2010-10-29.log

--- Log opened Fri Oct 29 00:00:08 2010
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kanzuremore "take on the machine" video stuff http://www.vimby.com/video/sponsor/us/all/detail/1090800:22
kanzurelight-related fashion items? http://www.romanillumination.com/company.htm00:23
kanzure$150/yard haha no thanks00:24
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fennreprap for tissue engineering?01:51
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archelshttp://www.kickstarter.com/projects/86514518/diy-arduino-eeg02:55
archels^ re-inventing the wheel for the 42nd time02:55
Utopiahthis could be a feature of kickstarter "How is your project different from this other project?" (here http://openeeg.sourceforge.net maybe)02:56
archelsyes, OpenEEG is the first that comes to mind. You can just re-use the analog board and use your own digital board (e.g. Arduino).02:57
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Utopiahcould share the information a lot better but then it could also quickly become less about inefficiency (read "personal fun") and maybe more political (read how you spread the money)03:00
UtopiahI mean if their answer is "well we are not really different, just new" then people would be less willing to giving money but if they say "well we could work with them, set up a network on the topic" then it means money will be shared thus allocated03:01
archelsOpenEEG is about as open as open hardware can get, imho03:01
archelsnot to mention the dozens of other homebrew EEG designs with (partially) open hardware & software.03:02
Utopiahbut since they started sth new, either they didn't know about it (thus telling them would help) or they knew but think they could do sth better, at least different03:02
archelsIt's impossible they didn't know about it, unless they are Google-handicapped.03:03
archelsIt looks like their goal is cheap & simple (I read the word "art" somewhere).03:04
archelsWhich is all good and well, but why they need $1k for that is beyond me.03:04
Utopiahto make marketing (read "knowledge diffusion") to get more money of course03:05
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archelsheh. Their little circuit would probably be $10 cost price at qty 10~20.03:06
Utopiahthey do talk about OpenEEG in the cmment btw03:13
Utopiahand to "4. What exactly is the $1000 for? Can you outline what sort of development and testing you're planning?" they replied "4. Now that we have a working prototype, our next step is cleaning up the board. Through hole soldering so many pieces in close proximity is pretty messy and I'd like the soldering on the final product to be more intuitive"03:14
archelsArtsy types shouldn't be allowed to do electrical engineering, anyway.03:15
archelsThe result is inevitably crap, like the Arduino.03:15
Utopiahright but I dont think they aim at replacing medical brain imaging, rather "democratizing" for any type of purpose especially for people with nearly no EE skilles03:18
archelsWhich would be fine if they just went ahead and did it, instead of asking for $1k for no apparent reason.03:20
Utopiahyou think KickStarter should display in the front page of each project the total of money asked for and blocks representing expected usages?03:22
archelsNo, I'm just ranting about this particular project.03:23
archelsWhat's that old saying again, the only thing more dangerous than a hardware guy with a code patch is a programmer with a soldering iron?03:24
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Utopiah(Guns Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-4008293090480628280#03:54
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killall-9heh! still using batteries to avoid noise in amplifier - did that 20 years ago03:59
killall-9much cheaper than a low noise power supply03:59
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killall-9of couse 20 years ago we didn't had ICs for that - and computers had like 64k of RAM ;-)04:01
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kanzurehttp://rapcad.org/07:23
kanzurehttp://gitorious.org/openscad07:23
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JayDuggerGood morning, everyone.07:28
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kanzuremore videos up http://telexlr8.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/transvision-2010-october-22-24-2010/07:41
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kanzureCall for Book Chapters: FOSS for Sustainable Development in Developing Countries http://webserv.ias.unu.edu/fel/sites/default/files/Call%20for%20Book%20Chapters-FOSS_Sdev.pdf07:42
kanzure(deadline: nov. 5)07:42
kanzurecontact: Sam Kritikos <foomedia@gmail.com>07:42
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kanzureian is adding a python intrepreter to openscad..07:46
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kanzurecool, ed uthman's image got on to the mit.edu front page http://www.mit.edu/08:39
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kanzurexcor/masten interview video http://www.dminuszero.com/post/1374633309/everyday-sci-fi09:09
kanzure"At a recent event in San Francisco, NASA Ames Research Center Director Pete Worden introduced the Hundred Year Starship initiative, a project to embark on a one-way mission from Earth to Mars by 2030 and permanently settle the red planet."09:12
kanzureQuantumG: aren't dennis and pete good friends or something?09:12
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kanzurehttp://beanstalkapp.com/ looks like an alternative to unfuddle/github09:41
archelsHas this been spammed here yet? http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2010-10/ciot-cic102610.php09:46
klafkaooh kristof koch09:47
kanzure"more than 800 people in the pilot stage of the so-called 1,000 Genomes Project, which aims to complete 2,500 sequences by the end of 2012 at a cost of $120 million."09:57
kanzurewait, it's hosting how much?09:57
kanzure*costing09:57
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klafkawhat ever happened to the 5,000 genome10:15
fenni don't get the whole "hundred year starship" thing10:17
fennfirst of all, it doesn't take 100 years10:17
fennsecond, why can't they return? huh? too hard to shovel some ice into your nuclear rocket's tanks?10:18
fennthird, nuclear rockets? 10:18
fenn"What the hell is NASA and the international space programme doing asking the public for handouts?"10:19
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kanzurefenn: some people have been telling me to approach pete worden with some stuff.10:36
kanzureturns out i've been facebook buds with pete for a few years now10:37
fennhe is probably getting his inbox slammed right now what with all the media attention10:38
kanzureso, dennis wants to melt down some moon rock/ore at the ames campus and demonstrate a simple machine tool10:39
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kanzureit's not on the top of his priorities list but if someone showed up and said "i'll do that" he'd like that very much10:39
fenn"No bucks, no Buck Rogers!"10:40
kanzureoh please10:40
kanzuresince when10:40
fennyeah well supposedly they hired worden because of his reputation of getting things done cheaply10:41
kanzurestory time! tell me tell me10:41
fennuh, based on my five minute google search10:42
kanzureyou suck at stories :(10:42
fennhttp://www.thespacereview.com/article/612/110:42
fenn"Worden is an innovator and a risk-taker whose record shows that he can accomplish difficult goals without depending on massive funding."10:42
fennwho is dennis?10:42
fenni'd love to melt down some moon rock10:43
kanzurethis would require a few trips to mountain view10:43
kanzuredennis is http://google.com/search?q=dennis+skycorp10:43
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fennit'd be cool to make some kind of SLS machine out of a solar concentrator and moon dust10:52
kanzurehe agrees11:02
fennhow do you know dennis? and talking now?11:09
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* fenn reads about solar pumped lasers11:10
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kanzurefenn: via QuantumG 12:01
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kanzurejrayhawk: how would piny handle 2M to 2.3M repos?12:39
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kanzure"john lewis on asteroidal resources" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYaf2ZE6LvY12:57
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kanzurejrayhawk: i meant million, not megabytes12:59
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jrayhawkooh, good question. I *think* everything is at least 32-bit.13:19
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kanzureno that's not what i'm asking13:21
kanzurescalability, etc.13:21
jrayhawkIt wouldn't be particularly performant, but it would be doable. If you wanted this to happen fairly immediately, there'd be issues to work out.13:22
kanzureyeah.. elevenarms wasn't happy when i told him about piny/perl :P13:24
kanzureso he was asking about scalability13:24
kanzurehm.13:24
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jrayhawkThat said it's not like the storage architecture is obscure, so it's not like they can't yoink everything and do it better elsewhere.13:26
kanzurethis is stupid.. let me get him in here13:26
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jrayhawkI'll be disappearing for 20 minutes or so.13:28
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kanzureokay.13:29
kanzurejblake: he'll be around in a few minutes13:29
kanzureuh. 30.13:29
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kanzurehi jburk 13:31
jburkhowdy13:31
kanzureany MITRE updates? :D13:31
jburki dont know very much about that13:32
kanzureoops i'm thinking of jim bark13:33
kanzurehaha13:33
kanzureok, well, how about marshome.org updates13:33
jburknp13:34
jburkwhat do you want to know13:34
kanzurejust if there's anything new :)13:34
jburkyeah a lot going on with it13:35
jburkwe have a site in CA which we are planning to build a mars analog research center13:35
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kanzurejburk: know anything about the one in the attacama?13:36
jburka little13:36
kanzuresame idea?13:36
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jburkthat one is more desert and has university involvement there.  i think it will be multi-use site, whereas the one in CA is only marshome.org13:37
kanzureso are you deploying equipment?13:37
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jburkwe are doing site planning now but yes in 201113:38
kanzurecool. i've been talking with some people interested in doing some automated manufacturing planning (for mars/moon stuff) ala 13:38
kanzurehttp://www.islandone.org/MMSG/aasm/13:39
jburkhaha same here13:39
jburkthat will be a component of our stuff including teleoperation13:39
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jburkteleoperation of robots to build/develop the base is one of the features of the marshome.org engineering plan for 1st human settlement13:40
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jburkand the analog research center will be structured around those same topics/themes13:41
jburkmyself i am also working on an iphone game13:41
jburkthink a game version (like farmville or pizza parlor) of building the base or teleoperating rovers on moon/mars13:42
kanzurewhy teleoperation- what about autonomous manufacturing?13:42
jburkright13:42
kanzureyeah, there's been some community suggestions of mmo simulations13:42
kanzurerealistic simulations poised as a game or something13:42
jburkthe mars colony online one is still going on, howard deutsch13:42
kanzuremaybe using freecity (the sims clone) or something13:43
kanzurelinks?13:43
jburkhyperkatgames.com\13:43
kanzurei might be interested in doing some programming13:43
jburksorry http://www.hyperkat.com/MarsOnline.html13:43
kanzure(or machining)13:43
jburkyeah if you know objective c or the iphone sdk i could use some help LOL13:43
jburkthat goes for anybody else reading this 5 days from now LOL - email me at jburk at 43tech.com13:45
jblakei know haskell and have written microcontroller code to manage CDMA radios, does that help13:45
jburkwell go download the xcode stuff and play around with it, email me in a few days :)13:46
kanzurei don't see what mars online has to do with iphone apps13:47
jburkit doesnt you mentioned mmo13:47
kanzurealso you should just make it javascript/html5 and not bother with platform-specific code13:47
kanzurejburk: another 12min. sorry for the lag.13:48
kanzureoops13:48
jburkthats a good suggestion13:48
kanzurejblake: another 12min. sorry for the lag.13:48
jrayhawknow i am sad i do not have a secondary name starting with b13:49
jrayhawki feel all left out13:49
jblakeIt's really tempting to see if I can throw together a simple city simulator in HTML5+JS13:49
kanzurejoe brutus rayhaawk13:49
jblakejrayhawk: jbutthead13:49
jburkoh man13:50
kanzurejblake: didn't sim city go open source at the end of its life?13:50
jblakeoh, probably13:50
kanzureJayDugger: can you /nick jdugger for a few minutes?13:50
jrayhawkthere are a bunch of existing open source sim-games13:50
jrayhawkjbugger13:50
jrayhawkmost of which are more sophisticated than sim city anyway13:51
jburkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_open-source_video_games13:51
kanzurejrayhawk: the idea has been (for a while) to do a simulator with skdb data13:51
kanzure"you just upgraded to vertical milling machine stations! woo"13:52
kanzureor "error: you must first forge the metal"13:52
jrayhawkAh, so Civilization 6: Your Garage13:53
jrayhawkoh no, a wandering barbarian13:53
jrayhawkthe barbarian is impressed by your technological advancement and agrees to become your flunky13:53
jburkever play buzz aldrins race into space13:54
kanzurewas that a real game?13:54
jburkyeah13:54
jburkdos era13:54
jburkits online13:55
jblakeFeh, HTML5 canvas doesn't appear to have the kind of expressive power that cairo has. Dealing without clipping regions is just too painful to be worthwhile.13:55
jburkWOW somebodys doing an open source of that http://sourceforge.net/projects/raceintospace/13:56
jburki should just join that LOL13:56
jburk"hey everybody, want to do an iphone version?"13:57
* kanzure pokes elevenarms13:57
archelscompletely off-topic http://iwdrm.tumblr.com/13:59
kanzuretimothyschmidt: ping14:02
jblakethis is the most productive conversation i've had about piny in /weeks/14:08
kanzurei just called him, he's jumping in :/14:08
kanzurebasically elevenarms' concern is about scalability for hundreds of thousands of repos14:08
kanzureand that flatfile hosting might not do the trick here14:08
kanzurehe'll probably recommend nosql as a solution14:09
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jblakethere are some administrative concerns with that many repos; a few operations like repo creation have global side effects that you'd probably want to batch and consolidate14:09
kanzurefor instance, if we were using piny for github14:09
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kanzurehi elevenarms14:10
elevenarmshello all14:10
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elevenarmskanzure catch me up14:10
kanzureso, you were suggesting a database solution for scalability14:10
kanzurejblake and jrayhawk work on a project called piny, it's basically a project management solution for git hosting14:10
elevenarmslink?14:10
kanzurehttps://secure.piny.be/cgit/piny-web.git/14:10
kanzurehttp://piny.be/piny-code/architecture/needed_user_facing_infrastructure/14:11
jrayhawkhttp://piny.be/piny-code/architecture/needed_user_facing_infrastructure/ has the best description of what it'll look like14:11
jrayhawkto users, anyway.14:11
jblakeit's really depressing that the list of things i haven't done yet is the definitive "this is piny" webpage :-(14:11
kanzureso anyway,14:11
kanzurethe idea is that a thingiverse/github clone would have to host a lot of repos14:11
elevenarmsI'm concerned with hosting thousands of git repos14:12
kanzureand that this would run into scalability issues14:12
kanzureok even that14:12
jblakeWhat sorts of scalability issues are you thinking of?14:12
elevenarmshow/where will they be stored14:12
kanzureaccess times, especially into revision history14:13
elevenarmswhat would the directory structure look like14:13
elevenarmsperhaps http://github.com/blog/606-announcing-ernie-2-0-and-2-114:13
jrayhawkI think cgit is the only thing that attempts to do operations based on every repo; that might have to be modified extensively.14:13
streetydoesn't github blog extensively on their infrastructure?  won't man of the same solutions work for thingiverse?14:14
kanzurecgit: http://hjemli.net/git/cgit/about/14:14
jblakeAt large scales, we'd probably have the repos on a SAN exported over NFS to the frontend machines, and just organized by partial name if we're concerned about the size of dentries.14:14
kanzurestreety: we're not the developers of thingiverse. i'm building a better thingiverse14:14
jblakePiny doesn't do anywhere *near* as much work as github does at the moment.14:14
kanzurestreety: there's a lot of things wrong with thingiverse, blah blah blah14:14
streetyfair enough but the same point applies14:15
kanzuresure, but if joe and jules want to provide some development work towards that, then why not take it?14:15
kanzuregitorious too14:15
kanzureok so anyway14:15
jblakeAs it stands, I suspect we could probably host in the tens-of-thousands of git repos from a single machine; once a repo is created there's essentially no global work that needs to be done and only the most trivial local work to host it.14:16
jblakeAdministrative tasks would start getting painful at that scale, but we have plans to remove the bits that would be causing problems anyway.14:17
jblake(The largest limiting factors afaik would involve some steps that recreate large config files during repo creation/deletion)14:18
jrayhawkpasswd/shadow/group/gshadow et. al can be moved into a bdb14:18
jblakeAnd the apache/cgit/ikiwiki stuff should all be moving to .d style configs, anyway.14:19
kanzurehttp://develop.github.com/14:19
jblakecgit or ssh would probably be the main consumers of cpu time at that scale, but those both scale horizontally.14:20
jrayhawkI already moved cgit to a new model.14:20
jblakeOh, excellent.14:20
elevenarmsI think the github api is the way to go14:20
elevenarmsif were talking foss hardware, solving the project metadata problem is a greater issue14:21
jblakeIntroducing an API like that would probably cost a lot of CPU and make scalability significantly harder than what we have now. Do you have a big use case for API access to the repos?14:21
jrayhawkApache might be a bit of a problem, actually. We've got a fair amount of per-project configuration that I'm not sure Apache would be happy to traverse on every request.14:22
elevenarmsare you talking about adding an api to piny?14:22
jblakeIt caches its configuration in memory, doesn't it?14:22
kanzurejblake: elevenarms is talking about writing a website that uses the github api instead of hosting git stuff on its own14:22
jblakeOh, OK.14:22
jrayhawkI'm not interested in getting involved in walled-garden development.14:23
jrayhawkI'm sure it wouldn't be hard to make something useful in that ecosystem, though, so have at :)14:23
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kanzurein terms of development time, it is probably faster to just use ready-made solutions, and then replace the bits with custom solutions14:26
kanzurewell, actually, it could go either way14:26
kanzurejblake: why are you guys not using gitorious?14:27
jblakeIt's git. You can just start hosting anywhere now and move around later.14:27
kanzurehttp://gitorious.org/14:27
kanzurehuh?14:27
kanzurei don't think you understand what the github api lets you do14:27
kanzureelevenarms is talking about using that api so that they solve the scalability issues for you14:27
kanzure(which, they have, somehow)14:28
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kanzurehttp://gitorious.org/gitorious14:28
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jblakeWell, a big claim here is that there isn't really a huge scalability problem inherent in just hosting ikiwikis and git repos; static file hosting has been a solved problem for ages.14:29
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jblakeThere *is* a scalability problem with doing things like searching across repos and other "big" dynamic tasks.14:30
jblakeBut piny isn't currently targetting that at all. It's interesting if you guys have a strong use case for that, though, because that will give us some good input on what direction piny wants to move in.14:30
kanzurehuh gitorious hosts all of their repos in /gitorious/repos and they store metadata stuff in mysql14:31
jrayhawkThey're very interested in categorizing and aggregating information from all repos, but that's the closest thing they've got to dynamic that I've heard so far.14:31
jrayhawkAnd that's really just a minutely update rather than true dynamicism.14:32
jrayhawkor, rather, something that is just as well served by being accurate to 60 seconds as it is by being fully dynamic.14:32
jblakeAs long as the kinds of queries would be known ahead of time you could probably get away with post-updates that manage an index and arrange for updates after each commit. That'd get you better than 60 seconds without involving any dynamic work at all.14:33
kanzurei'm not sure how many commits/sec that would handle though14:34
kanzurei guess you'd hit that same problem elsewise14:34
kanzureis gitorious using their own custom git daemon?14:34
kanzurethey say they store their repos in /gitorious/ and to clone their src it's git clone git://gitorious.org/gitorious/mainline.git gitorious14:34
kanzureso clearly they are doing at least some funky url rewriting for git paths14:35
kanzurewell, i guess if you ran into scalability with commits/sec problems with the post-commit hooks, you can just use post-commit hooks to add work to a queue on some server, and then just work through the queue as fast as possible14:35
jblakeYeah, managing large indexes like that is a relatively well-studied problem.14:36
jblakeAnyway, I'm mostly concerned with more precisely what you would want to aggregate over and what kinds of github/gitorious features (like the social network) y'all are interested in? Those are really a dominating concern when it comes to scalability.14:39
jrayhawkIt'd be nice if Apache had something similar to Exim's embedded Perl so we could make the configuration stuff fully dynamic. It's really all defined by just one variable, the name of the repo, and 9 lines of templated configuration based on that variable.14:40
jblakeWe might just want to ditch apache at some point for a lighter server, anyway.14:41
jrayhawkThat'd be hard; I don't think anything else supports the PAM user and group nonsense.14:41
kanzurejblake: having a list of friends (and comparing lists to find mutual friends) is definitely something worth doing, but updating a list of friends isn't hard14:41
jblakeWell, in comparison to what we're doing now, updating a list of friends would be literally the hardest thing piny does.14:41
kanzureso user profile data would have to be stored somewhere14:42
kanzurepresumably ikiwiki has a user page??14:42
jrayhawkWhat would 'friends' do?14:42
kanzurethat's not quite the same thing14:42
kanzurejrayhawk: appease people14:42
jrayhawkNo seriously.14:43
jblakeJoe: We could do a mod_piny that virtualizes the configuration over all possible repos without too much trouble.14:43
kanzureit's kind of like tags for figuring out what activity feeds to aggregate and show the user14:43
jrayhawkOh, so it'd just be an RSS system. Hmm. That's interesting.14:43
jblakeAh, "activity feeds", another hard thing we don't do.14:43
jblakeAt least, per-user feeds. Per-repo is trivially easy.14:43
kanzurewell yeah, these things are p. simple in a "dynamic" website (well, simple to implement quickly.. perhaps not immediately scalable)14:43
kanzureupdating every single static feed page for each user subscribed to a particular project, just sounds like it's going all backwards14:44
kanzureinstead of pulling the feeds when requested14:45
jblakeEh. Commits happen much less often than pageviews.14:45
kanzurei.e. you can imagine 500k users on github that subscribe to 20 projects each; only 10% of those users might actually ping their RSS feeds, or even log in14:45
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jblakeWith feeds I suppose you get weird numbers like that. Eh. You'd still want to build the per-repo feeds statically and just aggregate on demand, which preserves locality of dynamism.14:47
jrayhawkThe user feeds are a little weird, though, because there's only a handful of things you can reliably track.14:49
jblakeWe don't really track committers at all. I'm not sure where we'd do that, we'd probably have to introduce some kind of a database. Ugh.14:49
kanzureon github you track (via your feed): your friends' actions (not their entire feeds), projects you own/commit to, projects you watch14:50
jrayhawkTracking committers is just stupid; I don't think that will ever be done.14:50
jblakeI think that's what he's asking for with "your friends' actions" though.14:50
jrayhawkEven github can't really do that, they can just make a note of who pushes when.14:50
jblakeOh, that's easier.14:50
kanzurewhat can't they do?14:50
kanzure*what can't github do?14:51
jrayhawkCommits are orthogonal to user identity; at no point does a user need to be associated with Piny in order to commit; only to push.14:51
kanzurecan't you sign a commit with your public key?14:51
jblakeSure, but that doesn't have anything to do with piny.14:52
jblakeYou can do whatever you want to your commits.14:52
kanzurewell, github keeps a copy of your public key14:52
kanzureit sometimes links commits to actual users14:52
jrayhawkGithub keeps a copy of your public *ssh* key.14:52
jrayhawkFor purposes of giving you a transport to push over.14:52
kanzureactually maybe it's just doing a username string match ("hurr we seem to have a 'kanzure' let's link to him")14:53
jrayhawkUnless they have a hook that rejects unsigned commits that I don't know about.14:53
jrayhawkThat'd be a good idea, though.14:53
kanzurebut they aren't actually doing that for feeds14:53
jblakeAnd I think it's only doing committer-to-user association heuristically, yeah.14:53
kanzurefor feeds you primarily watch kanzure/some_repo not "all some_repos"14:53
jblakeby which you mean "watch all pushes to the repo named kanzure/some_repo", yes?14:54
kanzurehttp://github.com/kanzure unless you're me and you're crazy and just watch everything14:54
kanzuresort of- it really just means "tell me anything about the github status feed of kanzure/some_repo" which might be commits, but might also be "so-and-so forked this project"14:55
kanzure(github only knows about forks when you click "fork" of course..)14:55
jblakeWhatever. So the repo knows how to build a feed for itself, and then the feed you consume is just the sum of several such feeds.14:56
kanzurei think the link i just dropped is fairly informative14:56
kanzureyeah14:56
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jrayhawkugh, web-based rss sure is awful14:57
jrayhawkrss readers, that is14:57
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kanzuregoogle reader? (i haven't tried it)14:57
jblakeOK, so that's nice because we can do that sum dynamically and still have no side effects. That kind of aggregation wouldn't be hard to scale. Generating the feed for each repo - doing a per-commit feed is trivial, per-push isn't much harder. I don't think we're interested in a "fork button" at this point, are we Joe?14:57
kanzurebah fine, quit with a timeout14:58
kanzurei think a "fork" would be important for people who (1) have soemthing to contribute and (2) don't know how to do git clones on their own computer14:58
kanzure(joe might remember some talk about that sort of use scenario from the other day)14:58
kanzuregee i should write a spec.. thing.14:59
jblakeEven after forking you'd still have to clone it to actually do work.14:59
jrayhawkThe 'fork' button is something I'm fine with and wouldn't be very hard to implement.14:59
kanzure"fake fork"- wouldn't complete until the user actually provides a new set of diffs or whatever :P14:59
kanzure(i'm half joking; i fork a lot of crap on github without updating it, so it's just sitting around)14:59
jrayhawkThat's hard for us and storage is cheap, so whatever.15:00
kanzure*shrug*15:00
jrayhawkAnyway, the fork button would be something like newrepo, turn off denynonfastforwards, clone origin, force push new, delete clone.15:00
jblakeIf we get desperate for storage we'll just start unifying the object stores. But that's not worth considering for another few million repos.15:01
jrayhawkand turn back on denynonfastforwards15:01
jrayhawkWe already would need to sort out automated temporary clones in order to do the big dumb 'upload zip file' function.15:01
kanzurefor hardware, these repos are probably going to be large :/ especialy since most users are going to be committing dumb stuff15:01
jblakeIf the repo doesn't have any commits you can push anything you want. We shouldn't need to mangle denynonfastforwards for that.15:01
jrayhawkOh, yeah, I guess that's true.15:02
kanzurehey so uh writing down this stuff is kinda important15:02
kanzurehow do i turn this into a spec so i don't forget15:02
jrayhawkOur default action is to have a dumb commit just so Ikiwiki has something useful to clone.15:02
kanzures/so i don't forget/so joe doesn't forget/15:02
jblakeYou can generate commits against piny-web if you want, and just send-patch them to us.15:02
kanzureyes but if i was to do that what would i write15:03
jrayhawkOr you can create a user and we can add you to piny-code15:03
jblakeOr you can just count on the fact that I think all three of us are archiving this conversation.15:03
kanzurearchives are a bad way to store specs15:03
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jrayhawkNot that we've really specced anything. 'graft awful web rss reader system to piny user database' seems to be it.15:04
kanzureelevenarms: http://gnusha.org/logs/2010-10-29.log for stuff you missed15:05
jblakeActually generating the RSS feeds is more important.15:05
jrayhawkI'll go add 'fork button' and 'upload button' to user-facing infrastructure, though.15:05
kanzurejrayhawk: also the "ability for site admin to update the front page and overall layout/themes" thing.15:05
jblakeWe need per-repo feeds for commits and pushes, and per-user feeds for pushes, which means we need per-user information stores and some code to catch pushes and manipulate said store.15:06
jrayhawkper-repo feeds are already done by Ikiwiki15:06
jrayhawkOr by cgit15:06
kanzurealso the cgit/ikiwiki integration 15:06
jblakeAre those feeds commits or pushes or both?15:06
kanzureboth15:06
jrayhawkCommits.15:06
jrayhawkNot pushes.15:06
kanzureok fine15:06
kanzurebut also stuff like "user x started watching project y" and "forked project y"15:07
jblakeBecause it sounds like kanzure is expecting pushes if he wants it to be like github.15:07
jblakeugh i have a fairly strong aversion to "started watching"15:07
jblakereally not looking forward to solving the social networking problem15:07
kanzureit's a solved problem i thought :P15:08
jrayhawkNo, there are a lot of complicated social issues, like privacy.15:08
jrayhawkThe way to solve it is to fuck metametadata15:08
jrayhawkIf someone wants to provide that elsewhere, they can go ahead.15:08
kanzurewell, access controls on individual repos would be nice i guess15:10
kanzurei.e., a list of allowed users to view a repo, public/private repos15:11
jblakeGot those for commits, but everything is always readable at the moment.15:11
jrayhawkYeah, that's already on the TODO list.15:11
jrayhawkThat's why, for instance, as you asked earlier, cgit is under https://15:12
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kanzurejrayhawk: adding me to piny-web, piny-code, piny-shared would be hawt.15:23
jrayhawkYou'll have to createuser@piny.be if you want to edit them directly.15:24
kanzurewhat?15:24
kanzurei don't have ssh access on piny.be15:24
jrayhawkThat's why you ssh createuser@piny.be15:25
kanzurehrm.15:25
kanzurezerosignal.nl?15:25
kanzureLast login: Fri Oct 15 03:46:06 2010 from zerosignal.nl15:25
jrayhawkha ha whoops, that's a privacy mistake15:25
kanzuream i able to set up my own authorized_key or does piny still need you to do that15:26
jrayhawkreadkeys, writekeys, appendkeys15:26
kanzureyay15:26
jrayhawkI do not recall whether I actually tested appendkeys.15:27
kanzurea list of allowed commands upon login to pinyshell would be cool in the future too15:28
jrayhawkoh yeah, help system. Good idea.15:28
kanzure"man addaccess" fails15:29
jrayhawkI just added you to those.15:30
kanzurels /srv/git/<tab tab tab> works, but ls doesn't work15:30
jrayhawkHmm. I should turn tab completion off.15:31
jrayhawkwell, for arguments.15:31
jrayhawkCommand completion is still useful.15:31
jblakeThere is a manpage for addaccess?15:31
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jblakeI wonder why that didn't work for you.15:31
kanzure"man addaccess" works on gnusha for me15:31
jrayhawkHe's on pinyshell, he can't man anything15:31
kanzureprobably because 'man' doesn't work15:31
jblakeOh, feh.15:32
jblakeWe should probably add man to the safe commands.15:32
kanzureafraid i'll start readin' and lurnin'?15:32
jrayhawkEhhh. We'd need to restrict pagers as well.15:32
jblakeI think both less and more just use whatever your $SHELL is.15:32
jrayhawkless has 'log to file', though.15:33
jblakeoh yeah, feh15:33
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kanzurewhat is the difference between piny-web, piny-shared and piny-code15:33
jblakeI've been wondering that myself.15:33
jrayhawkPiny-web was supposed to be about the hosting itself, piny-code is the engine, and piny-shared is a repository full of static resources other repositories need.15:34
kanzureuh, what?15:34
jblakeAnyway, man without a pager is still reasonably useful.15:34
kanzuresounds like piny-web should be web/ in piny-code.git15:34
jrayhawkI have not done much to piny-web, I need to refactor how piny-shared works.15:34
jrayhawkWell, piny-code is an orthogonal concept to piny-web. Anyone can deploy piny-code.15:35
kanzurethen why does piny-code and piny-web both have architecture/*15:35
jrayhawkThat was a throwback to when I was documenting piny-code in piny-web because I am a bad person.15:36
kanzurei still don't see how piny-web shouldn't be in piny-code15:36
kanzurepiny-web would be the project website describing piny-code, right?15:36
jrayhawk'piny' is an overloaded concept that I might need to split.15:37
kanzurepiny.be is an instance of the piny codebase15:37
jrayhawkAt the moment piny is both the hosting service at http://piny.be/ and the engine driving the hosting service, piny-code.git15:37
kanzurehttp://piny.be/ looks like it's piny-web.git15:37
jrayhawkThat's correct.15:38
kanzureright.. so when you deploy piny-code.git it would make sense to me for it to be a copy of piny.be15:38
kanzureand then you just set it up however you want for whatever you're hosting15:38
jblakepiny-code is easily amenable to being packaged as something a distro might ship. piny-web isn't.15:39
kanzurehuh? wouldn't you just put into the .deb package-creation-script to ignore web/ in piny-code or something15:39
jblakeSo you could apt-get install piny-tools for example and get the interesting bits of our infrastructure without completely taking over your system.15:40
jrayhawkBut piny-web is specific to my hosting service. That's the point.15:40
jrayhawkNot that it matters much at this point since I haven't put anything into it.15:40
kanzureit just seems a little weird for piny to not be hosting piny.15:41
jrayhawkPiny is two concepts.15:41
jrayhawkPerhaps I should rename the engine to lolgit15:42
jrayhawkAnyway, you're free to put whatever wherever and we can argue about it if I manage to care enough to complain at you.15:43
kanzurethree repos just doesn't make sense to me :P15:43
kanzureanyway, how about piny-shared?15:44
jrayhawkif it makes you feel better we can redirect / to piny-code/ until I feel like developing piny.be-the-hosting-service more thoroughly.15:44
jrayhawkPiny-shared is a bunch of static files Ikiwiki and cgit currently need to operate. I may or may not continue using it depending on some other stuff I need to decide.15:45
jrayhawkIf you were to want to make a pretty layout or something you could shove it in piny-code.15:46
jrayhawkpretty CSS layout15:46
kanzuremaybe you could give me a tour of piny-code/ and why there's an etc/ and usr/ (i've looked at them and know what's in there, but not why)15:47
kanzurelike why usr/src/ instead of just src/15:47
jblakejoe is bad at organizing repos15:48
jblakeusr used to be even worse before i attacked it15:48
kanzuregreat.15:48
jblake(it was originally a partial filesystem snapshot, but has been gradually migrating into real packages)15:49
kanzuresigh15:49
jrayhawkBuildable packages are in /usr/src, anything that hasn't made its way into the buildable packages (because Jules it too lazy to work out how to use debconf to do everything we want, for the most part) lives outside of /usr/src15:50
jblakeSome of the stuff in etc, for example, is config files which belong to packages I don't control, so it's sort of a pain to make policy-compliant packages for them.15:51
kanzurethis is all awful15:51
jrayhawkhaha15:51
jrayhawkyou can git mv usr/src src if it makes you feel better15:51
jblakesrv/templates probably needs to get packaged to live somewhere in /usr/share but I haven't really decided who should own it, yet.15:52
jrayhawkWe should really relocate all the /srv stuff anyway.15:52
kanzurei'm not really sure how to reorganize this productively. i'd probably move libpiny and pinyadmin to the top-level15:52
jblakeBasically everything else in that repo should probably get moved to a doc directory now that we supposedly will support those properly.15:52
jblakeYeah, toplevel with pinyadmin and libpiny and doc and maybe one or two other debian packages is sort of where I'd like to head in the long term.15:53
jblakeIt also probably needs some smarts to build webpages from the generated manpages in pinyadmin, which is going to be all kinds of ugly and I'm none too excited about.15:56
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kanzurejblake, jrayhawk: ok i pushed16:02
kanzurehttp://piny.be/piny-code/architecture/needed_user_facing_infrastructure/16:02
kanzurethis file is awful16:03
kanzurehrm.16:03
jblakeI agree. I hate that file.16:03
jrayhawkStill more graceful than actual html tables!16:03
kanzurethese tables are stupid16:04
jrayhawkBut yes, basically dumb.16:04
jblakeIt's ugly and a constant reminder of my failures of motivation.16:04
kanzureuhuh16:04
kanzurewhat's with having to have .mdwn to all of these files16:04
kanzurewhat's wrong with plaintext16:04
jrayhawkMarkdown is more flexible once you get used to it.16:05
kanzurei'm also not happy about issues/16:05
kanzurejrayhawk: what distributed bug system does fossil-scm use?16:05
jrayhawkfossil16:05
jrayhawkfossil is entirely self-contained for ease of deployability.16:06
jblakehence we can't easily use it16:07
kanzuretoo bad bugseverywhere doesn't believe in releases16:07
jrayhawkI can whip issues into better shape for you if you'd like.16:07
kanzurei should submit that as a bug to them16:07
kanzurejrayhawk: i don't trust you with repos any more16:07
kanzureat least, structuring them well16:08
jrayhawkWell, you don't really know what Ikiwiki's bug tracking looks like at this point, so someone should probably give you an example.16:08
kanzurehmm16:08
kanzureokay fine16:08
jblakeCan you get away with showing his Cas's tracker?16:08
jblakeEh, I guess ikiwiki's may be a better example, anyway.16:09
jrayhawkNo, cas's is definitely more sophisticated than ikiwiki.git's16:09
jrayhawkDoes PSAS do something trackery?16:09
jblakeI doubt it. Andrew would know better than I.16:09
jrayhawkeh, I may as well just do it here.16:10
kanzurei wish the "clear" command was hooked up to a shocker so that every time i needlessly clear my terminal i get shocked16:11
jblakecontrol-L is faster, by the way16:11
kanzureyou're not helping16:12
jblakesure i am; this way it doesn't clutter your .bash_history!16:12
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jblakealso contributes less to carpal tunnel16:12
kanzurewhat is ikiwiki's built-in bug tracker and why should you use it over BE?16:13
kanzureand why aren't the todo/features/wishlists/issues in a bug tracker16:13
jrayhawkI'M WORKING ON IT JEEZ OKAY GOD YOU ARE SUCH A SLAVEDRIVER16:13
jblakei think while joe is being productive i'm going to go play a game involving zombie cowboys16:14
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kanzurehi wolfspraul 16:31
kanzurewolfspraul: i was wondering, how did you finance ben nanonote?16:31
kanzure"how to build your own UAV for $300" http://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/diy/robots-podcast-diy-drones16:33
kanzurethis article doesn't have anything new in it, but the title is relevant IMHO http://blog.databazaar.com/2010/10/will-the-open-source-hardware-movement-bring-you-a-free-printer.html16:33
kanzure(namely, there has never been a free printer, ever)16:33
Utopiahecho "There is not free meal." | sed -e "s/meal/printer/"16:35
kanzureno, i mean the gutenberg printer was supposed to be this era of free press and other BS, but it was actually always a proprietary, licensed machine16:36
Utopiahpolitical tool16:37
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kanzurejrayhawk: what's your workflow for piny development? do you write code, make the deb package, uninstall previous .deb, install latest, then test?16:40
kanzureor are you just making changes on your filesystem with symlinks16:40
jrayhawkwrite code, make deb package, install deb package on dev.piny.be, test on dev.piny.be16:41
jrayhawkIf you createuser@dev.piny.be I can switch your shell over to something less restrictive so you can mess around.16:41
kanzuressh wants a password for createuser16:42
jrayhawkAny new commands need to be symlinked into /srv/rbin and enabled in sudoers.d.16:42
jrayhawkoh, that's interesting.16:42
jrayhawkI guess I disabled that for dev.16:42
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kanzureoh man, bugseverywhere is in worse of a state than i thought16:53
kanzuregit clone git://gitorious.org/be/be16:53
kanzuretry: "be list" on itself16:53
jrayhawkhttp://piny.be/piny-code/ and http://piny.be/piny-code/issues/ should be a little more interesting, now.16:54
kanzureblerg but i don't wanna merge17:00
jrayhawkYou have some unmerged issues?17:01
jrayhawkif so, you can apt-get install moreutils and for i in list of files; cat ../templates/issues.mdwn $i | sponge $i; done17:02
QuantumGsounds like you need to see a psychologist.17:02
kanzurejrayhawk: no, unmerged unrelated other changes. it's ok, i'll live :)17:02
kanzurewhat is tag/17:03
jrayhawkPages that are autocreated whenever someone uses a [[!taglink]] directive.17:03
jrayhawkSo, for instance, I can point rss2email at http://piny.be/piny-code/tag/jrayhawk/index.rss to follow my bugs.17:04
kanzurewhat is the difference between srv/templates/ and templates/17:04
jrayhawk/srv/templates/ is part of what needs to be installed on piny. It'll get moved somewhere more explicable once we refactor the install paths.17:05
kanzurei grepped through everything and nowhere is srv/templates/ mentioned17:06
kanzureso it seems to be unreferenced17:06
jrayhawk./usr/src/libpiny/share/ikiwiki.setup:templatedir => "/srv/templates", # TODO: user-customizable templates17:07
kanzureyes but that's a reference to the installed path, not the path in the git repository17:08
kanzurebut, grep -r has failed me anyway17:08
jrayhawkYeah, that's one of the things that needs manual management outside of dpkg. Everything else is documented in http://piny.be/piny-code/issues/debian_packaging_concerns/17:09
kanzureso is there an ikiwiki interface to the issues now, or what?17:09
kanzurepresumably you were showing me something17:09
kanzurei guess there's stuff like https://secure.piny.be/repos/piny-code/ikiwiki.cgi?page=issues%2Fwmd&do=edit17:14
kanzurebut it seems to be just "edit a section of this document" thingy?17:14
ybit2bleep blop17:15
kanzurehi ybit2 17:15
kanzuredid you pick up that vertical cnc machine center?17:15
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kanzurejrayhawk: pruned the tree a bit https://secure.piny.be/cgit/piny-code.git/tree/17:32
jrayhawkSo I see.17:32
kanzurei suppose tag/ could be moved17:32
kanzurebut it seems useful to ikiwiki in general17:32
kanzure(same with template/)17:33
jrayhawkYeah, we should probably move Ikiwiki over to doc/ anyway.17:33
kanzureme or you17:33
jrayhawkWell, I suppose Jules should implement that as a pinyconfig thing first.17:33
kanzurethe best answer of all.17:33
kanzureso where is ikiwiki getting favicon.ico (and others) from? http://piny.be/piny-code/17:35
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jrayhawkIt isn't. You could define one in /srv/templates/page.tmpl if you wanted, though just adding http://ikiwiki.info/plugins/favicon/ is a better idea, I guess.17:39
kanzurehttp://piny.be/piny-code/favicon.ico seems to exist to me.17:41
jrayhawkoh, that's an underlay item. Hmm. I did a reckless ikiwiki upgrade I need to clean some stuff up for.17:42
jrayhawkOne of Ikiwiki's more irritating features is this concept of an 'underlay' that Joey just assumes people will want in every Ikiwiki.17:43
jrayhawkOne of the hopes was that I could use piny-shared as a way of avoiding that, but there's a lot of manual overhead and I need to decide what to do with it.17:43
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kanzurejrayhawk: testing piny-tools, libpiny and pinyadmin seems kind of painful17:56
kanzureisn't this what metasploit (et al.) was created for?17:56
jrayhawkYeah, we should really have regression testing.17:56
kanzurei guess metasploit is too extreme for this17:56
kanzurei meant: "a simple vm image to boot up for a developer to test a new installation on"17:57
kanzurealthough, it's fairly annoying to have to rebuild the .deb17:57
kanzurehrm.17:57
jrayhawkIt'd be easiest to grab the entirity of dev, I guess. Let me go see what's going on with createuser.17:59
kanzureeven with dev.piny.be the development workflow still sucks17:59
jrayhawkWe are developing debian packages.18:01
jrayhawkActually ensuring those packages are usable is not an optional part of the workflow.18:02
kanzurebut just for testing even simple changes?18:05
kanzurei.e. the set of simple changes that can't be tested in isolation of the other piny infrastructure18:05
jrayhawkPerhaps you are irrationally terrified of building and installing packages?18:06
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kanzurequite possibly18:06
jrayhawkthe commands you'd want would be 'dpkg-buildpackage -tc' and 'debi'18:07
jrayhawkerr, sudo debi18:07
jrayhawkwell, prepended by 'cd piny-code/libpiny'18:09
jrayhawkor piny-code/pinyadmin18:09
kanzureso what if multiple people are testing wacky shit out on dev.piny.be at the same time?18:12
jrayhawkAt that point, 17:59 < jrayhawk> It'd be easiest to grab the entirity of dev, I guess.18:13
jrayhawkHmm. I guess an openssh-server upgrade broke PAM. Lame. Anyway, createuser is working on dev.piny.be if you want to make an account I can enable the shell on.18:14
kanzurejrayhawk: ok done18:15
jrayhawkShould be better, now.18:15
jrayhawkugh. using git mv instead of Ikiwiki's move means all the paths in the markdown and directives are broken.18:16
kanzuredidn't i fix that?18:16
kanzure(manually)18:16
jrayhawkhttp://piny.be/piny-code/docs/architecture/18:16
kanzureoh, i didn't see any in there (i tried grep "\[\[" for links)18:16
jrayhawkhttps://secure.piny.be/cgit/piny-code.git/tree/docs/architecture.mdwn18:17
kanzurewhat's the propagate-your-authorized-keys ssh command thingy?18:17
jrayhawkwritekeys, though you should have a real shell now, so 'mkdir .ssh; cat > .ssh/authorized_keys' should work similarly well.18:18
* kanzure defaults to writekeys18:18
kanzurewell, yes, but there's actually an ssh script provided by openssh18:18
kanzurethe name escapes me18:18
jrayhawkoh18:18
jrayhawkssh-copy-id i guess18:19
kanzureaha18:19
jrayhawkhuh, i never knew about that.18:20
kanzure/home looks awful with ikiwiki everywhere :P18:20
jrayhawkoh, I just added you to sudo; you'll need to relogin for that to work18:22
jrayhawkYou should avoid running Ikiwiki directly under any circumstances because it is incredibly easy to screw up with it and break things in subtle ways. 'rebuildrepo' is the command you want.18:24
jrayhawkOther than that I think you're good to break stuff as you like.18:24
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kanzurefenn: are you still interested in going after vehicleforge, in spite of what we heard during the webinar?20:10
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fennwhat in particular was heard in the webinar? besides the whole soul-sucking aspect, which we knew from the start20:51
kanzurethat it's just a repository for whatever language-format the other DARPA performers (who responded to META) come up with20:53
kanzurenot actually CAD or stuff like that.20:53
kanzurei don't see this as an opportunity to do what we want to do in a reasonable way20:55
kanzure"reasonable" is the operative word there20:56
kanzureso i'm much less inclined to want to be at the helm of a VF project20:56
kanzurestill, todd's contact is still moving forward and has redhat involved and a few others, it's going to end up being a large group of people20:57
kanzureso being involved in that way is still possible, if that's of any interest20:57
* fenn sleeps on it21:01
kanzuredid you createuser yourself on piny.be?21:02
kanzurejrayhawk: if on a homepage hosted by piny (for the entire server) the user logs in and gets an aggregated feed of what's up, how is that not 'dynamic'? 21:07
kanzure(i think this 'dynamic' term needs better definition)21:08
jrayhawkWe haven't decided how to do that part yet.21:09
kanzureis piny-web, in your case, that "front page" ?21:09
jrayhawkThe dynamicity is fairly trivial implementation detail once we have all the data set up that we need.21:09
kanzureyes but i thought you were bloodlustingly avoiding dynamic pages21:10
kanzurebloodlustfully21:10
jrayhawkWith the user case it might be inevitable. Depend on how a number of other things work out.21:10
jrayhawks/Depend/Depends21:11
kanzureokay.21:12
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kanzurehttp://github.com/mojombo/egitd21:30
kanzureapparently they don't use that anymore21:30
fenn"Is Robin Hanson a humanoid computer sent from the future to convince humans to agree to upload our future brains onto computers? Do the future computers need to devour our minds because they have learned all the knowable facts in the universe but been unable to logically deduce love? Or are they hoping to gain strategic insight from our brains for the future man vs computer war? Is Bryan Caplan our John Conner?"21:37
kanzurethat's not funny, robin is genuinely looney21:38
kanzurejrayhawk: how would i go about moving ikiwiki into docs/ (or some customizable folder)? 21:40
kanzurei'm guessing piny_ikiwikidestdir or piny_ikiwikisrcdir in piny-code/libpiny/lib/Piny/Config.pm21:41
kanzurebut it might be something more involved21:41
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kanzurewait, that's definitely wrong21:41
kanzurei should just break piny-code.git and have jules fix it by solving it21:42
kanzurei also think wikipath should be a per-repo configurable.21:44
jrayhawkYeah, that's on the TODO list.21:45
kanzurereally i just don't want to see tags/ templates/ and *.mdwm all the time in a development repo :P21:47
kanzures/tags/tag21:47
kanzureoh well. maybe i'll figure out something else to do21:48
jrayhawkYou can get it minimally working by arranging for srcdir to be changed in the generated setup file.21:48
jrayhawkThere should probably also be a means of cleaning up the destdir and the leftover .ikiwiki directory, but that's less essential.21:49
kanzureeh i feel there's a few things missing from http://piny.be/piny-code/docs/architecture/needed_user_facing_infrastructure/21:50
kanzurebased on what we've been talking about21:50
kanzureyou mentioned ikiwiki/cgit integration? or was that me21:52
jrayhawkI might have, but I don't remember the context.21:52
kanzurefor some reason "Page History" in ikiwiki links over to cgit21:53
kanzureon a related note, cgit doesn't seem to do --follow for history.. i.e.: https://secure.piny.be/cgit/piny-code.git/log/docs/architecture/needed_user_facing_infrastructure.mdwn21:53
kanzurei would imagine that http://piny.be/piny-code/libpiny/ should still be under the ikiwiki interface too..21:54
jrayhawkJules gets upset when autoindex adds markdown files.21:56
jrayhawkYou can duke that out with him.21:56
kanzureadds markdown files?21:56
kanzurei don't want to add markdown files21:57
kanzurei guess i can edit apache's default index page for that sort of subdirectory21:58
kanzurethis is stupid.21:59
kanzureah, .htaccess is slightly less of a stupid solution22:08
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kanzurejrayhawk: what happens if i commit .htaccess at the moment? and should it be overwritten server-side/disallowed?22:10
JayDuggerGood morning, everyone.22:24
JayDuggerThere also exists a board game of developing space named Rocket Flight. http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/5525/rocket-flight22:30
JayDuggerFollowed by a better successor, High Trader, which seems stuck in permanent private playtest at Ad Astra Games.22:31
JayDuggerRocket Flight has Santa Claus Machines near the top of its tech tree.22:32
jrayhawkThere are no AllowOverrides22:37
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JayDuggerkanzure, have you met Robin Hanson in person?23:09
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--- Log closed Sat Oct 30 00:00:07 2010

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