| --- Log opened Wed Nov 12 00:00:48 2014 | ||
| -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 00:10 | |
| -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ejzpqyqgdmmyfvhc] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 00:30 | |
| -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.147.27] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 00:45 | |
| -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.147.27] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 00:46 | |
| -!- strangewarp [~strangewa@c-76-25-206-3.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 01:44 | |
| -!- strangewarp [~strangewa@c-76-25-206-3.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 01:56 | |
| -!- pete4242 [~smuxi@boole.london.hackspace.org.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 02:08 | |
| -!- snuffeluffegus [~snuff@5.150.254.180] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 02:33 | |
| -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ejzpqyqgdmmyfvhc] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] | 02:37 | |
| -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 02:53 | |
| -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.147.27] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 03:06 | |
| -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.147.27] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 03:51 | |
| -!- genehacker [~chatzilla@c-50-137-46-240.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 04:11 | |
| fenn | hum i'm surprised nobody said anything to tallakahath about iodine deficiency | 04:30 |
|---|---|---|
| yoleaux | 02:05Z <kanzure> fenn: you are bad at picking okay times to sleep | 04:30 |
| fenn | wah | 04:30 |
| fenn | or just hypothyroidism | 04:32 |
| fenn | i need to start keeping dossiers on people, how the hell am i supposed to keep all this straight | 04:33 |
| fenn | genehacker is in oregon now? | 04:33 |
| fenn | i mean, better dossiers | 04:35 |
| fenn | and then do spaced-repetition memorization of names and critical info | 04:36 |
| fenn | yeah, that's the ticket | 04:36 |
| kanzure | my system does not require spaced repetition, just relentless stalking | 04:39 |
| -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-56-10-35.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 04:43 | |
| fenn | sometimes it freaks me out when people are still awake after i've gone to sleep and woken up, like they had never slept at all | 04:45 |
| fenn | then i remember that everyone just sleeps less than i do | 04:46 |
| eudoxia | i have a people.yaml that i never really bothered to fill | 04:46 |
| fenn | pff "effective August 1, 2007, the DEA now regulates Lugol's solution (and, in fact, all iodine solutions containing greater than 2.2% iodine) as a List I precursor because it may potentially be used in the illicit production of methamphetamine." | 04:46 |
| fenn | pretty soon everything will be illegal except for corn syrup and broadcast television | 04:47 |
| kanzure | it does however require that data goes into the file though, eudoxia | 04:47 |
| kanzure | important part of my system | 04:47 |
| kanzure | fenn: you should read the backlog | 04:47 |
| fenn | i also have a people.yaml, and i've read the backlog | 04:48 |
| fenn | i tend to only put canonical data like telephone numbers and shit in it tho | 04:48 |
| fenn | i have a tag list but i forget to update it | 04:49 |
| kanzure | yeah i can't say that my format is optimal | 04:49 |
| fenn | does jot let you append tags to an existing bookmark? | 04:49 |
| fenn | i'm wanting something like jot but for people | 04:49 |
| fenn | jotmuch | 04:49 |
| kanzure | jot appends correctly | 04:50 |
| eudoxia | does jotmuch make each bookmark a single file? | 04:51 |
| kanzure | no, it uses xapian | 04:52 |
| kanzure | although when editing it dumps out yaml | 04:52 |
| fenn | couldnt it do both? | 04:52 |
| kanzure | you can force software to do anything | 04:52 |
| kanzure | jot needs a bit of a rewrite. right now it's all in one file. | 04:53 |
| fenn | i mean xapian is just an index, but it's indexing _something_ | 04:53 |
| kanzure | lso site:github.com seems to work but not site:github.com/bitcoin or inurl | 04:53 |
| kanzure | *also | 04:53 |
| fenn | "Bookmarks are YAML documents." conflicts with "Export bookmarks as YAML with the dump command" | 04:54 |
| eudoxia | yeah, what i mean is, are the bookmarks stored each as a yaml file in some directory? | 04:55 |
| eudoxia | that seems to be the implication from the README | 04:55 |
| kanzure | no, db.add_document(doc) | 04:55 |
| kanzure | where db = db or xapian.WritableDatabase(DATABASE_DIR, xapian.DB_CREATE_OR_OPEN) | 04:56 |
| fenn | it's totally possible that it just stores yaml as strings in a database | 04:56 |
| fenn | yaml "documents" are technically just strings separated by the string "---" | 04:57 |
| eudoxia | i like my system of having a single bookmarks.yaml with the nested directories and bookmarks and just turning that to HTML | 04:58 |
| fenn | how do you have nested directories but only one file? huh? | 04:58 |
| kanzure | er, what's nested about it? | 04:59 |
| eudoxia | http://i.imgur.com/oJQD0P8.png | 05:00 |
| kanzure | it's not doing that | 05:01 |
| kanzure | oh, i did not see "my" | 05:01 |
| kanzure | your system does not have tags | 05:01 |
| kanzure | and you will suffer ontological paralysis | 05:02 |
| eudoxia | a tree is good enough for now | 05:02 |
| kanzure | also, the value of sub is a list with only a single item? why? | 05:02 |
| fenn | seconding ontological paralysis | 05:02 |
| fenn | yeah the list is not necessary, but it adds some kind of visual symmetry i guess | 05:03 |
| eudoxia | "sub" makes the node a directory | 05:04 |
| eudoxia | hm now i think that could be made simpler | 05:06 |
| fenn | the "-" mark before directory labels is unnecessary | 05:06 |
| eudoxia | yes, i could replace "- label: Dir name\n sub: ..." with "- Dir name: ..." | 05:07 |
| fenn | o wait i'm wrong | 05:07 |
| kanzure | instead of a list you can just do a dictionary with "dirname: ..." | 05:08 |
| kanzure | "Note: When mapping ports in the HOST:CONTAINER format, you may experience erroneous results when using a container port lower than 60, because YAML will parse numbers in the format xx:yy as sexagesimal (base 60). For this reason, we recommend always explicitly specifying your port mappings as strings." | 05:09 |
| kanzure | .title http://scoms.hypotheses.org/301 | 05:11 |
| yoleaux | France signs a five-year national deal with Elsevier | Sciences communes | 05:11 |
| kanzure | commentary https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8594706 | 05:11 |
| genehacker | so elsevier is free in all of france? | 05:12 |
| superkuh | Time to get a French VPS. | 05:13 |
| fenn | haha kiss your job goodbye NEETs http://youtube.com/watch?v=HdZ3y3tVtTU | 05:14 |
| fenn | .title | 05:14 |
| yoleaux | Bakery goods POS visual recognition system on trial in Tokyo bakery #DigInfo - YouTube | 05:14 |
| fenn | robots to bake the bread, robots to buy the bread, robots to eat the bread | 05:15 |
| kragenjaviersita | nnets? | 05:16 |
| kragenjaviersita | neets? | 05:16 |
| fenn | .wik NEET | 05:16 |
| yoleaux | "A NEET or neet is a young person who is "Not in Education, Employment, or Training". The acronym NEET was first used in the United Kingdom but its use has spread to other countries including Japan, South Korea and Taiwan." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEET | 05:16 |
| eudoxia | funfact: that's from brain corp, founded by eugene izhikevich, who figures prominently in the WBE roadmap | 05:16 |
| genehacker | dammit, why can't there be 'all you can eat' 'cable package' that regular consumers can buy into | 05:16 |
| kanzure | there's deepdyve and readcube but it's still hideously expensive | 05:16 |
| kanzure | and they just send you pngs of each page instead of pdfs | 05:16 |
| fenn | in japan you are either a bum/slacker, a student, or a salaryman | 05:16 |
| genehacker | ugh disgusting | 05:16 |
| genehacker | well with that system, they haven't eliminated a job, they have just made it require less skill, which means it's high time for all those NEETs to work | 05:17 |
| fenn | eudoxia: wow the same guy who made "The Izhikevich model neuron was developed as an efficient, powerful alternative to the integrate and fire model." | 05:18 |
| fenn | now i am very interested in how this bakery software works | 05:18 |
| eudoxia | yeah the izhikevich model guy | 05:18 |
| kragenjaviersita | .wik Izhikevich model | 05:19 |
| yoleaux | "The theta model (otherwise known as the Ermentrout-Kopell canonical model) is a "biological neuron model" originally used to model neurons in the animal Aplysia, but later became useful in various fields of computational neuroscience. The model is particularly well suited to mathematically describe a process involving rapid oscillations …" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theta_model | 05:19 |
| eudoxia | i choose to believe it's an uploaded rat | 05:19 |
| kragenjaviersita | "rapid oscillations"? | 05:19 |
| fenn | .wik aplysia | 05:19 |
| yoleaux | "Aplysia is a genus of medium-sized to extremely large sea slugs, specifically sea hares, which are one clade of large sea slugs, marine gastropod mollusks. The general description of sea hares can be found in the article on the superfamily Aplysioidea." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aplysia | 05:19 |
| fenn | sea hares! | 05:19 |
| kragenjaviersita | then shave them off | 05:20 |
| fenn | it does look sort of like a bunny | 05:20 |
| fenn | with tentacles | 05:20 |
| genehacker | so neural networks, best way to do them for neuroevolutionary learning? | 05:20 |
| kanzure | there are many open source implementations out there | 05:21 |
| kragenjaviersita | I don't know, I think whoever gave this taxon the name "sea hare" was taking hallucinogens at the time | 05:21 |
| kanzure | really it depends on your data set and what you want to be doing, genehacker | 05:21 |
| genehacker | fastest + integrable with netlogo | 05:21 |
| fenn | kanzure dont you see the similarity to a bunny? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/Aplysia_californica.jpg | 05:21 |
| kanzure | looks like something out of scp | 05:22 |
| eudoxia | where do you see the bunny, it looks like a slug | 05:22 |
| kragenjaviersita | looks like a scrotum with warts | 05:22 |
| eudoxia | i wonder what it tastes like | 05:23 |
| fenn | http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Bi1t0KO9bwQ/TbDye5xWuJI/AAAAAAAAAR8/PMe9c9bHD2A/s1600/cthulhubunny001.jpg | 05:24 |
| fenn | so anyway what else is Brain Corporation up to? | 05:25 |
| eudoxia | they have a nicer website now | 05:26 |
| eudoxia | oh god it's hijacked my scrolling, the horror, the horror | 05:26 |
| fenn | wait a minute, why did .wik return "ermentrout-kopell canonical model" | 05:27 |
| kanzure | genehacker: http://ccl.northwestern.edu/netlogo/models/ArtificialNeuralNet-Multilayer | 05:27 |
| kanzure | why netlogo | 05:28 |
| fenn | because neural networks. and logic | 05:29 |
| kanzure | thank you professor awesome | 05:29 |
| fenn | The "Logo" part is because NetLogo is a dialect of the Logo language. | 05:29 |
| fenn | "Net" is meant to evoke the decentralized, interconnected nature of the phenomena you can model with NetLogo, including network phenomena. It also refers to HubNet, the multiuser participatory simulation environment included in NetLogo. | 05:29 |
| fenn | the turtle graphics language? | 05:30 |
| fenn | "Logo is a multi-paradigm adaptation and dialect of Lisp, a functional programming language" | 05:30 |
| fenn | "Logo" is not an acronym. It was derived from the Greek logos meaning word or "thought" | 05:31 |
| eudoxia | what do neuralnetworks have to do with logo | 05:31 |
| fenn | seymour papert | 05:32 |
| genehacker | because with netlogo, I don't have to start from scratch, it has nice functions for making multiagent simulations | 05:32 |
| fenn | oh i totally misunderstood the question "why netlogo" | 05:34 |
| -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fhoususbchjmsqaf] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 05:35 | |
| fenn | i thought it was an etymology request | 05:35 |
| genehacker | although if there is something out there that is better for doing multiagent stuff I'd like to know | 05:39 |
| fenn | genehacker: the guy who wrote NEAT is (was?) at austin | 05:39 |
| fenn | oh wait you're in oregon | 05:40 |
| genehacker | NEAT? | 05:40 |
| genehacker | if it is agent based and recent I might know him | 05:41 |
| fenn | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NeuroEvolution_of_Augmented_Topologies | 05:41 |
| fenn | doesn't seem to explicitly have anything to do with agents | 05:41 |
| fenn | "The NEAT approach begins with a perceptron-like feed-forward network of only input neurons and output neurons. As evolution progresses through discrete steps, the complexity of the network's topology may grow, either by inserting a new neuron into a connection path, or by creating a new connection between (formerly unconnected) neurons. | 05:42 |
| fenn | HyperNEAT has been used for "multi-agent learning", checkers, legged robot control, evolving 3D printable objects | 05:44 |
| fenn | tho i gotta say i am not impressed with endlessforms.com | 05:44 |
| fenn | most of these approaches seem to suffer from a lack of input data | 05:45 |
| fenn | genehacker have you read "on intelligence"? | 05:45 |
| genehacker | no | 05:46 |
| fenn | if you're getting into neural networks, it might be worth your while, just so you have a basis to grow your understanding from | 05:46 |
| fenn | do you prefer mobi or pdf | 05:47 |
| genehacker | 05:47 | |
| yorick | epub! | 05:47 |
| genehacker | you can't display a full 3d cad model in epub | 05:48 |
| fenn | http://fennetic.net/irc/Jeff%20Hawkins%20-%20On%20Intelligence.pdf | 05:48 |
| fenn | good | 05:48 |
| fenn | i want to hook something like NEAT into puredata (the music synthesizer breadboard software) so i can watch/listen to it reacting to the environment in real time | 05:50 |
| -!- Boscop [me@unaffiliated/boscop] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 05:51 | |
| genehacker | and I want to evolve some really dumb robots | 05:51 |
| fenn | just go to the bar :) | 05:52 |
| kanzure | how's the robot revolt going | 05:54 |
| fenn | i wonder if the MIRI people are wringing their hands over this stuff or what | 05:54 |
| kanzure | no | 05:55 |
| -!- Boscop [~me@unaffiliated/boscop] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 05:55 | |
| kanzure | but pester steve if you want | 05:55 |
| fenn | so it's just faith in good old fashioned symbolic logic then? | 05:55 |
| kanzure | lots of aixi | 05:56 |
| fenn | .wik aixi | 05:56 |
| yoleaux | "AIXI (English pronunciation: /'ai̯k͡siː/) is a mathematical formalism for artificial general intelligence. It combines Solomonoff induction with sequential decision theory. AIXI was first proposed by Marcus Hutter in 2000 and the results below are proved in Hutter's 2005 book Universal Artificial Intelligence." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIXI | 05:56 |
| fenn | this means nothing to me | 05:56 |
| eudoxia | aixi got so much attention from the miri people, when are they going to build an aixi bitcoin trading bot or something | 05:56 |
| eudoxia | yes i know it's hyperboliexponentially complex, but some scaled-down versions run | 05:57 |
| kanzure | ask steve | 05:57 |
| fenn | steve is really bad at explaining things | 05:57 |
| kanzure | .title http://genofond.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7532 | 05:57 |
| yoleaux | Library Genesis: Miner's Hut / Барак старателей • View topic - Fundraiser for an additional heavy-duty LG-server | 05:57 |
| kanzure | they are asking around for donations again | 05:57 |
| kanzure | 1ENFY4h7ntGZbqwcwpQtXVFJrPnfXRHQLe | 05:57 |
| kanzure | Yandex money: 41001819963532 | 05:58 |
| kanzure | PayPal: 11_2004@bk.ru | 05:58 |
| kanzure | Webmoney: Z419450679979, R363698913531 | 05:58 |
| kanzure | "Plan B is encapsulated in LG: this is the support of all p2p networks, files in them are unkillable. There is plan C as well, Usenet, mostly implemented. Plan D is being discussed." | 05:59 |
| kanzure | "To find books after we die, download the database once in a while, you will need book hashes from there, they'll give you all the power. Download torrents and backup *.uzb to access books on Usenet." | 05:59 |
| fenn | plan D is the doomsday device | 05:59 |
| kanzure | plan k is kidnap all the librarians | 06:00 |
| fenn | pan l is liberate all the librarians? | 06:01 |
| kragenjaviersita | LG? | 06:01 |
| eudoxia | libgen | 06:01 |
| fenn | library genesis | 06:01 |
| kanzure | this donation request was circulated by eugen leitl, glad he's watching | 06:01 |
| * eudoxia should actually read postbiota emails | 06:02 | |
| fenn | has anyone been using AI like things to sort books by digitization quality? | 06:02 |
| fenn | there are a lot of databases with 10 copies of the same book, but it can't be pruned because then you risk dropping the better copy accidentally | 06:02 |
| kragenjaviersita | and a lot of the copies are terrible | 06:03 |
| fenn | but a computer should be able to know that books don't have words like, uh, <typical OCR error> | 06:04 |
| kragenjaviersita | if it did then it wouldn't be a typical OCR error | 06:04 |
| fenn | but no | 06:04 |
| fenn | hrm. | 06:05 |
| fenn | given two copies, one that has a high percentage of unrecognized spellings, choose the other | 06:05 |
| fenn | but OCR error isnt really the problem, it's bad encoding | 06:05 |
| eudoxia | you could also just test whether the pdf has text at all or is just a collection of images | 06:06 |
| -!- augur [~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 06:08 | |
| kragenjaviersita | not necessarily, fenn. the one with the lower percentage of unrecognized spellings might just have had its OCR more aggressively spell-checked | 06:11 |
| kragenjaviersita | like what you would do if the images were blurry and you had to guess more | 06:11 |
| fenn | sure, this is a simplistic algorithm which is why i was asking about "AI like things" which would hopefully get more accurate results | 06:12 |
| kragenjaviersita | you need to be sure your assessment process is more intelligent than whatever the person who did the OCR in the first place was using to produce it | 06:12 |
| kanzure | .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8592414 | 06:13 |
| yoleaux | Startups can now buy insurance against threat of patent trolls | Hacker News | 06:13 |
| kanzure | .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8591782 | 06:13 |
| yoleaux | Intro to Distributed Hash Tables | Hacker News | 06:13 |
| kanzure | .title http://www.freedomlayer.org/articles/dht_intro.html | 06:13 |
| yoleaux | FreedomLayer | Articles | Intro to Distributed Hash Tables (DHTs) | 06:13 |
| fenn | since i dont know what "intelligent" means, i'm going to say something like it needs to evaluate on an orthogonal basis to whatever OCR classification did | 06:13 |
| fenn | DHT is so 2002 | 06:14 |
| genehacker | speaking of patents, I've been trying to find the patents for this: www8.hp.com/us/en/commercial-printers/floater/3Dprinting.html | 06:14 |
| genehacker | to see how badly HP is going to mess up the AM industry | 06:15 |
| kragenjaviersita | AM? | 06:16 |
| eudoxia | additive manufacturing? | 06:16 |
| genehacker | yes | 06:17 |
| fenn | genehacker: have you seen it in person or is there some reason you care besides "it's HP"? | 06:22 |
| fenn | i mean thermal inkjet additive process isn't anything new or imaginative | 06:22 |
| fenn | they dont even show product images or example objects | 06:23 |
| genehacker | it's laser sintering without a laser, that doesn't need nitrogen, at a high print rate, in color | 06:23 |
| genehacker | hmmm... that seems to be the case | 06:24 |
| -!- Boscop_ [me@188.126.91.38] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 06:24 | |
| genehacker | I though HPs website would be better | 06:24 |
| fenn | ok here's one sample object http://www.forbes.com/sites/georgeanders/2014/10/29/hps-3d-print-breakthrough-could-push-rivals-out-of-business/ | 06:24 |
| genehacker | http://www.3ders.org//articles/20141029-hp-wants-to-rewrite-the-rules-of-3d-printing-with-new-multi-jet-fusion-tech.html | 06:25 |
| fenn | is it just colored wax? | 06:25 |
| genehacker | http://www.3ders.org//articles/20141029-hp-wants-to-rewrite-the-rules-of-3d-printing-with-new-multi-jet-fusion-tech.html | 06:25 |
| genehacker | no, according to some math I did it's probably nylon | 06:26 |
| fenn | hmm yeah it says powdered nylon in the forbes article | 06:26 |
| -!- Boscop [~me@unaffiliated/boscop] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 06:27 | |
| fenn | it uses vats of powder and jets fusable binder onto them | 06:27 |
| genehacker | not binder | 06:27 |
| fenn | uh, susceptor then | 06:27 |
| genehacker | ink, black ink | 06:28 |
| fenn | .wik susceptor | 06:28 |
| yoleaux | "A susceptor is a material used for its ability to absorb electromagnetic energy and convert it to heat (which is sometimes designed to be re-emitted as infrared thermal radiation)." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susceptor | 06:28 |
| genehacker | yeah | 06:28 |
| kanzure | suscepteum | 06:28 |
| fenn | is that your new altcoin | 06:29 |
| fenn | for susceptible people | 06:29 |
| genehacker | it's using teh same damn inkjet and ink as a 2d printer | 06:29 |
| kanzure | http://digitalinterface.blogspot.com/2014/03/strangecoin-proposal-for-nonlinear.html | 06:29 |
| -!- juri_ [~juri@vpn166.sdf.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 06:30 | |
| fenn | "readily acted upon;" | 06:30 |
| fenn | they're not really showing off the full-color capabilities with the sample prints | 06:31 |
| fenn | blue! and red! and yellow! | 06:31 |
| genehacker | in the real world, most people don't care about color | 06:31 |
| fenn | not true | 06:31 |
| genehacker | for industrial applications | 06:32 |
| fenn | if HP wants to increase the 3d printer market size they have to cater to non-industrial applications | 06:32 |
| fenn | the industrial market is saturated and has been for 20 years | 06:32 |
| kanzure | i wonder if there's a field of study like "theoretical microbiology" where people predict certain types of microbes that should exist in certain environments (living off of certain energy/resource gradients) and then go confirm their suspicions. | 06:32 |
| fenn | if you're building an oil refinery you can afford a laser sintering machine | 06:32 |
| fenn | or maybe that's an industrial fermenter.. | 06:33 |
| fenn | kanzure that's basically the entire study of extremophiles | 06:34 |
| genehacker | so the thing is this thing is faster and probably cheaper, which means more applications can use 3d printing | 06:35 |
| genehacker | the reason for no fullcolor capabiility could be a software limitation | 06:35 |
| fenn | it looks identical in process and result to some stuff i saw many years ago | 06:35 |
| fenn | the only newness is that HP is behind it | 06:35 |
| genehacker | you mean z-corp stuff? | 06:36 |
| genehacker | z-corp prints are structurally worthless | 06:36 |
| fenn | not z-corp | 06:36 |
| kanzure | oh right, people go looking for extremophiles | 06:37 |
| kanzure | but aren't those sort of obvious? | 06:37 |
| fenn | selective heat sintering | 06:37 |
| kanzure | "stuff ain't supposed to live there, hurr" | 06:37 |
| genehacker | which is in color? | 06:37 |
| genehacker | oh inhibition sintering | 06:37 |
| genehacker | the problem with that is the powder doesn't recycle easy | 06:38 |
| fenn | hmm not that either | 06:38 |
| fenn | it's the inverse of inhibition sintering | 06:39 |
| fenn | with a big 500W halogen lamp sweeping across the bed | 06:39 |
| genehacker | the personal factory thing? | 06:39 |
| genehacker | the resolution on that was horrible which is why it failed | 06:40 |
| fenn | no, it's like inhibition sintering except instead of applying something to get rid of the heat, you apply an ink that absorbs the heat | 06:40 |
| genehacker | which is what this is | 06:41 |
| fenn | i dont think it was full color but it doesn't take a genius to realize that humans can't see in infrared | 06:41 |
| fenn | whatever they probably just bought out whoever had developed it | 06:42 |
| -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 06:42 | |
| fenn | i wonder if it can be used on metal powders | 06:43 |
| fenn | with inorganic susceptors | 06:43 |
| genehacker | and I think the patent for that was in 2008 wihc means HP could own the market | 06:43 |
| genehacker | SIS works on metal powders | 06:43 |
| fenn | i'm not impressed with the quality of powder stuff actually | 06:44 |
| kragenjaviersita | melting metal powders with random stuff mixed into them tends to compromise their integrity | 06:44 |
| kragenjaviersita | I mean even a few percent of carbon will embrittle iron | 06:44 |
| fenn | even amateur DLP stereolithography is a million times better surface finish | 06:45 |
| kragenjaviersita | amateur DLP stereolithography doesn't use powder? | 06:45 |
| fenn | kragenjaviersita: but for example the stainless sintered powder cores are just used to soak up liquid bronze metal in the end | 06:45 |
| genehacker | yeah, but DLP parts degrade pretty badly with time and fast if you leave them in the sun | 06:45 |
| kragenjaviersita | or it polymerizes resin? | 06:46 |
| fenn | DLP uses UV or blue reactive resin | 06:46 |
| fenn | genehacker: really? i didn't know that | 06:46 |
| kragenjaviersita | fenn: yes, but bronze is also pretty sensitive to impurities | 06:46 |
| fenn | bronze is mostly impurities :P | 06:47 |
| fenn | .wik bronze | 06:47 |
| yoleaux | "Bronze is an alloy consisting primarily of copper and other metals. The addition of other metals (usually tin, sometimes arsenic), produces an alloy much harder than plain copper. The historical period where the archeological record contains many bronze artifacts is known as the Bronze Age." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze | 06:47 |
| genehacker | it's a dirty secret of the process | 06:47 |
| kragenjaviersita | genehacker: that surprises me, because I had a tooth made of UV-reactive resin for many years | 06:47 |
| kragenjaviersita | acrylic | 06:47 |
| kragenjaviersita | the dentist never warned me not to leave my mouth open in the sun | 06:47 |
| fenn | acrylic is non-reactive to UV; maybe there are other monomer resins used...? | 06:48 |
| fenn | polyester? | 06:49 |
| kragenjaviersita | yeah, I don't know how they did it. they told me it was acrylic but I didn't have a Raman spectrometer and now I no longer have the tooth | 06:49 |
| genehacker | to get it to plymerize you need stuff that generates free radicals when exposed to UV, these free radicals get trapped and eventually damage stuff | 06:49 |
| genehacker | or the sensistizer generates freeradicals | 06:50 |
| fenn | so dont add so much sensitizer | 06:50 |
| fenn | or add an antioxidant or free-radical quencher | 06:50 |
| fenn | i thought you had to put it in the sun to finish hardening and react all the sensitizer | 06:51 |
| genehacker | there's also problems with internal stresses that build up in the parts and slowly get released | 06:51 |
| fenn | " the metal of the 12th-century English Gloucester Candlestick is bronze containing a mixture of copper, zinc, tin, lead, nickel, iron, antimony, arsenic with an unusually large amount of silver" | 06:53 |
| kragenjaviersita | really? i'd think that would be a big problem with injection molding but not any of the additive processes | 06:53 |
| kragenjaviersita | the Gloucester Candlestick probably didn't have to have reproducible structural properties | 06:54 |
| genehacker | it is a huge problem in AM | 06:54 |
| kragenjaviersita | where do the stresses come from? | 06:55 |
| kragenjaviersita | I had no idea | 06:55 |
| fenn | in FDM it's due to differential cooling, same as in injection molding, but exaggerated because the process takes much longer | 06:56 |
| genehacker | making layers | 06:57 |
| fenn | i dont see how it would apply to photolithography though because there's no heat-shrinking involved because there's no melting involved | 06:57 |
| genehacker | polymerization causes shrinkage | 06:58 |
| kragenjaviersita | ah | 06:59 |
| -!- genehacker [~chatzilla@c-50-137-46-240.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91 [Firefox 32.0.3/20140924083558]] | 06:59 | |
| kragenjaviersita | I didn't have any idea about this | 06:59 |
| -!- genehacker [~chatzilla@c-50-137-46-240.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 07:01 | |
| kragenjaviersita | I mean I see the shrinkage in these PLA parts | 07:01 |
| fenn | paperbot: http://sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924013603000281 | 07:01 |
| kragenjaviersita | but I assumed that because the process was so slow it relieved all the stress | 07:01 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/%0A%20Study%20of%20shrinkage%20strains%20in%20a%20stereolithography%20cured%20acrylic%20photopolymer%20resin%0A%20.pdf | 07:01 |
| fenn | i only see this one paper | 07:02 |
| fenn | paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924013603000281/pdfft?md5=9244c09a67a21e3ca497b3057e0121c3&pid=1-s2.0-S0924013603000281-main.pdf | 07:04 |
| fenn | http://fennetic.net/irc/Study%20of%20shrinkage%20strains%20in%20a%20stereolithography%20cured%20acrylic%20photopolymer%20resin.pdf | 07:06 |
| fenn | table 1 doesn't have sensible units | 07:10 |
| -!- Merovoth [~Merovoth@gateway/tor-sasl/merovoth] has quit [] | 07:12 | |
| -!- augur [~augur@ip-64-134-240-197.public.wayport.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 07:12 | |
| fenn | i cant tell if this is a real problem or a "we can only detect it using interferometry" level effect | 07:12 |
| fenn | i don't see anyone complaining about it though | 07:12 |
| kragenjaviersita | I'd think that you could measure it with polarimetry pretty easily | 07:13 |
| fenn | i think they're measuring the warpage, not the actual strain | 07:15 |
| -!- Qfwfq [~WashIrvin@unaffiliated/washirving] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 07:19 | |
| -!- genehacker [~chatzilla@c-50-137-46-240.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 07:25 | |
| ParahSailin_ | people have been trying to come up with expanding monomers | 07:33 |
| kanzure | paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924013603000281/pdfft?md5=9244c09a67a21e3ca497b3057e0121c3&pid=1-s2.0-S0924013603000281-main.pdf | 07:41 |
| kanzure | can someone just fix paperbot ugh | 07:43 |
| kanzure | revert nmz787's changes if anything | 07:44 |
| -!- bbrittain [~tiktaalik@2601:6:1781:1800:f95e:c6f3:c01b:4634] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 07:45 | |
| kanzure | bbrittain: ask ParahSailin_ | 07:46 |
| ParahSailin_ | i havent heard of onecodex | 07:47 |
| -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 07:47 | |
| kanzure | yes but what about equivalents | 07:48 |
| ParahSailin_ | i dunno what they do | 07:51 |
| -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-56-10-35.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: leaving] | 07:53 | |
| bbrittain | I'll ask some folks at work what they think | 07:53 |
| ParahSailin_ | i guess they have something faster than blast? | 07:53 |
| bbrittain | thats what it looks like | 07:54 |
| bbrittain | but really, blast is usually good enough | 07:54 |
| ParahSailin_ | there are lots of things faster than blast, they need to be more specific | 07:54 |
| bbrittain | why would I pay for that? | 07:54 |
| * bbrittain wouldn't | 07:54 | |
| -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 07:55 | |
| ParahSailin_ | well if you have a metagenomic library of short reads and you want taxonomic classification, then you need stuff | 07:56 |
| -!- Merovoth [~Merovoth@gateway/tor-sasl/merovoth] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 07:56 | |
| ParahSailin_ | i know of people who use bwt for that, and i know of people who precomputed an index of 36mers for a huge number of things from nr/nt | 07:57 |
| ParahSailin_ | i wouldnt trust a secret algorithm for accuracy | 07:58 |
| ParahSailin_ | how do i verify it | 07:58 |
| -!- augur [~augur@ip-64-134-240-197.public.wayport.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 07:58 | |
| -!- augur [~augur@ip-64-134-240-197.public.wayport.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 07:59 | |
| bbrittain | dunno | 08:00 |
| bbrittain | there is a lot of software which I don't know why bio people trust it | 08:00 |
| * bbrittain shrugs | 08:00 | |
| bbrittain | ParahSailin_: what do you do? | 08:01 |
| ParahSailin_ | bioinfo crap | 08:01 |
| -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 08:02 | |
| bbrittain | ParahSailin_: is that not what you wanna do? | 08:03 |
| ParahSailin_ | its fine | 08:03 |
| -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] | 08:10 | |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 08:13 | |
| -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 08:18 | |
| bbrittain | Microsoft opensourced .net, and humanity harpooned a comet | 08:18 |
| bbrittain | today is a good day | 08:18 |
| -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 08:19 | |
| ParahSailin_ | msft bought mono and opensourced it? | 08:19 |
| ParahSailin_ | didnt they buy xamarin? | 08:20 |
| kanzure | "A simple, highly commented, rootkit which attacks GCC and Python" https://github.com/mrrrgn/simple-rootkit | 08:20 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/mrrrgn/simple-rootkit/blob/master/simple-rootkit.c | 08:20 |
| -!- augur [~augur@ip-64-134-240-197.public.wayport.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 08:20 | |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 08:25 | |
| -!- augur [~augur@ip-64-134-240-197.public.wayport.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 08:26 | |
| -!- juri_ [~juri@vpn166.sdf.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 08:31 | |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] | 08:32 | |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 08:32 | |
| -!- augur [~augur@ip-64-134-240-197.public.wayport.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 08:34 | |
| -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@134.134.139.76] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 08:38 | |
| -!- sandeep [~sandeep@117.254.220.104] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 08:45 | |
| -!- sandeep [~sandeep@117.254.220.104] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] | 08:51 | |
| -!- Zinglon [~Zinglon@D549A77D.cm-10-1a.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 09:05 | |
| -!- juri__ [~juri@50.242.254.37] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 09:05 | |
| -!- juri_ [~juri@vpn166.sdf.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 09:07 | |
| kanzure | fenn: gitian stuff can be asked about in #bitcoin-dev and there's also things that sometimes happen in #bitcoin | 09:08 |
| kanzure | (er, like now) | 09:08 |
| -!- sandeep [~sandeep@117.254.216.177] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 09:09 | |
| tallakahath | fenn: I have no reason to have iodine deficiency unless I have malabsorption, and may have iodine excess. Thyroid function is normal according to T3, T4, and TSH levels. | 09:11 |
| tallakahath | (low end of 'normal' for T3 and high end of 'normal' for TSH but within bounds) | 09:12 |
| fenn | tallakahath: good to know. one thing i didn't pick up on from the logs was your fat intake. fat is important for after meal satiety and can be neglected in various dietary regimes | 09:13 |
| fenn | especially since you do calorie counting and this can lead to avoiding fat | 09:14 |
| tallakahath | fenn: Keto man. Keto. | 09:16 |
| fenn | also too much beta-ergic drugs (caffeine, clen) can make you have anxiety attacks long term | 09:16 |
| tallakahath | I've had... one true panic-attack ever, and that was distinctly caused by me misreading a research result. :P | 09:17 |
| fenn | hehe | 09:17 |
| tallakahath | Even now on my 'low carb' (<=100 g net carbs/day, focus on fibrous vegetables and complex carbohydrates) setup I get ~60 g of fat/day | 09:17 |
| -!- juri__ [~juri@50.242.254.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 09:17 | |
| tallakahath | Er I lied, make that 50g | 09:18 |
| -!- juri_ [~juri@vpn166.sdf.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 09:20 | |
| fenn | i eat more fat than that and i'm not "keto" | 09:20 |
| tallakahath | What's your TDEE, tho? This is roughly ~40% of my kcal makeup | 09:21 |
| fenn | i have no idea | 09:21 |
| tallakahath | When I was on keto I was on closer to 70 g of fat/day | 09:21 |
| tallakahath | For my height/weight both of those values should be more than enough for the needs of my endocrine system and satiety | 09:22 |
| -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-54-161-215-136.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 09:23 | |
| fenn | i mostly sit around and use a computer, i'm not pedaling a bike taxi or anything | 09:23 |
| JayDugger | Total Daily EE? | 09:23 |
| -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 09:23 | |
| -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-54-162-63-175.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 09:23 | |
| fenn | the number of electrical engineers you eat every day | 09:23 |
| JayDugger | Eww... | 09:23 |
| tallakahath | The units made sense in the original lit. :) | 09:23 |
| JayDugger | I've seen what they eat. | 09:23 |
| tallakahath | Those were darker times. Before electricity was harnessed, EEs weren't very useful, so they were raised mostly for slaughter | 09:24 |
| fenn | sad but true | 09:24 |
| JayDugger | That makes sense. Kinder than drowning them I guess. | 09:24 |
| tallakahath | Back then, though, they were at least allowed to roam free, and had wide swaths of land to roam around. Now they're confined to tiny little research labs and get very little sun or movement; its quite cruel really. | 09:25 |
| kanzure | that's what the pacing hallways are for | 09:25 |
| tallakahath | Hardly the same. | 09:25 |
| JayDugger | And the prods and fences. | 09:25 |
| tallakahath | I wouldn't see my roommate for days at a time, freshman year, because the EE building had some well-stocked vending machines, a shower, a good sleepin' couch, and the EE stockroom, sooooo... | 09:26 |
| fenn | now i'm thinking of "technology parks" as a sort of healthy happy pen like in the addiction study "Rat Park" | 09:26 |
| tallakahath | But does this come to the same, terrifying end of Rat Utopia? | 09:29 |
| Guest34189 | fenn: thanks for the On Intelligence link, it's been on my list to read | 09:29 |
| tallakahath | There were distinct times during my undergrad that I became convinced that college/uni were all a sham, and we were all actually mentally deficient, and they'd built this whole little ecosystem for us to play around in and pretend the nonsense were spouting made any sense and pretend that we were all smart kids or something, and we'd 'graduate' and the illusion would be over | 09:30 |
| tallakahath | BUt now I'm getting pessimistic *and* procrastinating on going to class | 09:30 |
| kanzure | Guest34189: you should bug fenn about capability representation | 09:30 |
| -!- Guest34189 is now known as maaku | 09:30 | |
| kanzure | tallakahath: pessimism is a virtue | 09:30 |
| maaku | capability representation? | 09:31 |
| kanzure | the thing that your programming language is supposed to be reasoning about and doing estimations about | 09:31 |
| kanzure | for engineering planning | 09:31 |
| kanzure | the "details" part. | 09:31 |
| * kanzure goes back to pretending to fix SelectCoins | 09:31 | |
| yorick | tallakahath: weren't there rat utopias that didn't fail? | 09:32 |
| maaku | oh i thought you were talking about this : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capability-based_security | 09:32 |
| maaku | what's wrong with SelectCoins? | 09:32 |
| kanzure | just some unimplemented stuff | 09:32 |
| kanzure | i don't want to have to do signing in the same wallet | 09:33 |
| kanzure | so i want to give it a list of unspents to assume are under key control | 09:33 |
| tallakahath | yorick: Yes, but I believe context specifies the ones that did. | 09:33 |
| kanzure | also i might have a list of unsigned transactions to feed into it for it to make assumptions about (these transactions are unsigned and therefore not in a mempool or nothin') | 09:34 |
| kanzure | actually i figure most of this will probably involve me editing createrawtransaction or implementing a new rpc command | 09:35 |
| maaku | kanzure: it might be better to just pull out the coin selection logic and make that accessible | 09:36 |
| fenn | Rat Park was an addiction study with plenty of space for the rats; (not enough time for them to breed) but around the same time there was another study which ended up with all sorts of "sexual deviancy" and antisocial preening behaviors | 09:37 |
| kanzure | maaku: pull out coin selection stuff into a rpc command? | 09:37 |
| maaku | kanzure: for what you're doing, yeah | 09:37 |
| maaku | with a flag to use wallet addresses or not | 09:37 |
| maaku | i don't know, it really depends on your application | 09:38 |
| kanzure | right.. i don't know how i am going to do the "here's the list of outputs to consider" or something. | 09:38 |
| kanzure | well, it's basically an "offline" wallet. signing is done somewhere.. else.. and i don't want to implement my own wallet really. | 09:38 |
| maaku | the general assumption on #bitcoin-dev is that for these applications they implement their own coin selection logic | 09:39 |
| maaku | bitcoind's isn't very smart anyways | 09:39 |
| kanzure | are there any good implementations that i can look at? | 09:39 |
| kanzure | ideally separate implementations in their own library somewhere | 09:39 |
| maaku | well bitcoinj has one, as does every other wallet library i'm sure | 09:39 |
| maaku | but you could probably roll your own. it's a form of the knapsack selection problem | 09:40 |
| kanzure | i'll probably be using bitcoind's transaction index and utxo index etc | 09:40 |
| kanzure | because i'd rather just use bitcoind's implementation of transaction indexing, since it handles reorgs just fine etc | 09:41 |
| maaku | kanzure: if you can't make a wallet by calling rpcs against bitcoin for querying those indices, it's a bug | 09:41 |
| maaku | although i'm pretty sure you can't :) | 09:41 |
| kanzure | what are the blockers there? | 09:41 |
| maaku | there are some missing rpcs, just no one has written them | 09:41 |
| kanzure | which ones do you have in mind? | 09:41 |
| maaku | well e.g. i don't think there's a way to query blocks for transactions | 09:42 |
| maaku | you can do that on the p2p protocol using bloom filters | 09:42 |
| maaku | but there's no rpc for that | 09:42 |
| kanzure | i don't think i need that one | 09:42 |
| maaku | how do you know your transactions then? | 09:42 |
| kanzure | ideally i don't | 09:42 |
| -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] | 09:42 | |
| kanzure | notify hooks might be enough there | 09:43 |
| kanzure | the existing ones, i mean | 09:43 |
| maaku | but the outputs aren't being tracked by bitcoind, right? | 09:44 |
| maaku | because you don't have the signing keys in the wallet | 09:44 |
| kanzure | i would be okay with bitcoind tracking those outputs anyway | 09:44 |
| maaku | are you using the watch-only address patch? | 09:44 |
| kanzure | not yet, but i am thinking about it | 09:44 |
| -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 09:46 | |
| fenn | bitcoin makes me sad | 09:47 |
| maaku | ? | 09:47 |
| fenn | it's so blah | 09:47 |
| maaku | that's so descriptive | 09:47 |
| fenn | i haven't figured it out yet | 09:47 |
| kanzure | which thing are you talking about.. bitcoind's p2p protocol, bitcoin-qt, proof-of-work, bitcoind, etc.? | 09:48 |
| kanzure | a lot of things are called "bitcoin" | 09:48 |
| fenn | all the problems it's trying to solve are about people trying to screw over other people | 09:49 |
| fenn | and in the process is makes even more problems like that | 09:49 |
| kanzure | more problems like what | 09:49 |
| fenn | "bad incentives" | 09:49 |
| kanzure | bitcoin did not invent bad incentives. those existed, yo. | 09:49 |
| fenn | like every time someone pastes a link in #bitcoin you get spambot telling you how DANGEROUS it is to FOLLOW A LINK!!! | 09:50 |
| maaku | fenn: bitcoin created that problem? | 09:51 |
| fenn | but even this is not what makes my eyes glaze over every time i read about it | 09:51 |
| maaku | bitcoin solves a problem that hitherto had no solution -- global concensus in an adversarial environment | 09:52 |
| fenn | if someone had set up a blockchain software without the money aspect it never would have attracted any attention | 09:53 |
| fenn | "oh look another digital notary" | 09:54 |
| fenn | nobody gave a shit about hashcash | 09:54 |
| fenn | the email spam prevention thing | 09:54 |
| kanzure | hal seemed to care, even did rpow stuff | 09:54 |
| fenn | but now that there's money involved i'm supposed to care? | 09:54 |
| maaku | no, not true. bitcoin is not another digital notary. it's a dynamic, anonymous membership signture, something which never existed before | 09:55 |
| fenn | it's a distributed notary | 09:55 |
| maaku | wihch has never existed before | 09:55 |
| maaku | it's true that without the currency it wouldn't have been hyped as much, but it'd still be revolutionary | 09:55 |
| -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fhoususbchjmsqaf] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] | 09:57 | |
| fenn | i blame peter thiel for selling out on the idea of cryptocurrency while developing paypal :P | 10:01 |
| maaku | don't we all | 10:02 |
| fenn | i read cryptonomicon many years ago and was like, is this fiction? | 10:03 |
| -!- augur [~augur@206-196-184-33.wireless.umd.edu] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 10:06 | |
| fenn | "In March 2010, PayPal froze donations to Cryptome, seizing over $5300 of in-transit donations. ayPal refused to inform Cryptome of the reason for this action, claiming that to disclose why the donations had been confiscated would violate Cryptome's own privacy." | 10:08 |
| fenn | down the rabbit hole | 10:08 |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 10:10 | |
| -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-msmiipgdwojwhuik] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 10:16 | |
| nmz787_i | hasn't it proven to not be anonymous? | 10:16 |
| maaku | nmz787_i: bitcoin is pseudo-anonymous | 10:20 |
| fenn | .title http://www.halplotkin.com/cnbcs029.htm | 10:22 |
| yoleaux | Beam Me up Some Cash | 10:22 |
| fenn | "PDA owners can use their device's infrared port to exchange cash with one another or pay bills at locations equipped with an infrared reader." | 10:22 |
| fenn | uh.. that was their big idea? really? | 10:22 |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 10:23 | |
| heath | https://twitter.com/Philae2014/status/532593337585651713 | 10:25 |
| heath | image right before comet landing | 10:25 |
| nmz787_i | heath: what's the junk in the top-right cornere? | 10:27 |
| nmz787_i | corner | 10:27 |
| nmz787_i | is that the studio spotlight where they filmed star wars? | 10:28 |
| fenn | it's evidence of an ancient alien civilization | 10:31 |
| -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] | 10:45 | |
| heath | nmz787_i: yeah, i'm pretty sure this was faked as well :P | 10:45 |
| -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 10:47 | |
| Qfwfq | "Anonymouth is a Java-based application that aims to give users to tools and knowledge needed to begin anonymizing documents they have written. It does this by firing up JStylo libraries (an author detection application also develped by PSAL) to detect stylometric patterns and determine features (like word length, bigrams, trigrams, etc.) that the user should remove/add to help obsure their style and identity." ... | 10:49 |
| Qfwfq | ... https://github.com/psal/anonymouth | 10:49 |
| -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] | 10:49 | |
| -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 10:51 | |
| -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] | 10:51 | |
| -!- augur [~augur@206-196-184-33.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 10:53 | |
| -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 10:54 | |
| Qfwfq | "We study techniques for identifying an anonymous author via linguistic stylometry, i.e., comparing the writing style against a corpus of texts of known authorship. We exper- imentally demonstrate the effectiveness of our techniques with as many as 100,000 candidate authors. Given the increasing availability of writing samples online, our result has serious implications for anonymity and free speech - anonymous blogger or ... | 10:55 |
| Qfwfq | ... whistleblower may be unmasked unless they take steps to obfuscate their writing style. [..] In over 20% of cases, our classifiers can correctly identify an anonymous author given a corpus of texts from 100,000 authors; in about 35% of cases the correct author is one of the top 20 guesses. If we allow the classifier the option of not making a guess, via confidence estimation we are able to increase the precision of the top guess ... | 10:55 |
| Qfwfq | ... from 20% to over 80% with only a halving of recall." http://www.randomwalker.info/publications/author-identification-draft.pdf | 10:56 |
| -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] | 10:57 | |
| -!- augur [~augur@206-196-184-33.wireless.umd.edu] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 11:00 | |
| -!- genehacker [~chatzilla@8-12.ptpg.oregonstate.edu] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 11:01 | |
| tallakahath | Is Anonymouth any more effective than shuttling the text back and forth in google translate's innards a few times? | 11:04 |
| tallakahath | (though I suppose it should be more readable, at the end) | 11:05 |
| -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 11:05 | |
| Qfwfq | I can't find any studies on its efficacy (though the methodology in the Naranyan paper should work fine). Even if you're traffic is obfuscated, though, with your approach Google have the cleartext. | 11:07 |
| Qfwfq | I'm curious about how much this normalisation process can be automated without sacrificing comprehensibility. | 11:09 |
| Qfwfq | I don't think any free machine translation systems are on par with Google's. I mean, their corpus alone.. | 11:10 |
| yorick | I don't think any paid ones would be either, they're doing quite a lot of the research. Maybe microsoft could beat them | 11:11 |
| tallakahath | I mean from a standpoint of effectiveness of obfuscation, not a standpoint of 'google can still identify you' | 11:13 |
| kanzure | unfortunately sending text through google translate means that google has your text | 11:13 |
| tallakahath | Tho at least some of google's translation services are offline'able | 11:13 |
| kanzure | game over | 11:13 |
| -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 11:14 | |
| tallakahath | So use the offline standalone google translate services and ensure that your virtual env never calls home? | 11:14 |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 11:25 | |
| kanzure | that would help | 11:28 |
| bbrittain | but does the offline google translate really have the corpus to make a decent translation? | 11:29 |
| Qfwfq | bbrittain: Compare http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-bYeYA6ek9J0/UVQM1a8tQ_I/AAAAAAABIsM/G1SLNlaHbgo/s640/offline-google-translate-4.png. | 11:29 |
| maaku | the online translate doesn't make decent translations | 11:29 |
| heath | more trap music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYweg6GbNGs | 11:30 |
| kanzure | obvioulsy the right thing to do is use the satoshi nakamoto text corpus | 11:30 |
| kanzure | .title | 11:31 |
| yoleaux | Oiki - Groove [OFFICIAL 1080 HD] - YouTube | 11:31 |
| Qfwfq | Where's the source code? Where're the language pack dumps? Do I need to borrow an Android and MITM the download, or..? https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.android.apps.translate | 11:31 |
| bbrittain | so weird | 11:31 |
| yorick | heath: why would I want this in 1080p? | 11:31 |
| heath | yorick: no clue | 11:31 |
| yorick | Qfwfq: there are apps where you can paste this link and get the package back, and you can decompile that | 11:32 |
| yorick | mitm'ing an android probably wouldn't work because it should download over https if it's any kind of smart about it | 11:32 |
| kanzure | i have copies of most versions of most free android apps | 11:32 |
| Qfwfq | yorick: I'm more interested in the language packs then the binary. | 11:32 |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 11:32 | |
| kanzure | in case anyone would find that useful | 11:32 |
| Qfwfq | yorick: Just modify the root cert store to include one on your laptop. | 11:33 |
| yorick | Qfwfq: http://www.apkmirror.com/ should have the binary, and that should have information on where it gets the language pack... somewhere | 11:33 |
| Qfwfq | Sweet. | 11:34 |
| -!- Boscop_ [me@188.126.91.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 11:39 | |
| -!- FourFire [~FourFire@77.88.71.253] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 11:39 | |
| fenn | wow that offline translate is pretty good | 11:39 |
| * bbrittain sighs | 11:43 | |
| bbrittain | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8597061 | 11:43 |
| -!- genehacker [~chatzilla@8-12.ptpg.oregonstate.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 11:44 | |
| heath | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2rFrtXxa0o | 11:50 |
| yoleaux | (HQ) Celldweller - Tough Guy - YouTube | 11:50 |
| heath | music | 11:50 |
| heath | crap | 11:50 |
| heath | ignore | 11:50 |
| heath | http://d.mrtzc.ch/d_ueVmeR1.mp3 | 11:52 |
| heath | that | 11:52 |
| heath | hm, whever the instrumental is, that's what you want :) | 11:53 |
| heath | wherever* | 11:53 |
| ParahSailin_ | turtles can breath through their anus | 12:04 |
| kanzure | huh, my portable keyboard has started to crack in half | 12:06 |
| kanzure | typing so fast that it splits the keyboard | 12:06 |
| fenn | interesting list https://www.ycombinator.com/rfs/ | 12:07 |
| kanzure | where were you when those were being discussed in here | 12:08 |
| fenn | those? | 12:08 |
| kanzure | those requests for startups | 12:08 |
| fenn | i have no idea, i don't remember that | 12:08 |
| kanzure | because you weren't here | 12:09 |
| fenn | right... | 12:09 |
| fenn | anyway it looks a lot like the hplusroadmap statement of purpose or whatever we called it | 12:09 |
| fenn | except for all that government jobs stuff | 12:09 |
| kanzure | yes i don't know if it should be surprising that doing useful things would turn out to be profitable | 12:10 |
| heath | visit http://nanotechx.com/music/celldweller__tough-guy__instrumental.mp3 in a few hours when dns changes take effect | 12:10 |
| kanzure | i don't know how ycombinator has been handling its hardware projects so far | 12:11 |
| kanzure | it just don't work the same as software | 12:11 |
| fenn | i have this venn diagram in mind of (things that are (useful/profitable) and stuff) | 12:11 |
| fenn | bad diagram | 12:11 |
| kanzure | many of those things are not profitable- just designed to grow massive, see growth.html etc... | 12:12 |
| kanzure | i mean, not profitable at first | 12:12 |
| kanzure | or for very long strentches of time for that matter | 12:12 |
| fenn | set of things that are useful and set of things that are profitable overlap | 12:12 |
| kanzure | *stretches | 12:12 |
| kanzure | would those portable fission batteries be useful for quadcopters | 12:13 |
| bbrittain | I like the call for startups | 12:13 |
| bbrittain | I naively think that ycombinator might be taking some of it's excessive profit and doing cool things with it | 12:13 |
| bbrittain | I especially like #4 :P | 12:14 |
| fenn | bbrittain: how come your blog only has two entries and one is about the software used to render the blog? | 12:14 |
| bbrittain | fenn: because I'm a lazy person | 12:14 |
| fenn | why even write a blog-renderer if you only have one post? | 12:14 |
| bbrittain | who has written more blog engines than blogposts | 12:14 |
| bbrittain | one of them is a lot more fun | 12:14 |
| bbrittain | plus I always delude myself that I'll write | 12:15 |
| fenn | #4 is biotech? | 12:15 |
| bbrittain | I should really just replace that site with a static page | 12:15 |
| bbrittain | ja | 12:15 |
| fenn | ikiwiki processes markdown and spits out static html | 12:15 |
| fenn | you update pages by pushing to the repository | 12:16 |
| fenn | you probably already know this | 12:16 |
| kanzure | not sure why ginkgo decided to go through ycombinator | 12:16 |
| fenn | i thought they were already hooked into the boston scene | 12:17 |
| bbrittain | we are, and it makes sense | 12:17 |
| bbrittain | sorta | 12:17 |
| kanzure | haha | 12:17 |
| bbrittain | we would have been fine without it, but it gives us a west coast connection | 12:17 |
| bbrittain | and that connection brings in $$$ | 12:17 |
| fenn | what does ginkgo do again? consulting? | 12:18 |
| kanzure | fenn: you should go through the list and jot down the obvious ideas. i did this a while ago but i guess that got deleted. | 12:18 |
| bbrittain | no, we make bespoke organisms | 12:18 |
| kanzure | s/obvious/obvious to you or me but not to everyone else | 12:19 |
| kanzure | making organisms can still count as consulting, you know | 12:19 |
| fenn | kanzure: like ideas for startups? | 12:19 |
| kanzure | actually not necessarily | 12:19 |
| fenn | i dont even know what a startup is anyway | 12:19 |
| bbrittain | no, consulting means giving advice. I don't think our organisms are that advanced yet. | 12:19 |
| kanzure | "future technology that will have to happen or that will happen" | 12:19 |
| kanzure | not startup ideas necessarily | 12:19 |
| kanzure | i mean specifically in response to their requests (rather than just aimless ideation) | 12:20 |
| fenn | but the buttered-cat-toast device must have its day in the sun | 12:20 |
| fenn | "will happen" eh | 12:20 |
| kanzure | yeah somehow i don't think that's high on your priority list | 12:20 |
| kanzure | "will happen" yes | 12:21 |
| fenn | i could point out that you committed the armchair transhumanist's worst sin, but i'm not religious | 12:22 |
| kanzure | arguably that's not true here | 12:23 |
| kanzure | like, the reason why everyone hates kurzweil is because the last time he groundtruthed anything was ocr | 12:23 |
| kanzure | well, among other reasons | 12:23 |
| kanzure | i am only half here at the moment. | 12:24 |
| kanzure | maybe 10% here. | 12:24 |
| fenn | you are becoming an ephemeral being of light and energy | 12:24 |
| bbrittain | lucky bastard | 12:24 |
| kanzure | no, i'm just pretending to leave | 12:24 |
| kanzure | but it's not working very well | 12:24 |
| tallakahath | You need to increase your fakeness meter | 12:31 |
| bbrittain | tallakahath: who does? | 12:31 |
| fenn | bbrittain: did you know about the vaccine against tooth cavities? | 12:31 |
| bbrittain | fenn: isn't this where they replace mouth bacteria with ones that can't make lactic acid? | 12:32 |
| fenn | mid-1990s some biologist came up with a strain of ... streptococcus? that out-competed S. mutans, preventing cavities, but they didn't let it loose in the wild because it would spread and they didnt know what the consequences might bee | 12:32 |
| tallakahath | kanzure does. So he'll disappear. | 12:33 |
| bbrittain | cowards | 12:33 |
| tallakahath | Along these lines, is there a reason you can't innoculate someone lactose intolerant with lactose-digesting gut bacteria? | 12:34 |
| fenn | "Another approach is being pursued by BASF, focused on replacing native lactobacillus flora with a variety dubbed L. anti-caries, which prevents S. mutans from binding to enamel. However, it is not a long-term vaccination in that no attempt is being made to have a self-sustaining population of L. anti-caries. The intent is that the L. anti-caries population would be frequently replenished | 12:34 |
| fenn | through use of a chewing gum containing the organism." and more importantly will provide a recurring revenue stream | 12:34 |
| kanzure | that may not be called inoculation | 12:35 |
| bbrittain | fenn: human level health care actually has little interest to me. Too much regulation, too complex of systems, too much initial capital investment | 12:35 |
| bbrittain | I like prokaryotes. | 12:35 |
| tallakahath | According to google definitions, "introduce (an infective agent) into an organism. | 12:35 |
| tallakahath | "it can be inoculated into laboratory animals"" | 12:35 |
| kanzure | infective agent. hrm. | 12:36 |
| fenn | the first vaccine was an infectious disease (sort of) | 12:37 |
| nmz787_i | tallakahath: lactose intolerance is probably something that has problems after the guy... i.e. once the lactose gets into your bloodstream. There are fecal transfer therapies though for various things... drinking raw milk would be much more effective though likely, since it has lactase still intact. | 12:38 |
| nmz787_i | after the gut* | 12:38 |
| fenn | oo i should put this on the wiki | 12:38 |
| tallakahath | I thought lactose intolerance was lactase not getting digested in the right part of the gut, making it to the lower intestine, and then being broken down by a different set of bacteria that have byproducts of gas and water-drawing? | 12:39 |
| tallakahath | Er, lactose not lactase | 12:39 |
| tallakahath | Damn | 12:39 |
| fenn | tallakahath: unfortunately you don't really want a lot of bacteria running around your small intestine, so that scheme won't work | 12:41 |
| fenn | however you could conceivably do gene therapy to re-enable the lactase gene | 12:41 |
| nmz787_i | tallakahath: that could be an issue, but I always heard lactose-intolerance as an issue of self-made-lactase not being upregulated after childhood, and that some folks were significantly lower in their endogenous concentrations than others | 12:41 |
| nmz787_i | fenn: huh? read up on fecal transfer... G.I. be full of bacteria | 12:42 |
| nmz787_i | tallakahath: but yeah just drinking raw milk would clear up a lot of that, since again, it has functional lactase present | 12:42 |
| kanzure | tallakahath: would work okay for gluten | 12:43 |
| -!- Boscop [~me@unaffiliated/boscop] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 12:43 | |
| fenn | "Unlike the colon (or large bowel), which is rich with bacteria, the small bowel usually has fewer than 104 organisms per millilitre." | 12:44 |
| fenn | 10^4 | 12:44 |
| fenn | i'd consider that a small number | 12:44 |
| nmz787_i | paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0140673665909220 | 12:45 |
| fenn | ascorbate deficiency in the human organism, a common occurrence | 12:46 |
| nmz787_i | fenn: FWIW milk is allowed to have 7*10^5 white cow blood cells in the U.S. at max | 12:46 |
| fenn | while you're in there digging around the genome, there are a number of minor repairs that have been bugging me... | 12:47 |
| fenn | milk contains lactase? who knew | 12:48 |
| nmz787_i | only functional in non-pasteurized/non-sterilized | 12:48 |
| nmz787_i | I think there are also implications for K2 levels... but I could be wrong about that, jrayhawk would know | 12:49 |
| nmz787_i | he also has reasons other than cooked-lactase for not liking milk though | 12:49 |
| fenn | i don't think raw milk has any lactase, unless it's been contaminated with bacteria that produce lactase | 12:49 |
| jrayhawk | it has lactase | 12:50 |
| jrayhawk | tallakahath: from what I gather of clinical anecdote, your intuitions on gut flora and lactose are practically correct. | 12:51 |
| tallakahath | Hrm, what if you instead put new bacteria in the large intestine that can break down lactose without all the gas and bloating | 12:52 |
| tallakahath | I wonder if that's a thing that can be done | 12:52 |
| nmz787_i | tallakahath: fecal transfer therapy | 12:52 |
| kanzure | also known as butt stuff | 12:52 |
| jrayhawk | Lactose intolerance symptoms, most notably bloating, are caused by lactose-digesting bacteria, so it's a matter of using strains that don't produce hydrogen. | 12:52 |
| tallakahath | Well, more, engineering the necessary bacteria with a breakdown pathway | 12:52 |
| tallakahath | Yeah | 12:52 |
| nmz787_i | tallakahath: http://humanfoodproject.com/rebecoming-human-happened-day-replaced-99-genes-body-hunter-gatherer/ | 12:53 |
| tallakahath | Does this mean kcal yields are different for milk products for folks with and without lactose intolerance? | 12:53 |
| nmz787_i | and the follow-up http://humanfoodproject.com/microbial-diversity-sometimes-sometimes-dont/ | 12:53 |
| tallakahath | (People with lactase digest the lactose into sugars used for energy, people without lactase bypass those sugars) | 12:53 |
| jrayhawk | There have/are also a bunch of RCTs going on lately for fecal transplants and IBD/IBS/Crohn's/Colitis. | 12:53 |
| tallakahath | Hrm | 12:53 |
| jrayhawk | The hope is to get it down to a pill people can take. | 12:53 |
| jrayhawk | Fecal transplants have some astonishing efficacy for those | 12:54 |
| * nmz787_i gulps coffee loaded with tons of half-n-half | 12:54 | |
| -!- Boscop_ [me@178.73.219.200] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 12:54 | |
| nmz787_i | oh, jrayhawk, cow is at the butcher | 12:55 |
| fenn | noooo bessie | 12:55 |
| jrayhawk | oh, cool | 12:56 |
| nmz787_i | jrayhawk: I'm thinking i'll get 1/3 ground, 1/4 steak-ums-like thin slices, and the rest as steaks and roasts... planning to make a ton of jerky and then have easy steak-ums in the freezer (though these will likely oxidize faster with increased surface area) | 12:56 |
| tallakahath | nmz787_i: Vacuum seal those steak-ums? | 12:57 |
| nmz787_i | jrayhawk: I will let you know when I have the goods back home | 12:57 |
| nmz787_i | tallakahath: yeah I was thinking that, will have to price a machine and compare to the butcher if they have that option | 12:57 |
| fenn | polyethylene is a terrible oxygen barrier | 12:57 |
| nmz787_i | at least they wouldn't freezer burn | 12:58 |
| nmz787_i | (dry out, right)? | 12:58 |
| jrayhawk | The sublimation barrier is more what we'd care about. | 12:58 |
| tallakahath | Vacuum sealers are nice and generally useful tho | 12:58 |
| -!- Boscop [~me@unaffiliated/boscop] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 12:58 | |
| tallakahath | Mostly 'cause it turns out a lot of commercial packaging can be put into the device and re-sealed | 12:58 |
| fenn | there's some special plastic that won't let oxygen through, but maybe crimped aluminum foil will even work better than polyethylene as far as oxidation | 12:58 |
| tallakahath | You could just keep your freezer at positive argon or nitrogen pressure :) | 12:59 |
| fenn | just store your meat in a bucket of liquid nitrogen | 12:59 |
| jrayhawk | Beef's mostly SFAs, so it'll stay good for, like, six months, assuming sublimation can be kept at bay. | 12:59 |
| nmz787_i | actually, hmm | 12:59 |
| fenn | DIY cryonics | 12:59 |
| nmz787_i | what about CO2 | 12:59 |
| jrayhawk | or a year, even | 13:00 |
| nmz787_i | they sell dry ice at the local store | 13:00 |
| nmz787_i | i could just chuck a chunk in once a month | 13:00 |
| nmz787_i | and then have an asphixiation fun-tank too! | 13:00 |
| nmz787_i | huzzah! | 13:00 |
| jrayhawk | I think you have an AirGas pretty near you in Hillsboro. | 13:00 |
| nmz787_i | yeah but dry ice doesn't require a tank | 13:00 |
| nmz787_i | i suppose they may not be terribly expensive though | 13:00 |
| fenn | either way | 13:01 |
| nmz787_i | I /do/ already have an argon regulator from my MIG welder | 13:01 |
| fenn | CO2 will at least let you know you're suffocating | 13:01 |
| nmz787_i | :D | 13:01 |
| nmz787_i | it can be interesting too | 13:01 |
| fenn | with nitrogen you just pass out and never know | 13:01 |
| nmz787_i | there was that dr who used co2-enriched air | 13:01 |
| tallakahath | If you have CO2 and condensation tho you'll have a mildly acidic environment | 13:02 |
| tallakahath | Which may degrade your plastics in other ways | 13:02 |
| fenn | ok here's an idea: put some fine steel wool in the vacuum sealed bag as an oxygen getter | 13:03 |
| fenn | also it flavors the beef | 13:03 |
| nmz787_i | .wik carbogen | 13:03 |
| yoleaux | "Carbogen, also called Meduna's Mixture after its inventor Ladislas Meduna, is a mixture of carbon dioxide and oxygen gas. Meduna's original formula was 30% CO2 and 70% oxygen, but the term carbogen can refer to any mixture of these two gases, from 1.5% to 50% CO2." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbogen | 13:03 |
| nmz787_i | if i use mustard gas, the beef would also have a nice mustard flavor, right? | 13:05 |
| fenn | no you use blister agent because it's in blister packaging | 13:06 |
| -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 13:06 | |
| fenn | what i don't get is that most supermarket beef is "hung" which means they just let it sit around exposed to the air for a while before selling it | 13:07 |
| fenn | gee, thanks guys, it's so much better that way, otherwise i'd have to let it sit around and go bad myself | 13:07 |
| fenn | actually i just eat canned salmon, whatever | 13:08 |
| nmz787_i | they're doing that to this beef too | 13:08 |
| nmz787_i | I don't know what the effect is | 13:08 |
| fenn | to spite you | 13:09 |
| nmz787_i | I assume it's some enzymatic thing | 13:09 |
| fenn | it "improves the flavor" by oxidizing the fats | 13:09 |
| -!- Zinglon [~Zinglon@D549A77D.cm-10-1a.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Now with extra fish!] | 13:10 | |
| fenn | "the beef’s natural enzymes break down the connective tissue in the muscle, which leads to more tender beef." | 13:11 |
| -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 13:12 | |
| fenn | also something about tyramine | 13:13 |
| fenn | where did the "low hanging fruit" page go? | 13:20 |
| fenn | you kids get off my lawn | 13:20 |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 13:21 | |
| kanzure | fenn: http://diyhpl.us/cgit/skdb/tree/doc/proposals/trans-tech.yaml | 13:30 |
| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=c8ae5fce fenn: added info about dental caries vaccine BCS3-L1 >> | 13:30 |
| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=360305e0 fenn: Merge branch 'master' of /srv/git/diyhpluswiki >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/ | 13:30 |
| kanzure | moving trans-tech.yaml over would make some amount of sense | 13:31 |
| fenn | ya | 13:31 |
| fenn | should i keep it yaml or try to use markdown | 13:31 |
| -!- sandeep [~sandeep@117.254.216.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 13:31 | |
| kanzure | i say markdown | 13:32 |
| fenn | the existing wiki is hurting for a decent ontology | 13:32 |
| fenn | it's just a pile of stuff, occasionally in directories | 13:32 |
| kanzure | that sounds like a wiki to me | 13:32 |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 13:33 | |
| fenn | a vaccine isn't exactly a genetic modification but i didnt know where else to put it | 13:33 |
| fenn | it's not related to longevity or myostatin (and these are on different levels of abstraction so why are they side by side) | 13:34 |
| fenn | projects presumably means things we are working on, and nobody here is working on dental vaccines | 13:34 |
| jrayhawk | there are some structured data plugins for ikiwiki i can enable if you want | 13:35 |
| fenn | i guess i'm guilty of ontological chauvanism | 13:35 |
| jrayhawk | also i can be convinced to support gitit | 13:35 |
| jrayhawk | though i don't think gitit has strong structured data support | 13:35 |
| fenn | structured data means.. like semantic mediawiki? | 13:35 |
| fenn | RDF triples and verbiage? | 13:36 |
| kanzure | structured data just hasn't worked for this in the past | 13:36 |
| kanzure | and i don't expect it to start working | 13:36 |
| fenn | i definitely don't want to have to use semantic web voodoo | 13:37 |
| kanzure | i still don't understand where maaku is going to get all his engineering knowledge to feed into his software | 13:37 |
| maaku | kanzure: what knowledge? | 13:38 |
| fenn | knowledge like what a bolt does | 13:38 |
| -!- augur [~augur@206-196-184-33.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 13:39 | |
| maaku | you don't need that. you feed in requirements, in the form of a declarative definition of the goal state | 13:39 |
| -!- augur [~augur@206-196-184-33.wireless.umd.edu] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 13:39 | |
| maaku | what i'm building is something that's able to figure out what nuts and bolts are and why they are required on its own | 13:40 |
| fenn | and what does that look like | 13:40 |
| fenn | the goal state definition | 13:40 |
| maaku | e.g. you want a bridge? that's a flat surface suitable able to sustain loads up to X while remaining stable in an environment that include wind shear Y and earthquakes up to magnitude Z | 13:41 |
| kanzure | how does it know what a load is | 13:41 |
| maaku | it has built-in simulators at the base level. things like forces, euclidean space, etc. are basic ontology | 13:42 |
| fenn | i think we can accept forces as a cognitive primitive | 13:42 |
| -!- sandeep [~sandeep@117.254.216.177] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 13:42 | |
| fenn | it's stuff like "why" that is hard, and there's thousands of years of engineering knowledge bouncing around the human memesphere being taken for granted | 13:42 |
| kanzure | many engineering artifacts have to be independently characterized by humans before it can do anything interesting in a simulation. and then a simulation has to be written, even. | 13:43 |
| -!- augur [~augur@206-196-184-33.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 13:43 | |
| kanzure | ideas for how to bypass that or what to do about it would be very well accepted | 13:43 |
| fenn | yeah just getting the standard sizes and materials input is a huge task | 13:44 |
| fenn | inputted to the correct format | 13:44 |
| maaku | fenn: i don't think 'why' is relevant input in this case | 13:44 |
| maaku | you throw it at progressively harder engineering problems, and it develops its own internal 'why' | 13:44 |
| kanzure | so you have to build its 1 million failures so that it can learn? | 13:44 |
| fenn | i think it is, because otherwise you're asking a single mind to figure out/invent thousands of years of practical knowledge on its own | 13:45 |
| maaku | kanzure: not following | 13:45 |
| maaku | kanzure: i'm talking about ab initio simulation, the stuff that doesn't scale | 13:45 |
| fenn | they always find some trick or bug in the simulation that doesn't correspond to the real world | 13:45 |
| kanzure | i am going to sound rude for a moment, | 13:45 |
| maaku | the other part of the learning process is it developing higher-order models which do scale which it tests against its ab-initio biult-in simulator | 13:46 |
| kanzure | your idea is extremely vague and unimplementable | 13:46 |
| kanzure | fenn and i spent multiple years trying to implement ideas that are exactly similar to this | 13:46 |
| maaku | this is based on, e.g. the Bacon system Pat Langly did his Ph.D. work on | 13:46 |
| kanzure | it's not the vagueness that makes it unimplementable, mind you | 13:46 |
| maaku | http://www.isle.org/~langley/discovery.html | 13:47 |
| kanzure | "followed by gradient descent through the parameter space for each candidate structure" | 13:47 |
| kanzure | okay, well you had to give it parameter space and constraints in the first place.... | 13:47 |
| kanzure | that's totally cheating | 13:47 |
| fenn | langley stuff is all just data and model fitting | 13:48 |
| maaku | kanzure: integrative intelligence. you hook it up to systems able to learn the parameter space | 13:48 |
| kanzure | maaku: these are the sorts of things that need to be provided, https://github.com/kanzure/skdb/blob/master/doc/lists/manufacturing_processes.txt | 13:48 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/kanzure/skdb/blob/master/doc/lists/material_properties.txt | 13:48 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/kanzure/skdb/blob/master/doc/lists/technical-devices.yaml | 13:48 |
| maaku | kanzure: no, absolutely not. the entire point is to write a system that can learn those things on its own | 13:49 |
| kanzure | learn from what! | 13:49 |
| maaku | e.g. give it a sandbox to play in and it learns a method we would call "sand casting" to create iron structures | 13:49 |
| kanzure | so the sandbox has to have the engineering knowledge in it? | 13:50 |
| fenn | do you mean a literal box of sand? | 13:50 |
| maaku | kanzure: from the base level, absurdly slow simulator coupled with a hierarchical modeller that can abstract away or test portions of a higher level model as needed | 13:50 |
| fenn | or some AI fantasy box simulator? | 13:50 |
| fenn | digital natives are better than you at finding bugs in your simulator | 13:51 |
| maaku | "digital natives"? | 13:51 |
| kanzure | ai | 13:52 |
| kanzure | curve fit. ask a question and get an answer, just not what you wanted. | 13:52 |
| maaku | fenn: ok what's your point there? | 13:52 |
| maaku | kanzure: links to what you and fenn have worked on? | 13:53 |
| kanzure | you are handwaving away the absolute most important parts | 13:53 |
| kanzure | maaku: http://gnusha.org/skdb | 13:53 |
| fenn | well you probably aren't actually interested in finding the ways in which your simulator doesn't accurately model reality | 13:53 |
| kanzure | maaku: https://github.com/kanzure/skdb | 13:53 |
| maaku | fenn: zero approximations in the simulator | 13:53 |
| maaku | other than the bare minimum numerical | 13:53 |
| fenn | zero approximations means you're literally playing God | 13:54 |
| fenn | or you have a robot digging around with a metal shovel in an actual sand box | 13:54 |
| maaku | fenn: i have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, so i'm going to get back to work | 13:55 |
| maaku | kanzure: that seems 100% unrelated to anything I am working on | 13:55 |
| kanzure | maaku: automatic engineering of target artifacts...? | 13:55 |
| -!- Boscop [~me@e102.stw.stud.uni-saarland.de] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 13:56 | |
| -!- Boscop [~me@e102.stw.stud.uni-saarland.de] has quit [Changing host] | 13:56 | |
| -!- Boscop [~me@unaffiliated/boscop] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 13:56 | |
| maaku | kanzure: "SKDB simplifies the process of searching for free designs, comparing part compatibility, and building lists of materials and components and where to get them" <--- doesn't relate to what I am doing | 13:56 |
| kanzure | well excuse me for writing marketing copy | 13:56 |
| kanzure | we were using hardware packages that can be automatically reasoned with to build other packages and dependencies | 13:57 |
| kanzure | for example, industrial bootstrapping of complex machinery from simpler tools | 13:57 |
| -!- Boscop__ [me@188.126.90.234] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 13:57 | |
| kanzure | based on things in an inventory | 13:57 |
| fenn | maaku: you have to have some starting point, whether it's sand or lumber or products from amazon | 13:57 |
| -!- augur [~augur@206-196-184-33.wireless.umd.edu] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 13:58 | |
| fenn | in reality you can't just say "ok now make some stuff appear" | 13:58 |
| fenn | you can, but nothing will happen | 13:58 |
| -!- Boscop_ [me@178.73.219.200] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 13:59 | |
| fenn | so we have all these nanotech gearboxes, but nobody's actually built one because they don't know how | 13:59 |
| fenn | designs* | 13:59 |
| -!- Boscop [~me@unaffiliated/boscop] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 14:01 | |
| fenn | why is it the phrase "symbol grounding problem" always throws pure AI people into a hissy fit | 14:01 |
| fenn | engineers have no probem grounding symbols | 14:01 |
| fenn | a CNC controller's position readout corresponds to the position of some block of metal, plus or minus epsilon | 14:03 |
| -!- maaku__ [ade46b8d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.228.107.141] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 14:03 | |
| -!- augur [~augur@206-196-184-33.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 14:04 | |
| kanzure | maaku: http://gnusha.org/logs/2014-11-12.log | 14:04 |
| maaku__ | f'ing bouncer | 14:04 |
| -!- maaku [~quassel@50-0-37-37.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 14:04 | |
| fenn | oh i thought he stormed off | 14:04 |
| delinquentme | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/dna-assembly/Microfluidic%20systhesis.pdf | 14:04 |
| delinquentme | what was this submitted to the school of architecture? | 14:04 |
| delinquentme | + media arts + sciences ? | 14:05 |
| maaku__ | fenn: the disconnect is that I'm getting questions along the lines of "how do you intend to input all this engineering ontology?" when what I'm trying to do is build an automated system for discovering the ontology | 14:05 |
| maaku__ | which it will internally represent as probabalistic causal graphs | 14:05 |
| kanzure | the same question applies directly to a simulator | 14:06 |
| maaku__ | e.g. take an engineer, strip him of all his knowledge (fictional amnesia), but not the desire to create. how would he discover e.g., what a lever is, or why you need extra redundancy? | 14:07 |
| delinquentme | novelty: http://vimeo.com/101675469 | 14:07 |
| fenn | .title | 14:07 |
| yoleaux | Satoshi Kon - Editing Space & Time on Vimeo | 14:07 |
| delinquentme | maaku__, I cant help but think this has been done before | 14:07 |
| kanzure | probably by talking with other people | 14:07 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: shoo | 14:07 |
| delinquentme | isnt there a codebase for something like this already existing? | 14:08 |
| kanzure | maaku__: so his simulation box would need to have a lever already in it for him to encounter a lever? | 14:08 |
| maaku__ | delinquentme: this is pretty much the AGI problem | 14:08 |
| -!- maaku [~quassel@50-0-37-37.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 14:08 | |
| delinquentme | ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh | 14:08 |
| delinquentme | that sounds like a bit of an extrapolation | 14:08 |
| kanzure | why does nobody respect my shoos. | 14:08 |
| fenn | do you give it a lever? or do you just drop random shaped pieces of simulated matter in? | 14:08 |
| -!- maaku is now known as Guest99985 | 14:09 | |
| delinquentme | kanzure, im trying to sort out what the interesting problem is? | 14:09 |
| maaku__ | no it's simpler. it just looks for 'interesting' categorical arrangements of matter | 14:09 |
| delinquentme | I mean from a basic standpoint you could simply measure co-occurrence | 14:09 |
| maaku__ | at some point it figures out that a long, sturdy object is able to achieve large force over a small distance by applying a small force over a long distance | 14:10 |
| kanzure | so far all those engineers did have amnesia (they were born knowing nothing). and then they learn about stuff by talking with wizards, reading books, and interacting with the world. | 14:11 |
| fenn | so i can imagine how a physics simulator works, but how does it "look for interesting arrangements" and how does it even know what is interesting? | 14:11 |
| -!- bbrittain [~tiktaalik@2601:6:1781:1800:f95e:c6f3:c01b:4634] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] | 14:11 | |
| kanzure | fenn: not a good question | 14:11 |
| maaku__ | that's very unlike most other random arrangements of matter, so it gets filed away as interesting | 14:11 |
| kanzure | if you assume a working physics simulator that accurately models reality, you can do all sorts of other stuff | 14:11 |
| maaku__ | interesting as a technical sense here, meaning basically uncommon | 14:11 |
| -!- sandeep [~sandeep@117.254.216.177] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 14:12 | |
| fenn | i'm not assuming that it accurately models all aspects of reality, but i'll give him the benefit of the doubt that a physics simulator can simulate a lever :) | 14:12 |
| maaku__ | layer other aspects of AGI on top of this, e.g. creative recombination of ideas, and it start to less resemble a brute force iteration though possible arrangements of matter | 14:12 |
| delinquentme | fenn, what is the size of the lever XD | 14:13 |
| kanzure | well the naive implementation is just generate all possible shapes, test each one, see what works best, genetic algorithms, blah blah lbah, totally boring and obvious stuff | 14:13 |
| kanzure | (and then you make it more efficient from there) | 14:13 |
| delinquentme | I mean if kanzure can suggest it ... clearly | 14:13 |
| kanzure | (also you run simulations at fast-time) | 14:13 |
| delinquentme | we're even for your regex comment from yesterday now | 14:13 |
| delinquentme | it pissed me off that I spent 2 hours sorting out a regex which basically relayed " you're only allowed to name your system X ... this regex is X " | 14:14 |
| fenn | maaku__: but all solids are levers, and all unique arrangements are unique | 14:15 |
| kanzure | that's also a bad point | 14:16 |
| -!- Guest99985 [~quassel@50-0-37-37.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] | 14:16 | |
| maaku__ | fenn: suffice to say that is a basic machine learning problem, cluster identification | 14:17 |
| fenn | i'm trying to explain why "just do AGI on it" is not an explanation of how it works | 14:17 |
| tallakahath | OK time to get off this couch | 14:17 |
| kanzure | ignore the agi part | 14:17 |
| maaku__ | ok then i suppose I'm not getting what you are trying to say | 14:17 |
| kanzure | just assume it's random results and it eventually gets a result that is okay | 14:17 |
| kanzure | and then agi is just "more efficient" whipped cream or whatever | 14:18 |
| fenn | even with genetic algorithms you have a genotype and a phenotype, and this means some level of structure is hard coded into the way the algorithm does things | 14:19 |
| maaku__ | right this works with AIXI, in the theoretical sense | 14:19 |
| kanzure | yes i assume the structure is something like generic fermi estimation of engineering requirements or something | 14:19 |
| fenn | like a 0 here means a voxel is empty there | 14:19 |
| maaku__ | fenn, hence the AGI cop-out. an AGI would be able to introspect and say, try different genotype and phenotypes. or maybe try something entirely different from a genetic search | 14:20 |
| fenn | why is an AGI necessary just to learn how to play with piles of rubble | 14:20 |
| kanzure | it's not necessary | 14:21 |
| maaku__ | it's not necessary | 14:21 |
| fenn | ok at least we agree on that | 14:21 |
| kanzure | it's just well known that something better than random can already be achieved | 14:21 |
| kanzure | but look, nobody was arguing against the existence of optimization algorithms or whatever | 14:21 |
| kanzure | or, i guess fenn was, but i don't know why (he knows better) | 14:22 |
| kanzure | s/optimization/search | 14:22 |
| fenn | so a tall pile of rocks is more unusual than a flat pile of rocks because rocks tend to fall down.. | 14:22 |
| kanzure | i assume you would give some requirements to the simulator, just like in genetic algorithms or any other search problem | 14:22 |
| kanzure | and solutions that are closer to the goals would be indicated somehow | 14:23 |
| maaku__ | fenn: the dream is a mechanical engineer, and moore's law means you can throw more computing power at such a thing faster and cheaper than you could throw more human engineers at the problem | 14:23 |
| fenn | if you simulate 99 million random arrangements of rocks you might find a few that are taller and thus come up with rules that would select for things that are like that | 14:23 |
| -!- maaku_ [~quassel@50-0-37-37.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 14:23 | |
| kanzure | you would just throw in various constraint problems, like the gear train synthesis software ("give me 500 newtons of force at these coordinates") | 14:23 |
| maaku__ | some 5-ish years ago I looked at what it would take to do a full on molecular nanotechnology initiative, culminating in a working nanofactory. it looked expensive. i also have a longstanding interest in AGI and did my own assessment of how much work it would take to finish a human-level engineering AGI. that looked cheaper | 14:23 |
| maaku__ | although i've only been working/researching about it recently, off and on for the last two years or so | 14:25 |
| kanzure | so the design question seems a little less interesting to me than the build steps problem | 14:25 |
| maaku__ | build steps meaning instructions for building the thing? | 14:25 |
| kanzure | anyone can propose a dyson sphere design, but some good that does us.... | 14:25 |
| maaku__ | right i'm in absolute agreement with you there | 14:26 |
| kanzure | instructions, steps, whatever... botstrapping. whatever you call it. | 14:26 |
| kanzure | *bootstrapping | 14:26 |
| maaku__ | without the bootstrapping it is very uninteresting | 14:26 |
| maaku__ | but the design comes first, then you build a planner on top | 14:27 |
| delinquentme | " the dream is a mechanical engineer, and moore's law means you can throw more computing power at such a thing faster and cheaper than you could throw more human engineers at the problem" | 14:27 |
| delinquentme | +1 | 14:27 |
| kanzure | shoo | 14:27 |
| * delinquentme hate +1 | 14:27 | |
| kanzure | maaku__: why would a planner do bootstrapping? | 14:27 |
| kanzure | i don't understand. | 14:27 |
| -!- maaku_ [~quassel@50-0-37-37.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Client Quit] | 14:27 | |
| -!- maaku_ [~quassel@50-0-37-37.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 14:28 | |
| maaku__ | it's a planning problem -- how do you get from <current state> to <desired future state> | 14:28 |
| kanzure | so you have to describe current state somehow. | 14:28 |
| kanzure | it cannot be assumed | 14:28 |
| maaku__ | but it doesn't have to be very complex | 14:29 |
| kanzure | go on | 14:29 |
| ParahSailin_ | kanzure: stop whatever you are doing, delinquentme is spamming me in pm | 14:29 |
| fenn | (with embodied agents you can assume current state and let the agent inspect it) | 14:29 |
| maaku__ | e.g. in the nanofactory case it could be a set of available vapor deposition actions on a carbon or silicon substrate, and a handful of stochastic (unreliable) AFM tooltip operations | 14:30 |
| kanzure | oh i meant go on about your non-complex way of describing current state | 14:31 |
| delinquentme | ParahSailin_, | 14:31 |
| maaku__ | the output is like a generalized solution of the rubix cube -- take actions, A, B, C, D, .... and the result will be components X, Y, Z. integrate them into a MEMS system in this way, and then perform actions ... etc. | 14:31 |
| kanzure | yes i know what the outputs should be. it's the inputs i'm most worried about. | 14:32 |
| maaku__ | maybe i'm missing something but in this case the inputs don't seem that complex. | 14:34 |
| maaku__ | you could express them as rules -- 'after bathing the surface, any exposed dehydrogenated atoms will have bonded with a hydrogenated carbon with probability 0.9978' | 14:36 |
| kanzure | someone has to write software for the simulation to explain what vapor deposition is, right? | 14:36 |
| kanzure | and someone has to collect and write those rules, right? | 14:36 |
| fenn | this is just engineering knowledge like bolts and levers, that you think are too banal to input in principle | 14:37 |
| maaku__ | yes, but in this special case that doesn't look like a challenging problem | 14:37 |
| maaku__ | you're talking about a handful of rules | 14:37 |
| kanzure | i would be interested in hearing your ideas for implementations to make it not challenging | 14:37 |
| maaku__ | what was challenging about the rule I just gave? | 14:37 |
| nmz787_i | maaku_ you'd need to determine all the operational parameters of the equipment to achieve that goal | 14:38 |
| nmz787_i | either by trial and error, or by some physics/chem-based ruleset... | 14:39 |
| kanzure | and hook up the semantic knowledge about "bathing the surface" to inside the simulation.. or agent.. or something. | 14:39 |
| kanzure | what happens when 100,000 of these rules are required? a million? | 14:40 |
| maaku_ | i would find it too tedius to encode every aspect of engineering knowledge that might be required to design a nanofactory from first principles. | 14:40 |
| kanzure | s/design/build | 14:40 |
| kanzure | iirc design is not that difficult | 14:40 |
| maaku_ | but it doesn't seem too difficult to describe the probabalistic behavior of the handful of things you can do with an AFM in a vacuum chamber | 14:40 |
| fenn | "sudo make me a nanofactory" <- there, i designed it | 14:40 |
| * kanzure scribbles a picture of a nanofactory | 14:41 | |
| maaku_ | yes, build | 14:41 |
| fenn | it feels like we're going around in circles | 14:41 |
| maaku_ | *bootstrap | 14:41 |
| fenn | now i want to ask 'how do you describe what you can do with an AFM' | 14:42 |
| kanzure | yes, we went from "no engineering knowledge, fuck you kanzure" to "yeah there's engineering knowledge" | 14:42 |
| kanzure | also, there are many possible things you can do with an afm that you can't derive from first principles about the atomic structure of an afm tip | 14:42 |
| maaku_ | maybe you have a definition of engineering knowledge different from me | 14:42 |
| maaku_ | and I don't think that I was ever that hostile | 14:42 |
| delinquentme | ParahSailin_, | 14:42 |
| -!- maaku__ [ade46b8d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.228.107.141] has quit [Quit: Page closed] | 14:43 | |
| kanzure | oh i'm not claiming hostility | 14:43 |
| kanzure | or i do not intend to be claiming hostility | 14:43 |
| maaku_ | ok | 14:43 |
| * nmz787_i pokes myself in the eye with an AFM tip | 14:44 | |
| maaku_ | kanzure: so the bootstrapping design program needs to have some sort of basic ontology rooted in the physical simulator, and the first layer of derived ontology will likely be things like atomic structure | 14:45 |
| maaku_ | some manual introspection of the program's ontology reveals what these symbols are | 14:45 |
| maaku_ | you then specify some very coarse, high variance rules for what happens when you perform available actions A1 through A15 on world state, based on this ontology | 14:46 |
| kanzure | you could probably convince me about some methodology involving replacing unknowns and unknown-unknowns with fermi estimation, and then filling in blanks through empirical testing with physical reality | 14:46 |
| maaku_ | right these rules could even be learnt through physical testing | 14:46 |
| maaku_ | but to appease the MIRI folks, let's say we don't hook up the AI to an AFM | 14:47 |
| maaku_ | it could still be done by a handful of engineers in the lab doing prep work | 14:47 |
| fenn | did it create this ontology about atomic structure through trial and error with the simulator, or was it programmmed in at the start? | 14:47 |
| kanzure | programmed, although not from the start- at some mid-point apparently | 14:47 |
| maaku_ | fenn: trial and error with the simulator | 14:47 |
| kanzure | what? | 14:48 |
| kanzure | no now we're backtracking | 14:48 |
| fenn | sorry | 14:48 |
| maaku_ | then you present it with, say, a construct consisting of six protons, six neutrons, and six electrons, and see what it identifies it as. now you know that learned symbol is carbon-12 | 14:48 |
| kanzure | "available actions A1 through A15 on world state," | 14:48 |
| fenn | symbol | 14:49 |
| fenn | i thought it was interacting with a simulation | 14:49 |
| maaku_ | kanzure: present capability with the AFM -- e.g. apply pressure at position X,Y; bath sample in gas Z | 14:49 |
| -!- FourFire [~FourFire@77.88.71.253] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 14:49 | |
| kanzure | i know what you mean, i just don't know how you plan to do it | 14:49 |
| fenn | if it's just driving an afm around how can it know how many neutrons it has? (i'd think it can't) | 14:50 |
| kanzure | and how do you know that the set of actions you program into the system are the set that would allow it to do anything useful | 14:50 |
| maaku_ | kanzure: you don't until you try | 14:51 |
| kanzure | no wait, if you assume that the action programming works, then you can skip that question of mine | 14:51 |
| kanzure | however, i'm not willing to make that assumption yet.... | 14:51 |
| maaku_ | "assume that the action programming works" <--- not parsing this | 14:51 |
| maaku_ | assume that the action rules are valid? | 14:51 |
| kanzure | the thing where you map "available actions A1 through A15 on world state" to the internal symbols of the agent thingy. | 14:52 |
| fenn | the actions do things like move the afm +1 on the X axis, or wait for 1 millisecond | 14:52 |
| fenn | that would be hard-coded into the simulator | 14:52 |
| maaku_ | fenn: it is interacting with a simulation, with the purpose of learning how that simulation works, with the assumption that the simulation matches reality (ab initio), and using that to design a sequence of actions which if carried out in the real world result in desired goal state (nanofactory) | 14:53 |
| kanzure | right.. by people typing up engineering theory/knowledge/information/data... | 14:53 |
| fenn | no it's not theory, it's AI to simulator interface code | 14:53 |
| fenn | glue code | 14:54 |
| maaku_ | kanzure: that step is done by identifying the lowest layers of ontology in the bridge between the program's symbolic and subsymbolic (simulator) understanding | 14:54 |
| maaku_ | that step is a manual process | 14:54 |
| kanzure | hmmm | 14:54 |
| kanzure | that's the thing that i would most need to see a vague outline of a proof of concept of | 14:54 |
| maaku_ | same as when you throw a ton of pictures from youtube at an image recognizer to learn patterns, then show it pictures of cats to figure which pattern corresponded to a cat | 14:54 |
| kanzure | so let's imagine a world much like our own world, except where we have oracle knowledge doing this thought experiment i'm proposing | 14:55 |
| maaku_ | in principle you do this introspection to identify what every symbol in the machine corresponds to, including stuff we might not even have words for. but really you only need it for enough vocabulary to describe the current state (of the AFM box) | 14:56 |
| kanzure | and we know that in this world that, by definition, that an afm tip is not enough to build a nanofactory. what now? does that mean that you just keep hiring engineers to type in more data until enough actions are programmed in and avaiable? | 14:56 |
| kanzure | *available | 14:56 |
| maaku_ | or build better tools to work with as a base | 14:56 |
| fenn | vague outline for AFM interface: command afm movement, sense afm movement, sense time passed | 14:57 |
| maaku_ | it does help in the sense that you can build a bootstrapping process that say, would work if you had the freitas tooltips available and 15 angstrom resolution on AFM positioning | 14:57 |
| maaku_ | then you'd know with some certainty that the scale of the problem was drastically reduced, and maybe you just need to hire a bunch of chemists | 14:58 |
| -!- Burnin8 [~Burn@pool-71-191-174-26.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 14:59 | |
| -!- Burnin8 [~Burn@pool-71-191-174-26.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 14:59 | |
| fenn | i'd just like to see it randomly drive an AFM around and somehow build up a model of how atoms work based on unexpected differences between commanded and sensed positions alone | 15:01 |
| fenn | by randomly i mean super magical AI powers tell it what to do to learn fastest | 15:01 |
| maaku_ | well that may end up being necessary | 15:02 |
| kanzure | it was a mistake to introduce this idea as agi | 15:02 |
| kanzure | because fenn is stuck now | 15:02 |
| maaku_ | probably | 15:02 |
| fenn | this way we only give the AI box part of the code an interface that corresponds to what an actual physical interface would look like | 15:02 |
| maaku_ | the bootstrapping design issue is more presing in my view, because if I had a working design that could be built if we just had capabilities X, Y, and Z, money would materialize to solve that problem | 15:03 |
| fenn | any other way necessarily involves giving it "symbolic data" that has no connection to reality | 15:03 |
| maaku_ | yeah I spend too much time in AI circles, sorry | 15:03 |
| fenn | who here has seen an atom? | 15:03 |
| fenn | rhetorical question, don't answer | 15:03 |
| maaku_ | "AI" in this case is merely "It's cheaper for me to write a program that does this than hire literally 1 million engineers" | 15:03 |
| maaku_ | fenn: i see them everyday | 15:04 |
| maaku_ | don't you? | 15:04 |
| fenn | so i'm told | 15:04 |
| maaku_ | touche | 15:05 |
| fenn | i'm fine with the AFM task as a starting point because it's basically the same as driving a toy robot around in a box of rocks | 15:05 |
| fenn | except we can't actually see the rocks, we can only drive the robot | 15:05 |
| fenn | so that simplifies things because nobody wants to write vision processing code or whatever | 15:06 |
| fenn | but it puts a lot more work on the AI driving the robot to figure out what's going on | 15:06 |
| -!- augur [~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 15:09 | |
| fenn | i'm afraid an ab initio molecular dynamics simulation will be just as bad as a box of rocks simulation though | 15:10 |
| heath | i refuse to read the backlog | 15:10 |
| fenn | it can be pretty terrible, rocks exploding and vibrating for no reason | 15:10 |
| heath | fenn: sum it up | 15:10 |
| heath | you've got this | 15:10 |
| -!- augur [~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 15:10 | |
| fenn | heath: magical AI robots playing in sandboxes to take over the world | 15:10 |
| fenn | uh, and looking for interesting things | 15:11 |
| -!- augur [~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 15:11 | |
| fenn | i'm terrible at this | 15:11 |
| * heath nods and thanks fenn | 15:11 | |
| heath | good enough | 15:11 |
| fenn | maaku is trying to explain how to say "sudo make me a nanofactory" | 15:11 |
| delinquentme | "Finally, teams will upload any new digital designs for devices and/or hardware along with any new controller code to “Metafluidics,” a new open repository of device and hardware designs for microfluidics, to share with a larger miniaturization community." | 15:11 |
| delinquentme | http://2014.igem.org/Tracks/Microfluidics | 15:11 |
| kanzure | fenn: "we'll just use ai to solve the grounding problem, it's simple" | 15:13 |
| kanzure | maybe i'm being unfair | 15:14 |
| fenn | so this bathing thing, there's like a valve that opens and lets hydrogen in? | 15:14 |
| fenn | and then you simulate pumping down the vacuum for billions of cycles? | 15:16 |
| maaku_ | kanzure: it's called "bridging the symbolic/subsymbolic gap" | 15:17 |
| kanzure | has anyone ever done that | 15:18 |
| maaku_ | no, it's new | 15:18 |
| kanzure | i'm pretty sure people have been aware of this problem though | 15:18 |
| kanzure | (of this particular gap/bridging problem) | 15:18 |
| maaku_ | there's been some work on it by the opencog people thoug | 15:18 |
| maaku_ | i'm reusing a variant of their design | 15:18 |
| kanzure | ben goertzel threatened to sue me. so funny. | 15:18 |
| kanzure | right. hm... | 15:19 |
| maaku_ | http://goertzel.org/DeSTIN_OpenCog_paper.pdf | 15:19 |
| maaku_ | kanzure: really? | 15:19 |
| kanzure | have you read wargasm | 15:19 |
| maaku_ | no | 15:19 |
| kanzure | http://www.goertzel.org/fiction/wargazm/WARCON.html | 15:19 |
| kanzure | okay joking aside, /me looks | 15:20 |
| maaku_ | wow how did I not know about this juicy bit :) | 15:21 |
| maaku_ | well opencog's atomspace is garbage, but the basic idea of the paper of mining corrolations between learned features and symbolic nodes could work in any context | 15:23 |
| maaku_ | requires a jeff hawkins like hierarchical construct on the subsymbollic side though | 15:23 |
| fenn | i'd like to point out that literally every robot controller and industrial interface in the world bridges the symbolic/subsymbolic gap just fine | 15:24 |
| maaku_ | fenn: automated bridging | 15:24 |
| maaku_ | as in recognize new patterns perceptually, and link those patterns to things being reasoned about, even in novel environments | 15:25 |
| kanzure | hashimoto is a good name | 15:25 |
| fenn | may your thyroid ring true | 15:26 |
| maaku_ | nonsequitor, but true | 15:26 |
| * maaku_ wishes he'd thought of 'hashimoto' as an irc handle back in the day | 15:26 | |
| fenn | are you the demon wizard in samurai jack? | 15:27 |
| fenn | http://samuraijack.wikia.com/wiki/Aku | 15:27 |
| kanzure | ha | 15:30 |
| kanzure | maaku_: btw i am only harsh on you because these things are important... and stuff.. | 15:31 |
| kanzure | broadly speaking what we want is basically the same | 15:31 |
| maaku_ | kanzure: if i thought you were being a jerk I would have /part'd a while ago :) | 15:32 |
| kanzure | i wonder if there's an analytical method to build step generation | 15:33 |
| kanzure | where you can correctly derive a suitable answer by just crunching numbers instead of massive graph search problems | 15:33 |
| kanzure | (i don't mean simulations of designs to see if they meet requirements/goals) | 15:34 |
| maaku_ | sortof. i mean that's the goal of reasoning engines | 15:34 |
| fenn | there are vastly more equations without analytical solutions, but mathematicians dont particularly like them and try to ignore the fact that they exist | 15:34 |
| maaku_ | there just hasn't been a generalized algorithm for that | 15:34 |
| maaku_ | works in some problems, not in others. inference itself is sortof a graph search :\ | 15:35 |
| maaku_ | one aspect of what I want to focus on is learning problem solving techniques | 15:35 |
| maaku_ | i think this is closest to what you mean | 15:35 |
| kanzure | it is not. i ignore absoutely everything on the machine learning side because i consider it either trivial or already solved by many other people. | 15:36 |
| maaku_ | well.. i don't know how to respond to that | 15:36 |
| kanzure | it's probably just us using different words | 15:36 |
| kanzure | or meanings | 15:36 |
| maaku_ | probably. i wasn't talking about machine learning a la feature identification, although i think that is useful | 15:37 |
| kanzure | "bridging" just seems like the most critical piece. once you have that, the other parts fall into place. | 15:37 |
| maaku_ | i meant more along the lines of MOSES in opencog | 15:37 |
| fenn | am pretty sure "machine learning" is important in what you call bridging | 15:37 |
| maaku_ | which 'learns' programs by hybrid genetic+beam search | 15:37 |
| maaku_ | fenn: it's basically the core | 15:38 |
| kanzure | no amount of learning can predict reality | 15:38 |
| kanzure | i mean, | 15:38 |
| kanzure | no amount of learning can create a bridge | 15:38 |
| fenn | it's not learning really so much as glorping things into bins | 15:38 |
| kanzure | *no amount of machine learning can create a bridge | 15:38 |
| maaku_ | bridging is higher level machine learning -- learn corrolations between already learned patterns and predicted (reasoned) concepts | 15:38 |
| fenn | "this looks like a cat!" | 15:38 |
| kanzure | bridges can only grow from existing bridges | 15:39 |
| kanzure | (probably) | 15:39 |
| maaku_ | kanzure: i don't buy that as a philosophical basis | 15:39 |
| fenn | this is why i dont like simulated sandboxes for AI to play in | 15:39 |
| kanzure | maaku_: go on | 15:39 |
| kanzure | i'm reasonable. sometimes. :) | 15:39 |
| fenn | there's no sensory input being simulated in any way like how real sensors work | 15:39 |
| maaku_ | kanzure: are you saying that it is *impossible* to think up something for which an example doesn't already exist? | 15:40 |
| maaku_ | a bridge is a bad example because there were probably bridges long before humans -- trees that fell over small creeks, for example, or beaver dams | 15:41 |
| maaku_ | but assuming those didn't exist -- tha tthere was never a body of water or river that had something stretching over it | 15:41 |
| fenn | i thought "bridging" was just a metaphor | 15:41 |
| maaku_ | i would still argue that a human engineer at some point would have thought "hey, maybe there's something I can build to make it possible to walk across instead of using a boat" | 15:42 |
| kanzure | yeah i thought it was a concept in the field of ai, not related to actual physical bridges | 15:42 |
| kanzure | i am talking about symbolic grounding bridges | 15:42 |
| maaku_ | it is, sorry i just decided to take it literally as an example. | 15:43 |
| maaku_ | probably a bad one. | 15:43 |
| maaku_ | ok idk. imagine you have a world consisting of blocks and spheres | 15:43 |
| kanzure | i am suggesting the possibility that in the absence of a working "symbolic grounding" that maybe there is no symbolic grounding that is possible. | 15:44 |
| maaku_ | separately you have one of these AI-boxes that has been simulating boxes and spheres and their interactions and machine-learned everything there is to know about them | 15:44 |
| fenn | if you have an image sensor made of square chunks of silicon, the voltages on them get digitized into streams of bits representing an array of pixels. there's your first bridge. then you take the array of pixels and do edge detection and feature extraction, there's your second bridge | 15:44 |
| maaku_ | one thing it would learn is that "boxes tend to stay still unless inclined at a large angle, whereas spheres roll around with the slightest bump" | 15:44 |
| fenn | eventually you get to "there's a cat!" which is where all the symbolic ai stuff starts | 15:45 |
| kanzure | maaku_: sure.. | 15:45 |
| fenn | blocks and spheres dont exist | 15:46 |
| kanzure | fenn: sounds like "is my red the same as your red? is my cat the same as your cat?" which is boring | 15:46 |
| maaku_ | so starting with nothing more than the hypothosis that these mental simulations correspond to physical items, there's only one mapping of Box and Sphere to the observed items, which themselves seem to fit in two categories: static vs rolls-around | 15:46 |
| fenn | i just hate "start with a world of <easily computed mathematical things>" and assuming it represents reality in any meaningful way | 15:46 |
| kanzure | hm. | 15:47 |
| kanzure | maaku_: when you did your cost estimates, did you write things down? | 15:47 |
| fenn | there are actually huge layers of processing going on before you can even get to the most basic levels of human awareness | 15:48 |
| kanzure | maaku_: also did you play with the java applet here? http://theuncertainfuture.com/ | 15:48 |
| maaku_ | that was two computers ago... i might be able to find it | 15:48 |
| kanzure | well it's important | 15:48 |
| maaku_ | it would be good i think to redo the analysis with what I know now | 15:48 |
| maaku_ | certainly | 15:49 |
| kanzure | theuncertainfuture is highly relevant to these sorts of analyses, although it's not a generic tool for constructing them (although it should be) | 15:49 |
| kanzure | oh hey it works on one of my desktops. that is cool and unexpected. | 15:50 |
| kanzure | why do i have java installed there? | 15:50 |
| maaku_ | need to install java :\ | 15:50 |
| maaku_ | kanzure: what are you interested in having the AGI path compared against? | 15:51 |
| kanzure | whole brain emulation, but also other things | 15:51 |
| kanzure | other things like "apt-get for hardware and engineers manually maintaining packages of software for hardware stuff" | 15:51 |
| kanzure | whole brain emulation itself is a broad category though | 15:52 |
| fenn | yoleaux doesnt like funny european letters | 15:52 |
| fenn | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Na%C3%AFve_physics | 15:52 |
| kanzure | there are things everywhere from destructive brain scanning to non-destructive type | 15:52 |
| kanzure | and things like partial brain emulation, which might be enough | 15:52 |
| maaku_ | ok WBE I know less about. at the time I took numbers about what it would take to do full brain simulation, and did kurzweilian curve fitting | 15:52 |
| maaku_ | kurzweil himself is probably a fine source for that. crude, i know | 15:53 |
| kanzure | theuncertainfuture presents you with a series of questions about your probability distributions and priors for different costs of certain things | 15:53 |
| kanzure | like transistor costs, moore's law continuing or not and how much runway left, etc. | 15:53 |
| kanzure | but also things like your expectations of science funding, science funding effectiveness | 15:53 |
| fenn | WBE by 2040 or bust | 15:54 |
| kanzure | "general likelihood of whole brain emulation to even work at all even with maximum possible funding and best case scenario" | 15:54 |
| fenn | .g whole brain emulation roadmap | 15:54 |
| kanzure | "non-neuromorphic ai likeliness" (and then you drag probability densities around on a graph to show when you think it is most likely) | 15:54 |
| yoleaux | http://www.fhi.ox.ac.uk/brain-emulation-roadmap-report.pdf | 15:54 |
| fenn | kanzure: has anyone plugged the assumptions from this roadmap into the uncertain future slide rule? | 15:55 |
| kanzure | no | 15:55 |
| kanzure | theuncertainfuture is not quite a generic library or framework, even though it should be | 15:55 |
| fenn | but they ask the same sort of questions right? | 15:56 |
| kanzure | kinda | 15:56 |
| kanzure | i can do a run-through over irc if you guys want | 15:56 |
| fenn | how many questions are there approximately | 15:56 |
| kanzure | i forget | 15:56 |
| -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 15:57 | |
| fenn | i love the entry on the naive physics list, "Two events are either simultaneous or they are not" | 15:58 |
| maaku_ | see i don't trust myself to make such judgements. will WBE work? heck if I know. | 15:58 |
| maaku_ | i can just go by what the experts estimate as far as timelines, which seems to be 2030's at the earliest if you have a supercomputer and are not insanly optimistic | 15:58 |
| kanzure | "Is artificial intelligence possible in principle?" | 15:58 |
| kanzure | then it gives you a probability box | 15:58 |
| kanzure | oh there's actually lots of citations for what experts think, with their numbers/claims | 15:58 |
| kanzure | hrm this is hard to communicate | 15:58 |
| maaku_ | right i mean table 9 from the WBE roadmap | 15:59 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: might as well talk about that javathing in here | 15:59 |
| jrayhawk | i doubt i will get around to it quickly | 15:59 |
| kanzure | anyway, it wants a probability for what hplusroadmap thinks for whether or not "Is artificial intelligence possible in principle?" | 15:59 |
| kanzure | in the form of a percentage | 16:00 |
| maaku_ | uh, 100%? i assuming we're not dualists here | 16:00 |
| fenn | error: undefined term | 16:00 |
| jrayhawk | i dunno, we got some wackos | 16:00 |
| kanzure | to be fair, i don't really believe in intelligence | 16:00 |
| maaku_ | haha ok | 16:00 |
| maaku_ | artificial stupidity? | 16:00 |
| kanzure | why not normal stupidity? | 16:00 |
| kanzure | alright let's go with the default, 99% | 16:01 |
| kanzure | "When will computing power stop improving exponentially?" | 16:01 |
| -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 16:01 | |
| kanzure | astonishingly early stop: 10 to the $user_input (log) FLOPS/$ | 16:02 |
| kanzure | median stop: 10 to the $user_other_input (log) FLOPS/$ | 16:02 |
| kanzure | astonishingly late stop: $user_third_input (log) FLOPS/$ | 16:02 |
| fenn | three years ago | 16:02 |
| kanzure | defaults are: 10, 11, 12 | 16:02 |
| kanzure | these are not years | 16:02 |
| fenn | lets go with astonishingly early then | 16:02 |
| kanzure | all three must be given values | 16:03 |
| -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.147.27] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 16:03 | |
| kanzure | 10 ,11 and 12 are editable | 16:03 |
| jrayhawk | we're already hitting some physical limits in fabrication processes, but there's basically infinite room to grow in terms of pipelining and parallelization | 16:03 |
| jrayhawk | obviously we'll have to ditch x86 at some point, though | 16:03 |
| jrayhawk | there'll be a dip due to x86 inertia | 16:03 |
| fenn | nvidia tesla is 10TFLOP and costs about $1k | 16:05 |
| kanzure | so that's 10^9 per dollar? | 16:06 |
| fenn | so i'm going to say 11 log FLOPS/$ | 16:06 |
| kanzure | oh 10 though | 16:06 |
| kanzure | 11 as the astonishingly early stop? | 16:06 |
| jrayhawk | we aren't anywhere near theoretical heatpiping limits, which would probably involve diamond fabrication, and there are probably also advancements in superconductivity to be expected | 16:07 |
| fenn | moores law as we know it grinds to a sickening halt | 16:07 |
| kanzure | and astonishingly late stop? | 16:07 |
| kanzure | i don't know why a median is required, now that i think about it | 16:07 |
| fenn | i'm kinda confused about the format of the answers | 16:07 |
| kanzure | they change. | 16:07 |
| jrayhawk | i guess we already vapor deposition of diamond, so it's just a matter of integrating such a substrate into fabrication processes | 16:08 |
| kanzure | i am going to set astonishingly late stop to 10^15 FLOPS/$ | 16:09 |
| kanzure | "How much computing power for neuromorphic (brain-like) AI?" | 16:10 |
| fenn | what is "astonishingly late stop" supposed to mean? | 16:10 |
| jrayhawk | also once we reach the end of 2D density gains, we'll have more incentive to work on 3D density gains. | 16:10 |
| kanzure | "The median value is 10 to the ___ flops, std dev is 10 to the ___ flops." | 16:10 |
| kanzure | fenn: astonishingly late stop to "When will computing power stop improving exponentially?" | 16:10 |
| fenn | never? | 16:10 |
| kanzure | er, has to be less than the theoretical maximum supportable of the universe | 16:11 |
| kanzure | right? | 16:11 |
| fenn | like, what? quantum nucleonics could do stupidly huge amounts of processing | 16:11 |
| fenn | and what is a dollar in that context? | 16:11 |
| jrayhawk | i think after 10^17 it stops mattering for our purposes since we can just emulate a brain at that point | 16:11 |
| jrayhawk | real cheap | 16:12 |
| kanzure | fenn how is it that you don't have a sense for logs | 16:12 |
| kanzure | are you feeling okay | 16:12 |
| fenn | i know what a log is | 16:12 |
| fenn | i don't know what a dollar a million years in the future is supposed to mean | 16:12 |
| kanzure | oh the end of the chart was 2050 ish | 16:13 |
| fenn | i dont know enough about degenerate matter physics to calculate theoretical computers made from them | 16:13 |
| kanzure | hmm this is hard to explain without video | 16:13 |
| kanzure | http://theuncertainfuture.com/ufHelp/GoryMath.html | 16:13 |
| kanzure | alright, i'll just do screenshots. | 16:14 |
| fenn | so we are guessing the maximum expected computing power in 2050 | 16:15 |
| fenn | this is like "in 1985 colonists on pluto rebelled and send torrents of holo-petitions to colonial headquarters on earth" | 16:16 |
| -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] | 16:16 | |
| -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.147.27] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 16:16 | |
| -!- Dumpster_D1ver [~loki@50.242.254.37] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 16:16 | |
| fenn | seriously 2050 is the maximum? | 16:16 |
| fenn | given how many people (including ai researchers) think we won't have "ai" until "a hundred years after i'm dead" you'd think they would at least humor the audience | 16:18 |
| jrayhawk | the fermi estimation procedure in uncertainfuture requires implausible pessimism to get there | 16:20 |
| jrayhawk | well, for certain definitions of pessimism | 16:21 |
| jrayhawk | i suppose it's probably optimistic from a humanist perspective | 16:21 |
| fenn | for certain definitions of humanism | 16:22 |
| fenn | if taiwan, singapore, japan, and california all get nuked tomorrow, that would stop moore's law pretty quick | 16:24 |
| jrayhawk | kanzure: if you want to do a video, it's possible you should round up some futurist-minded folks for a VOIP conference to hash out the questions | 16:26 |
| fenn | oh | 16:28 |
| fenn | "If nothing really disruptive happens in the mean time (major nuclear war, substantial human intelligence enhancement, human-level AI, etc.), when will Moore's law level off?" | 16:28 |
| jrayhawk | moore's law is about transistor density, not about computation power | 16:28 |
| jrayhawk | actually i suppose it stopped being about density ages ago, even | 16:29 |
| jrayhawk | total transistor count | 16:29 |
| fenn | it was originally about transistor count | 16:29 |
| fenn | anyway, we've answered that question i think | 16:30 |
| fenn | "How much computing power would be required to simulate a human brain (perhaps at an abstract level)?" | 16:31 |
| fenn | jrayhawk thinks 10^17 TFLOPS | 16:31 |
| jrayhawk | i seriously doubt it's that high | 16:31 |
| jrayhawk | that's, like, molecular level | 16:31 |
| -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@134.134.139.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 16:31 | |
| jrayhawk | i guess the worst case scenario is still interesting | 16:32 |
| fenn | i think there may be some problems with connecting different parts of the computer together, because our assumptions about cost per flop don't say anything about latency | 16:33 |
| -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 16:34 | |
| fenn | this is a really hard question and it would take years to answer properly | 16:36 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/theuncertainfuture/?C=M;O=A | 16:39 |
| kanzure | there. | 16:39 |
| fenn | first order approximation; if we have a 10nm voxel grid of the brain and each voxel takes 1000 floating point operations to simulate 1 millisecond, that's 1000*1000*(1e8)^3 = 1e30 FLOPS | 16:42 |
| kanzure | why 10 nm voxel resolution? | 16:45 |
| kanzure | what's going on there | 16:45 |
| kanzure | oh | 16:45 |
| fenn | is that too small? | 16:45 |
| fenn | i was being conservative | 16:45 |
| fenn | some people think that voltages on synapses matter, and there's this compartment model neuron stuff | 16:46 |
| kanzure | "Diameter of a neuron = 4 to 100 microns" | 16:46 |
| kanzure | hrm. | 16:47 |
| kanzure | i should know this | 16:47 |
| fenn | diameter of a neurotransmitter receptor = 10 nm | 16:47 |
| kanzure | so, i do remember that markram wanted to be careful about where receptors and ion channels are located on cell membranes | 16:48 |
| superkuh | Also about the thickness of the lipid bilayer. | 16:48 |
| kanzure | but i don't recall if he was particularly interested in simulating every single one of them | 16:48 |
| kanzure | how did this happen? http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/theuncertainfuture/tuf-a10.png | 16:49 |
| kanzure | and this one? http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/theuncertainfuture/tuf-a9.png | 16:49 |
| kanzure | unfortunately every time i run through this program the output always look like that | 16:49 |
| fenn | how did you get the answers already, we havent even done the questions | 16:49 |
| kanzure | i figured it was taking too long, so i would take screenshots | 16:50 |
| kanzure | instead of painfully describing each question | 16:50 |
| kanzure | and the type of input it wants | 16:50 |
| kanzure | i am willing to go back and edit in answers from the channel | 16:50 |
| kanzure | but not willing to describe every stray pixel | 16:50 |
| fenn | i found the url for the questions at http://theuncertainfuture.com/ufHelp/Q3.html (edit number for different question) | 16:51 |
| kanzure | yes but it doesn't say the format of the answer it wants | 16:51 |
| kanzure | these curves are worse than bitcoin's hockey stick | 16:52 |
| fenn | who the hell thinks like this anyway, "obviously the answer is 10^17 std dev 10^0.212 | 16:52 |
| kanzure | steve | 16:52 |
| -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@134.134.139.72] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 16:53 | |
| jrayhawk | haha | 16:53 |
| jrayhawk | the bayesian conspiracy | 16:54 |
| fenn | i'm not at all confident in any of these answers | 16:55 |
| kanzure | not even the one about whole genome sequencing? http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/theuncertainfuture/tuf-q9-1.png | 16:57 |
| fenn | why is that even a question | 16:59 |
| kanzure | human enhancement speedup of research stuff | 16:59 |
| kanzure | intelligence amplification | 16:59 |
| kanzure | feedback loops etc | 16:59 |
| fenn | human genome is definitely not the first thing i think of wrt intelligence amplification | 16:59 |
| kanzure | i think he is keeping these questions vague so that they cancel each other out when multiplied/added or something | 17:00 |
| kanzure | btw this was the project where i went out to singinst and found him | 17:01 |
| kanzure | or where he found me. i don't know. | 17:01 |
| fenn | i guess the idea is "even if computers suck, we'll have IA" | 17:01 |
| fenn | i find it unlikely we'll ever have legal human genetic engineering | 17:02 |
| kanzure | yeah let's outlaw meiosis? | 17:03 |
| fenn | there will probably be some stupid war led by Judd Bush the third and i'll be on the receiving end of it | 17:05 |
| -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@2606:6000:cb85:6a00:e02e:79f:eb4b:9c2e] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 17:05 | |
| fenn | 80% chance in 2020 eh | 17:08 |
| kanzure | i think i am just to optimistic in general about these things | 17:09 |
| kanzure | because straight upward curves so soon don't make much sense | 17:09 |
| kanzure | back in 2008 or whatever i was also getting straight upward curves. although it was not 2008-ish. | 17:10 |
| fenn | well hey man we've got cheetah robots and universal translators that fit in a pocket... | 17:13 |
| fenn | did those exist in 2008? | 17:13 |
| kanzure | does that help though | 17:14 |
| fenn | the 80% in 2020 graph was "non-neuromorphic AI" which is sort of a slippery concept | 17:16 |
| kanzure | that was not an input | 17:16 |
| fenn | if a cheetah robot can look around and tell me my socks don't match in any of 400 languages, it may well qualify | 17:17 |
| kanzure | that graph was the output of the system | 17:17 |
| kanzure | tab says "A" for answer i guess | 17:17 |
| fenn | so i'm thinking about "how does what we know now revise your inputs in 2008" | 17:17 |
| -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.147.27] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 17:20 | |
| kanzure | i have no idea what my inputs were | 17:20 |
| fenn | why does the risk of nuclear war go down? it should go up because more people get nuclear weapons as technology gets cheaper | 17:23 |
| kanzure | i imagined we get space travel | 17:23 |
| kanzure | i guess that's not fair of me | 17:23 |
| fenn | ditto for climate change | 17:26 |
| fenn | in my mind the only way to fix climate change is if everyone gets a nuclear reactor and starts pumping out diamonds | 17:27 |
| fenn | or polyethylene | 17:28 |
| fenn | wow even with your answers the probability of some non-AI catastrophe is 50% by 2020 | 17:30 |
| kanzure | hrm. | 17:32 |
| kanzure | so either the math is right, and everyone should constantly be terrified for their lives | 17:32 |
| kanzure | or the math is wrong, and for some reason the world hasn't exploded yet | 17:32 |
| jrayhawk | http://www.fhi.ox.ac.uk/brain-emulation-roadmap-report.pdf most of my intuitions come from this; are there better papers i should be working from? | 17:32 |
| kanzure | no | 17:32 |
| fenn | thats all she wrote | 17:32 |
| fenn | game over, you are all probably dead | 17:33 |
| kanzure | bayesian kenshiro? | 17:33 |
| jrayhawk | you are already significantly dead ( p < 0.05 ) | 17:34 |
| fenn | robotic cheetah staring open-mouthed at flaming asteroid falling from the sky | 17:35 |
| -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@134.134.139.72] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 17:36 | |
| kanzure | hm you know maybe i was interpreting that not as a progress halt but just a slowdown factor | 17:37 |
| kanzure | whereas an entire global halt would have to be something like the planet blowing up | 17:38 |
| -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.147.27] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 17:38 | |
| fenn | i wonder whether science funding would go up or down if an asteroid took out a major populated area | 17:42 |
| * fenn hacks into the rosetta propulsion system | 17:43 | |
| superkuh | Humanity missed a big opportunity with comet sliding spring. If we had nudged it into Mars we'd be a quarter way to terraforming it and people could see the dangers and military promise of space infrastructure. | 17:48 |
| jrayhawk | superkuh for benevolent dictator | 17:48 |
| fenn | it was way out of the plane of the ecliptic; how would we have gotten anywhere near it? | 17:50 |
| jrayhawk | the solution to all problems is project orion | 17:50 |
| superkuh | Given the time available.... I don't know. But in the future, electrostatic solar sails put on to h-reversal trajectories to maximize velocity difference. | 17:51 |
| superkuh | http://arxiv.org/abs/1108.3183 , etc, except with electrostatic sails for even better performance and control. | 17:54 |
| fenn | not only to you have to accelerate in one direction long enough to get out there in time, you also have to then accelerate in a different direction to nudge it the right way | 17:55 |
| fenn | the h-trajectory is a neat idea, i wouldn't have thought of that | 18:02 |
| jrayhawk | ugh, build.jardesc instead of build.xml | 18:05 |
| kanzure | hmm https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5267 | 18:13 |
| * kanzure grows a beard and strokes it | 18:13 | |
| jrayhawk | oh, your neckbeard picture disappeared from heybryan.org | 18:15 |
| kanzure | blah i didn't update coin selection today. i should go do that. | 18:18 |
| kanzure | passing in a list of 100,000 outputs over rpc seems silly to me | 18:18 |
| kanzure | and it would be nice to write software that doesn't immediately fail whenever that sort of thing changes | 18:20 |
| kanzure | *load chnages | 18:20 |
| kanzure | *changes | 18:20 |
| -!- HEx2 [~HEx@hexwab.plus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 18:33 | |
| -!- HEx1 [~HEx@hexwab.plus.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 18:33 | |
| -!- Dumpster_D1ver [~loki@50.242.254.37] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 18:55 | |
| kanzure | cache-timing attacks on aes (bernstein) http://cr.yp.to/antiforgery/cachetiming-20050414.pdf | 18:58 |
| -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-msmiipgdwojwhuik] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] | 19:07 | |
| -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 19:33 | |
| -!- streety [streety@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:ded6] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 20:06 | |
| -!- gnusha_ [~gnusha@131.252.130.248] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 20:12 | |
| -!- Topic for ##hplusroadmap: biohacking, nootropics, transhumanism, open hardware | sponsored by george church and the NRA, banned by the Federal Death Administration (4 times) | this channel is LOGGED: http://gnusha.org/logs | http://diyhpl.us/wiki | not intentionally unrepeatable | 20:12 | |
| -!- Topic set by kanzure [~kanzure@131.252.130.248] [Fri Jun 6 17:48:33 2014] | 20:12 | |
| [Users ##hplusroadmap] | 20:12 | |
| [ abetusk ] [ delinquentme] [ justanotheruser ] [ rigel ] | 20:12 | |
| [ ademoglu ] [ dingo ] [ juul ] [ saurik ] | 20:12 | |
| [ ademoglu_ ] [ dingo_ ] [ kanzure ] [ sheena2 ] | 20:12 | |
| [ altersid ] [ docl ] [ kenju254 ] [ sivoais ] | 20:12 | |
| [ andytoshi ] [ DonnchaC_ ] [ kragenjaviersita] [ smeaaagle ] | 20:12 | |
| [ archels ] [ dpk ] [ lichen ] [ strages_ ] | 20:12 | |
| [ audy ] [ drazak ] [ maaku_ ] [ strangewarp] | 20:12 | |
| [ augur ] [ drewbot ] [ Merovoth ] [ streety ] | 20:12 | |
| [ balrog ] [ dvorkbjel ] [ napedia ] [ superkuh ] | 20:12 | |
| [ Beatzebub ] [ ebowden ] [ night ] [ tallakahath] | 20:12 | |
| [ bkero ] [ faceface ] [ nmz787 ] [ thundara_ ] | 20:12 | |
| [ blueskin ] [ fenn ] [ nsh ] [ Twey ] | 20:12 | |
| [ Boscop__ ] [ gnusha ] [ NWCoffeenut ] [ upgrayeddd ] | 20:12 | |
| [ Burnin8 ] [ gnusha_ ] [ paperbot ] [ Urchin ] | 20:12 | |
| [ catern ] [ heath ] [ ParahSailin_ ] [ Viper168 ] | 20:12 | |
| [ Coldblackice] [ helleshin ] [ pasky ] [ Vutral ] | 20:12 | |
| [ comma8 ] [ HEx1 ] [ pasky_ ] [ yashgaroth ] | 20:12 | |
| [ crescendo ] [ ivan` ] [ poohbear ] [ yoleaux ] | 20:12 | |
| [ cuba ] [ JayDugger ] [ Qfwfq ] [ yorick ] | 20:12 | |
| [ d3vz3r0 ] [ jrayhawk ] [ rak[1] ] | 20:12 | |
| [ Daeken ] [ juri_ ] [ rayston ] | 20:12 | |
| -!- Irssi: ##hplusroadmap: Total of 82 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 82 normal] | 20:12 | |
| -!- Channel ##hplusroadmap created Thu Feb 25 23:40:30 2010 | 20:12 | |
| -!- Irssi: Join to ##hplusroadmap was synced in 9 secs | 20:12 | |
| -!- streety [streety@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:ded6] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 20:12 | |
| -!- comma8 [comma8@gateway/shell/yourbnc/x-wfqlskzkfofywhpw] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 20:12 | |
| -!- ademoglu [~ademoglu@unaffiliated/ademoglu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 20:12 | |
| -!- abetusk [~abe@c-71-192-163-80.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 20:12 | |
| -!- dingo [dingo@79tercel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 20:12 | |
| -!- gnusha [~gnusha@131.252.130.248] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 20:12 | |
| -!- pasky [~pasky@nikam.ms.mff.cuni.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 20:12 | |
| -!- faceface [~dbolser@nat8021.ebi.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 20:12 | |
| -!- night [~Adifex@unaffiliated/adifex] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 20:12 | |
| -!- dvorkbjel [~viskestel@li607-220.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 20:12 | |
| -!- faceface_ [~dbolser@nat8021.ebi.ac.uk] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 20:12 | |
| -!- ademoglu_ is now known as ademoglu | 20:12 | |
| -!- streety_ [streety@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:ded6] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 20:12 | |
| -!- streety_ is now known as streety | 20:12 | |
| -!- abetusk [~abe@c-71-192-163-80.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 20:13 | |
| -!- abetusk is now known as Guest72939 | 20:13 | |
| -!- night [~Adifex@unaffiliated/adifex] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 20:14 | |
| -!- dvorkbjel [~viskestel@li607-220.members.linode.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 20:15 | |
| -!- comma8 [comma8@gateway/shell/yourbnc/x-zeqagkrnkrfqeuuy] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 20:17 | |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 20:26 | |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 20:38 | |
| -!- nmz787_i [nmccorkx@nat/intel/x-lwwsuyxqjxcjstak] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 20:57 | |
| -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@2606:6000:cb85:6a00:e02e:79f:eb4b:9c2e] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 21:06 | |
| -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.147.27] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 21:57 | |
| -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.147.27] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 22:07 | |
| -!- snuffeluffegus [~snuff@5.150.254.180] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 22:13 | |
| -!- qu-bit [~shroedngr@unaffiliated/barriers] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 22:43 | |
| -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.147.27] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 22:47 | |
| -!- qu-bit [~shroedngr@unaffiliated/barriers] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 22:57 | |
| kanzure | everyone got really boring | 22:58 |
| -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.147.27] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 23:01 | |
| kanzure | haha why is melanie swan associating herself with ieet and bitcoin. | 23:10 |
| kanzure | blah | 23:10 |
| kanzure | ieet: a brand you wouldn't even want on your shoe | 23:10 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: shouldn't you be asleep? | 23:11 |
| kanzure | fuck that | 23:11 |
| justanotheruser | so, please bring me in the loop, who is melanie swan, what is wrong with ieet and what is bitcoin | 23:12 |
| kanzure | melanie swan is just some transhumanist | 23:12 |
| kanzure | ieet is some anti-transhumanist hellhole | 23:12 |
| justanotheruser | their name implies they want ethics | 23:12 |
| kanzure | melanie isn't very much of a software person so i'm not sure why she's so certain that the blockchain is good for all the things she's proposing | 23:13 |
| justanotheruser | are their "ethics" overbearing? | 23:13 |
| kanzure | their ethics aren't ethics | 23:13 |
| kanzure | they are more like poo flingers | 23:13 |
| kanzure | this is the closest thing to any sort of practical ethics in transhumanism http://web.archive.org/web/20130709183013/http://www.maxmore.com/extprn3.htm | 23:14 |
| kanzure | besides http://diyhpl.us/wiki/declaration | 23:14 |
| justanotheruser | was she the lady you linked about solving some genome problem or uploading your genome to a blockchain? | 23:16 |
| kanzure | hmm are you sure the genome blockchain stuff was a lady | 23:16 |
| justanotheruser | nope | 23:16 |
| kanzure | i don't think so | 23:16 |
| kanzure | "the gnome problem? who gives a rat's ass about the gnomes? let them be." | 23:17 |
| justanotheruser | just thought that might have been here since that project is an intersection of bitcoin ideas, dumb person ideas and h+ ideas, all three of which you're saying this person has. | 23:17 |
| kanzure | ".. oh.." | 23:17 |
| kanzure | this is her now http://blockchainstudies.org/ | 23:18 |
| -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@2a02:810b:33f:dc18:ccff:7130:d500:e68d] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 23:18 | |
| -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@2a02:810b:33f:dc18:ccff:7130:d500:e68d] has quit [Changing host] | 23:18 | |
| -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 23:18 | |
| justanotheruser | o_O | 23:18 |
| justanotheruser | Envision blockchain healthtech apps like Personal Health Record Storage, Health Research Commons, Health Document Notary Services, and Doctor Vendor RFP Services | 23:19 |
| kanzure | "Bitcoin 3.0" yeah good luck with co-opting bitcoind's versioning scheme | 23:19 |
| kanzure | ugh | 23:19 |
| kanzure | storing entire health databases in the blockchain is a terrible idea | 23:20 |
| justanotheruser | its like she searched '"blockchain technology" inurl:/r/bitcoin' and designed her website based on what she read | 23:20 |
| -!- qu-bit [~shroedngr@unaffiliated/barriers] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 23:24 | |
| justanotheruser | My theory is bitcoin interests people in cryptography and these people assume bitcoin is unique in its ability to do things like be "pseudonymous (e.g.; coded to a digital address not a name)" and restricting things using cryptography ("Users would permission doctors and other parties into their records as needed via their private key"). Rather than using these two components separately to form a new cryptosystem, they ... | 23:27 |
| justanotheruser | ... redefine things like "assets" to be the data they want to store: "personal health records would be encoded as digital assets and put on the blockchain just like other assets like currency (bitcoin, litecoin, dogecoin, etc.)." | 23:27 |
| justanotheruser | She is pretending sharing data between many parties (at least one of which is being monetarily incentivized by you) is an unsolved problem before blockchain technology. | 23:28 |
| -!- night is now known as Adifex | 23:32 | |
| -!- qu-bit [~shroedngr@unaffiliated/barriers] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 23:38 | |
| -!- qu-bit [~shroedngr@unaffiliated/barriers] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 23:53 | |
| -!- rayston [~rayston@ip68-106-242-42.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 23:57 | |
| -!- rayston [~rayston@ip68-106-242-42.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 23:58 | |
| --- Log closed Thu Nov 13 00:00:49 2014 | ||
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.15.0.dev0 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!
