2015-12-09.log

--- Log opened Wed Dec 09 00:00:32 2015
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bramcWhen people on twitter act like they know what they're talking about and say things like we're way below monopoly blocksize it makes me despair for the future.00:10
fluffyponybramc: that's not solely a Twitter problem, that's a just-enough-knowledge-to-be-dangerous problem00:11
fluffyponyit's frightening how many people tackle system design that is well outside of their realm of expertise, and then ignore input from those they should consider peers (writing it off as FUD or jealousy or something equally nonsensical)00:12
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bramcfluffypony, I understand people not understanding macroeconomics. I can even understand people not understanding that macroeconomics doesn't apply to Bitcoin. But not understanding microeconomics? In simple scenarios which can be fully worked out on paper in just a few minutes?00:15
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zookobramc: do you mean me?00:15
bramczooko, You weren't the worst offender00:16
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instagibbsre:price and vulnerabilities, people commonly claim that if 0-conf is further eroded(?) that the utility/price of Bitcoin will drop. Of course there have been tons of 0-conf double-spends, with seemingly no effect on price.06:33
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dgenr8ironically, the most predictable effect of continued small blocks combined with increased acceptance of the currency will be a massive increase in hosted wallets06:51
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pigeonssupporting a price based on something that doesnt work the way you say is pretty shady06:52
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coinoperated_tvis there a list of known events that did correlate to price changes tracked somewhere?07:06
pigeonsoff topic, but its the same issue on all markets, like the financial news, that is just speculation07:06
coinoperated_tvnot interested in price per se, but the kind of events that do move it, and how far.  what signal strength does it take to generate a ripple in the medium.07:08
pigeonsthat isnt something you can ever know07:08
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coinoperated_tvdepends on how quickly exchanges report, no?   Looking at exchanges like seismographic stations07:10
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bramcTransaction fees are currently de minimis, so not much conclusions can be drawn from their past movements.09:41
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petertoddmaaku: oh, did alex mizrahi come up with linearized coin history? I should figure this out before I take the credit...15:09
kanzurewhile you are at it, can you give a good name to "wallets are responsible for keeping their utxos and evidence" schemes?15:10
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@gmaxwell"The STXO zero stroage infinity bandwidth mode."15:10
kanzureso be it15:10
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ajgmaxwell: did i get my maths roughly right in figuring segwit lets a miner easily force hashing ~9GB to validate a block versus only about 2.4GB presently? (and if so, does that seem like a problem? my laptop takes ~15s for 2.4GB and 55s for 9.3GB, and 2m for 19.9GB for just straight sha256 of /dev/zero so it seems like it might be)15:25
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@gmaxwellaj: if you're speaking in terms of accurately accounted sigops, in either case the limit is 20,000 per block. Which you can hit now with duplication at a marginal cost of about a byte per sigop15:35
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@gmaxwellaj: e.g. dup 2dup 2dup 2dup 2dup 2dup 2dup 2dup 2dup 2dup 20 pubkey dup 2dup 2dup 2dup 2dup 2dup 2dup 2dup 2dup 2dup 20 CHECKMULTISIG.15:38
@gmaxwellaj: the witness is not hashes by sighash.15:39
@gmaxwellAnd you could already hit sighash limited hash volume in a 1MB block.15:39
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ajgmaxwell: so worst case stays the same at just under 20GB, assuming sigop limit stays at 20k?15:41
@gmaxwellaj: and assuming the sigops counting applied to segwit transactions, indeed.15:43
ajgmaxwell: the 2.4G/9.3G limit is hittable with miners just not being careful when cleaning dust, rather than actively trying to exploit things though15:43
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@gmaxwellwell it's worse because sigops aren't actually limited correctly in normal non-p2sh transactions.15:46
@gmaxwellThey're counted in txouts but not scriptsigs.15:46
ajgmaxwell: i kind of want to say "maybe it'd make sense to just count how many bytes get hashed and add yet another independent constraint for the optimiser to worry about" :(15:47
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@gmaxwellaj: well for fancy script in general there should be a proper cost model.15:49
@gmaxwellwhere execution of an operation that hashes the whole transaction implies a greater cost than a OP_ADD.15:49
ajgmaxwell: i wonder if it'd be reasonable to have such a model f(bytes_hashed, number_ecc_ops, size_of_tx, ...) and just have regular hard forks once every few years to change both the coefficients and overall limit based on technology changes15:53
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@gmaxwellaj: a concept I'd expressed (to maaku, if not in here) before was that you could have a multidimensional cost matrix and a procedure for updating it; and hard fork every few years to update it.  One could, in fact, make it so that it did not require a hard fork, but a soft-fork instead.15:57
@gmaxwellYou make the old limit matrix height limited, and the old limits go to infinity, with the new matrix soft-forked in below them.15:58
@gmaxwellOTOH, it is important when someone give you a transaction that you know it's cost before evauating it; and having to pass a vector cost would be kind of lame.15:59
@gmaxwellI think in general cost weights hardly matter. If they're within a couple orders of magnitude they align incentives the right way.15:59
ajgmaxwell: why would you pass a vector cost? you'd either calculate it from scratch, or just pass the pre-calculated value x=f(....)?16:00
@gmaxwellaj: if the precalculated value is normative and inside the transaction, then the change would be a hardfork that killed all in-flight transactions.16:01
@gmaxwellYou can think of it in terms of the "regret" you would have from an inaccurate cost model that lets someone pay a much lower price for abuse... which effectively means that for a cost bound attacker you need some factor safty margin for mispricing.16:01
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@gmaxwellTurns out that you can be pretty far off on your metrics and not end up with crazy required safty margins.16:02
ajgmaxwell: you'd need to reorder all the transactions anyway when the change hit16:02
@gmaxwellaj: yea, but that doesn't synchronize every user of the bitcoin system.16:02
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@gmaxwellhaving to resign transactions, which might require manual intervention.. much bigger step.16:03
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ajgmaxwell: oh, i was thinking x=f() would just be attached to the txn loosely, not signed16:05
ajgmaxwell: (and validated as part of running the script, or otherwise validating the txn)16:05
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@gmaxwellyea, part of the relay scheme?  I think in the past we'd assumed the cost would be in the transaction; but now that we discuss it I don't recall if there was a good reason for that.  Well so, fraud proofs require a MST for each globally limited constraint, but that doesn't mean thet they need to be part of the transaction either.16:06
@gmaxwellaj: what you do with them is run with them, bound the execution cost of the transaction with them, if violated you ban the peer.16:07
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ajgmaxwell: right, so you'd need a vector MST commitment for the constraints as part of the block; i guess you could extend the vector to add new constraints as a soft fork though16:11
@gmaxwellaj: yea, actually the mst style being talked about for segwit fraud proof was arbritarily extendable.16:12
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@gmaxwellI posed a question to some people previously: do we ever care about a reduction operator other than sum?16:12
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tromp__maybe min or max?16:13
@gmaxwellThats also what I suggested as a plausable candidate.16:13
tromp__or less likely, xor16:14
@gmaxwelle.g. any communitive two input combining function is a potentially logical thing.. but I can't come up with uses for things other than min/max and even those are a little tortured.16:14
@gmaxwelland min and max are the same function; just invert your values, so only one would be needed.16:14
ajgmaxwell: i think anything other than linear summation would make optimisation unnecessarily hard?16:15
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@gmaxwellaj: multiple dimensions makes optimization unnecessarily hard. I expect they'd be reduced to a single cost at the end.16:15
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ajgmaxwell: that's what i mean, linear sum lets you reduce multi-dimensions to a single cost easily16:16
ajgmaxwell: (and yeah, sure, even /that's/ still hard enough...)16:17
@gmaxwellaj: I mean you might rationally have a rule that says "no script execution in a block can use more than 12 MB ram"16:17
@gmaxwellBut while saying the justification for max outloud I realize that a max actually doesn't really need a MST for a fraud proof.16:17
ajgmaxwell: or X elements of stack16:17
@gmaxwellJust show the naughty transaction directly.16:17
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@gmaxwellhurrah. I think max/min actually has no utility for fraud proofing a resource constraint.16:18
@gmaxwellbecause though max is a global constrant, profing you've exceeded a maximum has an O(1) proof.16:18
@gmaxwell(well log n, of course, but without any extra commitments)16:18
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ajgmaxwell: does elements do any fancier costing, given it enables OP_CAT and OP_SUBSTR? i guess "blah" {DUP CAT} SHA256 could be worth accounting16:25
@gmaxwellaj: No, because CAT can only produce an object no larger than you could have just pushed in.16:25
@gmaxwell(Cat has to be limited or you easily get effectively unbounded memory use)16:26
@gmaxwellWe did some benchmarking with a thought of also increasing the operations limit; and concluded that it wasn't obviously safe to do so, so we didn't... but it deserved more exploration.16:26
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@gmaxwellBasically we used AFL to try to find the slowest scripts to execute, and I think our results were goofed. Also: malloc sucks.16:27
ajgmaxwell: "AFL" ?16:29
@gmaxwellAmerican fuzzy lop; a fast instrumentation based whitebox fuzzer.16:29
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maakupetertodd: I do not believe anyone has observed that you can get sharding via linearized coin histories, that is novel. you also need a relaxation of validation conditions, which I believe is also novel18:23
maakubut yes mizrahi's approach to coin coloring is to establish a linearized coin history, in order to keep the colored coin proof small18:24
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maakukanzure: stateless mining / stateless validation is the term I've been using18:24
maakugmaxwell: the 20k sigop limit is for outputs, not the sigops actually executed by the block..18:25
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@gmaxwellmaaku: no, for P2SH it is counted correctly.18:28
@gmaxwellI explained this above.18:28
maakuright but a block isn't limited to p2sh spends...18:28
@gmaxwellRight but seg wit area is limited to segwit spends.18:28
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gobiasindustriesI'm wondering why there appears to be one bitcoin rich entity arguing with itself on bitcoinocracy.com18:30
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@gmaxwellgobiasindustries: whats the 'arguing with itself' refer to?18:30
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gobiasindustriesthere's a bunch of 500.00051 addresses voting on both sides, they were all funded around the same time in the same increments so I'm guessing it's the same person/entity/whatever18:32
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@gmaxwellwell the 0.0051 is dust that people were spamming to large outputs.18:33
gobiasindustriesok, that makes more sense then.18:33
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@gmaxwellgobiasindustries: Though one of the bitcoinXT trolls was hammering me in PM to "commit to making this binding"; might have been playing the other side to convince me to agree to something outright dumb (and beyond my power in any case) because I thought I would "win".18:33
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petertoddmaaku: thanks, I sent alex an email to clarify; I'll post to bitcoin-dev to correct that if that's the case19:02
petertoddmaaku: hopefully he didn't already tell me the linearization thing - that'd be kinda embarassing :)19:03
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kanzure"i have no idea what a whuffie is" -- maaku19:08
@gmaxwellfortunate person.19:08
@gmaxwellThats a terrible story.19:08
@gmaxwell:)19:08
* gmaxwell sends a bunch of anti-left-spin-counterclockwise whuffie in some random direction19:08
kanzurewas doctorow the actual origin of whuffie stuff?19:09
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@gmaxwellkanzure: the idea has existed elsewhere of course; but I'm pretty sure that name comes from DaOitMK19:11
kanzurei was looking at my irc logs from january 2009 http://gnusha.org/logs/2009-01-10.log http://gnusha.org/logs/2009-01-11.log and around the time that bitcoin.org popped up, there was also bitchun.org19:11
kanzureand bitchun.org was the whuffie stuff19:12
@gmaxwell(to be fair, I don't really think the story is terrible; it's not great and it's over hyped)19:12
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kanzurewas there ever a whuffie implementation of any kind?19:13
@gmaxwell'reddit' ?19:14
kanzureoh :-/19:14
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tulipgobiasindustries: if you have any value of privacy you should stay far away, especially given that voting with proof of stake like that is mostly meaningless anyway.19:21
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jcorganafraid now to say anything around kanzure because his records are more detailed than the NSA's19:23
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kanzureyeah i'm surprised more people haven't talked with me about that or tried to convince me against not doing that19:24
kanzureprobably a selection effect of some kind :-/19:24
CubicEarthI liked Gavin's suggestion we call "Segregated Witness" by another name.  How about "Split Witness" or "Separate Witness"19:24
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jcorganis it a term of art?19:25
jcorgan(well known, specific meaning within a field or community)19:25
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CubicEarthjcorgan: Segregated Witness?19:26
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jcorganyes.  i thought it was a well-defined cryptographic term, could be wrong19:27
jcorganif so, would rather keep it as-is19:27
ajwitness is, segregated is just for bitcoin afaik19:28
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jcorganah, ok19:28
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jcorgandetached witness? (like pgp detached signature)19:28
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CubicEarthMaybe, I'm unfamiliar if it is.  I do know in American English, 'Segregation' is commonly used to refer to a long period of institutionalized racial discrimination.19:29
@gmaxwellit's not actually detatched in most cases.19:29
jcorganCubicEarth: i think context makes that connotaton unlikely19:29
kanzurewords cannot be tainted by racism19:30
CubicEarthjcorgan: you might be right, but what do we have invested in the term "segregated".  Wouldn't "Sepratate" or "Split" be just as good in this case?19:30
moasegregate   verb    set apart from the rest or from each other; isolate or divide.19:30
kanzurei suggest we kickban before this gets out of hand19:31
jcorganreally don't want to bikeshed on this19:31
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aj("remote witness" is actual legal terminology in .au apparently)19:35
ajooo, ooo! "distinguished witness"19:36
jcorgannot that i have any say, but i'm perfectly happy with segregated witness19:36
kanzurethis is off-topic19:36
CubicEarthkanzure: where should it be discussed?19:37
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amilleronly two hard problems in computer science, cash invalidation and naming things19:37
CubicEarthamiller: +119:37
kanzurei wonder if it would be possible for a deployed lightning network to be in the state such that broad amounts of money routing make it cheaper for people to earn money providing money in their channels (as negative fees) rather than actually purchasing coffee.19:39
kanzureor er, for the money they would earn to be more valuable than the coffee they would have had if they didn't provide their BTC as negative fee.19:39
CubicEarthI don't really care much myself. But, Bitcoin doesn't have a PR department, we'd probably be better off if we did, but we don't, so sometimes we may just have to consider how thing might appear to others on our own.19:40
@gmaxwellIf anyone but bitcoin developers and people spectating development see the term something has gone wrong.19:42
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ajamiller: "cash invalidation" eh...19:46
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amilleryou know, like preventing double-spends19:46
jcorgan*groan*19:47
oldbrewyea not enough beer19:47
phantomcircuitamiller, (and off by one errors)19:47
@gmaxwellIn any case, I don't care though segregated is a common term in several domains, including finance and law. (E.g. maintaining segregated client funds)19:48
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ajamiller: hmm, i heard my cpu had multiple megabits of cash, but 1 megabit is 1BTC right? there must be some way to monetise this19:48
ajanyone know what the deal with segwit and p2pkh is? do we just end up with 32B addresses for everything?19:50
rustyaj: naah, IIUC there's a type byte so you can put script in directly for compact scripts like that19:51
ajrusty: oh, i thought type byte was just "1" for the first version19:51
oldbrewhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_chip19:53
oldbrewsounds like history repeating it's self19:54
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alex_leishmani would like to discuss an updated signature scheme for bitcoin that has the potential to effectively remove most signature data from a block.22:17
alex_leishmanare any of the "wizards" online?22:17
phantomcircuitalex_leishman, the standard for irc is to state your question (or statement) not to ask whether people are available to discuss the question22:21
alex_leishmanoh ok. sorry. new to this22:23
phantomcircuitalex_leishman, it's kind of like writing your question on a chalkboard and then coming back in an hour :)22:25
alex_leishmanGot it! Let me compose my question. I'll post soon22:25
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sipai've been working on schnorr signatures, and combining them with a merkle tree of combinations, which can efficiently encode any and/or combinations of required signatures over public keus22:27
alex_leishmanhave you considered BLS signatures?22:27
sipaif you're interested, look up "key tree signatures"22:27
sipaBLS signatures are pretty inefficient to verify22:27
@gmaxwellalex_leishman: they're not batch verifyable in a context which is interesting to us. And pairing is very slow. (also putting aside the new security assumptions for a bit)22:27
@gmaxwellalex_leishman: (BLS signatures are batchable if they all sign the same message or all are the same key)22:28
alex_leishmanActually, I do not think this is the case22:28
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alex_leishmanI was speaking with Dan Boneh about this yesterday22:28
alex_leishmanthis is his idea, not mine22:28
@gmaxwellalex_leishman: Boneh agreed with me that it was not so many weeks ago; so perhaps he's run into something new.22:29
alex_leishmani'm simply working on figuring out the details22:29
alex_leishmanhmmm.22:29
alex_leishmanperhaps there is a miscommunication22:29
alex_leishmanfrom my understanding, all input signatures in a block can be verified as a batch22:29
alex_leishmanso a block may only need to include one aggregate signature22:30
sipathat would be pretty awesome22:31
@gmaxwellYes, one can aggregate signatures, I've implemented this-- but it is one pairing operation per signature.22:31
alex_leishmananyone can verify this single signature if they know all of the public keys associated with the signatures in the group used to make the aggregate signature, i.e. the input public keys22:31
@gmaxwellwhich is fantastically slower than today.22:31
alex_leishmanhow much slower do you think it is?22:31
alex_leishmanDan said it was ~20%22:31
alex_leishmanthat was my understanding22:31
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@gmaxwelloh dear no, state of the art pairing implementats right now are in the ballpart of 0.5 ms on hardware where our ecdsa verify is 70 microseconds.22:32
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@gmaxwell(and maybe twice that speed for batch schnorr verification)22:32
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alex_leishmaninteresting. so the big deal here is the pairing function speed?22:33
alex_leishmanyou're saying it's too slow?22:33
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@gmaxwellin any case the verification equation for the aggregate signature is just pairing(m1,px1)*pairing(m2,px2)*pairing(m3,px3) == pairing(ag,g);  and the aggregate is the product of the regular BLS signatures, (to_point(message)^secret).22:35
@gmaxwellSo thats one pairing per signature plus one.22:35
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alex_leishmanyes22:36
@gmaxwellalex_leishman: right, it wouldn't be an improvement for most bandwidth/cpu limits; at the tip of the chain our performance is already not far from cpu limited.  (it's annoying, there are different limits in different places... long time storage of signatures is a non-issue because of pruning)22:37
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alex_leishmanok, so basically the CPU cost outweighs the bandwidth savings?22:37
alex_leishmanlet's set the pairing function speed aside22:37
alex_leishmanwhat then?22:38
@gmaxwell0.5ms per signature times transaction size implies a speed of under 2mbit/sec. (so say that per core.)22:38
alex_leishmani'm sorry. what is that message in reference to?22:40
@gmaxwellThen it would be a new security assumption; (discrete log security in the BLS group) Though this doesn't bother me that much if its optional.22:40
alex_leishmanyes22:40
@gmaxwellalex_leishman: It was a translation of my example pairing speed into how small amount of bandwidth you'd need before cpu becomes the bottleneck.22:40
alex_leishmanoh ok22:41
alex_leishmanthis scheme would effectively remove all signature data from a block22:41
alex_leishmanwhat's your gut opinion? Is this idea worth formalizing and exploring further?22:42
@gmaxwellYes, I know, I've actually _implemented_ it (for privacy reasons).22:42
alex_leishmanoh ok22:42
@gmaxwellThis kind of aggregation can be turned into a powerful privacy scheme. But it is pretty slow.22:43
@gmaxwellIn bitcoin storage is not a concern.22:43
alex_leishmanbut what about block propagation speed?22:43
alex_leishmannetwork latency for miners. isn't that their concern?22:44
alex_leishmani understand validation slows propagation as well22:44
@gmaxwellWould be slower with this (roughtly) if your connectivity is over  a couple mbit/sec.22:44
alex_leishmanbut that aside22:44
alex_leishmanyeah22:44
alex_leishmani'll talk to dan about pairing speed22:45
alex_leishmanseems like that's the real issue here22:45
@gmaxwellIf we were limited to a super naieve implementation of ECC in a poorly selected group or something the difference wouldn't be so huge.22:45
@gmaxwellalex_leishman: FWIW this is the fastest pairing implementation I've seen code for: https://github.com/herumi/ate-pairing22:49
@gmaxwell(and it's sort of a not fun to integrate code base with runtime dynamic code generation and other hacks)22:50
@gmaxwellon their reference 2.4GHz haswell it takes 488 microseconds.22:51
alex_leishmaninteresting. I will do some more research on this22:52
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alex_leishmanthere might be some cleverness that can be performed that we haven't thought of22:53
@gmaxwellalex_leishman: one sec and I'll give you the anonymous paper that was written on the privacy application22:53
alex_leishmanthanks!22:54
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@gmaxwellhttps://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/wizardry/horasyuanmouton-owas.pdf22:54
alex_leishman@gmaxwell thanks for the feedback. I will dig deeper and come back with any new ideas22:55
@gmaxwellalex_leishman: There may be....  there are things I know of that aren't applicable, e.g. you can precompute the pubkey pairings, but our keys are single use.  It might be cheaper to verify a pairing instead of just compute one; but the transfer group elements are huge and would offset the savings.22:55
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@gmaxwellalex_leishman: feel free to come back with any-- I'm very interested.22:55
alex_leishmanI will. Ok glad to hear you think it's worthwhile to pursue digging deeper.22:56
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alex_leishmanWe actually met a few weeks ago when you were at Stanford. I'm the TA for Dan's class22:57
alex_leishmanone of the TAs22:57
sipaalex_leishman: oh, hi, i was there too (i'm pieter wuille)22:58
alex_leishmanyeah! hey peter. It was nice meeting you as well22:58
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@gmaxwellalex_leishman: there are other tricks I know that also can't be applied here. E.g. if one of the arguments to the pairing is fixed, you can precompute and speed it up a fair bit.23:09
alex_leishmanhmm. interesting. I was thinking about precomputing as much as possible23:10
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