanzure | fenn: http://gnusha.org/logs/2014-01-30.log | 20:54 |
| fenn | IRC over shortwave radio! | 20:54 |
| xmj | fenn: 10mbit/s is a start | 20:54 |
| fenn | 100 baud is a start | 20:55 |
| kanzure | fenn: http://pastebin.com/1w1rbY92 | 20:55 |
| xmj | fenn: wanna see you load jquery-rich websites over 100baud | 20:55 |
| fenn | that's why i'm building THE ASSIMILATOR | 20:55 |
| kanzure | fenn: and basically i only know one person that has this sort of pathology | 20:55 |
| fenn | "jquery-rich" what does that even mean | 20:55 |
| fenn | BLOAT | 20:55 |
| fenn | you could use an already-existing bloat-reduction proxy server i guess | 20:56 |
| fenn | kanzure: the endless information updates with no prompting is what gives it away | 20:57 |
| kanzure | yes, but also other things like, he gave his mom's body to cryonics institute | 20:57 |
| kanzure | and the mention of xrumer | 20:58 |
| fenn | why would he say stuff like that if he's trying to hide his identity? | 20:58 |
| kanzure | because he's a moron? | 20:58 |
| fenn | aw, gradstudentbot | 20:59 |
| * fenn weeps a single virtual tear | 20:59 | |
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| fenn | "if only i could just work at home or something | 21:01 |
| fenn | ^^ not a very talented spammer i guess | 21:01 |
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| fenn | you're ALIVE!!! | 21:01 |
| fenn | .botsnack | 21:01 |
| yoleaux | :D | 21:01 |
| fenn | not you | 21:01 |
| kanzure | gradstudentbot: how goes the paper? | 21:01 |
| gradstudentbot | I saw that paper when it came out. | 21:01 |
| fenn | hey what about automating mechanical turk | 21:04 |
| fenn | write AI that does the task :P | 21:04 |
| kanzure | why are you bringing up mturk? | 21:05 |
| fenn | everybody wins | 21:05 |
| fenn | reading that log you linked with dantespeaks, "Lemminkainen> avoid Mech Turk unless you want to make average $4/hr | 21:05 |
| kanzure | why are you reading that log, heh | 21:05 |
| kanzure | just irc drama really | 21:06 |
| fenn | why do anything | 21:06 |
| kanzure | because i told you to? | 21:06 |
| fenn | sure | 21:06 |
| fenn | i've been infected with the freedom virus | 21:06 |
| superkuh | http://wondermark.com/1k19/ | 21:07 |
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| Lemminkainen | I did what now? | 21:08 |
| Lemminkainen | I can't be held accountable to things I said months ago | 21:08 |
| gradstudentbot | I just finished my pset two days early. | 21:08 |
| fenn | Lemminkainen: what subjective effect does DHEA have? i tried it and it just made me extremely tired | 21:11 |
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| Lemminkainen | I've only ever consumed DHEA after a destroying workout and then I'm generally mixing it with a lot of food and cartoons so I can't tell you for sure | 21:12 |
| kanzure | "Neural activity in the hippocampus predicts individual visual short‐term memory capacity" | 21:15 |
| kanzure | well that's problematic. | 21:15 |
| fenn | it's textbook level knowledge | 21:15 |
| fenn | why is it problematic? | 21:15 |
| kanzure | that's not textbook level knowledge | 21:16 |
| kanzure | hippocampus is often implicated in long-term memory, but not often short-term visual memory capacity (note the word isn't 'storage' or 'retrieval') | 21:17 |
| Lemminkainen | I could see the hippocampus buffering signals from the visual cortex | 21:17 |
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| fenn | from the beginning of the wikipedia article on hippocampus: "The hippocampus ... plays important roles in the consolidation of information from short-term memory to long-term memory and spatial navigation." | 21:18 |
| kanzure | if it is a correlate for prediction, and not the causal source, then is that still "playing a role" | 21:19 |
| fenn | i have no idea what "correlate for prediction" means | 21:19 |
| kanzure | the study was about prediction | 21:20 |
| kanzure | using one variable to predict another | 21:20 |
| fenn | it sounds like the same thing | 21:20 |
| fenn | "plays a role" vs "activity predicts" | 21:21 |
| Lemminkainen | you want to link the study? | 21:21 |
| kanzure | not really | 21:21 |
| fenn | let's continue the hippocampus-swinging contest instead | 21:21 |
| fenn | WHO DARES CHALLENGE MY SHORT TERM MEMORY | 21:22 |
| kanzure | i forget | 21:23 |
| fenn | man, they should just start over and rename everything in the brain | 21:23 |
| fenn | "seahorse"? "boobies"? | 21:23 |
| fenn | i can't believe we put up with this shit | 21:24 |
| kanzure | well, what would be a better naming, identification, location scheme? | 21:24 |
| fenn | something better than "the thing stuck to the other thing next to the thingy" | 21:25 |
| kanzure | genotyping identification of individual neuron types seems to be doing pretty well | 21:25 |
| kanzure | pyramidal neurons and others are identifiable based on shape and mRNA expression profile crap | 21:26 |
| fenn | sure there's a glut of data | 21:26 |
| fenn | we have enough detail about the function of different regions now to be able to make up meaningful names | 21:26 |
| kanzure | it's too bad that neural tube developmental "go in this direction" data is gone once the neuron is mature | 21:26 |
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| fenn | so instead of "seahorse thingy (in greek)" it could be "memory consolidator" | 21:28 |
| fenn | people almost always prefer the version they were first introduced to, so anyone who knows enough about the functions of everything to come up with a system wouldn't have any motivation to do so | 21:29 |
| fenn | a naming system* | 21:29 |
| fenn | there are an awful lot of genes named "scooby doo" and the like, i hope that shit gets fixed eventually | 21:30 |
| Lemminkainen | I actually have no problem with that | 21:31 |
| kanzure | yes and "SCX14" is such a better gene name? | 21:31 |
| Lemminkainen | Tiddlywinks and decapentaplegic | 21:31 |
| fenn | it's fine as a placeholder when you have no idea what it does | 21:31 |
| fenn | not so good when you have to inform someone they're dying because of a scooby doo mutation | 21:32 |
| Lemminkainen | Histone-deacetylase-that-also-works-in-Golgi-but-not-in-mitochondria | 21:32 |
| Lemminkainen | yep, that's awesome | 21:32 |
| Lemminkainen | such a better system | 21:32 |
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| fenn | there seems to be a trend away from trying to make meaningful abbreviations | 21:33 |
| kanzure | there's a taxonomy of proteins and enzymes, maybe it should be reorganized into some sort of human-manipulatable grammar | 21:34 |
| fenn | like in the 1920's "communism international" became "ComIntern" | 21:34 |
| kanzure | oh right, IUPAC naming sort of did that | 21:34 |
| fenn | "signals intelligence" becomes "SIGINT" | 21:34 |
| Lemminkainen | Hisdeacgolnotimit | 21:35 |
| fenn | Histone-deacetylase-that-also-works-in-Golgi-but-not-in-mitochondria becomes "scooby doo"? | 21:35 |
| Lemminkainen | SIRT7, actually | 21:35 |
| fenn | meh at least it's related to something | 21:35 |
| fenn | no idea what SIRT actually stands for | 21:36 |
| Lemminkainen | sirtuin | 21:36 |
| fenn | SIR2 -> sirtuin -> SIRT? that's bogus | 21:37 |
| Lemminkainen | I didn't name it | 21:37 |
| Lemminkainen | I did, however, name a line of transgenic mice "butt exploder" | 21:37 |
| Lemminkainen | because they lacked IL-10 and would sometimes develop spontaneous rectal prolapse | 21:37 |
| gradstudentbot | I am kind of curious what he has a Ph.D. in, I can't really find this anywhere, it could be underwater basket weaving for all I know. | 21:38 |
| fenn | The name Sir2 comes from the yeast gene 'silent mating-type information regulation 2' the gene responsible for cellular regulation in yeast. | 21:38 |
| gradstudentbot | Whatever, I'm really dating school anyway. | 21:38 |
| fenn | Lemminkainen: see, that's the kind of descriptive naming we need more of in science | 21:39 |
| fenn | butt exploder, not sir2 | 21:39 |
| fenn | shouldn't it be SMIR2? | 21:39 |
| fenn | gah, biologists | 21:40 |
| yashgaroth | "what do the test results say, doctor?" "it appears you have a mutation in the, uh, butt exploder gene" | 21:40 |
| kanzure | thankfully neosphincter(R) has been approved for "humanitarian use" | 21:41 |
| fenn | ok fine, "rectus explodicus" | 21:41 |
| yashgaroth | sphinctumab | 21:41 |
| Lemminkainen | the Neosphincter is a prosthetic mechanic device that vibrates in response to flexion of the pubococcyxal muscles | 21:41 |
| Lemminkainen | dammit yashgaroth not the mabs | 21:42 |
| Lemminkainen | I have seen WAY too many biotech startups get founded on the basis of ONE promising monoclonal antibody | 21:42 |
| fenn | what's the difference between a mab and a mib | 21:42 |
| fenn | or a nib | 21:42 |
| fenn | or a ulib | 21:42 |
| yashgaroth | I've seen startups founded on the idea of a basis of one promising mab | 21:42 |
| kanzure | that neosphincter description sounds like the start to a porn scene | 21:42 |
| kanzure | prosthetic mechanic device that vibrates, we all know where this is going | 21:43 |
| fenn | it's no coincidence the medical device startup scene is in the bay area | 21:43 |
| Lemminkainen | it's true that we don't have enough cyborg porn | 21:43 |
| fenn | yeah there's Tetsuo the iron man, what else | 21:44 |
| gradstudentbot | I don't know, I think that's kind of problematic. | 21:44 |
| Lemminkainen | I want to see something serious with hydraulics and lasers | 21:44 |
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| fenn | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uROMTzJsfOI | 21:46 |
| yoleaux | Tetsuo: The Iron Man trailer | 21:46 |
| jrayhawk | paperbot: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/333/6040/301.full.pdf | 21:47 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/bc5140bb89fbeebcbdd29cfa9ce0f314.pdf | 21:48 |
| kanzure | what's peroglide | 21:50 |
| fenn | Pergolide (trade name Permax) is an ergoline -based dopamine receptor agonist used in some countries for the treatment of Parkinson's disease | 21:50 |
| jrayhawk | I'll show you my rod knocker if you show me your bushing pusher. | 21:51 |
| kanzure | that's a lousy deal | 21:51 |
| jrayhawk | especially since i do not have a rod knocker | 21:51 |
| Lemminkainen | you could make one out of a stale baguette | 21:52 |
| jrayhawk | but gliadin makes baby jesus cry | 21:53 |
| jrayhawk | sourdough baguette. that's the solution. | 21:53 |
| Lemminkainen | remember to laminate it first | 21:53 |
| jrayhawk | but estrogenic activity makes baby jesus girly | 21:54 |
| fenn | pea protein and MCT oil from now on | 21:54 |
| fenn | jrayhawk: what's a good anisotropic food | 21:55 |
| fenn | preferably shelf stable and relatively solid under most conditions | 21:56 |
| ebowden | Oh by the way, did anyone here know about the role of the hippocampus in imagination? | 21:56 |
| fenn | imagination, what's that? | 21:56 |
| ebowden | (Those without one cannot create a scene, in their head.) | 21:56 |
| fenn | is that a kind of consciousness? | 21:56 |
| kanzure | what do you mean "create a scene in their head" | 21:57 |
| fenn | is it an ineffable qualia of truth? | 21:57 |
| kanzure | how do i know if i have a scene or not? | 21:57 |
| jrayhawk | hmmm | 21:57 |
| fenn | is it the juice that p-zombies are trying to suck out of brains? | 21:57 |
| kanzure | dopamine nectar juice | 21:57 |
| ebowden | They are asked to imagine themselves in a warm beach with blue sky, and white sand. | 21:58 |
| fenn | kanzure: i think it's more to do with the sigma receptor | 21:58 |
| ebowden | Normal people can do this. | 21:58 |
| kanzure | how do i know if i am doing it or not? | 21:58 |
| fenn | all people fall on the normal curve | 21:58 |
| fenn | normal people can do what? | 21:59 |
| ebowden | Because you can 'see' the scene in your head, as if you are remembering it. | 21:59 |
| jrayhawk | 100% chocolate makes for weird fracture patterns; maybe there's a way to forge chocolate | 21:59 |
| fenn | maybe you are just remembering what you want to | 21:59 |
| kanzure | and if you've never been there, then it can't be remembering | 22:00 |
| ebowden | That's why I said 'see' as if you are remembering. | 22:00 |
| fenn | jrayhawk: there is a whole science of chocolate metallurgy and studying the grain growth under various conditions, annealing and tempering and hardening etc | 22:00 |
| jrayhawk | oh neat | 22:00 |
| ebowden | I did not say you would be remembering. | 22:00 |
| kanzure | "Working memory capacity predicts dopamine synthesis capacity in the human striatum" | 22:00 |
| fenn | chocolate often goes on sale when it has been stored improperly or for too long and has the wrong crystal structure | 22:00 |
| kanzure | paperbot: http://www.jneurosci.org/content/28/5/1208.short | 22:01 |
| jrayhawk | maybe that would be a good room-temperature unspoilable anisotropic solid | 22:01 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1523%2FJNEUROSCI.4475-07.2008 | 22:01 |
| fenn | but if you are just going to melt it and recast then it doesnt matter what the structure is | 22:01 |
| jrayhawk | though if you had more of a "why" i could give a better answer | 22:01 |
| jrayhawk | maybe | 22:01 |
| fenn | i want to make a logistically optimized generic food. have you seen "serenity"? | 22:01 |
| ParahSailin | just drink lb | 22:02 |
| jrayhawk | not recently enough to remember the food involved | 22:02 |
| fenn | i am thinking something about 20mm on a side, a high fat high protein cube with two edible separators (rice paper?) stacked up in tubes | 22:02 |
| fenn | in "serenity" they are toting these gold bars around, and in the end it turns out they're vitamin-enhanced clif bars or something | 22:03 |
| fenn | everyone knew this, the joke was on the viewer | 22:03 |
| kanzure | hrmm i can't find reports of exceptional working memory | 22:03 |
| jrayhawk | various bits of beef round have some pretty tough fibers; maybe they can be jerkied | 22:03 |
| fenn | my impression of pemmican is way different from the "pemmican" currently being sold by the sioux at REI | 22:04 |
| jrayhawk | the jerky equivalent of string cheese | 22:04 |
| fenn | they're selling something more like a slim jim, that can't be right | 22:04 |
| jrayhawk | a cube of smokey deliciousness | 22:04 |
| fenn | shouldnt it be the texture of modeling clay? | 22:04 |
| Lemminkainen | I need to cook with this! | 22:04 |
| fenn | the other option was to put pemmican in metallized plastic baby food pouches | 22:05 |
| jrayhawk | i think pemmican is anywhere from pate to chunky meatball | 22:05 |
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| fenn | "chunky meatball" just seems like it would go bad | 22:05 |
| Lemminkainen | pemmican and bone marrow pasta bolognese | 22:05 |
| Lemminkainen | fresh black olives and buratta on top | 22:06 |
| jrayhawk | huh, second result for "pemmican" is mark sisson | 22:06 |
| ebowden | Oh, interesting, oxford are recruiting people with exceptional working memory capacity. | 22:06 |
| fenn | that's probably where i heard of it | 22:06 |
| fenn | "weeks away from camp with nothing but pemmican to eat and snow to drink" sounds pretty good | 22:07 |
| Lemminkainen | liver dumplings are also pretty great for that | 22:08 |
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| fenn | mark sisson's method is totally different from what i read about northern michigan tribes | 22:08 |
| xmj | so i'm finally done with those videos | 22:09 |
| xmj | jrayhawk: thanks again | 22:09 |
| fenn | they covered a glob of meat in clay, baked the clay ball in coals for like 2 days, then broke open the clay and powdered the now-ultra-dry meat | 22:09 |
| xmj | turns out i want more fish and less beans. otherwise i'm in the good | 22:09 |
| jrayhawk | but, but, the magical fruit! | 22:09 |
| xmj | ? | 22:10 |
| jrayhawk | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beans,_Beans,_the_Musical_Fruit | 22:10 |
| jrayhawk | i suppose green plantains are more magical | 22:10 |
| fenn | anyway i tried to find a commodity source of saturated fat; lard has been polluted with omega-6 and beef suet is super oxidized | 22:10 |
| fenn | coconut oil melts at a very low temperature, so i guess that leaves cocoa butter | 22:11 |
| fenn | maybe mix carnauba wax and coconut oil | 22:11 |
| jrayhawk | tropical traditions sells five gallon buckets of coconut oil for $100-150 depending on quality | 22:11 |
| jrayhawk | I also have a five gallon bucket of grass-fed tallow from US Wellness meats, but I feel sorta crappy if I try to use it as a staple calorie source. | 22:12 |
| gradstudentbot | I really like him, but some of his work is really problematic. | 22:12 |
| fenn | is beeswax edible? | 22:12 |
| fenn | i mean it probably wont kill you, but eating nothing but beeswax + coconut oil for months? | 22:12 |
| jrayhawk | these days I mostly just buy ten pound bags of frozen grain-finished ground beef suet. | 22:13 |
| jrayhawk | seems to do okay | 22:13 |
| fenn | where do you get suet? | 22:13 |
| jrayhawk | Special order from grocery stores. $1-2/lb | 22:14 |
| fenn | that's pretty cheap | 22:14 |
| fenn | that's cheaper than paraffin | 22:14 |
| jrayhawk | I'm sure I could get it for less if I bothered to get to know any local cattle farmers or butchers. | 22:14 |
| fenn | and it isn't oxidized to death? | 22:14 |
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| jrayhawk | Not that I've noticed. | 22:14 |
| fenn | i had a bad experience with bird feeder cake | 22:15 |
| kanzure | http://cocomac.g-node.org/drupal/? "CoCoMac (Collations of Connectivity data on the Macaque brain) is our approach to produce a systematic record of the known wiring of the primate brain. The main database contains details of hundreds of tracing studies in their original descriptions. Further data are continuously added." | 22:15 |
| kanzure | "To overcome the problem of divergent brain maps we developed ORT (Objective Relational Transformation), an algorithmic method to convert data in a coordinate- independent way based on logical relations between areas in different brain maps." | 22:15 |
| fenn | ok, just a headache, but it was clearly caused by the suet | 22:15 |
| jrayhawk | Yeah, most of that stuff is stored room temperature in transparent packaging for long periods of time. | 22:15 |
| jrayhawk | Beef suet should be frozen and fresh and stored in a dark freezer. | 22:16 |
| fenn | jrayhawk: so i just go into safeway and say "buy me some frozen suet"? | 22:16 |
| gradstudentbot | Okay, someone really needs to do the lab dishes. | 22:16 |
| kanzure | weird site features http://cocomac.g-node.org/cocomac2/main/sitemap.php | 22:16 |
| kanzure | "Lookup brain site details for a given (list of) regions(s), which can be specified either by numeric ID, text ID, acronym or full name" | 22:16 |
| jrayhawk | The more sophisticated the butchery setup in the store, the more likely they'll be able to do interesting special orders. | 22:17 |
| fenn | do you go to a co-op or something? or is it a franchise that might exist somewhere else in the country? | 22:17 |
| jrayhawk | I think the franchise I usually shop at is Oregon-only. | 22:18 |
| fenn | why does it need to be frozen? | 22:18 |
| fenn | or is that just a plus | 22:18 |
| kanzure | fenn: try this out, http://cocomac.g-node.org/drupal/?q=search_wizard click "brain sites", and then click "no" for "constraints", and then click "search" | 22:19 |
| kanzure | what a terrible system | 22:19 |
| jrayhawk | Adipose tissue is cellular and involves matricies of protein; gram-negative bacteria can set up shop pretty easily. | 22:19 |
| kanzure | but apparently this is their idea of a brain map :( | 22:19 |
| jrayhawk | Though how vulnerable you are to endotoxemia is, of course, a matter of choice. | 22:19 |
| jrayhawk | Tallow is the processed form that's just pure fat. | 22:20 |
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| fenn | oh | 22:20 |
| fenn | suet is not rendered? | 22:20 |
| jrayhawk | No. | 22:20 |
| fenn | so what percentage of it is fat? | 22:20 |
| jrayhawk | Depends on how careful they are cutting it. | 22:21 |
| fenn | kanzure: it shows no results | 22:21 |
| kanzure | uh. hrm. | 22:22 |
| kanzure | well it showed me a giant table/matrix of brain region connectivity | 22:22 |
| kanzure | paperbot: http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/jocn_a_00556#.U1nxIVRDs-M | 22:22 |
| jrayhawk | there are paleo rotting meat enthusiast fringe groups | 22:22 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/d12af535ab4fd60def6fffb316dd1dc1.txt | 22:23 |
| jrayhawk | those are the best trolls | 22:23 |
| * fenn gets out the can of ether to fire up the ol' chrome engine | 22:23 | |
| fenn | jrayhawk: i'm not interested in "cultured" anything unless i know exactly what is growing | 22:24 |
| jrayhawk | Yeah, I can't actually deal with really really large LPS loads. I'm a lot more resiliant than most folks, at least. | 22:25 |
| fenn | okay cocomac shows a table in chrome, but i still have no idea what it says | 22:25 |
| kanzure | there's json output available if you select it | 22:26 |
| fenn | jrayhawk: huh? gram-negative is in yogurt. you can't eat yogurt? | 22:26 |
| fenn | i mean you're not injecting it | 22:26 |
| fenn | kanzure: yeah but what the hell am i looking at? | 22:26 |
| fenn | 100100AB89-NLOT-IIIAB89NLOT-IIIDLamina_SubCtx(1)(1)(16)(16) | 22:27 |
| kanzure | is this chrome or chromium? | 22:27 |
| fenn | google-chrome-beta | 22:27 |
| jrayhawk | what strains are gram-negative? | 22:27 |
| fenn | Version 34.0.1847.14 beta | 22:27 |
| fenn | anyway the point was that a bunch of tables with numbers in them doesn't really help me in anyway | 22:28 |
| fenn | jrayhawk: e. coli, lactic acid bacteria, salmonella, um, just about anything that is not a pathogen | 22:28 |
| jrayhawk | I mean, in yogurt | 22:29 |
| jrayhawk | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactobacillus the common one sure ain't | 22:30 |
| fenn | huh | 22:31 |
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| fenn | okay i dont know what i am talking about | 22:32 |
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| jrayhawk | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipopolysaccharide LPS is one of those big reasons intestinal permeability is a gateway to autoimmunity | 22:33 |
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| fenn | so is the idea to not have gram-negative bacteria growing in your gut in the first place? | 22:35 |
| fenn | also what's with mannan oligosaccharide supplements | 22:36 |
| jrayhawk | No, the idea is to keep the tight junctions zipped up. | 22:36 |
| xmj | that's one thing i haven't quite grokked | 22:37 |
| xmj | how does one do that? | 22:37 |
| fenn | i ate a bagel today. am i going to die? | 22:37 |
| xmj | Sure. | 22:38 |
| xmj | Unless you want to live forever, which Queen tells me you don't | 22:38 |
| fenn | i guess gram-negatives are not typically pathogens because we have such good defenses against them | 22:39 |
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| fenn | xmj: where'd you get that idea? | 22:39 |
| jrayhawk | xmj: the only thing we know super-well mechanistically is a universal response to gliadin via chemokine receptor 3; observationally this seems to be pretty universal with low concentrations of grain prolamines, and more scattered responses to legumes, dairy (probably casein), nightshades (probably glycoalkaloids), yeast, and various kinds of intestinal dysbiosis | 22:40 |
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| xmj | fenn: Quee - Who wants to live forever? | 22:40 |
| juri_ | i want to live forever. | 22:41 |
| xmj | jrayhawk: TLDR eliminate grains, legumes and dairy - and be happy? | 22:41 |
| Lemminkainen | fenn gram-negatives are definitely pathogens | 22:42 |
| kanzure | what is TLDR? | 22:42 |
| fenn | Just gotta get out - just gotta get right outta here | 22:42 |
| Lemminkainen | enterohemorrhagic E. coli, Shigella, Cholera et al | 22:42 |
| Zhwazi | Too Long, Didn't Read | 22:42 |
| jrayhawk | Eliminate grains, at least. May be prudent to demo a period of eliminating everything else just to get a baseline, but sensitivity varies. | 22:42 |
| xmj | Reddit-speak for "Summary in one (short) sentence." | 22:42 |
| kanzure | fuck reddit | 22:42 |
| jrayhawk | technically originated on SA. | 22:43 |
| kanzure | like all evil | 22:43 |
| fenn | what is "reddit" | 22:43 |
| xmj | SA ? | 22:43 |
| fenn | is that short for "I read it"? | 22:43 |
| kanzure | xmj: the root of all evil on the internet | 22:43 |
| fenn | "I read your one sentence summary" | 22:43 |
| kanzure | anything terrible and ungood can be traced back to that community | 22:43 |
| kanzure | even things they are not directly responsible for, like vaccinations | 22:44 |
| gradstudentbot | I just finished my pset two days early. | 22:44 |
| fenn | Salk was secretly a member of SA | 22:44 |
| kanzure | probably | 22:44 |
| xmj | jrayhawk: cool | 22:45 |
| fenn | jrayhawk: the reactions to dairy are probably to lectins from whatever the cow ate | 22:45 |
| fenn | gliadin is a subset of lectins | 22:46 |
| jrayhawk | separate thing | 22:47 |
| jrayhawk | WGA is the lectin, gliadin is a prolamine | 22:47 |
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| fenn | man the wikipedia article on gliadin sucks | 22:50 |
| xmj | It's wiki. Improving is allowed as long as you bring the [[quotation needed]] | 22:50 |
| fenn | prolamine isn't a functional description | 22:50 |
| fenn | "Prolamines are a group of plant storage proteins having a high proline content" | 22:51 |
| fenn | okay but what does it do | 22:51 |
| xmj | rewrite it | 22:51 |
| jrayhawk | stores nitrogen, elastically binds to basically everything | 22:51 |
| fenn | okay so zein from corn | 22:52 |
| fenn | zein, a prolamine, is it found in cow's milk? | 22:52 |
| xmj | sigh | 22:53 |
| xmj | "Eliminate dairy" basically means "No cream in my coffee" which will be hard. | 22:53 |
| jrayhawk | the nitrogen content makes it extremely valuable, the proline content makes it nigh-indigestable, the random binding affinities make it highly immunogenic, and the incredibly long nature makes it mechanically complicated (similar to the albumin family) | 22:53 |
| jrayhawk | dairy protein is the (potential) issue; cream is probably fine | 22:54 |
| xmj | hm. | 22:54 |
| jrayhawk | ghee is also pure fat | 22:54 |
| fenn | chocolate or coconut oil, probably want an emulsifier like egg yolk | 22:54 |
| xmj | how's there no protein in cream? | 22:54 |
| xmj | how come* | 22:54 |
| jrayhawk | Cream is what rises to the top; it's fat. Solids sink. | 22:56 |
| gradstudentbot | So, people always joke about that, but I feel like weaving baskets underwater would not be the easiest thing in the world. | 22:57 |
| fenn | cream contains 2% protein, probably mostly whey | 22:57 |
| xmj | hm | 22:57 |
| xmj | that'd make sense. | 22:57 |
| fenn | "solids sink" isn't quite accurate when talking about milk protein | 22:58 |
| fenn | cream rises because fat is less dense than water | 22:58 |
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| jrayhawk | Well, sinks below the fat, anyway | 22:58 |
| jrayhawk | you're right, it stays mostly solute in the water. | 22:58 |
| fenn | there is still water (and dissolved proteins) in the gaps between fat micelles in the cream | 22:58 |
| fenn | what's wrong with dairy protein again? | 22:59 |
| fenn | i thought all the "casein causes cancer" stuff was based on the (flawed) china study | 22:59 |
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| fenn | and whey just stimulates IGF because of its amino acid profile | 23:00 |
| jrayhawk | Induces autoimmunity in some folks. | 23:00 |
| fenn | or something | 23:00 |
| fenn | why would dairy protein induce autoimmunity | 23:00 |
| jrayhawk | Don't know; intestinal permeability is a very new field. | 23:01 |
| jrayhawk | I mean, the stupid answer is "varying levels of adaptation based on genetics" | 23:01 |
| jrayhawk | but it's not a particularly satisfactory one. | 23:01 |
| fenn | we know that gliadin causes intestinal permeability, so maybe there's something like gliadin in milk (and maybe it isn't casein or whey) | 23:01 |
| fenn | that's why i brought up lectins (I read this page but it didn't really "stick" http://krispin.com/lectin.html ) | 23:03 |
| fenn | "Glucosamine is specific for wheat lectin and it is this specificity that may protect the gut and cartilage from cell inflammation and destruction in wheat (or gluten) responsive arthritis." | 23:03 |
| jrayhawk | There may also be something about galactose and intestinal dysbiosis. | 23:04 |
| jrayhawk | Yeah, I liked that theory a lot. | 23:04 |
| jrayhawk | anti-TTG is heavily involved in arthritis, so stopping both the permeability and the specific antigen response would sure make sense for improving joints | 23:05 |
| fenn | i mean, cows eat grains, and they probably also have intestinal permeability, so it's not unreasonable that there's plant proteins in their milk | 23:05 |
| fenn | plus cow blood in the milk | 23:05 |
| jrayhawk | huh http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23626786 | 23:06 |
| fenn | well there you go | 23:06 |
| jrayhawk | i totally didn't mammary tight junctions were variable | 23:07 |
| jrayhawk | i guess that makes sense; immune system's gotta get access somehow. | 23:07 |
| fenn | .title | 23:07 |
| yoleaux | Lipopolysaccharide disrupts the milk-blood barrier ... [PLoS One. 2013] | 23:07 |
| jrayhawk | anyway, seems to be an issue even with grass fed milk, and raw milk, though those things anecdotally help some | 23:08 |
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| fenn | i'm sure getting your milk from one cow is better than from 1000 cows all mixed together | 23:09 |
| jrayhawk | one of the more amusing things is that people without lactase persistance genes can still adapt to pretty heavy dairy consumption just due to gut flora | 23:09 |
| gradstudentbot | These findings indicate that extensive genetic engineering of human hematopoiesis can be achieved with lentiviral vectors. | 23:09 |
| fenn | i definitely couldn't tolerate milk after being vegan for several years | 23:09 |
| fenn | or cheese | 23:10 |
| jrayhawk | Cheese is the highest protein form of dairy. | 23:10 |
| jrayhawk | Ghee should be safe if ever you want to toy with buttery flavor again. | 23:10 |
| fenn | oh, i can drink milk now | 23:10 |
| jrayhawk | oh good | 23:11 |
| Lemminkainen | I don't understand this idea of human health as some hugely fragile thing | 23:11 |
| fenn | Lemminkainen: are you kidding | 23:11 |
| Lemminkainen | gods forbid you eat milk from 1000 cows or a conventionally raised apple | 23:11 |
| Lemminkainen | that will surely doom your to teh cancers | 23:11 |
| jrayhawk | Humans are on the cutting edge of what's metabolicly possible. | 23:11 |
| Lemminkainen | not like your metabolism isn't topologically robust and like you don't have multiple repair enzymes | 23:11 |
| fenn | all that complexity just makes for multiple failure modes | 23:12 |
| Lemminkainen | I'm not sure you understand complexity's relationship to resiliency in a nonhomogenous directed graph, then | 23:12 |
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| fenn | yesterday i was reading about mesh networking protocols | 23:13 |
| fenn | there's a difference between complexity and redundancy | 23:13 |
| Lemminkainen | your metabolism is not the same as a BATMAN | 23:13 |
| fenn | Lemminkainen: how do you explain the cancer epidemic? | 23:14 |
| Lemminkainen | I don't understand how you see an epidemic in places where we lack rigorous historical data | 23:15 |
| Lemminkainen | that's wobbly thinking | 23:15 |
| jrayhawk | or the atherosclerosis epidemic, or the obesity epidemic, or the hypertension epidemic, or the insulin resistance epidemic, or the autoimmune epidemic | 23:15 |
| jrayhawk | we have quite good anthropological data on non-westernized societies | 23:15 |
| Lemminkainen | who have also polluted their local environment with less industrial garbage | 23:16 |
| Lemminkainen | fenn http://www.barabasilab.com/pubs/CCNR-ALB_Publications/200010-05_Nature-OrganMetabolic/200010-05_Nature-OrganMetabolic.pdf | 23:16 |
| fenn | so is a "conventional" (lol) apple a cause of cancer or not? | 23:16 |
| Lemminkainen | you can't determine that | 23:17 |
| jrayhawk | gosh, i guess we can't know anything, guys | 23:17 |
| jrayhawk | best pack up and go home | 23:17 |
| Lemminkainen | show me an assay for causality between apples and tumorigenesis | 23:18 |
| fenn | i quite like the explanation afforded by the china study | 23:18 |
| fenn | the mice who didn't get enough protein died before their cancer progressed enough to be noticed | 23:18 |
| Lemminkainen | so organic apples are...what? | 23:19 |
| Lemminkainen | more proteinaceous? | 23:19 |
| fenn | no, they just don't have "industrial garbage" on them | 23:19 |
| Lemminkainen | you're stringing together distal correlations into a misguided idea of causality here | 23:19 |
| fenn | i think the causality of cancer is anything but clear | 23:19 |
| jrayhawk | Lemminkainen: warburg effect; mitochondria overloading causes mitochondrial damage causes cancer | 23:20 |
| jrayhawk | apples can also promote the growth of cancer by supporting the lactic acid pathway | 23:20 |
| Lemminkainen | and you're seeing mitochondrial overload from what? | 23:21 |
| jrayhawk | Any metabolic load that they're not prepared for for whatever reason. Nutrient deficiencies, inflammatory side-effects, etc. | 23:21 |
| Lemminkainen | do you know how mitochondrial biogenesis works? | 23:21 |
| Lemminkainen | cells don't keep damaged mitochondria around | 23:21 |
| gradstudentbot | Can I get Saturday off? | 23:21 |
| jrayhawk | Optimally, yeah. | 23:21 |
| jrayhawk | Shit goes wrong. | 23:22 |
| fenn | like not fasting | 23:22 |
| Lemminkainen | and the body has multiple levels of repair mechanisms | 23:22 |
| jrayhawk | I won't claim sugar is inherently deadly or anything (see: kitavans), but in the right context it's entirely capable of inducing pathological cellular signalling and oxidative stress. | 23:23 |
| fenn | huh i always wondered where they got the idea for DCA as a cancer therapy | 23:23 |
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| fenn | dichloroacetic acid (DCA), which promotes respiration and the activity of mitochondria, has been shown to kill cancer cells in vitro and in some animal models.[9] The body often kills damaged cells by apoptosis, a mechanism of self-destruction that involves mitochondria, but this mechanism fails in cancer cells where the mitochondria are shut down. The reactivation of mitochondria in cancer | 23:23 |
| fenn | cells restarts their apoptosis program. | 23:23 |
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| gradstudentbot | The results of my study indicate that the climate is about to get really weird. | 23:25 |
| fenn | i'm pretty skeptical of "look at these healthy indigenous people" after it was revealed the Hunza people just didn't keep very good track of their age and exaggerated when the scientists asked how old they were | 23:25 |
| entelechios | this whole libressl thing is funny as hell | 23:25 |
| dingo | :D | 23:25 |
| dingo | "shut up and hack" | 23:26 |
| dingo | its a good motto | 23:26 |
| entelechios | though it took a while for the patch for openbsd to come out compared to other OS's i had to patch | 23:26 |
| entelechios | for openssl | 23:26 |
| entelechios | during heartbleed | 23:26 |
| entelechios | god that was a pain | 23:26 |
| entelechios | custom built it instead of the patch just to keep things running | 23:26 |
| entelechios | then got told by the goons in #openbsd that i made an irrevokable mistake and might as well reinstall | 23:26 |
| xmj | entelechios: that's bullshit thought | 23:27 |
| fenn | some people just keep ferrets | 23:27 |
| xmj | though | 23:27 |
| entelechios | yes i realize hahaha | 23:27 |
| xmj | OpenSSL was *really fast* to providing binpatches. | 23:27 |
| entelechios | fuck arrogant irc nerds | 23:27 |
| dingo | #openbsd is not openbsd | 23:27 |
| dingo | they are assholes there mostly | 23:27 |
| Lemminkainen | fenn and jrayhawk I still don't follow your logic here, it seems a bit random | 23:27 |
| dingo | i had a patch shit all over in there once | 23:27 |
| xmj | FreeBSD was *fast* for the Port and *not so fast == 20h* for the base patches. | 23:27 |
| Lemminkainen | we're not made of glass | 23:27 |
| dingo | i was soliciting openbsd users to test my openbsd patch | 23:27 |
| xmj | dingo: so? | 23:28 |
| dingo | and i got these people going on about "I don't go applying some random stranger's patch, thats not secure" | 23:28 |
| gradstudentbot | Is there free food at that seminar? | 23:28 |
| dingo | and its like uhh dude... its source code, review it.... | 23:28 |
| jrayhawk | The normal evolutionary sciences analogy that is typically used is "Ferrari" | 23:28 |
| xmj | dingo: don't take it personally if they criticize you for your patch's lack of quality | 23:28 |
| fenn | Lemminkainen: if you have a health problem you very quickly learn that either a) the doctors know what they're talking about, or b) the doctor's don't know. if you end up in b you have to start thinking about why it is people get sick | 23:28 |
| xmj | dingo: better way to get a patch reviewed is via a mailing list, fwiw | 23:28 |
| dingo | i ended up leaving, but one of the devs contacted me and said hey man sorry those dudes don't speak for us | 23:28 |
| entelechios | what was really annoying was having to rebuild apache against the patch too | 23:28 |
| dingo | eyah well it got ignored anyway | 23:28 |
| entelechios | openbsd apache from like 2002 or some shit | 23:29 |
| dingo | on -tech | 23:29 |
| xmj | entelechios: you don't | 23:29 |
| xmj | openbsd has nginx in base, and afaik it's not statically linked. | 23:29 |
| entelechios | well, i did, because that's the only way i coulda gotten our mailserver working again | 23:29 |
| dingo | entelechios: hates openbsd like i hate djb's software | 23:29 |
| xmj | stop spilling bullshit non-information. | 23:29 |
| xmj | :( | 23:29 |
| Lemminkainen | fenn you can definitely think about why people get sick; I've met a lot of people lately with the MTHFKR mutation in glutamate metabolism who are self-medicating quite well for it | 23:29 |
| entelechios | not my decicions here to use that | 23:29 |
| entelechios | is it in 5.5 base? | 23:29 |
| xmj | it's obvious you're talking out of your ass when you reveal you don't know the difference between statically versus dynamically linked. | 23:29 |
| Lemminkainen | but it takes a LOT to actually induce a huge pathology in almost anyone | 23:29 |
| entelechios | if it is i'd way rather be seeing that used | 23:30 |
| Lemminkainen | multiple mutations usually need to happen to induce cancer or some other disease pathology | 23:30 |
| fenn | Lemminkainen: self medicating how? | 23:30 |
| dingo | entelechios: if you're doing your job, then just do it -- if you're doing something for a home hobby, then chose something you want to work with | 23:30 |
| jrayhawk | Cancer is not a disease of somatic mutation. | 23:30 |
| entelechios | nope just doin my job | 23:30 |
| jrayhawk | It is a metabolic disease. | 23:30 |
| entelechios | and eh i enjoy it | 23:30 |
| entelechios | i got a big old bonus | 23:30 |
| entelechios | and a raise | 23:30 |
| entelechios | out of the past couple weeks of bullshit from that on top of other things | 23:31 |
| dingo | if you were a surfer, you'd be mad that the waves sucked today, or it was too cold, or nobody appreciates your surfing style, or the how the lifeguards are always telling you to go somewhere else, etc. etc. | 23:31 |
| entelechios | lol some surfer bitching about how people dont appreciate his surfing style deserves to get attacked by sharks | 23:31 |
| fenn | anyway there are large percentages of the american populace who are ill, it's not due exclusively to genetics (unless you consider the GLO- mutation "genetics") | 23:31 |
| Lemminkainen | jrayhawk wut cancer is not somatic? | 23:31 |
| jrayhawk | Cancer is mutagenic; mutagenesis is not the primary cause of cancer. | 23:32 |
| ebowden_ | By the way, can errors in protein synthesis trigger cancer? | 23:33 |
| entelechios | and the biggest reason i found it a pain in the ass was having to pull down via cvs the base src | 23:34 |
| entelechios | i don't live in a country with fast internet | 23:34 |
| entelechios | so that meant some late as shit overtime | 23:34 |
| entelechios | cvs heh | 23:35 |
| Lemminkainen | jrayhawk you'll need to provide a source on that claim | 23:35 |
| xmj | entelechios: like git would be faster. | 23:35 |
| entelechios | xmj, usually it is | 23:36 |
| entelechios | eg pulling down chromium sources | 23:36 |
| entelechios | thats gigashits worth | 23:36 |
| fenn | Lemminkainen: he's just referring to the warburg hypothesis | 23:36 |
| entelechios | and defintely takes less time via git than svn | 23:36 |
| jrayhawk | Thomas Seyfried and Eugene Fine are the trailblazers on that front, AFAIK | 23:36 |
| xmj | entelechios: i got 200mbit/s downstream, i don't care about your DVCS bikeshed | 23:37 |
| entelechios | i'm pulling a guess out of my ass here but maybe it opens a new conn per file | 23:37 |
| entelechios | welcome to costa rica, can i serve you your opulence on a silver platter poisoned for your gringo ass? | 23:37 |
| xmj | dingo: is entelechios always like that? | 23:37 |
| entelechios | no i don't really talk often in here | 23:37 |
| xmj | bikeshedding around non-issues, for instance? | 23:37 |
| gradstudentbot | I think I'll be done in 4 years. | 23:38 |
| xmj | Marketing and Sales determined that the optimal bikeshed color is 'transparent'. | 23:38 |
| xmj | ... hence overruling engineering which claimed it was 'blue'. | 23:38 |
| xmj | 'Blue' obviously does not sell that well as Sales lacks selling rigor for it. | 23:38 |
| jrayhawk | http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1743-7075-7-7.pdf is probably the definitive paper | 23:39 |
| entelechios | my bikeshed is made of abalone shells | 23:39 |
| fenn | entelechios: git packs diffs into blobs and compresses them | 23:39 |
| entelechios | ah that's the ticket then | 23:39 |
| jrayhawk | http://robbwolf.com/2013/09/19/origin-cancer/ is an okay layman article | 23:39 |
| entelechios | anyways slang english isn't my forte wtf is a bikeshed | 23:40 |
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| entelechios | ahh i urbandictionaried it | 23:40 |
| fenn | entelechios: http://bikeshed.com/ | 23:40 |
| entelechios | bikeshed: anything to do with openbsd ever on irc | 23:40 |
| fenn | yeah | 23:41 |
| entelechios | still makes a fantastic mailserver and firewall OS | 23:41 |
| entelechios | anyways i now know why git does its thing faster and saves me time | 23:42 |
| entelechios | thanks for the information fenn | 23:42 |
| fenn | that is the least important feature of git | 23:42 |
| entelechios | agreed | 23:42 |
| fenn | michael ristow showed that exercise induces oxidative stress; cancer cells are operating at the edge of metabolism (which is why they need to use lactic acid metabolism) and are vulnerable to just a little bit more oxidative stress | 23:44 |
| fenn | i met a plasma physicist at berkeley studying cold oxygen plasmas; they were testing it on cancer, haven't investigated it since then | 23:45 |
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| entelechios | i eat a block of dark chocolate per week | 23:45 |
| entelechios | national tradition | 23:45 |
| fenn | .title https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3241555/ | 23:45 |
| yoleaux | Cold plasma selectivity and the possibility of a paradigm shift in cancer therapy | 23:45 |
| fenn | a) cold plasma application selectively eradicates cancer cells in vitro without damaging normal cells; and (b) significantly reduces tumour size in vivo. | 23:46 |
| entelechios | that's pretty cool | 23:46 |
| fenn | i think they have plasma based hand sterilizers for doctors who are tired of washing their hands all the time | 23:47 |
| fenn | it's a pretty simple device really | 23:47 |
| jrayhawk | cryolipolysis also seemed like a cute concept | 23:47 |
| jrayhawk | disproportionately apoptoses non-metabolic cells, stimulates BAT to eat up the result | 23:48 |
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| fenn | you inhale the oxygen plasma for cancer therapy, it's not a magic wand | 23:49 |
| fenn | what's BAT? | 23:49 |
| fenn | oh brown adipose tissue | 23:49 |
| entelechios | so am i talking to oncologists in here at all? | 23:49 |
| jrayhawk | Brown adipose tissue. | 23:49 |
| entelechios | anyone here familiar with some stuff done some years ago on inhibiting nitric oxide pathway controls | 23:50 |
| entelechios | to prevent radiation damage in mice | 23:50 |
| fenn | "the term Cryolipolysis is trademark-protected" | 23:50 |
| fenn | that seems unfair | 23:50 |
| jrayhawk | hah | 23:51 |
| fenn | entelechios: you mean just antioxidants? | 23:51 |
| entelechios | nah this was something specific | 23:51 |
| entelechios | lemme dig around for what i had in mind exactly | 23:51 |
| fenn | .title http://stm.sciencemag.org/content/1/3/3ra7.abstract | 23:52 |
| yoleaux | Radioprotection in Normal Tissue and Delayed Tumor Growth by Blockade of CD47 Signaling | 23:52 |
| entelechios | http://www.dotmed.com/news/story/10571 | 23:52 |
| entelechios | this was it i think | 23:52 |
| entelechios | yeah | 23:52 |
| entelechios | that was it | 23:52 |
| entelechios | neat stuff | 23:53 |
| fenn | i thought CD47 was a killer t-cell receptor | 23:54 |
| fenn | what does that have to do with NO | 23:54 |
| entelechios | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CD47 | 23:55 |
| entelechios | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CD47#Angiogenesis | 23:55 |
| fenn | "However, these isoforms are highly conserved between mouse and man" techno sample | 23:56 |
| fenn | paperbot: http://stm.sciencemag.org/content/1/3/3ra7.abstract | 23:57 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1126%2Fscitranslmed.3000139 | 23:57 |
| fenn | ah jeebus | 23:57 |
| fenn | let's try that again | 23:58 |
| fenn | paperbot: http://stm.sciencemag.org/content/1/3/3ra7.full | 23:58 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1126%2Fscitranslmed.3000139 | 23:58 |
| fenn | no science for you! | 23:59 |
| --- Log closed Fri Apr 25 00:00:06 2014 | ||
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