| --- Log opened Sun Oct 19 00:00:17 2014 | ||
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| kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MP8QDBBQNHg | 00:24 |
|---|---|---|
| yoleaux | Dragon Ball- Season 1 Episode 1: Secret of the Dragon Balls - YouTube | 00:24 |
| kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi4Hcs12oms | 00:32 |
| yoleaux | Death Note - Episode 1 - Full Episode - English Dubbed - YouTube | 00:32 |
| kanzure | hm. | 00:32 |
| kanzure | .title http://pastebin.com/VYpQ5CWA | 00:43 |
| yoleaux | Lately, whenever I say the name "Ryan Kennedy", two particular people spring to - Pastebin.com | 00:43 |
| JayDugger | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g05AkWUvKUw&list=UUSdmuA0iUC-cC0hsWVUCALg | 00:43 |
| yoleaux | Pulse Magnet for 2 Pianos and 2 Percussion by Matthew Hindson - YouTube | 00:43 |
| kanzure | "Euclid Writes an Algorithm: A Fairytale" http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/lamport/pubs/euclid.pdf | 00:57 |
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| kanzure | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8477230 "We use schematics to back the data on our domain models. It provides models that are separate from persistence models that live in the data / client layer (database or external service bound), and gives you a few nice things for free (like validation) and you can attach behavior to them." | 07:00 |
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| kanzure | "Making sure crypto stays insecure" http://cr.yp.to/talks/2014.10.18/slides-djb-20141018-a4.pdf | 08:54 |
| kanzure | JayDugger: split keyboard http://ergodox.org/ | 08:55 |
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| * fenn holds out hoping for pants-compatible ergodox | 09:19 | |
| fenn | i guess the idea is if you want to adjust the (dihedral?) angle you 3d print a new case bottom? | 09:20 |
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| kanzure | i spotted brandon wiley sending email to the plover people | 09:28 |
| fenn | who is brandon wiley? | 09:29 |
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| fenn | "Brandon Wiley cofounded the free software initiative to implement the Freenet architecture. When not coding for freedom, he is a freelance consultant, playwright, and filmmaker. He specializes in online communities and postmodern romantic comedies." | 09:30 |
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| fenn | works/attends university of texas austin? | 09:31 |
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| fenn | how does someone like this have such a low internet profile | 09:32 |
| kanzure | he's not low profile you've known about him for years | 09:32 |
| kanzure | this is like the least low profile you can get "Brandon Wiley co-founded freenet back in 1999 along with Ian Clarke. " | 09:32 |
| kanzure | there was some other reason that i know him but i can't remember.. it wasn't because of his presence in austin or austin hackerspace, and it wasn't freenet. | 09:33 |
| fenn | but that was like three pages down the search results | 09:33 |
| fenn | "ACTLab TV is an open source initiative Brandon Wiley co-founded while in graduated school at the University of Texas at Austin in the New Media program. Through the facilitation of Sandy Stone and along with a fellow colleague Brandon helped develop a peer to peer streaming video system that allows content providers to share broadcast to thousands of users over their own broadband connections." | 09:34 |
| fenn | i thought ACTLab got shut down | 09:35 |
| kanzure | checking some old emails | 09:35 |
| kanzure | he sent this 2011-02-24 http://www.quadror.com/about-quadror/ | 09:35 |
| kanzure | "QuaDror is a new space truss geometry that unfolds manifold design initiatives and can adapt to various conditions and configurations." | 09:35 |
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| fenn | i remember that | 09:37 |
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| fenn | "Brandon Wylie is a Funeral Director at Wyle Funeral Homes in Maryland. He earned his Associate of Applied Science Degree (AAS) in funeral service and mortal science at Fayetteville Technical Community College" | 09:52 |
| fenn | mortal science: science for mortals? | 09:52 |
| kanzure | .title http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/6797 | 09:55 |
| yoleaux | Distributed Hash Tables, Part I | Linux Journal | 09:55 |
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| JayDugger | Kanzure, Thank you. | 09:59 |
| kanzure | "Another claim from the original work of Nakamoto, which turned out not to be completely true is that a probability of reverting a transaction in a block on top of which there are n other blocks decreases exponentially with n. ... Lear Bahack [8] has recently shown that this claim is no longer true if we consider the difficulty adjustment algorithm, which is used in Bitcoin to gradually make mining new blocks more difficult as the total ... | 10:01 |
| kanzure | ... computational power of all miners grows. In his paper Bahack shows than an adversary can discard a block on any depth with a probability 1 regardless of his computational power if he is willing to wait long enough. An interesting survey of the known strategies for dishonest miners and their discussion can be found in [21]." | 10:01 |
| fenn | i'm pretty sure this is an outline for a science fiction novel: http://blanu.net/curious_yellow.html | 10:05 |
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| kanzure | "The primary strategy behind the Warhol superworm is to pre-scan the network for vulnerable targets. When the worm is launched it already has a large list of targets with a known method for infection and can therefore quickly infect an initial seed population. | 10:08 |
| kanzure | One thing which the Warhol paper mentions is that better results might be achieved via a coordinated worm in which various instances of the worm on different computers communicate with each other in order to optimize infection. The Warhol paper states, however, that no coordinated worm has ever been created. This paper proposes the first design for a worm which utilizes efficient communication between worm instances for an optimal infection ... | 10:09 |
| kanzure | ... strategy." | 10:09 |
| kanzure | hmm so there would have to be some infection planning routine and some way to coordinate this plan with already infected targets | 10:09 |
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| fenn | keep reading | 10:10 |
| kanzure | debatable "Also, it is simply wasteful for a worm instance to attempt to infect a system which has already been infected rather than choosing an uninfected host as a target." | 10:11 |
| kanzure | (unless your worm defends itself from itsef) | 10:11 |
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| fenn | that's basically the idea behind Curious Blue | 10:12 |
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| fenn | the paper assumes that all hosts/nodes on the internet are homogenous, whereas backbone routers and personal computers are very different, both in network topology/bandwidth and the software they run | 10:17 |
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| fenn | not surprising from a p2p software designer i guess | 10:18 |
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| kanzure | heh at the end, kazaa only had 2.5 million nodes | 10:20 |
| kanzure | whereas napster had 80 million :) | 10:20 |
| kanzure | in just 3 years | 10:20 |
| fenn | because napster had better content and momentum due to starting earlier | 10:21 |
| fenn | after napster went down everyone switched to kazaa and other networks | 10:22 |
| kanzure | 80 > 2 clearly not everyone heh | 10:22 |
| fenn | in other words, napster went from 80 million to zero overnight | 10:22 |
| kanzure | current state of file sharing is a little disappointing in comparison to that | 10:23 |
| kanzure | and youtube is just a crux | 10:23 |
| kanzure | wrong word. use an appropriate word. | 10:24 |
| kanzure | *pick an appropriate word. | 10:24 |
| fenn | files are shared now as huge discographies (for music) whereas in the napster days you would download one song at a time | 10:24 |
| fenn | video sharing wasn't really a thing | 10:24 |
| fenn | crutch* | 10:25 |
| fenn | quux* | 10:25 |
| kanzure | youtube links are still king of viral pretty much | 10:25 |
| kanzure | tudou ain't got nothing on that | 10:25 |
| kanzure | and magnet links suck. they should be links to a site that either gives you a magnet link or instructs you on how to install a magnet-link-compatible client. | 10:26 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnet_URI_scheme | 10:27 |
| fenn | i guess microsoft doesnt want to help illegal bittorrent use cases | 10:27 |
| fenn | magnet is just a DHT key disguised as a url | 10:27 |
| kanzure | most users do not have a client capable of making use of that magnet link | 10:28 |
| fenn | really? why wouldn't a modern torrent client be able to use it? | 10:28 |
| kanzure | whereas youtube links work for users that already have browsers | 10:28 |
| kanzure | most users do not have a torrent client installed | 10:28 |
| fenn | you can say the same thing . right | 10:28 |
| fenn | hm. i remember when you had to download a plugin to play videos | 10:29 |
| kanzure | obv. solution is to complain that magnet links aren't an onboarding scheme, which is certainly true... | 10:29 |
| fenn | what's the system called that figures out what to do with different protocols in a url, like how does telnet get launched when you click a telnet://, or email client when you click mailto: | 10:30 |
| kanzure | uri resolver? | 10:31 |
| fenn | i dont think so | 10:32 |
| fenn | i think it's called URL protocol handler (at least on windows) | 10:35 |
| fenn | sorry for the urgly url http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb266527(v=vs.85).aspx | 10:36 |
| fenn | .title | 10:36 |
| yoleaux | Installing and Registering Protocol Handlers (Windows) | 10:36 |
| kanzure | you might enjoy idling in #bitcoin-wizards (it's more academicy people-sitting-around-reading-papers-breaking-cryptography-schemes) | 10:36 |
| fenn | meh | 10:36 |
| fenn | i'll wait until i get a math coprocessor installed in my brain | 10:37 |
| kanzure | they collectively know more than i do about p2p distributed hash tables and shit | 10:37 |
| kanzure | (i hope) | 10:37 |
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| fenn | Applications supporting Magnet links include μTorrent, aMule, BitComet, Bitflu, BitSpirit, BitTorrent, DC++, Deluge, FrostWire, gtk-gnutella, Installous (iOS app), I2P, KTorrent, MLDonkey, Morpheus, Qbittorrent, rTorrent, Shareaza, Tixati, Transmission, Tribler, Xtorrent, Free Download Manager[1] and Vuze. | 10:40 |
| kanzure | hm. | 10:40 |
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| fenn | often there are no .torrent links because the tracker is unknown (private tracker) or the tracker died/disappeared but the torrent is still being seeded | 10:41 |
| kanzure | popcorntime is interesting but wont make youtube less sticky | 10:42 |
| fenn | it annoys me that there isn't better data typing or lists of applications compatible with a) your hardware/software and b) the file you're trying to open | 10:43 |
| fenn | like the MIME type lists web browsers used to allow you to edit | 10:44 |
| * fenn looks at /usr/share/mime/ | 10:49 | |
| kanzure | guns n' crypto | 10:56 |
| kanzure | funny how cathal became such a spook | 10:58 |
| kanzure | (not that it's a bad thing) | 10:58 |
| fenn | not sure how spamming the new url is supposed to prevent censorship? http://blog.popcorn-time.se/help-save-popcorn-time/ | 10:59 |
| kanzure | something like "people will clone the repositories and then there will at least be copies somewhere, maybe" | 11:00 |
| kanzure | what a poorly written post | 11:00 |
| fenn | no it was something about the DNS entry being removed | 11:01 |
| fenn | and trying to climb in google rankings (as if there's any other "popcorn time"?) | 11:01 |
| kanzure | dunno why they care so much about traffic | 11:01 |
| fenn | am seeing getpopcornti.me popcorntime.io and popcorn-time.se so maybe there's some spoofing going on? | 11:03 |
| fenn | "The program was abruptly taken down by its original developers on March 14, 2014, but was subsequently forked and taken over by other developers." | 11:04 |
| kanzure | that explains the shitty blog post | 11:04 |
| kanzure | what's the point of talking about curious blue in two separate channels | 11:05 |
| fenn | who else is talking about curious blue? | 11:09 |
| kanzure | i should fix their public logs | 11:09 |
| kanzure | (wumpus and andy) | 11:10 |
| kanzure | pfft | 11:11 |
| kanzure | coordination is hard i can't even convince the other three fourths of rayhawk | 11:11 |
| fenn | heath: what's ybit3? | 11:12 |
| fenn | i totally forget how to connect to that other chat-like service with the weird interface | 11:13 |
| kanzure | more specific pls | 11:14 |
| kanzure | oh, see pm | 11:14 |
| --- Log opened Sun Oct 19 11:16:19 2014 | ||
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| -!- Topic for ##hplusroadmap: biohacking, nootropics, transhumanism, open hardware | sponsored by george church and the NRA, banned by the Federal Death Administration (4 times) | this channel is LOGGED: http://gnusha.org/logs | http://diyhpl.us/wiki | not intentionally unrepeatable | 11:16 | |
| -!- Topic set by kanzure [~kanzure@131.252.130.248] [Fri Jun 6 17:48:33 2014] | 11:16 | |
| [Users ##hplusroadmap] | 11:16 | |
| [ _0bitcount] [ docl_ ] [ juri_ ] [ snuffeluffegus] | 11:16 | |
| [ altersid ] [ DonnchaC_ ] [ justanotheruser] [ strages ] | 11:16 | |
| [ andytoshi ] [ dpk ] [ juul ] [ strangewarp ] | 11:16 | |
| [ archels ] [ drazak ] [ kanzure ] [ streety ] | 11:16 | |
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| [ blueskin ] [ fenn ] [ nsh ] [ upgrayeddd ] | 11:16 | |
| [ Burn_ ] [ gnusha ] [ paperbot ] [ Urchin ] | 11:16 | |
| [ catern ] [ gnusha_ ] [ ParahSailin_ ] [ Viper168 ] | 11:16 | |
| [ CheckDavid] [ HashNuke ] [ pasky ] [ Vutral ] | 11:16 | |
| [ chris_99 ] [ heath ] [ Proteus ] [ Vutral_ ] | 11:16 | |
| [ comma8 ] [ hehelleshin] [ rak[1] ] [ yashgaroth ] | 11:16 | |
| [ cpopell2 ] [ HEx1 ] [ rigel ] [ yoleaux ] | 11:16 | |
| [ crescendo ] [ ivan` ] [ saurik ] [ yorick ] | 11:16 | |
| [ d4de^^ ] [ JayDugger ] [ sheena ] | 11:16 | |
| [ Daeken ] [ JingoFett ] [ sivoais ] | 11:16 | |
| [ dingo ] [ jrayhawk_ ] [ smeaaagle ] | 11:16 | |
| -!- Irssi: ##hplusroadmap: Total of 77 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 77 normal] | 11:16 | |
| -!- Channel ##hplusroadmap created Thu Feb 25 23:40:30 2010 | 11:16 | |
| -!- Irssi: Join to ##hplusroadmap was synced in 11 secs | 11:16 | |
| kanzure | hrm | 11:17 |
| kanzure | hrm | 11:17 |
| fenn | am guessing you only wanted one gnusha | 11:18 |
| fenn | am guessing you only wanted one gnusha | 11:18 |
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| fenn | 12:56 < kanzure> guns n' crypto | 11:18 |
| fenn | 12:56 < kanzure> guns n' crypto | 11:18 |
| fenn | gah wtf | 11:18 |
| fenn | gah wtf | 11:18 |
| * fenn kicks syndaemon | 11:18 | |
| * fenn kicks syndaemon | 11:18 | |
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| kanzure | good point | 11:19 |
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| kanzure | back to non-duplicated logs http://gnusha.org/logs/2014-10-19.log | 11:19 |
| kanzure | http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-wizards/2014-10-19.log | 11:19 |
| chris_99 | kanzure, have you used any python web crawlers per chance, Scrapy seems the main one, but it looks like you need to use Scrapyd to use it on multiple nodes, but i'm not sure how good that is | 11:20 |
| kanzure | i have used and written many python crawler things. what do you need? | 11:20 |
| chris_99 | ok, so i'm just writing something using boto to spawn my ec2 instances, but i'm trying to find something that'll use say 10 of those nodes to do crawling and appropiate rate limiting | 11:22 |
| kanzure | there's nothing that has a distributed crawling cluster out of the box quite yet | 11:22 |
| chris_99 | dammit | 11:22 |
| kanzure | i suggest using something like celery as a task queue that each of your nodes blug pinto | 11:22 |
| kanzure | *plug into | 11:22 |
| chris_99 | cheers, i'll look at that | 11:23 |
| kanzure | there are also smaller implementations like aq(?) | 11:23 |
| kanzure | ah, rq | 11:23 |
| chris_99 | would that also handle a hashtable/bloomfilter to prevent crawling the same url | 11:24 |
| chris_99 | twice | 11:24 |
| kanzure | no, you would have to do that before adding a task into the queue | 11:24 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/commoncrawl | 11:25 |
| kanzure | there's probably a docker container somewhere that has this already | 11:26 |
| kanzure | naive implementation is a check before jobs.add() where you just check against urls in the database that have already been crawled.. | 11:27 |
| chris_99 | the problem is, if each node is spidering separately, they could encounter the same url, to check that from a DB all the time would be problematic | 11:28 |
| kanzure | queries are pretty cheap | 11:29 |
| chris_99 | i was looking at http://www.michaelnielsen.org/ddi/how-to-crawl-a-quarter-billion-webpages-in-40-hours/ | 11:30 |
| chris_99 | which was interesting | 11:30 |
| chris_99 | but no source | 11:30 |
| kanzure | michael nielsen is highly responsive by email | 11:30 |
| chris_99 | ooh | 11:30 |
| chris_99 | i'll shoot an email | 11:30 |
| chris_99 | then | 11:30 |
| chris_99 | cheers | 11:30 |
| fenn | chris_99: maybe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grub_(search_engine) ? | 11:30 |
| kanzure | heh grub is still around? | 11:30 |
| fenn | no | 11:30 |
| fenn | presumably you can still find the source code somewhere | 11:31 |
| kanzure | i'm not convinced that search gains anything from decentralized architecture | 11:31 |
| kanzure | "The client indexes the URLs and send them back to the main grub server in a highly compressed form." | 11:32 |
| kanzure | how is that distributed | 11:32 |
| fenn | if hosts are rate limiting you based on ip the indexing goes N times faster with N crawlers | 11:32 |
| fenn | it's a distributed crawler, not a distributed search engine | 11:33 |
| kanzure | bitcoinization has been creating lots of bullshit side-effects like any of the thoughts that created this catastrophe of a thread: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2jm1qh/were_entering_the_era_of_decentralisation_ie/ | 11:33 |
| kanzure | good point | 11:34 |
| kanzure | "distributed crawler" should really just be "we're running a proxy network, yo" | 11:34 |
| fenn | that was my original idea; just use wget and set up proxies | 11:35 |
| kanzure | what's wrong with that idea? | 11:35 |
| fenn | but then you have to figure out how to redirect wget to different proxies | 11:35 |
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| kanzure | that's also what i said for a paper network (install proxies on undergrad phones etc) | 11:35 |
| kanzure | wget itself is not necessary of course | 11:35 |
| fenn | it's fine for sequential entries like foo.com/get?resource=123 | 11:35 |
| kanzure | import requests; requests.get(url, proxies={"http": some_picked_proxy}) | 11:36 |
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| fenn | this assumes you know the urls you want to download ahead of time | 11:37 |
| kanzure | ahead of time? why | 11:37 |
| fenn | in order to spread them evenly across your proxies | 11:37 |
| fenn | otherwise you end up writing a whole queing system | 11:38 |
| kanzure | load balancing should still work anyway | 11:38 |
| kanzure | that sorta software already exists like haproxy/nginx/whatever | 11:38 |
| fenn | queueueing | 11:38 |
| kanzure | "what do you mean round robin isn't sufficient?" | 11:38 |
| fenn | load balancing is the inverse | 11:39 |
| kanzure | were you around to see https://github.com/kanzure/paperbot/blob/master/paperbot/orchestrate.py#L62 | 11:39 |
| fenn | iirc that never worked right | 11:40 |
| kanzure | still needs moar unit tests | 11:40 |
| kanzure | it was recently written (august?) | 11:40 |
| fenn | oh, then no | 11:40 |
| kanzure | i wanted to clean up paperbot's source code | 11:41 |
| kanzure | and eventually get around to more testing | 11:41 |
| fenn | why does it still do libgen/scimag/get? | 11:41 |
| kanzure | less coupling, more separation of concerns, .. | 11:41 |
| kanzure | because libgen has content and uploading when possible is only friendly? | 11:41 |
| fenn | but downloading from libgen sucks for the user | 11:42 |
| fenn | and it seems to fail most of the time | 11:42 |
| kanzure | yeah i'm not sure what the failure modes are exactly | 11:42 |
| fenn | maybe i dont understand the "has content" part | 11:42 |
| kanzure | libgen scimag has some content that others have put there by doi number | 11:43 |
| kanzure | i should weaken that statement and say instead: | 11:46 |
| kanzure | libgen scimag sometimes maybe has some stuff but nobody really knows | 11:46 |
| chris_99 | haha no luck kanzure "Nothing has changed from my post: I’m not releasing it." | 11:46 |
| kanzure | but he replied! | 11:46 |
| chris_99 | mmm | 11:46 |
| kanzure | so there's that | 11:46 |
| fenn | i'm glad to see that http://commoncrawl.org exists | 11:49 |
| fenn | Common Crawl corpus contains petabytes of data collected over the last 7 years. It contains raw web page data, extracted metadata and text extractions. | 11:50 |
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| kanzure | "also it includes your grandmother's recipe for apple pie" | 11:54 |
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| DonnchaC_ | It might be interesting to have a modular browser addon to allow users to proxy requests through their own system. | 11:58 |
| kanzure | most browsers already allow users to specify a proxy | 11:59 |
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| DonnchaC_ | Sorry I'm not explaining it well. Have an addon which would allow a web service to proxy its requests/crawls through the browsers of clients who are online | 12:00 |
| kanzure | i think a mobile phone app would be better because then at least you are not intentionally interfering with a user's browsing habits | 12:00 |
| fenn | i think that's called TOR | 12:01 |
| DonnchaC_ | For example, for paperbot, people who are in universities could have the addon, opt-in to something like paperbot and occasionaly have their browser retrieve data in the background. | 12:01 |
| kanzure | tor isn't necessary for that architecture | 12:01 |
| kanzure | DonnchaC_: again i think they would be better off not using a browser plugin for that. instead it should be a service/background app on their phone. | 12:01 |
| kanzure | and also, it should selectively limit its operation when the phone user is phoning or browsing or w/e | 12:01 |
| fenn | desktops/laptops need no such limitation | 12:02 |
| DonnchaC_ | kanzure: Yes, phones are probably a good option. | 12:02 |
| kanzure | i just don't see the advantage of tying it into a browser | 12:02 |
| kanzure | except for distribution i guess. (but phones have that covered in other ways) | 12:02 |
| DonnchaC_ | Just thats its easy for users to install, they can do background tasks when the user is necessarily online. | 12:03 |
| DonnchaC_ | It would be difficult to distingush crawls from regular users browsing, as it is regular users | 12:03 |
| kanzure | so if it is crawls that you are aiming for then i think the system architecture should be different | 12:04 |
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| kanzure | "crawling all academic publishers only once/for updates and being done for it" requires different design than "people are randomly asking the system to fetch various pdfs somewhere" | 12:04 |
| fenn | i think it's both crawling and serving requests that the user can't access (but another user can) | 12:04 |
| kanzure | *and being done with it | 12:05 |
| fenn | the crawler is just another user basically | 12:06 |
| kanzure | biggest problem i still have is that, even if you have the loot of a few million pdfs, can't do much with it re: distribution, in a safe manner | 12:07 |
| fenn | if a user decides "journal of dentistry" is important to download, they just crawl it themselves, and the whole network benefits from that data | 12:07 |
| kanzure | in a way that doesn't rely on everyone not seeding it | 12:07 |
| fenn | when another user tries to download 'journal of dentistry: volume 23' it downloads from the other user, not from the publisher | 12:08 |
| kanzure | i don't think even freenet really solves that | 12:08 |
| fenn | freenet doesn't provide access to the internet | 12:09 |
| kanzure | i'm not talking about internet access | 12:09 |
| fenn | i guess you could use freenet as a backend to store the files | 12:09 |
| kanzure | you can't just expect people to store a few hundred gig of pdfs without someone getting arrested | 12:09 |
| kanzure | (unless your system is designed right) | 12:10 |
| fenn | nobody's storing any number of gigs (unless they want to) | 12:10 |
| kanzure | they are storing certain papers, though | 12:10 |
| fenn | yes | 12:10 |
| kanzure | and if you just route a request to an http server on their ip address, case closed... | 12:10 |
| fenn | explain "case closed" | 12:10 |
| kanzure | it means people are going to be busted | 12:10 |
| fenn | i dont see any way around that besides tor | 12:11 |
| fenn | but i also dont think the publishers are smart enough or persistent enough to track down a significant number of ip addresses and try to sue people | 12:11 |
| kanzure | tor still has a which-user-will-actually-store-this-crap problem | 12:12 |
| fenn | yes but you don't know who you're downloading from | 12:12 |
| fenn | afaik it's not illegal to run a tor exit node | 12:12 |
| fenn | anyway tor is slow and i presume we would actually want a complete copy of academia | 12:13 |
| fenn | bittorrent shows you the IP of who you're downloading from and it seems nobody cares | 12:14 |
| kanzure | i really hate the maidsafe/fiecoin/storj people for proposing such broken implementations | 12:14 |
| kanzure | and then stealing everyone's money | 12:14 |
| fenn | i have no idea what that is | 12:14 |
| kanzure | "distributed file storage! blockchains of files are the future!" | 12:14 |
| kanzure | "our system is immune to all possible cryptographic attacks because i want your money" | 12:14 |
| fenn | "Users providing storage space to the network earn Safecoin, a digital currency that can be used to store information on the network." hmm okay | 12:15 |
| kanzure | skip all the marketing horse shit | 12:15 |
| kanzure | it's just a gish gallop attack on people who value their time | 12:15 |
| kanzure | instead go straight to the criticism: | 12:16 |
| kanzure | https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Awpsoftware.net+storj&oq=site%3Awpsoftware.net+storj | 12:16 |
| kanzure | https://www.google.com/search?num=100&safe=off&q=site%3Awpsoftware.net+filecoin&oq=site%3Awpsoftware.net+filecoin | 12:16 |
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| kanzure | https://www.google.com/search?num=100&safe=off&q=site%3Awpsoftware.net+maidsafe&oq=site%3Awpsoftware.net+maidsafe | 12:16 |
| fenn | when you remove your disk from the network, are your files still accessible from elsewhere? | 12:17 |
| juri_ | fenn is alive again? | 12:17 |
| fenn | i am undead | 12:17 |
| juri_ | good to hear. | 12:18 |
| fenn | hah "Someone needs to redo The Producers for modern times. It should be about developer and a trader duo that due to some crazy futures contract have to make their altcoin become worthless." | 12:19 |
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| fenn | your tail has grown | 12:23 |
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| kanzure | i lied? | 12:23 |
| * fenn points at juri__ | 12:24 | |
| kanzure | fenn: so none of those implementations work. the criticism in those irc logs are good and worth reading. | 12:24 |
| fenn | sounds like work | 12:24 |
| kanzure | at minimum they are worth reading because it's somewhat educational for how to attack shitty cryptosystem proposals | 12:24 |
| fenn | i hate cryptography | 12:24 |
| fenn | i mean, i like using it, just not thinking about it | 12:25 |
| kanzure | go on | 12:25 |
| fenn | well you see it's hard to think about, almost by definition | 12:25 |
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| fenn | but all that effort goes nowhere because you just end up with whatever you started with | 12:26 |
| kanzure | as in "can't create security out of insecurity" ? | 12:26 |
| fenn | more like building a fence around a barn yard with no animals in it | 12:28 |
| dingo | rlogin 1984.ws :) | 12:28 |
| kanzure | i wonder if "everyone equally stores/shares a copy of the 'illegal' data" is a practical legal defense | 12:28 |
| kanzure | Connection closed by 88.80.6.213 | 12:29 |
| fenn | juries have been all over the place on complex technical computer issues like this | 12:29 |
| dingo | did you do ssh? i said rlogin :) hehe i'll fix the ssh thanks | 12:29 |
| kanzure | i did use rogin | 12:30 |
| kanzure | rlogin | 12:30 |
| kanzure | apparently rlogin is symlinked to ssh on my system | 12:30 |
| dingo | wow, really? yeah, it must be | 12:30 |
| fenn | see for example the weev trial; most computer literate people would assume a http url on the public internet is fair game | 12:30 |
| dingo | freenet philosophy is nobody owns a full part of any file | 12:30 |
| dingo | and you can't decrypt the data stored on your disk | 12:31 |
| fenn | so it's hard to predict how they will decide in advance | 12:31 |
| fenn | dingo: you meant to say telnet 1984.ws | 12:32 |
| dingo | well its telnet, ssh, and rlogin | 12:32 |
| dingo | and you're using kitty i see | 12:32 |
| fenn | how does that work | 12:33 |
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| dingo | that i know you're using kitty? | 12:34 |
| fenn | right | 12:34 |
| dingo | telnet.py 629 recv SB: XDISPLOC IS array('c', 'kitty:0') | 12:34 |
| fenn | oh its an x display | 12:35 |
| dingo | telnet option negotiation | 12:35 |
| fenn | i couldnt figure out how zeroconf dns info would get through my router | 12:36 |
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| kanzure | hmph | 12:39 |
| fenn | i can't read any of those banner texts | 12:43 |
| kanzure | you and your color scheme overrides | 12:43 |
| fenn | it looks like "GRST TEN" | 12:44 |
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| fenn | or maybe a super mario bros level (the one with the blob trees and clouds) | 12:44 |
| kanzure | heh this is worse than that ruby shit :) | 12:51 |
| dingo | < fenn> it looks like "GRST TEN" | 12:51 |
| dingo | "LAST TEN" hehe | 12:51 |
| dingo | very close | 12:51 |
| fenn | what's the banner on the 'one liners' page? | 13:00 |
| dingo | "wall" | 13:01 |
| fenn | maybe "wauu" | 13:02 |
| dingo | don't tell hellbeard that, he made it :) | 13:02 |
| fenn | it would make a good side scroller level | 13:03 |
| fenn | the secret bonus room is inside the "a" | 13:03 |
| dingo | hellbeard aka xzip, http://bbs.ninja/%7Exzippo/ | 13:03 |
| fenn | so apparently demoscene is still popular in finland | 13:04 |
| dingo | indeed, and sweden, and holland | 13:05 |
| dingo | they don't work so hard over there | 13:05 |
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| fenn | i think there is just a higher proportion of nerds | 13:05 |
| fenn | i am biased tho | 13:05 |
| dingo | someone was explaining, in sweden i think, in the 80's, they had a subsidy for buying home computers, and it just about bought exactly a commadore 64 or something | 13:06 |
| dingo | or spectrum zx | 13:07 |
| fenn | heh active thread from 2004 with 23k replies http://www.pouet.net/bbs.php | 13:07 |
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| kanzure | hmm that's more than the altcoins https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=67.0;sort=replies;desc | 13:11 |
| kanzure | (8k replies) | 13:11 |
| dingo | the demoscene parties in europe are huge... thousands of people | 13:13 |
| dingo | thats sortof what its all about, make a demo under time restriction with pizza and beer and friends, have it displayed on a big screen in front of a big crowd, people clapping or cheering for it | 13:13 |
| dingo | theres no such thing like it in america | 13:14 |
| dingo | http://www.kansasfest.org/ is the most retro-computer festival there is, and most of the folk are over 60 years old, not so exciting | 13:14 |
| dingo | kanzure is at a disadvatnage if he's trying to get a high score on tetris --- the server is hosted in sweden, all of the top scorers are from sweden :) | 13:16 |
| kanzure | NO LIMITS | 13:17 |
| kanzure | REMEMBER THE ALAMO | 13:17 |
| kanzure | and such | 13:17 |
| heath | fenn: ybit3 is mostly for logging channels that i'm not active in | 13:19 |
| * heath gets back to packing | 13:20 | |
| fenn | i'm impressed http://reho.st/gif/6b8355069d726501117563fc884d62785945ea31.gif | 13:24 |
| kanzure | 9th place, good enough for me | 13:25 |
| kanzure | fun fact: 90% of the lifespan of every hplusroadmapper is spent packing | 13:25 |
| kanzure | only 0.5% of their lifespan is spent unpacking | 13:26 |
| fenn | pack-ratting | 13:26 |
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| juri_ | kanzure: touché. ;) | 13:37 |
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| kanzure | ? | 13:41 |
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| fenn | kjskjskjs: http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/robots/thumb/horror_gears.jpg | 14:00 |
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| kanzure | http://www.collective-evolution.com/2014/10/14/you-can-turn-a-2000-shipping-container-into-an-epic-off-grid-home/ | 14:15 |
| kanzure | meh nevermind | 14:15 |
| kanzure | paperbot: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10255840701479214?journalCode=gcmb20 | 14:16 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/31a6d978d3624c46650a1bb45220713.txt | 14:16 |
| drethelin | why off the grid | 14:20 |
| fenn | because squares are for squares | 14:20 |
| drethelin | also most of thosoe homes are made out of 2-4 shipping containers | 14:21 |
| kanzure | i said nevermind god damn it why doesn't anyone isten | 14:22 |
| kanzure | *listen | 14:22 |
| kanzure | http://saltfarmtexel.com/ "SaltFarmTexel is specialized in evaluating the salt tolerance of conventional crops and halophytes, large-scale screening of possible salt tolerant cultivars, and development of saline agricultural practises. By facilitating the development and introduction of saline crops, SaltFarmTexel wants to contribute to the development of saline agriculture as a working concept. With over 1 billion hectares of salinized soil ... | 14:23 |
| fenn | because the internet has no delete button | 14:23 |
| kanzure | ... worldwide, and rising, the potential is enormous. By cultivating saline crops, saline soils can be seen as an opportunity to increase agricultural production." | 14:23 |
| kanzure | this is an unsolved problem? | 14:23 |
| kanzure | the salt crop stuff, not the delete button | 14:23 |
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| fenn | the problem is salty soils are usually in places with limited rainfall in the first place (hence the salt accumulation) | 14:24 |
| drethelin | I saw that salt farm thing the other day | 14:24 |
| drethelin | it seems like a neat idea | 14:24 |
| drethelin | Maybe we need to learn to cultivate edible cacti | 14:24 |
| fenn | there has been a lot of genetic modification work on rice and other grains to increase salt tolerance | 14:24 |
| kanzure | what about some salt-hungry bacteria | 14:25 |
| fenn | conservation of matter | 14:25 |
| fenn | unless you figured out biological cold fusion | 14:26 |
| kanzure | presumably bacteria is easier to deal with than just salt? | 14:26 |
| fenn | you might as well have said "anyone try molecular nanotech?" | 14:26 |
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| drethelin | Fenn: conservation of matter doesn't stop regular desalinization | 14:27 |
| kanzure | http://2013.igem.org/Team:CSU_Fort_Collins | 14:27 |
| drethelin | we don't need to ANNIHILATE the salt | 14:27 |
| drethelin | just to concentrate it in a way that's relatively cheap to seperate | 14:28 |
| fenn | most (all?) bacteria rely on a strong ion gradient across the cell membrane to run their enzymes; concentrating salt inside the cell would interfere with this, unless you had some specialized organelle to store salt in | 14:28 |
| drethelin | like that saltfarm thing was talking about how the salt mostly ends up in the leaves | 14:28 |
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| fenn | stupid biologists.. at least tell us how MUCH salt it removed | 14:31 |
| fenn | "a significant amount" | 14:31 |
| fenn | whatever | 14:32 |
| kanzure | sounds like gradstudentbot's handywork | 14:33 |
| fenn | "Most halophilic and all halotolerant organisms expend energy to exclude salt from their cytoplasm to avoid protein aggregation" | 14:33 |
| fenn | if you get enough rain it will wash the salt out | 14:37 |
| fenn | the problem is people try to water crops with groundwater and over time the salt builds up | 14:38 |
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| fenn | potential solution to the fresh water problem: http://challenge-old.bfi-internal.org/application_summary/51 | 14:43 |
| fenn | small diameter high speed maglev transport in vacuum | 14:44 |
| fenn | get it to orbital velocity and you don't even need the mag-lev | 14:45 |
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| kanzure | hrmm | 14:56 |
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| kanzure | dingo: any thoughts on integrating https://github.com/kanzure/modelo with sqlalchemy (particularly for querying)? | 15:20 |
| kanzure | i assume it might be some separate component and not a member method/extension of Model. | 15:21 |
| dingo | i don't know enough about sqlalchemy to have an opinion on it, sorry. But I have exactly the same thoughts as you -- regarding querying, like SubModel.find(where...string..is..in..something,or..int..le..10) | 15:32 |
| dingo | some time ago i developed some pile of shit query system that didn't get very far, but I very much want to provide modelling, and effecient lookups, without tying to a specific provider (like mongo) | 15:33 |
| dingo | i've settled for using sqlitedict and baking my own indicies/lookups for now (in the bbs, anyway) | 15:33 |
| dingo | just because sqlitedict stores dictionaries naturally | 15:34 |
| dingo | but it would be nice to use underlying sqlite-optimied queries | 15:34 |
| dingo | but then not require sql | 15:35 |
| fenn | are you talking about ORM? | 15:35 |
| dingo | sqlalchemy is probably it, i just hestitate, i met one of the forming authors, mark ramm, who also authored a book on sqlalchemy, and he swears it off as, in retrospect, not such a well-designed concept | 15:35 |
| dingo | yeah, something like ORM and modelling | 15:36 |
| kanzure | sqlalchemy is pretty well designed compared to the other lack of options | 15:37 |
| kanzure | although storm might be better tested overall https://storm.canonical.com/ | 15:38 |
| dingo | yeah i bumped into storm once before in my search, i liked storm from first look | 15:39 |
| dingo | person = store.find(Person, Person.name == u"Tom Thomas").one() | 15:39 |
| dingo | this looks pretty nice | 15:39 |
| kanzure | i doubt that mark was complaining about sqlalchemy's user-facing api | 15:39 |
| dingo | i don't know why i hate raq SQL so much, i don't know what did it to me, i think my only argument is against what i call the "split horizon" development model -- as you grow your software, you have to go back and forth, writing two languages, and modelling your data in two places | 15:40 |
| dingo | hate raw sql, rather | 15:40 |
| dingo | i would very much like to just add a field to a class, and not care about it | 15:41 |
| kanzure | of course. orms have offered this for a while (modulo schema migrations). | 15:41 |
| kanzure | (for which i recommend alembic) | 15:41 |
| kanzure | natural mode of using sqlalchemy is coupling your models to sqlalchemy | 15:42 |
| dingo | yeah, i just haven't had a "I love this!" feeling using any ORM yet, but i haven't tried in a while now, i've been doing NOSQL-like stuff for a while -- if theres any performance/query i want, I just "bake" a pre-prepared lookup table for it | 15:42 |
| kanzure | which is unfortunate for when you have no interest in doing sql querying things | 15:42 |
| dingo | somebody needs to force me to do boring-ass typical business data programming.. i've always been paid to do atypical, either very large scale, or "it all fits in memory", and i been programming to the extremes, not the general purpose | 15:43 |
| kanzure | iirc sqlalchemy does not have a pure-python storage backend. there's sqlite://:memory: but that's still sqlite... | 15:44 |
| fenn | define typical | 15:44 |
| dingo | most of my familiarity with ORM is as an ops guy for when they go wrong and performance takes a shit and i'm unlayering it from the bottom up, and its always beeen unhealthy | 15:44 |
| dingo | typical like all of these examples -- employee tables, sales figures, boring ass business data | 15:44 |
| kanzure | shrug, just spend 5 minutes looking at https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/dev/topics/db/models/ | 15:45 |
| kanzure | you'l get like 80% of what you need | 15:45 |
| fenn | why would anyone write software that's used as an example in a book - it's been done a million times already | 15:45 |
| dingo | i was very impressed with ZODB about 10 years ago, it doesn't scale terribly well -- but I liked a "pure object-oriented database" | 15:45 |
| fenn | OODB's have gone out of fashion though | 15:46 |
| kanzure | fenn: most of these companies are using piles of sqlalchemy/django/activerecord models for their internal business stuff | 15:46 |
| kanzure | i don't know if that's what you're asking though | 15:46 |
| kanzure | argh who writes this crap? "You might have removed all your emotions, but I reckon right down deep in your DNA there's one little spark left. And that's fear." | 15:47 |
| fenn | kirk/spock romance novelists? | 15:48 |
| kanzure | no, i'm trying doctor who this weekend | 15:49 |
| fenn | ugh don't bother | 15:49 |
| dingo | do i gather modelo is attempting to be only a small, lightweight implementation of something like django's orm, without django? if so, i fully support it | 15:49 |
| fenn | i liked Stargate Universe - the main character reminds me of someone | 15:49 |
| kanzure | modelo is a fork of d3vz3r0's hipster | 15:49 |
| dingo | i look at this document and go "yeah this would be fine, I could probably use this... but... i don't want to throw django into the heap, ugh" | 15:50 |
| kanzure | right | 15:50 |
| dingo | yeah i can tell, its very familiar | 15:50 |
| kanzure | mind you, it's a separate implementation | 15:50 |
| dingo | i also have some issues with traits, but, i understand its necessary for an ORM, i just, ugh! | 15:51 |
| kanzure | this is traitlets | 15:51 |
| kanzure | not traits | 15:51 |
| dingo | yeah i noticed, which is nice, real traits is overkill | 15:51 |
| dingo | i see traits as "the un-pythonic @property implementation" | 15:51 |
| kanzure | d4de^^: what was your argument against using sqlalchemy directly? | 15:51 |
| kanzure | hm he's dead | 15:52 |
| dingo | i been off phoenix for a while decompressing, i begin working for d3vz3r0 tomorrow actually | 15:53 |
| kanzure | ah good | 15:53 |
| dingo | theres lots of good improvements (mostly @signalpillar) i should contribute into your modelo if i ever find time | 15:53 |
| kanzure | open up some issues with the rough outlines? | 15:53 |
| kanzure | "the rest is just implementation detail" :p | 15:54 |
| kanzure | on a related note, | 15:57 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/dahlia/awesome-sqlalchemy | 15:58 |
| dingo | anyway if i make the time i'll try to use modelo for storing the messages on my bbs and grow into it, maybe sqlalchemy over sqlite or something, i don't want to re-implement Model, but i want to use something like it | 16:07 |
| dingo | i was just going to hand-code a simple .create and .to_dict and go from there | 16:07 |
| kanzure | sqlalchemy is a thing that sits above sqlite | 16:08 |
| dingo | right | 16:11 |
| kanzure | fenn: so both versions of doctor who are ugh? | 16:22 |
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| fenn | there are like 14 versions | 16:51 |
| fenn | there have been a few interesting ideas in the 50 years it's been on, but that's not a very good record | 16:52 |
| kanzure | hm okay | 16:57 |
| fenn | don't take my word for it, watch some random episode and decide for yourself | 16:58 |
| fenn | you can't really start at the beginning anyway | 16:58 |
| kanzure | s2e5 the girl in the fireplace was okay | 16:58 |
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| fenn | He called it a "thought-provoking piece", and wrote that episodes like this could not be broadcast every week since it "would be too taxing on the average viewer's brain" | 17:04 |
| dingo | Blake's 7 :) | 17:05 |
| dingo | not taxing at all, that one | 17:05 |
| dingo | just stupid silly low-budget sci-fi | 17:05 |
| kanzure | Billy Bob Brumley and Risto M. Hakala. Cache-timing template attacks. In Mitsuru Matsui, editor, Advances in Cryptology ASIACRYPT 2009, volume 5912 of Lecture Notes in Computer Science, pages 667–684. Springer-Verlag, 2009. | 17:09 |
| fenn | "Ultimately, the one force the rebels could not overcome proved to be the BBC's long-standing apathy towards science fiction." | 17:11 |
| dingo | hehe | 17:15 |
| justanotheruser | who is a good vps provider? I like AWS, but not their price | 17:16 |
| dingo | joyent if you like solaris :) | 17:16 |
| justanotheruser | wat | 17:17 |
| dingo | oh looks like they do linux, too | 17:17 |
| justanotheruser | oh ok | 17:17 |
| justanotheruser | wat | 17:17 |
| kanzure | i wonder if bitcoin was easier to explain if bad ideas like this would never be written at all http://jpkoning.blogspot.com/2014/10/fedcoin.html?m=1 | 17:18 |
| justanotheruser | joylent seems to be a soylent producer... | 17:18 |
| kanzure | i was talking with someone the other day that was entirely *offended* by the mere concept that implementation details matter at all | 17:18 |
| dingo | joyent, not joylent :) | 17:19 |
| justanotheruser | oh | 17:19 |
| justanotheruser | ohhhh | 17:19 |
| fenn | this person has no basic understanding of economics | 17:19 |
| kanzure | dreamhost has been doing some cheapo things lately | 17:19 |
| kanzure | fenn: well yes besides that... heh. | 17:19 |
| kanzure | fenn: bad ideas like this are going to continue to get traction "because blockchainz" | 17:20 |
| fenn | also no understanding of bitcoin, apparently. | 17:20 |
| kanzure | double threat | 17:21 |
| dingo | digital ocean is also crap but perhaps cheaper than AWS | 17:21 |
| justanotheruser | dingo: seems to be about 1.5 times the price of AWS | 17:21 |
| kanzure | oops i meant digital ocean not dreamhost | 17:22 |
| kanzure | unfortunately i can't purge things like dreamhost from my memory | 17:22 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk_: i'm sure kjskjskjs would like to hear about memristor stalking stuff | 17:25 |
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| fenn | what's wrong with dreamhost? | 17:26 |
| kanzure | shared hosting went the way of the dinosaur like a decade ago | 17:27 |
| fenn | i thought it was VPS | 17:27 |
| kanzure | perhaps recently? haven't looked | 17:28 |
| jrayhawk_ | kjskjskjs: there's an HP labs memristor guy sitting across a table from me; let me know if I should ask things. | 17:29 |
| fenn | do memristors exist | 17:31 |
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| fenn | oh shit sorry no philosophy | 17:31 |
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| fenn | In 2013, Crossbar introduced an RRAM prototype as a chip about the size of a postage stamp that could store 1 TB of data. In August 2013, the company claimed that large-scale production of their RRAM chips was scheduled for 2015. | 17:35 |
| fenn | is this common knowledge? | 17:35 |
| kanzure | there was a news blitz but the level of reality was unknown | 17:36 |
| kanzure | or not easy to determine | 17:36 |
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| fenn | is there _any_ consumer product incorporating one of the various technologies claimed to be a type of memristor? | 17:37 |
| fenn | something one could actually buy without signing an NDA | 17:38 |
| dingo | i always read articles about the famed memresistor, i remember some big company like samsung saying they made a breakthrough in the past year | 17:40 |
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| heath | 17:19 < kanzure> digital ocean has been doing some cheapo things lately | 17:53 |
| heath | kanzure: example? | 17:53 |
| kanzure | wasn't it a $10/mo droplet? | 17:53 |
| dingo | VPS at $5/mo or something i heard at some point | 17:53 |
| dingo | (probably a sale period) | 17:53 |
| heath | $5/droplet still | 17:53 |
| heath | the default is $10 iirc | 17:53 |
| kanzure | fenn: suppose you wanted to prevent double spending but you also wanted to allow for multiple lightyears of distance of coverage by your anti-replay oracle. how could this be done? | 17:55 |
| kanzure | obviously, you can double spend ahead of time on either end of a light-year-distance-thing simultaneously, and then over a few years it would get resolved, but this is useless for payments because you need relatively quick "confirmations" across most of the nodes. | 17:56 |
| fenn | um, interstellar trade is meaningless without FTL? | 17:57 |
| kanzure | is it? | 17:57 |
| fenn | yes | 17:57 |
| kanzure | okay, so you move a lightyear away. you want your money with you. what's wrong with this concept? | 17:58 |
| fenn | the first part | 17:58 |
| kanzure | let's, for the moment, assume that eventually there will be people separated by great distances. | 17:58 |
| fenn | what does the money represent | 18:01 |
| kanzure | some number in a database | 18:01 |
| kanzure | something approximating a database heh | 18:02 |
| fenn | in a normal economy, money represents some value you've provided for someone | 18:04 |
| fenn | in an interstellar "economy" the value you can provide is limited to pure serialized information | 18:06 |
| fenn | astronomical measurements for example would be useful | 18:06 |
| kanzure | commentary: http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-wizards/2014-10-19.log | 18:09 |
| fenn | it would take a long time to agree on a price for anything | 18:14 |
| fenn | if you just send the product blindly expecting a return it causes trouble | 18:15 |
| kanzure | that may be a non-issue... price is currently negotiated independent of confirmation time anyway. so why would it change? | 18:15 |
| kanzure | oh, for interstellar payments + shipping. hrm. | 18:16 |
| fenn | no shipping, this is an information-only product | 18:16 |
| fenn | (it may be feasible to send nanotech) | 18:17 |
| kanzure | i was thinking of just the case of moving your money with you, not paying anyone in particular. but now i don't know. | 18:17 |
| kanzure | maybe you could make up some proof that you have locked your money in the local lightsphere, and then "unlock" it in the other one. | 18:17 |
| fenn | you could send it to a local escrow agent who tell his partner on alpha centauri to forward alphacoins to your seller | 18:19 |
| kanzure | you could transport data ahead of time in some format where local payments would unlock the data | 18:20 |
| fenn | problem is alpha escrow services gets screwed when the exchange rate changes | 18:20 |
| kanzure | hm so you would route the money around to in-between people | 18:20 |
| fenn | there is no 'ahead of time' | 18:22 |
| fenn | unless you want to haggle over price for decades | 18:22 |
| kanzure | ahead of time as in, your customers don't exist until you send the first data beam, where you don't know if they want to buy any of it anyway, but you send it anyway | 18:22 |
| fenn | ok | 18:23 |
| kanzure | probably not a great use of limited bandwidth but hey | 18:23 |
| fenn | you are back to barter | 18:23 |
| fenn | what could the customer offer in return that would be useful? | 18:23 |
| kanzure | well, in that scenario i described, they coud receive "local" payments at wherever they beamed the information to. they still have the problem of getting any of that money on their end where they originated the signal from. | 18:24 |
| kanzure | surely one of those asshole scifi authors figured this out already, what does orion's arm have to say about this | 18:24 |
| kanzure | http://orionsarm.com/xcms.php?r=oaeg-front | 18:25 |
| fenn | most of those asshole scifi authors just made up some FTL space drive | 18:25 |
| kanzure | those jerks | 18:25 |
| fenn | it's the universe's fault really | 18:25 |
| kanzure | how do you figure that | 18:26 |
| fenn | have you seen the size of our radio transmissions light sphere compared to the milky way? | 18:26 |
| kanzure | diagrams of | 18:26 |
| fenn | http://www.themarysue.com/human-radio-broadcasts/ | 18:26 |
| kanzure | damn it they took the lazy road http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/537285c1964e8 | 18:27 |
| kanzure | "Archaic term for cryptographic currency. Payment by electronic means where the seller is guaranteed payment, but the buyer can remain anonymous. First established in Information Age Old Earth. Analogous transactions are still used in various forms across the Known Net, especially in the Cyberian network. Alternative terms include electronic money, e-cash, cybercash, and CRYP." | 18:27 |
| kanzure | well, okay... but. that's underspecified. | 18:27 |
| kanzure | "In 2038 technology changed the face of commerce yet again. With the development and distribution of comm-gauge wormholes the stars were accessible once more." | 18:29 |
| kanzure | argh :( | 18:29 |
| fenn | well.. that is theoretically possible | 18:29 |
| fenn | it's also basically time travel though | 18:30 |
| kanzure | http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/485a95009288f " You need to have long-lived organisations on both ends, so that the recipient will be there once the trade is done." | 18:30 |
| fenn | kanzure: consider what alien bitcoins might be worth | 18:36 |
| fenn | it's basically an altcoin nobody knows about right? | 18:36 |
| fenn | but you can't even spend it if you wanted to | 18:37 |
| justanotheruser | 20:31 < fenn> oh shit sorry no philosophy | 18:37 |
| justanotheruser | i jest | 18:37 |
| heath | dfdrecommended videos to download for listening on the road tomorrow? | 18:37 |
| heath | s/dfdrecommended/recommended | 18:38 |
| kanzure | heath: if you feel like bitcoin stuff there's letstalkbitcoin but it gets on my nerves pretty fast | 18:39 |
| kanzure | heath: you might be able to convince faceface to tell you which ones are ok | 18:39 |
| fenn | heath: Solve for X - Neal Stephenson on getting big stuff done youtube.com/watch?v=TE0n_5qPmRM | 18:39 |
| kanzure | i could spend it if there is local merchant adoption (also, if spending it/accepting it would be safe from attacks like "really the patron just paid himself on the other side of the galaxy by arranging it before he transacted at my shop") | 18:41 |
| fenn | heath: tim_minchin_storm_atheist_poetry youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U | 18:41 |
| fenn | i'm not much of a podcast person i guess | 18:43 |
| kanzure | looks like orion's arm migrated to a forum from their mailing lists | 18:45 |
| kanzure | http://www.orionsarm.com/forum/ | 18:45 |
| kanzure | and now it's dead | 18:45 |
| heath | fenn: neat, i've watched these before, but couldn't hurt, plus i don't think alex has seen them | 18:45 |
| heath | alternatively, "gerudo valley 10 hours - zelda ocarina of time" might last the entire trip | 18:48 |
| fenn | heh | 18:48 |
| fenn | final fantasy VII soundtrack | 18:48 |
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| heath | kanzure: for btc, i have "Andreas M. Antonopoulos educates Senate of Canada about Bitcoin (Oct 8, ENG)" and "CounterParty and the Asset Revolution with Chris DeRose at Coins in the Kingdom 2014" in the queue | 18:49 |
| kanzure | alright | 18:50 |
| fenn | CCC talks maybe | 18:51 |
| fenn | writing_a_thumbdrive_from_scratch youtube.com/watch?v=ijyAwxH_iok | 18:52 |
| fenn | .title youtube.com/watch?v=qZtkANvDxZA | 18:54 |
| yoleaux | 29C3: Writing a Thumbdrive from Scratch (EN) - YouTube | 18:54 |
| nmz787 | why not just make a bacteria that rather than storing salt in an organelle, precipitates it as some other mineral... something that incorporates CO2 would be a hit | 18:55 |
| fenn | what do you do with the anion | 18:55 |
| fenn | or does it just release carbon tetrachloride into the air | 18:56 |
| nmz787 | find some insoluble precipitate for that too | 18:56 |
| fenn | chlorine gas maybe | 18:57 |
| nmz787 | make some chlorine radical that also purifies the water in addition to desalinating and sequestering carbon | 18:57 |
| fenn | lol ok | 18:57 |
| nmz787 | 1-upping the KFC double-down with a triple-down-bacteria | 18:58 |
| fenn | it just makes tiny pressurized gas cylinders out of diamond | 18:58 |
| nmz787 | :D | 18:58 |
| fenn | also, it uses zero point energy | 18:58 |
| nmz787 | oh come on now! | 18:58 |
| nmz787 | obviously it would be cold fusion. | 19:00 |
| fenn | already discussed that | 19:00 |
| * nmz787 is always late | 19:01 | |
| kanzure | memristor comment in 3.. 2... | 19:02 |
| fenn | perhaps you can help kanzure figure out how to sell bifrost to the antareans | 19:02 |
| nmz787 | coconut seltzer + maple syrup + half-n-half == italian cream soda | 19:02 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: do you think it would be easier to define a synthesis in a lisp like language rather than xml? | 19:04 |
| kanzure | justanotheruser: https://www.transcriptic.com/platform/ | 19:04 |
| fenn | hmm 550 light years is too far. and the reptilians from sirius B are already here. so that leaves not much: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Objects_within_10_ly_of_Earth | 19:05 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: oh wow, thats like exactly what I want | 19:05 |
| nmz787 | is lisp good? | 19:06 |
| justanotheruser | This example costs $2.38 to run | 19:06 |
| nmz787 | this CAD language is based on lisp and I have to learn it | 19:06 |
| nmz787 | ,wik SKILL | 19:06 |
| nmz787 | .wik SKILL | 19:06 |
| yoleaux | "SKILL is a Lisp dialect used as a scripting language and PCell (parameterized cells) description language used in many EDA software suites by Cadence Design Systems (e.g. Cadence Allegro and Cadence Virtuoso). It was originally put forth in an IEEE paper in 1990." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SKILL | 19:06 |
| kanzure | allegro lisp? meh | 19:07 |
| justanotheruser | nmz787: I like its elegance, but it gets tough to read after a while | 19:07 |
| nmz787 | i read Python was based on lisp | 19:07 |
| kanzure | those companies are so backwards and stuck in ancient land | 19:07 |
| kanzure | "boo hoo we can only figure out how to do bindings to one language" | 19:07 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: I wonder if you even know the bulk of it | 19:07 |
| fenn | nmz787: that's like saying english is based on latin | 19:07 |
| kanzure | "what the fuck is an api?" | 19:07 |
| kanzure | "we have a dll but we'll fucking sue you if you use it" | 19:07 |
| nmz787 | their software is so unintuitive | 19:08 |
| nmz787 | fenn: just a fact from the lisp wiki page | 19:08 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: you know if they have any patent on this JSyONthesis? | 19:09 |
| kanzure | nmz787: here you go learn you a lisp http://cs.gmu.edu/~sean/lisp/LispTutorial.html | 19:09 |
| kanzure | justanotheruser: their format is not the most innovative idea in the world at all, if they have a patent it's not defensible | 19:09 |
| kanzure | i also think a more simplified api is possible | 19:10 |
| kanzure | one where you don't have to type out json in python | 19:10 |
| kanzure | what a terrible way to represent a program to control lab equipment... json? wtf | 19:10 |
| fenn | principle of least power, or something | 19:11 |
| nmz787 | hrmm, well, that doesn't sound horrible if it benefits from the structure... but... idk maybe a python program that inherits from some abstract base class so there would be some common i/o methods | 19:12 |
| kanzure | i'm not sure that protocols are really something translatable into json | 19:12 |
| kanzure | often they contain new information and new programs that you have to run in your head and then execute | 19:12 |
| kanzure | otherwise everyone would be perfect at running a protocol the first time (not just human error issues) | 19:13 |
| kanzure | erm, nevermind, i'm conflating too many things (poorly specified protocols, human error, human interpretation, human execution) | 19:13 |
| nmz787 | json could refer to its own prev keys | 19:13 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: is this stuff only used for assays? | 19:14 |
| kanzure | i think they also do molecular cloning and sequencing | 19:14 |
| kanzure | and storage | 19:14 |
| justanotheruser | why can't this be used to replace lab rats entirely? | 19:15 |
| kanzure | lab rats are cheaper than $2/run | 19:16 |
| justanotheruser | orly? | 19:16 |
| kanzure | mightily distorted labor market | 19:16 |
| fenn | no not really, but they were on sale so i bought ten | 19:17 |
| justanotheruser | wait | 19:17 |
| justanotheruser | When I say lab rats I don't mean literal lab rats | 19:17 |
| justanotheruser | I mean grad students | 19:17 |
| kanzure | i know | 19:17 |
| justanotheruser | ok | 19:17 |
| fenn | i know | 19:17 |
| justanotheruser | ok | 19:17 |
| kanzure | they use undergrads too | 19:17 |
| kanzure | those are even cheaper | 19:17 |
| justanotheruser | heh | 19:17 |
| kanzure | and there's an endless flood of those | 19:17 |
| kanzure | no, really | 19:17 |
| justanotheruser | btw, where do you guys buy your literal lab rats? | 19:18 |
| kanzure | postdocs with 15 years of experience go for like $40k/year what do you think a brainless undergrad goes for | 19:18 |
| kanzure | jackson labs | 19:18 |
| justanotheruser | lol | 19:18 |
| justanotheruser | how do you know this | 19:18 |
| kanzure | it is my job to know this | 19:18 |
| justanotheruser | have you actually bought lab rats? | 19:18 |
| kanzure | I AM KNOWER OF THINGS | 19:18 |
| justanotheruser | I guess thats what a consultant does | 19:18 |
| fenn | i still think it'd be cheaper to use transcriptic | 19:19 |
| kanzure | so, jackson labs doesn't sell to non-academic groups | 19:19 |
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| justanotheruser | lolwut | 19:19 |
| justanotheruser | this is crazy | 19:19 |
| nmz787 | justanotheruser: i've looked into buying them when i was using them weekly | 19:19 |
| kanzure | company policy yo | 19:19 |
| fenn | otherwise you're paying some guy $40k/yr to babysit | 19:20 |
| justanotheruser | they categorize the rats by the type of cancer they have | 19:20 |
| kanzure | yes it's cheaper than paying a postdoc but not cheaper than not paying an undergrad | 19:20 |
| nmz787 | justanotheruser: not only cancer, they have rat libraries | 19:20 |
| kanzure | i agree that if undergrads didn't price themselves incorrectly that robots would be cheaper | 19:20 |
| kanzure | i also agree that transcriptic is already cheaper than a number of scenarios... especially extremely repetitive ones. | 19:21 |
| fenn | i'm saying robots are cheaper already but people have a bad sense of cost of ownership | 19:21 |
| justanotheruser | nmz787: you were using them weekly but you weren't buying them? | 19:21 |
| justanotheruser | were you catching them in the wild? | 19:21 |
| kanzure | purchasing department handles that | 19:22 |
| kanzure | universities are just giant corporations in disguise | 19:22 |
| fenn | (i mean cost of ownership of grad students...) maybe it's time for bed | 19:22 |
| nmz787 | justanotheruser: what kanzure said, school handled it | 19:23 |
| justanotheruser | oh | 19:23 |
| justanotheruser | so I need a university for this? | 19:23 |
| nmz787 | i think they were just run-of-the-mill balb-c or something | 19:23 |
| nmz787 | been a while | 19:23 |
| justanotheruser | What if I ship it to mexico? | 19:23 |
| nmz787 | uni works great if you know how to use it to your advantage | 19:23 |
| kanzure | justanotheruser: you have to get really creative without a university | 19:23 |
| fenn | http://www.stockfreeimages.com/p1/rat-library.html | 19:23 |
| nmz787 | justanotheruser: you are in mexico? | 19:23 |
| justanotheruser | nmz787: no, but I'm sure I could find a reshipper there | 19:23 |
| nmz787 | oh, that would probably make things harder | 19:24 |
| nmz787 | leaving the country might relax some things, but importing live animals seems like it'd be harder | 19:24 |
| justanotheruser | Are there any animal cruelty laws for rats? | 19:24 |
| kanzure | On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 9:15 PM, Reason <reason@exratione.com> wrote: | 19:24 |
| kanzure | > I really don't do the in-person thing, I'm sorry to say. | 19:24 |
| nmz787 | not really, they're varmints... but when you raise them things probably change | 19:24 |
| justanotheruser | nmz787: no live animals | 19:25 |
| kanzure | there are usually guidelines for how to handle them | 19:25 |
| kanzure | like, "have guidelines and follow them" | 19:25 |
| justanotheruser | maybe they can ship the rat eggs | 19:25 |
| fenn | yes there are animal cruelty laws for rats and any other vertebrates | 19:25 |
| nmz787 | justanotheruser: not sure what you mean no live animals | 19:25 |
| justanotheruser | nmz787: its tough to import live animals you said | 19:25 |
| justanotheruser | or at least seems it might be | 19:25 |
| nmz787 | fenn: but is that for raising animals or for killing them? | 19:25 |
| nmz787 | err fenn | 19:25 |
| nmz787 | ^ | 19:25 |
| fenn | SAVE THE CUTTLEFISH | 19:25 |
| kanzure | jackson labs isn't the only provider, just the largest and most popular | 19:25 |
| justanotheruser | I see | 19:26 |
| fenn | nmz787: both | 19:26 |
| kanzure | http://jaxmice.jax.org/ | 19:26 |
| nmz787 | justanotheruser: I think it's more like, when you export you have to declare the goods, where you might pay taxes or realize an export restriction (like ITAR) but otherwise it depends on the country of import's laws | 19:27 |
| justanotheruser | I see | 19:27 |
| nmz787 | so the U.S. might not care about animals leaving | 19:27 |
| fenn | why do they have so many images of rats on books | 19:27 |
| nmz787 | and who knows about mexico | 19:27 |
| nmz787 | but the U.S. def cares about animals coming in | 19:27 |
| nmz787 | they care about boats from lakes or rivers being transported across state lines because of mollusks or some boat-side-living organism | 19:28 |
| kanzure | fenn: photographers spend their time taking pics of anything in the hopes that someday someone will type in the right search terms and then pay them to use their images | 19:28 |
| nmz787 | fenn: then maybe I'm thinking that mice don't require special permits, as long as you aren't in violation of the practice laws | 19:29 |
| kanzure | "do you have a permit for that rat?" | 19:30 |
| kanzure | "yes he's registered at the local bar associate" | 19:30 |
| kanzure | thank you i will be here forever | 19:30 |
| fenn | there's not one fifth the number of pictures of cats on books | 19:31 |
| kanzure | try "pussy book" | 19:31 |
| fenn | nmz787: mice and rats can be kept as pets | 19:32 |
| kanzure | too bad about reason | 19:37 |
| kanzure | "Email is more than sufficient should have anything you wanted to run past me and/or discuss." | 19:37 |
| kanzure | wait maybe i pissed him off a few years ago, that might explain it | 19:38 |
| fenn | or maybe he's a hyper-intelligent rat | 19:38 |
| fenn | hence all the life extension experiments on mice | 19:39 |
| kanzure | narf | 19:39 |
| kanzure | i wonder if i could dox him | 19:40 |
| kanzure | like, who the hell else is going to be dedicated enough to sit outside that post office | 19:41 |
| * fenn mumbles something about wardriving for his MAC address | 19:42 | |
| kanzure | how many miles of wardriving would it take? | 19:42 |
| kanzure | hopefully less than all of them | 19:43 |
| fenn | you could narrow it down significantly with a good traceroute | 19:44 |
| kanzure | Received: from mail.exratione.com ([127.0.0.1]) | 19:45 |
| fenn | 127.0.0.1 is in ... this very room! (dramatic noise) | 19:45 |
| fenn | you are tyler durden | 19:46 |
| kanzure | youtube fails me, i can't find a "pinky amazed narf" clip | 19:48 |
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| fenn | "Research published in the March 2013 issue of Cell Stem Cell details the injection of human glial cells into the brains of newborn mice. Upon maturation, the mice were faster learners" | 20:08 |
| * fenn squints | 20:09 | |
| kanzure | glial cells help with some metabolism stuff right? | 20:09 |
| fenn | scaffolding mostly | 20:09 |
| fenn | they also signal via a slow calcium oscillation | 20:11 |
| fenn | ok here's some interesting statements about which i will remain skeptical: | 20:14 |
| fenn | Einstein’s brain was discovered to contain significantly more glia than normal brains in the left angular gyrus, an area thought to be responsible for mathematical processing and language. The ratio of glia to neurons increases with our definition of intelligence. Not only does the ratio of glia to neurons increase through evolution, but so does the size of the glia. Astroglial cells in the | 20:15 |
| fenn | human have a volume 27 times greater than the same cells in the mouse’s brain. | 20:15 |
| nmz787 | huh | 20:22 |
| kanzure | hmm mrna responsible for glial size should be somewhat discoverabe | 20:49 |
| kanzure | discoverable. | 20:49 |
| kanzure | http://www.independent.co.ug/ugandatalks/2014/10/ebola-liberias-president-writes-moving-letter-to-the-world/ | 21:02 |
| kanzure | "Dear word," | 21:02 |
| kanzure | "Dear world," | 21:02 |
| justanotheruser | "Hugs and Kisses, | 21:12 |
| justanotheruser | Ellen Johnson Sirleaf" | 21:12 |
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| kanzure | yes | 21:12 |
| drethelin | do they need us to send them 500 dollras | 21:26 |
| drethelin | to release some funs | 21:26 |
| kanzure | "Dear world, for every one of our people that you do not save, we shall infect 4 of yours." | 21:31 |
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| kanzure | speckter: hi | 21:51 |
| speckter | Hello | 21:52 |
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