| --- Log opened Wed Dec 09 00:00:32 2015 | ||
| -!- zookolap` [~user@223.197.144.64] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:09 | |
| -!- zookolaptop [~user@223.197.144.64] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 00:09 | |
| -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:10 | |
| bramc | When people on twitter act like they know what they're talking about and say things like we're way below monopoly blocksize it makes me despair for the future. | 00:10 |
|---|---|---|
| fluffypony | bramc: that's not solely a Twitter problem, that's a just-enough-knowledge-to-be-dangerous problem | 00:11 |
| fluffypony | it's frightening how many people tackle system design that is well outside of their realm of expertise, and then ignore input from those they should consider peers (writing it off as FUD or jealousy or something equally nonsensical) | 00:12 |
| -!- bendavenport [~bpd@c-50-131-42-132.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bendavenport] | 00:12 | |
| -!- LeMiner [LeMiner@unaffiliated/leminer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:13 | |
| -!- tromp [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:14 | |
| -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 00:14 | |
| -!- zookolap` is now known as zooko | 00:14 | |
| bramc | fluffypony, I understand people not understanding macroeconomics. I can even understand people not understanding that macroeconomics doesn't apply to Bitcoin. But not understanding microeconomics? In simple scenarios which can be fully worked out on paper in just a few minutes? | 00:15 |
| -!- LeMiner2 [LeMiner@5ED1AFBF.cm-7-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 00:15 | |
| zooko | bramc: do you mean me? | 00:15 |
| bramc | zooko, You weren't the worst offender | 00:16 |
| -!- p15 [~p15@16.91.145.64.client.static.strong-tk2.bringover.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 00:16 | |
| -!- tromp [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 00:18 | |
| -!- GAit [~GAit@202.83.241.113] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 00:21 | |
| -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 00:25 | |
| -!- NewLiberty [~Joseph@2602:306:b8e0:8160:48fd:67a3:33f8:95b0] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:28 | |
| -!- p15x [~p15x@61.149.240.136] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:29 | |
| -!- p15 [~p15@109.91.145.64.client.static.strong-tk2.bringover.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:30 | |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@142-254-26-9.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 00:30 | |
| -!- GAit [~GAit@202.83.241.113] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:31 | |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@142-254-26-9.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:31 | |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@142-254-26-9.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 00:41 | |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@142-254-26-9.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:42 | |
| -!- digitalmagus8 [~digitalma@unaffiliated/digitalmagus] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:42 | |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 00:47 | |
| -!- NLNico [~NLNico@unaffiliated/nlnico] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 00:47 | |
| -!- NewLiberty [~Joseph@2602:306:b8e0:8160:48fd:67a3:33f8:95b0] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 00:49 | |
| -!- bit2017 [~linker@115.79.55.177] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:50 | |
| -!- nivah [~linker@115.79.55.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 00:53 | |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@142-254-26-9.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 00:54 | |
| -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:56 | |
| -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@202.83.241.187] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 00:57 | |
| -!- taek42- [~david@202.83.241.187] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 01:04 | |
| -!- taek42- [~david@202.83.241.187] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:04 | |
| -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 01:04 | |
| -!- matsjj [~matsjj@89.197.31.78] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:06 | |
| -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:07 | |
| -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Client Quit] | 01:07 | |
| -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:07 | |
| -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Client Quit] | 01:07 | |
| -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:09 | |
| -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 01:09 | |
| -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Client Quit] | 01:09 | |
| -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:09 | |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@142-254-26-9.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:15 | |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@142-254-26-9.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 01:20 | |
| -!- jtoomim_ [~jtoomim@202.83.241.113] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 01:24 | |
| -!- GAit [~GAit@202.83.241.113] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 01:25 | |
| -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@202.83.241.187] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:25 | |
| -!- GAit [~GAit@202.83.241.113] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:28 | |
| -!- gielbier [~giel____@a149043.upc-a.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:30 | |
| -!- gielbier [~giel____@a149043.upc-a.chello.nl] has quit [Changing host] | 01:30 | |
| -!- gielbier [~giel____@unaffiliated/gielbier] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:30 | |
| -!- GAit [~GAit@202.83.241.113] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 01:41 | |
| -!- NewLiberty [~Joseph@2602:306:b8e0:8160:48fd:67a3:33f8:95b0] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:42 | |
| -!- p15x [~p15x@61.149.240.136] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] | 01:44 | |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:44 | |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 01:47 | |
| -!- GAit [~GAit@202.83.241.113] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:51 | |
| -!- zooko is now known as zooko_on_phoner | 01:58 | |
| -!- sparetire_ [~sparetire@unaffiliated/sparetire] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:04 | |
| -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:07 | |
| -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:09 | |
| -!- GAit [~GAit@202.83.241.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 02:13 | |
| -!- zooko_on` [~user@223.197.144.64] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:13 | |
| -!- zooko_on_phoner [~user@223.197.144.64] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 02:14 | |
| -!- zooko_on` is now known as zooko | 02:15 | |
| -!- liteIRC_ [~zooko@223.197.144.64] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:17 | |
| -!- jtimon [~quassel@182.239.66.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 02:21 | |
| -!- zooko is now known as zookolaptop | 02:21 | |
| -!- liteIRC_ [~zooko@223.197.144.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 02:22 | |
| -!- NewLiberty [~Joseph@2602:306:b8e0:8160:48fd:67a3:33f8:95b0] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 02:28 | |
| -!- taek42- [~david@202.83.241.187] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 02:32 | |
| -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@202.83.241.187] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 02:33 | |
| -!- nivah [~linker@115.79.55.177] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:34 | |
| -!- zooko [~zooko@223.197.144.64] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:34 | |
| -!- bit2017 [~linker@115.79.55.177] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 02:35 | |
| -!- gielbier [~giel____@unaffiliated/gielbier] has quit [Read error: No route to host] | 02:35 | |
| -!- giel__ [~giel____@a149043.upc-a.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:35 | |
| -!- giel__ [~giel____@a149043.upc-a.chello.nl] has quit [Changing host] | 02:35 | |
| -!- giel__ [~giel____@unaffiliated/gielbier] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:35 | |
| -!- giel__ is now known as gielbier | 02:35 | |
| -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] | 02:37 | |
| -!- nivah [~linker@115.79.55.177] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 02:44 | |
| -!- bit2017 [~linker@115.79.55.177] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:45 | |
| -!- NewLiberty [~Joseph@2602:306:b8e0:8160:48fd:67a3:33f8:95b0] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:45 | |
| -!- liteIRC_ [~zooko@172.56.7.111] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:46 | |
| -!- zookolaptop [~user@223.197.144.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 02:46 | |
| -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@59-100-109-145.cust.static-ipl.aapt.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:47 | |
| -!- zooko [~zooko@223.197.144.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 02:48 | |
| -!- liteIRC_ is now known as zooko | 02:48 | |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:05 | |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 03:06 | |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:06 | |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 03:11 | |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:11 | |
| -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@59-100-109-145.cust.static-ipl.aapt.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 03:12 | |
| -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@vpn-m.media.mit.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:12 | |
| -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@202.83.241.187] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:18 | |
| -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@202.83.241.187] has quit [Changing host] | 03:18 | |
| -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:18 | |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 03:22 | |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:22 | |
| -!- N0S4A2 [~weechat@216-243-38-141.users.condointernet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 03:24 | |
| -!- NewLiberty [~Joseph@2602:306:b8e0:8160:48fd:67a3:33f8:95b0] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 03:28 | |
| -!- zooko [~zooko@172.56.7.111] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 03:33 | |
| -!- markus-k [~markus-k@designnet.work.de] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 03:37 | |
| -!- bliljerk_ [~bliljerk1@c-71-60-0-241.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 03:40 | |
| -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@pcd535135.netvigator.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:43 | |
| -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@vpn-m.media.mit.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 03:50 | |
| -!- atgreen_ [~green@CPE687f74122463-CM00fc8d24cab0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 03:54 | |
| -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@pcd535135.netvigator.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 03:57 | |
| -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@59-100-109-145.cust.static-ipl.aapt.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:59 | |
| -!- bit2017 [~linker@115.79.55.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 03:59 | |
| -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@59-100-109-145.cust.static-ipl.aapt.com.au] has quit [Client Quit] | 04:01 | |
| -!- markus-k [~markus-k@designnet.work.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:02 | |
| -!- matsjj_ [~matsjj@162.216.46.24] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:03 | |
| -!- matsjj [~matsjj@89.197.31.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 04:05 | |
| -!- p15 [~p15@109.91.145.64.client.static.strong-tk2.bringover.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 04:11 | |
| -!- jposner [~jposner@ca.00.39a9.ip4.static.sl-reverse.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 04:15 | |
| -!- shesek [~shesek@84.110.37.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 04:17 | |
| -!- shesek [~shesek@bzq-84-110-37-115.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:19 | |
| -!- tripleslash [~triplesla@unaffiliated/imsaguy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 04:20 | |
| -!- tripleslash [~triplesla@unaffiliated/imsaguy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:20 | |
| -!- tromp [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:48 | |
| -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f11db5b.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:49 | |
| -!- tromp [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 04:53 | |
| -!- zooko [~zooko@172.56.7.111] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:04 | |
| -!- lmatteis [uid3300@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qynpvkitxsqbkhsa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:05 | |
| -!- King_Rex [~King_Rex@unaffiliated/king-rex/x-3258444] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:16 | |
| -!- Yoghur114 [~Yoghurt11@131.224.198.111] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:16 | |
| -!- hashtagg [~hashtagg_@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:17 | |
| -!- hashtagg_ [~hashtag@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:17 | |
| -!- King_Rex [~King_Rex@unaffiliated/king-rex/x-3258444] has quit [Client Quit] | 05:18 | |
| -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 05:19 | |
| -!- hashtag [~hashtagg_@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] | 05:19 | |
| -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 05:24 | |
| -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 05:25 | |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Quit: Quitte] | 05:27 | |
| -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:29 | |
| -!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 05:42 | |
| -!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:55 | |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:06 | |
| -!- optimator [~optimator@ec2-54-205-93-122.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 06:10 | |
| -!- optimator [~optimator@ec2-54-205-93-122.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:10 | |
| -!- optimator [~optimator@ec2-54-205-93-122.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Changing host] | 06:10 | |
| -!- optimator [~optimator@unaffiliated/optimator] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:10 | |
| -!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 06:11 | |
| -!- nubbins`_ [~leel@unaffiliated/nubbins] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:21 | |
| -!- nubbins` [~leel@unaffiliated/nubbins] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 06:22 | |
| -!- nubbins`_ is now known as nubbins` | 06:22 | |
| -!- berndj [~berndj@196-210-13-252.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 06:24 | |
| -!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:25 | |
| -!- berndj-blackout is now known as berndj | 06:28 | |
| instagibbs | re:price and vulnerabilities, people commonly claim that if 0-conf is further eroded(?) that the utility/price of Bitcoin will drop. Of course there have been tons of 0-conf double-spends, with seemingly no effect on price. | 06:33 |
| -!- frankenmint [~frankenmi@75-175-72-226.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 06:36 | |
| -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 06:40 | |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 06:42 | |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:43 | |
| -!- jonasschnelli_ [~jonasschn@2a01:4f8:200:7025::2] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] | 06:46 | |
| -!- jonasschnelli [~jonasschn@2a01:4f8:200:7025::2] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:46 | |
| -!- jonasschnelli [~jonasschn@2a01:4f8:200:7025::2] has quit [Excess Flood] | 06:46 | |
| -!- jonasschnelli [~jonasschn@2a01:4f8:200:7025::2] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:47 | |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 06:47 | |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:50 | |
| dgenr8 | ironically, the most predictable effect of continued small blocks combined with increased acceptance of the currency will be a massive increase in hosted wallets | 06:51 |
| -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 06:51 | |
| pigeons | supporting a price based on something that doesnt work the way you say is pretty shady | 06:52 |
| -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:56 | |
| -!- liteIRC_ [~zooko@n11211973234.netvigator.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:02 | |
| -!- zooko [~zooko@172.56.7.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 07:04 | |
| -!- liteIRC_ is now known as zooko | 07:04 | |
| coinoperated_tv | is there a list of known events that did correlate to price changes tracked somewhere? | 07:06 |
| pigeons | off topic, but its the same issue on all markets, like the financial news, that is just speculation | 07:06 |
| coinoperated_tv | not interested in price per se, but the kind of events that do move it, and how far. what signal strength does it take to generate a ripple in the medium. | 07:08 |
| pigeons | that isnt something you can ever know | 07:08 |
| -!- NewLiberty [~Joseph@2602:306:b8e0:8160:48fd:67a3:33f8:95b0] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:09 | |
| coinoperated_tv | depends on how quickly exchanges report, no? Looking at exchanges like seismographic stations | 07:10 |
| -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 07:16 | |
| -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:19 | |
| -!- zookolaptop [~user@n11211973234.netvigator.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:20 | |
| -!- NewLiberty [~Joseph@2602:306:b8e0:8160:48fd:67a3:33f8:95b0] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 07:25 | |
| -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-139-55-215-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:26 | |
| -!- K-JEZ_ [4932b12b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.73.50.177.43] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:27 | |
| -!- markus-k [~markus-k@designnet.work.de] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 07:28 | |
| -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@202.69.71.2] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:29 | |
| -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@202.69.71.2] has quit [Changing host] | 07:29 | |
| -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:29 | |
| -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has quit [Quit: .] | 07:33 | |
| -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:35 | |
| -!- frankenmint [~frankenmi@75-175-72-226.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:37 | |
| -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:41 | |
| -!- Casper- [~Casper@garza.riseup.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 07:41 | |
| -!- frankenmint [~frankenmi@75-175-72-226.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 07:41 | |
| -!- NewLiberty [~Joseph@2602:306:b8e0:8160:48fd:67a3:33f8:95b0] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:43 | |
| -!- merlincorey [merlin@nginx/adept/merlincorey] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:48 | |
| -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r179-24-248-218.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:51 | |
| -!- zookolaptop [~user@n11211973234.netvigator.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 07:56 | |
| -!- N0S4A2 [~weechat@216-243-38-141.users.condointernet.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:01 | |
| -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 08:02 | |
| -!- joecool [~joecool@no-sources/joecool] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:06 | |
| -!- tripleslash_i [~triplesla@unaffiliated/imsaguy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:10 | |
| -!- tripleslash [~triplesla@unaffiliated/imsaguy] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 08:10 | |
| -!- mkarrer [~mkarrer@17.Red-83-52-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:14 | |
| -!- CodeShark_ is now known as CodeShark | 08:15 | |
| -!- Burrito [~Burrito@unaffiliated/burrito] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:20 | |
| -!- nubbins` [~leel@unaffiliated/nubbins] has quit [Quit: Quit] | 08:20 | |
| -!- nubbins` [~leel@unaffiliated/nubbins] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:22 | |
| -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 08:40 | |
| -!- TBI_ [~TBI@20.84-48-195.nextgentel.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:50 | |
| -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:51 | |
| -!- SgtStroopwafel [~Chuck@s5597aba6.adsl.online.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 08:51 | |
| -!- TBI [~TBI@20.84-48-195.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 08:52 | |
| -!- SgtStroopwafel [~Chuck@s5597aba6.adsl.online.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:54 | |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 08:57 | |
| -!- Casper- [~Casper@garza.riseup.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:03 | |
| -!- SgtStroopwafel [~Chuck@s5597aba6.adsl.online.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 09:07 | |
| -!- mkarrer [~mkarrer@17.Red-83-52-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [] | 09:13 | |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 09:27 | |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:28 | |
| -!- SgtStroopwafel [~Chuck@s5597aba6.adsl.online.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:33 | |
| -!- NewLiberty [~Joseph@2602:306:b8e0:8160:48fd:67a3:33f8:95b0] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 09:35 | |
| -!- Erik_dc [~erik@d54C620ED.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:37 | |
| -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r179-24-248-218.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 09:40 | |
| bramc | Transaction fees are currently de minimis, so not much conclusions can be drawn from their past movements. | 09:41 |
| -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] | 09:41 | |
| -!- bendavenport [~bpd@96.90.231.161] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:46 | |
| -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:46 | |
| -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:52 | |
| -!- N0S4A2 [~weechat@216-243-38-141.users.condointernet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 09:54 | |
| -!- bit2017 [~linker@171.250.100.43] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:56 | |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:57 | |
| -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: :)] | 09:57 | |
| -!- catcow [sid62269@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fpijoxpwbsxsckvh] has quit [] | 09:59 | |
| -!- catcow [sid62269@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-koiahywnegzmsvcy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:59 | |
| -!- N0S4A2 [~weechat@216-243-38-141.users.condointernet.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:00 | |
| -!- bit2017 [~linker@171.250.100.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 10:01 | |
| -!- bliljerk101 [~bliljerk1@c-71-60-0-241.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:01 | |
| -!- NewLiberty [~Joseph@2602:306:b8e0:8160:48fd:67a3:33f8:95b0] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:02 | |
| -!- dEBRUYNE_ [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:04 | |
| -!- mrkent [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:05 | |
| -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 10:08 | |
| -!- zwick [~zwick@fsf/member/zwick] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:22 | |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 10:24 | |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 10:24 | |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:25 | |
| -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:26 | |
| -!- mrkent_ [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:32 | |
| -!- mrkent [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 10:34 | |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:38 | |
| -!- Yoghur114_2 [~jorn@g227014.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:41 | |
| -!- dEBRUYNE_ [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 10:53 | |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 10:56 | |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:56 | |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 10:58 | |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:05 | |
| -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 11:09 | |
| -!- lmatteis [uid3300@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qynpvkitxsqbkhsa] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] | 11:16 | |
| -!- gielbier [~giel____@unaffiliated/gielbier] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 11:18 | |
| -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@59-100-109-145.cust.static-ipl.aapt.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:21 | |
| -!- Casper- [~Casper@garza.riseup.net] has quit [Quit: Casper-] | 11:34 | |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 11:37 | |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:39 | |
| -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:40 | |
| -!- Casper- [~Casper@2605:e000:4ddb:7300:e148:bfb8:c386:d3a4] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:41 | |
| -!- hackerman [~hackerman@ip5b401d10.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:43 | |
| -!- gielbier [~giel____@a149043.upc-a.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:58 | |
| -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@59-100-109-145.cust.static-ipl.aapt.com.au] has quit [Quit: GGuyZ] | 11:58 | |
| -!- Casper- [~Casper@2605:e000:4ddb:7300:e148:bfb8:c386:d3a4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 12:01 | |
| -!- Casper- [~Casper@garza.riseup.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:06 | |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 12:07 | |
| -!- c0rw|zZz is now known as c0rw1n | 12:11 | |
| -!- bendavenport [~bpd@96.90.231.161] has quit [Quit: bendavenport] | 12:12 | |
| -!- Newyorkadam [~Newyorkad@wikipedia/Newyorkadam] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:12 | |
| -!- bendavenport [~bpd@96.90.231.161] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:13 | |
| -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 12:18 | |
| -!- NewLiberty [~Joseph@2602:306:b8e0:8160:48fd:67a3:33f8:95b0] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 12:27 | |
| -!- c-cex-yuriy [uid76808@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vwqezstmrondnbsc] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:28 | |
| -!- TBI_ [~TBI@20.84-48-195.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 12:30 | |
| -!- TBI [~TBI@84.48.195.20] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:32 | |
| -!- TBI [~TBI@84.48.195.20] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] | 12:32 | |
| -!- bramc [~bram@38.99.42.130] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:32 | |
| -!- TBI [~TBI@84.48.195.20] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:32 | |
| -!- NewLiberty [~Joseph@adsl-99-171-117-62.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:43 | |
| -!- dEBRUYNE_ [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:47 | |
| -!- oldbrew [brew@24-212-254-57.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:54 | |
| -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:58 | |
| -!- K-JEZ_ [4932b12b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.73.50.177.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] | 13:02 | |
| -!- tripleslash_i is now known as tripleslash | 13:02 | |
| -!- frankenmint [~frankenmi@75-175-72-226.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:07 | |
| -!- matsjj_ [~matsjj@162.216.46.24] has quit [] | 13:11 | |
| -!- JackH [~Jack@host-80-43-143-143.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 13:12 | |
| -!- frankenmint [~frankenmi@75-175-72-226.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 13:13 | |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 13:20 | |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:21 | |
| -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@59-100-109-145.cust.static-ipl.aapt.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:21 | |
| -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 13:26 | |
| -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:29 | |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50.141.32.160] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:30 | |
| -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] | 13:34 | |
| -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-55-151-128.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:37 | |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50.141.32.160] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 13:39 | |
| -!- Casper- [~Casper@garza.riseup.net] has quit [Quit: Casper-] | 13:41 | |
| -!- go1111111 [~go1111111@2604:4080:1128:0:f023:12aa:8c5a:4d24] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 13:47 | |
| -!- Casper- [~Casper@garza.riseup.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:49 | |
| -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:53 | |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@2600:1010:b14f:b346:60f4:49f9:103e:13cd] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:54 | |
| -!- go1111111 [~go1111111@2604:4080:1128:0:a5b6:d9df:a37e:844b] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:59 | |
| -!- Newyorkadam [~Newyorkad@wikipedia/Newyorkadam] has quit [Quit: Newyorkadam] | 14:01 | |
| -!- gielbier [~giel____@a149043.upc-a.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 14:04 | |
| -!- NewLiberty [~Joseph@adsl-99-171-117-62.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 14:08 | |
| -!- NewLiberty [~Joseph@adsl-99-171-117-62.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:08 | |
| -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f11db5b.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 14:09 | |
| -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-55-151-128.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 14:09 | |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@2600:1010:b14f:b346:60f4:49f9:103e:13cd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 14:12 | |
| -!- JackH [~Jack@host-80-43-143-143.as13285.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:13 | |
| -!- gielbier [~giel____@a149043.upc-a.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:13 | |
| -!- gielbier [~giel____@a149043.upc-a.chello.nl] has quit [Changing host] | 14:14 | |
| -!- gielbier [~giel____@unaffiliated/gielbier] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:14 | |
| -!- bramc [~bram@38.99.42.130] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] | 14:19 | |
| -!- kelly [86868b4d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.134.134.139.77] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:22 | |
| -!- Sleepnbum [Sleepnbum@static-72-67-47-196.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:27 | |
| -!- instagibbs_ [~androirc@pool-100-15-115-26.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:32 | |
| -!- instagibbs_ [~androirc@pool-100-15-115-26.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] | 14:32 | |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:34 | |
| -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: :)] | 14:35 | |
| -!- catcow [sid62269@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-koiahywnegzmsvcy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 14:36 | |
| -!- instagibbs2 [~test@pool-100-15-115-26.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:40 | |
| -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vgqihzpdpvbckmsm] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 14:41 | |
| -!- NewLiberty [~Joseph@adsl-99-171-117-62.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 14:41 | |
| -!- frankenmint [~frankenmi@75-175-72-226.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:41 | |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 14:42 | |
| -!- instagibbs2 [~test@pool-100-15-115-26.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] | 14:43 | |
| -!- meZee [~meZee@unaffiliated/swedftp] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 14:47 | |
| -!- Casper- [~Casper@garza.riseup.net] has quit [Quit: Casper-] | 14:54 | |
| -!- jannes [~jannes@092-111-146-044.static.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:59 | |
| -!- Erik_dc [~erik@d54C620ED.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 15:00 | |
| -!- ale______ [~alex@96.90.231.161] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:05 | |
| petertodd | maaku: oh, did alex mizrahi come up with linearized coin history? I should figure this out before I take the credit... | 15:09 |
| kanzure | while you are at it, can you give a good name to "wallets are responsible for keeping their utxos and evidence" schemes? | 15:10 |
| -!- tripleslash_a [~triplesla@unaffiliated/imsaguy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:10 | |
| -!- tripleslash [~triplesla@unaffiliated/imsaguy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 15:10 | |
| -!- ale______ is now known as tachys_ | 15:10 | |
| @gmaxwell | "The STXO zero stroage infinity bandwidth mode." | 15:10 |
| kanzure | so be it | 15:10 |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:16 | |
| -!- bramc [~bram@38.99.42.130] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:24 | |
| -!- catcow [sid62269@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-olrujhukbpidauio] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:24 | |
| aj | gmaxwell: did i get my maths roughly right in figuring segwit lets a miner easily force hashing ~9GB to validate a block versus only about 2.4GB presently? (and if so, does that seem like a problem? my laptop takes ~15s for 2.4GB and 55s for 9.3GB, and 2m for 19.9GB for just straight sha256 of /dev/zero so it seems like it might be) | 15:25 |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:28 | |
| -!- bramc [~bram@38.99.42.130] has quit [Client Quit] | 15:28 | |
| -!- ebfull [~sean@73.34.119.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 15:28 | |
| @gmaxwell | aj: if you're speaking in terms of accurately accounted sigops, in either case the limit is 20,000 per block. Which you can hit now with duplication at a marginal cost of about a byte per sigop | 15:35 |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 15:36 | |
| -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@59-100-109-145.cust.static-ipl.aapt.com.au] has quit [Quit: GGuyZ] | 15:38 | |
| -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@59-100-109-145.cust.static-ipl.aapt.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:38 | |
| -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@59-100-109-145.cust.static-ipl.aapt.com.au] has quit [Client Quit] | 15:38 | |
| @gmaxwell | aj: e.g. dup 2dup 2dup 2dup 2dup 2dup 2dup 2dup 2dup 2dup 20 pubkey dup 2dup 2dup 2dup 2dup 2dup 2dup 2dup 2dup 2dup 20 CHECKMULTISIG. | 15:38 |
| @gmaxwell | aj: the witness is not hashes by sighash. | 15:39 |
| @gmaxwell | And you could already hit sighash limited hash volume in a 1MB block. | 15:39 |
| -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kdvslfkupqteslhq] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:41 | |
| aj | gmaxwell: so worst case stays the same at just under 20GB, assuming sigop limit stays at 20k? | 15:41 |
| @gmaxwell | aj: and assuming the sigops counting applied to segwit transactions, indeed. | 15:43 |
| aj | gmaxwell: the 2.4G/9.3G limit is hittable with miners just not being careful when cleaning dust, rather than actively trying to exploit things though | 15:43 |
| -!- jcorgan is now known as jcorgan|away | 15:46 | |
| @gmaxwell | well it's worse because sigops aren't actually limited correctly in normal non-p2sh transactions. | 15:46 |
| @gmaxwell | They're counted in txouts but not scriptsigs. | 15:46 |
| aj | gmaxwell: i kind of want to say "maybe it'd make sense to just count how many bytes get hashed and add yet another independent constraint for the optimiser to worry about" :( | 15:47 |
| -!- Casper- [~Casper@garza.riseup.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:48 | |
| @gmaxwell | aj: well for fancy script in general there should be a proper cost model. | 15:49 |
| @gmaxwell | where execution of an operation that hashes the whole transaction implies a greater cost than a OP_ADD. | 15:49 |
| aj | gmaxwell: i wonder if it'd be reasonable to have such a model f(bytes_hashed, number_ecc_ops, size_of_tx, ...) and just have regular hard forks once every few years to change both the coefficients and overall limit based on technology changes | 15:53 |
| -!- meZee [~meZee@unaffiliated/swedftp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:57 | |
| @gmaxwell | aj: a concept I'd expressed (to maaku, if not in here) before was that you could have a multidimensional cost matrix and a procedure for updating it; and hard fork every few years to update it. One could, in fact, make it so that it did not require a hard fork, but a soft-fork instead. | 15:57 |
| @gmaxwell | You make the old limit matrix height limited, and the old limits go to infinity, with the new matrix soft-forked in below them. | 15:58 |
| @gmaxwell | OTOH, it is important when someone give you a transaction that you know it's cost before evauating it; and having to pass a vector cost would be kind of lame. | 15:59 |
| @gmaxwell | I think in general cost weights hardly matter. If they're within a couple orders of magnitude they align incentives the right way. | 15:59 |
| aj | gmaxwell: why would you pass a vector cost? you'd either calculate it from scratch, or just pass the pre-calculated value x=f(....)? | 16:00 |
| @gmaxwell | aj: if the precalculated value is normative and inside the transaction, then the change would be a hardfork that killed all in-flight transactions. | 16:01 |
| @gmaxwell | You can think of it in terms of the "regret" you would have from an inaccurate cost model that lets someone pay a much lower price for abuse... which effectively means that for a cost bound attacker you need some factor safty margin for mispricing. | 16:01 |
| -!- dEBRUYNE_ [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 16:01 | |
| -!- c0rw1n is now known as c0rw|zZz | 16:01 | |
| @gmaxwell | Turns out that you can be pretty far off on your metrics and not end up with crazy required safty margins. | 16:02 |
| aj | gmaxwell: you'd need to reorder all the transactions anyway when the change hit | 16:02 |
| @gmaxwell | aj: yea, but that doesn't synchronize every user of the bitcoin system. | 16:02 |
| -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 16:02 | |
| @gmaxwell | having to resign transactions, which might require manual intervention.. much bigger step. | 16:03 |
| -!- bliljerk101 [~bliljerk1@c-71-60-0-241.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 16:04 | |
| aj | gmaxwell: oh, i was thinking x=f() would just be attached to the txn loosely, not signed | 16:05 |
| aj | gmaxwell: (and validated as part of running the script, or otherwise validating the txn) | 16:05 |
| -!- Newyorkadam [~Newyorkad@wikipedia/Newyorkadam] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:06 | |
| @gmaxwell | yea, part of the relay scheme? I think in the past we'd assumed the cost would be in the transaction; but now that we discuss it I don't recall if there was a good reason for that. Well so, fraud proofs require a MST for each globally limited constraint, but that doesn't mean thet they need to be part of the transaction either. | 16:06 |
| @gmaxwell | aj: what you do with them is run with them, bound the execution cost of the transaction with them, if violated you ban the peer. | 16:07 |
| -!- bliljerk101 [~bliljerk1@c-71-60-0-241.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:09 | |
| -!- c0rw|zZz_ [~c0rw1n@151.177-243-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:10 | |
| aj | gmaxwell: right, so you'd need a vector MST commitment for the constraints as part of the block; i guess you could extend the vector to add new constraints as a soft fork though | 16:11 |
| @gmaxwell | aj: yea, actually the mst style being talked about for segwit fraud proof was arbritarily extendable. | 16:12 |
| -!- c0rw|zZz [~c0rw1n@169.203-241-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 16:12 | |
| @gmaxwell | I posed a question to some people previously: do we ever care about a reduction operator other than sum? | 16:12 |
| -!- strider [~user@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:13 | |
| tromp__ | maybe min or max? | 16:13 |
| @gmaxwell | Thats also what I suggested as a plausable candidate. | 16:13 |
| tromp__ | or less likely, xor | 16:14 |
| @gmaxwell | e.g. any communitive two input combining function is a potentially logical thing.. but I can't come up with uses for things other than min/max and even those are a little tortured. | 16:14 |
| @gmaxwell | and min and max are the same function; just invert your values, so only one would be needed. | 16:14 |
| aj | gmaxwell: i think anything other than linear summation would make optimisation unnecessarily hard? | 16:15 |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 16:15 | |
| @gmaxwell | aj: multiple dimensions makes optimization unnecessarily hard. I expect they'd be reduced to a single cost at the end. | 16:15 |
| -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@msm760.powerhousemuseum.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:15 | |
| -!- zookolaptop [~user@n11211973234.netvigator.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:15 | |
| aj | gmaxwell: that's what i mean, linear sum lets you reduce multi-dimensions to a single cost easily | 16:16 |
| aj | gmaxwell: (and yeah, sure, even /that's/ still hard enough...) | 16:17 |
| @gmaxwell | aj: I mean you might rationally have a rule that says "no script execution in a block can use more than 12 MB ram" | 16:17 |
| @gmaxwell | But while saying the justification for max outloud I realize that a max actually doesn't really need a MST for a fraud proof. | 16:17 |
| aj | gmaxwell: or X elements of stack | 16:17 |
| @gmaxwell | Just show the naughty transaction directly. | 16:17 |
| -!- c0rw|zZz_ is now known as c0rw|zZz | 16:17 | |
| @gmaxwell | hurrah. I think max/min actually has no utility for fraud proofing a resource constraint. | 16:18 |
| @gmaxwell | because though max is a global constrant, profing you've exceeded a maximum has an O(1) proof. | 16:18 |
| @gmaxwell | (well log n, of course, but without any extra commitments) | 16:18 |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:22 | |
| -!- jannes [~jannes@092-111-146-044.static.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 16:23 | |
| -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@msm760.powerhousemuseum.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 16:23 | |
| -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@vpn-e.media.mit.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:23 | |
| aj | gmaxwell: does elements do any fancier costing, given it enables OP_CAT and OP_SUBSTR? i guess "blah" {DUP CAT} SHA256 could be worth accounting | 16:25 |
| @gmaxwell | aj: No, because CAT can only produce an object no larger than you could have just pushed in. | 16:25 |
| @gmaxwell | (Cat has to be limited or you easily get effectively unbounded memory use) | 16:26 |
| @gmaxwell | We did some benchmarking with a thought of also increasing the operations limit; and concluded that it wasn't obviously safe to do so, so we didn't... but it deserved more exploration. | 16:26 |
| -!- jannes [~jannes@092-111-146-044.static.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:27 | |
| @gmaxwell | Basically we used AFL to try to find the slowest scripts to execute, and I think our results were goofed. Also: malloc sucks. | 16:27 |
| aj | gmaxwell: "AFL" ? | 16:29 |
| @gmaxwell | American fuzzy lop; a fast instrumentation based whitebox fuzzer. | 16:29 |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 16:31 | |
| -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@vpn-e.media.mit.edu] has quit [Quit: GGuyZ] | 16:35 | |
| -!- Sleepnbum [Sleepnbum@static-72-67-47-196.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 16:37 | |
| -!- Newyorkadam [~Newyorkad@wikipedia/Newyorkadam] has quit [Quit: Newyorkadam] | 16:40 | |
| -!- Newyorkadam [~Newyorkad@wikipedia/Newyorkadam] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:41 | |
| -!- Yoghur114_2 [~jorn@g227014.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 16:42 | |
| -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:43 | |
| -!- joecool [~joecool@no-sources/joecool] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 16:49 | |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:51 | |
| -!- CubicEar_ [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:52 | |
| -!- dabura667 [uid43070@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pmpgjyjicyvwrlgk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:53 | |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 16:56 | |
| -!- saibog38 [60268e75@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.38.142.117] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:01 | |
| -!- jcorgan|away is now known as jcorgan | 17:03 | |
| -!- jannes [~jannes@092-111-146-044.static.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 17:17 | |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 17:19 | |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:22 | |
| -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@msm760.powerhousemuseum.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:24 | |
| -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@msm760.powerhousemuseum.com] has quit [Client Quit] | 17:28 | |
| -!- ebfull [~sean@73.34.119.0] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:28 | |
| -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@msm760.powerhousemuseum.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:29 | |
| -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@msm760.powerhousemuseum.com] has quit [Client Quit] | 17:30 | |
| -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-55-151-128.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:38 | |
| -!- tripleslash_a [~triplesla@unaffiliated/imsaguy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 17:53 | |
| -!- kumavis [sid13576@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pnbijhxgrwgwqipi] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 17:54 | |
| -!- jbenet [sid17552@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-srwimvfvffrohwab] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 17:54 | |
| -!- tripleslash [~triplesla@unaffiliated/imsaguy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:55 | |
| -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kdvslfkupqteslhq] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 17:56 | |
| -!- kumavis [sid13576@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fgzazvihftvgfmzm] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:56 | |
| -!- jbenet [sid17552@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gmzekteekksfiivd] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:57 | |
| -!- kelly [86868b4d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.134.134.139.77] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] | 17:58 | |
| -!- matsjj [~matsjj@89.197.31.78] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:00 | |
| -!- licnep [uid4387@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ezcxqscbqsxsghni] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:02 | |
| -!- bendavenport [~bpd@96.90.231.161] has quit [Quit: bendavenport] | 18:07 | |
| -!- zookolaptop [~user@n11211973234.netvigator.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 18:16 | |
| -!- TBI_ [~TBI@84.48.195.20] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:17 | |
| -!- matsjj [~matsjj@89.197.31.78] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 18:19 | |
| -!- TBI [~TBI@84.48.195.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 18:19 | |
| -!- gielbier [~giel____@unaffiliated/gielbier] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 18:19 | |
| -!- liteIRC_ [~zooko@172.56.13.26] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:19 | |
| -!- zooko [~zooko@n11211973234.netvigator.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 18:21 | |
| -!- liteIRC_ is now known as zooko | 18:21 | |
| -!- saibog38 [60268e75@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.38.142.117] has quit [Quit: Page closed] | 18:22 | |
| -!- gobias_industrie [60268e75@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.38.142.117] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:22 | |
| maaku | petertodd: I do not believe anyone has observed that you can get sharding via linearized coin histories, that is novel. you also need a relaxation of validation conditions, which I believe is also novel | 18:23 |
| maaku | but yes mizrahi's approach to coin coloring is to establish a linearized coin history, in order to keep the colored coin proof small | 18:24 |
| -!- gobias_industrie is now known as gobiasindustries | 18:24 | |
| maaku | kanzure: stateless mining / stateless validation is the term I've been using | 18:24 |
| maaku | gmaxwell: the 20k sigop limit is for outputs, not the sigops actually executed by the block.. | 18:25 |
| -!- liteIRC_ [~zooko@223.197.144.64] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:26 | |
| -!- strider [~user@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 18:26 | |
| @gmaxwell | maaku: no, for P2SH it is counted correctly. | 18:28 |
| @gmaxwell | I explained this above. | 18:28 |
| maaku | right but a block isn't limited to p2sh spends... | 18:28 |
| @gmaxwell | Right but seg wit area is limited to segwit spends. | 18:28 |
| -!- spinza [~spin@197.89.10.241] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 18:29 | |
| -!- zooko [~zooko@172.56.13.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 18:29 | |
| -!- liteIRC_ is now known as zooko | 18:29 | |
| -!- hackerman [~hackerman@ip5b401d10.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 18:30 | |
| gobiasindustries | I'm wondering why there appears to be one bitcoin rich entity arguing with itself on bitcoinocracy.com | 18:30 |
| -!- tachys_ [~alex@96.90.231.161] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 18:30 | |
| @gmaxwell | gobiasindustries: whats the 'arguing with itself' refer to? | 18:30 |
| -!- tachys_ [~alex@96.90.231.161] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:31 | |
| -!- wizkid057 [wk@unaffiliated/wizkid057] has quit [Quit: brb] | 18:31 | |
| gobiasindustries | there's a bunch of 500.00051 addresses voting on both sides, they were all funded around the same time in the same increments so I'm guessing it's the same person/entity/whatever | 18:32 |
| -!- wizkid057 [wk@unaffiliated/wizkid057] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:32 | |
| @gmaxwell | well the 0.0051 is dust that people were spamming to large outputs. | 18:33 |
| gobiasindustries | ok, that makes more sense then. | 18:33 |
| -!- liteIRC_ [~zooko@172.56.13.26] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:33 | |
| @gmaxwell | gobiasindustries: Though one of the bitcoinXT trolls was hammering me in PM to "commit to making this binding"; might have been playing the other side to convince me to agree to something outright dumb (and beyond my power in any case) because I thought I would "win". | 18:33 |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:34 | |
| -!- zooko [~zooko@223.197.144.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 18:37 | |
| -!- liteIRC_ is now known as zooko | 18:37 | |
| -!- CubicEar_ [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 18:38 | |
| -!- matsjj [~matsjj@213.205.251.158] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:43 | |
| -!- zwick [~zwick@fsf/member/zwick] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1] | 18:47 | |
| -!- spinza [~spin@197.89.10.241] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:52 | |
| -!- go1111111 [~go1111111@2604:4080:1128:0:a5b6:d9df:a37e:844b] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 18:57 | |
| -!- matsjj [~matsjj@213.205.251.158] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 19:01 | |
| petertodd | maaku: thanks, I sent alex an email to clarify; I'll post to bitcoin-dev to correct that if that's the case | 19:02 |
| petertodd | maaku: hopefully he didn't already tell me the linearization thing - that'd be kinda embarassing :) | 19:03 |
| -!- tachys_ [~alex@96.90.231.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 19:06 | |
| -!- mrkent_ [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has quit [] | 19:07 | |
| kanzure | "i have no idea what a whuffie is" -- maaku | 19:08 |
| @gmaxwell | fortunate person. | 19:08 |
| @gmaxwell | Thats a terrible story. | 19:08 |
| @gmaxwell | :) | 19:08 |
| * gmaxwell sends a bunch of anti-left-spin-counterclockwise whuffie in some random direction | 19:08 | |
| kanzure | was doctorow the actual origin of whuffie stuff? | 19:09 |
| -!- Sleepnbum [~Sleepnbum@pool-71-103-142-251.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:10 | |
| -!- Sleepnbum is now known as Guest63220 | 19:11 | |
| -!- liteIRC_ [~zooko@202.155.216.67] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:11 | |
| @gmaxwell | kanzure: the idea has existed elsewhere of course; but I'm pretty sure that name comes from DaOitMK | 19:11 |
| kanzure | i was looking at my irc logs from january 2009 http://gnusha.org/logs/2009-01-10.log http://gnusha.org/logs/2009-01-11.log and around the time that bitcoin.org popped up, there was also bitchun.org | 19:11 |
| kanzure | and bitchun.org was the whuffie stuff | 19:12 |
| @gmaxwell | (to be fair, I don't really think the story is terrible; it's not great and it's over hyped) | 19:12 |
| -!- go1111111 [~go1111111@104.232.116.217] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:13 | |
| kanzure | was there ever a whuffie implementation of any kind? | 19:13 |
| @gmaxwell | 'reddit' ? | 19:14 |
| kanzure | oh :-/ | 19:14 |
| -!- zooko [~zooko@172.56.13.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 19:14 | |
| -!- liteIRC_ is now known as zooko | 19:14 | |
| -!- GfxdjGFhgF [~KHDXGFHGh@5-12-155-237.residential.rdsnet.ro] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:20 | |
| -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@59-100-109-145.cust.static-ipl.aapt.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:21 | |
| tulip | gobiasindustries: if you have any value of privacy you should stay far away, especially given that voting with proof of stake like that is mostly meaningless anyway. | 19:21 |
| -!- liteIRC_ [~zooko@172.56.6.160] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:22 | |
| -!- zooko [~zooko@202.155.216.67] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 19:22 | |
| -!- liteIRC_ is now known as zooko | 19:22 | |
| jcorgan | afraid now to say anything around kanzure because his records are more detailed than the NSA's | 19:23 |
| -!- liteIRC_ [~zooko@202.155.216.65] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:23 | |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 19:23 | |
| kanzure | yeah i'm surprised more people haven't talked with me about that or tried to convince me against not doing that | 19:24 |
| kanzure | probably a selection effect of some kind :-/ | 19:24 |
| CubicEarth | I liked Gavin's suggestion we call "Segregated Witness" by another name. How about "Split Witness" or "Separate Witness" | 19:24 |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:24 | |
| jcorgan | is it a term of art? | 19:25 |
| jcorgan | (well known, specific meaning within a field or community) | 19:25 |
| -!- liteIRC__ [~zooko@172.56.6.160] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:26 | |
| -!- zooko [~zooko@172.56.6.160] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 19:26 | |
| -!- liteIRC__ is now known as zooko | 19:26 | |
| CubicEarth | jcorgan: Segregated Witness? | 19:26 |
| -!- liteIRC__ [~zooko@202.155.216.65] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:27 | |
| -!- liteIRC_ [~zooko@202.155.216.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 19:27 | |
| jcorgan | yes. i thought it was a well-defined cryptographic term, could be wrong | 19:27 |
| jcorgan | if so, would rather keep it as-is | 19:27 |
| aj | witness is, segregated is just for bitcoin afaik | 19:28 |
| -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-139-55-215-201.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 19:28 | |
| jcorgan | ah, ok | 19:28 |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 19:28 | |
| jcorgan | detached witness? (like pgp detached signature) | 19:28 |
| -!- tromp [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:28 | |
| CubicEarth | Maybe, I'm unfamiliar if it is. I do know in American English, 'Segregation' is commonly used to refer to a long period of institutionalized racial discrimination. | 19:29 |
| @gmaxwell | it's not actually detatched in most cases. | 19:29 |
| jcorgan | CubicEarth: i think context makes that connotaton unlikely | 19:29 |
| kanzure | words cannot be tainted by racism | 19:30 |
| CubicEarth | jcorgan: you might be right, but what do we have invested in the term "segregated". Wouldn't "Sepratate" or "Split" be just as good in this case? | 19:30 |
| moa | segregate verb set apart from the rest or from each other; isolate or divide. | 19:30 |
| kanzure | i suggest we kickban before this gets out of hand | 19:31 |
| jcorgan | really don't want to bikeshed on this | 19:31 |
| -!- zooko [~zooko@172.56.6.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 19:31 | |
| -!- liteIRC__ is now known as zooko | 19:31 | |
| aj | ("remote witness" is actual legal terminology in .au apparently) | 19:35 |
| aj | ooo, ooo! "distinguished witness" | 19:36 |
| jcorgan | not that i have any say, but i'm perfectly happy with segregated witness | 19:36 |
| kanzure | this is off-topic | 19:36 |
| CubicEarth | kanzure: where should it be discussed? | 19:37 |
| -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:37 | |
| amiller | only two hard problems in computer science, cash invalidation and naming things | 19:37 |
| CubicEarth | amiller: +1 | 19:37 |
| kanzure | i wonder if it would be possible for a deployed lightning network to be in the state such that broad amounts of money routing make it cheaper for people to earn money providing money in their channels (as negative fees) rather than actually purchasing coffee. | 19:39 |
| kanzure | or er, for the money they would earn to be more valuable than the coffee they would have had if they didn't provide their BTC as negative fee. | 19:39 |
| CubicEarth | I don't really care much myself. But, Bitcoin doesn't have a PR department, we'd probably be better off if we did, but we don't, so sometimes we may just have to consider how thing might appear to others on our own. | 19:40 |
| @gmaxwell | If anyone but bitcoin developers and people spectating development see the term something has gone wrong. | 19:42 |
| -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-55-151-128.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 19:45 | |
| aj | amiller: "cash invalidation" eh... | 19:46 |
| -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@59-100-109-145.cust.static-ipl.aapt.com.au] has quit [Quit: GGuyZ] | 19:46 | |
| amiller | you know, like preventing double-spends | 19:46 |
| jcorgan | *groan* | 19:47 |
| oldbrew | yea not enough beer | 19:47 |
| phantomcircuit | amiller, (and off by one errors) | 19:47 |
| @gmaxwell | In any case, I don't care though segregated is a common term in several domains, including finance and law. (E.g. maintaining segregated client funds) | 19:48 |
| -!- nubbins` [~leel@unaffiliated/nubbins] has quit [Quit: Quit] | 19:48 | |
| aj | amiller: hmm, i heard my cpu had multiple megabits of cash, but 1 megabit is 1BTC right? there must be some way to monetise this | 19:48 |
| aj | anyone know what the deal with segwit and p2pkh is? do we just end up with 32B addresses for everything? | 19:50 |
| rusty | aj: naah, IIUC there's a type byte so you can put script in directly for compact scripts like that | 19:51 |
| aj | rusty: oh, i thought type byte was just "1" for the first version | 19:51 |
| oldbrew | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_chip | 19:53 |
| oldbrew | sounds like history repeating it's self | 19:54 |
| -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@108.74.246.84] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:55 | |
| -!- tachys_ [~alex@c-73-231-188-118.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:57 | |
| -!- Newyorkadam [~Newyorkad@wikipedia/Newyorkadam] has quit [Quit: Newyorkadam] | 20:00 | |
| -!- tachys_ [~alex@c-73-231-188-118.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 20:02 | |
| -!- nuke1989 [~nuke@178-157-152.dynamic.cyta.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 20:02 | |
| -!- Guest63220 [~Sleepnbum@pool-71-103-142-251.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] | 20:08 | |
| -!- el33th4x0r [68e5aa14@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.104.229.170.20] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:09 | |
| -!- liteIRC_ [~zooko@202.155.216.67] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:09 | |
| -!- zooko [~zooko@202.155.216.65] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 20:09 | |
| -!- liteIRC_ is now known as zooko | 20:09 | |
| -!- dabura667 [uid43070@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pmpgjyjicyvwrlgk] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] | 20:11 | |
| -!- p15x [~p15x@95.91.145.64.client.static.strong-tk2.bringover.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:11 | |
| -!- Newyorkadam [~Newyorkad@wikipedia/Newyorkadam] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:11 | |
| -!- Newyorkadam [~Newyorkad@wikipedia/Newyorkadam] has quit [Client Quit] | 20:11 | |
| -!- liteIRC_ [~zooko@172.56.7.158] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:12 | |
| -!- zooko [~zooko@202.155.216.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 20:16 | |
| -!- liteIRC_ is now known as zooko | 20:16 | |
| -!- alex_leishman [800cf50a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.128.12.245.10] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:22 | |
| -!- sparetire_ [~sparetire@unaffiliated/sparetire] has quit [Quit: sparetire_] | 20:24 | |
| -!- p15x [~p15x@95.91.145.64.client.static.strong-tk2.bringover.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 20:34 | |
| -!- zooko [~zooko@172.56.7.158] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 20:35 | |
| -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@108.74.246.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 20:36 | |
| -!- c-cex-yuriy [uid76808@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vwqezstmrondnbsc] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] | 20:41 | |
| -!- licnep [uid4387@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ezcxqscbqsxsghni] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] | 20:45 | |
| -!- p15x [~p15x@96.91.145.64.client.static.strong-tk2.bringover.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:50 | |
| -!- DigiDreamer [~DigiDream@238-124-200-46.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:52 | |
| -!- tromp [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 20:52 | |
| -!- tromp [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:53 | |
| -!- zooko [~zooko@172.56.7.158] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:53 | |
| -!- GfxdjGFhgF [~KHDXGFHGh@5-12-155-237.residential.rdsnet.ro] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 21:01 | |
| -!- tromp [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 21:03 | |
| -!- archobserver [~archobser@unaffiliated/superobserver] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 21:19 | |
| -!- tromp [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:31 | |
| -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 21:33 | |
| -!- tromp [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 21:35 | |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:37 | |
| -!- bendavenport [~bpd@c-50-131-42-132.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:38 | |
| -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@wtstnt07b195.netvigator.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:39 | |
| -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@wtstnt07b195.netvigator.com] has quit [Changing host] | 21:39 | |
| -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:39 | |
| -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@59-100-109-145.cust.static-ipl.aapt.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:42 | |
| -!- DigiDreamer [~DigiDream@238-124-200-46.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 21:43 | |
| -!- DigiDreamer [~DigiDream@238-124-200-46.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:44 | |
| -!- p15x [~p15x@96.91.145.64.client.static.strong-tk2.bringover.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 21:47 | |
| -!- bit2017 [~linker@115.79.55.177] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:49 | |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 22:00 | |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:00 | |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 22:03 | |
| -!- zooko [~zooko@172.56.7.158] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 22:03 | |
| -!- CubicEar_ [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:03 | |
| -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 22:13 | |
| -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@tswc3205.netvigator.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:13 | |
| -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@tswc3205.netvigator.com] has quit [Changing host] | 22:13 | |
| -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:13 | |
| alex_leishman | i would like to discuss an updated signature scheme for bitcoin that has the potential to effectively remove most signature data from a block. | 22:17 |
| alex_leishman | are any of the "wizards" online? | 22:17 |
| phantomcircuit | alex_leishman, the standard for irc is to state your question (or statement) not to ask whether people are available to discuss the question | 22:21 |
| alex_leishman | oh ok. sorry. new to this | 22:23 |
| phantomcircuit | alex_leishman, it's kind of like writing your question on a chalkboard and then coming back in an hour :) | 22:25 |
| alex_leishman | Got it! Let me compose my question. I'll post soon | 22:25 |
| -!- p15 [~p15@117.91.145.64.client.static.strong-tk2.bringover.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:26 | |
| sipa | i've been working on schnorr signatures, and combining them with a merkle tree of combinations, which can efficiently encode any and/or combinations of required signatures over public keus | 22:27 |
| alex_leishman | have you considered BLS signatures? | 22:27 |
| sipa | if you're interested, look up "key tree signatures" | 22:27 |
| sipa | BLS signatures are pretty inefficient to verify | 22:27 |
| @gmaxwell | alex_leishman: they're not batch verifyable in a context which is interesting to us. And pairing is very slow. (also putting aside the new security assumptions for a bit) | 22:27 |
| @gmaxwell | alex_leishman: (BLS signatures are batchable if they all sign the same message or all are the same key) | 22:28 |
| alex_leishman | Actually, I do not think this is the case | 22:28 |
| -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 22:28 | |
| -!- bit2017 [~linker@115.79.55.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 22:28 | |
| alex_leishman | I was speaking with Dan Boneh about this yesterday | 22:28 |
| alex_leishman | this is his idea, not mine | 22:28 |
| @gmaxwell | alex_leishman: Boneh agreed with me that it was not so many weeks ago; so perhaps he's run into something new. | 22:29 |
| alex_leishman | i'm simply working on figuring out the details | 22:29 |
| alex_leishman | hmmm. | 22:29 |
| alex_leishman | perhaps there is a miscommunication | 22:29 |
| alex_leishman | from my understanding, all input signatures in a block can be verified as a batch | 22:29 |
| alex_leishman | so a block may only need to include one aggregate signature | 22:30 |
| sipa | that would be pretty awesome | 22:31 |
| @gmaxwell | Yes, one can aggregate signatures, I've implemented this-- but it is one pairing operation per signature. | 22:31 |
| alex_leishman | anyone can verify this single signature if they know all of the public keys associated with the signatures in the group used to make the aggregate signature, i.e. the input public keys | 22:31 |
| @gmaxwell | which is fantastically slower than today. | 22:31 |
| alex_leishman | how much slower do you think it is? | 22:31 |
| alex_leishman | Dan said it was ~20% | 22:31 |
| alex_leishman | that was my understanding | 22:31 |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:32 | |
| @gmaxwell | oh dear no, state of the art pairing implementats right now are in the ballpart of 0.5 ms on hardware where our ecdsa verify is 70 microseconds. | 22:32 |
| -!- tromp [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:32 | |
| @gmaxwell | (and maybe twice that speed for batch schnorr verification) | 22:32 |
| -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@59-100-109-145.cust.static-ipl.aapt.com.au] has quit [Quit: GGuyZ] | 22:33 | |
| alex_leishman | interesting. so the big deal here is the pairing function speed? | 22:33 |
| alex_leishman | you're saying it's too slow? | 22:33 |
| -!- bit2017 [~linker@115.79.55.177] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:34 | |
| -!- CubicEar_ [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 22:35 | |
| @gmaxwell | in any case the verification equation for the aggregate signature is just pairing(m1,px1)*pairing(m2,px2)*pairing(m3,px3) == pairing(ag,g); and the aggregate is the product of the regular BLS signatures, (to_point(message)^secret). | 22:35 |
| @gmaxwell | So thats one pairing per signature plus one. | 22:35 |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:35 | |
| alex_leishman | yes | 22:36 |
| @gmaxwell | alex_leishman: right, it wouldn't be an improvement for most bandwidth/cpu limits; at the tip of the chain our performance is already not far from cpu limited. (it's annoying, there are different limits in different places... long time storage of signatures is a non-issue because of pruning) | 22:37 |
| -!- tromp [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 22:37 | |
| alex_leishman | ok, so basically the CPU cost outweighs the bandwidth savings? | 22:37 |
| alex_leishman | let's set the pairing function speed aside | 22:37 |
| alex_leishman | what then? | 22:38 |
| @gmaxwell | 0.5ms per signature times transaction size implies a speed of under 2mbit/sec. (so say that per core.) | 22:38 |
| alex_leishman | i'm sorry. what is that message in reference to? | 22:40 |
| @gmaxwell | Then it would be a new security assumption; (discrete log security in the BLS group) Though this doesn't bother me that much if its optional. | 22:40 |
| alex_leishman | yes | 22:40 |
| @gmaxwell | alex_leishman: It was a translation of my example pairing speed into how small amount of bandwidth you'd need before cpu becomes the bottleneck. | 22:40 |
| alex_leishman | oh ok | 22:41 |
| alex_leishman | this scheme would effectively remove all signature data from a block | 22:41 |
| alex_leishman | what's your gut opinion? Is this idea worth formalizing and exploring further? | 22:42 |
| @gmaxwell | Yes, I know, I've actually _implemented_ it (for privacy reasons). | 22:42 |
| alex_leishman | oh ok | 22:42 |
| @gmaxwell | This kind of aggregation can be turned into a powerful privacy scheme. But it is pretty slow. | 22:43 |
| @gmaxwell | In bitcoin storage is not a concern. | 22:43 |
| alex_leishman | but what about block propagation speed? | 22:43 |
| alex_leishman | network latency for miners. isn't that their concern? | 22:44 |
| alex_leishman | i understand validation slows propagation as well | 22:44 |
| @gmaxwell | Would be slower with this (roughtly) if your connectivity is over a couple mbit/sec. | 22:44 |
| alex_leishman | but that aside | 22:44 |
| alex_leishman | yeah | 22:44 |
| alex_leishman | i'll talk to dan about pairing speed | 22:45 |
| alex_leishman | seems like that's the real issue here | 22:45 |
| @gmaxwell | If we were limited to a super naieve implementation of ECC in a poorly selected group or something the difference wouldn't be so huge. | 22:45 |
| @gmaxwell | alex_leishman: FWIW this is the fastest pairing implementation I've seen code for: https://github.com/herumi/ate-pairing | 22:49 |
| @gmaxwell | (and it's sort of a not fun to integrate code base with runtime dynamic code generation and other hacks) | 22:50 |
| @gmaxwell | on their reference 2.4GHz haswell it takes 488 microseconds. | 22:51 |
| alex_leishman | interesting. I will do some more research on this | 22:52 |
| -!- oldbrew [brew@24-212-254-57.cable.teksavvy.com] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] | 22:52 | |
| -!- nivah [~linker@115.79.55.177] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:52 | |
| alex_leishman | there might be some cleverness that can be performed that we haven't thought of | 22:53 |
| @gmaxwell | alex_leishman: one sec and I'll give you the anonymous paper that was written on the privacy application | 22:53 |
| alex_leishman | thanks! | 22:54 |
| -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lzdqldanpfalfyju] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:54 | |
| @gmaxwell | https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/wizardry/horasyuanmouton-owas.pdf | 22:54 |
| alex_leishman | @gmaxwell thanks for the feedback. I will dig deeper and come back with any new ideas | 22:55 |
| @gmaxwell | alex_leishman: There may be.... there are things I know of that aren't applicable, e.g. you can precompute the pubkey pairings, but our keys are single use. It might be cheaper to verify a pairing instead of just compute one; but the transfer group elements are huge and would offset the savings. | 22:55 |
| -!- bit2017 [~linker@115.79.55.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 22:55 | |
| @gmaxwell | alex_leishman: feel free to come back with any-- I'm very interested. | 22:55 |
| alex_leishman | I will. Ok glad to hear you think it's worthwhile to pursue digging deeper. | 22:56 |
| -!- bit2017 [~linker@115.79.55.177] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:57 | |
| alex_leishman | We actually met a few weeks ago when you were at Stanford. I'm the TA for Dan's class | 22:57 |
| alex_leishman | one of the TAs | 22:57 |
| sipa | alex_leishman: oh, hi, i was there too (i'm pieter wuille) | 22:58 |
| alex_leishman | yeah! hey peter. It was nice meeting you as well | 22:58 |
| -!- nivah [~linker@115.79.55.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 22:58 | |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 23:06 | |
| @gmaxwell | alex_leishman: there are other tricks I know that also can't be applied here. E.g. if one of the arguments to the pairing is fixed, you can precompute and speed it up a fair bit. | 23:09 |
| alex_leishman | hmm. interesting. I was thinking about precomputing as much as possible | 23:10 |
| -!- tripleslash [~triplesla@unaffiliated/imsaguy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 23:10 | |
| -!- tripleslash_j [~triplesla@unaffiliated/imsaguy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:10 | |
| -!- bendavenport [~bpd@c-50-131-42-132.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bendavenport] | 23:13 | |
| -!- LeMiner2 [LeMiner@5ED1AFBF.cm-7-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:20 | |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 23:20 | |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:20 | |
| -!- LeMiner [LeMiner@unaffiliated/leminer] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 23:21 | |
| -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 23:28 | |
| -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:306:b8e0:8160:688b:d62d:40e3:5d5d] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:29 | |
| -!- markus-k [~markus-k@designnet.work.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:29 | |
| -!- alex_leishman [800cf50a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.128.12.245.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] | 23:32 | |
| -!- p15 [~p15@117.91.145.64.client.static.strong-tk2.bringover.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 23:32 | |
| -!- p15 [~p15@98.91.145.64.client.static.strong-tk2.bringover.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:33 | |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 23:33 | |
| -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@70-36-136-123.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:49 | |
| -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:51 | |
| -!- p15 [~p15@98.91.145.64.client.static.strong-tk2.bringover.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 23:57 | |
| -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:58 | |
| --- Log closed Thu Dec 10 00:00:32 2015 | ||
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.15.0.dev0 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!