| --- Log opened Wed Apr 04 00:00:01 2012 | ||
| --- Day changed Wed Apr 04 2012 | ||
| katsmeow | you could still program, if there was a sim which converted a dna "program" into a simulated lifeform | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| yashgaroth | nah I'll just learn python instead | 00:00 |
| katsmeow | hmm, i know someone else playing with py, why the attraction to it? | 00:01 |
| yashgaroth | it's vaguely similar to english, while also not being visual basic | 00:01 |
| yashgaroth | I don't need to do mad sql injection exploits, so it's powerful enough for me | 00:01 |
| katsmeow | there's many otehr basics besides "visual" basic | 00:01 |
| yashgaroth | the big 3 for bio programming are python, java and perl | 00:02 |
| yashgaroth | if I learned one thing about java it's slow as shit, and I know nothing about perl, so python is the logical choice | 00:02 |
| katsmeow | established mass and momentum then? | 00:02 |
| katsmeow | herd instinct | 00:03 |
| yashgaroth | I will admit java is a close second since everyone learns it in undergrad, at least at my school | 00:03 |
| katsmeow | lots of libraries | 00:03 |
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| yashgaroth | 'import bioinformatics' | 00:03 |
| katsmeow | when i was looking at py and php and ruby, php would run with no mods and no getting human permission on web servers, so i went with php | 00:04 |
| katsmeow | perl i ingored | 00:04 |
| katsmeow | ignored | 00:04 |
| yashgaroth | also the only good molecular viewers are written in C, python and java | 00:05 |
| yashgaroth | and fuuuuuck C | 00:05 |
| katsmeow | today was the first day without the house being effectively underwater, and it was quite noticeably hotter upstairs | 00:05 |
| yashgaroth | NWS shows an absurd weather pattern at your position | 00:06 |
| katsmeow | i expected better from the R19 insulation up there, the water makes more of a difference | 00:06 |
| katsmeow | weather? there's no weather here al day, or yesterday, that's the odd part lately | 00:07 |
| katsmeow | http://classic.wunderground.com/radar/radblast.asp?ID=BMX | 00:07 |
| katsmeow | nothing | 00:07 |
| katsmeow | we should be having mild thuderstorms | 00:08 |
| yashgaroth | what about all that red junk on http://radar.weather.gov/Conus/full_loop.php?hurl | 00:08 |
| yashgaroth | it's coming straight for you! | 00:08 |
| katsmeow | but it isn't | 00:08 |
| yashgaroth | but then I'm speaking from the place that has the least weather in the US | 00:08 |
| katsmeow | the mess over louisiana came down from Ark and Ok, and it's not headed here | 00:09 |
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| yashgaroth | well okay then | 00:09 |
| katsmeow | tehre was a mess over Miss headed this way yesterday, but at 6:44pm it faded to nothing | 00:10 |
| yashgaroth | I saw a cloud last month | 00:10 |
| katsmeow | there wwas a mess on the 2nd, same thing, at 8:14pm it dissolved | 00:11 |
| * katsmeow logs weather radar (and other things) going back at least 10 years | 00:11 | |
| katsmeow | hourly | 00:12 |
| katsmeow | on the 1st, there was a small storm that was headed tis way, it vanished at 5:14am | 00:13 |
| jrayhawk | one time i saw the sun | 00:13 |
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| katsmeow-afk | two 18-wheel trailers in the air by tornado: http://raycomgroup.images.worldnow.com/images/17323176_BG2.jpg | 01:02 |
| thylne | where | 01:23 |
| diginet | yashgaroth, build a GUI interface in Visual Basic, see if you can get an IP address | 01:29 |
| yashgaroth | :D | 01:30 |
| diginet | oh good you get it, I was worried you were going to be all WTF | 01:30 |
| diginet | LISP IS TEH BEST PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE OF ALL TIME | 01:31 |
| diginet | inb4 smug lisp weenie | 01:31 |
| yashgaroth | best scene in modern television, after the one where they hunt a suspect in second life | 01:31 |
| diginet | wait | 01:31 |
| diginet | wait | 01:31 |
| diginet | wait | 01:31 |
| diginet | hold on | 01:31 |
| diginet | they HUNT A SUSPECT IN SECOND LIFE | 01:31 |
| yashgaroth | I think he's a furry too, can't remember, but it would fit | 01:31 |
| diginet | you know how I was going on earlier about the sanctity of human life? | 01:31 |
| diginet | I RETRACT EVERYTHING | 01:32 |
| yashgaroth | excellent | 01:32 |
| diginet | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ceaqtWhdnI&feature=related | 01:33 |
| diginet | CLEARLY YOU JUST HAVE TO GET THE IPP4 PRIVATE NETWORK | 01:34 |
| yashgaroth | my aunt unironically likes that show, and she heads the classics dept. at a top 5 university :/ | 01:35 |
| diginet | oh dear lord | 01:35 |
| diginet | classics professor? I almost went into classics | 01:35 |
| diginet | which uni, if you don't mind me asking? | 01:36 |
| yashgaroth | it's in the UC system, I'll say that much | 01:36 |
| diginet | ah okay | 01:36 |
| diginet | well, that's cool | 01:36 |
| yashgaroth | she's good at classics I guess, just not tv | 01:37 |
| diginet | the part about having a smart aunt, not that she likes that abortion of a television show | 01:37 |
| yashgaroth | yeah | 01:37 |
| diginet | NUMB3RS gave me PTSD, now whenever I hear "Golbach Conjecture" I have flashbacks, convulsions, and acute psychosis | 01:37 |
| diginet | OH GOD NOT AGAIN | 01:37 |
| yashgaroth | sue! | 01:38 |
| diginet | "Breaking News: NUMB3TS indicted for supposed rape of mathematics. This case will set a major landmark in the recognition that concepts, methodologies, and axiomatic systems can and are raped" | 01:40 |
| diginet | *can be | 01:41 |
| Utopiah | not sure what that is but some here could be curious http://avaxhome.ws/software/software_type/graphics_cad_cam/cad_cam/AUTODESK.FACTORY.DESIGN.SUITE.ULTIMATE.2013.html | 01:46 |
| Utopiah | (makes me wonder if it has a Kiva plugin) | 01:49 |
| Utopiah | (also http://avaxhome.ws/software/software_type/graphics_cad_cam/cad_cam/AUTODESK.AUTOCAD.DESIGN.SUITE.ULTIMATE.2013.html but I guess more traditionnal) | 01:56 |
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| katsmeow-afk | Self-assembled photosystem-I biophotovoltaics on nanostructured TiO2 and ZnO | 04:45 |
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| katsmeow-afk | http://www.nature.com/srep/2012/120202/srep00234/full/srep00234.html | 04:46 |
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| _Sketch_ | For anyone attempting to use Ruby, I recommend using rvm. Distro packages for ruby suck. | 07:34 |
| _Sketch_ | Still might require grabbing packages though, or at least know how to get the build libraries on your own. | 07:34 |
| kanzure | yep.. i use rvm | 07:40 |
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| kanzure | i should ban katsmeow for even mentioning php to yashgaroth | 07:41 |
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| delinquentme | showar. | 08:19 |
| kanzure | ? | 08:20 |
| delinquentme | it really pisses me off that intra-email search on gmail sucks ass | 08:30 |
| delinquentme | I was unable to locate oligonucleotide with oligo | 08:30 |
| delinquentme | w t f | 08:30 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, gnusha is what you use for keeping notes right? | 08:37 |
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| kanzure | delinquentme: sorta. i also keep a wiki on diyhpl.us/wiki | 09:21 |
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| kanzure | 2012-04-04T16:54:44+00:00 heroku[web.7]: Process running mem=614M(119.9%) | 09:56 |
| kanzure | oh god we're all going to die | 09:56 |
| kanzure | 2012-04-04T16:54:33+00:00 heroku[web.29]: Process running mem=617M(120.5% | 09:56 |
| kanzure | yep definitely going to die | 09:56 |
| Mokbortolan_ | Well, it is 2012 | 09:59 |
| kanzure | Mokbortolan_: someone was in here complaining that piracetam prices are back up | 10:00 |
| Mokbortolan_ | and as we all know, the Mayans predicted the return of Jesus, the establishment of the single caliphate, and the end of the universe later in the year | 10:00 |
| Mokbortolan_ | *sigh* | 10:01 |
| * Mokbortolan_ checks. | 10:01 | |
| Mokbortolan_ | nope, hard rhino's still at the same level | 10:01 |
| Mokbortolan_ | maybe they're referring to Cognitive Whatsits | 10:02 |
| Mokbortolan_ | they recently got some stock in | 10:02 |
| kanzure | alright then | 10:04 |
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| kanzure | hi nsh | 10:24 |
| * nsh tips hat | 10:24 | |
| nsh | hi | 10:24 |
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| F71 | Hello | 10:40 |
| kanzure | F71: sup | 10:40 |
| delinquentme | F71, i've never met a plane before | 10:40 |
| delinquentme | cool to meet you. | 10:41 |
| delinquentme | if its not too personal... when can i get in you | 10:41 |
| delinquentme | questionmark | 10:41 |
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| F71 | I am very confused right now | 10:45 |
| F71 | It will pass. | 10:46 |
| delinquentme | lol | 10:46 |
| delinquentme | sorry im not house broken | 10:46 |
| delinquentme | SO whatre you working on? | 10:46 |
| delinquentme | wish u guys were here atm | 10:48 |
| delinquentme | its fucking lovely | 10:48 |
| delinquentme | im out in the bamboo garden @ carnegie library =] | 10:49 |
| delinquentme | so so fucking nice | 10:49 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, we dont yet have a list of clients huh | 10:50 |
| delinquentme | i mean other than "everyone with a lab" | 10:50 |
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| Mariu | LOL delinquentme "F71, i've never met a plane before" | 10:51 |
| * delinquentme humps uniqanomaly | 10:51 | |
| delinquentme | =] | 10:51 |
| delinquentme | Mariu, they're cool man! | 10:51 |
| Mariu | ^^ | 10:51 |
| delinquentme | LISTEN IVE HAD SOME CAFFEINE TODAY | 10:51 |
| delinquentme | IVE GOT IT UNDER CONTROL | 10:51 |
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| F71 | I'll turn the Adium noises on so I'm not so touch-and-go | 10:52 |
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| delinquentme | F71, airplane messenger protocol? | 10:53 |
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| delinquentme | show me your technologies! | 10:53 |
| F71 | Of interest to this group, I've built a TDCS machine and I'm trying to test it so I can be sure it works right. | 10:53 |
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| F71 | I've built other goofy things with electrodes out of cheap crap before | 10:54 |
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| F71 | This latest one is a battery, three electronic components, copper tape, and a shamwow | 10:54 |
| Mokbortolan_ | nice | 10:54 |
| Mokbortolan_ | what circuit did you build? | 10:54 |
| delinquentme | TCDS are showing well recently | 10:54 |
| Mokbortolan_ | <-- was active in /r/tDCS until recently | 10:55 |
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| F71 | It's just a constant current supply and some sponge electrodes | 10:55 |
| F71 | I was not aware of that reddit, sweet | 10:55 |
| delinquentme | after the burial is pretty gnast kanzure does u lik? | 10:56 |
| delinquentme | Mokbortolan_, yeah you told me about them | 10:56 |
| Mokbortolan_ | F71: yeah, but what sort of circuit? | 10:56 |
| Mokbortolan_ | which components, etc | 10:57 |
| Mokbortolan_ | it's sort of important | 10:57 |
| F71 | It's a Jfet, a potentiometer/resistor and an LED | 10:59 |
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| F71 | It makes a very good, stable, adjustible current supply | 10:59 |
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| katsmeow-afk | most people use mosfets,, or still use bipolars | 11:00 |
| F71 | Jfets are ancient and cool | 11:00 |
| katsmeow-afk | a good darlington bipolar beats a mosfet in my book if you can deal with an extra volt of headroom | 11:00 |
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| F71 | that and I had one that I desoldered, I could have easily made it differently if I had different scrap | 11:01 |
| katsmeow-afk | in fets, you haveto deal with the charge shoot-thru too | 11:01 |
| katsmeow-afk | ditto mosfets | 11:01 |
| katsmeow-afk | but a to-92 mosfet and bipolar cost about the same on ebay: $1 per 100 if you shop carefully | 11:02 |
| F71 | Jfets cost between a dime and a quarter without even buying bulk | 11:04 |
| F71 | that, and they're easy to find | 11:04 |
| katsmeow-afk | ok, that beats a penny each, i spose | 11:04 |
| F71 | oh I thought you said a buck per one, hahaha | 11:05 |
| F71 | misread | 11:05 |
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| kanzure | http://www.nature.com/press_releases/linkeddata.html?WT.mc_id=TWT_npgnews | 11:38 |
| kanzure | "Nature Publishing Group (NPG) today is pleased to join the linked data community by opening up access to its publication data via a linked data platform. NPG's Linked Data Platform is available at http://data.nature.com" | 11:38 |
| kanzure | "The platform includes more than 20 million Resource Description Framework (RDF) statements, including primary metadata for more than 450,000 articles published by NPG since 1869. In this first release, the datasets include basic citation information (title, author, publication date, etc) as well as NPG specific ontologies. " | 11:39 |
| kanzure | These datasets are being released under an open metadata license, Creative Commons Zero (CC0), which permits maximal use/re-use of this data. | 11:39 |
| kanzure | hrm | 11:39 |
| kanzure | http://data.nature.com/query | 11:39 |
| kanzure | http://developers.nature.com/docs | 11:39 |
| kanzure | bleh "Non-commercial API key holders are allowed 5,000 requests per 24-hour period" | 11:40 |
| katsmeow-afk | beats google, iirc they limit to 3000/month | 11:41 |
| superkuh | I just get 503, SERVICE_UNAVAILABLE. | 11:43 |
| kanzure | this looks like a good query: describe <http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/nm.2129> | 11:43 |
| kanzure | first person to replicate this entire dataset gets a cookie | 11:47 |
| superkuh | Trying from my Comcast IP returns 503, from a canadian VPS everything works fine. | 11:49 |
| lichen | so looks like google's actually making goggles | 11:51 |
| lichen | hopefully they dont suck incredibly | 11:51 |
| delinquentme | soy restless | 11:58 |
| kanzure | superkuh: do you have a random canadian vps, or did you pick something bulletproof that you could share the name of? | 12:01 |
| kanzure | lichen: http://fennetic.net/irc/cyberfenn/hplus_proposal/ | 12:02 |
| kanzure | lichen: http://fennetic.net/irc/cyberfenn/layout.yaml | 12:02 |
| lichen | heh, a pic from blame | 12:02 |
| kanzure | keeping it real.. | 12:03 |
| superkuh | I don't know about bulletproof, but I use BuyVM openvz. The primary quality being that it is extremely cheap. I just thought it odd that Comcast might (partially) be blocked. | 12:03 |
| kanzure | it's also possible that they are blocking you explicitly | 12:03 |
| kanzure | i am a little curious about how all the publishers aren't using the same blacklist or something.. surely i should be banned from everything by now? | 12:04 |
| lichen | wearable computers are wonderfully cyberpunk but im starting to have questions about how well they'll be picked up by society | 12:04 |
| lichen | but its possible smartphones were the transitional technology needed to get there | 12:05 |
| kanzure | i don't think it matters if they are picked up by society or not? | 12:05 |
| kanzure | doesn't it only matter if they provide function to you? | 12:05 |
| lichen | not necessarily, but it would mean funding and development would go to it | 12:05 |
| lichen | and more applications | 12:05 |
| lichen | and infrastructure | 12:05 |
| kanzure | the amount of funding required isn't that high | 12:06 |
| kanzure | like, at most you just need me to fund it | 12:06 |
| kanzure | or a couple of other people | 12:06 |
| lichen | true | 12:06 |
| kanzure | look at his pricesheet | 12:06 |
| lichen | ideally what i want to be working on right now is this sort of thing | 12:06 |
| lichen | probably more on the software end | 12:06 |
| lichen | btw i dont know what kinds of jobs you had in mind when you asked for my resume but if you want to chat about that i've got about half an hour before i leave | 12:08 |
| kanzure | i'm not ready to talk with you about that | 12:08 |
| lichen | alright | 12:09 |
| lichen | i was just wondering if it was something youre doing or if you meant to hand it off | 12:09 |
| kanzure | a little of both | 12:09 |
| lichen | k | 12:09 |
| lichen | well stay in touch then | 12:10 |
| kanzure | oh i guess i should clarify that i am not ready to talk with you about anything that i might be doing | 12:11 |
| kanzure | but the other stuff is just people i know who are hiring programmers for web app and mobile app development | 12:12 |
| lichen | ok | 12:12 |
| lichen | its looking like everything is pointing me to do freelance app development | 12:12 |
| lichen | youre the second person ive run into online who has mentioned hooking me up with people needing that | 12:12 |
| kanzure | that's the vast majority of my paying work | 12:13 |
| kanzure | er, i mean, that's the vast majority of what i get paid to do | 12:13 |
| lichen | yeah | 12:13 |
| lichen | i guess ill go grab a smartphone this weekend or so | 12:14 |
| lichen | look over the APIs | 12:14 |
| lichen | everyone wants iphone development so maybe grab a used one somewhere | 12:14 |
| kanzure | do you have osx? | 12:14 |
| lichen | ive been using this same shitty flip phone for like 4 years now | 12:14 |
| lichen | no | 12:14 |
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| kanzure | iphone development is locked into apple | 12:14 |
| lichen | but i can run it in virtual if needed | 12:14 |
| kanzure | so you will have to buy an apple computer or find a working virtual machine | 12:14 |
| lichen | thats stupid | 12:14 |
| kanzure | yes it's very stupid | 12:15 |
| kanzure | i suggest android | 12:15 |
| lichen | yeah | 12:15 |
| lichen | i prefer android | 12:15 |
| lichen | but like i said, most people want ios apps | 12:15 |
| kanzure | ehh | 12:15 |
| kanzure | most of the projects i've done have been both | 12:15 |
| lichen | kind of what i meant | 12:18 |
| lichen | they want full platform coverage | 12:19 |
| F71 | Oh, wearable computing | 12:19 |
| F71 | I just read through your stuff you linked, Fenn | 12:20 |
| F71 | I've got a little project I'm working on with my roomate, we're trying to make an HMD with full field of view | 12:20 |
| lichen | nice | 12:21 |
| F71 | I've got the optics down, aspheric lenses | 12:21 |
| F71 | I can focus on my smartphone, see either edge by looking to the left and right | 12:21 |
| ThomasEgi | aspheric smartphone lens? | 12:22 |
| F71 | I can focus on most flat things about an inch and a half from the surface of my eye | 12:22 |
| F71 | I use the lens to adjust my eye focus really close | 12:22 |
| ThomasEgi | ah. ok. | 12:22 |
| F71 | the camcorder function on my smartphone just provides me with a video feed to test with | 12:22 |
| lichen | so what, you have the smartphone right against your face with a lens inbetween? | 12:22 |
| F71 | yeah | 12:23 |
| F71 | Ideally, two | 12:23 |
| lichen | hmm | 12:23 |
| F71 | since one eye can see all of it | 12:23 |
| lichen | reminds me of uh | 12:23 |
| lichen | might take me a while to find a pic | 12:23 |
| lichen | but the goggles in ghost in the shell | 12:23 |
| F71 | it's easier than one screen with weird dimensions, and lets me work around the nose | 12:23 |
| lichen | http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs5/i/2004/299/1/b/Motoko_2nd_Closeup_by_arcipello.jpg | 12:23 |
| F71 | That'd be quite nice | 12:24 |
| lichen | sounds like the end result of what youre doing is quite similar | 12:24 |
| F71 | I've got a galaxy S2, so it's fairly large and high resolution as smartphones go | 12:24 |
| F71 | it's still kind of grainy, like peering through a veil | 12:24 |
| lichen | yeah | 12:25 |
| lichen | id imagine it always would be until you get to massive resolutions | 12:25 |
| F71 | It's good enough for the present | 12:25 |
| lichen | yeah | 12:25 |
| F71 | I can get a line on replacement 'retina' iphone screens for fifteen bucks | 12:25 |
| F71 | but I can find no information on driving them and the little connector is a nightmare | 12:26 |
| lichen | that would make constructing these much easier | 12:26 |
| lichen | or cheaper, rather | 12:26 |
| lichen | rather than trying to sync two phones | 12:26 |
| F71 | For twenty, I can get the much lower resolution PSP screens that hackers have been messing with for half a decade | 12:26 |
| lichen | yeah | 12:26 |
| lichen | and you dont need touch | 12:26 |
| F71 | Current design philosophy is two controllers being driven by high-powered ARM | 12:27 |
| lichen | would you run android on it or hook it into a phone or what | 12:27 |
| F71 | controllers cost like five bucks, and another eight for an ARM9 or something | 12:27 |
| lichen | not bad | 12:28 |
| delinquentme | <3 GITS | 12:28 |
| lichen | and you could print or mold a shell for it all really cheaply | 12:28 |
| lichen | i have kusanagi's hair, lol | 12:28 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: we need something for after GITS... | 12:28 |
| delinquentme | true. | 12:28 |
| kanzure | like i said, an anime based off of ##hplusroadmap | 12:28 |
| delinquentme | true true | 12:28 |
| delinquentme | haha | 12:28 |
| delinquentme | we're out there :D | 12:28 |
| lichen | write a manga | 12:29 |
| lichen | graphic novel | 12:29 |
| lichen | whatever | 12:29 |
| F71 | I've got a laser cutter and a 3D printer at my hackspace. There's a decent mill for injection If I decide to get ambitious | 12:29 |
| kanzure | yes but what would the story be? "And then the character became a transhuman, and lived happily ever after" | 12:29 |
| lichen | thats not very creative kanzure | 12:29 |
| delinquentme | F71, whut you charge for laser cutting acrylic? | 12:29 |
| delinquentme | neds up to 10mm | 12:29 |
| kanzure | lichen: agreed! | 12:29 |
| F71 | Members get a free hour of laser time per week | 12:30 |
| F71 | membership is 25/month | 12:30 |
| delinquentme | i need some REALLY simple cut parts | 12:30 |
| F71 | We haven't had anyone need more time than that yet. | 12:30 |
| delinquentme | EFF that dude on youtube hasnt gotten back to me | 12:30 |
| F71 | Our laser admin has SO-SAD right now so he's incommunicado | 12:30 |
| F71 | What do you need? | 12:31 |
| lichen | fucking intel hasnt gotten back to me yet about a job | 12:31 |
| lichen | im on the verge of making the plunge, quitting my job, and doing app development | 12:31 |
| kanzure | wait wait, no.. | 12:31 |
| kanzure | first, most people do not get back to you if you do not make it | 12:31 |
| kanzure | you should generally expect that to um never happen | 12:31 |
| lichen | yeah im aware | 12:31 |
| kanzure | second! don't quit and then go into app development. | 12:31 |
| lichen | i emailed the recruiter and asked if she heard anything | 12:31 |
| kanzure | get a contract first, then quit. | 12:31 |
| lichen | and she hasnt returned my email | 12:31 |
| lichen | i have a contact | 12:32 |
| lichen | but he seems shaky so far | 12:32 |
| kanzure | has he paid you yet? | 12:32 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: where is this now? http://heybryan.org/books/papers/New%20biotechnological%20applications%20of%20coconuts.pdf | 12:32 |
| lichen | id probably have one or two web design jobs from him | 12:32 |
| lichen | i havent done anything for him yet | 12:32 |
| delinquentme | F71, they're gonna be clear acrylic nothing more than like 24"^2 | 12:32 |
| kanzure | nmz787: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/New%20biotechnological%20applications%20of%20coconuts.pdf | 12:32 |
| kanzure | lichen: you should generally ask for money upfront (call it a retainer) | 12:32 |
| lichen | i would have had a job already if the client didnt fucking flake out | 12:32 |
| F71 | @kanzure the link in the box is dead | 12:33 |
| kanzure | the box? | 12:33 |
| nmz787 | txh | 12:33 |
| nmz787 | thx | 12:33 |
| F71 | oh, just the link | 12:33 |
| nmz787 | wow | 12:33 |
| nmz787 | this is my new fav paper | 12:34 |
| nmz787 | hah | 12:34 |
| nmz787 | in-vitro transcription and translation IN A COCONUT??? | 12:34 |
| F71 | It's alive now. | 12:34 |
| F71 | Schrodinger's link | 12:34 |
| nmz787 | sounds a little far fetched actually... i will try it :D | 12:34 |
| kanzure | nmz787: oh man if this is your new favorite, then you might like this one.. | 12:34 |
| nmz787 | hmm, brazil | 12:34 |
| kanzure | oh damn.. i've lost it | 12:35 |
| kanzure | there used to be one about using the breast as a bioreactor | 12:35 |
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| nicotina_b | hello! | 12:35 |
| kanzure | hi nicotina_b | 12:35 |
| nicotina_b | heybryan! | 12:35 |
| nmz787 | hah | 12:36 |
| F71 | Gilligan, do you have any idea how hard it was to build a bioreactor from a coconut? | 12:36 |
| nicotina_b | hey do u have the logs for the chat from yesterday? i posted that paper about l-theanine, bu ti cant find it no w:( | 12:36 |
| nmz787 | :D | 12:36 |
| nicotina_b | coconuts rock! | 12:36 |
| kanzure | nicotina_b: http://gnusha.org/logs/2012-04-03.log | 12:36 |
| nicotina_b | coconut crabs are bad ass too | 12:36 |
| nmz787 | F71: i came to school so i could be exactly that gilligan | 12:36 |
| nicotina_b | thank you kanzure :) | 12:37 |
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| kanzure | hello HIGHsemaj | 12:37 |
| HIGHsemaj | Helllooooo | 12:38 |
| HIGHsemaj | ^.^ | 12:38 |
| nicotina_b | heya | 12:38 |
| HIGHsemaj | What is this IRC channel? | 12:38 |
| lichen | ##hplusroadmap | 12:38 |
| kanzure | it's a bridge into the future | 12:38 |
| HIGHsemaj | help us road map? | 12:38 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: dangit, my gf is in india... she has coconut trees in her back yard :/ | 12:38 |
| nmz787 | I am not there... | 12:38 |
| nmz787 | hah | 12:38 |
| * delinquentme seconds what kanzure said | 12:38 | |
| HIGHsemaj | kanzure How so? | 12:38 |
| lichen | hplus = H+ = humanity plus = transhumanism | 12:38 |
| kanzure | human enhancement technology roadmap | 12:39 |
| HIGHsemaj | I might be to stoned for this | 12:39 |
| nmz787 | next time I go to india I'll pack a microscope and some GFP plasmids | 12:39 |
| nmz787 | and I'll be a coco-nut | 12:39 |
| delinquentme | OOC has anyone ever gotten official college transcripts without having paid off all school loans? | 12:39 |
| nicotina_b | don't forget to drop acid | 12:39 |
| HIGHsemaj | Ehhh | 12:40 |
| HIGHsemaj | I'd rather take some mushrooms | 12:40 |
| nicotina_b | delinquentme: you should be able to | 12:40 |
| nicotina_b | especially for gradschool and such | 12:40 |
| nmz787 | delinquentme: i think i have, for a summer internship | 12:40 |
| HIGHsemaj | So this is like some Cyborg shit? | 12:40 |
| delinquentme | yeah grad school is what im interested in | 12:40 |
| kanzure | HIGHsemaj: yes.. something like that | 12:40 |
| HIGHsemaj | Nanotechnology and what not? | 12:40 |
| lichen | lol | 12:40 |
| delinquentme | HIGHsemaj, not yet but we have some people who are working towards that | 12:41 |
| lichen | CYBORGS N' SHIT | 12:41 |
| delinquentme | we've got people scraping the surface of human augmentation | 12:41 |
| HIGHsemaj | Sounds badass! | 12:41 |
| HIGHsemaj | Ill stick around :) | 12:41 |
| delinquentme | I've got an implanted LED tattoo | 12:41 |
| kanzure | HIGHsemaj: sure.. we have some nanotech experts. http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/nanotech/ | 12:41 |
| delinquentme | change it whenever you want | 12:41 |
| delinquentme | jk jk BRB! | 12:41 |
| HIGHsemaj | Woah | 12:43 |
| HIGHsemaj | This is madness | 12:44 |
| nicotina_b | delinquentme: do you have pics of your led tatoo? also have you tried contacting the school and asking for your transcripts to be sent and explaining that you're trying to go to gradschool? | 12:45 |
| nmz787 | i think he was joking | 12:45 |
| HIGHsemaj | This is all very COnfusing and it seems as tho i have stumbled into something much bigger than my self! you all have fun! immah go try and figure out how to lucid dream :)! | 12:45 |
| delinquentme | nicotina_b, yeah was jking :D | 12:45 |
| delinquentme | its in collections haha | 12:46 |
| nicotina_b | awh... | 12:46 |
| kanzure | lucid dreaming is pretty neat.. where did that guy go who was doing the "Use a computer while you are lucid dreaming" project? | 12:46 |
| lichen | lucid dreaming is fun | 12:46 |
| delinquentme | basically i've decided that its not worth shit | 12:46 |
| delinquentme | so i really dont care to pay it off | 12:46 |
| delinquentme | let them eat the debt | 12:46 |
| delinquentme | they're financing parties and sex IMO | 12:46 |
| lichen | ##neuroscience is full of people who can tell you how to work on that | 12:46 |
| lichen | choline and melatonin supplements are helpful | 12:46 |
| kanzure | lichen: were you around for that project? | 12:46 |
| lichen | nah | 12:47 |
| kanzure | someone was watching eyeballs while sleeping | 12:47 |
| kanzure | and then using horizontal eye movements to control a computer | 12:47 |
| lichen | lol | 12:47 |
| kanzure | because it turns out that when you do a HEM in your dream you make a physical HEM | 12:47 |
| lichen | interesting | 12:47 |
| nicotina_b | is that supposed to be a way to be more productive during sleep, or just to communicate w/ the outside world? | 12:48 |
| lichen | just research probably | 12:48 |
| kanzure | no not research | 12:48 |
| lichen | oh? | 12:48 |
| kanzure | you can to some extent get signals into a dream | 12:48 |
| kanzure | like through the eyelids or auditory signals | 12:48 |
| kanzure | so if you can get input.. and you can get output.. you can really enhance the dreaming experience | 12:49 |
| kanzure | i've always wondered about brainport and lucid dreaming.. would you be able to show a virtual world in your dream? | 12:49 |
| F71 | That's intriguing | 12:49 |
| lichen | or record the virtual world you see in your dream? | 12:49 |
| kanzure | brainport is that tongue electrode array thing | 12:49 |
| delinquentme | so like we've got this huge list of papers ... http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/nanotech/ | 12:49 |
| HIGHsemaj | Brb sorry | 12:49 |
| delinquentme | and what of that has come to commercial realization? | 12:50 |
| lichen | alright, later | 12:50 |
| lichen | off to work | 12:50 |
| nicotina_b | didn't they already visualize brain images w/ computers and schit? | 12:50 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: robert freitas and the molecular machinery institute are still going at it | 12:50 |
| delinquentme | like do our best and brightest ... write a fancy thesis defend it | 12:50 |
| kanzure | nicotina_b: yes but nobody has proven that there is any "imagery" that exists during dreams | 12:50 |
| delinquentme | then go have kids and work at BASF? | 12:50 |
| delinquentme | game over? | 12:50 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: well.. nanorex | 12:50 |
| kanzure | they wrote nanoengineer but abandoned it after a few years | 12:51 |
| nicotina_b | fuck my school. they aren't letting me connect to science direct on this computer | 12:51 |
| kanzure | so i recovered it | 12:51 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/cgit/nanoengineer | 12:51 |
| nmz787 | dna origami is weird | 12:51 |
| nmz787 | it makes you realize how flexible DNA is | 12:51 |
| nmz787 | bases and sugars really have a lot of kink freedom | 12:52 |
| nmz787 | all those single bonds | 12:52 |
| kanzure | F71: did you see that latest kickstarter campaign for someone making an LED flasher to notify you when you're dreaming? | 12:52 |
| delinquentme | yeah | 12:52 |
| delinquentme | they've got cool star scape printed foamy face pieces | 12:52 |
| delinquentme | so kew | 12:52 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: why get a flasher, you won't see it if you're asleep, right? | 12:53 |
| nmz787 | or you're saying thats the kind of signal that could get through? | 12:53 |
| nmz787 | what if you use it a lot, but then forget if you're in reality or a dream... and accidentally kill yourself | 12:53 |
| delinquentme | lolol | 12:54 |
| delinquentme | jump infront of a car .. LIGHTS OMG i can fly | 12:54 |
| delinquentme | nope | 12:54 |
| delinquentme | jk | 12:54 |
| kanzure | nmz787: yes you do see it in your sleep | 12:54 |
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| delinquentme | girl i knew from HS posts a baby picture | 12:58 |
| delinquentme | everyones all CONGRATS CONGRATS | 12:59 |
| delinquentme | im all | 12:59 |
| delinquentme | HOLY SHIT is that ultrasound?? look @ that resolution! | 12:59 |
| kanzure | damn i couldn't do that.. i don't have my baby pics | 12:59 |
| delinquentme | (congratulations) | 12:59 |
| nicotina_b | i wish i had baby pics | 12:59 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, you can see me in my awesome bright orange overalls | 13:00 |
| delinquentme | :D | 13:00 |
| delinquentme | LOL funny personal note: | 13:00 |
| nicotina_b | kekeke, fucking university blocks sciencedirect.com | 13:00 |
| delinquentme | i told my parents I'd have no problems finding a mate bc i was brightly colored | 13:00 |
| delinquentme | >_< | 13:00 |
| nicotina_b | but those bastards don't block dragonproxy~! | 13:00 |
| nicotina_b | woooo | 13:00 |
| delinquentme | nicotina_b, <<< nice nice | 13:00 |
| kanzure | nicotina_b: do you need something from sciencedirect? | 13:00 |
| nicotina_b | how old were you when u said that, delinquentme? | 13:00 |
| delinquentme | what are you after? PS can you get me a paper? | 13:00 |
| delinquentme | nicotina_b, like 8 hahah | 13:01 |
| nicotina_b | yeah i got it already. idk why they wouldn't let me access the website. stupid shit. | 13:01 |
| nicotina_b | what paper u wanT? | 13:01 |
| nicotina_b | oh shit, this paper is freely avaliable, so i couldn't get it. i can get you one when i'm on a different computer tho | 13:02 |
| nicotina_b | what u want | 13:02 |
| kanzure | huh? i thought you just said you can't get papers | 13:02 |
| kanzure | oh you already got it because it's free | 13:02 |
| kanzure | ok | 13:02 |
| delinquentme | http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0142961212000294 | 13:02 |
| nicotina_b | i usually can, but i got that one cuz it's free and used a proxy. | 13:02 |
| nicotina_b | if i'm on a different computer that's not retarded, then yes i can hook u up | 13:02 |
| delinquentme | NM! | 13:03 |
| delinquentme | got it! | 13:03 |
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| F71 | @ kanzure I've seen the blinkenlight mask | 13:03 |
| kanzure | "A rat decellularized small bowel scaffold that preserves villus-crypt architecture for intestinal regeneration" | 13:03 |
| nicotina_b | "Internet Explorer cannot display the webpage" | 13:03 |
| kanzure | F71: no i mean remeeeeemememe | 13:03 |
| kanzure | F71: | 13:03 |
| kanzure | http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1047510073/remee-the-rem-enhancing-lucid-dreaming-mask/ | 13:03 |
| nicotina_b | ask me some other day and i'll get u it. | 13:04 |
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| F71 | @ Delinquentme Last time I saw an ultrasound on facebook, I remember thinking "tumors might be getting smarter" | 13:05 |
| nsh | i remember these lucid-dreaming masks coming out in the mid 90's | 13:06 |
| nsh | surely by now we can say with some confidence whether they're crap or not | 13:06 |
| kanzure | this one seems still a bit expensive for what it is ($80 for some LEDs and a chip??) | 13:06 |
| delinquentme | lolol | 13:06 |
| delinquentme | like .. i think i just dont fit in with everyone | 13:06 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, correct .. but you're also kickstartering | 13:06 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, nmz787 how many total fluids are needed for the oligo chip? | 13:07 |
| nsh | i suspect that for most of the effect you get from these masks, you may as well be wearing a banana skin over your eyes | 13:07 |
| delinquentme | nsh, i dont think so | 13:07 |
| nsh | well, a lot of it is simply learning to associate going to sleep and waking up with mindfulness of the dream state | 13:07 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: sorry bro, i don't have access to that paper | 13:07 |
| * nicotina_b is going to eat. ttyl. | 13:07 | |
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| delinquentme | kanzure, np np | 13:08 |
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| delinquentme | i got a similar one | 13:08 |
| nsh | the lights will obviously help you 'get lucid' but perhaps not that much more than a habit of reality checking | 13:08 |
| delinquentme | just needed the formulas for the detergents | 13:08 |
| HIGHsemaj | How effective is the jounral keeping? | 13:08 |
| HIGHsemaj | I have been reading this http://www.realityshifter.com/2007/mastering-the-art-of-lucid-dreaming-full-series/ | 13:09 |
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| HIGHsemaj | For the daily reality check i wrote on my Lighter hah, thought that would be a good one ^.^ | 13:11 |
| F71 | http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ja103525v | 13:13 |
| kanzure | "1,1′-Azobis-1,2,3-triazole: A High-Nitrogen Compound with Stable N8 Structure and Photochromism" | 13:13 |
| F71 | @kanzure, think that microfluidics could make these from some kind of atmospheric chemistry? | 13:13 |
| kanzure | er anything's possible with enough effort? | 13:13 |
| F71 | I'm just interested in seeing something useful and horrifically endo/exothermic being synthesized by automated small-scale reactions | 13:15 |
| HIGHsemaj | O.o | 13:16 |
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| kanzure | F71: what do you think about the dna synthesis project | 13:21 |
| F71 | reading it | 13:22 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, where do we get the initial 9-mer DNA strand? | 13:24 |
| delinquentme | source that? build a bunch and chop them? | 13:24 |
| delinquentme | and how do we attach to the microbead | 13:24 |
| kanzure | microbead attachment is a known protocol.. check protocol-online.org for one | 13:27 |
| kanzure | initial 9mers or w/e will come from a synthesis company | 13:27 |
| delinquentme | and these are being built up a amino acid at a time ... so we need an individual pump for every amino reservoir | 13:27 |
| kanzure | possibly just a drip pump.. and then block the channel, unblock to release some chemicals? not sure | 13:28 |
| delinquentme | i guess we could flush it | 13:28 |
| delinquentme | ... how clean can you get a tube with a water flush? | 13:28 |
| kanzure | in dna synthesis chemistries you usually flush with a cleansing chemical | 13:28 |
| delinquentme | gotya | 13:28 |
| nmz787 | nucleic acid | 13:30 |
| nmz787 | not amino acid | 13:30 |
| kanzure | hah i didn't even catch that | 13:30 |
| nmz787 | you don't need to order from a synth company if we are the synth company | 13:30 |
| nmz787 | :P | 13:30 |
| delinquentme | yeah so we make a bunch of the templates | 13:31 |
| delinquentme | and then reuse them | 13:31 |
| delinquentme | are the beads attached at the beginning of each synthesis | 13:31 |
| delinquentme | or do you do a bunch then pick out 1 to run with | 13:31 |
| delinquentme | also .. it looks like were adding 6 mer nucleic acid sequences | 13:32 |
| delinquentme | so were going to need those bottled | 13:32 |
| delinquentme | ja? | 13:32 |
| kanzure | library items are attached to beads. you take them out and "PCR" the strands off of the beads, then flush this to your reaction chamber | 13:33 |
| nmz787 | that is going to change | 13:33 |
| kanzure | what? | 13:33 |
| nmz787 | (what delinwuent said, not kanzure) | 13:33 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, is PCR the right operation? | 13:33 |
| delinquentme | i mean you're not replicating .. just chopping right? | 13:33 |
| nmz787 | the 6mer addition strategy isn't perfect... only half of it is | 13:33 |
| kanzure | no you are definitely replicating from the library item.. you don't want to use your library supply because then you're boned | 13:34 |
| nmz787 | show him the nicking enzyme diagram | 13:34 |
| nmz787 | thats not in the ppt | 13:34 |
| delinquentme | nmz787, but we need that staggered effect in order to attach the subsequent nucleic acid 6-mer no? | 13:34 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/DNA/nicking-library-method.jpg | 13:34 |
| nmz787 | thats the idea, but there is research that it needs sufficient 3' DNA for the ligase to sit down | 13:34 |
| nmz787 | so I have to rethink things | 13:35 |
| nmz787 | originally i wasn't thinking to ligate the oligos at all, rather hybridize and use the oligos as the PCR template for a few nt | 13:35 |
| nmz787 | so we may have to revert to that in light of the recent findings | 13:36 |
| nmz787 | but that could be even better | 13:36 |
| nmz787 | maybe | 13:36 |
| delinquentme | I dont see whats being synthesized between the operation @ 3 oclock and 8 oclock | 13:36 |
| nmz787 | i dunno, i don't think its a big problem, i just need to sit down and think about it long and hard | 13:36 |
| delinquentme | does the nicking enzyme leave new code? | 13:37 |
| nmz787 | DNA | 13:37 |
| nmz787 | there are two enzymes | 13:37 |
| nmz787 | polymerase, and nicking nuclease | 13:37 |
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| nmz787 | polymerase synthesizers the compliment of the red | 13:37 |
| nmz787 | producing the green | 13:37 |
| nmz787 | then the nicking enzyme cleaves the green which floats into solution | 13:37 |
| nmz787 | and the polymerase goes to work again on the red, synthesizing a green | 13:38 |
| nmz787 | repeat... | 13:38 |
| nmz787 | the oligo is so short, temperature likely can stay constant | 13:38 |
| delinquentme | OHHH this isnt for snythesis .. . this is for production of numerous sequences that we're using as raw inputs FOR the synthesis | 13:38 |
| nmz787 | lowering the temp if you want to stop the reaction | 13:38 |
| nmz787 | well, its biosynthesis | 13:38 |
| nmz787 | :/ | 13:39 |
| delinquentme | ooc am i the EE in this operation? | 13:39 |
| nmz787 | are you? | 13:39 |
| nmz787 | an ee? | 13:39 |
| delinquentme | im not hahah | 13:39 |
| nmz787 | hmm | 13:39 |
| nmz787 | we nee to build a laser cutter first | 13:39 |
| delinquentme | like i can learn | 13:39 |
| delinquentme | and ive built working shit | 13:39 |
| nmz787 | didnt you build that liquid handler? | 13:39 |
| delinquentme | yeah thats what used for? | 13:39 |
| delinquentme | haha yeah i built the lh001 | 13:39 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/delinquentme/LH001 | 13:39 |
| delinquentme | so like i've got some experience | 13:39 |
| kanzure | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZY5IY5CZ1es | 13:40 |
| kanzure | (LH001 vid) | 13:40 |
| delinquentme | ^ | 13:40 |
| delinquentme | but the laser | 13:40 |
| nmz787 | basically we just need an XYZ gantry or XY slide stage | 13:40 |
| nmz787 | i can do the optics | 13:40 |
| nmz787 | already need to | 13:40 |
| delinquentme | but what does it need to burn | 13:40 |
| nmz787 | already getting into it | 13:40 |
| delinquentme | or cut | 13:40 |
| nmz787 | oh | 13:40 |
| nmz787 | PDMS | 13:40 |
| nmz787 | and acrylic | 13:40 |
| delinquentme | imsorry | 13:41 |
| delinquentme | you need a laser cutter for? | 13:41 |
| nmz787 | we'll either use CO2 or a solid state laser at 830nm | 13:41 |
| delinquentme | thats what you mean right | 13:41 |
| nmz787 | making microfluidics quickly | 13:41 |
| delinquentme | ... | 13:41 |
| nmz787 | we cant make DNA without pipes | 13:41 |
| delinquentme | i thought thats what the stanford lab is for | 13:41 |
| kanzure | four day turn around | 13:41 |
| nmz787 | and no one makes a laser cutter for micro scale | 13:42 |
| nmz787 | and much more expensive | 13:42 |
| nmz787 | you start doing that when you are pretty sure a design is decent | 13:42 |
| delinquentme | i guess im missing why we need so many prototypes | 13:42 |
| delinquentme | like build it once .. check it 12 times | 13:42 |
| delinquentme | proto | 13:42 |
| delinquentme | 4 days is fine | 13:42 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, you sound like alex | 13:42 |
| nmz787 | not for what we'll likely need for at least the first 3 months of serious microfluidic work | 13:42 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: alex sounds like ME | 13:42 |
| delinquentme | ZOMG 1 week turnaround .. better buy 20 grand 3rdpinter | 13:42 |
| nmz787 | its not gonna be like that | 13:43 |
| delinquentme | doesnt make sense to me | 13:43 |
| delinquentme | hmmm | 13:43 |
| nmz787 | we will need lots of prototypes | 13:43 |
| delinquentme | whats used to prototype these? | 13:43 |
| nmz787 | there is a lot of integration to do | 13:43 |
| delinquentme | software wise | 13:43 |
| kanzure | there is basically a 0% chance that the first version will do anything at all | 13:43 |
| nmz787 | kanzure says he'll figure out software | 13:43 |
| nmz787 | basically we need custom CAD | 13:43 |
| delinquentme | like i can go start bugging the shit out of people at CMU | 13:43 |
| nmz787 | and ideally we would have some integrated fluidic simulation stuff | 13:44 |
| nmz787 | i don't think its time yet to start going crazy | 13:44 |
| delinquentme | nmz787, but i wanna. | 13:45 |
| nmz787 | first things first... we need pipes | 13:45 |
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| delinquentme | pipes being the microfluidics | 13:45 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, the majority of the microfluidics are simply valve / flow design right? | 13:45 |
| kanzure | right | 13:45 |
| delinquentme | http://www.finelineprototyping.com/ I can call these guys and get some free prototypes | 13:46 |
| delinquentme | also i'd love to design the control software for this once we've got the chemistry down | 13:46 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: have you seen the usb controllers? | 13:47 |
| kanzure | http://www.stanford.edu/group/foundry/Building%20Your%20Own%20Valve%20Controller.html | 13:47 |
| delinquentme | "the" usb controllers? | 13:47 |
| kanzure | https://sites.google.com/a/lbl.gov/microfluidics-lab/valve-controllers/usb-based-controller | 13:47 |
| delinquentme | yeahh you showed me this | 13:48 |
| delinquentme | $600 dollar microcontrollers | 13:48 |
| delinquentme | thats excessive no? | 13:48 |
| kanzure | yes | 13:48 |
| kanzure | should be way cheaper | 13:48 |
| nmz787 | fineline doesnt have any materials i recognize | 13:48 |
| nmz787 | well, for bioengi work | 13:48 |
| nmz787 | polyprop might work | 13:49 |
| delinquentme | nmz787, they've got options for non-reactive for bio | 13:49 |
| delinquentme | i've attempted to order from them before | 13:49 |
| nmz787 | for valving needs to be flexible | 13:49 |
| delinquentme | yeah | 13:49 |
| nmz787 | yeah those controllers are overpriced and suck IMO | 13:50 |
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| nmz787 | but I worked at a high-end EE company for 9months, though I was a lacky... :d | 13:50 |
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| delinquentme | the thing is theres tons of extra stuff there | 13:51 |
| delinquentme | the only EE operations we need are pumps | 13:51 |
| kanzure | you also need to close individual valves | 13:52 |
| delinquentme | http://www.cheme.cmu.edu/people/faculty/sanna.htm | 13:52 |
| delinquentme | this is why i believe in god | 13:52 |
| delinquentme | the chick who works @ CMUs microfluidics lab is CUTE | 13:53 |
| delinquentme | woot. | 13:53 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, but yeah thats just pumps | 13:53 |
| delinquentme | like if we're talking integrated optics for checking flourescent tags thats another thing | 13:53 |
| delinquentme | but we can do pumps fucking cheap | 13:53 |
| delinquentme | nmz787, so you're in the process of building a laser sinterer or printer or some kind of subtractive method? | 13:54 |
| delinquentme | pardon but that seems like tons of work no? | 13:54 |
| delinquentme | what im saying is give me a reason to go flirt with the pretty chemist at CMU | 13:55 |
| delinquentme | OKE? | 13:55 |
| delinquentme | ok. | 13:55 |
| kanzure | we need custom optics anyway on a laser cutter | 13:56 |
| kanzure | so either spend $16k to get the cutter and some special optics | 13:56 |
| kanzure | or just build the cutter how we need it | 13:56 |
| delinquentme | im missing something here | 13:57 |
| delinquentme | why is this needed | 13:57 |
| kanzure | there's no commercial, affordable laser cutter that does 1 micron cuts | 13:57 |
| delinquentme | you're saying for rapid prototyping | 13:57 |
| kanzure | yes? | 13:57 |
| delinquentme | im saying thats ridiculous | 13:57 |
| ThomasEgi | delinquentme, it is not that unrealistic. | 13:58 |
| kanzure | it's also not difficult | 13:58 |
| delinquentme | how many iterations do you need | 13:58 |
| ThomasEgi | blue ray even gets in the nm range | 13:58 |
| delinquentme | 100? | 13:58 |
| delinquentme | ok fine thats 2.5gs | 13:58 |
| delinquentme | and we can start working on chemistry and channel cuts tomorrow | 13:58 |
| kanzure | i want prototyping turn around time of 30 minutes to, at most 2 hours | 13:59 |
| kanzure | not "4 days" | 13:59 |
| poptire | yo kanzure | 14:00 |
| delinquentme | kanz | 14:00 |
| kanzure | poptire: sup | 14:00 |
| delinquentme | thats fucking masturbation | 14:00 |
| poptire | have you spoken to the person in charge of homecmos at all? | 14:00 |
| nmz787 | no way | 14:00 |
| kanzure | poptire: yes | 14:00 |
| delinquentme | we're talking about making syringe pumps for this | 14:00 |
| poptire | i'm interested in it, but it seems quite dead | 14:00 |
| kanzure | poptire: he's in here.. azonenberg | 14:00 |
| nmz787 | i've done microfluidics prep in a clean room | 14:00 |
| delinquentme | and thats hugely less complex | 14:00 |
| nmz787 | but still PITA | 14:00 |
| delinquentme | and you'd say "lets buy that" for a pump | 14:01 |
| nmz787 | rapid prototyping is the way to go to not have to worry about the fab | 14:01 |
| delinquentme | but lets proto the laser | 14:01 |
| delinquentme | thats nute | 14:01 |
| nmz787 | of paying out the ass to get off the ground to pitch to VCs | 14:01 |
| delinquentme | how many fluids do you need | 14:01 |
| nmz787 | well appropriate pumps exist off-shelf | 14:01 |
| kanzure | i think there's at least seven separate chemicals? | 14:01 |
| delinquentme | what im saying is we're not working with 1000+ fluids | 14:01 |
| kanzure | no not 1000 | 14:01 |
| delinquentme | SEVEN | 14:01 |
| delinquentme | how complex can that chip be? | 14:01 |
| kanzure | also if we use enzymes.. | 14:01 |
| nmz787 | closest approximation of what i need is ~$150k | 14:01 |
| kanzure | hahah | 14:01 |
| delinquentme | not at all | 14:01 |
| poptire | is he still working on it? looks like nothing's been updated since october | 14:01 |
| kanzure | azonenberg: ping? | 14:01 |
| nmz787 | then $16k for a shitty version of what i want | 14:01 |
| kanzure | poptire: iirc yes he's still working on it but he's also in college | 14:02 |
| delinquentme | but why do we need that many prototypes | 14:02 |
| delinquentme | the chip isnt complex | 14:02 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: because things just don't work | 14:02 |
| kanzure | hahah | 14:02 |
| poptire | kanzure: out of curiosity, you know where he goes to school? | 14:02 |
| kanzure | poptire: let me check | 14:02 |
| nmz787 | it will be part of a system | 14:02 |
| nmz787 | i'm not aiming to stop at this one chip | 14:02 |
| delinquentme | nmz787, absolutely but the sooner we get a proof of concept | 14:02 |
| kanzure | annnd there's so many things you have to debug with eah prototype | 14:02 |
| delinquentme | i can call labs up | 14:02 |
| delinquentme | and we can go right the customer money | 14:03 |
| kanzure | why call labs up? | 14:03 |
| delinquentme | that! | 14:03 |
| nmz787 | in my experience its just not how building something the right way/engineering works/goes | 14:03 |
| kanzure | we don't even know if it works | 14:03 |
| delinquentme | THAT | 14:03 |
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| delinquentme | nmz787, but im arguing that its not that complex | 14:03 |
| kanzure | really | 14:03 |
| delinquentme | so i need a number of how many channels we're talking about | 14:03 |
| delinquentme | the chip kanzure to mix 7 fluids | 14:03 |
| delinquentme | is not complex | 14:03 |
| kanzure | it's not just "mix 7 fluids" | 14:03 |
| nmz787 | the reason ppl havent done this is because its complex, but IMO worth the hassle in the long run | 14:03 |
| kanzure | it's "route and organize a million droplets" | 14:03 |
| kanzure | so droplet generation has to work | 14:04 |
| kanzure | droplet mixing has to work | 14:04 |
| nmz787 | and because i'm not an old person set in my research interests, who can't just say 'fuck it, lets stop the presses and do it the right way" | 14:04 |
| kanzure | you have to make sure it mixes and has the right temperature | 14:04 |
| delinquentme | droplets is simply channel width no? | 14:04 |
| nmz787 | also generating droplets | 14:04 |
| kanzure | droplet generation requires tweaking | 14:04 |
| kanzure | there's a ton of variables | 14:04 |
| nmz787 | getting PDMS/glass light pipes to work | 14:04 |
| nmz787 | so we can get droplet counting to work | 14:04 |
| nmz787 | and getting that synced with the valving and pumps | 14:04 |
| delinquentme | so what if i called up 100 places with these laser printers | 14:05 |
| nmz787 | there may be two different kinds of pumps | 14:05 |
| nmz787 | and multiple of those | 14:05 |
| delinquentme | and got a place which could give us turn around in a day | 14:05 |
| nmz787 | no one has a micron scale laser cutter | 14:05 |
| delinquentme | can we skip the laser | 14:05 |
| delinquentme | nmz787, they wouldnt advertise microfluidics if they didnt | 14:05 |
| nmz787 | laser printers are shitty | 14:05 |
| nmz787 | not reliable method | 14:05 |
| delinquentme | and on top of that! you're saying no one has one of these and you're going to proto it? | 14:05 |
| delinquentme | ^ that speaks for itself no? | 14:05 |
| nmz787 | no one had an LH001 | 14:05 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: you should have more faith in us | 14:06 |
| nmz787 | didnt hyou proto it? | 14:06 |
| nmz787 | its really not much more complex, maybe less | 14:06 |
| nmz787 | for the laser | 14:06 |
| kanzure | i find your lak of faith disturbing | 14:06 |
| delinquentme | nmz787, there are many liquid handlers | 14:06 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, its not faith lol | 14:06 |
| kanzure | lack of faith http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI8GEidaMMI | 14:06 |
| nmz787 | throughout my life i've made my own tools | 14:06 |
| delinquentme | ... | 14:06 |
| nmz787 | its why i own a hammer, wrenches, and a MIG welder | 14:06 |
| delinquentme | so because thats what you've done | 14:06 |
| delinquentme | thats what you're going to do | 14:06 |
| delinquentme | whats the timeline on this | 14:06 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: no.. it's because we don't want to pay for a laser cutter | 14:07 |
| delinquentme | nmz787, i know we just met | 14:07 |
| kanzure | i estimate 6 months tops until a working prototype (with debugging) | 14:07 |
| delinquentme | but like im trying to get an idea here | 14:07 |
| delinquentme | and "just because" | 14:07 |
| delinquentme | is what the justification is thusfar | 14:07 |
| nmz787 | its because the $16k best laser out there in this exponent isnt right for the jo | 14:07 |
| nmz787 | b | 14:07 |
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| kanzure | delinquentme: feel free to call up people and get customers | 14:07 |
| delinquentme | exponent = resolution ? | 14:07 |
| nmz787 | 16k vs 160k | 14:07 |
| delinquentme | ohhhh | 14:08 |
| delinquentme | how are you finishing the chips | 14:08 |
| nmz787 | http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&ved=0CF8QFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.himt.de%2Fen%2Fproducts%2Fdwl66fs.php&ei=Trh8T-uPOMnV0QHyiIjpCw&usg=AFQjCNEsU4of4ZQEy9cz5UxegCAtK_V9dw&sig2=JrDe9r3op8KQqRM5nMEePw | 14:08 |
| kanzure | a foundry might be able to give us a 1-day turnaround but i doubt it.. they would also probably be pricier than stanford | 14:08 |
| nmz787 | that massive hulk is closer than a $16k laser cutter to what we need | 14:09 |
| delinquentme | no first go at a laser cutter or whatever this is will give us something production ready | 14:09 |
| nmz787 | but also wayyyyy over qualified for the job | 14:09 |
| nmz787 | its not a concern to me | 14:09 |
| ThomasEgi | anyone knows how much piezo xy-tables go for? | 14:09 |
| nmz787 | i need to develop my skill with optics for a multitude of reasons | 14:09 |
| nmz787 | the XYZ is done as far as a laser cutter goes | 14:10 |
| nmz787 | EMC, all that crap | 14:10 |
| delinquentme | 1 thats a stupid-small resolution | 14:10 |
| nmz787 | even then, if kanzure gets his CAD shit together, I can write a simple controllers | 14:10 |
| ThomasEgi | z is comparebly easy to do in DIY way | 14:10 |
| delinquentme | how are they going to be ready made out of the machine | 14:10 |
| kanzure | they? | 14:10 |
| kanzure | what | 14:10 |
| delinquentme | the chips | 14:10 |
| nmz787 | they aren't finished | 14:10 |
| kanzure | they aren't.. you have a bonding step | 14:10 |
| nmz787 | then you put the lime in the coconut | 14:11 |
| nmz787 | i mean, hook it up to the pumps | 14:11 |
| delinquentme | yes and you're saying that stepping and everything else | 14:11 |
| delinquentme | on a DIY CNC machine | 14:11 |
| kanzure | no the bonding would probably be manual | 14:11 |
| delinquentme | will cut smooth channels | 14:11 |
| delinquentme | at this resolution | 14:11 |
| delinquentme | like i cant see it | 14:11 |
| nmz787 | no | 14:11 |
| kanzure | yes we can get smooth cuts with 0.01 micron stepping | 14:11 |
| kanzure | or whatever | 14:11 |
| nmz787 | i have already done 3D scanning with an interferometer on PDMS cut with a tradition CO2 laser optics setup | 14:11 |
| nmz787 | ULS versalaser | 14:12 |
| nmz787 | the problem is that they werent doing it right | 14:12 |
| nmz787 | on a macro/meso level you can't tell because they're made to cut wood/acrylic | 14:12 |
| delinquentme | like thats a finished machine | 14:12 |
| delinquentme | meso? | 14:12 |
| nmz787 | but the step size, travel speed is just too big | 14:12 |
| nmz787 | and they dont do any microstepping | 14:13 |
| nmz787 | meso=medium | 14:13 |
| nmz787 | between macro and micro | 14:13 |
| delinquentme | the chem protocol isnt even validated yet | 14:13 |
| nmz787 | which? | 14:13 |
| kanzure | oligo synthesis has been done before in the literature | 14:13 |
| kanzure | ligation is a more experimental thing that we'd like to try | 14:13 |
| delinquentme | in the literature != production ready | 14:14 |
| kanzure | exactly | 14:14 |
| nmz787 | you said validated | 14:14 |
| kanzure | that's why we will need many prototypes | 14:14 |
| nmz787 | it has been validated | 14:14 |
| kanzure | right | 14:14 |
| delinquentme | thats mixing shit | 14:14 |
| nmz787 | no one has picked it up for production | 14:14 |
| nmz787 | because they aren't disgusted like kanzure and i | 14:14 |
| delinquentme | not building the most accurate laser cutter this side of 160g | 14:14 |
| nmz787 | i never said it would be most accurate | 14:14 |
| kanzure | man people think things are harder or more expensive than they actually are | 14:15 |
| nmz787 | 1/4 40 lead screws and 256 microstepping steppers should be fine for what we need | 14:15 |
| delinquentme | if i could cut my right nut off | 14:15 |
| delinquentme | id slam it on the table | 14:15 |
| nsh | kanzure: don't bemoan that fact before it starts paying your living | 14:15 |
| delinquentme | and say there is no way in hell | 14:15 |
| delinquentme | that youll even be CUTTING | 14:15 |
| delinquentme | in 6 months | 14:15 |
| kanzure | nsh: i charge by the value i provide not the material cost of bytes | 14:15 |
| delinquentme | its just more STUFF | 14:15 |
| delinquentme | before we get to the actual work at hand | 14:15 |
| nsh | kanzure: fair play :) | 14:15 |
| delinquentme | are we building laser cutters or DNA synthesizers? | 14:16 |
| nmz787 | but then we already have a product | 14:16 |
| delinquentme | because right now we're fucking halcyoning it | 14:16 |
| nmz787 | a microfluidics rapid prototyping machine | 14:16 |
| delinquentme | thats for you kanz | 14:16 |
| kanzure | even halcyon had a machine shop | 14:16 |
| kanzure | and a biology lab | 14:16 |
| kanzure | and a chemistry lab | 14:16 |
| kanzure | and then their SEM room | 14:16 |
| delinquentme | they're funded. | 14:17 |
| delinquentme | sorry | 14:17 |
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| kanzure | so? | 14:17 |
| delinquentme | if we landed $150 | 14:17 |
| kanzure | don't worry about the money/costs | 14:17 |
| kanzure | that's MY job | 14:17 |
| delinquentme | it sure as shit should not be spent building a laser cutter | 14:17 |
| delinquentme | this is a hobby | 14:17 |
| kanzure | laser cutter ain't going to cost much | 14:17 |
| delinquentme | this is not a business | 14:17 |
| nmz787 | this isn't really helping. I thought you would think putting the laser cutter together would be cake after your Lh001 | 14:17 |
| delinquentme | nmz787, like i like the idea | 14:17 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: yes right now we're just prototyping | 14:17 |
| delinquentme | down the road yes | 14:17 |
| kanzure | we don't have a product to sell customers, so that's why i'm not selling it | 14:18 |
| delinquentme | but the laser cutter is a undertaking | 14:18 |
| delinquentme | thats between us | 14:18 |
| delinquentme | and product | 14:18 |
| kanzure | maybe it's not a product | 14:18 |
| nmz787 | right but its the right way to do things | 14:18 |
| delinquentme | "right way" | 14:18 |
| delinquentme | is subjective | 14:18 |
| kanzure | well if you have a $160k laser cutter please let me know | 14:18 |
| nmz787 | we will drown in fees before we ever get shit to work if we send out to stanford for evey chip | 14:18 |
| delinquentme | we need a feature list for the chip | 14:18 |
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| delinquentme | because i have to be underestimating how complex it is | 14:19 |
| nmz787 | already in the literature | 14:19 |
| kanzure | nmz787: to be fair it will probably be our own design? | 14:19 |
| ParahSailin | laser is 160k? | 14:19 |
| kanzure | ParahSailin: typical laser is 16k but we need special optics | 14:19 |
| kanzure | ParahSailin: so we're building our own mini laser cutter | 14:19 |
| kanzure | because it's cheap enough to just build it | 14:19 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: right, but we're definitely taking 2-5 devices and integrating into one chip | 14:19 |
| kanzure | rather than buying some crap | 14:19 |
| kanzure | nmz787: well that too.. (down the line) | 14:19 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: right, and the end of the line is the product | 14:20 |
| kanzure | heh | 14:20 |
| katsmeow-afk | [OffTopic] when this topic is over, can someone please describe a laser that will melt the ends of the copper wire as shown in http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/hsc/hsc/real_motors/large_images/DSC00079.jpg | 14:20 |
| ParahSailin | inkjet photolithography mask, photolithography out some su-8 molds | 14:20 |
| ParahSailin | soft lithography your pdms offa that shit | 14:20 |
| nmz787 | which is why i think it is worth it to invest once in PDMS prototyping | 14:20 |
| kanzure | ParahSailin: takes a bit too long for my tastes | 14:20 |
| ParahSailin | vs 160k, what is greater net present value? | 14:21 |
| nmz787 | no | 14:21 |
| nmz787 | not if we build our own | 14:21 |
| kanzure | it doesn't cost us 160k to build our own | 14:21 |
| kanzure | repeat: it is cheaper to just build it than to buy it | 14:21 |
| ParahSailin | 16k plus optics? | 14:21 |
| kanzure | 16k plus optics is buying a standard laser cutter | 14:21 |
| nmz787 | we'll probably end up finding a XY stage on ebay for $150 or something, the optics won't be more than $200 or $300 | 14:21 |
| kanzure | albeit, 16k is a "new" cutter. i bought a laser cutter once for $600 but it had like 1mm resolution at best | 14:21 |
| delinquentme | what turn around time do you need to abandon the laser cutter | 14:21 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, nmz787 | 14:22 |
| nmz787 | ? | 14:22 |
| delinquentme | on a prototype | 14:22 |
| nmz787 | i want within the day | 14:22 |
| kanzure | overnight? | 14:22 |
| ParahSailin | how much labor and cash will the laser cutter take | 14:22 |
| kanzure | ParahSailin: <$15k | 14:22 |
| nmz787 | 10-20 hours of parts finding online and calling dealers, etc | 14:23 |
| kanzure | 10-20 hours of arguing with me about what color it should be | 14:23 |
| nmz787 | 20-40 hours to go from parts to working gantry | 14:23 |
| ParahSailin | i think its cool, you guys gonna open source that design? | 14:23 |
| kanzure | hell yeah | 14:23 |
| nmz787 | another 40-100 hours for software (custom microfluidic cad software, and the motor controllers) | 14:24 |
| kanzure | uh plus "possibly weeks" for various delivery times | 14:24 |
| ParahSailin | kickstarter or glbse that shit | 14:24 |
| nmz787 | hmm | 14:24 |
| kanzure | ParahSailin: nah we don't need kickstarter | 14:24 |
| ParahSailin | free money | 14:24 |
| kanzure | not really | 14:24 |
| kanzure | then we have to make a crapload of stickers, give 5% to amazon, give 5% to kickstarter.. | 14:25 |
| kanzure | that's starting to sound like work | 14:25 |
| ParahSailin | glbse it then | 14:25 |
| kanzure | glbse? | 14:25 |
| ParahSailin | bitcoin stock exchange | 14:25 |
| delinquentme | specifically what about making one chip per iteration and checking the shit out of it | 14:25 |
| delinquentme | is so ridiculous to you guys | 14:25 |
| delinquentme | how many variables does that $250 / pop make dissappear | 14:25 |
| kanzure | have you ever written code | 14:25 |
| kanzure | where you run your code and you have an error | 14:26 |
| kanzure | so you fix your error and run it again | 14:26 |
| delinquentme | kanzure | 14:26 |
| delinquentme | this chip | 14:26 |
| kanzure | now imagine it takes 24 huors to run it again | 14:26 |
| delinquentme | is not code. | 14:26 |
| delinquentme | this chip is not fucking code | 14:26 |
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| delinquentme | to compare it to code | 14:26 |
| delinquentme | is ludicrous | 14:26 |
| ParahSailin | when i was doing microfluidics we only ever had to make like 3 iterations of a mask | 14:26 |
| kanzure | ParahSailin: yes but you probably had people that knew what they were doing | 14:26 |
| F71 | When I'm protoboarding something, I spend most of the time screwing it up and trying to figure out workarounds | 14:26 |
| kanzure | yep | 14:26 |
| kanzure | ParahSailin: please elaborate | 14:27 |
| ParahSailin | delinquentme, i think a cheap microfluidic patterning system has some value for other projects as well | 14:27 |
| delinquentme | ParahSailin, absolutely | 14:27 |
| ParahSailin | so while its a "delay" in the context of this one | 14:27 |
| delinquentme | but are we making synthesizers or novel lasers | 14:27 |
| ParahSailin | i can see it having good value | 14:27 |
| kanzure | ParahSailin: so who designed your masks | 14:28 |
| nmz787 | parahsailin: were you working with longtime engineers or any phds? | 14:28 |
| delinquentme | yes but were inventing new technology when we could be working on real shit | 14:28 |
| kanzure | laser cutters are very well known.. not new at all | 14:28 |
| delinquentme | sorry i dont mean that its not real | 14:28 |
| nmz787 | delinwuentme: both IMO | 14:28 |
| ParahSailin | i was working under a research scientist (phd) | 14:28 |
| delinquentme | but its not as close to the bottom line as making the chips is | 14:28 |
| kanzure | ParahSailin: did he do the masks? | 14:28 |
| ParahSailin | the masks were real simple though | 14:28 |
| delinquentme | nmz787, you are correct | 14:28 |
| kanzure | what were your chips | 14:28 |
| ParahSailin | just autocad stuff | 14:28 |
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| kanzure | yeah but what did they do | 14:28 |
| ParahSailin | draw 100 micron channels | 14:29 |
| kanzure | can you describe it | 14:29 |
| delinquentme | better yet do you have schematics? | 14:29 |
| ParahSailin | like lines, curvy lines, reservoirs, i linked the paper at one point -- is it in your papers2 dir? | 14:29 |
| kanzure | ok one sec | 14:29 |
| nmz787 | IMO we might need to have at least one or two peristaltic pumps | 14:30 |
| F71 | There are decent peristalic pumps in a swiffer wetjet | 14:30 |
| delinquentme | TIL | 14:30 |
| kanzure | http://gnusha.org/logs/parah.txt | 14:31 |
| nmz787 | PDMS peristaltic pumps | 14:31 |
| ParahSailin | bbiab | 14:31 |
| kanzure | which link was it | 14:31 |
| nmz787 | g2g to class | 14:31 |
| nmz787 | bbl | 14:31 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: maybe you should post to mems-talk asking for quick turnaround | 14:33 |
| delinquentme | google group? | 14:34 |
| kanzure | no it's hosted elsewhere | 14:35 |
| delinquentme | after the sequence is built up | 14:36 |
| delinquentme | how do we cut it from its bead and isolate only the sequence we're after | 14:36 |
| kanzure | wash it with a particular chemical | 14:36 |
| kanzure | then you send it off to sequencing.. | 14:36 |
| delinquentme | are we using the same initial bead + template for all sequences? | 14:36 |
| kanzure | yes? | 14:37 |
| delinquentme | restriction enzyme | 14:38 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: the restriction enzyme method will only be used for the ligation strategy | 14:38 |
| kanzure | chemical oligo synthesis (with the crazy number of chemicals) does not use enzymes anywhere | 14:38 |
| delinquentme | correct | 14:39 |
| delinquentme | 400 solutions | 14:39 |
| kanzure | 400?! | 14:39 |
| kanzure | no it's more like 7-12 | 14:39 |
| delinquentme | for the nucleicacid pairs? | 14:40 |
| kanzure | yes? | 14:40 |
| delinquentme | 20*20 no? | 14:40 |
| delinquentme | then all the other ones | 14:40 |
| kanzure | you're thinking amino acids | 14:40 |
| delinquentme | yeah amino | 14:40 |
| delinquentme | sorry | 14:40 |
| kanzure | only four nucleic acids | 14:40 |
| delinquentme | so we've got 2-mer sets of aminos | 14:40 |
| kanzure | 20 amino acids. we're not working with amino acids. | 14:40 |
| delinquentme | we need 1 of every combination | 14:40 |
| kanzure | nope.. no amino acids | 14:40 |
| delinquentme | arent all the additive 6-mers amino acids? | 14:41 |
| kanzure | no those are nucleic acids | 14:41 |
| delinquentme | the sequences we use to build the chain? | 14:41 |
| kanzure | AAAAA, AAAAT, AAATT, AATTT, ... | 14:41 |
| delinquentme | last page here: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/nucleic/su-slides.pdf | 14:41 |
| delinquentme | middle slide TCTTAC | 14:42 |
| kanzure | right | 14:42 |
| delinquentme | 6-mer sequence 2-mer amino | 14:42 |
| delinquentme | those are injected into that bath as complete sequences no? | 14:42 |
| kanzure | thymine cytosine thymien thymine adenosine cytosine | 14:42 |
| delinquentme | yes | 14:42 |
| kanzure | those are all nucleotides | 14:42 |
| delinquentme | how are those built | 14:43 |
| delinquentme | those are nucleotides AND amino acids no? | 14:43 |
| delinquentme | 6 nucleotides .. 2 amino acids | 14:43 |
| kanzure | that diagram is explaining the ligation library method where you have 4000 droplets on the chip of different DNA sequences that you plug together | 14:43 |
| kanzure | no. no aminos! | 14:43 |
| delinquentme | 3 base pairs = 1 amino acid | 14:44 |
| delinquentme | no? | 14:44 |
| kanzure | nope | 14:44 |
| F71 | what about guanine? | 14:44 |
| kanzure | 3 base pairs can code for a "codon" | 14:44 |
| kanzure | fuck guanine! nobody likes guanine. what? | 14:44 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: an amino acid is not made up of nucleotides.. nucleotides are just used by cells to remember /which/ amino acid to use when constructing a protein | 14:45 |
| kanzure | so think about this.. there are 20 types of amino acids right? | 14:45 |
| delinquentme | ok | 14:45 |
| delinquentme | yeh | 14:45 |
| kanzure | well a 3-sequence strand has 4^3 possibilities | 14:45 |
| kanzure | 4^3 is waaay bigger than 20 | 14:45 |
| delinquentme | each has some number of nucleotides which code for that amino acid | 14:46 |
| F71 | I've never heard of thymien, what is this dickery | 14:46 |
| kanzure | hehe | 14:46 |
| delinquentme | ok so back to the assembly kanzure | 14:46 |
| kanzure | F71: it's german | 14:47 |
| delinquentme | in what kmer sized blocks | 14:47 |
| delinquentme | are we adding nucloetides in | 14:47 |
| kanzure | in the ligation synthesis method outlined in those slides.. it's just a 6mer being added to the growing strand | 14:47 |
| kanzure | once you get up to >60mer you can use pcr to assemble things based on hybridization | 14:47 |
| delinquentme | so we need reservoirs of each of those | 14:48 |
| kanzure | or you can ontinue using ligation of course | 14:48 |
| delinquentme | whatever mer is being added | 14:48 |
| kanzure | sure.. so that's why i think droplets are the way to go | 14:48 |
| kanzure | you can just store droplets everywhere | 14:48 |
| delinquentme | whatever 6mer is being added | 14:48 |
| kanzure | like in a first-in first-out droplet queue for the library | 14:48 |
| delinquentme | can you just take a droplet of As and Cs | 14:48 |
| delinquentme | and they'll bond? | 14:49 |
| delinquentme | surely not | 14:49 |
| kanzure | no you need more chemistry than that | 14:49 |
| delinquentme | yeah | 14:49 |
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| delinquentme | kanzure, the more chemistry part? | 14:51 |
| delinquentme | like what is that process | 14:51 |
| delinquentme | heating it? | 14:51 |
| delinquentme | surely thatll bond some of them | 14:51 |
| nsh | ligation is an occult art | 14:51 |
| nsh | you tweak things on very expensive equipment, wait for hours, repeat for the next four days | 14:52 |
| delinquentme | like i still dont have a clear idea as to the inputs required for the synthesis | 14:53 |
| ParahSailin | phone interview | 14:57 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: read here.. http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/DNA/ | 14:57 |
| ParahSailin | cant wait to be not unemployed | 14:57 |
| kanzure | ParahSailin: email me a resume kanzure@gmail.com | 14:58 |
| ParahSailin | sure, what you got? | 14:58 |
| kanzure | things come and go | 14:59 |
| ParahSailin | how complex do you see the microfluidics being? | 15:01 |
| ParahSailin | this is the thing that has to valve and route a power of 4 different oligos? | 15:01 |
| kanzure | yes | 15:03 |
| katsmeow-afk | "route a power" ? | 15:03 |
| kanzure | i haven't done the whole layout yet but i imagine i will need to be able to control lots of wash lines, different lines for different chemicals (maybe), and be able to move droplets out of a first-in first-out channel | 15:03 |
| kanzure | a power of 4 | 15:03 |
| kanzure | 4^6 different 6mers | 15:03 |
| kanzure | (or whatever) | 15:04 |
| katsmeow-afk | is the control area made of a flexable material? | 15:04 |
| delinquentme | also for the beads to build up like they're shown there will need to be flow through at the Xed channels | 15:04 |
| kanzure | ParahSailin: for the non-ligation-based-design which, imho we should probably try first, just the chemical oligo method.. it will probably be slightly less complicated but not significantly so | 15:04 |
| ParahSailin | thats.. challenging | 15:04 |
| delinquentme | katsmeow-afk, yeah they expand with pressure to open/close | 15:04 |
| kanzure | 4^6 droplets? nah | 15:04 |
| kanzure | don't worry about that for now | 15:05 |
| katsmeow-afk | delinquentme, you have that mechanical motion solved? | 15:05 |
| ParahSailin | droplets.. even more challenging | 15:05 |
| delinquentme | katsmeow-afk, its just pump pressure | 15:05 |
| katsmeow-afk | ok | 15:05 |
| delinquentme | yeah as pressure + the close off channel swells | 15:06 |
| F71 | What about using piezo-based pumps? | 15:06 |
| kanzure | i don't imagine pumps will be a problem | 15:06 |
| F71 | k | 15:06 |
| ParahSailin | my old boss was pretty adamant about electo-osmosis for flow -- i dont know how correct he is | 15:06 |
| kanzure | ParahSailin: i did an electro-osmotic flow cfd simulation once.. | 15:07 |
| F71 | ONCE | 15:07 |
| kanzure | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPY84NelFO4 | 15:07 |
| ParahSailin | pressure driven flow has problems with the deformation of pdms | 15:07 |
| kanzure | why do i have 2000 views on that | 15:08 |
| katsmeow-afk | dunno about the pumps, but for 1000's of valves, controlling a pressure (which operates the valves) using electrorheologic system might be really cheap and instantaneous | 15:08 |
| ParahSailin | 1000s of valves just sounds scary to fab | 15:08 |
| katsmeow-afk | it would be scarey, but with no movng parts, it can be fabbed on a cnc mill automagically | 15:09 |
| F71 | Are you planning to have these 6mers in resovoirs? | 15:09 |
| kanzure | i don't know what the count will be | 15:09 |
| kanzure | F71: nope.. in droplets in a first-in first-out channel | 15:09 |
| kanzure | 6mers attached to beads in droplets | 15:09 |
| kanzure | each droplet has a different 6mer population | 15:09 |
| ParahSailin | oh macro sized valves? | 15:09 |
| kanzure | ParahSailin: no i mean junctions.. like pdms pressure valves | 15:10 |
| katsmeow-afk | if your material lines are on the top of a surface, the control system can be on the bottom with "vias" drilled to connect them as needed | 15:10 |
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| ParahSailin | the chips we made usually had 6 or 8 via reservoirs | 15:11 |
| kanzure | ah sounds very simple | 15:11 |
| kanzure | ParahSailin: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/nucleic/su-slides.pdf | 15:11 |
| ParahSailin | and still very difficult to fabricate | 15:11 |
| kanzure | you said only 3 prototypes :P | 15:12 |
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| kanzure | yo yashgaroth.. backlog stuff | 15:13 |
| yashgaroth | aight | 15:13 |
| ParahSailin | could you maybe do p-amid chemistry on chip? | 15:14 |
| katsmeow-afk | ok, i was just thinking of the control devices for the valve pressure control, sure the valve pressure operates the pdms, but you still have no control of the pressure that operates those valves, and for an array of 100's or 1000's, i think the electrorheology scales nicely down to the mvt system, can even be mounted near it on the same substrate/carrier, and the computer/control-fluid-pressure has no moving parts | 15:14 |
| kanzure | yes that's the irst plan | 15:14 |
| kanzure | *first | 15:14 |
| kanzure | chemical oligo synthesis first. then ligation when we show that our ligation strategy doesn't suck. | 15:15 |
| ParahSailin | i dont know about electrorheology in microfluidics | 15:15 |
| kanzure | katsmeow-afk: https://sites.google.com/a/lbl.gov/microfluidics-lab/valve-controllers/usb-based-controller | 15:15 |
| katsmeow-afk | selenoid valves, ouch | 15:16 |
| katsmeow-afk | "This controller provides valve switching times of 50ms or more", when i said "instant", i meant nanosecs | 15:17 |
| delinquentme | ok i gotta go make walks | 15:18 |
| delinquentme | brb | 15:18 |
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| katsmeow-afk | plus no moving parts = the "selenoid" in the rheology device is merely two metalised strips | 15:18 |
| ParahSailin | what about the nanopore membrane filter as valve | 15:21 |
| kanzure | how do you switch it? | 15:22 |
| katsmeow-afk | kanzure, which? | 15:22 |
| ybit | fenn: don't you use kde? | 15:22 |
| kanzure | katsmeow-afk: ParahSailin's nanopore valve | 15:23 |
| kanzure | ybit: he has switched to the dark side and uses gnome now | 15:23 |
| ParahSailin | you "switch" it by applying voltage across it -- the only way fluid current will flow through it is the electromotive force | 15:23 |
| kanzure | uh but now we have to get electricity to it somehow | 15:23 |
| ParahSailin | no amount of pressure will make fluid flow through it | 15:23 |
| katsmeow-afk | hence the metalised side walls | 15:24 |
| ParahSailin | just connectivity with your fluid channels | 15:24 |
| * ybit can't think of any evil jedi who look like fenn | 15:24 | |
| kanzure | yes but the fabrication process will need to have something about embedding wires :| | 15:24 |
| katsmeow-afk | there's nearly zero current involved, dip electroplating would suffice | 15:24 |
| ParahSailin | no thats not what i mean | 15:24 |
| * katsmeow-afk points kanzure to the 1960's wire stiching machines | 15:25 | |
| ParahSailin | X is two channels crossing \ is one layer, middle layer is your membrane filter, / is other channel | 15:25 |
| ParahSailin | voltage applied at the four reservoirs controls the flow and the "gating" | 15:26 |
| katsmeow-afk | umm, you don't mean to apply voltage thru the fluid you are working with, right? | 15:26 |
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| katsmeow-afk | umm, you don't mean to apply voltage thru the fluid you are working with, right? | 15:29 |
| ParahSailin_ | we did that, yah | 15:29 |
| katsmeow-afk | not all materials wil respond "properly" to voltage across them | 15:29 |
| ParahSailin_ | the stuff we used was pretty low ionic strength, i dunno if thats a constraint here | 15:30 |
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| katsmeow-afk | erg, i need to go ~40ft afk , bbl | 15:31 |
| kanzure | ParahSailin_: how does that work with multiple gates? | 15:34 |
| ParahSailin_ | heh, we only ever needed one gate | 15:35 |
| ParahSailin_ | so maybe ignore this suggestion | 15:35 |
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| kanzure | someone has really screwed up sciencedirect | 15:54 |
| kanzure | http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022103109001164 | 15:54 |
| kanzure | ads are 30% of the screen | 15:55 |
| kanzure | footer is 30% of the screen | 15:55 |
| kanzure | header is 20% of the screen | 15:55 |
| kanzure | 20% is the content | 15:55 |
| ParahSailin_ | oh yah they really did | 15:55 |
| ParahSailin_ | how is the pirate science repository coming | 15:56 |
| kanzure | brb fixing a car | 15:57 |
| ybit | ParahSailin_: eh, link? | 15:58 |
| ParahSailin_ | kanzure's project | 15:58 |
| ybit | ah | 15:58 |
| * ybit steps away from computer | 15:59 | |
| -!- _0bitcount [~ulises11@213.37.203.109.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 16:02 | |
| strangewarp | lollin' at Alex Knapp railing against Dyson Spheres as though they're a mainstream end-goal | 16:15 |
| katsmeow-afk | lets see a dyson ring happen first | 16:17 |
| Mokbortolan_ | is anybody familiar with the "MyBasis" device? | 16:23 |
| Mokbortolan_ | 'cos they're getting sued by BodyMedia: http://news.priorsmart.com/bodymedia-v-basis-science-l5mD/#Complaint | 16:24 |
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| fenn | words words words | 16:57 |
| fenn | i like the electrorheology idea | 17:06 |
| katsmeow-afk | in the long line from the valve to the selenoid, how do you purge the microtube of air? | 17:07 |
| fenn | Mokbortolan_ has basis even released a product yet? why would you sue someone without a product? | 17:12 |
| fenn | i'm rather sick of hearing about it actually, nevermind | 17:12 |
| fenn | make my own god damn watch | 17:13 |
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| nmz787 | back | 17:14 |
| fenn | nmz787: i don't expect we'll have to write any code for the motion controller | 17:18 |
| nmz787 | whats out there? the EMC type stuff? | 17:18 |
| fenn | even CAM should be fairly simple, as it's just lines | 17:18 |
| fenn | yeah EMC will be fine for this | 17:18 |
| nmz787 | is it extendable? | 17:19 |
| fenn | yes | 17:19 |
| nmz787 | cool, i've been wanting to do some custom Z direction stuff with PWMing the laser and/or defocusing the beam during a write... not for microfluidics per se (though I think kanzure sent me a doc recently that made a tapered channel in Z space that way) | 17:20 |
| nmz787 | like a wheelchair ramp | 17:20 |
| fenn | what's a tapered channel for? | 17:22 |
| nmz787 | i imagine instead of through-layer hard-angle connections | 17:23 |
| nmz787 | but with defocusing you can control the cut width at the same time | 17:23 |
| nmz787 | so it could also taper in the X or Y | 17:24 |
| nmz787 | but like i said, not necessarily for fluidics | 17:24 |
| nmz787 | just for lasering in general | 17:24 |
| fenn | i dont understand "instead of through-layer hard-angle connections" | 17:24 |
| fenn | is this to control the turbulence when switching layers? | 17:25 |
| nmz787 | to go from one layer of the fluidics to the other | 17:25 |
| nmz787 | you need to go through them | 17:25 |
| nmz787 | its a PCB term | 17:25 |
| fenn | right | 17:25 |
| fenn | like a via | 17:25 |
| nmz787 | yeah | 17:25 |
| nmz787 | i know that in some cases sharp angles mess with flow | 17:26 |
| fenn | well anyway, Z axis is standard | 17:26 |
| nmz787 | so it would be a nice software function for the custom CAD | 17:26 |
| nmz787 | or CAM | 17:26 |
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| fenn | why do we need 6"x6" travel? | 17:31 |
| fenn | i'm seeing a lot of ~2.5"x2.5" stuff | 17:31 |
| nmz787 | it would suck to build it too small | 17:31 |
| nmz787 | esp since we can't really do more than 2 or 3 fluidic layers with the PDMS cut and transfer method | 17:32 |
| nmz787 | the droplet library will be pretty big | 17:32 |
| nmz787 | i've calculated the dimensions before once | 17:32 |
| nmz787 | lemme thinkg | 17:33 |
| fenn | how are droplets stored anyway? | 17:33 |
| nmz787 | in a channel | 17:34 |
| nmz787 | next to each other/separated by some oil | 17:34 |
| nmz787 | with no space between drops, 25000 drops of 20 microns each yields 50cm of channel | 17:35 |
| kanzure | nothing like pushing a car! roar | 17:35 |
| nmz787 | with 5 microns of wall between channels, thats 25 microns per channel width including the walls | 17:35 |
| nmz787 | make that into a square and its 3.55cm on side | 17:36 |
| fenn | so the idea is to shuffle them back and forth like a choo choo train? | 17:36 |
| nmz787 | so i'd say we want at least 10cm * 10cm of writeable space | 17:36 |
| fenn | then push it out the side when correctly aligned | 17:36 |
| nmz787 | make it 15cm per side for good measure | 17:36 |
| nmz787 | basically | 17:36 |
| nmz787 | have a light-based droplet counterl | 17:36 |
| kanzure | if you want the one in the middle then you pop off the first half and tack them on to the end | 17:36 |
| fenn | definitely want a counter | 17:37 |
| kanzure | except for the one that you want | 17:37 |
| nmz787 | i originally thought something like a circle | 17:37 |
| delinquentme | http://scholarometer.indiana.edu/ | 17:37 |
| fenn | can't pump a circle | 17:37 |
| nmz787 | with a junction perpendicular to the tangent | 17:37 |
| nmz787 | and a peristaltic pump to keep the droplets moving around the circle | 17:37 |
| nmz787 | but we thought of a bunch of variations | 17:37 |
| kanzure | i think a straight line would be fine.. it might turn out that you can't pump 50k droplets at once | 17:38 |
| nmz787 | you can def pump a circle | 17:38 |
| nmz787 | i've done it b4 | 17:38 |
| fenn | um. how? | 17:38 |
| nmz787 | peristaltic pump | 17:38 |
| fenn | hmm | 17:39 |
| nmz787 | need 3 'fingers' | 17:39 |
| nmz787 | or solenoids, or a cam shaft with 3 lobes phased right | 17:39 |
| fenn | i'm imagining some crazy zigzag thing and a peristaltic pump seems troublesome | 17:39 |
| nmz787 | well the other option is some kind of thing that is spurting waste fluid | 17:40 |
| nmz787 | just to move droplets around | 17:40 |
| nmz787 | not even to do chemistry | 17:40 |
| kanzure | maybe a giant grid array will be doable but i sorta doubt it | 17:40 |
| fenn | you only need 2 "pistons" full of fluid | 17:40 |
| fenn | kanzure: i was originally thinking grid array but this sounds more feasible | 17:40 |
| nmz787 | back and forth? | 17:40 |
| fenn | right, like a slinky | 17:41 |
| nmz787 | grid array? | 17:41 |
| nmz787 | grid==matrix? matrix of arrays? | 17:41 |
| fenn | yeah, like chinese checkers | 17:41 |
| kanzure | sorry.. grid array just means "a lot of addressable cells with tons and tons of valves" | 17:41 |
| kanzure | grid, array, matrix, thing | 17:42 |
| nmz787 | oh | 17:42 |
| nmz787 | i dont like it as much as 'circular'/circulating buffer | 17:42 |
| nmz787 | butttt | 17:42 |
| kanzure | ok cool | 17:42 |
| kanzure | no i prefer FIFO (first-in first-out) | 17:42 |
| nmz787 | we'd really need to figure out cheap ass valves | 17:42 |
| kanzure | but again: i do think it might turn out that you can't pump 50k droplets at once | 17:42 |
| nmz787 | <$0.5/each | 17:42 |
| nmz787 | maybe | 17:42 |
| kanzure | you won't have the same velocity at the front as the end of the channel | 17:43 |
| fenn | what you mean can't pump 50k droplets at once? | 17:43 |
| kanzure | each additional droplet or micron will have some amount of resistance | 17:43 |
| nmz787 | i would think just add another peristatlic pump or two | 17:43 |
| nmz787 | or three | 17:43 |
| kanzure | so if the force is so strong at the front.. you end up bursting the droplets and smashing them into each other? | 17:43 |
| nmz787 | thats still less actuators than a shitload of valves | 17:43 |
| fenn | i think this is one of those things where you just do the experiment and see | 17:43 |
| fenn | btw this is oil/water droplets right? | 17:44 |
| kanzure | i am a little angry that i can't find a generic paper about the maximum droplet load of a N-lengthed channel | 17:44 |
| kanzure | seems like an obvious question | 17:44 |
| kanzure | yes water-in-oil | 17:44 |
| fenn | ok here's something i'm worried about | 17:44 |
| nmz787 | fenn: right, which is another reason i think we need custom cutter | 17:44 |
| fenn | if the droplets are touching the side walls, you get contamination | 17:44 |
| nmz787 | so we can do lots of tests and iterations, we're bound to fail a lot | 17:45 |
| kanzure | there's a "no-slip boundary condition" | 17:45 |
| fenn | if the droplets are not touching the walls, they're just sort of floating around | 17:45 |
| kanzure | the water at the walls isn't actually moving | 17:45 |
| nmz787 | hmm, sheath fluid? | 17:45 |
| nmz787 | that would require a pump to pump | 17:45 |
| nmz787 | rather than peristaltic | 17:45 |
| nmz787 | though... in a channel long enough, the pressure may get really high, too high for PDMS to withstand | 17:45 |
| nmz787 | 50 cm long channel | 17:46 |
| nmz787 | i dunno | 17:46 |
| kanzure | yeah we need to do the math on the required pressure | 17:46 |
| nmz787 | that seems like something already published | 17:46 |
| kanzure | on a 50 cm channel (or w/e) | 17:46 |
| fenn | make channel wider then | 17:46 |
| kanzure | i haven't seen a publication on that yet (wtf) | 17:46 |
| nmz787 | but otherwise i think the multi peristaltic pump would solve that | 17:46 |
| nmz787 | split it up into separate zones | 17:46 |
| kanzure | papers! they must be found. | 17:49 |
| nsh | why don't you ask a manufacturer? | 17:50 |
| kanzure | who? | 17:50 |
| nsh | kanzure: ask someone who manufactures microfluidics channels about the droplet load | 17:51 |
| nsh | they'd maybe have better tolerance data than you might find in a published academic paper | 17:51 |
| kanzure | does any manufacturer actually do this though? | 17:52 |
| kanzure | from what i can tell most microfluidics stuff is really lame | 17:53 |
| nsh | hmm, could be so | 17:53 |
| kanzure | ParahSailin_: would your guy be the right person to ask? | 17:53 |
| kanzure | bruce? | 17:53 |
| nsh | maybe throw them a specification and see how confident they are | 17:54 |
| kanzure | fenn: can you look into this | 17:54 |
| fenn | what is "droplet load" exactly> | 17:55 |
| * fenn watching http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7rqq4DHckM | 17:55 | |
| kanzure | i mean how many droplets you can pump in a channel without breaking them, for how far/long/pressure | 17:56 |
| fenn | how long is a string? | 17:56 |
| fenn | why would the droplets break in the first place? both the droplet and the fluid around it are incompressible | 17:57 |
| nmz787 | framerate of that video sucks | 17:59 |
| azonenberg | kanzure: syn+ack | 17:59 |
| nmz787 | well they just said it was 2k fps | 18:00 |
| nmz787 | so i guess they were going fast | 18:00 |
| kanzure | azonenberg: someone was wondering about your project status or something | 18:00 |
| kanzure | poptire: ping | 18:00 |
| kanzure | azonenberg: i think poptire was also wondering about what university you go to | 18:00 |
| azonenberg | kanzure: you wont get anywhere with my v6 address lol | 18:00 |
| kanzure | aw :( | 18:01 |
| azonenberg | its a hurricane electric 6to4 into my apartment | 18:01 |
| azonenberg | :p | 18:01 |
| azonenberg | but i'm at RPI | 18:01 |
| kanzure | fenn: ah? incompressible? well then.. | 18:01 |
| poptire | ah. cool | 18:01 |
| kanzure | 2-D transient incompressible flow in a rectangular duct using OpenFOAM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jx3DQn33MHE | 18:01 |
| kanzure | hmm that looks like a vortex to me | 18:02 |
| kanzure | can't be laminar? | 18:02 |
| kanzure | ok that's meters/second haha | 18:02 |
| poptire | azonenberg: i'm a sophomore EE and your project sounds quite interesting | 18:02 |
| azonenberg | nice | 18:02 |
| azonenberg | so i just mentioned some stuff in the homecmos channel but i'll repeat a bit more here | 18:02 |
| azonenberg | i'm a phd student in CS at RPI | 18:02 |
| azonenberg | this is a side project of mine | 18:03 |
| azonenberg | things are going slowly because i'm busy working on other stuff too but there are definite plans | 18:03 |
| poptire | gotcha | 18:03 |
| azonenberg | working on a nice spin coater now | 18:03 |
| azonenberg | the one i have is too big to fit in my fume hood | 18:03 |
| kanzure | nice.. i will probably need a spin coater in a few months | 18:03 |
| azonenberg | i mean it fits, but there's no airflow around it | 18:03 |
| azonenberg | i'll be publishing cad designs for mine | 18:03 |
| azonenberg | and a full BOM | 18:03 |
| poptire | cool | 18:03 |
| kanzure | great! please attach an open source license to whatever too | 18:03 |
| azonenberg | kanzure: anything i publish will be BSD licensed | 18:04 |
| kanzure | you've made me the happiest girl | 18:05 |
| bkero | kanzure is the happiest girl | 18:06 |
| poptire | azonenberg: if you have some time, could you go into detail about how you made the nyan cat? i think i read somewhere that you used photolitho but i can't seem to find anything beyond that | 18:06 |
| azonenberg | poptire: basic process is easy | 18:06 |
| azonenberg | blank piece of silicon, crystal structure unimportant | 18:06 |
| azonenberg | evaporate Cr adhesion layer + Cu metalization over it | 18:06 |
| azonenberg | i did this in the materials lab on campus, i have a vacuum chabmer at home but havent finished building a deposition rig yet | 18:07 |
| azonenberg | then spin-coat photoresist | 18:07 |
| azonenberg | Print out my mask at 600DPI on transparency film | 18:07 |
| azonenberg | Reduce 10:1 optically through a microscope objective onto the die | 18:07 |
| azonenberg | that gives me 6,000 DPI | 18:07 |
| azonenberg | which allowing for a ~5 pixel design rule gives roughly 20 micron feature sizes | 18:08 |
| poptire | wow | 18:08 |
| azonenberg | then develop and etch in HCl:H2O2 | 18:08 |
| azonenberg | http://homecmos.googlecode.com/svn/wiki/images/die_i4_002_fullres.jpg is a SEM shot of parallel lines | 18:08 |
| poptire | do you have any papers/links for more info on the Cr deposition process? | 18:08 |
| azonenberg | standard thermal evaporation from a tungsten basket | 18:09 |
| azonenberg | i used a tool on campus for that | 18:09 |
| azonenberg | pump down to the 1E-6 torr range | 18:09 |
| azonenberg | heat filament until metal charge melts | 18:09 |
| azonenberg | keep heating, vapor pressure increases | 18:09 |
| azonenberg | and metal starts depositing on whatever is nearby | 18:09 |
| poptire | ah. | 18:10 |
| poptire | is that sorta like sputtering? | 18:10 |
| azonenberg | very different | 18:10 |
| azonenberg | both are forms of physical vapor deposition | 18:10 |
| azonenberg | Sputtering involves forming a plasma discharge in argon (usually) at around 1E-2 torr | 18:10 |
| azonenberg | the argon atoms impact your target (the material being deposited) and mechanically dislodge atoms | 18:10 |
| azonenberg | which then deposit on your sample | 18:11 |
| azonenberg | The mean free path at that pressure is much smaller than the distance from the target to the sample | 18:11 |
| azonenberg | which means metal atoms will bounce off other metal atoms or argon atoms on the way to your sample | 18:11 |
| azonenberg | and hit the sample from all directions | 18:11 |
| azonenberg | That results in pretty uniform coverage from all directions | 18:11 |
| azonenberg | Evporation, on the other hand, just involves heating the metal | 18:11 |
| azonenberg | and it evaporates | 18:11 |
| azonenberg | the pressure is much lower which means the atoms move in a straight line from it to the sample | 18:12 |
| azonenberg | this means vertical walls will not be covered much, if at all | 18:12 |
| azonenberg | and if the surface of the sample isn't flat you can get "shadows" | 18:12 |
| azonenberg | in which there is no deposition | 18:12 |
| azonenberg | Some processes actually take advantage of this while for others it can be a problem | 18:12 |
| poptire | word. | 18:13 |
| azonenberg | My current vacuum apparatus gets deep enough for sputtering (or will once i fix a leak or two) but i need to figure out how to purge the chamber with argon | 18:13 |
| azonenberg | since right now it just has air in it | 18:13 |
| azonenberg | i also dont have a HV power source | 18:14 |
| azonenberg | so i have a ways to go still | 18:14 |
| poptire | ah. | 18:14 |
| azonenberg | for now i do metal deposition on campus and everything else in my own lab | 18:14 |
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| poptire | cool | 18:15 |
| delinquentme | usually when someone so convincingly takes over the channel its kanzure | 18:15 |
| poptire | i'd like to try my hand at this before the semester is over | 18:15 |
| delinquentme | azonenberg, has FTWed | 18:15 |
| azonenberg | Be warned this is not an easy project | 18:15 |
| azonenberg | i've been working on it for years (though slowly) | 18:15 |
| poptire | have you managed to make anything resembling a semiconductor device yet? | 18:17 |
| azonenberg | I havent attempted to | 18:18 |
| azonenberg | i've been working on lithography mostly | 18:18 |
| azonenberg | and MEMS | 18:18 |
| azonenberg | The next step is to get a furnace for growing oxide and doing diffusion | 18:18 |
| azonenberg | MTI has a nice one for $1k | 18:18 |
| azonenberg | i plan to buy one in a month or two | 18:18 |
| poptire | cool | 18:18 |
| poptire | do you have a research budget for this, or are you doing it all out of pocket? | 18:18 |
| azonenberg | This is entirely personal | 18:18 |
| azonenberg | hence the slow progress | 18:18 |
| azonenberg | no funding | 18:18 |
| kanzure | do you need funding | 18:18 |
| azonenberg | If you're willing to donate to the project i wont complain, but i'm not asking for it at this point | 18:19 |
| fenn | hmm. this is the only one i've found with >3" travel http://www.ebay.com/itm/C79802-X-Y-Yaskawa-Minertia-Motor-Motorized-Positioning-Stage-w-6-Wafer-Chuck-/390389796944?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5ae50b9050 | 18:29 |
| kanzure | would not using an xy stage be the end of the world | 18:30 |
| fenn | 172 pounds! | 18:30 |
| kanzure | wut | 18:30 |
| fenn | a bridge configuration would be fine | 18:30 |
| kanzure | woah what is this | 18:30 |
| kanzure | this is a beast | 18:30 |
| fenn | 2 of these would be fine http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brooks-Automation-anti-backlash-precision-linear-actuator-positioning-stage-THK-/120887003509?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c256d4975 | 18:31 |
| kanzure | that looks more like what i'd expect? | 18:32 |
| fenn | here we go, this is perfect, and only $7k! :P http://www.ebay.com/itm/Parker-Positioning-Systems-Daedal-Division-X-Y-motorized-stage-/320775674700?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4aafb85b4c | 18:36 |
| nmz787 | or this | 18:36 |
| nmz787 | http://www.ebay.com/itm/Industrial-motorized-XY-platform-motorized-XY-motorized-stage-for-macro-photo-/290692593881?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43aea0f8d9#ht_16644wt_1270 | 18:36 |
| nmz787 | sooo | 18:38 |
| nmz787 | 1/4 40 screws with anti-backlash nuts? | 18:39 |
| fenn | certainly needs new screws | 18:39 |
| kanzure | fenn: please use diyhpluswiki | 18:39 |
| kanzure | .. or something | 18:39 |
| nmz787 | http://www.haydonkerk.com/LinearMotionProducts/LeadScrewsAndNuts/Nuts/WDGSeriesNuts/tabid/256/Default.aspx | 18:40 |
| ParahSailin_ | we always got the masks with chrome already evaporated onto it | 18:40 |
| ParahSailin_ | kanzure, yes bruce would be the person to ask | 18:41 |
| kanzure | what am i asking him again? how many droplets i can get into a channel or something? | 18:41 |
| kanzure | fenn which email do you want me to use as your primary | 18:42 |
| ParahSailin_ | we never worked with droplets | 18:42 |
| ParahSailin_ | plug flow only | 18:42 |
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| kanzure | oh. would bruce know about drops though? | 18:42 |
| delinquentme | why arent you guys buying a makerbot | 18:42 |
| kanzure | makerbot sucks | 18:42 |
| ParahSailin_ | i dunno, try him | 18:43 |
| delinquentme | clearly | 18:43 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: why not use reprap instead | 18:43 |
| delinquentme | ok | 18:43 |
| delinquentme | do that then | 18:43 |
| fenn | at least mendel is kinematically designed (sort of) | 18:43 |
| fenn | kanzure: gmail | 18:43 |
| nmz787 | i have a makerbot | 18:44 |
| nmz787 | dont need to buy one | 18:45 |
| nmz787 | well its the house's i guess | 18:45 |
| ParahSailin_ | reprap seems i dont understand why 3d print when you could mill stuff out of blocks of plastic that you could cast in big molds | 18:46 |
| kanzure | most people don't have mills | 18:47 |
| ParahSailin_ | most people dont have 3d printers | 18:47 |
| ParahSailin_ | why choose 3d printer to develop vs mill as a cheap open source hardware | 18:47 |
| kanzure | ask fenn about the conspiracy against stewart platforms | 18:48 |
| fenn | mills are more complicated than 3d printers; gotta think about work holding, cam algorithms, vibration damping (mass), rigidity | 18:49 |
| ParahSailin_ | surely with development, an open source mill design could be of comparable price to a reprap | 18:49 |
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| fenn | i doubt it | 18:50 |
| ParahSailin_ | ah | 18:50 |
| n_bentha | herro | 18:50 |
| kanzure | mass is the largest issue iirc | 18:50 |
| fenn | mass is one way of damping vibrations (but not the only way) | 18:50 |
| kanzure | yes but because they are so massive all the time, it's harder to keep mills | 18:50 |
| fenn | also, mass is easy to come by | 18:50 |
| fenn | it's when you start building it into your machine components that it becomes annoying | 18:51 |
| fenn | <- not a fan of the egyptian roller method | 18:51 |
| ParahSailin_ | how cheap could i build a mill suitable for plastic | 18:51 |
| fenn | get a drill press and a $100 xy table from harbor freight | 18:51 |
| nmz787 | kanzure fenn: do you think CDROMs have fine enough pitch screws? | 18:51 |
| nmz787 | just use two CDROMs like hackteria, but with non-shitty controller? | 18:52 |
| fenn | maybe, it would be about 1 micron per microstep with 16 microsteps | 18:52 |
| nmz787 | high microstepping, etc | 18:52 |
| delinquentme | fenn, why dont people just use water for mass | 18:52 |
| fenn | i don't trust microstepping | 18:53 |
| delinquentme | or concrete blocks | 18:53 |
| fenn | delinquentme: water isnt very dense | 18:53 |
| nmz787 | fenn: why? the rest of the industry does | 18:53 |
| kanzure | explain why you use mass | 18:53 |
| kanzure | it's because you are cutting steel or w/e | 18:53 |
| fenn | because the fundamental frequency is inversely proportional to mass | 18:54 |
| fenn | um | 18:54 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: yes? | 18:55 |
| fenn | also, for a given energy of resonance, the displacement is lower with more mass (because the momentum is higher) | 18:56 |
| fenn | i'm doing a crap job explaining this | 18:56 |
| delinquentme | ? | 18:56 |
| delinquentme | idk whats going on kanzure | 18:56 |
| kanzure | we're explaining why mills tend to be massive to you | 18:56 |
| nmz787 | fenn: are you talking about microstepping or mills and mass? | 18:57 |
| fenn | i think it's past my bedtime | 18:57 |
| nmz787 | (i think mills) | 18:57 |
| kanzure | mills/mass | 18:57 |
| nmz787 | don't you have a rotating schedule? | 18:57 |
| fenn | yep | 18:57 |
| kanzure | fenn: and why don't you trust microstepping? | 18:59 |
| nmz787 | kanzure fenn: only problem i could see with using CDROMs is that they probably couldn't hold the optics, but if we're only cutting a piece of silicon/teflon/acrylic coated in PDMS... it should be able to move that no prob, so the optics can be stationary | 18:59 |
| nmz787 | which actually makes it easier I think, if we had to use CO2 rather than solid state | 18:59 |
| fenn | kanzure: the amount of force between one microstep and the next is very small. if there's friction in the system (such as from an anti backlash nut) the leadscrew just won't turn until many microsteps ahve gone by | 19:00 |
| nmz787 | i'm so sad that the glowing yogurt thread hasn't had much response since I posted the protocol of how to transform lactobacillus with linear DNA for chromosomal integration | 19:01 |
| nmz787 | fenn: thats what an encoder is for, no? | 19:01 |
| fenn | yeah but you don't want to mix steppers and encoders | 19:01 |
| fenn | please don't make me explain | 19:01 |
| fenn | it's a control system mess | 19:01 |
| audy | omg glowing yogurt | 19:02 |
| nmz787 | i've seen it | 19:02 |
| audy | kids would go nuts over that.. glowing tube yogurt | 19:02 |
| audy | Glogurt | 19:02 |
| nmz787 | in fact the last pump i used had it | 19:02 |
| delinquentme | ^ | 19:02 |
| kanzure | glogurt is already a mass marketed product -_- | 19:02 |
| nmz787 | it was built into the controller to work that way= | 19:02 |
| kanzure | oh that's gogurt | 19:03 |
| kanzure | nevermind | 19:03 |
| nmz787 | http://www.allmotion.com/EZHR17Description.htm | 19:03 |
| nmz787 | 256 microstepping | 19:03 |
| nmz787 | on the pump we had, we were able to calculate nanoliter change in a hanging droplet with a wvga camera | 19:04 |
| nmz787 | though that prob had less mass | 19:04 |
| nmz787 | actually | 19:04 |
| -!- n_bentha [~lolicon@75.111.160.104] has left ##hplusroadmap [] | 19:04 | |
| nmz787 | and backlash had to be compensated for, but that wasn't too hard because it was just a pump | 19:05 |
| fenn | i dont see anything about encoders | 19:06 |
| kanzure | On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 9:03 PM, Bruce Flachsbart <bruce-f@comcast.net> wrote: | 19:06 |
| kanzure | > I don't think the oil in water system is very stable, so I doubt trying to | 19:06 |
| kanzure | > store them would work that well. If you could charge the droplets, then | 19:06 |
| kanzure | > that would help keep them from recombining. | 19:06 |
| kanzure | > There is a limit to the droplet size. As the input channel gets smaller, | 19:06 |
| kanzure | > the droplet get smaller, but the flow velocity gets smaller closer to the | 19:06 |
| kanzure | > side wall, so this combines to sort of limit the lower end of droplet size. | 19:06 |
| kanzure | > | 19:06 |
| kanzure | > Sounds like an interesting problem - good luck! | 19:06 |
| audy | kanzure I recon it'd take a while to get GFP yogurt approved by the FDA | 19:06 |
| fenn | "optical switch" is for homing (setting origin accurately) | 19:07 |
| nmz787 | nah the pump themselves had encoder options | 19:08 |
| nmz787 | i guess we werent using that in retrospect | 19:09 |
| fenn | this looks interesting http://www.ebay.com/itm/Precision-XY-Slide-15-x-10-75-THK-Linear-Rail-w-RSR20VW-Bearing-Block-/251033050885?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a72bc5f05 | 19:22 |
| fenn | hm. "There are 2 THK bearing blocks on the unit, but one is missing all its bearings" | 19:22 |
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| fenn | i can't push to diyhpluswiki so i pushed to github instead https://github.com/fenn/diyhpluswiki | 19:33 |
| kanzure | try pushing to diyhplus wiki now | 19:34 |
| kanzure | diyhpluswiki | 19:34 |
| fenn | fatal: remote error: access denied or repository not exported: /diyhpluswiki.git | 19:34 |
| kanzure | are you pushing from gnusha | 19:34 |
| fenn | no, why would that matter? | 19:35 |
| kanzure | if you were logged in on gnusha you would have to re-login because of how group permissions work on linux | 19:35 |
| kanzure | git push fenn@diyhpl.us:/srv/git/diyhpluswiki.git master | 19:36 |
| fenn | ok that worked | 19:36 |
| kanzure | lame | 19:36 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: LAME | 19:36 |
| fenn | in .git/config origin url = git://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki.git | 19:36 |
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| * fenn wanders off | 19:38 | |
| kanzure | nmz787: this is what he committed http://diyhpl.us/wiki/projects/laser_etcher | 19:43 |
| Vicarious | hi | 19:51 |
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| nmz787 | cool | 20:01 |
| nmz787 | not much of a wiki to have that URL | 20:01 |
| kanzure | huh? | 20:04 |
| nmz787 | well its just text, but the URL says wiki | 20:04 |
| kanzure | yeah, it's a wiki.. one sec | 20:04 |
| kanzure | https://secure.diyhpl.us/write/diyhpluswiki/ikiwiki.cgi?page=projects/laser_etcher&do=edit | 20:04 |
| kanzure | "Error: projects/laser_etcher is not an editable page" | 20:05 |
| kanzure | wtf is this | 20:05 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: whaaattt | 20:05 |
| nmz787 | chrome wont let me access it | 20:06 |
| nmz787 | "proceed anyway" does nothing | 20:06 |
| nmz787 | that might be my issue tho | 20:07 |
| kanzure | yeah i think we disabled anonymous editing | 20:07 |
| kanzure | i don't remember why | 20:07 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: why | 20:07 |
| nmz787 | btw i got these, i can email or whatever | 20:07 |
| nmz787 | http://iopscience.iop.org/0960-1317/22/4/045005 | 20:07 |
| nmz787 | http://m.iopscience.iop.org/0960-1317/22/4/045005 | 20:07 |
| kanzure | nmz787: let's set something else up.. one sec | 20:08 |
| nmz787 | they aren't storing in a row/single channel tho | 20:08 |
| kanzure | nmz787: so you can use that to upload files instead of emailing | 20:12 |
| kanzure | if you want to send files over http drop them into a folder called public_html in your home directory | 20:12 |
| kanzure | ah so 045005 is a droplet array | 20:16 |
| kanzure | "Emulsion droplets with desired volumes and compositions are produced, addressably stored, manipulated and retrieved from a 4 × 4 array, which employs just 4 (= 2 × log24) control inputs for the operation" | 20:16 |
| kanzure | er, log base 2 of 4 | 20:16 |
| kanzure | anyway.. yes that paper looks useful | 20:17 |
| nmz787 | http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19107293 | 20:31 |
| ParahSailin_ | looks like bruce had a helpful answer | 20:32 |
| nmz787 | nice pics in this one | 20:32 |
| nmz787 | http://131.174.221.43/NCMLS/docs/Microdoplets.pdf | 20:32 |
| kanzure | ParahSailin_: yes somewhat | 20:32 |
| kanzure | nmz787: that ncbi one is in the folder already, | 20:34 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/microfluidics/Simple,%20robust%20storage%20of%20drops%20and%20fluids%20in%20a%20microfluidic%20device.pdf | 20:34 |
| kanzure | i'd def. like that iop paper | 20:34 |
| nmz787 | ok okokok | 20:35 |
| kanzure | heh | 20:35 |
| delinquentme | the plans to prototype the chip in what software? | 20:45 |
| kanzure | python CAD library i've been writing | 20:45 |
| kanzure | dump to svg and gcode and other stuff | 20:45 |
| delinquentme | fineline likes STLs | 20:47 |
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| nmz787 | isnt STL a pretty bad format? | 20:47 |
| kanzure | yes STL is pretty bad | 20:47 |
| kanzure | finelines would be in svg | 20:48 |
| delinquentme | Actually STL file format is what we preferred because we quote and build from that. We can accept igs, step, prt files as well as long as they are not assembly files. | 20:48 |
| delinquentme | ^ quote | 20:48 |
| delinquentme | also you do realize that fluidigm is a company that just went IPO | 20:49 |
| delinquentme | with the technology you're looking to build in 6 months | 20:49 |
| gene_hacker | IT'S AWFUL | 20:49 |
| gene_hacker | no really it is | 20:49 |
| delinquentme | what is | 20:49 |
| gene_hacker | STL | 20:49 |
| delinquentme | how / why | 20:50 |
| ParahSailin_ | fluidigm looks neat | 20:50 |
| delinquentme | its like a jpeg | 20:50 |
| delinquentme | yes you're not developing with it | 20:50 |
| delinquentme | but you're exporting it for use | 20:50 |
| delinquentme | PSD >>> jpeg | 20:50 |
| gene_hacker | some problems with 3d printing resolution, were solved by going directly from CAD file to slice | 20:50 |
| nmz787 | i dont see much similarity to us and fludigm | 20:50 |
| delinquentme | im saying their technology | 20:50 |
| delinquentme | is microfluidic prototyping | 20:51 |
| gene_hacker | and by resolution improvement, I mean by a factor of a lot | 20:51 |
| delinquentme | they've got machines which integrate them but their big statement is how they did micro fab differently | 20:51 |
| delinquentme | but! | 20:52 |
| delinquentme | if you want to build lasers | 20:52 |
| delinquentme | build lasers / hardware | 20:52 |
| gene_hacker | fluidigm's the microfluidic building blocks company right? | 20:52 |
| gene_hacker | I'd assumed they'd make a whole bunch of the same blocks via photolithography | 20:53 |
| ParahSailin_ | fluidigm has some pretty good patents to rip off | 20:53 |
| delinquentme | they do | 20:53 |
| kanzure | there is no way they use stl for microfluidics | 20:53 |
| gene_hacker | what do you want to do with said patents? | 20:53 |
| kanzure | well i guess people sometimes use dxf. anyway.. i don't recommend stl. | 20:54 |
| gene_hacker | why would you use STL for microfluidics? | 20:54 |
| kanzure | hahah i have no clue | 20:54 |
| gene_hacker | do you have complex 3d features? | 20:54 |
| kanzure | nope. don't mind it | 20:54 |
| gene_hacker | are you considering using microstereolithography to make them? | 20:54 |
| ParahSailin_ | http://www.google.com/patents/US6408878 | 20:56 |
| delinquentme | .... | 20:57 |
| kanzure | gene_hacker: nope.. using a laser cutter | 20:57 |
| delinquentme | like what am i supposed to say here? | 20:57 |
| delinquentme | you're not developing with STLS | 20:57 |
| delinquentme | you EXPORT to stl | 20:57 |
| delinquentme | explain how thats horrible | 20:57 |
| kanzure | nonono don't export stl | 20:57 |
| delinquentme | ....... | 20:58 |
| delinquentme | talk | 20:58 |
| delinquentme | im about to put a gun to my head | 20:58 |
| delinquentme | not really but | 20:58 |
| kanzure | i'm actually on a phone call | 20:58 |
| kanzure | so you are getting about 20% of my brain | 20:58 |
| delinquentme | yeh do what u need to do there | 20:59 |
| delinquentme | gene_hacker, you need to explain | 20:59 |
| delinquentme | bc you're tainting his mind | 20:59 |
| delinquentme | and theres no real substance there | 20:59 |
| delinquentme | other than you both think the web should be displayed via PSD files | 20:59 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: dont they say you only use 10% anyway | 20:59 |
| delinquentme | this is kanzure you're talking about | 21:00 |
| nmz787 | who uses photoshop here? | 21:00 |
| nmz787 | PSD is so closed | 21:00 |
| nmz787 | XCF in the hizouse | 21:00 |
| delinquentme | lol | 21:00 |
| delinquentme | like | 21:00 |
| kanzure | i have photoshop if you need something done.. | 21:00 |
| delinquentme | yes i support open soure | 21:00 |
| delinquentme | source | 21:00 |
| delinquentme | but like | 21:00 |
| delinquentme | where is the line drawn | 21:00 |
| kanzure | wait wait | 21:00 |
| kanzure | stl thing first | 21:00 |
| nmz787 | i used to use photoshop a lot more, but lately im totally satisfied with gimp | 21:00 |
| kanzure | the reason stl is not a good plan is because you need vectors to do curves with a laser cutter | 21:01 |
| nmz787 | especially after i learned of the seam carving plugin last night | 21:01 |
| kanzure | instead of tesselations you want the actual hardware to determine the max resolution | 21:01 |
| kanzure | (or the document will say what it's meant for) | 21:01 |
| gene_hacker | STL is triangulated | 21:01 |
| gene_hacker | when you make your part, you also make the triangles, | 21:01 |
| gene_hacker | in a sense you lose resolution with STL | 21:02 |
| delinquentme | hm | 21:02 |
| gene_hacker | in addition, STL isn't the final machine code | 21:02 |
| delinquentme | ok aside from the fact that a company is using stls | 21:02 |
| delinquentme | what im after is | 21:03 |
| delinquentme | you're building a cad software to model the parts | 21:03 |
| delinquentme | and you're building a laser to print those parts | 21:03 |
| delinquentme | so while its awesome that youve found kindred spirits | 21:03 |
| gene_hacker | you convert STL to slices, it's best to convert directly to slices | 21:03 |
| delinquentme | is that truly the most efficient way to do this | 21:03 |
| kanzure | cad is not hard for this | 21:03 |
| kanzure | and a laser cutter is just a chip plus a gantry.. big deal | 21:03 |
| kanzure | oh and the laser. | 21:04 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, you're also saying that the laser for this is simple | 21:04 |
| kanzure | it is! | 21:04 |
| delinquentme | listen man | 21:04 |
| delinquentme | you know i want to believe you | 21:04 |
| delinquentme | you fucking know that | 21:04 |
| kanzure | anyway, we can use proprietary cad if necessary, but it doesn't matter | 21:04 |
| gene_hacker | anyway, so why are you laser cutting microfluidic circuits? | 21:04 |
| delinquentme | but like there is shit | 21:04 |
| delinquentme | and there is fan | 21:04 |
| kanzure | gene_hacker: because i don't want to wait for lithography | 21:04 |
| delinquentme | how does we minimize distance traveled | 21:04 |
| gene_hacker | isn't the surface roughness of laser cut parts pretty high? | 21:04 |
| kanzure | ok sorry about that.. off the phone now | 21:05 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: ok. so you're saying it's too much work? | 21:05 |
| delinquentme | you dont think it is? | 21:05 |
| kanzure | gene_hacker: that's only because most laser cutters aren't meant for micro work | 21:05 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: no i'm ust trying to understand what you're saying first before i reply | 21:05 |
| kanzure | *just | 21:05 |
| delinquentme | like the open source laser cutter in ITSELF | 21:05 |
| delinquentme | is worth a fortune | 21:05 |
| kanzure | there are many open source laser cutters out there | 21:05 |
| delinquentme | microfluidics laser cutter | 21:06 |
| kanzure | when you work on a cool project you usually have to make cool tools heh' | 21:06 |
| kanzure | like for instance.. facebook | 21:06 |
| kanzure | "oh shit we have 800 million photos per second. nothing exists to do this yet. well. let's write some code." | 21:06 |
| nmz787 | fb wrote a php compiler basically, right? | 21:07 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, | 21:07 |
| kanzure | nmz787: yeah | 21:07 |
| kanzure | (eventually) | 21:07 |
| nmz787 | bc all their code was, php | 21:07 |
| nmz787 | slooowwwww | 21:07 |
| nmz787 | making your own tools is pretty common IMO | 21:07 |
| kanzure | it was pretty fast. they did amazing things with php. but.. bleh | 21:07 |
| gene_hacker | ok, so can laser cutters cut with the required surface roughness for microfluidic circuits? | 21:07 |
| delinquentme | what if! | 21:08 |
| delinquentme | we just applied to y comb | 21:08 |
| delinquentme | and then moved to sf | 21:08 |
| gene_hacker | also have you looked into building a maskless microstereolithography machine? | 21:08 |
| delinquentme | and you could get turn around on real chips | 21:08 |
| delinquentme | in a day | 21:08 |
| delinquentme | and could probably work out something for lowered prices | 21:08 |
| nmz787 | gene_hacker yes common laser cutters produce rought walls.... part of this is intrinsic to the lasers action, part is due to the large step size that they move with between spots | 21:08 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: i think submitting a yc application is ok. but it's not open season at the moment? | 21:08 |
| nmz787 | y comb is more techy too | 21:08 |
| gene_hacker | or DLP projector hooked up to a microscope, pointing at a vat of photopolymer | 21:09 |
| delinquentme | money | 21:09 |
| delinquentme | its the universal language | 21:09 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: don't worry about money | 21:09 |
| delinquentme | thats what you say | 21:09 |
| delinquentme | what did you say about halcyon playing with electron microscopes? | 21:09 |
| kanzure | nothing? i just thought their longevity plan wasn't well thought-out | 21:10 |
| delinquentme | listen i want to believe right | 21:10 |
| kanzure | believe what :) | 21:10 |
| delinquentme | and id love just as much to put my foot in my mouth on this | 21:10 |
| delinquentme | but like | 21:10 |
| delinquentme | go refine the plastic | 21:10 |
| delinquentme | diy is fun | 21:10 |
| delinquentme | its cool | 21:10 |
| kanzure | ok wait | 21:12 |
| kanzure | apply to yc -> move to sf [if they accept us] | 21:12 |
| nmz787 | i also have constraints | 21:13 |
| nmz787 | i can't just pick up and leave just like that | 21:13 |
| kanzure | yc doesn't require everyone to be there | 21:13 |
| nmz787 | i mean, if it was planned | 21:13 |
| nmz787 | and the opportunity was good enough | 21:13 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: so.. you want me to just order chips from a foundry | 21:13 |
| nmz787 | but i think we can do this on our own | 21:13 |
| nmz787 | even if it takes 2 years to get to a good prototype | 21:13 |
| nmz787 | by then we have a laser for microfluidic rapid prototyping | 21:14 |
| nmz787 | and a dna synthesizer, and the know how to make modular microfluidics with out custom software that is designed for microfluidics | 21:14 |
| nmz787 | and in that case we own all the equity | 21:14 |
| -!- gnusha [~gnusha@131.252.130.248] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 21:28 | |
| -!- Topic for ##hplusroadmap: biohacking, nootropics, transhumanism, open hardware http://gnusha.org/logs/ http://bit.ly/diybionews2 http://gadaprize.org/ http://groups.google.com/group/diybio | 21:28 | |
| -!- Topic set by kanzure [~kanzure@131.252.130.248] [Mon Feb 13 12:33:20 2012] | 21:28 | |
| [Users ##hplusroadmap] | 21:28 | |
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| -!- Irssi: ##hplusroadmap: Total of 61 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 61 normal] | 21:28 | |
| -!- Channel ##hplusroadmap created Thu Feb 25 23:40:30 2010 | 21:28 | |
| -!- Irssi: Join to ##hplusroadmap was synced in 4 secs | 21:28 | |
| kanzure | gnusha: welcome back. | 21:28 |
| kanzure | can someone please contribute the missing logs | 21:28 |
| kanzure | here's what it has: http://gnusha.org/logs/2012-04-04.log | 21:29 |
| delinquentme | it looks like its covered kanz | 21:37 |
| katsmeow-afk | can someone please describe a laser that will melt the ends of the copper wire as shown in http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/hsc/hsc/real_motors/large_images/DSC00079.jpg | 21:42 |
| kanzure | not ignoring you, i just don't have anything to contribute | 21:43 |
| * katsmeow-afk nods | 21:44 | |
| kanzure | gene_hacker: maybe you'd know? | 21:44 |
| katsmeow-afk | i have several motors with welded leads | 21:44 |
| katsmeow-afk | with severe vibration, otehr mechanical forces, extreme temp cycling, solder won't work and bolts work loose | 21:45 |
| katsmeow-afk | bolts may be too big or too heavy to | 21:45 |
| katsmeow-afk | o | 21:45 |
| katsmeow-afk | 4 April 2012 Last updated at 17:42 ; Print-your-own-robots developed in US ; Printed-on-demand robots might be a reality before the end of the decade if a US-based project achieves its goals. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-17614392 | 21:46 |
| nmz787 | (seriously my last post of the night | 21:49 |
| nmz787 | katsmeow: google "copper laser melt nm" | 21:49 |
| nmz787 | looks like UV | 21:49 |
| nmz787 | aka excimer | 21:49 |
| nmz787 | (excimer laser) | 21:49 |
| nmz787 | ok bed 4 realz | 21:49 |
| katsmeow-afk | No results found for "copper laser melt nm". | 21:50 |
| yashgaroth | About 12,300,000 results (0.40 seconds) | 21:50 |
| katsmeow-afk | i shall goto bed, it's been day | 21:51 |
| nmz787 | not in quotes | 21:52 |
| kanzure | doesn't count as bed if you take your phone/laptop with you | 21:53 |
| gene_hacker | perhaps it's not a laser | 21:53 |
| gene_hacker | that's a PCB motor right? | 21:54 |
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| charlieschwabach | I think copper is pretty difficult to laser cut bcs it reflects ir and conducts heat really well | 22:18 |
| charlieschwabach | i was trying to find something that could cut foil to make pcbs | 22:19 |
| charlieschwabach | or just cbs i guess if they are laser cut instead of printed.. | 22:19 |
| charlieschwabach | http://www.cnczone.com/forums/general_metal_working_machines/77285-copper_laser_cutting_machine.html | 22:19 |
| ParahSailin_ | http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3778958 | 22:24 |
| charlieschwabach | have you tried learning to read that? | 22:29 |
| charlieschwabach | i would be interested to see if that alphabet actually makes you read faster | 22:31 |
| ParahSailin_ | nope looks pretty useless | 22:31 |
| charlieschwabach | yeah the story is cool, but not sure if it would work | 22:32 |
| charlieschwabach | i memorized all the letters last night, but still have to figure out words | 22:32 |
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| charlieschwabach | supposedly you learn the shapes of words, but it definitely doesn't work right away | 22:32 |
| charlieschwabach | btw i don't mean to crash you guys room.. i am a coworker of kanzure and he turned me on to your project | 22:34 |
| charlieschwabach | very cool | 22:34 |
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| delinquentme | charlieschwabach, i was gonna say i thought a banker joined up earlier | 22:35 |
| delinquentme | but iw as kinda in the middle of some hot hot heat | 22:35 |
| charlieschwabach | haha yeah no relation | 22:36 |
| kanzure | charlieschwabach: could you show off your webgl stuff? | 22:46 |
| charlieschwabach | none of the cad stuff is usable at all yet | 22:47 |
| charlieschwabach | this is kind of cool though | 22:47 |
| charlieschwabach | https://github.com/charlieschwabacher/Walking | 22:47 |
| charlieschwabach | it uses the THREE.js library which is really great.. easy to get 3d stuff working the browser w/o much work | 22:48 |
| kanzure | charlieschwabach: i was trying to get glge.js to load up this model.. http://www.blendernation.com/2008/12/17/hatsune-miku-rigged-blender-character-available/ | 22:48 |
| kanzure | surprised nobody has done it yet (the character was/is all over youtube for some reason) | 22:49 |
| charlieschwabach | i haven't looked at glge before.. looks cool though | 22:50 |
| charlieschwabach | if you can get the model into .obj, you should be able to get it into THREE | 22:50 |
| kanzure | oh three does .obj? | 22:51 |
| charlieschwabach | https://github.com/mrdoob/three.js/blob/master/utils/exporters/obj/convert_obj_three.py | 22:51 |
| charlieschwabach | the cad i am working on just imports / exports STL and does csg operations | 22:52 |
| charlieschwabach | i know you guys were knocking STL, but it is a txt format and works well for reprap | 22:52 |
| kanzure | what are the framesteps in .obj? i forget if this format supports animations | 22:52 |
| charlieschwabach | I think it does | 22:53 |
| charlieschwabach | not sure if the converter will support it though | 22:53 |
| kanzure | neato. | 22:53 |
| charlieschwabach | what is the cad you are working on? | 22:54 |
| charlieschwabach | can you get away w/ 2d for microfluidics? | 22:54 |
| kanzure | it's all over the place.. http://diyhpl.us/cgit/lolcad has some notes/samples/stuff | 22:54 |
| kanzure | for microfluidics i am trying out f-rep.. basically using piecewise inequalities and then oct-trees to resolve a picture for rendering | 22:55 |
| kanzure | lolcad is my nurbs-related cad work | 22:55 |
| kanzure | none of it is very mature | 22:55 |
| charlieschwabach | ahh cool | 22:56 |
| kanzure | f-rep overview http://cba.mit.edu/events/07.08.fab/McCarthy.odp | 22:58 |
| charlieschwabach | what reads odp on a mac? | 22:59 |
| kanzure | openoffice.. or google docs | 22:59 |
| charlieschwabach | awesome :) | 22:59 |
| charlieschwabach | so google is failing me.. f-rep seems straightforward though | 23:02 |
| charlieschwabach | just functions for the lines | 23:02 |
| charlieschwabach | ? | 23:02 |
| kanzure | functions that define the surfaces | 23:03 |
| kanzure | circle is (X+x)**2 + (Y+y)**2 <= r**2 | 23:03 |
| kanzure | stuff like that | 23:03 |
| charlieschwabach | is there z? | 23:03 |
| kanzure | optional. but yes. | 23:03 |
| charlieschwabach | cool, yeah that makes a lot of sense | 23:04 |
| charlieschwabach | and has infinite resolution | 23:04 |
| kanzure | nurbs sorta has this resolution too but .. then i need to write all that nurbs math for lolcad | 23:04 |
| kanzure | and apparently people get PhDs for that? | 23:04 |
| charlieschwabach | haha | 23:05 |
| charlieschwabach | yeah eyes on the prize | 23:05 |
| kanzure | if you're into haskell.. this is sorta similar https://github.com/colah/ImplicitCAD | 23:05 |
| kanzure | and http://shapesmith.net/ is worth knowing about | 23:06 |
| kanzure | (he just communicates with opencascade on his servers and sends everything via json to render with webgl) | 23:06 |
| charlieschwabach | ahh, cool | 23:07 |
| charlieschwabach | shape smith looks awesome | 23:08 |
| charlieschwabach | this is what i am basing my csg from: | 23:08 |
| charlieschwabach | http://evanw.github.com/csg.js/ | 23:08 |
| charlieschwabach | just writing it from scratch to work w/ three instead of lightgl | 23:09 |
| kanzure | iirc openjscad was some extra stuff on top of csg.js | 23:10 |
| kanzure | http://joostn.github.com/OpenJsCad/ | 23:10 |
| kanzure | oh neat.. never saw that 'servo motor demo' before | 23:11 |
| kanzure | http://joostn.github.com/OpenJsCad/servodemo.html | 23:11 |
| kanzure | or http://joostn.github.com/OpenJsCad/gearsdemo.html | 23:11 |
| charlieschwabach | oh awesome! | 23:12 |
| charlieschwabach | maybe i don't even need to write mine | 23:12 |
| charlieschwabach | although it is ~75% for fun so probably still will | 23:12 |
| kanzure | i think openjscad still uses lightgl anyway | 23:12 |
| charlieschwabach | i want to build these tables, which are a cloud of points joined to each other by various algorithms and then supporting a tabletop | 23:14 |
| charlieschwabach | and 3d print the joins and use aluminum tubing | 23:14 |
| charlieschwabach | so i want it to programatically generate the stl files to print | 23:14 |
| charlieschwabach | and then do assembly instructions w/ webgl | 23:15 |
| kanzure | ironically i was working in a lab where someone was working on (dis)assembly instructions | 23:16 |
| kanzure | wrong way.. | 23:16 |
| charlieschwabach | haha | 23:16 |
| delinquentme | i like the walking robot | 23:16 |
| charlieschwabach | thanks, yeah i wanted to build one and thought would be cool to make a simulator first | 23:17 |
| delinquentme | you could sell processing power on someones computer while they browse something like NYT | 23:17 |
| charlieschwabach | a little like building a laser cutter to synthesize dna ;) | 23:17 |
| delinquentme | monetize news papers and other sit and browse type website | 23:17 |
| charlieschwabach | i think there is a bit coin mining thing in js | 23:18 |
| kanzure | charlieschwabach: also.. i host some fringe cad. | 23:18 |
| kanzure | http://nanoengineer-1.com/content/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=40&Itemid=50 | 23:18 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/cgit/nanoengineer | 23:18 |
| charlieschwabach | very cool! | 23:22 |
| charlieschwabach | imagine if we could actually build that planetary gear :) | 23:22 |
| charlieschwabach | alright, i am out for the night | 23:22 |
| kanzure | seeya. | 23:22 |
| charlieschwabach | see you | 23:22 |
| Stee| | hmm, may start becoming a reviewer at TechCast | 23:28 |
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| --- Log closed Thu Apr 05 00:00:22 2012 | ||
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