| --- Day changed Tue Jun 15 2010 | ||
| Ian_Daniher | kanzure: here now; pm me with whatever you wanted to talk about, it's a good way to reach me. | 00:42 |
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| nsh | how did you get burnt, Ian_Daniher? | 03:01 |
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| JayDugger | Good morning, everyone. | 06:08 |
| kanzure | hi | 06:09 |
| JayDugger | `sudo skdb make-me -a --with-killer-robots underground_fortress` still returns non-zero, kanzure. | 06:11 |
| kanzure | i had a dream that tim marzullo told me that spikerbox was not open source | 06:12 |
| kanzure | (it was a nightmare) | 06:13 |
| kanzure | JayDugger: that's because there's no underground-fortress package | 06:13 |
| JayDugger | Aw, man...back to digging by hand. | 06:13 |
| cluckj | haha | 06:14 |
| JayDugger | Well, at least that's not some hackneyed nightmare about falling or the like. | 06:15 |
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| * kanzure watched himself on http://www.livestream.com/humanityplus/video?clipId=pla_5275e0b2-fcae-46f5-8bc4-4c3148d510ba | 06:58 | |
| kanzure | i'll have to extract out the video | 06:58 |
| kanzure | at about 48min | 06:58 |
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| Utopiah | hmmm is there a website listing the interesting (according to people in #hplusroadmap ) talks/conferences/workshop happening in SecondLife? NASA CoLab made me wonder | 08:21 |
| Yocttar | kanzure: got some link to that micro fluids dna synthesis? | 08:23 |
| kanzure | Yocttar: http://designfiles.org/papers/microfluidics/ | 08:28 |
| kanzure | Utopiah: there's one coming up in a week.. jessica mullen recommended it and wants me to do transcripts | 08:28 |
| kanzure | it's really disturbing how people are impressed by the ability to type | 08:28 |
| kanzure | ha at design: https://foswiki.sonologic.nl/RevelationSpace/MeterStanden | 08:29 |
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| Yocttar | ty kanzure | 08:41 |
| Ian_Daniher | nsh: yt? | 08:45 |
| kanzure | Utopiah: i'll get the name of the conference in a while | 08:49 |
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| Utopiah | thanks | 08:49 |
| JayDugger | Touch-typing...it made all those years of piano lessons worthwhiel. | 08:56 |
| JayDugger | Crap. That would've been witty, save for the misspelling. | 08:56 |
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| JayDugger | kanzure: Will there be a teleconference/chat for DIY happenings/progress and journal club this week? | 08:57 |
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| JayDugger | Good morning, everyone. | 09:10 |
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| kanzure | http://cyberneticsynthesis.com/ | 09:13 |
| kanzure | JayDugger: yes | 09:13 |
| kanzure | some weird stuff going on here: http://www.atypicalart.com/ | 09:13 |
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| kanzure | http://prostheticknowledge.tumblr.com/post/695241910/cockroach-pimps-a-sweet-ride-via-hack-a-day | 09:17 |
| kanzure | http://www.gadgetrepair.info/article/sxsw+bug+labs+says+content+will+drive+open+source+hardware.html (nothing new) | 09:18 |
| kanzure | http://www.motherboard.tv/2010/6/10/h-summit-sneak-preview | 09:22 |
| kanzure | diy liquid nitrogen generator http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1414028 (same one from the other day) | 09:22 |
| kanzure | "kickstart my pcr!" http://maradydd.livejournal.com/513904.html | 09:22 |
| kanzure | http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1686254&cid=32576474 just for idle reading | 09:42 |
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| Utopiah | are there initiatives on nootropics not relying on BigPharma? | 10:30 |
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| Utopiah | (cgecking http://ginkgobioworks.com/ ) | 10:45 |
| Utopiah | (they are looking for a "DNA Padawan" ;) | 10:50 |
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| kanzure | various comments: http://www.metafilter.com/92820/The-Real-Science-Gap-Jobs | 11:21 |
| kanzure | hi LilxHK | 11:21 |
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| kanzure | hi pmetzger | 12:52 |
| kanzure | just got your email.. i was busy messing around with rmtp from livestream.com | 12:52 |
| kanzure | the videos are hour long segments and i'm trying to clean up the data | 12:53 |
| kanzure | (from the summit) | 12:53 |
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| pmetzger | Didn't the hplus people just record the video? or is the only video available the captured streams? | 13:04 |
| pmetzger | (i.e. they haven't released it or they never recorded it?) | 13:06 |
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| kanzure | pmetzger: they claim they recorded in HD, but they haven't released the videos yet | 13:10 |
| kanzure | besides.. i'd like to post it to youtube first so that i can get geographic data | 13:10 |
| Ian_Daniher | kanzure: how'd the talk go? did you get a transcript? | 13:17 |
| kanzure | the talk went well :) | 13:20 |
| kanzure | nobody took a transcript | 13:20 |
| kanzure | aha! just got it working | 13:20 |
| kanzure | ./rtmpdump -r "rtmp://xhumanityplusx.od.livestream-api.com/mogulusProxy" -W "http://cdn.livestream.com/chromelessPlayer/wrappers/SimpleWrapper.swf" -y "mp4:dv08/mogulus-user-files/chhumanityplus/2010/06/13/1bdf1fca-917e-4b3a-9fc7-04b31078d9c5.mp4" -p "http://www.livestream.com/humanityplus/video?clipId=pla_5275e0b2-fcae-46f5-8bc4-4c3148d510ba" -o output.flv | 13:20 |
| kanzure | btw, rtmp sucks | 13:20 |
| pmetzger | so much does. | 13:21 |
| kanzure | libssl-dev should be called libopenssl-dev :/ | 13:37 |
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| kanzure | fenn: someone named Christopher Rasch has emailed me | 13:40 |
| kanzure | "the lightbulb was such a good idea that it became the symbol for having an idea" | 13:52 |
| pmetzger | kanzure: so you mentioned that people have been hacking on nanoengineer 1? | 13:56 |
| pmetzger | is there a repo set up for this? | 13:56 |
| kanzure | not at the moment | 13:56 |
| kanzure | i am trying to get technologiclee to log back on | 13:56 |
| kanzure | he has a lot of experience with nanoengineer1 ;) | 13:56 |
| kanzure | i did some development on nanoengineer1 for him to help him get things running | 13:57 |
| Ian_Daniher | kanzure: have you seen hundredideas around recently? have a bioreactor idea I want to pitch to him. | 13:57 |
| kanzure | but he wiped his hard drive before i could ask for the code i hacked up | 13:57 |
| kanzure | Ian_Daniher: not today. pitch it anyway :) | 13:57 |
| Ian_Daniher | you may have already seen it on diybio | 13:57 |
| Ian_Daniher | essentially, this month's DIYBioBoston Meetup is discussion benchtop algal bioreactors | 13:58 |
| Ian_Daniher | I came up with a somewhat-feasible design for an integrated bioreactor / centrifuge | 13:58 |
| Ian_Daniher | it'd sit on your desk and act as a kinetic sculpture / zen thing, except when peak algal concentrations were reached | 13:58 |
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| Ian_Daniher | at which point it'd become a spinning thing of death. | 13:59 |
| Ian_Daniher | by which I mean "safe microindustrial benchtop centrifuge" | 13:59 |
| Ian_Daniher | :D | 13:59 |
| Ian_Daniher | not really h+, but of interest to you / anyone else here? | 14:00 |
| kanzure | one of the ideas from the literature is to do microfluidic circuits for separating algae from water, btw | 14:00 |
| kanzure | that way you don't have moving parts of doom | 14:01 |
| pmetzger | back in a few seconds, loading new zenicb/zenirc. | 14:01 |
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| Ian_Daniher | that'd be really cool - is it easily DIYable? | 14:01 |
| Ian_Daniher | or feasibly diyable? | 14:01 |
| kanzure | with a laser cutter, sure | 14:01 |
| Ian_Daniher | centrifuging is really inefficient, from most standpoints | 14:01 |
| Ian_Daniher | the issue is that most algae of interest is single-cell, and thus not easily filterable. | 14:01 |
| kanzure | what would be really interesting is a "please will you release your oil" genetic pathway / circuit dealy | 14:02 |
| cluckj | Ian_Daniher is there a diy bio boston meetup this month? | 14:02 |
| kanzure | Ian_Daniher: the articles re: microfluidics are at http://designfiles.org/papers/microfluidics/ just search for papers with 'spiral' in the title, or 'separation' | 14:03 |
| Ian_Daniher | mac said there was one on the 20-somethingth. He promised to email the list about it early this week. | 14:03 |
| cluckj | ah okay | 14:03 |
| cluckj | good! | 14:03 |
| cluckj | I was pestering him to have regular meetings :) | 14:03 |
| Ian_Daniher | haha, ditto :) | 14:03 |
| kanzure | while you two are talking about it | 14:04 |
| cluckj | excellent :D | 14:04 |
| kanzure | con? | 14:04 |
| kanzure | any suggestions for the finalized time tomorrow for the telecon? | 14:04 |
| cluckj | oh | 14:04 |
| cluckj | I doubt I can make the 1pm est slot, I have to do museum work | 14:04 |
| cluckj | what were the other choices? 6est? | 14:05 |
| Ian_Daniher | any time mid-to-late PM EST is good on my end | 14:05 |
| kanzure | the choices were like noon, or 6pm EST / 3pm PST | 14:06 |
| Ian_Daniher | 6pmEST++ | 14:06 |
| cluckj | I'm out of work at like, 5... | 14:07 |
| cluckj | I like 6pm est too | 14:07 |
| kanzure | 10AM PST / 1PM EST or 3PM PST / 6PM EST basically | 14:07 |
| kanzure | okay | 14:07 |
| Ian_Daniher | 6pm_est += 2 | 14:07 |
| kanzure | but 1pm EST was recommended because of meredith et al. | 14:07 |
| cluckj | don't let me be the deciding factor | 14:07 |
| kanzure | i like 6pm a lot too.. | 14:07 |
| cluckj | I can listen to a recording | 14:07 |
| cluckj | haha | 14:07 |
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| cluckj | I haven't talked with meredith yet, even though I talked about her in one of my presentations :fail: | 14:08 |
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| cluckj | 6pm est *might* be good for europe too | 14:10 |
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| pmetzger | kanzure: how do you know Eugen Leitl, anyway? | 14:14 |
| kanzure | internet :) | 14:14 |
| kanzure | various mailing lists | 14:15 |
| pmetzger | yah, he's on a lot of them. | 14:15 |
| kanzure | me too: http://heybryan.org/mailing_lists.html | 14:15 |
| pmetzger | probably more than he should be. :) | 14:15 |
| pmetzger | kanzure: your list is a few years old. :) | 14:15 |
| kanzure | oh crap | 14:15 |
| pmetzger | I'm on too many, too, but I don't read most of them. A few hundred. i pick at them using gnus, but I probably should dump 2/3rds. | 14:15 |
| kanzure | i should update it | 14:16 |
| pmetzger | :) | 14:16 |
| pmetzger | I now have twitter, ichat windows for jabber and AIM, zenicb and zenirc open at once. This is not a recipe for productivity. | 14:17 |
| kanzure | you can integrate under pidgin.im if you want (previously GAIM) | 14:17 |
| cluckj | pidgin is great :) | 14:18 |
| fenn | kanzure: i'll probably be moving in with chris rasch | 14:18 |
| fenn | what did he ask? | 14:18 |
| kanzure | for my phone number | 14:19 |
| kanzure | how was work today? | 14:19 |
| pmetzger | pidgin isn't as nice for chat rooms as emacs based clients. also, I'm not sure if there is a native mac version these days, though I should ask google... | 14:19 |
| fenn | still there, boring and useless pretty much | 14:19 |
| kanzure | to be expected | 14:20 |
| fenn | i'm trying to get around the firewall so i can access my django test server on davinci (there's no linux infrastructure afaict, and the only linux box i know of is not on the network (AND i'm not allowed to plug anything into the network)) | 14:20 |
| kanzure | btw davinci is piling up with different django test servers | 14:20 |
| kanzure | good luck finding an unused port number :P (ok ok it's not that hard) | 14:21 |
| fenn | though tbh i dont know if they even want a django app, i hear mumbling about excel | 14:21 |
| kanzure | for some reason i can't imagine you hanging out around a water cooler | 14:21 |
| kanzure | or in a cubicle | 14:21 |
| fenn | well it appears to be running on fennetic.net:10001, i just dont particularly like having to use elinks | 14:22 |
| fenn | well, you better believe it | 14:22 |
| cluckj | lol | 14:22 |
| fenn | i'm having trouble with the impedance mismatch between me + corporatocracy | 14:23 |
| kanzure | no shit | 14:23 |
| fenn | i have next to me a handwritten database schema | 14:23 |
| kanzure | was it a napkin sketch thing done over lunch? | 14:24 |
| fenn | (that i wrote, because i couldnt figure out how to copy files from one computer to another) | 14:24 |
| kanzure | wtf? | 14:24 |
| kanzure | if they are on windows you should consider just typing in //computer_name/ into the IE browser | 14:24 |
| fenn | the computer isn't on the network | 14:25 |
| superkuh | /computer_name/ ? Does it auto-switch the / for \? | 14:25 |
| fenn | see there's a linux box they use to test cameras, and 'confidential information' can't be allowed to escape from that box | 14:25 |
| superkuh | Windows is usually \\computer_name | 14:25 |
| kanzure | superkuh: wait, you're right | 14:25 |
| kanzure | yes | 14:25 |
| fenn | nevermind the windows box with the same info on it sitting right next to it.. | 14:26 |
| kanzure | wasn't there some file transfer utility out there that spits out a file through the speakers, and then you can use a microphone on another computer to listen for the file? | 14:26 |
| cluckj | lol | 14:26 |
| cluckj | that's pretty sweet | 14:26 |
| fenn | i remember one that would flash the monitor black/white | 14:26 |
| pmetzger | kanzure: modem redux. | 14:27 |
| cluckj | I had one of those timex datalink watches in high school | 14:27 |
| kanzure | pmetzger: we're usually not this lame in here | 14:27 |
| kanzure | fenn: pmetzger wants to work on nanoengineer1 with us :) | 14:27 |
| cluckj | haha | 14:27 |
| kanzure | i haven't pitched skdb-nanoengineer1 integration, or CAD/nano-integration stuff that eleitl was talking about bringing to the table a while back | 14:28 |
| pmetzger | Sort of. Mostly I'm working on DFT simulations but NE-1 is good for sketching up molecules and I want to see it survive. | 14:28 |
| kanzure | ha | 14:28 |
| pmetzger | does Eugen show up around here? | 14:28 |
| kanzure | once in a blue moon | 14:28 |
| kanzure | it's funny.. the GUI is the most questionable part, IMHO, of NE-1 | 14:28 |
| pmetzger | yah, but there aren't a lot of programs to let you sketch up molecules. | 14:29 |
| kanzure | true that | 14:29 |
| pmetzger | the molecular mechanics back end is VERY questionable. | 14:29 |
| pmetzger | as in, I don't really believe the results in a wide variety of conditions. And, since it is MM, it won't show reactions, especially self-rearrangement reactions. | 14:30 |
| pmetzger | though MM works well enough for gross molecule motion. | 14:31 |
| pmetzger | anyway, NE-1 is what we have. | 14:32 |
| pmetzger | and it is better to improve what you have than to have nothing. :) | 14:32 |
| pmetzger | some folks a couple of years ago claimed to have a DFT variant that scaled linearly in the size of the system. that would be a real breakthrough, but they never produced working code to my knowledge. | 14:35 |
| pmetzger | that would make simulating reactions ever so much easier. | 14:36 |
| pmetzger | (Did I just stun everyone into silence?) | 14:38 |
| kanzure | no, i was on the phone | 14:38 |
| kanzure | i need to go back through the ne-1 source | 14:38 |
| kanzure | stomp around a bit and poke at it | 14:38 |
| kanzure | pmetzger: do you have a collection of papers on molecular mechanics and stuff by freitas, drexler, or merkle? | 14:39 |
| kanzure | http://designfiles.org/papers/ is my collection but sadly it's lacking in the nanotech areas | 14:39 |
| pmetzger | I could aim you at some computational chemistry papers. | 14:41 |
| pmetzger | freitas, drexler, merkle, etc. don't write much on computational chemistry, they mostly have written about MNT. | 14:41 |
| pmetzger | CC is a tool for doing their calculations... | 14:42 |
| pmetzger | you get the distinction between MM and quantum methods? | 14:42 |
| pmetzger | MM pretends the atoms are funny newtonian balls connected by strange springs. | 14:42 |
| pmetzger | so it will approximately tell you about motions and gross mechanical interactions. | 14:43 |
| kanzure | yes | 14:43 |
| pmetzger | it won't explain bonding at all. only quantum mechanics can tell you why bonds are made and broken or calcualte energies of systems accurately. | 14:43 |
| kanzure | bbl (dinner) | 14:43 |
| kanzure | papers would be hawt though | 14:44 |
| kanzure | either by email or reference in here :) | 14:44 |
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| fenn | you know, i think what eleitl may have been rambling about was 'lazy evaluation', he just didnt know it | 15:00 |
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| fenn | you can't specify the coordinates of all the atoms (not without a n*10^23 byte memory storage), so only evaluate coordinates when it matters | 15:01 |
| pmetzger | fenn: don't get what you mean... | 15:10 |
| genehacker | atomic file formats? | 15:23 |
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| pmetzger | PDB is one of the more frequenly used file formats for specifying atomic coordinates in molecules. | 15:32 |
| pmetzger | it works. | 15:32 |
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| kanzure | atlanta fablab-diybio thingy http://arkfab.org/ | 15:57 |
| fenn | pmetzger: pdb was mentioned as an example format that didn't do what he wanted | 15:58 |
| pmetzger | ?? | 15:58 |
| fenn | don't ask me | 15:59 |
| pmetzger | he's not responding on jabber, which isn't surprising, he's in Germany after all. | 15:59 |
| kanzure | http://gnusha.org/logs/2009-12-28.log | 15:59 |
| kanzure | or possibly: | 15:59 |
| kanzure | http://gnusha.org/logs/2009-12-23.log | 15:59 |
| pmetzger | PDB is pretty mediocre as a format, it isn't what I'd design, but it works... | 15:59 |
| kanzure | http://gnusha.org/logs/2009-12-24.log is another possibility | 16:00 |
| pmetzger | what's eugen's handle? | 16:00 |
| kanzure | eleitl | 16:00 |
| pmetzger | got it. | 16:00 |
| genehacker | keep in mind PDB was designed by bioinformatics people... | 16:00 |
| kanzure | let's not be racist | 16:00 |
| genehacker | PDB wasn't designed for nanomachines | 16:01 |
| pmetzger | wow, too much to read... | 16:01 |
| genehacker | unless you count proteins as nanomachines | 16:01 |
| pmetzger | genehacker: PDB was sesigned by people who don't know computers well. | 16:01 |
| pmetzger | that's the real problem. | 16:02 |
| kanzure | hah | 16:02 |
| pmetzger | Many proteins *are* nanomachines. ATP synthase, ribosomes. | 16:02 |
| kanzure | don't hate on the bioinformaticians, they're just a bit challenged sometimes :) | 16:02 |
| pmetzger | I don't mean that to be an attack. It is hard to know more than one discipline well. | 16:02 |
| kanzure | (where did klafka go?) | 16:02 |
| pmetzger | most CS people don't understand chemistry at all. That's why I spent an additional three years in school and I don't know if it was enough. :| | 16:02 |
| pmetzger | Anyway, PDB is a weird format if you're a CS person, but I can see how it evolved, and there are lots of viewers etc. | 16:03 |
| pmetzger | I'd do something very different if I was designing from scratch, but I've learned not to fight unnecessary battles... | 16:03 |
| pmetzger | ultimately, to do CAD on systems with billions of atoms it will need replacing. For now, eh. | 16:04 |
| kanzure | pmetzger: eugen and the rest of us were talking about the idea of doing a CAD thing that could integrate nanoscale up to whatever the normal engineering scales are | 16:04 |
| kanzure | in some easy to use python library | 16:04 |
| pmetzger | That would be very very cool. | 16:04 |
| kanzure | so.. we've been working on skdb, or "apt-get for hardware" | 16:05 |
| pmetzger | The thingiverse people etc. have been using blender and worse as CAD tools. | 16:05 |
| kanzure | non-technical article: http://hplusmagazine.com/articles/toys-tools/hackerspace-your-garage-downloading-diy-hardware-over-web | 16:05 |
| kanzure | yeah, thingiverse users should be raped and burned to death | 16:05 |
| pmetzger | CAD does not mean "3D modeling." | 16:05 |
| kanzure | including you, genehacker | 16:05 |
| kanzure | although at least you use CAD tools sometimes | 16:05 |
| pmetzger | kanzure: hey, don't hate on them, they are at least building shit. :) | 16:05 |
| kanzure | bah | 16:05 |
| pmetzger | I have a serious bias towards people who get off their asses and do stuff. :) | 16:05 |
| kanzure | anyway, the reason why they think it's ok is because "oh! well my reprap/makerbot thing prints out STL ok, so it must be good!" | 16:05 |
| pmetzger | and a serious bias against people who talk and never do... | 16:05 |
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| kanzure | openscad looks okay and such, but it only exports to a mesh format | 16:06 |
| pmetzger | they think it is okay because they don't have better. what's needed is some sort of well designed open framework -- a CAD version of emacs. :) | 16:06 |
| kanzure | skdb overview: http://adl.serveftp.org/dokuwiki/skdb | 16:06 |
| kanzure | pmetzger: opencascade is huge and bloated :/ | 16:06 |
| pmetzger | ah, so it is like emacs already! :) | 16:06 |
| kanzure | we made the mistake of making skdb dependent on opencascade for a lot of the CAD stuff | 16:06 |
| pmetzger | but in the wrong way. :) | 16:06 |
| kanzure | and it has licensing issues "sort of" | 16:06 |
| pmetzger | so ultimately the notion is that you apt-get a design and blat it into your manufacturing device? | 16:07 |
| kanzure | well, the design repository stuff is pretty easy to do IMHO | 16:07 |
| kanzure | the important thing is representing dependencies and required tools | 16:07 |
| pmetzger | whether that's a 3D printer, 5 axis CNC machine, etc? | 16:07 |
| * kanzure nods | 16:07 | |
| pmetzger | or hopefully ultimately, molecular manufacturing infrastructure. | 16:08 |
| pmetzger | the only issue to me is that no one has ever built a unified CAD system capable of handling even macroscopic electronics and mechanical in one system. | 16:08 |
| pmetzger | Irony is, the people who know the most about this are folks like John Walker. | 16:09 |
| kanzure | well, in this system, electronics would be integrated in the sense that you'd have usable datasheets | 16:09 |
| pmetzger | Too bad John probably has no interest in doing something... | 16:09 |
| kanzure | and then you'd have a geometry for each chip.. | 16:09 |
| kanzure | or smt component | 16:09 |
| pmetzger | It would be nice to have a unified simulation system for both control and mechanics. | 16:09 |
| pmetzger | esp. once one gets to nanorobotics, which are the biggest engineering challenge I can name... | 16:09 |
| kanzure | have you used openscad before? or heard about it | 16:10 |
| pmetzger | nope. | 16:10 |
| kanzure | it's povray basically except with C-like syntax | 16:10 |
| pmetzger | Truth be told, I've touched AutoCAD once for a few minutes. | 16:10 |
| kanzure | well, actually, even povray does | 16:10 |
| kanzure | it just has syntax that makes it feel like CSG, and then has a CSG backend with sketchy licensing issues | 16:11 |
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| pmetzger | BTW, I found out why that XVIVO video we saw Sunday morning looked so good. | 16:11 |
| kanzure | anyway, the idea is to do some programming instead of transmitting around a file | 16:11 |
| pmetzger | Fully radiosity rendered. Ten minutes per frame on a hex core machine. | 16:11 |
| kanzure | so, by running a python file, you'd get your solid geometry model generated | 16:11 |
| pmetzger | so here's the thing. a real CAD system lets you simulate, not just do solid modeling. if you have a real CAD system, you design a mechanical clock, say, you can turn the gears and see that something hits something else so it won't work right *before* you build. | 16:12 |
| kanzure | sure, but that's not the same thing as CFD or DFT | 16:12 |
| pmetzger | CFD? | 16:12 |
| kanzure | computational fluid dynamics stuff. | 16:13 |
| kanzure | like heat flow simulations | 16:13 |
| pmetzger | ah, okay. | 16:13 |
| kanzure | collision detection isn't usually referred to as simulation.. | 16:13 |
| kanzure | gah the vocab is so messed up in this field | 16:13 |
| kanzure | i mean, you usually do collision detection in a simulation, yes | 16:13 |
| timschmidt | nor are there any open source CAD applications (with the possible exception of Blender, and perhaps some of the animation-related features of K-3D) capable of doing that yet | 16:13 |
| kanzure | timschmidt: blender is not CAD | 16:13 |
| pmetzger | as I said, I'm an amateur at this, and too many other things... | 16:13 |
| timschmidt | kanzure: I know | 16:13 |
| timschmidt | that's my point | 16:14 |
| kanzure | anyway, what's wrong with HeeksCAD with collision detection? | 16:14 |
| timschmidt | we have _nothing_ capable of doing proper mechanical simulation | 16:14 |
| pmetzger | I suspect playing with AutoCAD for a few hours is something I should do. Unfortunately, it is expensive to get your hands on. | 16:14 |
| timschmidt | so requiring that as a feature right off the bat seems odd | 16:14 |
| pmetzger | without proper simulation of the function of devices, you're just doing a very sophisticated sort of drawing. | 16:15 |
| kanzure | timschmidt: btw, pmetzger is new here :) | 16:15 |
| pmetzger | with it, you can check that what you design actually works... | 16:15 |
| timschmidt | pmetzger: sure | 16:15 |
| timschmidt | but that's what we've got to work with at the moment | 16:15 |
| pmetzger | in the nanoscale stuff, which is my primary interest, making sure everything works is the most important part right now... | 16:15 |
| kanzure | i think the most important part is the dependency tree for building it.. | 16:15 |
| kanzure | :) | 16:15 |
| kanzure | doesn't matter if it works if you can't make it: no amount of tweaking will fix that | 16:16 |
| kanzure | where it=nanotech stuff | 16:16 |
| pmetzger | speaking of which, did you see the interview recently with JvEhr? | 16:16 |
| kanzure | no? linky? | 16:16 |
| pmetzger | they've apparently been building some nice high vacuum stuff in house. hang on, I'll get the link. | 16:16 |
| pmetzger | http://nextbigfuture.com/2010/05/jim-von-ehr-founder-and-owner-of-zyvex.html | 16:17 |
| pmetzger | apparently, no one sells the UHV SPM stuff. you have to build it in house. | 16:17 |
| kanzure | wtf | 16:17 |
| kanzure | that sucks | 16:17 |
| pmetzger | we had a big UHV rig at the lab I worked at a few years ago, it was nasty... | 16:17 |
| kanzure | i was looking into building UHV chambers a few years ago | 16:17 |
| kanzure | i was super interested in bose-einstein condensates | 16:17 |
| pmetzger | weighed a few tons. We called it "Martha". | 16:17 |
| kanzure | for some reason it turned into a von neumann probe page for me http://heybryan.org/projects/atoms/ | 16:18 |
| kanzure | because i was interested in atom holography | 16:18 |
| kanzure | has some good uhv howto links on that page though :) | 16:18 |
| pmetzger | doing SPM based nano bootstrap requires UHV I think, though Merkle has talked about using systems with pure argon atmospheres during bootstrap. | 16:18 |
| kanzure | hehe with a good page on how to construct an atom laser: http://heybryan.org/projects/atoms/atom_holography_notes.html | 16:19 |
| kanzure | pmetzger: are you familiar with paul rothemund's work? (or erik winfree's lab) | 16:19 |
| pmetzger | yes. | 16:19 |
| kanzure | dna origami and dna-embedded electronics and such | 16:19 |
| kanzure | or, i guess dna algorithmic assembly to embed electronics and other components in particular places | 16:19 |
| pmetzger | I've heard Erik talk, read Rothemund's papers, interviewed with Ned Seeman about doing a doctorate with him but I decided against. | 16:19 |
| kanzure | cool | 16:20 |
| kanzure | i saw ned at singularity summit 2009 | 16:20 |
| pmetzger | I'm a direct-to-diamondoid type though. | 16:20 |
| kanzure | i was really surprised to see ned there | 16:20 |
| kanzure | so i chated with him a bit :) really cool guy | 16:20 |
| kanzure | *chatted | 16:20 |
| pmetzger | he likes showing up at those things here and there. | 16:20 |
| pmetzger | he's really nice. started as a crystallographer you know. | 16:20 |
| pmetzger | still is at heart. | 16:20 |
| * kanzure nods | 16:20 | |
| pmetzger | Anyway, my feeling is this: developing a full new technology (DNA origami) only to replace it once you have all the parts in place seems like a slow way to go. | 16:21 |
| kanzure | heh, sure | 16:21 |
| pmetzger | also, lots of people working on it already, few working on direct to diamondoid, so I feel like I can make more impact there. | 16:21 |
| kanzure | i was working under andrew ellington for a while, i was tasked with mimicing/stealing erik winfree's / paul's work | 16:21 |
| pmetzger | kind of why I'm not working on Aubrey's program -- not much impact I can have there... | 16:21 |
| kanzure | so paul came to talk at our lab once or twice, etc. | 16:21 |
| pmetzger | I understood from Ned that a lot of the trick to reproducing the results was in stuff like purity of starting materials and technique tricks. | 16:22 |
| kanzure | yep | 16:22 |
| kanzure | lots of gel streaking otherwise.. | 16:22 |
| pmetzger | not surprised, given the time I spent in a synthetic organic lab... | 16:22 |
| pmetzger | the real world is ever so much messier than the world of theory. :) | 16:22 |
| kanzure | hey, btw, who tend to be crazier? the molecular biologists or the material engineers | 16:23 |
| timschmidt | both? | 16:23 |
| pmetzger | hard for me to tell. I don't know a lot of material scientists. | 16:23 |
| pmetzger | and I like most of the mol bio people I've met. :) | 16:23 |
| kanzure | oh, sure, i like them too | 16:23 |
| pmetzger | btw, bryan, surprised you haven't read "Nanosystems" given your interests. it is kind of the bible. | 16:23 |
| pmetzger | the mol bio people are cool. they automate their work with robots and computers. | 16:24 |
| pmetzger | the synthetic organic chemists are still working with the same tools they had in 1900 pretty much. | 16:24 |
| kanzure | yeah.. i've kind of avoided MNT stuff for fear of going down the deep dark hole of theoretical masturbation without a way to build stuff | 16:24 |
| pmetzger | bryan: I think we have ways to start trying to build stuff now. | 16:24 |
| kanzure | nah, not all the molecular people are doing robotics :( at least not the lab i was in | 16:24 |
| pmetzger | bryan: but it is Not Easy. | 16:24 |
| kanzure | yeah, various scanning probe tip methods i guess? | 16:24 |
| pmetzger | kanzure: many of them are though. | 16:24 |
| pmetzger | I think scanning probes are the way to start, yah. | 16:25 |
| pmetzger | the nice thing is, the chem we develop for the bootstrap, we can keep once we get past bootstrap. | 16:25 |
| pmetzger | no wasted design. | 16:25 |
| kanzure | so what's the plan in general? drop a few atoms down and hope something happens? | 16:25 |
| pmetzger | no. the notion is to put very controlled molecular tips on the ends of SPMs and build with them. the Merkle-Freitas paper describes a closed set of tools. | 16:25 |
| pmetzger | if you had all of them you could build all of them. | 16:25 |
| timschmidt | I'd love to build a hobbiest FIB (focused ion beam) machine here at home... start making some of my own ICs. But I fear gallium arsenide might be hard to source. | 16:26 |
| pmetzger | and a lot more. | 16:26 |
| pmetzger | timschmidt: not to mention insanely toxic. :) | 16:26 |
| kanzure | timschmidt: i think there are ways to do it without an ion beam | 16:26 |
| timschmidt | :) | 16:26 |
| kanzure | pmetzger: i've been meaning to build an AFM for direct DNA sequencing | 16:26 |
| kanzure | just fyi as something on my todo list | 16:26 |
| pmetzger | AFMs are cool. The fact that they're easy enough to use for undergrads is amazing to me. | 16:27 |
| pmetzger | when I went back to school, one of our pchem lab sessions was "image some graphene on the AFM". we did it. it worked. | 16:27 |
| kanzure | have you seen the diy afm stuff out there? :) | 16:27 |
| pmetzger | it was amazing to see the chicken wire patterns start to appear on the scene and know we were imaging atoms. | 16:27 |
| pmetzger | when I was a kid the dogma was no human would ever see an atom. | 16:27 |
| pmetzger | which turned out to be bullshit thank goodness. | 16:27 |
| kanzure | i really like the simplicity of the design of an afm setup | 16:28 |
| pmetzger | I've seen no specific DIY AFM, but I've seen lots of DIY SPM stuff in general... | 16:28 |
| pmetzger | a lot of people seem to build their own AFMs and STMs. | 16:28 |
| kanzure | yeah i think there was at least one diy tunneling rigup | 16:28 |
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| cluckj | <kanzure> hey, btw, who tend to be crazier? the molecular biologists or the material engineers <-- equally crazy as far as I can tell | 16:29 |
| kanzure | the molecular biologists will be like "let's mutate an ocean vent bacteria gene and put it into a monkey's penis and see if it explodes" | 16:29 |
| pmetzger | there was this one little ten second very high energy TEM film in Sagan's "Cosmos" series on PBS where they showed some uranium atoms and it was very exciting 30 years ago. Now, you can image atoms all you want. It is so fucking cool. | 16:29 |
| kanzure | while material engineers are trying to play around with grey goo like it's putty | 16:29 |
| kanzure | i dunno, it's hard to tell :) | 16:29 |
| cluckj | yeeeep, like I said :) | 16:30 |
| pmetzger | anyway, one big insight from Drexler is that if you have absolute positional control in UHV, you can do reactions you could never manage in solution phase chemistry. | 16:30 |
| kanzure | is there a torrent for 'nanosystems'? | 16:31 |
| kanzure | or something | 16:31 |
| pmetzger | doubtless, but the book itself is $3.50 used on amazon. | 16:31 |
| kanzure | heh | 16:31 |
| pmetzger | I'll send you a copy out of my own pocket if you'll read it. | 16:31 |
| pmetzger | If you can find a torrent though that would be very cool. | 16:31 |
| cluckj | gigapedia? | 16:31 |
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| pmetzger | anyway, though, at $3.50 used it is cheap enough for most people to buy. :) | 16:32 |
| kanzure | my connection is going to be slow for the next 20min.. uploading my last weekend's talk | 16:32 |
| JayDugger | Good evening, everyone. | 16:32 |
| cluckj | hehe, I spent all my summer fun money for h+ | 16:32 |
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| pmetzger | With the student discount and driving myself and crashing on a friend's floor, H+ cost me about $200. | 16:33 |
| kanzure | i paid for three other tickets and for their hotel rooms | 16:33 |
| pmetzger | including overpriced parking in harvard square. | 16:33 |
| kanzure | but it was worth it i think | 16:33 |
| cluckj | I waited too long to register since I didn't know if I was going and paid $150 @_@ | 16:34 |
| pmetzger | I wish there were fewer "business opportunities after the singularity!" talks but whatever. | 16:34 |
| pmetzger | there were good people to meet and talk to. | 16:35 |
| kanzure | 18:34 < Oort> kanzure: Modern practitioners have too much data and are engaged in a theory-free reduction of it under the neologism 'bioinformatics'. | 16:35 |
| cluckj | yep | 16:35 |
| cluckj | I had a really great weekend | 16:35 |
| kanzure | i laughed hysterically when that one group was trying to say that foursquare was a sign of the singularity | 16:35 |
| kanzure | todo: facebook, zoodango, peoplejar, tabup, wayzon, eventbee, eventful, amiando, acteva, ticketfly, eventsbot, center'd, zoji, mobaganda | 16:36 |
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| pmetzger | genehacker seems to have an unstable connection. :) | 16:37 |
| cluckj | pmetzger where were you coming from? | 16:37 |
| kanzure | he doesn't know how to use screen | 16:37 |
| pmetzger | New York City. | 16:37 |
| pmetzger | though I'm in Philadelphia half the time. | 16:38 |
| cluckj | oh cool, I grew up in Bensalem | 16:38 |
| pmetzger | I'm at U. Penn but I live in NYC. | 16:38 |
| JayDugger | What do the elements of that "todo:" set have in common? | 16:39 |
| kanzure | they were [Bnot quite sure yet ;-) | 16:40 |
| kanzure | ugh apparently if you type too fast, 'screen' passes through your control characters | 16:40 |
| kanzure | or, er, something like that | 16:40 |
| jrayhawk | irssi is fullscreen ncurses, so you could just use dtach instead. | 16:45 |
| jrayhawk | this has the added benefit of not mangling unicode | 16:45 |
| pmetzger | I use zenirc because I'm an emacs addict. | 16:45 |
| kanzure | i haven't yet figured out the difference | 16:45 |
| JayDugger | Does irssi play well from inside a screen session? | 16:46 |
| Utopiah | yes | 16:46 |
| kanzure | usually. | 16:46 |
| jrayhawk | Other than unicode and random screen crashes. | 16:46 |
| JayDugger | Doesn't irssi start its' own screen session, at least by default? | 16:46 |
| kanzure | right :) | 16:46 |
| kanzure | no irssi doesn't seem to do that | 16:46 |
| JayDugger | Alright, time to RTFMp. | 16:47 |
| jrayhawk | Irssi has its own session management, but doesn't offer any form of detachability as far as I know. | 16:47 |
| Utopiah | only problem I know was trying to do a 2 lines irssi window then it crashed, beside that has be been running for months non-stop without glitches (unicor char included) | 16:47 |
| JayDugger | http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/hplussummit/ | 16:48 |
| kanzure | http://designfiles.org/~bryan/hplus-summit-2010/photos/ | 16:49 |
| kanzure | 38% uploaded on my vid.. | 16:49 |
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| kanzure | JayDugger: do you have 'nanosystems' in .txt or .pdf form anywhere? | 16:50 |
| pmetzger | .txt wouldn't make sense, too many typeset equations. | 16:50 |
| kanzure | got it | 16:51 |
| pmetzger | you found one? | 16:51 |
| kanzure | er, i mean, 'understood', not that i got it | 16:51 |
| pmetzger | aw. | 16:51 |
| pmetzger | BTW, you've seen diybookscanner or whatever it is called? | 16:51 |
| Utopiah | http://www.diybookscanner.org/ | 16:52 |
| kanzure | i've seen a few different types before | 16:52 |
| kanzure | dunno about one with that exact name though | 16:52 |
| * kanzure is still uploading and unable to do anything (even type..blah) | 16:52 | |
| pmetzger | that's one of them. also: http://bkrpr.org/doku.php | 16:52 |
| pmetzger | those two sites are rather cool. :) | 16:52 |
| kanzure | #bookwarez is dead, where did they move to? | 16:53 |
| QuantumG | undernet | 16:54 |
| superkuh | #bookz on undernet is good. | 16:54 |
| Utopiah | pmetzger: Id like to scan my old paper notebooks with a DIYBookScanner | 16:55 |
| cluckj | gigapedia.com is great :) | 16:55 |
| pmetzger | If I had room in my apartment I'd have a book scanner set up. | 16:56 |
| pmetzger | Kanzure? I forgot... there is an older version of Nanosystems online. It was Drexler's doctoral thesis, and the doctoral thesis version is posted. It was updated a lot for the book, but it is available. | 16:59 |
| pmetzger | it is even legit. | 16:59 |
| kanzure | what are the nature of the updates? | 17:01 |
| pmetzger | Serious editing. | 17:01 |
| pmetzger | A bunch of new material. | 17:01 |
| pmetzger | http://e-drexler.com/d/09/00/Drexler_MIT_dissertation.pdf | 17:01 |
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| kanzure | http://designfiles.org/papers/Drexler_MIT_dissertation.pdf | 17:02 |
| kanzure | http://designfiles.org/papers/Drexler_MIT_dissertation.pdfthank you | 17:02 |
| kanzure | gah | 17:02 |
| kanzure | *thank you | 17:02 |
| pmetzger | As I said, I'll mail you the book if you email me an address, but it will arrive at your door for under $10 if you go to http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0471575186/ref=sr_1_1_olp?ie=UTF8&qid=1276646596&sr=8-1&condition=used | 17:03 |
| QuantumG | shame the nanotechnology people are such socialists | 17:05 |
| kanzure | ? wtf | 17:06 |
| QuantumG | they're basically waiting for the government to confirm, advocate and fund their dreams | 17:07 |
| pmetzger | I'm not. | 17:07 |
| QuantumG | who are you? | 17:07 |
| pmetzger | Male "Homo Sapiens", located in New York City. | 17:08 |
| pmetzger | who are you? :) | 17:08 |
| QuantumG | so what are you doing that makes it relevant to say you're not. | 17:08 |
| pmetzger | I'm a molecular manufacturing research type. | 17:08 |
| pmetzger | There are others you know. | 17:09 |
| kanzure | pmetzger: QuantumG can sometimes be a troll :) but we all love him | 17:09 |
| pmetzger | I think Drexler to some extent expected the government to "do something" but that's another story and I don't speak for him. | 17:10 |
| QuantumG | cause Merkle, Drexler and Freitas Jr are all having fun writing theoretical papers and saying "we should do this, really guys" | 17:10 |
| kanzure | pmetzger: but what /are/ you doing, if you don't mind me asking? | 17:10 |
| kanzure | do you have the burden of a Real Job? | 17:11 |
| pmetzger | Drexler has written nothing in a while. Merkle and Freitas are doing design work, which is really valuable. They write great papers. | 17:11 |
| pmetzger | I'm a doctoral student at Penn. | 17:11 |
| QuantumG | "design work" is the problem | 17:11 |
| pmetzger | With my nano hat on, I do simulations for the moment, but I've worked in wet labs in the past. | 17:11 |
| pmetzger | Without knowing what you want to build, you can spend decades getting nowhere. I have a great story on that. | 17:12 |
| QuantumG | doing some actual experimentation to push the state of the art of what can *actually be done* in this field is being done by.... umm... | 17:12 |
| pmetzger | One of the world's more famous synthetic organic chemists, who I won't name because this is a public channel, spent some years trying to synthesize molecular belts made of fused phenyl rings. | 17:12 |
| pmetzger | If he had bothered to talk to the theory people, he could have read lots of good papers on why the linear belts he was looking at were unstable and could not be synthesized, while staggered belts could have been made because they were stable. | 17:13 |
| pmetzger | Theory without practice is barren masturbation. Lab work without theory is often fruitless. | 17:13 |
| pmetzger | Together, you can get a lot done. | 17:13 |
| cluckj | spoken like a good scientist :P | 17:14 |
| pmetzger | We had a saying in a lab I worked in -- you could save several hours in the library with six months in the lab. :) | 17:14 |
| genehacker | problem is they do nothing but design work | 17:14 |
| cluckj | hahaha | 17:14 |
| QuantumG | genehacker: nanotechnology is the only field where it is legitimate to design things that we have no idea how to build. | 17:15 |
| genehacker | another problem is making and testing the tooltips is gonna be hard | 17:15 |
| genehacker | nah, there are plenty of other fields that do that | 17:15 |
| pmetzger | Anyway, as to who I am, I decided about six years go I wanted to spend all my time on this, so that's what I'm doing. | 17:15 |
| QuantumG | I'm sure there is, but is it considered legitimate work or just masturbation | 17:16 |
| genehacker | Craig venter still hasn't synthesized his M. laboratorium yet | 17:16 |
| genehacker | we'll see | 17:16 |
| QuantumG | at least he has an idea how to do it.. and as far as I can tell, already has the technique ready, just hasn't announced it yet | 17:17 |
| pmetzger | we have a good idea of how to do what we want to do, too. | 17:17 |
| QuantumG | hmm? | 17:17 |
| kanzure | pmetzger: cool :) | 17:17 |
| genehacker | well now he does | 17:17 |
| pmetzger | And venter spent almost 15 years working on M. laboratorium. | 17:17 |
| kanzure | pmetzger: re: your six years ago thing | 17:17 |
| genehacker | someone's trying to validate or disprove mechanosynthesis btw | 17:18 |
| genehacker | with loads of computational chemistry | 17:18 |
| QuantumG | there was always a roadmap for venter's work.. with few "and this a miracle occurs" in there.. | 17:18 |
| pmetzger | same here. | 17:18 |
| genehacker | what's a common pin? | 17:18 |
| QuantumG | same really can't be said for productive nanosystems.. and there won't be if all that is ever done is theoretical work | 17:19 |
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| pmetzger | lots of non-theoretical work has been done. | 17:20 |
| genehacker | like? | 17:20 |
| kanzure | pmetzger: can you pull up some papers via google scholar? | 17:20 |
| kanzure | http://scholar.google.com/ | 17:20 |
| kanzure | like the tool tip paper, or experimental stuff | 17:20 |
| genehacker | Rice Nanocar? | 17:20 |
| pmetzger | Von Ehr & Co are working on using SPMs to make blocks of pure material. | 17:21 |
| genehacker | how? | 17:21 |
| pmetzger | you mean freitas' tooltip paper? it is on Freitas' papers page... | 17:21 |
| genehacker | err what's an SPM again? | 17:21 |
| kanzure | sure but what about the others | 17:21 |
| pmetzger | Scanning probe microscopy. | 17:21 |
| kanzure | scanning probe | 17:21 |
| pmetzger | which paper are you looking for? | 17:21 |
| kanzure | i thought you'd know of some examples of experimental tooltip papers or something | 17:22 |
| genehacker | ah I see | 17:22 |
| kanzure | if i knew the names i'd go get them myself :D | 17:22 |
| genehacker | how do they use the SPM to make blocks of material? | 17:22 |
| pmetzger | genehacker: you know how they used an SPM to spell out IBM in xenon atoms? | 17:22 |
| QuantumG | there's lots of experimentation on silicon.. all the stuff people tend to talk about as MEMS.. | 17:22 |
| pmetzger | thats the general idea. | 17:22 |
| pmetzger | kanzure: There's the stuff done by Moriarty's lab in the UK. Also the paper the japanese did a while ago on doing mechanosynthetic reactions with CO at a tooltip. | 17:22 |
| pmetzger | Not as much as I'd like I'll readily admit. | 17:23 |
| genehacker | link to the japanese one? | 17:23 |
| genehacker | I think I remember that one | 17:23 |
| QuantumG | but I don't see how any of it is related to what Merkle and Freitas Jr are writing about. There's a chasm there. | 17:23 |
| genehacker | ok but they certainly won't be making blocks of xenon for real applications? | 17:23 |
| pmetzger | I don't have the japanese paper handy. | 17:24 |
| pmetzger | no, they're doing blocks of Si and other materials. | 17:24 |
| pmetzger | Xenon atoms aren't going to hold together after all. Noble gas. | 17:24 |
| QuantumG | In fact, getting an answer to "how much tooltip accuracy do you need?" out of Merkle and Freitas Jr is like pulling teeth | 17:24 |
| pmetzger | See the interview I posted with von Ehr above. | 17:24 |
| genehacker | not carbon, but it's a start | 17:24 |
| pmetzger | QuantumG: it is? That information is in the papers. | 17:24 |
| QuantumG | and getting an answer to "how fast is tooltip accuracy improving?" is like knocking them out. | 17:25 |
| pmetzger | er, huh? | 17:25 |
| kanzure | heh this is why we should be looking at the papers themselves | 17:25 |
| kanzure | instead of talking about them.. | 17:25 |
| pmetzger | I thought you said you'd read the M & F tooltip paper... | 17:25 |
| QuantumG | "the papers" eh? How about naming the papers and saying what line it is on... | 17:26 |
| kanzure | or at least naming the papers, how about | 17:26 |
| kanzure | line numbers might be a little extreme | 17:26 |
| kanzure | pmetzger: i did.. a long time ago | 17:26 |
| QuantumG | yes.. there's nothing in there about required tooltip accuracy TO MAKE THE TOOLS | 17:26 |
| kanzure | i think it's entirely reasonable to re-read it | 17:26 |
| pmetzger | QuantumG: yes there is. :) | 17:26 |
| pmetzger | hang on, I'll get a page of refs. | 17:27 |
| QuantumG | maybe I wasn't clear on that.. I'm looking for "how do we get from here to there?" | 17:27 |
| pmetzger | http://www.rfreitas.com/NanoPubls.htm | 17:27 |
| pmetzger | QuantumG: since the tooltips can be used for a closed process, the accuracy they require is sufficient to make them. | 17:28 |
| pmetzger | though I would hope we could use conventional synthetic organic techniques with substituted adamantanes to do some of the bootstrap work. | 17:28 |
| QuantumG | so which paper has the required accuracy? | 17:28 |
| pmetzger | 14 | 17:29 |
| pmetzger | Also chapter 5 of nanosystems. | 17:29 |
| pmetzger | also other places. | 17:29 |
| * kanzure clicks | 17:29 | |
| pmetzger | Suffice it to say, the simulations that Damian Allis did were focused on precisely the accuracy needed | 17:29 |
| pmetzger | how far from optimal would you still get the desired reaction instead of side reactions. | 17:29 |
| pmetzger | saying that there is no knowledge on the required accuracy means you haven't read the work. | 17:30 |
| QuantumG | k, so I have the paper open.. I still don't see it | 17:30 |
| kanzure | http://designfiles.org/papers/nanotech/ | 17:30 |
| pmetzger | So what was done was a set of very nasty quantum chem calculations on what would happen if the tip was displaced along various trajectories | 17:30 |
| pmetzger | The paper is well over 100 pages long. how would you see that in ten seconds? | 17:31 |
| QuantumG | ... umm.. you're providing the reference, you could at least tell me what to look for | 17:31 |
| pmetzger | I haven't read the paper in nine months, but I understand the work. | 17:31 |
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| pmetzger | read what side reactions you get in the paper after a displacement of how many picometers, that's covered in detail. | 17:31 |
| QuantumG | this is why I asked Merkle when he was presenting at SU.. and didn't get an answer. | 17:32 |
| pmetzger | there were also simulations both at LN2 temps and at 300K. | 17:32 |
| pmetzger | at 300K, as you would expect, thermal noise makes the number of side reactions happen more often. | 17:32 |
| pmetzger | There is no one answer. | 17:32 |
| pmetzger | the issue is what error rate you will tolerate | 17:32 |
| pmetzger | the lower the error rate you want, the tighter the control you need. | 17:33 |
| pmetzger | There is a chapter in Nanosystems on that. | 17:33 |
| pmetzger | you can never have 0 defects, of course. | 17:33 |
| QuantumG | ok, let's move on, what's the accuracy of the state of that art? | 17:33 |
| pmetzger | in SPMs? well below an angstrom. | 17:34 |
| pmetzger | sufficiently far below an angstrom to be good enough. | 17:34 |
| pmetzger | the issue is techniques to permit repeatability of positioning in the face of drift over time. | 17:34 |
| QuantumG | so SPMs are already good enough to make the M&F toolset? | 17:34 |
| pmetzger | yes, but techniques for attaching molecules onto SPM tips are not. | 17:34 |
| pmetzger | BTW, SPMs would still need improvements to deal with drift over time. | 17:35 |
| pmetzger | there are several thoughts on that, including putting patterns down on the substrate as calibration marks, re-scanning and doing processing to figure out where you are vs. where you thought you were, etc. | 17:35 |
| pmetzger | it is a significant technology issue but clearly one that can be overcome. | 17:35 |
| QuantumG | so is there any numbers on that repeatability of positioning problem? | 17:36 |
| pmetzger | UHV is unpleasant but the technology exists and is understood. | 17:36 |
| pmetzger | That's a widespread issue in the SPM literature, you can read on that there, yes. | 17:36 |
| pmetzger | The SPM people care about that in general. | 17:36 |
| pmetzger | though not quite in the way people envisioning using SPM tips for manufacturing do. | 17:36 |
| QuantumG | yep, so it sounds like you should be able to graph that over time and define a crossover point where it will become good enough | 17:36 |
| pmetzger | There is also work that was just done at IBM on using a scanning tip on a polymer surface to do surface patterning, though that particular MEMS technique is only good to 1nm at the moment. | 17:37 |
| pmetzger | also the folks at NIST have built a multi-probe gadget using MEMS that is very cool. | 17:37 |
| genehacker | I thought the IBM thing was worse | 17:38 |
| pmetzger | worse than 1nm? | 17:38 |
| QuantumG | so what would you say are the major roadblocks to getting to the M&F toolset? | 17:38 |
| pmetzger | that's pretty course already. | 17:38 |
| pmetzger | QuantumG: the biggest problem is how few people are working on it. | 17:38 |
| pmetzger | with no one working on the problem it will never happen. | 17:39 |
| QuantumG | I'm sure that's the case, but what would you have them work on? | 17:39 |
| pmetzger | How many people are you giving me in theory? :) | 17:39 |
| pmetzger | My answer is different if I have 1 vs 100 | 17:39 |
| pmetzger | and what skills do they have etc. | 17:39 |
| QuantumG | however many you need to imagine and with whatever skills you need to imagine to answer my question | 17:40 |
| pmetzger | we need people skilled at practical SPM work, people who can work on synthesizing initial tooltips using synthetic organic chemistry, people to do better simulations because I suspect there are flaws in the current designs. We need people to work on techniques for attaching tips onto SPMs, control software, initial very simple machines to target... | 17:40 |
| pmetzger | There's an ocean of work. | 17:41 |
| pmetzger | initial designs that can be built with the sorts of tools in question will probably have to be pretty crude diamondoid parts. | 17:41 |
| pmetzger | but that's okay. | 17:41 |
| genehacker | I thought the tooltips were so reactive you couldn't synthesize them using organic chemistry? | 17:42 |
| pmetzger | if charged, they are. but the underlying molecules are pretty common. | 17:42 |
| genehacker | and that organic chemistry wouldn't be "clean enough" for tool tip producution | 17:42 |
| pmetzger | DC10c is an adamantane derivative. | 17:42 |
| QuantumG | so have tips been attached to SPMs successfully already? What sort of tips haven't? What are the challenges there? | 17:42 |
| pmetzger | They've gotten SWCNTs onto the ends of SPMs. that's about it. | 17:42 |
| genehacker | IE, one needs it to work in a high vacuum environment and all the waste products could get in the way? | 17:42 |
| pmetzger | One could probably bootstrap off of those, however. | 17:43 |
| genehacker | that's neat | 17:43 |
| pmetzger | genehacker: imagine that I could synthesize DC10c, attach it using known wet chem techniques to the end of an SWCNT, and then use the other techniques to get it attached to an SPM probe. | 17:43 |
| pmetzger | This is not trivial, but all the parts are understandable technology and nothing is individually overly wild. | 17:44 |
| QuantumG | so here's the hard question: what are the commercial applications of solving all the various problems that need to be solved on the way to productive nanotechnology? | 17:44 |
| pmetzger | no big breakthroughs are required, but is is all messy. | 17:44 |
| pmetzger | QuantumG: you mean, what intermediate products might be achieved that could drive the technology forward? | 17:44 |
| QuantumG | yep :) | 17:44 |
| pmetzger | I dunno. Honestly, I don't. That's one reason I'm not looking to raise VC funding for work. | 17:45 |
| genehacker | so you can make tooltips with other tool tips right? | 17:45 |
| pmetzger | genehacker: that's the idea. | 17:45 |
| pmetzger | closed process = you can make your tools with your tools. | 17:45 |
| QuantumG | what was the SWCNT tooltips used for? | 17:45 |
| genehacker | neat | 17:45 |
| pmetzger | just scanning. nothing that impressive. | 17:45 |
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| QuantumG | are SPMs used for commercial work much currently? | 17:45 |
| pmetzger | a lot. | 17:45 |
| pmetzger | I've visited a few commercial labs where they're in use. | 17:46 |
| QuantumG | what for? | 17:46 |
| pmetzger | Was at ExxonMobil labs once where they were using them for tribology work. | 17:46 |
| pmetzger | weird eh? | 17:46 |
| genehacker | not really | 17:46 |
| pmetzger | they had some very elaborate setups. | 17:46 |
| pmetzger | QuantumG: so what's your background anyway? | 17:46 |
| genehacker | in tribology it helps to figure out the atom loss rate from the material | 17:46 |
| genehacker | to see how effective one's lubrication is | 17:47 |
| pmetzger | lots of people use SPMs these days, AFM is kind of a standard technique now in all sorts of work. | 17:47 |
| QuantumG | well, I'd imagine there's probably commercial applications in there | 17:47 |
| pmetzger | maybe. I'm not an SPM specialist. | 17:48 |
| QuantumG | I assume you know some though :) | 17:48 |
| pmetzger | I have a CS degree, a few years of chem and physics, self taught in mol bio. | 17:48 |
| pmetzger | I know too little about too many things and feel bad about my ignorance. | 17:48 |
| QuantumG | my point of asking this stuff is that, if you're not a socialist, these are the kinds of questions one asks to push the state of the art in the direction they want it to go. | 17:49 |
| QuantumG | (to get back to my original point) | 17:49 |
| pmetzger | I'm not worried about money. I'm worried about brains. | 17:50 |
| pmetzger | not enough human minds and nothing can get done. | 17:50 |
| kanzure | new papers uploaded into that /papers/nanotech/ | 17:50 |
| QuantumG | you're not saying anything contradictory... the way brains is organized in our society is around either socialist-like institutions or around productive commercial work. | 17:51 |
| QuantumG | I, personally, think the productive commercial work produces much more massive change | 17:51 |
| pmetzger | I'm not averse to academic research. It has proven pretty useful in the past. | 17:51 |
| pmetzger | Almost all the work on figuring out how DNA works and decoding the genome etc. happened in academia. | 17:52 |
| pmetzger | academia has some bad aspects but it is good at dealing with very long term research better than venture funded stuff. | 17:52 |
| pmetzger | I had a venture funded company for a while, and I don't mind that path, but it isn't suitable for stuff that is going to take decades to come to full fruition. | 17:52 |
| QuantumG | sure, but at some point this stuff has to get out of academia or it never amounts to anything more than an intellectual curiosity | 17:53 |
| pmetzger | Jim von Ehr tried doing the venture route with Zyvex and he simply couldn't hire enough good people. | 17:53 |
| pmetzger | There aren't enough brains out there at the moment, and the usual way to train new brains these days is via academia. | 17:53 |
| pmetzger | At some point you have to leave academia, but I think it may be early for that. | 17:53 |
| QuantumG | how do you get them to want to dedicate the time to do it though? | 17:53 |
| pmetzger | I decided to get a doctorate specifically so I could do research inside academia. | 17:54 |
| pmetzger | Inside academia, you have lots of dedicated researchers in the form of students. | 17:54 |
| pmetzger | and they get trained and go off and spread your ideas. it is kind of a neat system if you are doing interesting work. | 17:54 |
| pmetzger | If this was 1965 I'd say Bell Labs or the equivalent would be a better place | 17:54 |
| QuantumG | this is why I scoff every time someone at NASA says they are inspiring kids into science and engineering and we need more of those students and blah blah blah.. the truth is, there's more lawyers and doctors than scientists and engineers because lawyers and doctors get paid more. | 17:54 |
| pmetzger | but the old industrial research labs are all dead now. | 17:54 |
| pmetzger | and yet we have lots of scientists and engineers, more than ever before. some people find they like it more. | 17:55 |
| pmetzger | I left much higher paying work to do this because I found it more interesting. | 17:55 |
| QuantumG | great, but you'll admit that it's a terrible choice to have to make | 17:55 |
| kanzure | i lost track of the conversation | 17:56 |
| pmetzger | eh, not really. I'm a lot happier than I was doing my old work. | 17:56 |
| QuantumG | there's no inherit need for happy people to earn less | 17:56 |
| cluckj | it's a hard decision, not necessarily a terrible one to have to make | 17:56 |
| pmetzger | BTW, QuantumG, if you've tried to talk to Ralph at meetings, you have probably learned you can't get much out of him that way. | 17:56 |
| QuantumG | pmetzger: it was worse, I was talking through someone | 17:56 |
| pmetzger | QuantumG: The market chooses to pay certain things at certain levels. It isn't really something that we can change. | 17:57 |
| QuantumG | sure it is | 17:57 |
| pmetzger | We live with things as they are, and one thing that simply "is" is the fact that many researchers don't make much money. | 17:57 |
| pmetzger | But it is a lot more fun than the work you have to do for a Wall Street investment bank. | 17:58 |
| pmetzger | (And yes, I've worked for those.) | 17:58 |
| kanzure | so it sounds like the main problem is finding someone with enough organic chemistry and synthetic chemistry to know how to attach stuff to probe tips | 17:59 |
| kanzure | what about biotyn or streptavidin? | 17:59 |
| kanzure | (my molbio background is showing a bit ;-)) | 17:59 |
| pmetzger | Dunno. They're both pretty flexible molecules, and one wants rigidity, but if there are precise ways to attach them to tips... | 18:00 |
| JayDugger | pmetzger: So how does one become skilled at "practical SPM work?" | 18:00 |
| pmetzger | I'd probably say that attaching things to the ends of CNTs may be easier. | 18:00 |
| pmetzger | though I don't know for sure. | 18:00 |
| pmetzger | JayDugger: the only way to become skilled at anything is to do stuff. | 18:00 |
| pmetzger | build an SPM. :) | 18:00 |
| pmetzger | or get one and play. | 18:00 |
| kanzure | and crash it a lot | 18:00 |
| pmetzger | there is no other way. | 18:00 |
| kanzure | lots and lots of crashing | 18:01 |
| JayDugger | Ha! and my girlfriend already complains about lint and dust. | 18:01 |
| JayDugger | I doubt whether she'll go for that particular tool. | 18:01 |
| pmetzger | an SPM doesn't generate dust. | 18:02 |
| JayDugger | I see DIY STM and AFMs, but not SPMs. | 18:02 |
| JayDugger | I realize that. | 18:02 |
| JayDugger | I don't think she'll like my fussing about vacuum and vibration. | 18:02 |
| kanzure | "stop breathing, damn it woman!" | 18:02 |
| JayDugger | Assuming I built one in her home. | 18:02 |
| cluckj | hahaha | 18:02 |
| JayDugger | A fine follow-on project to a book scanner, I suppose. | 18:03 |
| pmetzger | at Columbia, when the #1 train went by, we could see it on the AFM. :) | 18:03 |
| pmetzger | clearly you should build it at a hacker space. :) | 18:03 |
| JayDugger | Heh. I can see it now. "Oh that? We call it the 'Virgil Perch Spike,' named after the cat jumping onto its cat tree." | 18:04 |
| JayDugger | Agreed. One more argument for $NEWJOB. | 18:04 |
| pmetzger | At ExxonMobil, the best units they had were attached directly to the building foundation | 18:04 |
| pmetzger | though they still had an elaborate cushion system above them. | 18:05 |
| JayDugger | I believe it. Mass damps. | 18:05 |
| pmetzger | at Columbia I think we used an inner tube or something. | 18:05 |
| JayDugger | Too bad houses here (DFW) don't come with basements. | 18:05 |
| pmetzger | Anyway, the only way to make any of this stuff work is to learn stuff and do stuff on your own. | 18:06 |
| JayDugger | And the nearest earth-sheltered house isn't for sale. | 18:06 |
| genehacker | I wonder if record player vibration dampers would work for such a thing? | 18:06 |
| JayDugger | Point taken. | 18:06 |
| pmetzger | genehacker: probably a bit | 18:06 |
| pmetzger | I'm kind of sick of people who talk endlessly and don't do. one of the reasons I now spend as much time as possible doing. | 18:06 |
| pmetzger | like for Damian I designed a way to save about 30% on compute cluster construction by running naked motherboards zip tied between metro shelving wire shelves. :) | 18:07 |
| kanzure | diy transhuman tech @ hplus summit 2010 p1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4ex52LYDe8 | 18:07 |
| kanzure | p2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzUVd0skbc8 | 18:07 |
| genehacker | oh neat the videos are up | 18:08 |
| pmetzger | your presentation and joe jackson's were the ones that gave me the most heart, Bryan. I loved seeing people DOING SHIT. | 18:08 |
| kanzure | thank you, it means a lot to me :) | 18:08 |
| pmetzger | we need a lot more people doing stuff. | 18:08 |
| kanzure | i was worried i didn't have enough ai existentialism in it | 18:08 |
| pmetzger | I'm sick of the "should AIs have rights" talk when we don't know how to do any of this stuff yet. | 18:09 |
| QuantumG | I'm sick of the "I know how to make an AI" talk when the person talking doesn't even know how to code Tetris | 18:10 |
| pmetzger | I'm still kind of amazed at the talk Eliezer Y. gave at Extro 2 or 3 like 15 years ago. | 18:11 |
| kanzure | what was his talk about? | 18:11 |
| pmetzger | He stood up and explained how he was going to make the AI. Then Marvin Minsky stod up and said "we tried all that already and none of it worked" and then EY said "but I'm smarter than you are". | 18:11 |
| kanzure | hahah | 18:11 |
| pmetzger | Well, it has been a decade and a half, still no AI. | 18:11 |
| kanzure | holy fuck, that's totally him | 18:12 |
| kanzure | have you noticed the cult that has formed up around him? | 18:12 |
| pmetzger | Yes. it is hard not to. | 18:12 |
| kanzure | yeah.. | 18:12 |
| pmetzger | I don't dislike him, he's a smart guy. | 18:12 |
| QuantumG | has anyone said that to Goertzel yet? | 18:12 |
| pmetzger | but he should be doing open work etc. | 18:12 |
| kanzure | pmetzger: i really disagree with the whole idea of building an ai first to take over the world to stop some other ai from being first to take over the world | 18:13 |
| pmetzger | AI has improved a lot. Things like the DARPA challenge races are really cool real world results. | 18:13 |
| kanzure | and the general ai-centricism of the singularity institute | 18:13 |
| pmetzger | Bryan: I agree. I don't think it is feasible or desirable. | 18:13 |
| pmetzger | But since I don't think they'll succeed I don't spend much time on it. | 18:13 |
| kanzure | i've been raising VC for taking of the world | 18:13 |
| QuantumG | have I mentioned lately that I'm still waiting for the asshats who are nesting in the OpenCog code to fade away so I can take over that project? | 18:13 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/world_domination.html | 18:13 |
| kanzure | (this is humorous, laugh please) | 18:14 |
| pmetzger | I like parts 2 to 4. | 18:14 |
| pmetzger | reminds me of the underwear gnomes from the simpsons. | 18:14 |
| QuantumG | ?? Profit! | 18:15 |
| cluckj | haha | 18:15 |
| pmetzger | In this case, he makes the case for profit at the start | 18:15 |
| pmetzger | the question is how to achieve it. :) | 18:15 |
| kanzure | a robot army of cockroaches funded by Backyard Brains | 18:16 |
| kanzure | pmetzger: social networking (seriously) http://designfiles.org/~bryan/meetlog/meetlog.txt | 18:16 |
| kanzure | (starts for real in 2009.. the rest is just imported stuff) | 18:16 |
| pmetzger | what is this? | 18:16 |
| cluckj | kanzure is that the thing you showed me at h+? | 18:17 |
| kanzure | it's a log of everyone that i meet with and talk with | 18:17 |
| kanzure | yes | 18:17 |
| pmetzger | neat. :) | 18:17 |
| pmetzger | I'm not that organized. :| | 18:17 |
| QuantumG | 2009-10-02 phone ben goertzel | 18:17 |
| QuantumG | presumably not first meeting though | 18:18 |
| kanzure | nah, not at all | 18:18 |
| kanzure | that was at singularity summit i think? | 18:18 |
| QuantumG | trent waddington: ["diybio", "#hplusroadmap", "iron man 2", "spacex", "person:elon musk", "sharks", "lasers"] | 18:19 |
| QuantumG | hehe | 18:19 |
| pmetzger | I don't think the "we're working on AGI to bring on the singularity" types are going to succeed anyway. | 18:19 |
| pmetzger | I suspect, this is only a suspicion, that the only techniques that will really work involve things EY et co find taboo like genetic algorithms. | 18:19 |
| kanzure | that's basically "we're shaving yaks to bring on the singularity" | 18:19 |
| kanzure | pmetzger: have you noticed all the zen monk figures that show up on his blogs and try to convince him about genetic algorithms? | 18:20 |
| genehacker | genetic algorithms to do what? | 18:20 |
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| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/eli.html is my collection of advice that he ignores | 18:20 |
| genehacker | optimize stuff? | 18:20 |
| pmetzger | evolve brains. | 18:20 |
| genehacker | people already do that | 18:20 |
| pmetzger | I think you can evolve intelligent systems -- after all, we're here -- but I'm not sure you can design them deliberately. | 18:20 |
| genehacker | simple brains | 18:20 |
| genehacker | but nonetheless brains | 18:20 |
| kanzure | genehacker: yeah.. but eliezer thinks GAs don't work | 18:20 |
| pmetzger | bigger computers mean better simulations mean bigger evolved systems. | 18:21 |
| kanzure | or that they are a con | 18:21 |
| genehacker | yeah you can, but it might take a while | 18:21 |
| kanzure | or a scam | 18:21 |
| pmetzger | Eliezer doesn't like them because he can't be sure they'll do what he wants. | 18:21 |
| pmetzger | he wants deliberately designed systems so he can force them to be Friendly. | 18:21 |
| kanzure | Mr. Certainty :P | 18:21 |
| QuantumG | I prefer the people who are just completely disconnected from rational thought.. "I've got this program that simulates a worm really well, we should put it on a million networked computers and then we'll have human AI." | 18:21 |
| pmetzger | an evolved system won't necessarily do exactly what he thinks. | 18:21 |
| pmetzger | no one can simulate a worm very well yet. | 18:21 |
| QuantumG | well, it's pretty easy to convince yourself that you can | 18:22 |
| pmetzger | one should never believe something just because one desperately wants it to be true. | 18:22 |
| QuantumG | I mean, what AI researcher is gunna drive to the bait shop? | 18:22 |
| pmetzger | for example, I have to admit that I may never live to see any of this shit come to fruition, as much as I'd like to. | 18:22 |
| pmetzger | A lot of folks like Kurzweill are convinced they'll live for millenia. Me, I'm not quite so optimistic here. | 18:23 |
| pmetzger | all this stuff *can* work, but I don't know that it will be done. | 18:23 |
| kanzure | pmetzger: also, i have some projects leading up to some stem cell therapy stuff | 18:23 |
| kanzure | http://designfiles.org/papers/longevity/ <-- read this shit | 18:23 |
| pmetzger | Babbage's designs could have worked a century before equivalent stuff was built, but they never got built. | 18:23 |
| JayDugger | What? Since when does "might" have a different meaning than "will?" ;) | 18:23 |
| JayDugger | We like our confused semantics just fine, sir. ;) | 18:24 |
| kanzure | where should i send the youtube links to? | 18:24 |
| kanzure | i feel like i'm forgetting something | 18:24 |
| pmetzger | I'm happy to see people doing stuff. I hope it will lead somewhere. I hope my own work will lead somewhere. I don't know that it will lead somewhere quickly. | 18:24 |
| kanzure | btw you spend all your time on these things, right? | 18:25 |
| kanzure | because so do we.. just not necessarily only on mnt stuff :) | 18:25 |
| kanzure | or at least me | 18:25 |
| pmetzger | I don't spend all my time on it, but more lately. I am getting a degree in a CS department, so I have a bunch of CS stuff I have to do in addition to my MNT stuff. | 18:27 |
| pmetzger | and I consult part time to pay bills. | 18:27 |
| kanzure | i see | 18:27 |
| pmetzger | I expect that after I get a faculty position, I'll get to spend much of my time on bureaucratic crap. :| | 18:27 |
| cluckj | tenure~~~ | 18:28 |
| pmetzger | There is no perfect world. At least I get to do what I want a lot of the time, which I never did before. | 18:28 |
| pmetzger | After you get tenure, you still are on the treadmill. | 18:28 |
| pmetzger | You need money to pay for your students' tuition and stipends, and to buy equipment etc. | 18:28 |
| pmetzger | if you don't publish and don't write proposals you can't get that. | 18:28 |
| cluckj | you're always on the treadmill whatever you do | 18:28 |
| pmetzger | yup. | 18:28 |
| pmetzger | but at least I get to do what I am interested in much of the time. | 18:29 |
| cluckj | yep :D | 18:29 |
| kanzure | are you sure you want tenure? why not just buy cheap equipment | 18:29 |
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| kanzure | or build it | 18:29 |
| kanzure | hi eridu | 18:29 |
| pmetzger | I didn't get a chance to explain my whole deranged plan to you at H+. Some time over beer at some other conference I'll give you the whole spiel. | 18:30 |
| pmetzger | It is long to type it on IRC. | 18:30 |
| kanzure | okay. or over the phone? | 18:30 |
| cluckj | I'm perfectly okay with teaching and doing research | 18:30 |
| pmetzger | kanzure: that will work too. | 18:31 |
| cluckj | and the lifetime paycheck helps, too | 18:31 |
| kanzure | my skype id is 'kanzure' | 18:31 |
| kanzure | tomorrow there's a diyh+/diybio telecon at 6pm EST | 18:31 |
| kanzure | looks like about 20 participants.. | 18:31 |
| genehacker | anychance I could listen in? | 18:32 |
| pmetzger | I'd be interested in doing that myself. | 18:33 |
| kanzure | genehacker: yeah, of course | 18:33 |
| kanzure | once we figure it out the conference method | 18:33 |
| kanzure | we're going to either do tokbox, drop.io, or a telephone dial-in number | 18:33 |
| pmetzger | can't skype do conference bridges? | 18:35 |
| pmetzger | (I've never tried a large one.) | 18:35 |
| kanzure | apparently only up to 5 people? | 18:35 |
| kanzure | me either | 18:35 |
| pmetzger | clearly one needs a VOIP server in a colo. :) | 18:36 |
| genehacker | I not sure if I'll be able to join in, I might have work to do at that time | 18:36 |
| pmetzger | (that's part joke. I've never tried out asterisk or what have you for this.) | 18:36 |
| pmetzger | back tomorrow. If there is a conference thing and I can play fly on the wall I'd like it. | 18:38 |
| cluckj | kanzure do you think you will record the teleconference? | 18:40 |
| eridu | hello kanzure | 18:40 |
| kanzure | cluckj: i'll do a transcript when i'm not talking, but i don't know how to record on any of the systems.. there's tokbox, drop.io, skype, and a dial in number | 18:42 |
| eridu | say, has anyone here implemented/played with one of these? http://feelspace.cogsci.uni-osnabrueck.de/en/index.html | 18:42 |
| kanzure | pmetzger: yeah i've been meaning to use asterisk for a while now.. | 18:42 |
| pmetzger | On OS X, you can use Audio Hijack to record anything. | 18:43 |
| cluckj | ah, okay I just not supposed to record anything until I have IRB approval (ugh), but I can take notes | 18:43 |
| pmetzger | there must be similar stuff on linux etc. | 18:43 |
| pmetzger | google for it to learn what it does. bbl. | 18:43 |
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| QuantumG | if there's an Earth twin exo-planet found this year then I'm gunna have to become a Singularitian because that's faster than I expected. | 19:06 |
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| thesnark | hello | 19:12 |
| kanzure | hi thesnark | 19:12 |
| kanzure | just uploaded the youtoob videos | 19:12 |
| thesnark | Woo! | 19:13 |
| kanzure | part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4ex52LYDe8 | 19:13 |
| kanzure | part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzUVd0skbc8 | 19:13 |
| thesnark | Good, because the stream was not working for me when I tried to watch you =((( | 19:13 |
| thesnark | most prolific communicator =P | 19:14 |
| kanzure | aka "attention whore"? dunno | 19:14 |
| thesnark | No, I don't think people could call you an attention whore | 19:14 |
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| kanzure | genehacker: videos uploaded.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4ex52LYDe8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzUVd0skbc8 | 19:15 |
| thesnark | Attention whores need to communicate constantly but not have anything to say | 19:15 |
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| ybit | heyo, what a busy day | 19:29 |
| ybit | kanzure: did you ever setup a gandi account? | 19:29 |
| Ian_Daniher | kanzure: watching your pres on youtube | 19:32 |
| Ian_Daniher | volume sucks :P | 19:32 |
| * ybit isn't so opposed to the word 'diy' anymore | 19:33 | |
| ybit | the, er, acronym :) | 19:33 |
| thesnark | kanzure that was some enthusiastic cheering at the end...honestly I don't know why - you just gave an overview of your current activities and issues you were facing | 19:38 |
| thesnark | I'm not saying your talk was bad | 19:38 |
| kanzure | i planted them | 19:38 |
| kanzure | that's why. | 19:38 |
| JayDugger | Heh. | 19:38 |
| ybit | :) | 19:38 |
| thesnark | haha | 19:38 |
| ybit | i see diy anything just means non-affiliated with some large institution, which makes me happy | 19:39 |
| cluckj | haha | 19:39 |
| cluckj | planting....pft... | 19:40 |
| * cluckj looks innocent | 19:40 | |
| ybit | kanzure: we need a set time and a live chat room to chat in... | 19:40 |
| ybit | surely everyone there can point their web browsers to webchat.freenode.net and join this channel or the #diybio channel | 19:41 |
| Ian_Daniher | kanzure: rock on. Your talk got the point accross to my friend, sitting next to me, who's not really familiar with the FOSH / DIY / Transhumanism communities. | 19:42 |
| ybit | drop.io gives you a free # to use... nothing special, but it's simple... | 19:42 |
| ybit | you just specify the name of the page and bam, it gives you free web space to share notes, links, images, and voicemail | 19:43 |
| ybit | dunno much about the others | 19:43 |
| Ian_Daniher | +1 to drop.io | 19:43 |
| cluckj | ybit maybe drop.io + tokbox? | 19:43 |
| Ian_Daniher | I've had really good luck with them before | 19:43 |
| ybit | cluckj: yar, thought about that... | 19:44 |
| ybit | never tried tokbox though | 19:44 |
| ybit | though tokbox only allows you to talk with 20 people | 19:44 |
| ybit | my concern with drop.io is the roaming charges.. | 19:44 |
| cluckj | :o | 19:45 |
| ybit | with google voice, i don't have to worry about that.. | 19:45 |
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| kanzure | ybit: i was thinking in here for the conference call, since it's with the transhumanists, OM peeps, and diybio peeps | 19:48 |
| kanzure | yeah, jabber sounds like a good idea.. or we can try doing a large skype call and see if that works | 19:48 |
| kanzure | skype is the common denominator, so we should try that (like right now) | 19:49 |
| kanzure | well, a phone is the common denominator i guess :P | 19:49 |
| ybit | i'm game... | 19:49 |
| ybit | mic doesn't work with skype atm, but i can type | 19:50 |
| ybit | who here wants to try skype now? | 19:50 |
| ybit | cluckj, Ian_Daniher, JayDugger, thesnark | 19:50 |
| cluckj | I don't think I have it installed, hold on | 19:50 |
| ybit | kanzure: | 19:50 |
| kanzure | i'd like to try skype | 19:50 |
| JayDugger | I can't. My commute begins in 10 minutes. | 19:50 |
| ybit | hrm, guess i could get a decent mic before tomorrow instead of using the apple earbuds turned mic | 19:56 |
| JayDugger | Good night, everyone. | 19:58 |
| ybit | gn JayDugger | 19:58 |
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| cluckj | cya | 19:58 |
| kanzure | sso where did that "max 5 callers" thing come from? | 19:58 |
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| ybit | yar | 19:58 |
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| kanzure | http://www.skype.com/intl/en-us/features/allfeatures/conference-calls/ | 19:59 |
| ybit | i recall speaking with ~18 from south america at some point on skype | 19:59 |
| kanzure | south america huh | 19:59 |
| ybit | i was studying spanish.. | 19:59 |
| ybit | learned nothing | 19:59 |
| pmetzger | "Host or participate in free conference calls with up to 25 people. You can include people who are using Skype, and others on phones and mobiles" | 20:00 |
| pmetzger | the limit is 25 | 20:00 |
| kanzure | fuck | 20:02 |
| kanzure | i think we might have more than that | 20:02 |
| kanzure | actually, we'll see. it's good if it goes up to the limit | 20:02 |
| ybit | hrm... | 20:02 |
| cluckj | yes :) | 20:03 |
| cluckj | breaking 25 is kind of a good problem, I guess | 20:03 |
| ybit | suggestion: http://drop.io/diygroups as a backup or some other name | 20:04 |
| ybit | if ~15 are getting screwed because of the number limit, we could try the teleconferencing it offers | 20:04 |
| cluckj | word | 20:05 |
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| kanzure | hi ismarc | 20:15 |
| ismarc | howdy | 20:15 |
| kanzure | ismarc has some thoughts on exoskeleton hydraulic controls | 20:15 |
| kanzure | or valve releases, was it? | 20:15 |
| ismarc | more the sensoring/triggering system for the hydraulics | 20:16 |
| ismarc | The key idea being that generic sensors to determine movement are highly likely to cause physical damage to the recipient without external controls | 20:17 |
| ismarc | the idea is basically lined pockets of fluid that act as highly responsive pressure sensors | 20:17 |
| genehacker | I think that has been done before | 20:17 |
| ismarc | so as the limb increases pressure on one side and reduces on the other, system determines amount of pressure to send, etc. | 20:18 |
| ismarc | and any start of movement too far puts pressure in the opposite direction | 20:18 |
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| ismarc | In my brief searching on it, I couldn't find anything besides descriptions of individual sensors, which kinda surprised me | 20:19 |
| genehacker | it would be better to use such a sensor to sense muscle contraction | 20:19 |
| ismarc | it'd be a lot harder to determine rotation vs. flex type movements on just muscle contraction thought | 20:20 |
| ismarc | err, though | 20:20 |
| genehacker | that's what current exoskeletons do | 20:21 |
| kanzure | rofl http://twitter.com/FakeEliezer | 20:24 |
| kanzure | ahahah | 20:24 |
| kanzure | totally going to follow that | 20:24 |
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| ybit | bahaha, nice find on FakeEliezer | 21:03 |
| ybit | hey danx0r | 21:03 |
| danx0r | hey ybit | 21:03 |
| danx0r | what's up | 21:04 |
| kanzure | i wonder who FakeEliezer is | 21:04 |
| kanzure | i suspect it's pmetzger since he was following the account | 21:04 |
| ybit | danx0r: compiling a list of how many times i've heard someone say they have a plan for a perpetual motion machine | 21:04 |
| danx0r | I had one when I was a teenager | 21:05 |
| kanzure | their perpetual ideas for perpetual motion is a perpetual motion machine, gah | 21:05 |
| danx0r | took me 20 yrs to figure out why it couldn't work | 21:05 |
| kanzure | danx0r: was it a good learning experience? | 21:05 |
| danx0r | and I don't think I'm stupid :) | 21:05 |
| danx0r | yes | 21:05 |
| danx0r | because I knew it had to fail, but I couldn't wrap my head around why | 21:05 |
| danx0r | helped me understand physics better | 21:05 |
| ybit | tat seems to be the exact same for all friends who mention this idea to me | 21:06 |
| ybit | that* | 21:06 |
| danx0r | it was a wheel with magnets, then fixed magnets that would move with cams or some crap like that | 21:06 |
| ybit | hrm, sounds like the same contraption i heard of today | 21:06 |
| danx0r | I still suspect there's some subtle way to use the magnetized state of iron as a battery | 21:06 |
| danx0r | so it would appear to be perp motion but in fact you would increase the entropy by reducing mangetization | 21:06 |
| danx0r | makes sense, right? negative entropy == potential energy | 21:07 |
| danx0r | key would be some non-linearity to grab onto | 21:07 |
| QuantumG | energy density of static magnetic fields isn't exactly high | 21:07 |
| danx0r | QuantumG: sure but it's just the principle | 21:07 |
| danx0r | even if it just kept a pendulum swinging in vacuum for a few hours it would be cool | 21:08 |
| danx0r | and if you don't tell anyone the trick, you could get it on Mythbusters maybe | 21:08 |
| ybit | you too had a pendelum aye? | 21:08 |
| danx0r | well it was a wheel back then, but a pendulum seems more likely | 21:08 |
| danx0r | again to be clear, I realize it isn't actually perpetual ! | 21:08 |
| danx0r | I'm just saying it would be fun to set up a trick machine that was hard to figure out | 21:09 |
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| danx0r | like maybe there's some substance you can interpose between magets, that reduces their field strength? | 21:10 |
| danx0r | so one side of the cycle got a bit more power | 21:10 |
| ybit | danx0r: are you attending the teleconf tomorrow? | 21:12 |
| danx0r | first I heard -- which one? | 21:14 |
| ybit | danx0r: the diy-h+, diybio, openmanufacturing one :) | 21:14 |
| ybit | it's tomorrow around, er.. i think 5pmish, need to double check.. | 21:14 |
| danx0r | sorry, I have to work -- I doubt I can make it | 21:14 |
| danx0r | but send me a link pls | 21:14 |
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| danx0r | that's not my main interest -- more into simulation than DIY physical stuff | 21:15 |
| danx0r | (did do robots for a while tho) | 21:15 |
| ybit | danx0r: 5pm CST | 21:16 |
| danx0r | thx | 21:16 |
| danx0r | I think the real world is too restrictive | 21:16 |
| ybit | simulation aye, you should speak with paul fernhoudt or however you spell his name | 21:16 |
| danx0r | in simulation, I can make perpetual motion machines! | 21:16 |
| ybit | :) | 21:16 |
| danx0r | http://www.kurtz-fernhout.com/ ? | 21:17 |
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| kanzure | 5pm CST, 6pm EST | 21:20 |
| danx0r | actually a good simulator would prohibit perpetual motion just like our Universe | 21:20 |
| danx0r | by doing the right thing wrt energy & the 2nd law | 21:20 |
| ybit | danx0r: that's the guy | 21:20 |
| danx0r | but in general simulations don't always respect that stuff | 21:20 |
| ybit | danx0r: pdfernhout@kurtz-fernhout.com is paul's email, that's his main form of comm | 21:22 |
| ybit | give him an email, i'm sure he would like that | 21:22 |
| ybit | btw, kanzure, did you meet him finally? | 21:22 |
| kanzure | why would paul know anything about simulations for this? | 21:24 |
| kanzure | he doesn't. | 21:24 |
| kanzure | but yeah i met up with him | 21:24 |
| kanzure | he's bottom left: http://designfiles.org/~bryan/hplus-summit-2010/photos/dscn1687.jpg | 21:24 |
| ybit | i don't know what he knows, but i know he prefers simulations | 21:25 |
| ybit | i recognize everyone except for the megan girl | 21:26 |
| kanzure | she hangs out with todd | 21:26 |
| ybit | megan klimen.. /me googles | 21:26 |
| kanzure | todd flies her around to BIL, singularity summit, hplus summit, etc. | 21:26 |
| ybit | if i can't find someone who's been to a ted conf, thinking of going BIL instead | 21:27 |
| danx0r | TED == $6K + invitation | 21:28 |
| danx0r | BIL = $20 + show up | 21:28 |
| danx0r | do the math | 21:28 |
| ybit | TEDx, my apologies | 21:28 |
| ybit | can't have more than a 100 if the organizer hasn't been to a TED conf. | 21:28 |
| kanzure | TED doesn't cost as much if you're giving a talk | 21:28 |
| ybit | figured i'd find someone and make them the official organizer | 21:29 |
| cluckj | one of the profs on my dissertation committee gave a TED talk D: | 21:29 |
| ybit | can he fly to florence, al? ;) | 21:29 |
| kanzure | heh i think the alabama part and the ted part cancel out (KIDDING) | 21:30 |
| ybit | n.n | 21:30 |
| kanzure | leaving just a bunch of hicks, and then ybit | 21:30 |
| kanzure | i'm so mean :( | 21:30 |
| cluckj | hahaha | 21:30 |
| ybit | heh, i actually found someone from the #haskell channel, the guy who formed it here.. he's my co-founder for the hackerspace | 21:30 |
| QuantumG | have you managed to get any output from him? haw haw haw | 21:31 |
| kanzure | >_> | 21:31 |
| ybit | :) | 21:31 |
| kanzure | does he have huge monads? | 21:31 |
| ybit | i'm cracking up over here | 21:32 |
| danx0r | hehe | 21:32 |
| kanzure | http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~robins/YouAndYourResearch.html | 21:33 |
| ybit | kanzure: ready whenever to transfer openmanufacturing.org over to ya | 21:34 |
| ybit | think i've hindered you long enough, just whenever :) | 21:35 |
| ybit | has anyone actually tried this? http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2010/05/observing_the_microscopic_world_usi.html | 21:36 |
| ybit | we had a decent fov, 35x45.5?m is what we measured | 21:36 |
| ybit | from the lens in that vid | 21:37 |
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| ybit | "Twitter is a terrible medium, representative of the short attention span set. Even worse than the garbage that is television." -tweets Michael Anissimov | 21:49 |
| QuantumG | what a loser | 21:50 |
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| jrayhawk | Twitter messages have a higher expected lifespan than IRC messages, so I guess we're even worse than something that's even worse than television...? | 21:56 |
| QuantumG | if everyone on this channel was talking at the same time I probably wouldn't pay any attention to this channel | 21:57 |
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| QuantumG | whereas my twitter feed has >160 people on it, many of whom say at least one thing a day | 21:57 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: i'm guessing steve isn't a big fan of fake EY | 21:58 |
| QuantumG | how do they maintain my attention? By keeping it short and to the point. | 21:58 |
| jrayhawk | I have heard Steve mildly criticise Eliezer on occasion... | 22:00 |
| kanzure | :) | 22:00 |
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| jrayhawk | I'm doubting FakeEliezer is/will be sufficiently carefully considered for Steve to give it any sort of stamp of approval, of course, but that's true of basically everything in the universe. | 22:03 |
| kanzure | maybe steve can send in suggestions | 22:04 |
| jrayhawk | I don't think the 140 character limit would get along with those suggestions. | 22:05 |
| kanzure | hah | 22:05 |
| fenn | kanzure: pretty sure i have a copy of nanosystems, if you would reboot tub | 22:06 |
| kanzure | oh i forgot | 22:06 |
| * kanzure reboots | 22:06 | |
| ybit | s/reboots/performs stability tests | 22:06 |
| kanzure | booting | 22:06 |
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| fenn | omg i can't read all this | 22:20 |
| kanzure | all what? | 22:22 |
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| fenn | the huge backlog | 22:25 |
| fenn | gratz on getting on makezine ybit! | 22:27 |
| kanzure | wasn't that a few months ago? | 22:27 |
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| ybit | thanks fenn, that was ove a month ago | 22:27 |
| ybit | over* | 22:28 |
| ybit | it's decent news for diybio, though i suspect anyone who reads make's blog is already aware of the group | 22:29 |
| fenn | tweaklabs? probably not | 22:30 |
| fenn | there are ~150 hackerspaces | 22:30 |
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| ybit | well, it's SEA Lab now, Science Engineering and Art Lab | 22:31 |
| fenn | boo | 22:31 |
| ybit | with a an inherent mascot: SEAL | 22:31 |
| fenn | afraid of getting raided by a swat team so you decided to taunt the navy instead? | 22:32 |
| ybit | hrm... and Tweaky looks like a meth bird... and tweaking is making meth... :) | 22:32 |
| ybit | so yar :) | 22:32 |
| ybit | but mostly because it's a rip off of twitter | 22:32 |
| ybit | and the name came about after a few beers and puns with the word 'tweak' | 22:33 |
| jrayhawk | window 6 | 22:36 |
| jrayhawk | whoops | 22:36 |
| jrayhawk | I have been cursed with kanzure disease | 22:37 |
| jrayhawk | kanzursed | 22:37 |
| ybit | and it's windows 666, get it right | 22:37 |
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| ybit | i know what all those logos except for the 69 logo? http://arkfab.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/openlab.jpg | 22:39 |
| ybit | 69 + rainbow + swan = ? | 22:39 |
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| jrayhawk | either the apocalypse or a real good time | 23:34 |
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| splicer | I like the iGEM logo | 23:41 |
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