| --- Log opened Sat Apr 18 00:00:32 2015 | ||
| --- Day changed Sat Apr 18 2015 | ||
| kanzure | ""Before the invention of the baby sling, dated by Dr Taylor to at least 2.2 million years ago, when human ancestor head size suddenly began to increase, physically mature infants were more likely to survive, because caring for slower-developing immature ones was difficult, uneconomic and often dangerous. Mothers holding their infants were more vulnerable to attack from predators or other humans than those using baby slings. They were ... | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| kanzure | ... also less able to perform other more economically productive tasks. Most importantly, the invention of the baby sling artificially lengthened human gestation, said Dr Taylor." | 00:00 |
| kanzure | ( from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9396409 ) | 00:00 |
| Taek | Would something like Gattaca-style genetic optimization be on-topic for this channel? | 00:02 |
| kanzure | yep | 00:02 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/wiki/genetic-modifications/ | 00:02 |
| kanzure | and more generally, see http://diyhpl.us/wiki/dna/projects/#igem-2014 | 00:04 |
| Taek | would you know how many human DNA sequences are publically and privately available? | 00:05 |
| kanzure | at least thousands... e.g. here's just one project http://aws.amazon.com/1000genomes/ | 00:05 |
| Taek | I was thinking about using machine learning to pull out more genes that seem coorelated to things like intelligence or disease resistance | 00:05 |
| kanzure | and genbank has been growing exponentially for decades http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/genbank/ | 00:06 |
| kanzure | unfortunately intelligence is very hard to define | 00:06 |
| Taek | usually when people talk about intelligence they really want something more specific anyway | 00:07 |
| kanzure | but i have many papers here on related subjects http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/ | 00:07 |
| Taek | for example, better salaries | 00:07 |
| Taek | is there a shortlist somewhere? lol | 00:07 |
| kanzure | don't be lazy | 00:07 |
| kanzure | as for disease resistance, you can "train" immune systems with antibodies and antigens and samples | 00:08 |
| Taek | I was more thinking along the lines of heart conditions, brain conditions, etc. All dependent to some degree on the environment, but also dependent on genetic factors | 00:10 |
| kanzure | for intelligence correlation i have recently been fascinated by http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/human_chimpanzee_brain_differences.png | 00:10 |
| kanzure | if there was a good "intelligence test" that could be automated, many other very hard problems in science will become dramatically easier | 00:12 |
| * kanzure sleeps | 00:12 | |
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| -!- Topic for ##hplusroadmap: biohacking, nootropics, transhumanism, open hardware | sponsored by george church and the NRA, banned by the Federal Death Administration (4 times) | this channel is LOGGED: http://gnusha.org/logs | http://diyhpl.us/wiki | "ray kurzweil is a pessimist" - george church | 04:16 | |
| -!- Topic set by kanzure [~kanzure@unaffiliated/kanzure] [Mon Mar 23 17:39:20 2015] | 04:16 | |
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| kanzure | 4 hour gap in the logs: http://gnusha.org/logs/2015-04-18.log | 05:51 |
| kanzure | Taek: if you said anything else, i didn't see | 05:52 |
| kanzure | huh "In a study of the head growth of 633 term-born children from the Avon Longitudinal Study of Parents and Children cohort, it was shown that prenatal growth and growth during infancy were associated with subsequent IQ. The study’s conclusion was that the brain volume a child achieves by the age of 1 year helps determine later intelligence. Growth in brain volume after infancy may not compensate for poorer earlier growth.[40]" | 05:59 |
| CaptHindsight | kanzure: hi, the point I was trying to make yesterday about patents in the west is that many of the devices on you list aren't that difficult to develop... | 06:06 |
| CaptHindsight | the problem is that it's difficult to sell them in the west due to all the overlapping patents | 06:06 |
| CaptHindsight | but they can be manufactured in China | 06:07 |
| CaptHindsight | and yes, China has their own patent system, but it's also very flexible | 06:08 |
| kanzure | i agree that these devices are not difficult | 06:08 |
| kanzure | have i ever shown you my patent reform idea https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/openmanufacturing/vS4ju1VqXb0 | 06:09 |
| kanzure | whoops i mean https://groups.google.com/d/msg/openmanufacturing/vS4ju1VqXb0/jD_TZ8U47b4J | 06:09 |
| CaptHindsight | for example, a DNA sequencer that produces accurate results in minutes or hours would not be blocked by their government | 06:09 |
| CaptHindsight | the US patent system is the best that money can buy, same for the legislature | 06:12 |
| kanzure | that's nonsense, i can imagine much better and much worse systems on almost all of its dimensions | 06:15 |
| CaptHindsight | as I can, but the groups that fund it also don't cooperate with each other | 06:17 |
| FourFire | what kanzure said. | 06:17 |
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| CaptHindsight | well since the patent system here won't be reformed anytime soon I'm happy to help with some of the wanted devices, but you'll either have to purchase them from China or follows the plans and build them your self | 06:29 |
| kanzure | yep exactly | 06:31 |
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| cluckj | kanzure, is there a good pirate ebook site? | 07:33 |
| kanzure | libgen | 07:35 |
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| cluckj | thanks | 07:38 |
| cluckj | a lot | 07:38 |
| cluckj | seriously | 07:38 |
| cluckj | I'm dying here without access to a research library | 07:38 |
| kanzure | libgen's like the only thing we talk about in here, how have you never seen it? O_o | 07:39 |
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| JayDugger | Good morning, everyone. | 07:43 |
| cluckj | I don't even know | 07:45 |
| kanzure | hmm susceptibility to ultrasound neural stimulation would be another good selective breeding project. since cells are already partially responsive. | 07:55 |
| FourFire | ooh | 07:56 |
| cluckj | not a lot of my kind of stuff in libgen :\ | 07:58 |
| kanzure | .title http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/276/1654/31 | 08:09 |
| yoleaux | The evolution of superstitious and superstition-like behaviour | Proceedings of the Royal Society of London B: Biological Sciences | 08:09 |
| kanzure | "Superstitious behaviours, which arise through the incorrect assignment of cause and effect, receive considerable attention in psychology and popular culture. Perhaps owing to their seeming irrationality, however, they receive little attention in evolutionary biology. Here we develop a simple model to define the condition under which natural selection will favour assigning causality between two events. This leads to an intuitive ... | 08:09 |
| kanzure | ... inequality—akin to an amalgam of Hamilton's rule and Pascal's wager—-that shows that natural selection can favour strategies that lead to frequent errors in assessment as long as the occasional correct response carries a large fitness benefit. It follows that incorrect responses are the most common when the probability that two events are really associated is low to moderate: very strong associations are rarely incorrect, while ... | 08:10 |
| kanzure | ... natural selection will rarely favour making very weak associations. Extending the model to include multiple events identifies conditions under which natural selection can favour associating events that are never causally related. Specifically, limitations on assigning causal probabilities to pairs of events can favour strategies that lump non-causal associations with causal ones. We conclude that behaviours which are, or appear, ... | 08:10 |
| kanzure | ... superstitious are an inevitable feature of adaptive behaviour in all organisms, including ourselves." | 08:10 |
| adlai | paperbot http://www.ehbonline.org/article/S1090-5138(14)00005-1/fulltext | 08:19 |
| adlai | paperbot: http://www.ehbonline.org/article/S1090-5138(14)00005-1/fulltext | 08:19 |
| cluckj | I need to update my kindle D: | 08:19 |
| cluckj | RIP paperbot | 08:19 |
| adlai | that one is about pointless rituals reinforcing group cohesion | 08:20 |
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| kanzure | so on that note (of superstitious behavior in evolutionary history), i suspect that (a wide variety of unique and specific) ritualistic superstititous behavior chains are a good proxy for measuring intelligence or memory or something | 08:24 |
| cluckj | group cohesion is pretty important | 08:24 |
| kanzure | or rather, the depth of the ritualistic behavior chain is the proxy measurement to look for | 08:24 |
| kanzure | (and the diversity or the count of the unique ritualistic behaviors and their depth, of course) (or variations of combinations) (not sure which one should be a priority) | 08:25 |
| kanzure | show me an animal that has 500 unique, long multi-step ritualistic behaviors that is not considered intelligent | 08:26 |
| kanzure | oh wait. computers. | 08:26 |
| kanzure | i don't know how to reconcile that | 08:27 |
| cluckj | they're not animals | 08:27 |
| kanzure | yeah but that's racist | 08:27 |
| kanzure | ..right? | 08:27 |
| cluckj | lol | 08:27 |
| cluckj | robots don't have feelings | 08:28 |
| kanzure | why would that matter? | 08:28 |
| fenn | the correct response is "only if you consider computers a race" | 08:28 |
| cluckj | only if computers consider themselves a race | 08:29 |
| kanzure | i am confused, am i the computer here? | 08:29 |
| fenn | no | 08:30 |
| kanzure | anyway my point is that computers are very good at storing many sequences of extremely ritualistic behaior | 08:30 |
| kanzure | *behavior | 08:30 |
| kanzure | and yet they don't qualify, so therefore my definition above is either wrong or missing something | 08:31 |
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| fenn | memory is a good proxy for intelligence | 08:32 |
| fenn | but not in computers | 08:32 |
| kanzure | fenn: context is http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/276/1654/31 | 08:32 |
| fenn | guh this is exactly what i was talking about with steve last night | 08:34 |
| kanzure | good, you're prepared then | 08:35 |
| fenn | can i skip this class | 08:35 |
| kanzure | maybe, although i'd appreciate a hint about the difference between tape memory and superstitious behavior | 08:36 |
| kanzure | or superstitious non-intelligence intelligence... i dunno what that is. | 08:36 |
| fenn | a book has memory but doesn't actively predict events | 08:37 |
| cluckj | superstitious behavior has rituals associated with it | 08:37 |
| cluckj | like...non-functional rituals | 08:37 |
| cluckj | a computer would have functional riturals | 08:37 |
| cluckj | err rituals | 08:37 |
| kanzure | fenn: but we have various software that is supposed to spit out predictions, right? | 08:38 |
| fenn | a machine learning system that estimates the likelihood of events and acts on them probably counts as intelligent | 08:38 |
| cluckj | there's no computer equivalent of throwing some salt over its shoulder when it spills some | 08:38 |
| fenn | yes there is, there's tons of model overfitting | 08:38 |
| fenn | the salt thing is socially learned though | 08:39 |
| fenn | computers don't teach each other (yet) | 08:39 |
| cluckj | what I mean is that the rituals a computer does are meaningless to the computer, but full of meaning to a human that does them | 08:39 |
| kanzure | no vitalism | 08:40 |
| fenn | kanzure: memory is not intelligence, they're different things. they're correlated in animals to some extent, so you can use one as a proxy for the other | 08:40 |
| cluckj | the model overfitting is functional and meaningful, but superstitious rituals are non-functional and meaningful | 08:40 |
| fenn | model overfitting is non-functional | 08:40 |
| fenn | otherwise it wouldn't be *over*-fitting | 08:40 |
| kanzure | cluckj: the specific claim is that the rituals are functionally relevant because they are used when it provides a fitness benefit, but also when it's harmless (perhaps more when it's harmless, but at least once when it provides a fitness benefit) | 08:41 |
| kanzure | *but at least once when it provides a fitness benefit | 08:41 |
| cluckj | are the rituals being done specifically to increase fitness? | 08:43 |
| kanzure | no the animals are just nervous/anxious and doing stuff because they are either bored out of their mind or don't have anything else to do | 08:43 |
| fenn | huh? the rituals are being done to increase fitness | 08:44 |
| fenn | you're sick, pray to $deity | 08:44 |
| kanzure | praying to the sky god does not necessa-- | 08:44 |
| kanzure | ok right | 08:44 |
| cluckj | hah | 08:44 |
| cluckj | or you're sick, eat some vitamin C | 08:45 |
| fenn | not sure if the placebo effect counts as a ritual | 08:45 |
| fenn | i think the authors gloss over a lot of important stuff about in-group association and imprinting | 08:46 |
| cluckj | I guess I should actually look at the article before talking shit | 08:46 |
| fenn | (or rather, not mention any of it) | 08:46 |
| kanzure | specificaly, the claim is that computers/software presently do not qualify because...? small behavior repertoire? there's never been a signal correlation software that selects behavior (unlikely)? | 08:46 |
| cluckj | :) | 08:47 |
| fenn | because memory and intelligence are not correlated in computers? | 08:47 |
| kanzure | you can't ask me to consider reality god damn it | 08:48 |
| fenn | well i'm not sure about it | 08:48 |
| kanzure | i suppose it's missing the learning component | 08:49 |
| kanzure | definitely no ability at self-regulation other than memory management and trying to not halt/crash | 08:50 |
| cluckj | I have absolutely no idea what that article is trying to say. | 08:50 |
| cluckj | maybe too much math | 08:51 |
| kanzure | it's just saying "natural selection favors superstitions" or rather "a brain could not have popped out of existence with completely correct hypotheses about the world, but here's how a wrong prediction engine could have been adaptive" | 08:51 |
| fenn | it's just saying that superstition is due to theoretically unresolvable errors in assignment, due to low signal to noise ratio | 08:51 |
| fenn | assignment = your beliefs about causality | 08:51 |
| cluckj | oh | 08:51 |
| cluckj | well, duh? | 08:52 |
| kanzure | i don't think it's just low signal/noise issues, it's also things like "before a brain can make correct assignments, it must (1) be able to make any assignment of any kind at all, and (2) have a propensity to make assignments, and (3) have a propensity to act on those assignments" | 08:52 |
| fenn | "When a causal prior event is not perfectly predictive of a latter event, it will often be possible, with more information, to subdivide the prior event into occasions that are sometimes causal and some that are never causal. And with more information, one might go further and subdivide the former set, and so on. However, whenever an actor cannot fully dissect out the prior events that carry | 08:53 |
| kanzure | and the thesis includes something like "superstitions are harmless beliefs that are sometimes adaptive" | 08:53 |
| fenn | perfect causality, there will be a level at which they are forced to respond to an aggregate of causal and non-causal events, or not respond at all" | 08:53 |
| fenn | and it's better to respond than not to respond, because if you don't respond you sometimes get eaten by a lion | 08:54 |
| kanzure | i hate it when that happens | 08:55 |
| fenn | pesky felines | 08:55 |
| kanzure | it sounds like, given the other components the names or types of which i don't quite understand, that even a mostly wrong but eventful machine learning signal correlation thingy would technically work? | 08:57 |
| kanzure | nevermind that's a non-statement | 08:58 |
| kanzure | er one reason i went looking up superstitious beliefs in evolutionary biology was because i was wondering about using superstitious beliefs or rituals as a psychometric test | 08:58 |
| fenn | whether a mostly wrong signal correlation would be helpful or not depends on the costs of acting in response to the signal vs not acting on it | 08:59 |
| cluckj | you might want to look it up in anthropology instead of evolutionary biology? | 08:59 |
| kanzure | why would anthropology have a thing about psychometric testing? | 08:59 |
| cluckj | because rituals and beliefs? | 09:00 |
| fenn | many rituals are framed as "tests" but are really designed to cause an imprinting or to (re)define one's sense of self | 09:01 |
| fenn | sure, it's difficult to jump over a shark with a laser, but that's not the point | 09:01 |
| fenn | you're now a shark-jumper | 09:02 |
| kanzure | if there was an animal with maybe 100 different rituals similar to laser shark jumping, i'd consider that animal a priority for neuroscience investigation or something | 09:02 |
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| kanzure | well even much fewer i guess | 09:03 |
| kanzure | athough i don't really understand how bored hominids could only have one ritual. | 09:03 |
| fenn | so any given human has practiced much less than 100 different rituals | 09:03 |
| fenn | but all humans combined have millions of htem | 09:03 |
| kanzure | "no way dude, we are the sky god clan, we can't kiss the dirt. gross." | 09:04 |
| fenn | but all bird of paradise do the same hoppy dance | 09:04 |
| cluckj | waaaay more than 100 rituals I'd say | 09:04 |
| kanzure | well i may be using a less strict definition of ritual there. there's a tleast 100 behaviors that humans do that seem like rituals. | 09:04 |
| fenn | uh. please define then | 09:04 |
| kanzure | long sequence of behavior | 09:05 |
| fenn | closing the bathroom door before you pee, is it a ritual? | 09:06 |
| kanzure | going to a bathroom to pee is somewhat ritualistic | 09:06 |
| fenn | eating with silverware and dishes, ritual? | 09:06 |
| kanzure | there's definitely a lot of specific things going on there, like setup and teardown of dinner, how you eat, how you hold the forks, how you put food into your mandibles | 09:07 |
| fenn | folding of napkins into penguin shapes, ritual? | 09:07 |
| cluckj | non-verbal ways of constructing order and meaning out of a chaotic mess | 09:07 |
| kanzure | yeah maybe my definition is too weak | 09:08 |
| kanzure | or too broad | 09:08 |
| kanzure | if you fold the napkin that way more than once or you do it rather frequently then yes that might qualify as a ritual | 09:08 |
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| cluckj | having a napkin is ritualistic | 09:08 |
| fenn | well i dont even know what it's called or how to fold it, but i've seen it done many times | 09:09 |
| cluckj | you have made a thing that's made to wipe stuff up with | 09:09 |
| kanzure | toilet paper? | 09:09 |
| fenn | hmm... http://www.napkinfoldingguide.com/ | 09:10 |
| cluckj | yes | 09:10 |
| fenn | i was thinking "the crown" | 09:10 |
| cluckj | what shape you fold (or don't fold) a napkin in is ritualistic of a belief or value system | 09:11 |
| kanzure | i guess i'm comparatively obsessive about that, http://images.dailystar-uk.co.uk/dynamic/1/photos/49000/84049.jpg | 09:11 |
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| cluckj | not necessarily obsessive, but orderly | 09:11 |
| fenn | .. a stack of paper napkins, why? | 09:11 |
| kanzure | because i don't need to remember where i put the rest of the napkin | 09:12 |
| kanzure | it's like feeder stock | 09:12 |
| cluckj | having the napkin-folding ritual of making it flat and square is part of a meaning system that privledges order | 09:12 |
| cluckj | (geometric order, I guess) | 09:12 |
| fenn | or maybe they just stack well because they tile 3-space | 09:13 |
| fenn | same reason everything else is square | 09:13 |
| fenn | i don't think "having napkins" is a ritual | 09:13 |
| cluckj | everything is square *here* because we value optimizing the filling of space | 09:14 |
| fenn | oh god don't go all anthro-professor on me | 09:14 |
| cluckj | fenn, it's an object that was made for a specific purpose in a cleanliness ritual | 09:14 |
| cluckj | I can't help itttttttttt | 09:14 |
| kanzure | cluckj: it would help if you could pretend it is a biology thing ("well spiders clearly aren't folding napkins, only humans") then fenn wont notice | 09:15 |
| cluckj | lol | 09:15 |
| fenn | i'm pretty sure that doing things in the world that have reliable functional outcomes (like getting food off your face) does not count as a ritual | 09:16 |
| CaptHindsight | ritual, tradition or compulsive behavior? | 09:16 |
| kanzure | i don't understand your shark jumper point | 09:16 |
| fenn | jumping over a shark with a laser is pointless and dangerous and can have no other purpose than to signify group membership | 09:16 |
| cluckj | fenn, needing to get food off your face during/after eating is part of a cleaning and eating ritual | 09:17 |
| cluckj | like....it's good manners to keep your face clean | 09:17 |
| cluckj | so you have a special tool to do it | 09:17 |
| fenn | did we talk about frat hazing rituals in here before? i forget | 09:17 |
| CaptHindsight | depending on the culture | 09:18 |
| cluckj | CaptHindsight, yep | 09:18 |
| CaptHindsight | how about belching for an example | 09:18 |
| kanzure | so "spitting out responses to maybe-random events is adaptive in animals/intelligence, but not necessarily useful in computers"? | 09:18 |
| CaptHindsight | loud vs silent | 09:18 |
| kanzure | oh right i claimed that the learning component has been missing in computers | 09:18 |
| fenn | cluckj: it's good manners to make sure your nails are pounded in all the way, so i have a special tool to do it | 09:19 |
| fenn | it's good manners not to die in a fire, so i have a special tool to warn me of a fire | 09:19 |
| CaptHindsight | do computers get bored? or seek stimulus | 09:19 |
| kanzure | CaptHindsight: too vague, that's not meaningful | 09:20 |
| kanzure | well, maybe not | 09:20 |
| cluckj | fenn, "manners" isn't the right thing in those cases | 09:20 |
| CaptHindsight | reasons for computers to spit out random responses | 09:20 |
| fenn | kanzure there are computers that learn though | 09:20 |
| kanzure | memory is not the same thing as learning | 09:21 |
| kanzure | er... is it? | 09:21 |
| fenn | it's probably important to distinguish learning computers from non-learning computers | 09:21 |
| fenn | memory is not the same thing as learning | 09:21 |
| fenn | learning involves generalization and model creation | 09:21 |
| fenn | .wik learning | 09:22 |
| yoleaux | "Learning is the act of acquiring new, or modifying and reinforcing, existing knowledge, behaviors, skills, values, or preferences and may involve synthesizing different types of information. The ability to learn is possessed by humans, animals and some machines. Progress over time tends to follow learning curves." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learning | 09:22 |
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| fenn | .wik memory | 09:22 |
| yoleaux | "In psychology, memory is the process in which information is encoded, stored, and retrieved. Encoding allows information from the outside world to reach the five senses in the forms of chemical and physical stimuli. In this first stage the information must be changed so that it may be put into the encoding process." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory | 09:22 |
| fenn | i think if your experience does not modify your behavior in any way, it doesn't count as learning | 09:23 |
| kanzure | i was thinking of using ritual length, ritual variety, number of rituals, stimulus/response discrimination, as a psychometric test in animals for selective breeding of intelligence | 09:25 |
| fenn | do you have animals that do rituals? | 09:25 |
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| kanzure | and then i thought "oh i have a psychometric test, let me hook it up to some random number generator on a computer..." but i think this wont work (i'm still struggling to explain why) | 09:26 |
| kanzure | yes dogs have rituals | 09:26 |
| fenn | uh, like turning around three times before laying down? | 09:26 |
| kanzure | and everyone likes to laugh at their dumb superstitious dogs | 09:26 |
| fenn | kicking grass over their poo? | 09:26 |
| kanzure | kicking grass over poo is more like an instinct (whatever the hell that is) | 09:27 |
| fenn | i can't think of any dog rituals i guess | 09:27 |
| kanzure | turning around three times is an okay example, but might also be instinct... maybe something more complex would be a better example. | 09:27 |
| fenn | why not just select for performance on intelligence tests? | 09:28 |
| kanzure | playing games is ritualistic | 09:28 |
| kanzure | wasn't there all sorts of problems with those tests though | 09:29 |
| kanzure | like, just because an octopus doesn't know how to read does not mean it is not intelligent | 09:29 |
| fenn | most intelligence tests don't require knowledge of how to read | 09:30 |
| fenn | being "knowledge-free" is pretty much a requirement for modern tests | 09:30 |
| kanzure | does it require knowledge of how to select answers | 09:30 |
| kanzure | or that answers exist | 09:31 |
| kanzure | also, give me an actual example | 09:31 |
| fenn | a maze, or putting pegs in holes, or picking the box with the treat hidden in it | 09:31 |
| fenn | it doesn't require knowledge that answers exist, only a desire to get to the end and get the treat | 09:34 |
| kanzure | er i am having troube finding data about human maze performance | 09:35 |
| kanzure | surely someone has compared human maze performance with mouse maze performance | 09:35 |
| CaptHindsight | fenn: how do those tests account for mood, exhaustion, how hungry you might be, how much you like cheese and the type of cheese? | 09:35 |
| fenn | i don't care | 09:35 |
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| cluckj | lol | 09:48 |
| * fenn performs the morning shower ritual | 09:48 | |
| cluckj | all rituals are behaviors, but not all behaviors are rituals | 09:48 |
| * cluckj just performed the morning shower ritual | 09:49 | |
| kanzure | sheena: tell us an elaborate dog ritual that dogs do? | 09:51 |
| sheena | kanzure: is a ritual different from a fixed action pattern? | 09:52 |
| kanzure | long chained behavior, might look or be superstitious | 09:53 |
| kanzure | definitely not just a yawn or yelp | 09:53 |
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| sheena | fixed action patterns are different then | 09:54 |
| sheena | you're thinking of stuff like, when i let reiker in, and he checks if the bedroom door is open. if it is, he joyously bounds into the bedroom, gets up on the bed, gets down, check the window, then checks the chair.. and if i don't intervene, he'll then get up on the bed and lie down | 09:54 |
| sheena | ? | 09:54 |
| sheena | also i gotta go for a bit. ping me if oyu want me to follow up on this | 09:55 |
| kanzure | does he do that exact order? | 09:55 |
| sheena | every time | 09:55 |
| kanzure | nice | 09:55 |
| kanzure | yes that | 09:55 |
| sheena | no idea if this is of interest here, but i made a thing cuase i was rustrated with there being no things: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5TutKGCvLM if you're gonna watch it, set it to like 2x speed for sure | 09:55 |
| sheena | ttyl | 09:55 |
| kanzure | use solidworks | 09:56 |
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| Taek | my dog had a ritiual of drinking water whenever someone got home. He'd greet the person enthusiatically, drink water, and then greet the person a second time | 10:02 |
| Taek | 9 times out of 10 | 10:02 |
| Taek | re: computers and rituals - the computers generally didn't design the rituals themselves | 10:02 |
| Taek | an adaptive computer that's creating it's own rituals I would consider intellignet | 10:03 |
| archels | hm, I'm getting a Tdiff of (47.5-1.3) = 46.2 °C running this 120W Peltier at 100W | 10:19 |
| archels | preliminary tests have already indicated that stacking them will be a pain in the neck to get right | 10:19 |
| kanzure | does stacking mean physical stacking | 10:29 |
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| archels | yep | 10:32 |
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| streety | Taek - no longer need to worry about holding it in with a walk imminent? | 11:24 |
| streety | archels, what are you trying to cool? | 11:24 |
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| kanzure | .title http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09515089.2011.579420#.VTKmtVIX3RY | 11:47 |
| yoleaux | An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie | 11:47 |
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| kanzure | ("How convenient! The epistemic rationale of self-validating belief systems") | 11:48 |
| kanzure | that's for cluckj, anyone else should avoid because they will burn alive after reading or something | 11:48 |
| kanzure | ("This paper offers an epistemological discussion of self-validating belief systems and the recurrence of “epistemic defense mechanisms” and “immunizing strategies” across widely different domains of knowledge. We challenge the idea that typical “weird” belief systems are inherently fragile, and we argue that, instead, they exhibit a surprising degree of resilience in the face of adverse evidence and criticism. Borrowing from ... | 11:48 |
| kanzure | ... the psychological research on belief perseverance, rationalization and motivated reasoning, we argue that the human mind is particularly susceptible to belief systems that are structurally self-validating.") | 11:49 |
| kanzure | eh nevermind | 11:50 |
| kanzure | "False memory susceptibility is correlated with [positive] categorisation ability in humans" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4168836.1/ | 11:51 |
| archels | streety: I'm trying to get down to -35 to make a cloud chamber | 11:51 |
| kanzure | "people are more superstitious in bad times" makes sense; retreat to previous behavior routines. | 11:52 |
| streety | I would guess the thermal load would be minimal | 11:52 |
| nmz787 | http://diyhpl.us/~nmz787/pdf/How_convenient_The_epistemic_rationale_of_self-validating_belief_systems.pdf | 11:53 |
| streety | I was wondering why you weren't going with a compressor based approach | 11:53 |
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| kanzure | evolution of cognitive error http://www.artexperience.it/uploads/9/2/9/2/9292963/errormanagement_cognitiveconstraints_adaptivedecisionmakingbias.pdf | 11:53 |
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| * archels wonders how often nmz787 gets terrible submissions on takeitapart | 11:57 | |
| nmz787 | archels: not much | 11:57 |
| nmz787 | I think we forgot something in implementing the site, as it hasn't drawn as much interest as we thought it might | 11:58 |
| archels | I took some 5V adapters apart last night, submitted some photos but thought it was pretty terrible overall | 11:59 |
| archels | in the process I figured you must get blurry phone pics and illegible guides on a regular basis | 12:00 |
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| nmz787 | oh the deal extreme adapters? | 12:04 |
| delinquentme | rails IRC isnt as helpful as it used to b | 12:06 |
| nmz787 | I wish there were more documentaries on interesting things on netflix :/ | 12:13 |
| kanzure | you might enjoy "microcosm" | 12:13 |
| kanzure | .g site:youtube.com microscosm | 12:14 |
| yoleaux | https://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=cyh0QJT0rAQ | 12:14 |
| kanzure | .title | 12:14 |
| yoleaux | Alle Kommentare zu Winter on Georgian Bay - YouTube | 12:14 |
| kanzure | bah no | 12:14 |
| nmz787 | well like netflix has nothing on electron microscopes | 12:14 |
| nmz787 | why weren't those guys good enough for a documentary? | 12:15 |
| kanzure | here, how about http://movies.nationalgeographic.com/movies/mysteries-of-the-unseen-world/photos/ | 12:16 |
| kanzure | oh, nevermind | 12:16 |
| nmz787 | .wik http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Hillier | 12:17 |
| yoleaux | "James Hillier, OC (August 22, 1915 – January 15, 2007) was a Canadian-born scientist and inventor who designed and built, with Albert Prebus, the first successful high-resolution electron microscope in North America in 1938." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Hillier | 12:17 |
| nmz787 | no documentaries | 12:17 |
| delinquentme | http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/ | 12:17 |
| kanzure | he's not looking for top rated | 12:17 |
| nmz787 | top-rated would seem to be more enthralling | 12:17 |
| delinquentme | hahah | 12:19 |
| delinquentme | http://basicdocumetnaryfilms.com/ | 12:19 |
| nmz787 | delinquentme: that website doesn't exist for me | 12:21 |
| nmz787 | :P | 12:21 |
| delinquentme | have you tried ctrl + f5 ? | 12:21 |
| delinquentme | DNS might be still being migrated | 12:22 |
| delinquentme | I only made it 5 minutes ago | 12:22 |
| nmz787 | haha | 12:22 |
| nmz787 | delinquentme: did you register with the typo? | 12:23 |
| delinquentme | crap ! | 12:23 |
| delinquentme | stupid copy paste | 12:23 |
| delinquentme | what i get for disabling auto spell correct | 12:23 |
| delinquentme | it messes w my trolling attempts | 12:24 |
| archels | nmz787: oh, I have to get vetted again | 12:30 |
| archels | (why do I need to get vetted 5 times?) | 12:30 |
| delinquentme | archels, watchoo vetting? | 12:31 |
| delinquentme | rabies? | 12:31 |
| archels | thanks for passing it through anyway =) | 12:31 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, help me sell shit to heal horse tendons | 12:31 |
| delinquentme | and human testosterone | 12:32 |
| archels | no no, I am being vetted—by nmz787's site | 12:32 |
| nmz787 | archels: one sec | 12:32 |
| delinquentme | archels, just scream IM A FUCKING ROBOT | 12:32 |
| delinquentme | that typically passes any / all IRL CAPTCHAS | 12:32 |
| nmz787 | archels: did you change something? | 12:32 |
| nmz787 | archels: or add another? | 12:32 |
| archels | I changed something | 12:32 |
| kanzure | are you worried your users are faking pictures? or what | 12:32 |
| kanzure | "HEY that picture of your supercollider is obviously photoshopped i can tell by the pixels" | 12:33 |
| nmz787 | archels: k | 12:33 |
| nmz787 | obv we need a diff for things that have changed | 12:33 |
| nmz787 | after the other guys scaled to using docker for different components I totally lost ability to get on and debug or add new features :/ | 12:34 |
| delinquentme | nmz787, takeitapart? | 12:35 |
| nmz787 | sorry I just can't do sysadmin /and/ analog electronics | 12:35 |
| nmz787 | delinquentme: yea | 12:35 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, why you shopping colliders ? we got one IRL | 12:35 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: it was just a filter for new users... as archels said it's for the first 5 submissions | 12:35 |
| nmz787 | since we planned originally to give the users a share of the ad-clicks that showed up on their guides | 12:36 |
| kanzure | first five? brutal | 12:36 |
| kanzure | giving users a share of ad click revenue is against the terms of like every major ad network | 12:36 |
| nmz787 | huh | 12:36 |
| nmz787 | really? | 12:36 |
| archels | haha | 12:36 |
| nmz787 | that's unexpected | 12:36 |
| nmz787 | we figured it would only encourage good content to be posted | 12:37 |
| nmz787 | giving them incentive to clean up their own guides | 12:37 |
| archels | nmz787: I might have added some more detail later, but this is making me feel kindof unwelcome | 12:37 |
| kanzure | yes, but that's not what their concern is | 12:37 |
| archels | you've verified that I'm a human being, no? | 12:37 |
| nmz787 | archels: the submission block? | 12:37 |
| nmz787 | mmm, yes | 12:37 |
| nmz787 | there may be a way for me to remvoe it without touching the database directly | 12:37 |
| nmz787 | one sec | 12:37 |
| kanzure | ... live changes to production. tsk tsk. | 12:38 |
| nmz787 | archels: all I can say it so modify it, i'll approve, mod, i'll approve, until we get to 5 times | 12:39 |
| nmz787 | s/say it so/say is to/ | 12:39 |
| archels | don't worry about it, I meant it more as a general site comment, on behalf of all current and future users | 12:41 |
| archels | maybe if there's a 5 in the code somewhere you could change it to a 1 | 12:41 |
| nmz787 | yeah I think that's all it is | 12:42 |
| kanzure | you could do sms verification | 12:46 |
| kanzure | as a cheat | 12:46 |
| streety | does any site have a two track approach to approval "you're in a queue for manual review, if you want instant approval answer this CAPTCHA/enter your phone number for sms verification"? | 12:55 |
| kanzure | no they usually never tell you about manual review | 12:56 |
| kanzure | that's leaking too many details | 12:56 |
| streety | if your post/submisson isn't showing up isn't it kind of implied? | 12:57 |
| nmz787 | is there some software like an image gallery where you can mark images as you go through the directory that is loaded... and at the end have the ones you marked moved to a sub-dir? | 13:04 |
| nmz787 | I'm sure I can make something like this with python and tk in an hour or so... but I need to go hiking | 13:05 |
| streety | can't you do that with any file manager? select the ones you want and then drag to a folder or ctrl-x, ctrl-v? | 13:08 |
| nmz787 | well but I can't zoom in and out easily there | 13:11 |
| nmz787 | and you forgot 2 alt-tab operations | 13:11 |
| nmz787 | i want to hit the right button on my kb, hit spacebar to select the image... mouse wheel to zoom | 13:12 |
| streety | I'm not sure I ever knew about an alt-tab option | 13:12 |
| nmz787 | and I guess when zoomed, the up down right left become navigation around the image, rather than moving from one image to another | 13:12 |
| nmz787 | you haven't known about alt-tab? | 13:13 |
| streety | for moving files? I don't think so | 13:13 |
| nmz787 | no switching windows | 13:14 |
| nmz787 | between the source and target directories, etc | 13:14 |
| streety | ah gotcha | 13:14 |
| nmz787 | really I should implement this for the takeitapart upload page | 13:15 |
| nmz787 | client-side | 13:15 |
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| cluckj | kanzure, that paper had me at "weird beliefs" | 15:39 |
| cluckj | the don quixote bit on p. 348 is really nice | 15:42 |
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| Taek | http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10802-015-0011-1 | 17:43 |
| Taek | "Excess gross motor activity (hyperactivity) is considered a core diagnostic feature of childhood ADHD that impedes learning. This view has been challenged, however, by recent models that conceptualize excess motor activity as a compensatory mechanism that facilitates neurocognitive functioning in children with ADHD." | 17:44 |
| kanzure | "impedes learning" they mean classroom behavior | 17:47 |
| Taek | hmm. My interpretation of "excess gross motor activity" included things like shaking the leg, rocking back and forth, etc | 17:48 |
| Taek | and not necessarily things that would disrupt classroom learning | 17:49 |
| kanzure | uh, to my knowledge nobody ever thought that stims were impeding learning | 17:49 |
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| Taek | you would know better than I | 17:49 |
| kanzure | Taek: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Intense%20world%20syndrome%20-%20an%20alternative%20hypothesis%20for%20autism%20-%20Markram.pdf | 17:49 |
| kanzure | also, something about not being addicted to boredom | 17:51 |
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| kanzure | yeah as far as i know nobody has ever seriously considered motor activity as something that impedes learning... it's like saying you can't learn while writing. | 17:53 |
| Taek | I find it interesting nonetheless that for ADHD kids, motor activity helped while for "traditional development" kids, motor activity hurt. | 17:57 |
| Taek | " Analysis of the relations among intra-individual changes in observed activity level, attention, and performance revealed that higher rates of activity level predicted significantly better, but not normalized WM performance for children with ADHD. Conversely, higher rates of activity level predicted somewhat lower WM performance for TD children. " | 17:58 |
| kanzure | here is some stuff on working memory http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/working-memory/ | 17:59 |
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| kanzure | http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3886488/ "Nobel Peace Prize nominees David Matas and David Kilgour investigate the organ harvesting trade in China" (negative) | 18:28 |
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| kanzure | 18:55 <+xentrac> so I was just thinking about how my city is annoyingly polluted | 18:57 |
| kanzure | 18:56 <+kanzure> replace the atmosphere with a substitute | 18:57 |
| kanzure | 18:57 <+xentrac> right | 18:57 |
| gene_hacker | well it is pretty impractical to wear a gasmask everywhere | 19:05 |
| kanzure | 19:02 <+kanzure> you could do beamshaping of oxygen jetstreams through the atmosphere focused at individual people | 19:06 |
| kanzure | 19:02 <+kanzure> on-demand delivery of oxygen per breath | 19:06 |
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| gene_hacker | yeah good luck with that | 19:13 |
| kanzure | pfft you're one to speak, how's your nanotech palace coming along | 19:14 |
| kanzure | (no really, sup?) | 19:14 |
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| jrayhawk_ | i think his nanotech palace just ate him | 19:15 |
| kanzure | the guy can't take a joke | 19:15 |
| jrayhawk_ | i expect an earthquake will come and my CRT palace will do the same | 19:15 |
| kanzure | no your crt palace will protect you because you're stuck in the 90s | 19:16 |
| kanzure | computronium didn't exist back then | 19:16 |
| kanzure | you're safe | 19:16 |
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| kanzure | .title http://chapters.marssociety.org/usa/oh/aero5.htm | 19:35 |
| yoleaux | MEDICAL EMERGENCIES IN SPACE | 19:35 |
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| kanzure | i wonder if vials marked "DNA EVIDENCE" left at crime scenes would be enough for "reasonable doubt" | 21:13 |
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| andytoshi | kanzure: i'd expect actual bags to have serial numbers | 21:14 |
| kanzure | bags? | 21:14 |
| andytoshi | vials | 21:14 |
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| Taek | :q | 22:00 |
| Taek | whoops | 22:00 |
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| --- Log closed Sun Apr 19 00:00:06 2015 | ||
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