| --- Log opened Tue Nov 11 00:00:47 2014 | ||
| delinquentme | FWIW ... instancing VMs on google cloud ... | 00:01 |
|---|---|---|
| delinquentme | im going to say 10x faster than rackspace. | 00:01 |
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| fenn | not synchrotron, just X-ray tomography of creepy crawlies: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJxT8N99HkM | 00:03 |
| fenn | techno remix | 00:03 |
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| fenn | i imagine x-ray tomography/microscopy would work a lot better for chip reverse engineering than laboriously grinding away nanometer by nanometer and putting in and out of SEM chamber | 00:11 |
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| fenn | commercial xradia 3d x-ray microscope/tomography claims to go to <50nm with 16nm voxel size | 00:27 |
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| fenn | nmz787: making x-ray zone plates could be a viable use for your FIB | 00:32 |
| fenn | paperbot: http://spie.org/Publications/Proceedings/Paper/10.1117/12.411652 | 00:34 |
| fenn | .title | 00:34 |
| yoleaux | X-ray zone plate fabrication using a focused ion beam | (2001) | Ilinski | Publications | Spie | 00:34 |
| fenn | ok i am dome rambling about x-ray microscopy now | 00:37 |
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| fenn | wow the R-7 (soyuz) rocket has over 1700 launches | 00:51 |
| fenn | they are still doing film-return reconnaissance satellites! | 00:57 |
| fenn | so much for crypto | 00:58 |
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| fenn | "One of our competitors, Orbital Sciences, has a contract to resupply the International Space Station, and their rocket honestly sounds like the punch line to a joke. It uses Russian rocket engines that were made in the '60s. I don’t mean their design is from the '60s -- I mean they start with engines that were literally made in the '60s and, like, packed away in Siberia somewhere." | 01:17 |
| ebowden | Was it the engines that failed? | 01:18 |
| fenn | considering how much pressure there has been on orbital sciences to develop a replacement motor i find the coincidental failure at this time to be highly dubious | 01:19 |
| fenn | ebowden: yes it's the same engine | 01:19 |
| fenn | it wouldnt take much sabotage to cause the engine to blow up | 01:19 |
| * fenn puts on tin foil hat | 01:19 | |
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| fenn | "They were intended for the ill-fated Soviet N-1 rocket moon shot." | 01:23 |
| fenn | considering the soyuz launchers normally have a 97% success rate, i find the 22% success rate for the moon program (using the same launcher) to be suspicious as well | 01:24 |
| fenn | to be clear, the soyuz uses a different engine | 01:25 |
| ebowden | Are you getting all conspiratorial about the "coincidental failure"? | 01:25 |
| NilsHitze | the .git link on the hpluswiki is wrong - anyone knows the correct one to clone the wiki? | 01:25 |
| ebowden | *Are you getting all conspiratorial about the coincidental failure? | 01:28 |
| ebowden | fenn, ^ | 01:28 |
| fenn | NilsHitze: hum you are right, git clone git://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki does not work, but git clone git+ssh://diyhpl.us/srv/git/diyhpluswiki does | 01:28 |
| fenn | ebowden: yes but it's all in the past and who cares | 01:29 |
| fenn | oh, but for orbital sciences being sabotaged would be a blessing | 01:29 |
| fenn | stock price to the contrary | 01:30 |
| ebowden | "Well, I think that sandy hook was government hoax, but it's all in the past and who cares." | 01:32 |
| fenn | ebowden: i thought you were talking about the soviet failures during the moon race | 01:33 |
| ebowden | *was a government | 01:34 |
| ebowden | Oh, right. | 01:34 |
| ebowden | So you weren't saying you thought that the orbital sciences one was sabotage? | 01:34 |
| NilsHitze | @fenn thx :) | 01:36 |
| fenn | i haven't looked at any evidence, i'm just saying it's suspicious given the timing and the tensions with russia and this engine specifically being called out as an affront to american ideals or whatever | 01:36 |
| fenn | and then it explodes? | 01:36 |
| NilsHitze | why try and error when you can annoy folks on IRC | 01:36 |
| fenn | NilsHitze i'm looking into why the link doesn't work | 01:36 |
| fenn | it used to work | 01:36 |
| NilsHitze | thx - also the certificate for ssh is crap and the register user link doesn't work | 01:38 |
| NilsHitze | tam tam tam | 01:38 |
| NilsHitze | sorry for being a pita | 01:38 |
| fenn | register user has been disabled because "a botnet is nailing this and we may as well drop it for now." | 01:39 |
| NilsHitze | uhhhhh hate it | 01:39 |
| fenn | jrayhawk knows more about this *poke* | 01:44 |
| NilsHitze | btw Hi, my name is Nils, i'm interested in living for another 150 years or more if possible | 01:51 |
| jrayhawk | oh, git urls broke? | 01:51 |
| jrayhawk | wait, what certificate for ssh | 01:51 |
| jrayhawk | what's being certified | 01:51 |
| fenn | secure.diyhpl.us certificate expired | 01:51 |
| jrayhawk | that's https, but okay, i will go nab a new one | 01:52 |
| fenn | NilsHitze: is that what you meant by "certificate for ssh is crap"? | 01:52 |
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| NilsHitze | nah - if you try to register Chrome tells you the certificate expired | 01:58 |
| NilsHitze | which isn't interesting right now because you've told me registration is disabled anyway | 01:58 |
| jrayhawk | still works over ssh | 01:59 |
| jrayhawk | ssh newuser@diyhpl.us | 01:59 |
| NilsHitze | ah thx | 01:59 |
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| jrayhawk | the git url should work better now | 02:10 |
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| jrayhawk | cert stuff is waiting on some manual auditing step from startcom | 02:24 |
| jrayhawk | which i guess i will look into further in the morning | 02:24 |
| jrayhawk | re: "01:38 < NilsHitze> sorry for being a pita" thank you for being a pita | 02:35 |
| fenn | jrayhawk: so what happened to cause the url to break? | 02:38 |
| jrayhawk | someone said "yes" when dpkg offered to overwrite /etc/default/git-daemon on an upgrade | 02:38 |
| fenn | how did you figure that out? :P | 02:39 |
| fenn | i assume there was /etc/...conf.bak | 02:40 |
| jrayhawk | Yeah. The command line arguments were wrong (defaults) and there was an /etc/default/git-daemon.dpkg-old | 02:40 |
| fenn | i guess i don't understand how git:// works | 02:41 |
| jrayhawk | jrayhawk@gnusha:~$ grep ^git /etc/services | 02:43 |
| jrayhawk | git9418/tcp# Git Version Control System | 02:43 |
| jrayhawk | jrayhawk@gnusha:~$ sudo netstat -lpn | grep 9418 | 02:43 |
| jrayhawk | tcp 0 0 0.0.0.0:9418 0.0.0.0:* LISTEN 29708/git-daemon | 02:43 |
| jrayhawk | the protocol is a pretty simple binary protocol | 02:43 |
| fenn | ok i was poking around in apache config thinking it went over http, even though i should have known better | 02:44 |
| jrayhawk | as long as you're dealing with a language than handles binary data reasonably gracefully (i.e. not bash) you can generally write a basic implementation in under an hour | 02:45 |
| fenn | why is git over http such a pain to do right? | 02:46 |
| jrayhawk | there are a lot of operations HTTP doesn't have by default, most notably the only "list directory contents" method is only in DAV | 02:49 |
| jrayhawk | so things like retrieving a list of refs would be out unless DAV or the git-http-backend CGI | 02:50 |
| jrayhawk | are used | 02:50 |
| jrayhawk | or you specially prepare the repository to have a packed refs file and furthermore precomputed lists for commit deltas stored somewhere | 02:51 |
| fenn | i've done that and it tends to break after a while | 02:52 |
| jrayhawk | ayup, you have to keep re-running those | 02:52 |
| jrayhawk | i forget what the command is | 02:53 |
| jrayhawk | 'git update-server-info' apparently | 02:54 |
| jrayhawk | i kinda think it's dumb that the git client doesn't, by default, at least attempt to walk backwards down the commit list and grab objects in the hope that they haven't been packed yet | 02:56 |
| fenn | so when a user pushes to git:// how does the server know they have access to that specific repo? | 02:56 |
| fenn | or pulls for that matter | 02:56 |
| fenn | is it all based on unix groups? | 02:57 |
| jrayhawk | there's no real access control on git://; you can either do authenticated ssl (which is probably still broken in gnutls compiles of curl, which i think is most of them now), or you can think of something elaborate and clever with the update hook. | 02:58 |
| jrayhawk | for diyhpl.us and other piny instances, the gitdaemon user is just unable to read some repositories due to unix permissions. | 02:59 |
| jrayhawk | I don't think I allow writes over git://, but I am told there are no git protocol spammer bots, yet. | 03:01 |
| jrayhawk | so i could if you really wanted | 03:01 |
| fenn | groups gitdaemon | 03:01 |
| fenn | gitdaemon : nogroup | 03:01 |
| fenn | so as long as your repo isnt world-writable you shouldnt be able to push anonymously | 03:02 |
| jrayhawk | joey hess has a wacky update hook for ikiwiki.info that allows anonymous object writes over git:// and ref updates if and only if the updated objects are under doc/ | 03:02 |
| jrayhawk | but the entire point of a wiki is that it's world-writable | 03:03 |
| fenn | yeah i guess | 03:04 |
| fenn | in spirit at least | 03:04 |
| jrayhawk | and literally | 03:04 |
| jrayhawk | jrayhawk@gnusha:~$ stat /srv/git/diyhpluswiki.git/objects/ | 03:04 |
| jrayhawk | Access: (2777/drwxrwsrwx) Uid: ( 1000/ bryan) Gid: ( 1007/git-diyhpluswiki) | 03:04 |
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| fenn | that's only the directory.. is that all you need? | 03:05 |
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| jrayhawk | the objects are immutable | 03:05 |
| jrayhawk | i mean, the files themselves | 03:05 |
| fenn | i have no idea how git keeps track of where HEAD is | 03:06 |
| jrayhawk | that's in refs/ | 03:06 |
| fenn | refs/ is empty | 03:06 |
| jrayhawk | packed-refs is a special efficient-and-or-dumb version of refs/ | 03:07 |
| fenn | so an anonymous user could set HEAD to whatever they want? | 03:10 |
| jrayhawk | no, you don't get direct filesystem access over git, and shell access is, by default, heavily restricted to the same ends. | 03:10 |
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| jrayhawk | you can ask git to update the ref, but there are configurable restrictions such as receive.denynonfastforwards and receive.denydeletes that keep logically destructive ref-update operations from happening. | 03:12 |
| jrayhawk | And, regardless, Ikiwiki maintains a separate checkout and will choke on a non-fastforward merge, so even if a user goes nuts, we still have the refs. | 03:13 |
| jrayhawk | a user with a real shell | 03:13 |
| fenn | attack of the enraged user | 03:14 |
| fenn | do you have a preferred way to visualize/untangle git messes? | 03:15 |
| fenn | i've tried gitk but it seems worse than the basic command line tools | 03:17 |
| jrayhawk | gitk is reasonably nice for seeing what's already happened; i don't have strong opinions on UIs for doing complex merges in the actual untangling process, but there are quite a few of them to choose from. | 03:17 |
| jrayhawk | Presumably you should use whatever merge interface is native to your text editor of choice. | 03:18 |
| jrayhawk | e.g. vimdiff | 03:18 |
| jrayhawk | you can google around for 'mergetool' | 03:20 |
| jrayhawk | and get stuff like http://stackoverflow.com/questions/137102/whats-the-best-visual-merge-tool-for-git | 03:20 |
| fenn | it's usually something like, i am trying to remove a commit from history in my private repo before pushing | 03:21 |
| jrayhawk | oh, yeah, that'll involve cherry picking and/or rebasing | 03:22 |
| jrayhawk | git-filter-branch is also handy | 03:23 |
| jrayhawk | re: packed-refs being efficient-and-or-dumb: efficient in the case of having thousands of refs (or, in the case of libreoffice, hundreds of thousands due to gerrit), dumb in the case of http not, by default, having a way of doing a directory listing | 03:26 |
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| pi_ | re | 03:29 |
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| jrayhawk | like, one read() on an existing filehandle returning 4 to 16kiB saves 69 to 277 loops of getdents()/open()/read()/close() | 03:31 |
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| fenn | yes fetching hundreds of thousands of files over http would be bad | 03:36 |
| fenn | is gerrit a collaborative editor like etherpad? | 03:37 |
| fenn | i don't really see any reason to generate hundreds of thousands of commits | 03:38 |
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| jrayhawk | gerrit stores merges to review as refs (presumably so they don't get garbage collected) | 03:44 |
| jrayhawk | annoyingly, it continues to do this even after the refs have been merged | 03:45 |
| fenn | for some stupid reason i never learned how to use git rebase -i | 03:52 |
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| kanzure | because rebasing is rude to others | 05:49 |
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| NilsHitze | Hey @kanzure | 06:21 |
| fenn | i thought you were supposed to mess around on your own repo, get it to do what you want and test it a little, then go back through and separate out bits of functionality as patches for consideration, and do a pull request | 06:25 |
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| fenn | so upstream doesn't have to sift through piles of "oh forgot to capitalize FooBar" commits | 06:26 |
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| kanzure | in general the rule is that if other people in this world already have your commits, it is usually rude to rebase because it will fuck them over | 06:28 |
| kanzure | if you have never sent your commits out into the world, rebasing is pretty okay | 06:28 |
| fenn | i agree, but it'd also polite to fix up your stuff before publishing them | 06:29 |
| kanzure | i really don't like projects that force all pull requests to be a single commit. fuckers, that's why i made atomic feature-based commits in the first place. | 06:29 |
| fenn | what's "atomic feature-based commits" if not a single commit? | 06:30 |
| kanzure | some features are composed of multiple other features that can be independently reverted | 06:30 |
| fenn | how is it atomic and multiple simultaneously? | 06:30 |
| kanzure | no philosophy | 06:31 |
| kanzure | i'm sure it could be argued that many pull requests that have multiple commits for independently revertable changes could probably be split up into multiple pull requests | 06:32 |
| fenn | meh i can see ways people would abuse either policy | 06:33 |
| fenn | it's probably best not to be perfectionist about revision history | 06:34 |
| kanzure | oh how conenient a religion that doesn't require you to do any work | 06:34 |
| fenn | perfectionism would be something like "all pull requests must be a single commit" | 06:35 |
| fenn | i dunno | 06:35 |
| fenn | i havent written any code in years | 06:35 |
| fenn | there is only one ralph merkle | 06:36 |
| kanzure | *convenient | 06:36 |
| kanzure | still looking for evidence about ralph | 06:37 |
| kanzure | you should write more code | 06:37 |
| fenn | see http://www.computerhistory.org/fellowawards/hall/bios/Ralph,Merkle/ for photo evidence | 06:37 |
| kanzure | they may have just used the other ralph image | 06:38 |
| fenn | you want like a picture of him receiving the turing award? | 06:38 |
| kanzure | i am not sure what would qualify as evidence | 06:38 |
| kanzure | oh there was that thing by hellman that said when he first met ralph that he aspieblabbed about nanotechnology | 06:39 |
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| fenn | but wait, what if a superintelligent time traveller impersonated merkle using nanotechnology | 06:39 |
| fenn | what happened to believing in internet anomalies | 06:40 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: they became an anomalie | 06:41 |
| fenn | if you do the math there are literally millions of geniuses in the world | 06:41 |
| kanzure | "Hellman: I smile when you say Merkle, I mean Merkle is just someone who makes you smile. He’s a comic. He comes and plops down in your office—have you met Ralph?" | 06:42 |
| kanzure | "Hellman: He plops down in your chair and says, ‘Hi!’ I remember, this was after the discovery of public key cryptography, maybe fifteen years ago, he comes into my office and plops down and says, ‘Hi, I’m building a human brain.’ He’s one of the stars in nanotechnology. Building human brains and repairing human brains on dead people so you can bring them back to life some time in the distant future is ... | 06:42 |
| kanzure | ... one of his passions." | 06:42 |
| justanotheruser | if you define genius as being someone in the top few million people on earth in terms of intelligence | 06:42 |
| fenn | it's usually defined as being three standard deviations above the norm; earth just has a large population atm | 06:43 |
| kanzure | genius is just some factor of inertia or momentum or something | 06:43 |
| kanzure | so that hellman quote sounds an awful lot like it's talking about the same ralph merkle to me | 06:44 |
| kanzure | but google says the only place that text shows up on the web is in hplusroadmap logs | 06:44 |
| fenn | huh. who said it? | 06:44 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: unfortunately many of those geniuses don't have the resources to apply themselves | 06:44 |
| superkuh | paperbot, http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs11207-014-0586-7 | 06:45 |
| kanzure | fenn: well, it was me | 06:45 |
| justanotheruser | divide the number of geniuses by 6 and you have the number that can apply themselves | 06:45 |
| kanzure | that sounds like pop psychology crap | 06:45 |
| justanotheruser | and then divide that by maybe 2 and get the number that actually do apply themselves | 06:45 |
| kanzure | "apply themselves" what does that even mean | 06:45 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: It means they use their brain for things other than putting stuff together in a factory or farming land | 06:46 |
| justanotheruser | or aren't too busy as a foot soldier | 06:46 |
| kanzure | "Sometimes I sit here doing nothing, but on the inside my body is full of science and awesome. You nerds know what I mean." | 06:47 |
| kanzure | farmers can still think, yo | 06:47 |
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| justanotheruser | they can think, but they're not going to do much for the world another person with an 80 IQ couldn't | 06:47 |
| fenn | sorry 4 standard deviations (iq 160 w/s.d. 15) | 06:47 |
| justanotheruser | -o only 430k | 06:48 |
| justanotheruser | *so | 06:48 |
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| fenn | ya | 06:52 |
| fenn | still a large number | 06:53 |
| justanotheruser | I wonder what % of -wizards is geniuses | 06:54 |
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| fenn | there's a lot of lurkers in there | 06:54 |
| justanotheruser | true | 06:54 |
| justanotheruser | I wonder what the % of messages in there are written by geniuses | 06:55 |
| fenn | heh | 06:55 |
| justanotheruser | I'd guess ~5-50% | 06:55 |
| justanotheruser | That 45% difference is dependent on whether gmaxwell is 2 std dev or 3+ | 06:56 |
| fenn | why don't you ask and find out | 06:56 |
| justanotheruser | s/2/3/ s/3/4/ | 06:56 |
| justanotheruser | Ask what his IQ is? | 06:56 |
| fenn | he probably has taken an iq test at some point in his life | 06:56 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: what is your IQ? | 06:57 |
| fenn | aw shucks *bats eyelashes* | 06:57 |
| fenn | a genius never tells | 06:57 |
| justanotheruser | is that why you aren't telling? | 06:57 |
| fenn | last time i took an iq test it said 167 | 06:58 |
| justanotheruser | was it a legit IQ test, or an online one? | 06:58 |
| fenn | but they say they aren't really accurate that far out unless you take a special test | 06:58 |
| justanotheruser | oh | 06:58 |
| justanotheruser | well congrats on the large penisIQ | 06:58 |
| fenn | woo | 06:58 |
| fenn | i definitely fall into the "not applying self" category | 06:59 |
| fenn | regardless of scores on tests | 06:59 |
| justanotheruser | I've been convinced that IQ doesn't matter much in terms of your success level, contributions to society and technological/scientific contributions to society | 07:00 |
| fenn | i'm convinced it does matter in terms of your scientific contributions | 07:00 |
| fenn | but yeah a lot of measures of success have more to do with perseverance | 07:01 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: I think you can work hard and have a medium IQ and contribute | 07:01 |
| kanzure | wow, what the fuck is cc-by-nd? https://www.jamendo.com/en/track/1129271/energy | 07:01 |
| kanzure | no-derivatives? wtf | 07:01 |
| yorick | non-disclosure? :D | 07:02 |
| yorick | yeah, no-derivatives | 07:02 |
| kanzure | what's the point | 07:02 |
| kanzure | that breaks everything | 07:02 |
| yorick | https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nd/2.0/ | 07:02 |
| yorick | sharing! | 07:02 |
| yorick | but you can't change anything | 07:02 |
| * justanotheruser changes a random bit | 07:02 | |
| yorick | or like, tar it. | 07:02 |
| justanotheruser | wait, so can I convert it to a lossy format? | 07:03 |
| yorick | that's building upon, isn't it? | 07:03 |
| justanotheruser | I'd consider it a derivative, but no idea what a judge would or has though | 07:03 |
| kanzure | license compatibility matrix -_- https://wiki.creativecommons.org/Frequently_Asked_Questions#When_is_my_use_considered_an_adaptation.3F | 07:03 |
| justanotheruser | *thought | 07:03 |
| justanotheruser | "Note that merely converting material into a different format that is difficult to access or is only available for certain platforms does not violate the restriction; you may do this without violating the license terms. " | 07:04 |
| yorick | oh, if it's uncreative modification you're okay | 07:04 |
| justanotheruser | ok | 07:04 |
| fenn | just make sure to be really uncreative with your trolling then | 07:04 |
| yorick | except when you're synchingmusic in timed relation with a moving image | 07:04 |
| justanotheruser | well I have a program that defines a new format that "loses" information in the way I want and converts it to these new formats thousands of times until it is modified in the way I want it to be modified. | 07:05 |
| justanotheruser | However, it was just a very lossy algorithm and cause certain segments of the song to lose and others not. | 07:06 |
| fenn | is it called "autotune the news" | 07:06 |
| justanotheruser | its called fruityloopholes | 07:06 |
| fenn | kanzure: the merkle/hellman quote appears to be from http://conservancy.umn.edu/bitstream/107353/1/oh375mh.pdf | 07:09 |
| fenn | .title | 07:09 |
| yoleaux | fenn: Sorry, that doesn't appear to be an HTML page. | 07:09 |
| fenn | "an interview with martin hellman" | 07:10 |
| fenn | bbl | 07:11 |
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| kragenjaviersita | 15:02 < kanzure> what's the point | 07:35 |
| kragenjaviersita | 15:02 < kanzure> that breaks everything | 07:35 |
| kragenjaviersita | you can give it to your friends or make a mixtape without breaking the law | 07:35 |
| justanotheruser | kragenjaviersita: you can make a derivative you don't distribute? | 07:37 |
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| kragenjaviersita | justanotheruser: not legally | 07:39 |
| justanotheruser | well if you're ignoring the law then this license discussion is irrelevant | 07:40 |
| kragenjaviersita | no | 07:40 |
| kragenjaviersita | I mean people have a variety of relationships with the law beyond just "ignoring" and "obeying completely" | 07:41 |
| kragenjaviersita | many people only obey the law when it's enforced, for example | 07:41 |
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| justanotheruser | his claim that the license breaks everything meant it breaks everything for people who follow the whole license. It doesn't apply to people who ignore the part of the licencse that breaks everything. | 07:42 |
| kragenjaviersita | you can share https://www.jamendo.com/en/track/1129271/energy via BitTorrent without fear of repercussions | 07:43 |
| kragenjaviersita | you just can't remix it without fear of repercussions | 07:44 |
| kanzure | i'm just surprised that it's a creative commons licensing term | 07:46 |
| kragenjaviersita | creative commons started out with a very broad goal | 07:47 |
| kragenjaviersita | if -ND surprises you, you will probably be shocked by Creative Commons Founders' Copyright, the Creative Commons Sampling License, and the Creative Commons Developing Nations License | 07:48 |
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| kragenjaviersita | https://creativecommons.org/retiredlicenses | 07:51 |
| kanzure | hrm | 07:51 |
| kanzure | what's the point | 07:51 |
| kanzure | how did this happen | 07:51 |
| kragenjaviersita | you may not remembe rthis | 07:52 |
| kragenjaviersita | but at the launch party for Creative Commons | 07:52 |
| kragenjaviersita | Jack Valenti spoke via a video link endorsing it | 07:52 |
| kragenjaviersita | I was blown away by Larry's virtuosity in pulling that off | 07:53 |
| kragenjaviersita | it completely neutralized one of our biggest potential opponents | 07:53 |
| kragenjaviersita | There's been a substantial amount of opposition to CC over the years | 07:54 |
| kragenjaviersita | but it could have been MUCH worse | 07:54 |
| kragenjaviersita | getting Valenti on our side necessitated a very "empowering creators" stance, not a "protecting users' freedoms" stance | 07:56 |
| kragenjaviersita | and it wasn't just an act. it was sincere. | 07:56 |
| kragenjaviersita | so, if empowering creators is your purpose, you naturally want to offer a wide range of choices of license terms, covering the entire spectrum outside of the traditional "keep out!" endpoint | 07:58 |
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| ParahSailin_ | biologist sloppiness as a function of time, pipetting through a 384 well plate http://i.imgur.com/VhNTTZf.png | 08:38 |
| ParahSailin_ | as you can see, as they get towards the right-bottom corner, excited at the prospect of getting to go home, the aerosol effects markedly increase | 08:39 |
| justanotheruser | Okay, so this is a bit of a crazy idea, but I want to mechanically evaluate a round of sha2. Has anyone here done any mechanical computing? | 08:43 |
| kanzure | bug kragenjaviersita | 08:46 |
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| ParahSailin_ | i am a champion abacist | 08:51 |
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| delinquentme | awww yeahhh | 09:01 |
| JayDugger | I'd hold out for a professional dactylonomist. | 09:01 |
| delinquentme | sunnyvalé | 09:01 |
| JayDugger | Simultaneously mechanical and digital. | 09:02 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, on that developernomics. | 09:04 |
| delinquentme | SO sure. crypto currency is blooming | 09:04 |
| delinquentme | but do we think the USD will tank? | 09:04 |
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| kanzure | delinquentme: http://nakamotoinstitute.org/mempool/speculative-attack/ | 09:09 |
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| delinquentme | Forced, as in "compelled by economic reality" | 09:09 |
| delinquentme | this sounds right | 09:09 |
| delinquentme | I think theres some subtlety to the long term investing in software devs as using a product down the road | 09:10 |
| delinquentme | also this is really REALLY good https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRl6Xc209L8&list=PLcghjaDFUHglje0wiMUDMTrUV6z5wGGQq&index=57 | 09:10 |
| kanzure | .title | 09:24 |
| yoleaux | Electro - Hatty Keane - No One Loves You (Kairo Kingdom Remix) - YouTube | 09:24 |
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| nmz787_i1 | this might be interesting to read: | 09:59 |
| nmz787_i1 | .wik The Soul of a New Machine | 09:59 |
| yoleaux | "The Soul of a New Machine is a non-fiction book written by Tracy Kidder and published in 1981. It chronicles the experiences of a computer engineering team racing to design a next-generation computer at a blistering pace under tremendous pressure. The machine was launched in 1980 as the Data General Eclipse MV/8000." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Soul_of_a_New_Machine | 09:59 |
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| nmz787_i1 | which leads to: | 10:01 |
| nmz787_i1 | .wik Mushroom management | 10:01 |
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| yoleaux | "Mushroom management, also known as Pseudo-Analysis or Blind Development, is a term used to mockingly refer to a way of running a company where the communication channels between the managers and the employees do not work properly." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushroom_management | 10:01 |
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| paperlooker | paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S000398611300307X | 10:12 |
| heath | this is neat | 10:12 |
| heath | http://www.otonomos.com/ | 10:13 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/%0A%20Enzymology%20of%20the%20carotenoid%20cleavage%20dioxygenases%3A%20Reaction%20mechanisms%2C%20inhibition%20and%20biochemical%20roles%0A%20.pdf | 10:13 |
| heath | create a non US based company in minutes :) | 10:13 |
| heath | s/minutes/hours | 10:13 |
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| justanotheruser | kragenjaviersita: hello? | 10:49 |
| streety | heath: interesting, is $300 standard for a US company? | 10:57 |
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| heath | streety: i think they focus strictly on creating non-US based companies | 11:12 |
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| heath | streety: about 6 years ago, i paid something like $500 to start a company | 11:13 |
| streety | From a quick search it seems like the actual filing costs are lower but with add on services that $300-500 range seems common | 11:14 |
| streety | It's interesting how cheap the UK fee is | 11:15 |
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| kragenjaviersita | justanotheruser: hello? | 12:10 |
| kragenjaviersita | I haven't done any mechanical computing. | 12:11 |
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| kanzure | nice denial | 12:13 |
| fenn | we all know about your babbage fetish | 12:18 |
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| nmz787_i1 | 'the babage-patch kids' -- latest Nick Jr. t.v. show in an alternate universe | 12:45 |
| chris_99 | haha | 12:45 |
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| heath | who needs s-expressions, http://dogeon.org/ | 12:50 |
| fenn | yo doge i heard u like doges so i made an s-expression of doges? | 12:51 |
| heath | it's taking on json instead of s-expressions, so maybe that was misleading | 12:52 |
| fenn | EBNF is a totally different thing, ya | 12:53 |
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| heath | yeah | 13:06 |
| heath | related, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_data_serialization_formats | 13:07 |
| heath | neat: http://bfxdata.com/combined/btc.php charting swaps on bitfinex | 13:09 |
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| nmz787_i1 | few android apps, they just won $50k from Intel or someone http://lab4u.cl/lets-experiment/ | 14:13 |
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| nmz787_i1 | http://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/computing/hardware/bendable-sound-waves-can-skirt-objects-trap-particles | 15:17 |
| nmz787_i1 | paperbot: http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/140703/ncomms5316/full/ncomms5316.html#discussion | 15:17 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2Fncomms5316 | 15:17 |
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| fenn | real life tractor beam | 15:38 |
| fenn | oh this is something else | 15:39 |
| fenn | weird stuff man | 15:40 |
| nmz787_i1 | if camels are ungulates, and camel-case naming exists... what would ungulate-case naming look like? | 15:41 |
| nmz787_i1 | it would have to be a superset, so just normal lower-case? | 15:41 |
| delinquentme | cool. google just gave me 1k cores | 15:42 |
| delinquentme | erm. 1k cpus. and 10 petabytes of persistent storage | 15:42 |
| nmz787_i1 | how many minutes of using the cores though? | 15:42 |
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| delinquentme | i've got $800 in the account | 15:43 |
| delinquentme | and its .0042 /10min per CPU | 15:44 |
| delinquentme | and its $0.0042 /10min per CPU | 15:44 |
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| fenn | .wik ungulate | 15:44 |
| yoleaux | "Ungulates (pronounced /ˈʌŋɡjʊleɪts/) are a diverse group of large mammals that includes horses, cattle, pigs, giraffes, camels, deer, hippopotamuses, whales and dolphins. Most of them use the tips of their toes, usually hoofed, to sustain their whole body weight while moving. The term means, roughly, "being hoofed" or "hoofed animal"." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ungulate | 15:44 |
| fenn | dolphins | 15:45 |
| fenn | bwaaaaa | 15:45 |
| kanzure | andytoshi: igem is a competition of schools doing synthetic biology/genetic engineering things http://igem.org/Main_Page | 15:45 |
| andytoshi | oh, cool | 15:45 |
| kanzure | sort of | 15:45 |
| kanzure | here are some particularly interesting igem projects i like http://diyhpl.us/wiki/dna/projects | 15:46 |
| andytoshi | so many things to read :) | 15:46 |
| andytoshi | i've got 600 tabs open because the tx legislature came into session | 15:46 |
| fenn | igem is like a hackathon where people propose lots of cool ideas and then don't know how to finish them in the 2 days you get to work on it | 15:46 |
| andytoshi | and my brain is fuzzing over for the day | 15:46 |
| nmz787_i1 | hah | 15:46 |
| nmz787_i1 | damn | 15:46 |
| nmz787_i1 | that surpasses my max tab count ever for sure | 15:47 |
| andytoshi | hmm, i'm not sure how to count them | 15:47 |
| kanzure | "many" is the current counting unit | 15:47 |
| andytoshi | i don't have 600 open right now, but i've gone through 600 for the day bc that's how many mails i got | 15:47 |
| kanzure | *correct counting | 15:47 |
| fenn | andytoshi: are you a legal eagle? or an illegal eagle? | 15:48 |
| nmz787_i1 | or a beagle | 15:48 |
| andytoshi | fenn: legal while i'm in the US :) these feds scare me | 15:48 |
| andytoshi | i just like to keep an eye on the legislature | 15:48 |
| nmz787_i1 | giraffe-case. must be preceeded by 50 underscores | 15:49 |
| fenn | dolphin-case. contains random cl!icks and p.ops | 15:50 |
| nmz787_i1 | :) | 15:50 |
| kanzure | nutcase. nuff said. | 15:51 |
| kanzure | igem needs to enforce nasa technical readyness indicators on all of the web pages or projects | 15:52 |
| kanzure | technical readiness levels, i mean | 15:52 |
| kanzure | http://esto.nasa.gov/files/trl_definitions.pdf | 15:52 |
| kanzure | technology readiness levels | 15:52 |
| kanzure | man i am a bad nerd | 15:52 |
| fenn | i like imagining that this is the same person http://andytoshi.tumblr.com/ | 15:55 |
| fenn | evil crypto hacker with a j-pop crush | 15:55 |
| kanzure | you want https://www.wpsoftware.net/projects/ and https://www.wpsoftware.net/andrew/ | 15:56 |
| nmz787_i1 | hmm, how does a polish-sounding last name get transformed to a japanese sounding name on IRC | 15:58 |
| andytoshi | nmz787_i1: it was a joke based on an american tv show | 15:58 |
| andytoshi | (and my name is dutch fwiw) | 15:58 |
| fenn | i figured it was some general purpose pseudonymous name suffix | 15:59 |
| andytoshi | nmz787_i1: actually it was a bad joke .. on the bitcoin episode of "the good wife" in jan 2011(?) they changed satoshi's name to "mr bitcoin" we guess because satoshi was too foreign sounding, so on #bitcoin we all added toshi to our names | 16:00 |
| andytoshi | and i just kept mine for years | 16:00 |
| nmz787_i1 | ah | 16:01 |
| nmz787_i1 | cool | 16:01 |
| nmz787_i1 | all internet-based moving-images are 'american'? | 16:01 |
| nmz787_i1 | blah | 16:02 |
| fenn | dude, the internet is american | 16:02 |
| nmz787_i1 | yup | 16:02 |
| nmz787_i1 | al gore all the way | 16:02 |
| nmz787_i1 | back in 1969, right kanzure | 16:02 |
| fenn | inventing the internetters since 1969 | 16:02 |
| fenn | i have a file somewhere of all the awesome stuff that seemingly randomly happened in 1969 | 16:03 |
| nmz787_i1 | must have been lots of random stuff happening back then | 16:05 |
| kanzure | sure, random | 16:06 |
| fenn | kanzure did you type in all those igem links by hand? | 16:06 |
| kanzure | yeah | 16:07 |
| kanzure | someone has to look at this stuff | 16:07 |
| kanzure | i was just bookmarking some of them. now that i have a functional bookmarking system and stuff. | 16:08 |
| kanzure | heh the count is 1968 at the moment | 16:09 |
| fenn | time traveling machine elves from the singularity, man | 16:09 |
| kanzure | gnomes. elves are festive, gnomes don't have to be. | 16:10 |
| fenn | gnomes are trademarked | 16:10 |
| fenn | .wik machine elves | 16:10 |
| yoleaux | "Terence Kemp McKenna (November 16, 1946 – April 3, 2000) was an American philosopher, psychonaut, ethnobotanist, lecturer, and author." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_elves | 16:10 |
| delinquentme | reall like this regex tool http://www.regexr.com/ | 16:10 |
| nmz787_i1 | delinquentme: more than regex101.com ? | 16:11 |
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| delinquentme | Values must match the following regular expression: '[a-z](?:[-a-z0-9]{0,61}[a-z0-9])?' | 16:14 |
| delinquentme | trying to match black-00 black-01 black-02 ... black-nn | 16:15 |
| delinquentme | seems like black-[0-9]{2} hsould do it ... | 16:15 |
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| fenn | is it a game? | 16:17 |
| fenn | match the regex before the machine elves get you | 16:17 |
| kanzure | yes it's called "complete delinquentme's job interview" | 16:17 |
| fenn | same thing | 16:18 |
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| fenn | ok delinquentme write the regex for a URL | 16:18 |
| fenn | only valid URLs no hufflepuff | 16:19 |
| fenn | also there are now unicode top level domains | 16:19 |
| fenn | i thought for sure we'd get ipv6 first | 16:20 |
| jrayhawk | we got ipv6 an eternity ago | 16:20 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, nice try | 16:20 |
| kanzure | i guessed | 16:20 |
| delinquentme | " write a regex that matches things you want in this format " .. never seen this before | 16:21 |
| jrayhawk | http://www.ex-parrot.com/pdw/Mail-RFC822-Address.html also nothing beats Mail::RFC822:Address | 16:21 |
| delinquentme | you guys will like the fact that a number of the servers were named hubris | 16:22 |
| delinquentme | 50 of them | 16:22 |
| fenn | you can have comments in email addresses? | 16:22 |
| jrayhawk | you can also have different inline character encodings in email addresses | 16:22 |
| jrayhawk | domain literals are also a little-known feature | 16:25 |
| fenn | Domain-literals which refer to domains within the ARPA Internet specify 32-bit Internet addresses, in four 8-bit fields noted in decimal,... For example: [10.0.3.19] | 16:27 |
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| fenn | To: fenn@[127.0.0.1] it works! | 16:28 |
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| Boscop | any channels about NIBS (tDCS, TMS, etc)? | 16:30 |
| kanzure | you're in it | 16:30 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, you're such a bastard | 16:30 |
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| delinquentme | now Im like actually learning regex | 16:31 |
| delinquentme | this is where psychology / pride goes awry | 16:31 |
| fenn | probably the most useful thing you've ever learned | 16:32 |
| fenn | except for the five hundred ways to kill a man | 16:33 |
| kanzure | .title https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4906 | 16:33 |
| yoleaux | Issue#1643: Coinselection prunes extraneous inputs from ApproximateBestSubset by AlSzacrel · Pull Request #4906 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub | 16:33 |
| jrayhawk | huh, the regex for IRIs is about as bad as the one for emails | 16:36 |
| jrayhawk | http://www.omgwallhack.org/home/jrayhawk/tmp/rfc3987-pcre.txt | 16:38 |
| jrayhawk | i guess parsing ip addresses is pretty hard, what else is in there? | 16:39 |
| fenn | is there an RFC for RFC format? | 16:39 |
| jrayhawk | http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc-editor/instructions2authors.txt | 16:40 |
| jrayhawk | http://www.rfc-editor.org/formatting.html | 16:40 |
| fenn | i was looking at https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5385.txt | 16:40 |
| fenn | https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc2629.txt is even worse tho | 16:41 |
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| fenn | it would be cool to have a game like those typing games where you have to type the words before they fall to the bottom of the screen, but there's so many you have to use regexes to possibly get them all | 16:50 |
| fenn | and also they pile up on top so thick you can't actually read all the characters | 16:51 |
| kanzure | wouldn't that just be lots of or statements | 16:52 |
| kanzure | https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=edu.swarthmore.cs.cs71.regexreptiles&hl=en | 16:52 |
| fenn | well there would be "good" blorbs that you have to work around | 16:52 |
| fenn | like the stupid hostage in those first person shooter arcade games | 16:53 |
| kanzure | https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.ilit.regexxword&hl=en | 16:53 |
| kanzure | "Inspired by the MIT 2013 Mystery Hunt, this is the geek version of Sudoku-meet-crossword. Each clue on the grid represents a regular expression. The row of cells it points to must match this expression exactly." | 16:53 |
| fenn | the snakes just make it harder to read the letters | 16:54 |
| kanzure | yes | 16:54 |
| fenn | Boscop: tDCS works by signalling glial cells to increase nutrient/waste circulation via calcium ion flows, yes/no/maybe? | 17:00 |
| Boscop | i only know that it increases the frequency of spontaneous neuron firings | 17:02 |
| fenn | we can actualy answer these questions by chopping up mice | 17:02 |
| Boscop | fenn: how much voltage should i use with tDCS? | 17:02 |
| fenn | if you're asking that, you shouldn't be | 17:02 |
| Boscop | fenn: i couldn't find much info about voltage, only current | 17:03 |
| fenn | because skull thickness is variable | 17:03 |
| fenn | V=IR in this equation your skull is the R | 17:04 |
| fenn | and your skin and other electrical components like resistors | 17:05 |
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| fenn | basically you should use a voltage that's safe even when your electronics malfunction | 17:05 |
| fenn | also you should use passive electronics that can't malfunction | 17:05 |
| fenn | also if you need to ask this question you shouldn't be building your own device from scratch | 17:06 |
| fenn | most devices use a circuit that self-tunes its resistance to give a particular current, regardless of the resistance in series with it | 17:07 |
| fenn | (yeah i know this isn't really how BJTs work) | 17:08 |
| nmz787_i | hrmm, there must be a good joke about 'your skull makes a better resistor than a [insert funniness]' | 17:08 |
| fenn | ungulate | 17:11 |
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| * fenn snores self to death | 17:13 | |
| kragenjaviersita | night | 17:13 |
| maaku | is AGI on topic for here? | 17:15 |
| nmz787_i | .wik agi | 17:15 |
| yoleaux | "AGI may refer to:" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agi | 17:15 |
| maaku | artificial general intelligence | 17:16 |
| nmz787_i | probably | 17:16 |
| nmz787_i | we talk about getting uploaded | 17:16 |
| nmz787_i | somehow, someday | 17:16 |
| maaku | i'm very meh on uploading | 17:19 |
| maaku | I'd rather see the other side of the singularity, thank you | 17:19 |
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| nmz787_i | as long as the machinery is/seems as good/better than a human body, I think I'd be OK, or maybe not even notice | 17:23 |
| kanzure | maaku: more this side of agi http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/brain-emulation-roadmap-report.pdf | 17:34 |
| kanzure | so far the brain is the only thing that we know that does this | 17:34 |
| kanzure | although pasky and fenn are more agi non-brain interested | 17:34 |
| kanzure | the problem with ai is that most ai discussions go nowhere | 17:34 |
| pasky | ah, right | 17:35 |
| pasky | I really liked yesterday's Hinton's AMA | 17:35 |
| pasky | he seemed like really having the right ideas about taking inspiration from the brain, but not get lost in the details | 17:35 |
| pasky | (I know, we had this argument about whether "details" matter before :) | 17:36 |
| maaku | kanzure: i'm very much non-brain interested | 17:37 |
| maaku | WBE is too far away | 17:37 |
| kanzure | how do you figure? | 17:37 |
| kanzure | like, how much data have you looked at regarding the current biologically-accurate neuron simulators etc? | 17:38 |
| maaku | well assuming moore's law, we're talking late 2030's, 2040's for WBE | 17:38 |
| kanzure | and is the timeline your main objection? | 17:38 |
| kanzure | maaku: wei dai used to write emails on the subject of cryptography, cryptocurrency and brain emulation/simulations | 17:38 |
| kanzure | this is a fun thing to read and watch http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/markram-2006/ | 17:38 |
| kanzure | and regarding timeline of whole-brain emulation and other singularity events you might be interested in http://theuncertainfuture.com/ufHelp/GoryMath.html http://theuncertainfuture.com/ | 17:39 |
| kanzure | paper re: those last two links, http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/futurism/Changing%20the%20frame%20of%20AI%20futurism:%20From%20storytelling%20to%20heavy-tailed,%20high-dimensional%20probability%20distributions.pdf | 17:39 |
| maaku | whereas de novo agi could be as close as 5 years away | 17:39 |
| kanzure | er, i mean, he was using cryptography as a tool to protect simulations | 17:40 |
| kanzure | er, i guess i am still being too vague | 17:40 |
| maaku | and yes timeline is a chief objection | 17:40 |
| maaku | but i'm also interested in problems humans are notoriously bad at | 17:40 |
| kanzure | wei dai cryptography and ai/whatever simulations http://extropians.weidai.com/extropians.3Q97/4356.html | 17:40 |
| maaku | yeah wei dai seems to have been subsumed into the MIRI any-practical-work-will-destroy-the-world meme :( | 17:41 |
| kanzure | oh, i hadn't noticed that. i mean, i agree that he mentally hangs out with that crowd. | 17:41 |
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| maaku | my interest is chiefly transhumanism, nanotechnology, space exploration, etc. which i gather to be mostly on topic here | 17:43 |
| kanzure | right | 17:43 |
| kanzure | this channel was originally about strategic engineering coordination for those types of projects | 17:43 |
| kanzure | but it turns out that it is hard for me to shame others into doing meaningful work | 17:43 |
| maaku | but some years ago I did my own weak inside view analysis and determined that AGI was the fastest path | 17:43 |
| maaku | to enabling all three | 17:44 |
| kanzure | there's a lot broken in the world of agi research | 17:44 |
| maaku | so, e.g., my current hobby activities involve constructing an AGI capable of answering queries like "build me a nanofactory (a la freitas, merkle) starting with existing tools" | 17:45 |
| kanzure | most of the time i find myself reading crazy theories of mind that reflect more on the author than anything that might actually work | 17:45 |
| maaku | kanzure: right, unfortunately :( | 17:45 |
| kanzure | any approach should not depend on the author having a good theory of mind, since it seems obvious that everyone is fucking bad at that particular route | 17:46 |
| kanzure | re: starting with existing tools... so we were working on this bootstrapping open-source hardware package system for a while. (the incentives were all wrong and broken though.) | 17:46 |
| maaku | yeah definitely | 17:46 |
| kanzure | http://gnusha.org/skdb/ | 17:46 |
| kanzure | you can imagine at least in theory some method of engineering planning based on "installed machines" | 17:47 |
| kanzure | (or packages) | 17:47 |
| kanzure | there's lots of dependency graph stuff that has to happen to get to "build me a nanofactory" from "existing tools" | 17:49 |
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| kanzure | technology is weird because the definition of "existing" really varies... if one research lab in the world has some implementation, does that mean it exists? doesn't seem to in any practical way for the purposes of serving as a step in a 100-step project. | 17:49 |
| kanzure | i should really be rewriting SelectCoins right now heh | 17:50 |
| kanzure | on the nanofactory side you may be interested in http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/nanotech/ https://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer | 17:52 |
| maaku | kanzure: right that's why I say 5+ years, not tomorrow ;) | 18:00 |
| maaku | but for example what I'm working on is the language for representing both existing and requested capability | 18:00 |
| maaku | but in terms of the actual AGI tech, I hold the contrary opinion that this is a mostly solved problem in theory | 18:01 |
| maaku | at least for a problem of this scale | 18:01 |
| kanzure | dependency graph analysis stuff and generative grammar stuff is totally solved, but that's not the hard part there | 18:01 |
| kanzure | the problem of "existing and requested capability" verges on both philosophy but also very nuanced engineering.. where does the data come from? | 18:01 |
| kanzure | or even s/data/knowledge | 18:02 |
| maaku | kanzure: you have to approximate at a certain level. but for example the ability to do stochastic chemistry by traditional means, e.g. for vapor deposition | 18:03 |
| maaku | and representing an AFM tip as an unknown, deformable shape | 18:04 |
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| kanzure | well what are you proposing for the representation/approximation | 18:04 |
| kanzure | i mean, you can approximate anything if your resolution is extremely bad :) | 18:04 |
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| maaku | it's a datalog-derived (Dyna actually) language with strong typing and a notion of causality | 18:05 |
| kanzure | .to fenn you are bad at picking okay times to sleep | 18:05 |
| yoleaux | kanzure: I'll pass your message to fenn. | 18:05 |
| delinquentme | OK sooooo the conclusion of the regex excercise was that the given regex was only to match strings | 18:05 |
| kanzure | dynamol? | 18:05 |
| kanzure | or is it modelica | 18:05 |
| delinquentme | and the confusion arose when I thought I could send regexes to select instance names | 18:05 |
| delinquentme | this isnt the case. | 18:05 |
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| bbrittain | yo | 18:06 |
| bbrittain | long time no be here | 18:06 |
| kanzure | hello bbrittain have you created grey goo yet | 18:06 |
| maaku | kanzure: http://www.cs.jhu.edu/~jason/papers/eisner.nipsw08.pdf | 18:06 |
| bbrittain | not yet, not yet | 18:06 |
| bbrittain | just been furthering my disdain for the traditional biologist | 18:07 |
| kanzure | er, did you start at the job? | 18:07 |
| bbrittain | ja, been there for about 2 months now | 18:07 |
| bbrittain | I like most everyone | 18:07 |
| bbrittain | and they are way more enlightened than most bio people | 18:07 |
| kanzure | maaku: my former advisor had a slightly different approach to things, http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/campbell/The%20A-Design%20approach%20to%20managing%20automated%20design%20synthesis.pdf | 18:08 |
| bbrittain | but you still get weird sorta "post-doc"-syndrome shit from them sometimes | 18:08 |
| kanzure | that's to be expected i think | 18:08 |
| bbrittain | tk's been tutoring me in bio, which has been awesome | 18:08 |
| kanzure | does he still hat eme | 18:09 |
| kanzure | *hate me | 18:09 |
| bbrittain | no mention, I can drop your name though | 18:09 |
| kanzure | nah whatever | 18:09 |
| bbrittain | he hates... a lot of people | 18:09 |
| kanzure | hehe | 18:09 |
| kanzure | good | 18:09 |
| maaku | kanzure: yeah automated design is really what i'm trying to do | 18:09 |
| bbrittain | kurzweil? zomg. he will go on about "that asshole" | 18:09 |
| kanzure | maaku: so i jumped ship from that lab, but genehacker (who shows up here from time to time) is still with him and moved on to molecular nanotechnology things | 18:10 |
| maaku | the AGI part just comes from the fact that it is faster (in my analysis) to have the computer teach itself to design | 18:10 |
| kanzure | bbrittain: kurzweil is totally an asshole | 18:10 |
| bbrittain | truth | 18:10 |
| maaku | i'll look out for genehacker, thanks | 18:10 |
| kanzure | maaku: so again i think the problem is the design knowledge there... i mean.. random data is not useful as a starting point. | 18:10 |
| bbrittain | but, rarely do you here that from someone who went to school with him | 18:10 |
| kanzure | when's the last time you actually saw any of his ocr software or his midi synthesizer software anyway. meh. | 18:11 |
| kanzure | s/midi/keyboard | 18:11 |
| maaku | kanzure: well in testing i plan on solving problems in my engineering textbooks | 18:11 |
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| maaku | molecular nanotech is more the end goal, not a good place to start :) | 18:11 |
| bbrittain | maaku: dream big | 18:11 |
| kanzure | genehacker: maaku has a strong interest in molecular nanotechnology and automated design. he wants to go down an ai route. | 18:12 |
| genehacker | an ai route for what? | 18:12 |
| * bbrittain just wants to work with mesoplasma florum | 18:12 | |
| kanzure | automated engineering | 18:12 |
| kanzure | like "figure out how to build me a nanofactory" and "figure out how to build me a 200,000-part space station. on jupiter." | 18:12 |
| maaku | genehacker: automated design/engineering capible of "design me a nanofactory and instructions for building starting from present capability" | 18:13 |
| bbrittain | 0_o | 18:13 |
| kanzure | "build me a dyson sphere starting from this dirt in my pocket" | 18:13 |
| maaku | yup! | 18:13 |
| kanzure | "and my belly button lint" | 18:13 |
| genehacker | we aren't there yet | 18:13 |
| kanzure | oh i didn't mean to imply he's waiting for it, he wants to implement it | 18:14 |
| bbrittain | uhhh | 18:14 |
| kanzure | bbrittain: you stumbled into a different conversation heh | 18:14 |
| kanzure | bbrittain: in case context is not obvious... | 18:14 |
| bbrittain | I got that | 18:14 |
| genehacker | simulating nanosystems is really hard | 18:14 |
| maaku | genehacker: right, i know. one of the instrumental goals would be, e.g. build better molecular dynamic simulators | 18:15 |
| kanzure | maaku: so i think the actual route planning stuff is not hard, in fact i would even say it's trivial in this context | 18:15 |
| genehacker | route planning? no that's very hard | 18:16 |
| kanzure | maaku: so all of your attention should be focused on the other problems, like knowledge representation or how to get all that information available for the planning algorithms | 18:16 |
| kanzure | route planning like path planning through a graph | 18:16 |
| kanzure | e.g. graph search | 18:16 |
| kanzure | sorry, i forgot that route planning means something else too | 18:16 |
| maaku | the branching factor when you generalize makes it uncomputable very fast, which i assume is what genehacker is getting at | 18:16 |
| genehacker | so how do you do that for molecular design? | 18:17 |
| genehacker | *not molecular design, I mean for designing a molecular assembler | 18:17 |
| bbrittain | so, a bunch of people from de shaw recently came to work. They are building custom computers to individually simulate molecules to find binding locations. I think we might be several orders of magnitude off this sorta level of even computational power, much less algos | 18:17 |
| bbrittain | maaku: ^ | 18:17 |
| kanzure | tallakahath: see bbrittain's comment | 18:17 |
| kanzure | oh tallakahath is not around. boo. | 18:17 |
| genehacker | what do you mean by binding locations? | 18:18 |
| maaku | hierarchical planning. ive got the basis of a design from some work my uncle did on hierarchical go programs in the 80's | 18:18 |
| kanzure | (tallakahath does ab initio chemistry simulation stuff as a day job) | 18:18 |
| genehacker | oh drug design | 18:18 |
| genehacker | what really? | 18:18 |
| bbrittain | ja, it was some cool shit | 18:18 |
| genehacker | I've been meaning to talk to someone who does that | 18:18 |
| bbrittain | looking for temporal non-traditional binding sites | 18:18 |
| genehacker | wonder if anyone here know about de novo design | 18:19 |
| kanzure | i know some rational protein design stuff because of my obsession with polymerase | 18:19 |
| kanzure | not quite de novo | 18:19 |
| bbrittain | uhh.. I've been trying to learn about that stuff :P | 18:20 |
| bbrittain | polymerase is the shit. | 18:20 |
| bbrittain | but really coolest enzyme is cas9 | 18:20 |
| maaku | bbrittain: designing mechanical nano stuff is actually far easier than drug analysis. the mechanical stuff you can constrain to be chemically and structually stable structures, resulting in easier molecular dynamics simulations | 18:20 |
| kanzure | bbrittain: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/polymerase | 18:20 |
| kanzure | bbrittain: especially these things http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/polymerase/Light-dependent%20RNA%20polymerase%20-%20proposal%20-%20Tom%20Hargreaves.pdf | 18:21 |
| genehacker | but mechanically constrained stuff is hard to synthesize | 18:21 |
| bbrittain | kanzure: really, more than anything over the last couple months if I've learned I wasted three years studying CS. like... systems bio/chem is so much cooler | 18:21 |
| bbrittain | but really only if you look at it a particular way... | 18:21 |
| kanzure | you were already good at comp sci stuff weren't you? so why were you schooling for that.. | 18:22 |
| bbrittain | 'cause I was stupid | 18:22 |
| kanzure | k | 18:22 |
| bbrittain | I mean, I learned a bunch of type theory stuff and ML stuff I never would have... but damn if I could go back | 18:22 |
| maaku | genehacker: you read the technology roadmap for prod. nanosys (http://www.foresight.org/roadmaps/) or freitas, merkle's minimal toolset (http://www.molecularassembler.com/Papers/MinToolset.pdf) ? | 18:22 |
| kanzure | haha | 18:22 |
| kanzure | genehacker has those memorized by heart | 18:23 |
| genehacker | well not quite | 18:23 |
| kanzure | don't be modest | 18:23 |
| genehacker | but making tool tips is very difficult | 18:23 |
| genehacker | you cannot synthesize them in solution | 18:23 |
| kanzure | you can make type 3 secretion systems in solution (i know, it's not atomically precise) http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c5/T3SS_needle_complex.svg | 18:24 |
| bbrittain | looks... kinda like a flagellum | 18:25 |
| genehacker | but you can't make the tooltips which you need to do useful stuff | 18:25 |
| kanzure | bbrittain: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_three_secretion_system | 18:25 |
| genehacker | it's a bacterial drill | 18:25 |
| maaku | can't is a strong word | 18:25 |
| maaku | it's a hard, hard problem | 18:25 |
| genehacker | in solution at least | 18:25 |
| bbrittain | shit. I was so right. | 18:25 |
| nmz787_i | genehacker: need some tips made? | 18:26 |
| nmz787_i | I just got some work making some today | 18:26 |
| maaku | nmz787_i: different tooltips : http://www.molecularassembler.com/Papers/MinToolset.pdf | 18:27 |
| nmz787_i | genehacker: did you see the few comments I sent you while you were not in the room? | 18:27 |
| genehacker | sure, I'll take 10,000 dimerP tools | 18:27 |
| nmz787_i | from a few nights ago | 18:27 |
| genehacker | no | 18:27 |
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| maaku | genehacker: do you work on this stuff full time? | 18:27 |
| genehacker | well not molecular manufacturing no | 18:28 |
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| nmz787_i | maaku: that's 102 pgs long, can you sum up the required hardware briefly? | 18:28 |
| genehacker | but I'm trying to design molecules to do something mechanical | 18:28 |
| kanzure | nmz787_i: here's my summary.. http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/nanotech/freitas_process/notes.txt | 18:28 |
| genehacker | as a research project | 18:29 |
| nmz787_i | genehacker: basically from the top (and maybe a little from the prev day bottom) http://gnusha.org/logs/2014-11-08.log | 18:29 |
| nmz787_i | kanzure: thx | 18:29 |
| maaku | nmz787_i: it's a set of 9 tooltips which you could use to mechanically construct diamandoid structures | 18:29 |
| genehacker | you want a solid state vacuum pump? | 18:30 |
| maaku | genehacker: academia? cool. | 18:30 |
| maaku | this is what I do only when my brain is burnt out from working on bitcoin, so progress is slow :( | 18:30 |
| nmz787_i | kanzure / maaku why is #4 needed... isn't that the opposite of #2 ? | 18:31 |
| nmz787_i | (of the indented #s) | 18:31 |
| nmz787_i | (at the top) | 18:31 |
| kanzure | reusable tips | 18:31 |
| nmz787_i | Attach tooltip molecule to deposition surface .... Separate finished tool from deposition surface | 18:32 |
| kanzure | when you tell a chemist to make a bond he will make a bond | 18:32 |
| nmz787_i | (do work in between) | 18:32 |
| nmz787_i | (on the tip) | 18:32 |
| genehacker | nmz787_i, if we get this stuff to work, we might be able to make that solidstate vacuum pump thingy | 18:32 |
| nmz787_i | genehacker: seems like it would be game-changing | 18:32 |
| genehacker | right now it's a pretty big if | 18:33 |
| nmz787_i | well I can help with steps 2,3, and 4 I believe... of the Fritos process | 18:33 |
| nmz787_i | mmmm | 18:33 |
| kanzure | hmm it looks like freitas was doing vasp simulations | 18:33 |
| kanzure | (tallakahath is now my vasp person) | 18:33 |
| maaku | i'll take a solidstate vacuum pump please! | 18:33 |
| nmz787_i | genehacker: yeah but seems like a perfect goal, of the multitude out there | 18:33 |
| nmz787_i | I kind of just had a mind splurge and needed to vent :) | 18:34 |
| nmz787_i | I still don't understand the 'separate tool' | 18:35 |
| genehacker | wait so is the vasp stuff recent for freitas? | 18:35 |
| nmz787_i | isn't it attached to the handle | 18:35 |
| tallakahath | No lets not talk about vasp | 18:35 |
| kanzure | nah i think freitas has been doing vasp simulations for a while now | 18:35 |
| nmz787_i | which you attach to a gantry | 18:35 |
| maaku | nmz787_i: when the tool interacts with the surface, it bonds | 18:35 |
| kanzure | tallakahath: too late | 18:35 |
| maaku | so tool separation is not identical | 18:35 |
| nmz787_i | is this not just a functionalized AFM type tip? | 18:35 |
| genehacker | it probably is | 18:37 |
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| genehacker | but you need one hell of an AFM | 18:37 |
| genehacker | to get the necessary resolution | 18:37 |
| maaku | yes iirc the trajectories they use would be compatible with an AFM | 18:37 |
| maaku | if you had an unobtainium AFM | 18:37 |
| nmz787_i | nah | 18:37 |
| nmz787_i | voice coil should be OK | 18:37 |
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| nmz787_i | from like a laser driv | 18:38 |
| nmz787_i | CD/bluray etc | 18:38 |
| nmz787_i | with a super awesome DAC | 18:38 |
| bbrittain | vasp. vasp. vasp | 18:38 |
| bbrittain | oh. kanzure. thoughts on onecodex? | 18:39 |
| nmz787_i | and AFM tips are what I am going to start making soon with a FIB, or something like that... some probe tip thing | 18:39 |
| genehacker | but you need like angstrom resolution | 18:39 |
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| bbrittain | oh. kanzure. thoughts on onecodex? | 18:39 |
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| nmz787_i | hmm | 18:39 |
| genehacker | which is really ridiculous | 18:39 |
| nmz787_i | you'd need SEM/TEM to verify thickness I guess then | 18:39 |
| kanzure | bbrittain: ask ParahSailin_ | 18:39 |
| bbrittain | oh. kanzure. thoughts on onecodex? | 18:39 |
| nmz787_i | they easily achieve sub-nm res these days | 18:39 |
| maaku | nmz787_i: the other problem is that these are very specific highy strained structures | 18:39 |
| bbrittain | argh | 18:39 |
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| genehacker | easily? | 18:40 |
| kanzure | maaku: liquid phase assembly might be more achievable | 18:40 |
| nmz787_i | I think so | 18:40 |
| maaku | and there doesn't currently exist a pathway to synthesis | 18:40 |
| nmz787_i | they quote sub-angstrom on TEM on websites | 18:40 |
| nmz787_i | for product sales | 18:40 |
| maaku | kanzure: right, that's my assuption. liquid phase assembly of tooltips using custom enzymes | 18:40 |
| nmz787_i | maaku: makes more sense now... the actual tip of the tip is the hard/novel part? | 18:41 |
| nmz787_i | maaku: have ppl made them? | 18:41 |
| maaku | nmz787_i: yes | 18:41 |
| maaku | no | 18:41 |
| nmz787_i | what 'chemical paint set' do you paint with? | 18:41 |
| nmz787_i | after it's made? | 18:41 |
| maaku | yes it's the hard part, no i don't think any have been made | 18:41 |
| maaku | (also, it's patented by merkle and freitas, fyi) | 18:41 |
| kanzure | there have been simulations | 18:41 |
| maaku | nmz787_i: they are tool tips for depositing carbon and hydrogen | 18:42 |
| maaku | e.g. to make diamandoid surfaces, nano gears, rods, and assemblies, etc. | 18:42 |
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| bbrittain | is my internet backkk? | 18:42 |
| nmz787_i | maaku: not too sure, just looks like a conical shape to me basically | 18:42 |
| bbrittain | sweet. I think it is | 18:42 |
| maaku | nmz787_i: it's part of this project : http://www.molecularassembler.com/Nanofactory/ | 18:42 |
| bbrittain | kanzure: any thoughts on onecodex? | 18:43 |
| nmz787_i | you can get some super-awesome features with CVD and DRIE | 18:43 |
| bbrittain | https://onecodex.com/ | 18:43 |
| kanzure | bbrittain: ask ParahSailin_ | 18:43 |
| bbrittain | ParahSailin_, thoughts? | 18:44 |
| * bbrittain wonders why ParahSailin_ | 18:44 | |
| kanzure | his job | 18:44 |
| kanzure | bbrittain: at this point ParahSailin_ is like the version of you except 20 years into the future | 18:44 |
| bbrittain | fuck that. gimme 3 years | 18:44 |
| kanzure | except the future is the past and it sucks | 18:44 |
| bbrittain | well, I actually think I'm at the perfect time to be doing this | 18:45 |
| kanzure | actually he may have started in biology | 18:45 |
| nmz787_i | hah, they want to be the google for genomic data, but google is also doing that | 18:46 |
| bbrittain | by the time I have stuff figured out in a few years, synthesis/sequencing will be cheap enough to actually do shit | 18:46 |
| bbrittain | without the big $$$ | 18:46 |
| kanzure | maaku: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/nucleic/fbi-diybio-dna-v1.pdf this is some background on nmz787_i | 18:47 |
| bbrittain | kanzure: my first real job was at NIH :P | 18:47 |
| bbrittain | so I kinda started in bio | 18:47 |
| genehacker | isn't BLAST like the google for genetic data? | 18:47 |
| bbrittain | I've been learning that BLAST isn't as useful as I once thought | 18:48 |
| bbrittain | hmms are far more useful | 18:48 |
| bbrittain | "Why DRM doesn't work" | 18:48 |
| bbrittain | tell that to my coworkers and darpa :( | 18:49 |
| maaku | bbrittain: ssshhhhhhh you'll dry up the funding | 18:49 |
| genehacker | here have a genome: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/nuccore/158539108 | 18:49 |
| kanzure | .title | 18:50 |
| yoleaux | Marburg marburgvirus isolate Marburg virus H.sapiens-tc/KEN/1980/Mt. E - Nucleotide - NCBI | 18:50 |
| bbrittain | http://www.genewiz.com/public/news-Ebola-Virus-Synthesis.aspx | 18:50 |
| bbrittain | for china | 18:50 |
| kanzure | .title | 18:50 |
| yoleaux | Lt. Governor Guadagno Celebrates GENEWIZ Expansion | 18:50 |
| bbrittain | "the China CDC sent an emergency request to GENEWIZ for the synthesis of key EV genes" | 18:50 |
| bbrittain | and GENEWIZ was like "sounds great to me!" | 18:50 |
| genehacker | awesome | 18:51 |
| genehacker | it's not the whole virus though, so we're safe | 18:51 |
| bbrittain | totes | 18:51 |
| bbrittain | anyways, a biophysics friend was interviewing at onecodex and he wanted the dirt | 18:52 |
| nmz787_i | and that's why I stopped pursuing China for funding | 18:53 |
| genehacker | I thought these companies had some big genome blacklist of stuff we are absolutely not going to synthesize no matter what | 18:53 |
| bbrittain | nmz787_i: 为什么我学习中文？！ | 18:53 |
| bbrittain | china seems like it might be useful | 18:54 |
| bbrittain | nmz787_i: I forget, what do you do right now? | 18:54 |
| maaku | genehacker: when i was at transcriptic we didn't, although that was a concern | 18:55 |
| kanzure | you worked at transcriptic | 18:55 |
| bbrittain | maaku: oh. you worked at transcriptic | 18:55 |
| bbrittain | tell me | 18:55 |
| bbrittain | the dirt | 18:55 |
| bbrittain | now | 18:55 |
| maaku | i don't know if there is anyone with a blacklist | 18:55 |
| genehacker | you what? | 18:55 |
| yashgaroth | there's a list but legitimate organizations can get around it | 18:55 |
| kanzure | i really wanted to work with max | 18:55 |
| maaku | yeah i wrote scheduling algorithms for their robotic lab | 18:55 |
| kanzure | lkdsalkfdksaflksa;kfdad | 18:56 |
| maaku | before dropping out to do bitcoin full time | 18:56 |
| kanzure | lolz | 18:56 |
| maaku | i'm at blockstream.com now | 18:56 |
| kanzure | right | 18:56 |
| bbrittain | oh shit | 18:56 |
| bbrittain | you work with gmaxwell then! | 18:56 |
| * bbrittain is friends | 18:56 | |
| maaku | yup greg is even awesomer in person :) | 18:57 |
| kanzure | maaku: i have a love/hate relationship with transcriptic.com/platform ... on the one hand, a functional api standard would be nice. on the other hand, centralization of lab equipment.... | 18:57 |
| bbrittain | maaku: I worked with him at mozilla | 18:57 |
| genehacker | you mean to tell me that these huge biotech companies aren't implementing controls on what can be synthesized? | 18:57 |
| maaku | bbrittain: small world :) | 18:57 |
| kanzure | maaku: https://github.com/Opentrons/OpenTrons implements transcriptic's json standard thingy. | 18:57 |
| kanzure | http://www.opentrons.com/ | 18:57 |
| nmz787_i | currently I'm working on rourting a debug-motherboard automatically | 18:57 |
| bbrittain | maaku: very much so :P | 18:58 |
| maaku | genehacker: it came up while i was there and we agreed that we needed to have a black list, but if such a thing exists it would be news to me | 18:58 |
| genehacker | http://issues.org/26-3/tucker-2/ | 18:58 |
| maaku | so it was on our list of one million things to get done asap | 18:58 |
| bbrittain | maaku: how robotisized is transcriptic? | 18:58 |
| kanzure | there is a blacklist | 18:58 |
| kanzure | dna2.0 made claims of such a blcklist | 18:58 |
| kanzure | *blacklist | 18:58 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/fbi-diybio-2012/howard-simon-dna20.txt | 18:59 |
| genehacker | there's software too | 18:59 |
| nmz787_i | it was a health dept thing | 18:59 |
| maaku | bbrittain: 100% | 18:59 |
| yashgaroth | they'll report all suspicious activity, or just deny your order | 18:59 |
| nmz787_i | or some dept | 18:59 |
| genehacker | http://biotech.craic.com/blackwatch/introduction.html | 18:59 |
| kanzure | "There are some inherent problems, but because this is a voluntary regime, there's nothing that would preclude or prohibit or impede amateur biology community from accessing the blacklist of recipients and the various lists, the agents list, the Australian list, of seuqences and combinations of matter that are suspect. There is no impedance and it's publicly accessible and we're a voluntary regime. In that sense, we all sit in the same ... | 18:59 |
| kanzure | ... relationship to this process." | 18:59 |
| bbrittain | maaku: shit. really? | 18:59 |
| bbrittain | thats... amazing | 18:59 |
| nmz787_i | dtra ? | 19:00 |
| nmz787_i | but yeah, it was a recommendation | 19:00 |
| kanzure | well they have a different model or idea than ginkgo | 19:00 |
| kanzure | ginkgo isn't going for "cloud biology" | 19:00 |
| kanzure | or "heroku" | 19:00 |
| bbrittain | certainly :P | 19:00 |
| kanzure | they are more going for "gene foundry... thing" | 19:01 |
| bbrittain | but our build iteration time is _very_ important | 19:01 |
| kanzure | and "give me all your oil money" | 19:01 |
| kanzure | oh wait, that was craig venter, not ginkgo | 19:01 |
| kanzure | my bad. | 19:01 |
| bbrittain | lol | 19:01 |
| bbrittain | nah, we just make smelly stuff | 19:02 |
| * bbrittain winks | 19:02 | |
| genehacker | when's craig ever going to finish synthia? it's been like 8 years now | 19:02 |
| kanzure | what happened to making it all produce isoamyl acetate | 19:02 |
| kanzure | bbrittain: http://2013.igem.org/Team:Queens_Canada/Project/Repel | 19:02 |
| kanzure | "Alcohol acetyl-transferase 1 (ATF1) (BBa_J45014) is an enzyme endogenous to Saccharomyces cerevisiae and was first used by MIT iGEM 2006. It catalyzes the conversion of isoamyl alcohol to isoamyl acetate, which has a banana smell." | 19:02 |
| kanzure | andytoshi: ^igem in action | 19:03 |
| bbrittain | yay. igem! | 19:03 |
| * bbrittain is sarcastic | 19:03 | |
| kanzure | yeah :/ | 19:03 |
| kanzure | genehacker: probably when synthesis gets cheaper | 19:03 |
| bbrittain | kanzure: I'm of the opinion that synthia is not worth it | 19:04 |
| kanzure | you can only spend $40 million so many times on a genome | 19:04 |
| bbrittain | or well it is | 19:04 |
| kanzure | at some point you will run out of cash | 19:04 |
| bbrittain | but not the best route | 19:04 |
| kanzure | cheap synthesis would be far more useful at this point | 19:04 |
| kanzure | like $1/genome would be nice | 19:04 |
| nmz787_i | synthia will be possible | 19:04 |
| nmz787_i | for cheap | 19:04 |
| nmz787_i | i seriously could use a lackey | 19:05 |
| kanzure | what do you think this channel is for | 19:05 |
| kanzure | did you pester lichen? | 19:05 |
| bbrittain | I'm on Tom Knight's Mesoplasma florum >> Mycoplasma genitalium train | 19:05 |
| nmz787_i | yeah | 19:05 |
| nmz787_i | they're up for it, but I am not sure how exactly to proceed with fundings | 19:06 |
| kanzure | oh right, it's mycoplasma i forgot about that | 19:06 |
| kanzure | sheena has been trying to kill a mycoplasma genitalium infection for a few months now (in a flock of.. alpaca? geese?) | 19:06 |
| bbrittain | sheena2: wat. | 19:06 |
| nmz787_i | synthia will be possible as a general meme, not the specific species it refers to now | 19:06 |
| nmz787_i | chickens | 19:07 |
| kanzure | oh, chickens. | 19:07 |
| bbrittain | there are some interesting people in this channel | 19:07 |
| * bbrittain needs to hang here more again | 19:08 | |
| kanzure | yes we are sad you abandoned us | 19:08 |
| bbrittain | I'm back! :D | 19:08 |
| kanzure | i figured tom knight fed you trash talk or something | 19:08 |
| bbrittain | I kinda abandoned all of IRC for a couple of months :/ | 19:09 |
| bbrittain | nah, I haven't mentioned you fold, I figured it would rub my new pals the wrong way | 19:09 |
| bbrittain | s/fold/folks/ | 19:10 |
| bbrittain | we... don't see eye to eye on a lot of IP stuff | 19:10 |
| bbrittain | I don't see me working there long term | 19:10 |
| bbrittain | I just want to learn | 19:10 |
| bbrittain | and this is a cheap hack | 19:10 |
| kanzure | they are more conservative on IP things? | 19:10 |
| bbrittain | in comparison to other bio labs? probably not. | 19:11 |
| kanzure | is reshma still there btw? | 19:11 |
| bbrittain | yuppers, you know her? | 19:11 |
| kanzure | no | 19:11 |
| bbrittain | I try to infect my coworkers, I am succeeding in some ways | 19:12 |
| bbrittain | and not at all in some of them | 19:13 |
| kanzure | open source is very nuanced strategy | 19:13 |
| kanzure | it is hard to communicate from scratch | 19:13 |
| bbrittain | yea :/ | 19:13 |
| kanzure | because it sounds an awful lot like "don't make ny money" | 19:13 |
| kanzure | *any | 19:13 |
| kanzure | even though it's totally about making money | 19:13 |
| bbrittain | plus it's not like they have prior exposure | 19:14 |
| kanzure | none? | 19:14 |
| bbrittain | or the fact that our competitors don't do it | 19:14 |
| bbrittain | not as in they make open source stuff | 19:14 |
| kanzure | hmm. | 19:14 |
| * bbrittain is talking about bio right now, not the software | 19:15 | |
| bbrittain | wetware. I love that term. | 19:15 |
| nmz787_i | you know what they say about open-source and biology... 'once you go open-source, your business ends up like a horse' | 19:15 |
| nmz787_i | in a glue factory, on a dinner plate, in a bag of dog chow, or riding off into the sunset | 19:16 |
| * bbrittain rolls eyes | 19:16 | |
| kanzure | maaku: "i was working with dyna and its handling of algebraic data types at the time was broken somehow" | 19:16 |
| genehacker | it seems to work well for Willow Garage. | 19:18 |
| genehacker | They were able to kick microsoft out of the robotics business | 19:19 |
| bbrittain | yeaaa | 19:20 |
| bbrittain | I don't disagree | 19:20 |
| bbrittain | my coworkers do | 19:20 |
| bbrittain | and don't even ask them about DIYbio, most of them will laugh in your face. | 19:20 |
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| bbrittain | the concept that you can do this sorta stuff without uni... bothers them. | 19:21 |
| kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UekVSt1cA5Y | 19:22 |
| yoleaux | Brain Backups talk at SingularityNYC on 10/9/2014 - YouTube | 19:22 |
| kanzure | from russell hanson | 19:22 |
| bbrittain | they may be biased by the fact that like half of them have taught at MIT. | 19:22 |
| genehacker | willow garage is also a hardware company and it's beneficial for them to have other people develop for them for free | 19:22 |
| nmz787_i | bbrittain: that's probably because they don't understand diybio | 19:23 |
| nmz787_i | phds in genetics and biochem are part of diybio | 19:24 |
| nmz787_i | etc etc | 19:24 |
| kanzure | "BRAIN BACKUPS IS DEVELOPING NON-DESTRUCTIVE NON-INVASIVE IMAGING OF BRAINS AT HIGH RESOLUTION" | 19:24 |
| kanzure | oh right i forgot about them | 19:24 |
| bbrittain | nmz787_i: can you show me something interesting or novel that has come out of DIYbio? | 19:24 |
| nmz787_i | maybe it's just the type of person, self-determined, etc... | 19:24 |
| kanzure | "With 86bn neurons and 100tn connections the total cost of the data and metadata storage is around $80K." | 19:24 |
| kanzure | "1 terabyte hard drive = ~$90 –> storage for all human neurons and synapses ~$90 * 909.49 = ~$81,854" | 19:24 |
| bbrittain | kanzure: that's... cool. | 19:25 |
| kanzure | "After significant development, our target market is the demographic who can afford the $81,000 and decreasing storage cost, plus the cost of the scanning procedure. We plan to offer flexible payment/insurance plans once the requisite regulatory, scientific, and technological challenges have been accomplished. Actual neuroanatomy figures vary greatly, depending on the individual and local neurobiology." | 19:25 |
| nmz787_i | bbrittain: there are a few current kickstarters of folks that started stuff with diybio | 19:25 |
| nmz787_i | bbrittain: me if that counts | 19:25 |
| bbrittain | the robots stuff doesn't really count in their mind | 19:25 |
| nmz787_i | bbrittain: all the stuff patrikd has done | 19:25 |
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| nmz787_i | bbrittain: who is also like double or triple major in EE CS and BioChem/BioComput or something | 19:26 |
| nmz787_i | or simon field, who writes about microscopes and other related stuff | 19:26 |
| bbrittain | nmz787_i: what has he done? I only see him tweet about his new biohacker lab | 19:26 |
| nmz787_i | kanzure: does jmil count? | 19:26 |
| nmz787_i | who 'he'? | 19:27 |
| bbrittain | patrickd | 19:27 |
| nmz787_i | I worked with patrikd at JBEI | 19:27 |
| nmz787_i | 3/4 years ago | 19:27 |
| nmz787_i | and he was an expert then | 19:27 |
| kanzure | what about jmil? | 19:28 |
| kanzure | what are we counting | 19:28 |
| nmz787_i | bbrittain: someone who could tell you the answer to that codex thing, that's for sure | 19:28 |
| bbrittain | what has he done since "going DIY", I genuinely want examples to show my coworkers | 19:28 |
| nmz787_i | I think it's all been great | 19:29 |
| nmz787_i | use google to find it out | 19:29 |
| kanzure | well he did an igem thing recently | 19:29 |
| kanzure | and jmil became an associate professor at rice doing 3d printing open source tissue biology.. stuff.. | 19:29 |
| kanzure | i got the order of those words wrong | 19:30 |
| bbrittain | Patrik D was a scientific advisor for Glowing Plant :/ | 19:30 |
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| nmz787_i | tell ya what though, electron microscopy and ion beam stuff is a lot more internet-lonely | 19:31 |
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| genehacker | internet lonely? | 19:31 |
| nmz787_i | yeah | 19:31 |
| kanzure | you guys are in the same state why do you not hang out | 19:31 |
| nmz787_i | and in real life they're all professionals at places I don't work | 19:32 |
| nmz787_i | idk, do you like camping or hiking genehacker? | 19:32 |
| nmz787_i | i could probably come down there sometime to take a walk | 19:33 |
| genehacker | I'm in oregon, is that even an a question? | 19:33 |
| * bbrittain waves hands frantically looking for bostonians | 19:33 | |
| nmz787_i | I see some non-movers at the office | 19:33 |
| kanzure | bbrittain: well there's this guy aaronsw | 19:33 |
| bbrittain | kanzure: not cool | 19:33 |
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| kanzure | oh right | 19:34 |
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| kanzure | cluckj is in boston | 19:34 |
| kanzure | you should hang out with cluck | 19:34 |
| kanzure | *cluckj | 19:34 |
| kanzure | "Sure I know Todd. Their method is destructive and doesn't record any electrophysiology data. Ours is not! I don't know Matt Goodman but we know many people in common. CLARITY is *extremely* destructive as I'm sure you know. We're more on the nanotech side, nanoparticles tagged with aptamers and antibodies, gold nanorods for plasmons, voltage sensitive dyes for electrical activity. All of which we find infinitely more interesting that ... | 19:35 |
| kanzure | ... knife-edge scanning microscopy :) " | 19:35 |
| genehacker | damn if I only had time to hang out | 19:35 |
| genehacker | so how are they doing that noninvasively? | 19:37 |
| kanzure | http://brainbackups.com/ | 19:37 |
| bbrittain | kanzure: you sure cluckj is in boston? he appears to go to RPI now | 19:37 |
| kanzure | my reality is collapsing around me | 19:38 |
| kanzure | also he might be dead too, i haven't heard from him in like two months | 19:39 |
| bbrittain | tweeted yesterday | 19:39 |
| genehacker | so they don't explain how they're going to do it noninvasively? | 19:39 |
| kanzure | i haven't seen an explanation yet (but i haven't looked hard) | 19:40 |
| kragenjaviersita | DigInfo is not as awesome as it appeared at first | 19:40 |
| kanzure | "Brain Backups is actively developing new methods and has developed a number of proprietary techniques for imaging neurons using synthetic biology, MRI, smart contrast agents and sensors, and aptamer-based technology." | 19:40 |
| kanzure | looks like aptamers | 19:40 |
| kanzure | and contrast agents | 19:40 |
| kanzure | probably PET scans | 19:41 |
| kanzure | http://cdn.medgadget.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Siemens-Biograph-mCT-scan-full-body.jpg | 19:41 |
| kanzure | q: if synapses are being regularly created then couldn't you measure total synapse growth in meters per day? | 19:43 |
| genehacker | "nanorods for plasmons, voltage sensitive dyes for electrical activity" | 19:44 |
| genehacker | it's optical | 19:44 |
| kanzure | i think there's a voltage sensitive mri reporter | 19:44 |
| genehacker | so why don't we use it in mice? | 19:46 |
| genehacker | http://newsoffice.mit.edu/2014/mri-reveals-genetic-activity | 19:48 |
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| tallakahath | I've been told to pop back in here? | 19:52 |
| kanzure | genehacker: now's your chance | 19:54 |
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| kanzure | he chickened out i guess | 20:01 |
| jrayhawk | tallakahath: I'm only going to be paying a little bit of attention in here, but can you detail satiety problems that kanzure has mentioned to me? | 20:04 |
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| jrayhawk | I will probably catch up on them in a few hours. | 20:07 |
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| tallakahath | jrayhawk: Uh, I do not feel fullness or any want to stop eating until my stomach is physically distended. But I manage this through conscious calorie counting and use of a food scale so its not really a problem, per-se | 20:14 |
| jrayhawk | A lot of autonomic caloric estimation for ghrelin signaling is done in the cephalic stage; does this happen with solid food that you chew thoroughly? | 20:17 |
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| jrayhawk | Usually anabolic folks deliberately attempt to bypass the cephalic stage with e.g. shakes. | 20:18 |
| tallakahath | jrayhawk: Yes. I've run the full gamut from solid food I don't chew thoroughly, to solid food I chew thoroughly, to soft food, to soup | 20:19 |
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| tallakahath | Makes me a sure champ at AYCE sushi tho | 20:20 |
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| jrayhawk | Have you done any 23andme-type individual sqeuencing to see if you have GOAT or GHSR mutations? | 21:08 |
| tallakahath | No. I am waiting for the tech and the science to mature and cheapen. | 21:10 |
| tallakahath | Again, I believe calling it a 'problem' in earnest is an exaggeration... | 21:11 |
| jrayhawk | Certainly an advantage for anabolics. | 21:11 |
| nmz787_i | have you tried drugs? | 21:11 |
| nmz787_i | if so, which? | 21:11 |
| nmz787_i | and what were the effects/outcome? | 21:12 |
| tallakahath | I run an EC stack for appetite suppression, as many stims grant. But tolerance is a bitch. | 21:12 |
| jrayhawk | Most of that is through raising blood sugar; does that work? | 21:12 |
| nmz787_i | what about other things that are known to mess with food feelings? other than stims | 21:13 |
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| jrayhawk | or, rather, do stims have an appreciable effect? | 21:13 |
| tallakahath | I've done keto; helps mildly. I've tried IF, and had many of the negative results women tend to note with the regimen. 16, 18, and 20 hour versions, all. | 21:13 |
| nmz787 | interferon? | 21:14 |
| tallakahath | The stims worked until they stopped working. 600 mg caffeine + 75 mg ephedrine a day, I'm in week... five or so and no longer noticing effects. | 21:14 |
| nmz787 | what about thc? | 21:14 |
| tallakahath | THC and I do not get along. | 21:14 |
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| jrayhawk | seems like hammering the endocannabinoids is exactly the wrong way to deal with an overactive appetite. | 21:15 |
| nmz787 | meh, i'm pretty sure you get tolerance there too | 21:15 |
| nmz787 | which seems like the goal | 21:15 |
| tallakahath | I have run the span from 'sufficient' water to excess water intake, scaled around salt levels, and keep my protein levels at approx. 1 g/lbm with a steady stream of fresh and varied vegetables and meat sources, so I doubt its malnutrition.. | 21:17 |
| nmz787 | obv some feedback loops are screwed | 21:17 |
| jrayhawk | When did this start? | 21:17 |
| nmz787 | so you need to get around the hysterisis | 21:17 |
| tallakahath | Hard to define. In high school I packed lunch, had limited slush funds for junk food purchases and had food cooked by parental units so my intake was usually externally limited. | 21:17 |
| tallakahath | Also my high school was an 8-story walkup and I was still in my growing years so determining 'overating' vs 'teenagers are hungry' is hard | 21:18 |
| nmz787 | have you ever done feast/famine regimes? | 21:18 |
| tallakahath | Some time in university, I guess? The board plan was both mandatory and crap so that curtailed mye ating somewhat but stress and availability were... bad | 21:18 |
| nmz787 | those seem like it would be a bit easier mentally, as in all or nothing | 21:18 |
| tallakahath | Yes, see the IF routines | 21:18 |
| jrayhawk | okay, that's helpful | 21:18 |
| tallakahath | Unless you mean like 5/2 or something | 21:19 |
| nmz787 | like every 3rd day | 21:19 |
| nmz787 | 2 on, 1 off | 21:19 |
| nmz787 | on food | 21:19 |
| tallakahath | I've done that. I can stick ot it but, long-term, it doesn't help the underlying problem. | 21:19 |
| tallakahath | I have things under control, I just wish I could rely on my internal homeostasis engine to keep things in-check rather than have to be conscious of what I'm eating all the time | 21:20 |
| tallakahath | From empirical observations (weight measurements over time + food log where everything that goes into my mouth goes on a food scale first and is made from scratch/near scratch) | 21:21 |
| tallakahath | I am also sure that my BMR is on the low end for my weight/height range | 21:21 |
| tallakahath | Not 'indicative of defect' levels of low, just, 'there is a range based on various factors and I should use most of the reducing multipliers' low | 21:22 |
| jrayhawk | Do you put on adipose tissue easily, or does it fairly inherently go to muscle? | 21:22 |
| tallakahath | Adipose | 21:22 |
| nmz787 | have you tried a calorie restriction regime? | 21:22 |
| tallakahath | I am on one right now | 21:23 |
| jrayhawk | she just said that | 21:23 |
| nmz787 | it was hard for me at first, but it's pretty natural now | 21:23 |
| nmz787 | goes well with the 2 on 1 off type | 21:23 |
| jrayhawk | Yeah, men seem to do better on IF. | 21:23 |
| nmz787 | i don't see calorie restriction mention | 21:23 |
| tallakahath | I am on what should be a -500 kcal deficit | 21:24 |
| jrayhawk | Have you done much in the way of deliberate non-immunogenic dieting, a la paleo/primal/WAPF/SCD/GAPS/Pefect Health Diet/etc.? | 21:25 |
| tallakahath | I've done keto, which intersects pretty well with paleo | 21:25 |
| tallakahath | But the 'organic as possible' 'raw as possible' tenants of paleo fall outside my budgetary ability | 21:25 |
| tallakahath | I quite like keto but it did not like me | 21:26 |
| jrayhawk | Leptin is the master energy homeostasis hormone, but usually when people lower inflammation to sort out leptin resistance, it's essentially impossible to feed them enough calories to get them fatter because the body just allocates it all towards anabolic purposes or metabolic purposes. | 21:26 |
| jrayhawk | So at this point I am suspecting something is fundamentally wrong with either ghrelin or leptin. | 21:26 |
| jrayhawk | ghrelin managing short homeostasis and leptin doing long-term homeostasis | 21:27 |
| tallakahath | It could also be something related to my tendency to stress-eat and being in grad school | 21:27 |
| jrayhawk | s/short/short-term | 21:27 |
| jrayhawk | Yeah, eventually corticosteroid resistance sets in and you lose your primary immune suppressant. | 21:27 |
| nmz787 | licorice root seems to have a eating suppression effect | 21:28 |
| nmz787 | and it's pretty cheap | 21:28 |
| tallakahath | And I can't stand the taste of it without vomiting, unfortunately | 21:28 |
| nmz787 | if i recommend anything 'organic' it's bananas and milk | 21:28 |
| tallakahath | Blame freshman-year me and her lovely bottle of absinthe | 21:28 |
| nmz787 | and leafy veggies too if they're cheap enough | 21:29 |
| nmz787 | isn't absinthe anise? | 21:29 |
| nmz787 | err | 21:29 |
| nmz787 | wormwood | 21:29 |
| nmz787 | is that the same genus/? | 21:29 |
| tallakahath | Its the licorice smell/taste, which anise, absinthe, fennel, and licorice all share | 21:29 |
| tallakahath | I don't know how it works chemically, but if I smell that family of smells I become nauseated | 21:29 |
| jrayhawk | If you're in a university setting, you might be able to convince some biochem or medical folks to test leptin and ghrelin levels for you and see if one of them is completely haywire. | 21:29 |
| tallakahath | I could see if the health center supports that testing? | 21:30 |
| tallakahath | I am going to an endocrinologist soon for unrelated reasons and could also bring that up there | 21:30 |
| jrayhawk | everything is related | 21:30 |
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| nmz787 | how about a currandero? | 21:31 |
| tallakahath | Well, as far as I can find, copper deficiency can cause all sorts of metabolic funtimes, but copper excess doesn't seem to | 21:31 |
| jrayhawk | i guess that would be a fun opportunity to do that. it's possible you can also buy some internet labs for cheaper. | 21:31 |
| jrayhawk | excess copper crashes zinc; pretty easy for that to go wrong | 21:31 |
| tallakahath | I've been hyper-supping zinc in the hopes of reducing my Cu | 21:32 |
| tallakahath | (it hasn't helped) | 21:32 |
| jrayhawk | pyrolurria is an interesting disease that can sink massive amounts of zinc | 21:32 |
| jrayhawk | not sure if it's relevant or not; that's what testing is for | 21:33 |
| tallakahath | Mm. I could just start taking clenbuterol daily. Probably not good for long-term health, though. | 21:36 |
| kragenjaviersita | all that stuff makes me worry about metal poisoning | 21:45 |
| tallakahath | Night, all | 22:28 |
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| ebowden | paperbot: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12752463 | 23:30 |
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