| --- Log opened Fri Apr 25 00:00:06 2014 | ||
| --- Day changed Fri Apr 25 2014 | ||
| entelechios | paperbot has been bust for a while now | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| fenn | it's just science magazine | 00:00 |
| fenn | which is stupid because i get like 3 copies of it | 00:00 |
| entelechios | sec | 00:02 |
| fenn | so anyway CD47 kills cancer and promotes angiogenesis | 00:02 |
| entelechios | trying alternative methods | 00:02 |
| entelechios | http://ezproxy.morningside.edu:2535/content/1/3/3ra7.full.pdf?sid=f006aa6d-dc9c-42c1-ba01-08cc2df5fd43 | 00:02 |
| entelechios | nope | 00:02 |
| gradstudentbot | Heh, undergrads. | 00:02 |
| entelechios | oh wait | 00:02 |
| entelechios | this is free | 00:03 |
| jrayhawk | haha | 00:03 |
| jrayhawk | i missed gradstudentbot | 00:03 |
| gradstudentbot | I don't think my PI remembers me. | 00:03 |
| fenn | oh, " | 00:03 |
| fenn | As a service to the community, AAAS/ Science has made this article free with registration." | 00:03 |
| entelechios | this is what ive got for my central american good fortune | 00:04 |
| entelechios | http://jxplore.com/ | 00:04 |
| fenn | i see a login form and don't generally read the fine print | 00:04 |
| entelechios | in terms of getting things sorted for papers | 00:04 |
| ebowden_ | paperbot: http://www.karger.com/Article/FullText/82131 | 00:04 |
| entelechios | russia has some other thing i used to use which was a lot simpler but | 00:04 |
| entelechios | i see people use paperbot in here does it really still work | 00:04 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/f3e126481b8d3ade19941bd04ac72437.txt | 00:04 |
| fenn | i dunno | 00:04 |
| entelechios | i remember it did a while ago | 00:04 |
| fenn | for some reason kanzure made it link to libgen and everything broke | 00:05 |
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| jrayhawk | works for me | 00:06 |
| fenn | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1126%2Fscitranslmed.3000139 give me a 404 | 00:07 |
| entelechios | fenn pretty sure years ago i had dr isenberg mail me this stuff anyways | 00:07 |
| fenn | http://stm.sciencemag.org/content/1/3/3ra7.full wants me to register | 00:07 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1126%2Fscitranslmed.3000139 | 00:07 |
| entelechios | or at least drafts | 00:08 |
| entelechios | this was a long long time ago | 00:08 |
| entelechios | but usually just asking nicely to the researchers works great | 00:08 |
| entelechios | especially if youve got questions or ask for follow up commentary | 00:08 |
| fenn | fuck that | 00:08 |
| entelechios | which also of course provides additonal info sometimes | 00:08 |
| fenn | if it's publically funded research it should be online and easy to download | 00:08 |
| entelechios | no doubt | 00:09 |
| entelechios | anyways actually engaging with the researchers in question is rewarding | 00:09 |
| fenn | i'm not an oncologist, i just don't want to read some poorly rehashed popular science article when i can read the real thing | 00:09 |
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| entelechios | i'm just some goon | 00:10 |
| entelechios | with no education and a lot of curiosity | 00:10 |
| jrayhawk | that can get you pretty far | 00:11 |
| entelechios | it has really | 00:11 |
| entelechios | no debts | 00:11 |
| fenn | wikipedia totally changes the game, we don't really need "education" anymore, just access to infrastructure | 00:11 |
| entelechios | wikipedia, i've done troll edits on it that have lasted to this day | 00:11 |
| jrayhawk | eh, i find wikipedia pretty bad for a lot of stuff | 00:11 |
| fenn | it provides a basic overview on-demand that is hard to find anywhere else | 00:12 |
| entelechios | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IKEA citation #6 SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH don't blow it it's funny as hell | 00:12 |
| entelechios | i probably just blew it | 00:12 |
| fenn | i'm calling the wiki police | 00:12 |
| entelechios | i've had that up there for at least a couple of years now | 00:12 |
| jrayhawk | yeah, there are occasionally some pretty big editors in here | 00:12 |
| entelechios | amoung others i wont even mention | 00:12 |
| entelechios | just contradicting the lies | 00:13 |
| entelechios | with citations | 00:13 |
| entelechios | i'm sure they get noticed | 00:13 |
| entelechios | but then what if someone tried to edit out that whole paragraph to say 'no they're actually known for shitting the world up' | 00:13 |
| entelechios | it'd get moderated out | 00:13 |
| fenn | something in swedish | 00:13 |
| fenn | it's not funny just because it's swedish | 00:14 |
| gradstudentbot | Hood life: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=296519020495014 | 00:15 |
| entelechios | i'd be impressed with IKEA if they had a reputation for extremely durable furniture on top of all of what they got going for themselves already | 00:15 |
| fenn | entelechios: it's made of wood, they cut down forests, it's "eco friendly" is that it? | 00:15 |
| ebowden_ | paperbot: http://www.omicsonline.org/functionalization-with-tat-peptide-enhances-blood-brain-barrier-crossing-in-vitro-of-nanoliposomes-carrying-a-curcumin-derivative-to-bind-amyloid-peptide-2157-7439.1000171.pdf&&aid=12272 | 00:15 |
| fenn | the thing is, it probably is "eco friendly" compared to the alternatives | 00:16 |
| entelechios | fenn: we don't have ikea here as far as i know, all my furniture is 2nd hand. that's your eco friendly alternative. | 00:16 |
| jrayhawk | I dunno, plastic's a lot easier to recycle. | 00:16 |
| entelechios | yeah i wouldn't mind a new desk made out of bottle caps or something | 00:16 |
| jrayhawk | obviously depending on how leachy the plastic is. | 00:16 |
| entelechios | not far from where i am this woman in el salvador has her house made of plastic bottles | 00:16 |
| entelechios | http://photoblog.nbcnews.com/_news/2011/12/30/9815906-elderly-couple-make-a-dream-home-from-plastic-bottles?lite | 00:17 |
| entelechios | its freakin cool | 00:17 |
| entelechios | and really charming | 00:17 |
| jrayhawk | entelechios: http://piny.be/jrayhawk/notes/intellectual_maladaptation/ here is a thing i wrote for myself that i think you can use | 00:17 |
| fenn | entelechios: this is pretty cool http://miniwiz.com/miniwiz/en/products/living/polli-brick watch the video for how it's made from recycled bottles | 00:18 |
| entelechios | jrayhawk: sounds like a lot of how the world goes round | 00:18 |
| jrayhawk | an elective system | 00:19 |
| entelechios | jrayhawk: try nicaraguas current situation for eg, those folks just cant calm down | 00:19 |
| paperbot | RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded in cmp (file "/usr/lib/python2.7/_weakrefset.py", line 73, in __contains__) | 00:19 |
| entelechios | they got their former sandinistas trying to encroach upon costa rican territory doing the stupidest things ever | 00:19 |
| entelechios | like trying to redivert a river | 00:19 |
| entelechios | to redraw borders | 00:19 |
| entelechios | wow fenn thats pretty awesome too | 00:20 |
| fenn | personally i think most furniture is pretty dumb. i'm a plastic bin and metro rack kind of guy, but i'd use a vertical storage carousel if i had my own place | 00:21 |
| entelechios | i live in a pretty decent cucarachahut | 00:21 |
| fenn | do you have chagas disease | 00:21 |
| entelechios | and make great money for my area | 00:21 |
| entelechios | no i don't have chagas as far as i know | 00:21 |
| entelechios | never been tested | 00:22 |
| entelechios | as far as i know it can be a pretty dormant thing | 00:22 |
| fenn | (does cucarachahut actually mean anything specific?) | 00:22 |
| entelechios | it means my place is starting to get invaded by the damn things because the green season is coming along | 00:22 |
| fenn | i like earthbag construction by Nader Khalili, especially if it's smooth and not covered in hippie art | 00:23 |
| gradstudentbot | I am completely satisfied with the size of my bench space. | 00:23 |
| fenn | gradstudentbot: fuck you too | 00:23 |
| gradstudentbot | I haven't seen my PI in like a week. | 00:23 |
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| fenn | http://calearth.org/images/building-designs/eco-dome/photos2/EcDmFinBack2.jpg | 00:24 |
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| fenn | here's one near joshua tree i stayed at http://fennetic.net/irc/IMG_8030.JPG | 00:26 |
| entelechios | what country are those in? | 00:26 |
| fenn | southern california | 00:26 |
| entelechios | cool buildings | 00:26 |
| entelechios | they look like theyre from some science fiction something or other | 00:27 |
| fenn | this was https://www.facebook.com/pages/Bonita-Domes-Project/131821026865069?_fb_noscript=1 | 00:27 |
| fenn | yes i think they used the same construction method for Star Wars Tatooine desert domes | 00:28 |
| fenn | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SW_binary_sunset.png | 00:28 |
| fenn | it's based on ancient persian mud brick vaulted "anbar" cisterns | 00:29 |
| fenn | anyway a little plastic goes a long way | 00:29 |
| fenn | the test sample they were using to do earthquake resistance testing destroyed the shaker table without even a single crack forming | 00:30 |
| fenn | like magnitude 9 earthquake | 00:30 |
| entelechios | nice | 00:31 |
| nmz787_i | Lemminkainen: http://pastebin.com/Hp28mUYM | 00:31 |
| entelechios | id really like to live in something like that | 00:31 |
| nmz787_i | Lemminkainen: FYI it was just a free registration to get that article | 00:32 |
| fenn | i hear people make "wattle and daub" (mud and stick) houses, but they can't afford concrete to finish the exterior, so assassin bugs (barbeiros) live in the sticks in the walls and it gives people chagas disease | 00:33 |
| fenn | i dont understand why they can't just put plastic on the mud to keep it from washing away? | 00:33 |
| entelechios | yeah no doubt at all | 00:33 |
| entelechios | chagas is harsh | 00:33 |
| entelechios | the treatments for it fuck your brain up sometimes | 00:33 |
| nmz787_i | Lemminkainen: just found this too http://journal.frontiersin.org/Journal/10.3389/fgene.2011.00090/full | 00:34 |
| entelechios | ive seen the bugs before | 00:34 |
| gradstudentbot | Someone's sitting at my bench space. | 00:34 |
| nmz787_i | Lemminkainen: this was the actual paper http://genome.cshlp.org/content/early/2014/04/02/gr.162131.113.abstract | 00:35 |
| fenn | also earthbag is bullet resistant | 00:35 |
| nmz787_i | .title | 00:35 |
| yoleaux | Somatic mutations found in the healthy blood compartment of a 115-yr-old woman demonstrate oligoclonal hematopoiesis | 00:35 |
| fenn | not every mutation would lead to abnormal growth, and not all abnormal growth leads to metastasis | 00:37 |
| fenn | stem cell exhaustion eh | 00:38 |
| fenn | i thought the telomere hypothesis was disproven | 00:39 |
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| fenn | jrayhawk: wrt http://piny.be/jrayhawk/notes/intellectual_maladaptation/ why is there no attempt made at modeling the values and justifications of others? | 01:02 |
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| fenn | why am i reading this | 01:02 |
| fenn | now that we have robots that can fly airplanes, we can have nuclear airplanes right? | 01:05 |
| gradstudentbot | I think our octopus might be smarter than me. | 01:06 |
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| fenn | oops i meant isotropic, not anisotropic | 01:28 |
| fenn | aw motherfucker. ikiwiki won't accept my submission because "your login session has expired" and then it deletes everything i wrote | 01:30 |
| mosasaur | Get your head out of the cloud fenn ;-) | 01:31 |
| fenn | get the clouds out of my head | 01:31 |
| fenn | i'm just garbage collecting at this point | 01:32 |
| mosasaur | btw have you taught yoleaux some new tricks already? | 01:32 |
| fenn | no, and i don't care | 01:32 |
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| gradstudentbot | My labview crashed. | 01:35 |
| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=0fb71545 fenn: radiation damage resistance. plz re-read papers and fix this summary | 01:38 |
| fenn | dear lazyweb, | 01:40 |
| fenn | where do i begin | 01:40 |
| jrayhawk | "session"? on diyhpl.us? | 01:40 |
| jrayhawk | that's a bit broken | 01:40 |
| fenn | i really don't get how ikiwiki works | 01:40 |
| jrayhawk | i should turn that into a bug report | 01:41 |
| fenn | a web browser asking for my shell credentials just seems wrong | 01:41 |
| fenn | i guess it's better than SSl | 01:42 |
| jrayhawk | I can disable password authentication at the sshd level for 'fenn' if you want. | 01:42 |
| fenn | um, but then how would i edit the page | 01:42 |
| jrayhawk | using either an ssh key or a web browser | 01:42 |
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| fenn | how do i put an ssh key into a web browser | 01:43 |
| jrayhawk | you put an ssh key into an ssh client | 01:43 |
| jrayhawk | git+ssh://diyhpl.us/srv/git/diyhpluswiki | 01:44 |
| fenn | oh, i can edit locally and push, but editing with a web browser wouldn't work if password was disabled | 01:44 |
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| jrayhawk | re: modeling values and motivations of others: if they don't have perfect values and motivations, they don't exist. if they do have perfect values and motivations, then there's no disagreement. | 01:45 |
| jrayhawk | "at the sshd level" | 01:45 |
| fenn | either way "they don't exist" | 01:45 |
| fenn | part of accepting reality is accepting the reality of the thoughts of others | 01:45 |
| jrayhawk | one would hope | 01:46 |
| fenn | that whole page is extremely aspergers | 01:46 |
| jrayhawk | uh, i think you may have your psychological pathologies quite confused | 01:46 |
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| fenn | perhaps | 01:47 |
| fenn | aspergers doesn't exist :P | 01:47 |
| jrayhawk | doesn't exist independently from autism? | 01:47 |
| fenn | i don't know man, it's just words | 01:48 |
| jrayhawk | what do words, like, really mean, man? | 01:48 |
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| fenn | i guess we could grade foods by their level of anisotropy | 01:49 |
| fenn | aspect ratio and grain size | 01:49 |
| fenn | it's logistically simpler to deal with foods with smaller grain sizes and aspect ratios | 01:50 |
| jrayhawk | oh, isotropic. yeah, pate and pemmican are probably decent options. | 01:50 |
| fenn | or really objects in general | 01:50 |
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| fenn | today passover candles were on sale so i bought 8 boxes | 01:51 |
| fenn | eventually i will melt them down and dissolve LDPE to make machinable wax for silicone rubber molds for electronics cases etc etc | 01:51 |
| fenn | but until then i have these round long things that need to be corralled in boxes or they will spill everywhere | 01:52 |
| fenn | but at least they're uniform in size. so maybe there's a parameter to reflect that too, like fractal dimension | 01:53 |
| fenn | or just standard deviation | 01:53 |
| fenn | variance | 01:53 |
| fenn | doesn't quite capture what i meant. peeps marshmallows are harder to stack than cylindrical marshmallows | 01:54 |
| fenn | i have something called "tangle factor" that isn't fully defined yet | 01:55 |
| fenn | a cord that's bundled up neatly is easier to deal with than one that's just thrown in a box with other cords | 01:56 |
| fenn | chemically, coconut oil and paraffin wax aren't that different. i'm offended by this | 01:57 |
| fenn | the fact that i can't eat paraffin wax | 01:58 |
| fenn | and derive sustenance from it | 01:58 |
| mosasaur | bee wax candles are multipurpose | 01:59 |
| fenn | what do you mean | 01:59 |
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| mosasaur | you can eat them | 02:00 |
| mosasaur | I think | 02:00 |
| mosasaur | probably put it in your ears too | 02:01 |
| fenn | great | 02:02 |
| mosasaur | Why not ask jrayhawk for an ssh shell? You could do sshfs over that or remote x or just nano in the terminal. | 02:04 |
| fenn | i am in a ssh shell right now | 02:05 |
| fenn | since it was a wiki i clicked the 'edit' button, perhaps a wrong move | 02:06 |
| mosasaur | No the error was earlier in the chain, by choosing to use a webbrowser as an interface. | 02:09 |
| fenn | sorry i am still conceptualizing my data integration entity backend | 02:11 |
| fenn | i blame julian assange for getting distracted by politics | 02:11 |
| fenn | instead of maintaining surfraw | 02:11 |
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| fenn | mosasaur: http://fennetic.net/irc/ontological_assimilator | 02:12 |
| jrayhawk | i concur, using a browser is always a wrong move | 02:14 |
| mosasaur | fenn: I saw that earlier, for now and for me, it would be sufficient if it could just extract javascript generated content. | 02:15 |
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| fenn | so, if i need shell credentials to edit a wiki page, why is there an edit button? | 02:19 |
| fenn | i still don't understand why i need to log in to edit a wiki page | 02:22 |
| fenn | i mean, the point of wikis is (theoretically) anyone can edit them | 02:23 |
| fenn | otherwise it's just a content management system | 02:23 |
| fenn | mosasaur: have you looked at phantomjs? | 02:25 |
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| mosasaur | fenn: No, but I was looking for something that would just work like wget or curl. | 02:29 |
| fenn | yes i agree, wget really needs some basic javascript support | 02:30 |
| fenn | "t's intended that whatever JavaScript functionality may be provided for Wget, will be available separately, in the form of a plugin module" | 02:33 |
| mosasaur | How about using something like youtube-dl as a starting point / inspiration? | 02:34 |
| fenn | i have no idea how that works | 02:34 |
| mosasaur | All I know is it's a python script and it works. | 02:35 |
| fenn | okay, but it's designed for a specific DOM element on a specific site, and is regularly updated to make sure it still works | 02:35 |
| mosasaur | Start with the big sites, then by and by assimilate the smaller ones. | 02:36 |
| fenn | surfraw tried that and failed | 02:36 |
| fenn | also, it's a lot of work | 02:37 |
| fenn | an infinite amount of work | 02:37 |
| fenn | probably worth reading if you really care: http://wget.addictivecode.org/FeatureSpecifications/JavaScript | 02:38 |
| mosasaur | You know a way to leverage some other work? Like taking a screenshot and then use a general character recognition engine? | 02:39 |
| fenn | er.. that's not really the problem | 02:39 |
| mosasaur | Thanks for that wget link | 02:39 |
| fenn | the problem is related to the turing machine halting problem; we can't know in advance what the javascript will do in all cases | 02:40 |
| fenn | if there's no user input, you can just run the program and give it some number of seconds to complete all the branches | 02:40 |
| fenn | but if you have to give it data, especially if that involves downloading from third party services, you have no idea whether you're stuck in an infinite loop or not | 02:41 |
| mosasaur | If you have a lot of people sending in screenshots it would be some kind of big data analysis problem, the advantage would be one would only need a single really smart data interpreter. | 02:42 |
| fenn | there's probably some "three kings of siam" classic computer science/cryptographic trust generalized version of this problem that i don't know about | 02:42 |
| fenn | mosasaur: the main use case for wget is to mirror a web site. how do you know when you're done crawling the entire site? | 02:45 |
| mosasaur | There's always things one doesn't know about, the smart thing is to try to interpret the things one does know about or that one can get their hands on. | 02:45 |
| mosasaur | You've abandoned the screenshot suggestion it seems. May I ask why? | 02:46 |
| fenn | i don't really get it | 02:46 |
| fenn | why not just take a screenshot yourself? | 02:47 |
| fenn | where does wget come into it? | 02:47 |
| mosasaur | The screenshot idea leverages the user to generate the page content. | 02:47 |
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| fenn | but the whole point of wget is that it's automatic | 02:47 |
| mosasaur | I see, you where on the wget path and I was trying to build an assimilator. | 02:48 |
| mosasaur | Indeed for a wget it seems absurd. | 02:48 |
| gradstudentbot | Yeah, it's significant. | 02:48 |
| fenn | okay, for teaching an assimilator what's what, i'd use the chrome inspector to select part of the DOM from the page you're viewing, and a plugin copies that element, its class and url and id etc, and surrounding elements, and puts it into a feature table to feed some machine learning algorithm (probably a bayesian classifier) | 02:50 |
| fenn | s/plugin/chrome extension/ | 02:51 |
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| mosasaur | OK, I was just trying to reduce the amount of work involved in anticipating each page's user interface. | 02:52 |
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| fenn | the point of the assimilator isn't necessarily to run wild on the net like a search engine spider, but rather to present the subset of data you're interested in with a uniform format | 02:52 |
| fenn | so it's a cooperative effort between man and machine | 02:53 |
| fenn | bring the "user agent" back to "user agent" | 02:53 |
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| mosasaur | Ah, but shouldn't an assimilator just assimilate? | 02:53 |
| fenn | it seems right now we either have "agents" or "marks" (in the used car salesman sense of the word) | 02:54 |
| mosasaur | Maybe call it an augmented user interface? | 02:54 |
| fenn | mosasaur: you have to shove data in front of it to assimilate from | 02:54 |
| fenn | it's not a user interface | 02:55 |
| fenn | it's a user agent :( | 02:55 |
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| fenn | the frustrating part about all this is we got it theoretically right from the start | 02:55 |
| fenn | but worse is better | 02:56 |
| mosasaur | Like we have virtual reality and augmented reality, we could have augmented user agents. | 02:56 |
| fenn | whatever | 02:56 |
| fenn | go learn what those words mean | 02:56 |
| mosasaur | I should RTFM? | 02:57 |
| fenn | a user agent is a piece of software that acts on the user's behalf | 02:57 |
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| mosasaur | The way I see it, currently the user is at the mercy of whatever javascript a page uses to capture their eyeballs. | 02:58 |
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| mosasaur | And, current browsers (~user agents) do not act on the user's behalf, far from it. | 02:59 |
| mosasaur | They condition them even, like make them want to click on edit buttons ;-) | 03:00 |
| fenn | well tim berners-lee never got around to adding an edit protocol | 03:01 |
| jrayhawk | fenn: the account signup is because i am too lazy to integrate with a captcha service | 03:01 |
| mosasaur | So we need to augment the user's defenses or something like that. | 03:01 |
| mosasaur | It doesn't do to stick to definitions if reality doesn't conform to them any more. | 03:02 |
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| fenn | i'm not going to make up words just because some wankers that have hundreds of billions of dollars are abusing those words | 03:03 |
| jrayhawk | http edit: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2518 | 03:03 |
| mosasaur | hah, backpeddling now, jrayhawk? | 03:03 |
| jrayhawk | hmm? | 03:03 |
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| fenn | ugh, WebDAV, i always wondered what that was for | 03:04 |
| jrayhawk | though, unfortunately, no mention of "range" is present in that RFC | 03:05 |
| mosasaur | It's kind of strange to mention captcha when talking about bypassing the browser interface. | 03:05 |
| fenn | range? | 03:05 |
| jrayhawk | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_HTTP_header_fields#range-request-header | 03:05 |
| gradstudentbot | I lost my pipette. | 03:06 |
| jrayhawk | mosasaur: just because it is the wrong move doesn't mean users still don't insist upon it | 03:06 |
| mosasaur | Ah OK then. I know what, or who you mean. | 03:07 |
| fenn | the way i see it we just need smarter spam filters | 03:08 |
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| jrayhawk | i am told by other ikiwiki users that there exist no git protocol spambots, yet | 03:08 |
| fenn | if the spam bots are smart enough to contribute apparently meaningful signal to the document, who am I to judge? | 03:08 |
| jrayhawk | so we could just open up git:// to writes | 03:08 |
| fenn | that seems reasonable | 03:09 |
| archels | kanzure: I'm sitting in the same room as the person who maintains CoCoMac | 03:09 |
| archels | (in case you have any constructive criticism that needs, uh, enforcing) | 03:10 |
| fenn | it needs more zen! *thwack* | 03:10 |
| jrayhawk | punchline from the last time i brought this up: 17:27 < kanzure> you might consider my commits to be git spam | 03:10 |
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| fenn | it's helpful to have feedback on why something was considered spam | 03:12 |
| fenn | looking at the rules bayesian filters use is very illuminating about the narrowness of human experience | 03:13 |
| jrayhawk | kanzure: why haven't you written a git object creation bot to test open git:// ports | 03:13 |
| ebowden | Oh Lemminkainen, about BBB crossing: http://boa.unimib.it/bitstream/10281/45152/1/Sancini%20et%20al.%20JNMNT_20132157-7439-4-171(6).pdf | 03:14 |
| jrayhawk | the functional medicine crowd is super excited about BBB permeability | 03:15 |
| jrayhawk | the next frontier in etiology | 03:15 |
| fenn | like, stopping it? | 03:15 |
| mosasaur | if only they could get some dopamine in | 03:15 |
| fenn | cause L-DOPA isn't good enough, apparently | 03:16 |
| mosasaur | it has to be suppressed in the rest of the body | 03:16 |
| fenn | which we know how to do | 03:17 |
| fenn | people take mucuna all the time; i haven't heard of anyone dying | 03:17 |
| fenn | kinda strange that you can get the active ingredient but not the thing that prevents side effects | 03:18 |
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| fenn | "Co-administration of pyridoxine without a DDCI accelerates the peripheral decarboxylation of L-DOPA to such an extent that it negates the effects of L-DOPA administration, a phenomenon that historically caused great confusion." | 03:29 |
| fenn | DDCI = DOPA decarboxylase inhibitor | 03:30 |
| fenn | this is probably the real reason L-DOPA is coadministered with carbidopa | 03:31 |
| fenn | combined therapy potentiates the central effects of l-dopa by decreasing the dose-dependency 4-5 fold, therein allowing for effective Parkinson's Disease treatment without cardiovascular risk associated with high peripheral dopamine | 03:32 |
| mosasaur | I just adminsiter fava beans. It seems periferal suppression enables one to up the dose that reaches the brain to such high levels that it burns out the substantia nigra (IIRC). | 03:33 |
| fenn | wow i didn't know fava beans contained L-DOPA | 03:35 |
| fenn | "One way to use dry beans of the minor type is to sprout them. Sprouting increases the levodopa content of the bean by a factor of five. My rule of thumb is that each sprouted fava bean contains two mg levodopa." | 03:36 |
| mosasaur | I'm talking about only myself ofc, and I don't have Parkinsons as far as I can tell. I don't treat patients nor would I deny them effective treatment. | 03:36 |
| fenn | Levodopa reacts with potassium iodate, at pH 5, to form a reddish-orange compound. The intensity of the colour can be used to measure the amount of levodopa. | 03:38 |
| fenn | of course iodine also reacts with plenty of other stuff | 03:39 |
| fenn | this reminds me of soaking food along with rye berries to try to destroy the phytic acid | 03:42 |
| fenn | since phytic acid binds iron, you can titrate with ferric chloride and see how much the solution tint changes | 03:45 |
| fenn | theoretically at least | 03:45 |
| fenn | hopefully whatever process you're testing wouldn't change the phenol content of the food: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferric_chloride_test | 03:48 |
| mosasaur | If you'd just stick down to earth you'd probably make a good programmer. | 03:52 |
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| fenn | copper also binds to phytic acid so that could serve as a second check | 03:53 |
| fenn | anyway, i decided it was easier to take a mineral supplement | 03:54 |
| fenn | instead of worrying about invisible stuff and soaking grains and all that | 03:54 |
| fenn | the point of the colorimetric test was so i'd know whether these folk traditions actually had the intended effect or not (there's a lot of weird "culture" out there) | 03:56 |
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| fenn | mosasaur: how to get more down to earth than knowing the mineral content of your food? | 03:57 |
| fenn | certainly i'd prefer a GC/MS built into every cell phone, but for some reason the consumer electronics gods haven't seen fit to bless us with such a tool | 03:59 |
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| mosasaur | Food is important yes, but the minerals are not absorbed free of context. | 03:59 |
| fenn | please elaborate | 03:59 |
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| mosasaur | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7610583 | 04:00 |
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| fenn | .title | 04:00 |
| yoleaux | Processed foods that dilute protein content subvert our appetite control systems | 04:00 |
| fenn | this is talking about protein content. anyway, go ahead, try to get your RDA of magnesium by chewing on kale | 04:01 |
| fenn | it's not gonna happen | 04:01 |
| mosasaur | You're right but it's about the general principle that how the stuff is packaged matters. | 04:02 |
| mosasaur | You're too much down to earth now, I know it's complicated. | 04:03 |
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| fenn | i bought a ham for $1.60 per pound, it seems like anyone ought to be able to afford that | 04:05 |
| fenn | it was a real pig leg too, not glued together slime | 04:06 |
| fenn | i think the problem is the average person just doesn't know what's going on | 04:07 |
| fenn | they believe the "heart healthy" labels and think cheerios are health food | 04:07 |
| fenn | they think "i ate something green today, that's vegetables, the rest will take care of itself" | 04:08 |
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| fenn | i wonder what would have happened if joseph stalin never took over the soviet union | 04:10 |
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| fenn | mosasaur: probably the only good comment on that thread https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7610772 | 04:13 |
| mosasaur | just admit, they had you at "Screw it" | 04:14 |
| fenn | no actually i started at f) and worked backward | 04:15 |
| mosasaur | Ah OK ;-) | 04:15 |
| mosasaur | I don't like f) because paleo-lacto-ovo-pescetarianism is obviously the best way to go. | 04:19 |
| mosasaur | But that's just because it's getting harder and harder to acquire proteins as a vegetarian. | 04:20 |
| fenn | i'm undecided on milk; see our above conversation about lectins and autoimmunity | 04:20 |
| mosasaur | Yeah not milk, but yoghurt is somewhat OK. | 04:21 |
| fenn | i like kefir | 04:21 |
| fenn | hard to find good yogurt | 04:21 |
| fenn | i dont know if you're being sarcastic or not | 04:22 |
| mosasaur | I don't know if you care | 04:23 |
| gradstudentbot | The autoclave smells really good. | 04:23 |
| fenn | i don't | 04:23 |
| mosasaur | Just what I thought | 04:23 |
| fenn | glad that's settled | 04:23 |
| fenn | if you just ate huge quantities of salmon you're probably fine | 04:24 |
| mosasaur | I did | 04:24 |
| mosasaur | I do have stacks of creatine in case my conscience kicks in though. | 04:25 |
| fenn | they started selling foil lined pouches of tuna and salmon a couple years ago, very logistically convenient | 04:25 |
| fenn | but twice the price of canned | 04:25 |
| fenn | oh well | 04:25 |
| mosasaur | Over here canned is the more expensive item. | 04:27 |
| mosasaur | Did you compare weight or just price per item? | 04:28 |
| fenn | price per drained weight | 04:28 |
| fenn | the pouches are pre-drained | 04:28 |
| mosasaur | I ate a lot of steamed mackerel too the last few weeks but now I can't stand the thing anymore. | 04:29 |
| fenn | did you mean carnitine? | 04:30 |
| mosasaur | No, creatine. I do have carnitine too, but I never noticed it having any effect. | 04:31 |
| ebowden | Creatine dodecyl ester is showing promise as a source of creatine that penetrates the blood-brain-barrier. | 04:32 |
| mosasaur | Creatine seems to help me recover earlier from exercise, especially in combination with vitamin B, but that has to be combined with lecithin to counteract the headache the next morning, possibly from the niacin in the vitamin B concentrate. | 04:33 |
| fenn | are you taking piracetam? (or some other racetam) | 04:34 |
| fenn | lecithin is a source of choline that prevents piracetam headaches (i don't really understand why you get headaches) | 04:35 |
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| mosasaur | I'm now off all supplements except a vitamin pill each day. When I start seriously exercising again, or drop the fish eating, I guess I'll have to compensate with supplements somehow. I don't take any drugs, not even even coffee or alcohol. OK maybe chocolate milk. | 04:37 |
| ebowden | Oh, apparently, noopept works by a similar mechanism, and is a lot more potent than piracetam. | 04:37 |
| mosasaur | Oh maybe the fava beans could be a nootropic. | 04:37 |
| fenn | levodopa is definitely a nootropic | 04:38 |
| mosasaur | Yes, I think it's the choline that counteracts the niacine, but I don't know except that it works. | 04:38 |
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| gradstudentbot | It's contaminated. | 04:39 |
| mosasaur | But the creatine enhances the niacin headache somehow? | 04:40 |
| mosasaur | Eggs help against that headache too. | 04:45 |
| mosasaur | But anyway without all that artificial stuff pumping up one's body and getting systems out of balance, things are much better. Like eating lots of fruit and unprocessed food. | 04:47 |
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| fenn | creatine might be aggravating high blood pressure; you might just have a "hangover". try drinking pedialyte after exercising next time | 04:51 |
| fenn | unprocessed food tends to be higher in potassium | 04:51 |
| fenn | avocados are also good | 04:52 |
| mosasaur | I've got potassium pills too | 04:52 |
| fenn | it's just potassium chloride in a capsule? | 04:52 |
| mosasaur | Yeah potassium chloride. I actually prefer the citrate but they only sell that over the border and I am out of supply now. | 04:54 |
| mosasaur | No it's not high blood pressure I think. Because some salmiak containing sweets or rooibos tea gives me really high blood pressure (like swollen feet and hands and stuff in case of the sweets) but they never cause headaches. | 05:00 |
| fenn | potassium chloride pills were banned because they can be fatal. however you'd have to be insane to take 47 pills at once http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=361214 | 05:00 |
| mosasaur | And it's not tension headache but something at the back of my head just above the neck. Especially inconvenient while trying to masturbate because the effect peaks synchronously. | 05:01 |
| fenn | i had some reference about creatine boosting steroid hormone conversion (aldosterone and testosterone are both steroids) and maybe this reaction needs niacin to proceed (i lost the reference though) | 05:04 |
| mosasaur | Different things are banned in different countries, for example in Germany over the border I can buy potassium citrate but now over here in the Netherlands. And here i can buy melatonin that seems to be proscribed in some other countries. | 05:05 |
| mosasaur | now ==> not | 05:05 |
| gradstudentbot | I don't remember the paper, but someone definitely did that. | 05:06 |
| mosasaur | Right something something testosterone but it's nearly impossible to figure out how all these things connect so better not go there and just eat healthy food, not a lot. | 05:07 |
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| fenn | lol. it's figuring out what's "healthy" that's the problem | 05:11 |
| mosasaur | That's where the paleo philosophy kicks in. Although I had a hard time accepting that early humans might have been meat eaters. | 05:13 |
| fenn | watching "survivorman" or "naked and afraid" it starts to make sense | 05:13 |
| mosasaur | I think maybe we're just glorified fruit picking machines that also consume fish. | 05:13 |
| mosasaur | The aquatic human theory, or at least one that traveled parallel a shore. | 05:14 |
| fenn | amphibious | 05:15 |
| fenn | we have snorkels on our face (a nose) | 05:15 |
| mosasaur | And we're nearly hairless | 05:15 |
| fenn | dolphins don't have snorkels | 05:15 |
| mosasaur | if it's a snorkel it's upside down | 05:15 |
| fenn | uh, it's a thing that keeps water from rushing straight down into your lungs | 05:16 |
| fenn | i dont know if there's even a word for that | 05:17 |
| mosasaur | a valve | 05:17 |
| fenn | it's not a valve, it's passive | 05:17 |
| mosasaur | a sifon | 05:18 |
| mosasaur | What's most telling is babies seem to have an underwater reflex. | 05:19 |
| fenn | diving hood maybe | 05:19 |
| fenn | diving bell | 05:20 |
| mosasaur | Ofc people trying if kittens have the same reflex would be instantly lynched | 05:21 |
| fenn | every toilet in the world works on this principle, how is there not a name for it? | 05:21 |
| fenn | i guess it's a siphon | 05:23 |
| mosasaur | an inverted siphon | 05:23 |
| mosasaur | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siphon | 05:23 |
| mosasaur | Anyway, we were talking about healthy food, why not just minerals etc. | 05:26 |
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| fenn | it seems like the hardest ones to get are magnesium, chromium, selenium, iodine | 05:27 |
| JayDugger | Micronutrients? | 05:27 |
| fenn | maybe zinc | 05:28 |
| fenn | jeez chromium isn't even in the database? | 05:28 |
| mosasaur | There you go again, one can't just eat zinc, it must be delivered in the right way, accompanied by the right kind of other stuff. | 05:30 |
| mosasaur | In one form it may be toxic, in another it might help vitamin A to improve eyesight. | 05:31 |
| fenn | of course of course, but zinc methionate is pretty standard | 05:31 |
| fenn | albion did a lot of research in the 1980's with optimizing mineral delivery by amino acid chelates in animal feed; turns out humans are animals and it works for us too | 05:32 |
| fenn | magnesium glycinate costs more than magnesium citrate; i don't know if it's worth it, but magnesium citrate is good enough for me | 05:33 |
| fenn | i haven't messed with iodine yet but there's a whole book on it: http://lewisford.info/iodide.html | 05:34 |
| mosasaur | the citrate comes in big white pills that dissolve in water while making bubbles | 05:34 |
| fenn | no it comes in tiny glass soda bottles and they're carbonated | 05:35 |
| fenn | citric acid + magnesium carbonate will give you magnesium citrate, but it will be ionic, not a chelate | 05:35 |
| mosasaur | I'm not sure if you're sarcastic | 05:35 |
| fenn | magnesium citrate oral solution USP: http://www.walgreens.com/store/c/walgreens-magnesium-citrate-saline-laxative-oral-solution-grape/ID=prod5604183-product | 05:37 |
| FourFire | "potassium chloride pills were banned because they can be fatal. however you'd have to be insane to take 47 pills at once" a certain percentage of the population is provably insane | 05:37 |
| fenn | these are not mutually contradictory statements | 05:37 |
| FourFire | " And it's not tension headache but something at the back of my head just above the neck. Especially inconvenient while trying to masturbate because the effect peaks synchronously." that's unfortunate | 05:38 |
| FourFire | fenn, how is a nose a snorkel ?? | 05:39 |
| mosasaur | http://www.proz.com/kudoz/german_to_english/medical%3A_pharmaceuticals/223624-kalinor_brause.html | 05:39 |
| FourFire | oh ok | 05:39 |
| fenn | it keeps the air in and the water out | 05:39 |
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| mosasaur | effervescent tablets | 05:40 |
| fenn | yeah i have some Nuun hydration tablets | 05:40 |
| mosasaur | also, potassium not magnesium | 05:40 |
| fenn | believe it or not, they are different elements | 05:41 |
| mosasaur | Hi fourfire, I hope you're not lagging? | 05:43 |
| fenn | 500ml of nuun electrolyte replacement formula contains: Na 360, K 100, Ca 12, Mg 25, vitamin C 37.5, vitmain B2 0.5, and a bunch of citrate | 05:44 |
| mosasaur | I thought we were supposed to believe those things are just marketing fluff? | 05:45 |
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| fenn | 25 mg of magnesium is only 6% of your RDA | 05:46 |
| fenn | it's better than gatorade though | 05:46 |
| fenn | too much sodium IMHO | 05:46 |
| fenn | everything you need to know about minerals and diet: http://krispin.com/potassm.html http://krispin.com/magnes.html http://krispin.com/thyroid.html | 05:53 |
| mosasaur | http://www.epgonline.org/drugs/de/kalinor%C2%AEbrausetabletten/ better link, the other still claims it's the chlorate, which is not the case | 05:53 |
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| mosasaur | Right, speed up the metabolism via the thyroid. The only problem is it's a very delicate balance and probably ends up being very bad for your health. | 05:56 |
| fenn | it only speeds up if you had a mineral deficiency that was causing hypothyroidism | 05:57 |
| fenn | i mean, don't just go take some random gland extract for fun | 05:57 |
| mosasaur | or if you're forced to write a patient clustering AI by a mad professor | 05:58 |
| fenn | I plead the fifth | 05:58 |
| fenn | time for bed | 06:02 |
| cluckj | O_o | 06:03 |
| mosasaur | night fenn ;-) | 06:03 |
| fenn | good time of day, citizens of the world! | 06:05 |
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| ebowden | Night. | 06:08 |
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| JayDugger | Morning. | 06:29 |
| cluckj | sup | 06:34 |
| eudoxia | JayDugger: judging by your github history i'm guessing you know this: is there some Anki plugin that lets me store the cards as simple text files in a tree of directories? | 06:36 |
| eudoxia | so i can eg put them in a github repo, generate them from a script, etc. | 06:36 |
| JayDugger | eudoxia, I don't think any such thing exists. | 06:38 |
| JayDugger | If you've already checked the on-line list of add-ons, then I can suggest a few things. | 06:38 |
| JayDugger | You might just get what you want from correctly formatted CSV files. | 06:39 |
| eudoxia | JayDugger: would i have to manually import them every time i started anki? | 06:40 |
| JayDugger | You might have a directory tree of plain text files, and you might have a script which mapped their absolute filenames and their content to... | 06:41 |
| JayDugger | Yeah, you would. | 06:41 |
| JayDugger | Perhaps (i.e., I have no idea if) you could do so by directly interacting with Anki's SQLite databases. | 06:41 |
| JayDugger | That's probably a question for the developers. | 06:42 |
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| JayDugger | You wouldn't quite need to import the whole tree every time, but you'd need to do that every time the tree's contents changed. | 06:43 |
| JayDugger | Import would turn files into notes, and Anki would track scheduling once the notes existed. | 06:43 |
| JayDugger | Anki has got plain text export for cards and notes though, and on a per-deck basis. | 06:44 |
| eudoxia | hm, thanks for the info | 06:46 |
| JayDugger | Not much of an answer, I'm afraid, but you're welcome. | 06:46 |
| eudoxia | i suppose the simplest path would be a program that generated an XML import from a tree of text files | 06:46 |
| eudoxia | i'm gonna see what i come up with | 06:47 |
| JayDugger | Good luck! | 06:47 |
| eudoxia | thanks C: | 06:48 |
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| FourFire | "<mosasaur> Hi fourfire, I hope you're not lagging?" only by a couple of hours | 07:07 |
| FourFire | Temporal distortion is... hard | 07:07 |
| eudoxia | living beyond half a light hour would suck | 07:09 |
| eudoxia | "yes hello mr. nasa man please make the following google searches" | 07:09 |
| FourFire | eudoxia, lol, what's going to happen when mars is eventually colonized | 07:14 |
| FourFire | will they just be mostly disconnected with their local cache? | 07:14 |
| FourFire | I know that Craig Venter has worked on some InterPlanetary Internet protocol | 07:15 |
| eudoxia | they'll probably use asynchronous proxies for synchronous behaviour | 07:15 |
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| ParahSailin | hm, parallela shipped out to me | 07:54 |
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| FourFire | ParahSailin, cool, do you have the 16 or 64 version? | 09:01 |
| ParahSailin | 16 | 09:02 |
| FourFire | what're you using it for? | 09:02 |
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| ParahSailin | currently dont have one | 09:04 |
| FourFire | I mean, what are you going to be using it for, something specific, or just something to hack on? | 09:07 |
| chris_99 | whatcha talking about? | 09:11 |
| ParahSailin | yeah, mostly derping around | 09:12 |
| ParahSailin | the adapteva parallela | 09:12 |
| chris_99 | aha cool | 09:12 |
| chris_99 | i wanted to get one of thoses | 09:13 |
| chris_99 | i'm curious you know their own processor part uses OpenCL | 09:13 |
| chris_99 | how does that part stack up to a GPU i wondr | 09:13 |
| chris_99 | (i realise theres an FPGA and ARM part too) | 09:13 |
| FourFire | yeah I'm interested in it's capabilities vs a GPU | 09:35 |
| FourFire | if it truly is as power efficient as they claim | 09:36 |
| FourFire | but I want the 64 version, and the pluralcore roadmap versions | 09:36 |
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| chris_99 | if it's just like 16 gpu cores, it's not that impressive is it? | 09:42 |
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| kanzure | 03:09 < archels> kanzure: I'm sitting in the same room as the person who maintains CoCoMac | 09:51 |
| kanzure | 03:10 < archels> (in case you have any constructive criticism that needs, uh, enforcing) | 09:51 |
| kanzure | god bless this channel | 09:51 |
| kanzure | 03:13 < jrayhawk> kanzure: why haven't you written a git object creation bot to test open git:// ports | 09:52 |
| kanzure | why would i give when i could just take? | 09:52 |
| kanzure | eudoxia: don't waste your time on anki | 09:58 |
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| kanzure | http://www.ludumdare.com/compo/ | 10:05 |
| kanzure | oh yeah, they do livestreaming these days. that's neat. | 10:06 |
| kanzure | i can't remember which ludum dare i participated in. must have been 2003ish? | 10:06 |
| chris_99 | what did you make? | 10:07 |
| kanzure | no idea | 10:08 |
| ParahSailin | i am slightly confused though, FourFire, have they actually fabbed 64 core asics or is it just 4 ics on a board | 10:19 |
| kanzure | http://www.the-odin.com/ "I have been working hard lately to build a store that provides consumables and materials and equipment to small labs and DIYBio people and it is almost ready to open" | 10:19 |
| kanzure | josiah zayner <josiah.p.zayner@nasa.gov> | 10:19 |
| FourFire | ParahSailin, they actually fabbed 64 core chips | 10:21 |
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| ParahSailin | dang thats too bad they didnt let the kickstarter people upgrade | 10:22 |
| FourFire | but they said they were only going to produce them if they reached their stretch goal (kickstarter), and they didn't | 10:22 |
| FourFire | so they have one batch of 64 core "engineering samples" | 10:22 |
| FourFire | and that batch which was preordered gets delivered to the original backers, but otherwise they aren't selling anything besides the 16 core one | 10:23 |
| FourFire | which sort of sucks from my perspective, as I was interested in using lots of the manycore boards for a project | 10:23 |
| chris_99 | what was the project? | 10:24 |
| FourFire | they are weaker than GPUs of course, but if openGL can run on them, they should certainly beat performance per watt*dollar for my application at least | 10:25 |
| FourFire | chris_99, Massively parallel Molecular Dynamics | 10:25 |
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| chris_99 | sounds cool, that means modelling chemical reactions? | 10:25 |
| FourFire | I want to use an evolutionary algorithm to design molecules | 10:26 |
| chris_99 | oh | 10:26 |
| chris_99 | what kind of molecules? | 10:26 |
| kanzure | molecular dynamics is often "does this molecule hold together" | 10:26 |
| FourFire | based on how they perform in certain reactions with specified environmental values | 10:26 |
| chris_99 | ah | 10:26 |
| FourFire | but basically yes | 10:26 |
| FourFire | doing chemistry on a computer | 10:27 |
| gradstudentbot | Yeah, there's a clear trend. | 10:28 |
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| kanzure | "Brazil has an nation wide agreement providing journal access to 423 research institutions. It is called Portal de Periódicos, provided by CAPES. According to its 2013 financial report [1], last year CAPES spent US$ 93,872,151.11 (with US$ 31,644,204.12 paid to Elsevier). " | 10:33 |
| kanzure | "Some institutions that are not covered by the agreement, as they do not meet the eligibility criteria, had to pay in separate in order to get access to this portal, spending an additional of US$ 11,560,438.93. " | 10:33 |
| kanzure | http://www.capes.gov.br/images/stories/download/Contas_Publicas/Relatorio-de-Gestao-2013.pdf | 10:33 |
| entelechios | jesus christ | 10:34 |
| entelechios | thats actually the kind of money per nation that can afford it paid to these assholes? | 10:35 |
| entelechios | i'm just a little dumbstruck here | 10:37 |
| kanzure | it's an arms dealer, what would you expect | 10:38 |
| kanzure | "buy our science or we will blow you the fuck up" | 10:38 |
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| nmz787_i | is there a good function in python handles malformed paths (i.e. \ \\ or /)? | 11:17 |
| nmz787_i | this is for windows, so I don't think spaces in dirs need escaped, I don't think that a user would do that either, but they might use forward slashes | 11:18 |
| ParahSailin | i bet in windows the os.path functions handle forward and backslashes correctly | 11:20 |
| ParahSailin | yeah, path.normpath("C:\derp/derp") -> 'C:\\derp\\derp' | 11:23 |
| kanzure | import ntpath | 11:25 |
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| kanzure | http://www.theonion.com/articles/project-manager-leaves-suicide-powerpoint-presenta,1290/ | 11:54 |
| kanzure | "Ron clearly spent a lot of time on that presentation. If the subject matter weren't so heavy, we'd probably use it to train his replacement." | 11:54 |
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| entelechios | "We all got Ron's message loud and clear when that JPEG of his wife wipe-transitioned to a photo of her tombstone," coworker Anne Thibideux said. | 12:01 |
| entelechios | hahaha | 12:01 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, I sent you a love letter on HN | 12:02 |
| kanzure | give me a link if you want me to see it | 12:03 |
| delinquentme | advice if I'm to talk to someone from a publishing company? | 12:10 |
| kanzure | have something to say | 12:10 |
| delinquentme | Should I have a lawyer before I reach out to them? because "fair use" type stuff? | 12:10 |
| kanzure | don't waste doug's time | 12:10 |
| delinquentme | ha | 12:11 |
| delinquentme | what makes you say that kanzure | 12:11 |
| kanzure | it's always a good idea to not waste people's time | 12:11 |
| kanzure | otherwise they get grumpy like me | 12:11 |
| delinquentme | well I think you're just trying to be a dick without motivation and no substance because you can and its the internet | 12:11 |
| delinquentme | so if theres substance to the claim I'll listen to it | 12:11 |
| delinquentme | but I think you're just being a dick | 12:11 |
| kanzure | here's an alternative theory, i said "have something to say" because i really think it's good advice | 12:12 |
| delinquentme | I'm taken aback that you think I wouldn't | 12:12 |
| kanzure | well, you're telling me i'm being a dick, which indicates you don't | 12:13 |
| delinquentme | Also its not pivotal to go in saying ' I have suggestions ' ... but simply BEING someone whos done this shit ... makes it valuable to him | 12:13 |
| delinquentme | you're being a dick because of the presupposed time wasting. | 12:13 |
| delinquentme | because you're well a dick like that, which I wish you wouldn't be | 12:14 |
| delinquentme | however for some reason you feel predisposed to be | 12:14 |
| delinquentme | *shrug* maybe you just didn't think about it before you said it. | 12:15 |
| delinquentme | seriously kanzure what can I do to help with this issue you're taking. Do you want me to list you as a co-conspirator on this project? | 12:32 |
| delinquentme | I want to get along with you man. I think this kind of shit is stupid and damaging to the overall good | 12:33 |
| kanzure | if you truly believe that then you need to stop thinking that i'm out to get you | 12:34 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, i think theres some underlying motivation which caused you to say " dont waste someones time " | 12:35 |
| delinquentme | True? | 12:35 |
| delinquentme | Because either its wildly unconsidered ... which I dont think you're THAT a-emotional or you're pissed about it | 12:36 |
| kanzure | pissed about what? | 12:36 |
| delinquentme | You're avoiding the question | 12:36 |
| kanzure | uh | 12:37 |
| delinquentme | what was the underlying motivation | 12:37 |
| kanzure | i wanted to give you advice | 12:38 |
| delinquentme | if you want listed or more credit on the OpSci project say it | 12:38 |
| kanzure | haven't heard that name in a while | 12:38 |
| delinquentme | You gave me the journal list on it. I executed on it | 12:38 |
| kanzure | i don't think that telling doug about opsci is going to do anything interesting | 12:39 |
| delinquentme | I dont either. But I think the conversation would be. | 12:39 |
| kanzure | uh? | 12:39 |
| kanzure | why | 12:40 |
| * delinquentme facepalm | 12:40 | |
| kanzure | zotero is much more widely known and has more coverage, and i'm pretty certain he's aware of software such as zotero | 12:40 |
| kanzure | (coverage as in publisher coverage of course) | 12:40 |
| kanzure | telling him about scraper automation just doesn't seem to be useful | 12:41 |
| kanzure | he doesn't need scrapers, he has his own data, right? | 12:41 |
| gradstudentbot | No, you can't borrow my pipette. | 12:41 |
| delinquentme | point taken | 12:42 |
| kanzure | if anything, what he needs is a way to change his business into something that will survive the collapse of the academic publishing industry | 12:43 |
| kanzure | even as the academic publishing industry collapses, giant megacorps like elsevier will take a loooong time to completely die | 12:44 |
| kanzure | including his own | 12:44 |
| kanzure | there's a bunch of competing trends that probably seem bad from the perspective of publishers | 12:45 |
| kanzure | open access copyright licenses, grant funding agencies insisting on certain legal terms, collapse of NIH/NSF funding | 12:46 |
| kanzure | p2p file sharing | 12:46 |
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| kanzure | bustable DRM and watermarks | 12:46 |
| kanzure | "altmetrics" | 12:46 |
| kanzure | preprint servers | 12:46 |
| kanzure | and then second-order effects, stuff like mendeley (which got acquired of course), google scholar, MOOCs and a possible downtrend in traditional university structure (which might stop the faucet of cheap science labor eventually) | 12:47 |
| kanzure | oh yeah, and then the insane working conditions of researchers, "postdocs" are considered junior, the low pay of basically all science-related industries | 12:48 |
| kanzure | dwindling library budgets to pay subscription fees | 12:48 |
| kanzure | and then there's all the weird dynamics at play inside of the publishers: researchers are *paying* them to publish their papers, often per page or per figure, which is a really broken dynamic that leaves them vulnerable in a lot of places | 12:49 |
| kanzure | 12:59 < betkowski> How many people submitted games last LD? | 12:59 |
| kanzure | 12:59 < OmegaVesko> betkowski: 2400 or so, I think | 12:59 |
| entelechios | nice rant | 13:16 |
| kanzure | he's the one calling me a dick but he *leaves* halfway through a wonderful rant, pfft | 13:17 |
| entelechios | i think i know the difference between you being a dick and you having something interesting to say | 13:18 |
| entelechios | you've bluntly told me to 'fuck off' before | 13:18 |
| kanzure | yes, but what were you saying at the time? | 13:19 |
| entelechios | i think i was asking archels if he had any thoughts on hamerhoff and penrose's theories | 13:19 |
| kanzure | oh yeah, that's definitely a valid reason to tell you to get out and/or lost | 13:20 |
| entelechios | that won't convince me though | 13:20 |
| entelechios | you oughta work on your rhetoric a little maybe | 13:20 |
| entelechios | seems to be rubbing people the wrong way here | 13:20 |
| entelechios | i mean ultimately your goal should be persuading people to think the way you think if you really think you're right | 13:21 |
| kanzure | haha no there's a history with delinquentme where he thinks i'm an asshole, don't read too much into it | 13:21 |
| kanzure | why should i bother persuading you to not talk about penrose? | 13:21 |
| entelechios | no, because i think you can be an asshole too sometimes. and i think you oughta persuade me that their theories are shit if you really think that way rather than 'fuck off' | 13:21 |
| kanzure | i don't mind people talking about those thoeries somewhere, just not here | 13:21 |
| kanzure | i'm not really upset that there's people who talk about penrose's ideas | 13:22 |
| kanzure | lots of people talk about all sorts of things out there | 13:22 |
| entelechios | why wouldn't it be open to discussion | 13:22 |
| entelechios | i still don't hear any well presented reasons | 13:22 |
| kanzure | signla/noise | 13:22 |
| kanzure | *signal | 13:22 |
| kanzure | signal/noise is the lazy answer | 13:23 |
| entelechios | and so you're the CRM114 discriminator here? | 13:23 |
| kanzure | i don't know if that analogy fits, i'm dropping a bomb on a city and there's a recall code that consists of quantum theories about consciousness? | 13:24 |
| entelechios | it works by only listening up when certain tones are sent to it and shutting out everything else to the peril of the world | 13:25 |
| kanzure | so i'm destroying the planet because i don't believe that quantum consciousness is something worth subjecting the channel to? | 13:25 |
| kanzure | i get this a lot. next you're going to tell me i'm a bioterrorist, right? | 13:25 |
| entelechios | no, i won't tell you you're a bioterrorist | 13:26 |
| kanzure | alright | 13:26 |
| entelechios | that's kind of a funny thing to call someone | 13:26 |
| entelechios | kanzure, you're a cybersex god | 13:27 |
| entelechios | and a social media guru | 13:28 |
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| kanzure | http://www.jove.com/video/50630/a-computer-assisted-multi-electrode-patch-clamp-system | 13:58 |
| kanzure | "A biophysically detailed model of neocortical local field potentials predicts the critical role of active membrane currents" http://hearingbrain.org/docs/ReimannEtAl_LFPmodel.pdf | 13:59 |
| kanzure | "We simulated the LFP in a model of the rodent neocortical column composed of >12,000 reconstructed, multicompartmental, and spiking cortical layer 4 and 5 pyramidal neurons and basket cells, including five million dendritic and somatic compartments with voltage- and ion-dependent currents, realistic connectivity, and probabilistic AMPA, NMDA, and GABA synapses. We found that, depending on a number of factors, the LFP reflects local and ... | 13:59 |
| kanzure | ... cross-layer processing. Active currents dominate the generation of LFPs, not synaptic ones. Spike-related currents impact the LFP not only at higher frequencies but below 50 Hz." | 13:59 |
| kanzure | fenn: here's one you might like, | 14:08 |
| kanzure | "New insights into the classification and nomenclature of cortical GABAergic interneurons" http://real.mtak.hu/6584/7/MainText.pdf | 14:08 |
| jrayhawk | "05:12 < mosasaur> Although I had a hard time accepting that early humans might have been meat eaters." there's a big switchover from C3 to C4 ecology about 1.5 million years ago, about the same time eoliths and marks of tool-based butchering start showing up on animal bones. | 14:13 |
| jrayhawk | Of note, humans do not manufacture mk4 and need to get it through C4-consuming intermediary animals. | 14:14 |
| nsh | what's all this jibberjabber | 14:15 |
| nsh | mk4? C4? | 14:15 |
| nsh | .g c3 c4 ecology | 14:15 |
| yoleaux | http://dare.uva.nl/document/196233 | 14:15 |
| nsh | .t | 14:15 |
| yoleaux | Fri, 25 Apr 2014 21:15:48 UTC | 14:15 |
| jrayhawk | (also of note is that humans do not manufacture DHA and need to get it through aquatic animals, but you already seem sold on that) | 14:17 |
| jrayhawk | nsh: mk4 is menaquinone with 4 isoprene units | 14:20 |
| jrayhawk | it is an animal form distinct from the plant-based menaquinone with 7 isoprene units | 14:21 |
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| jrayhawk | oh, he's not even in here | 14:25 |
| jrayhawk | poops | 14:25 |
| gradstudentbot | Yeah, but his project was so easy. | 14:28 |
| nsh | thanks | 14:32 |
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| xentrac | 17:15 < jrayhawk> (also of note is that humans do not manufacture DHA and need to get it through aquatic animals, but you already seem sold on that) | 15:10 |
| xentrac | does that mean humans can't live on land-based food alone? | 15:10 |
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| FourFire | I've read a story of someone who ate only chicken nuggets and chips for 17 years | 15:12 |
| jrayhawk | xentrac: not very well; along with being used to construct eicosanoids, DHA is used for building every part of a neuron. | 15:21 |
| jrayhawk | Cognitive decline is the usual result. | 15:21 |
| xentrac | what's the possible connection between C₃→C₄ and butchering? | 15:23 |
| jrayhawk | Different food chains. A transition from direct frugivorous diets to grassland carnivorous diets. | 15:24 |
| jrayhawk | .g c3 c4 isotope human diet | 15:25 |
| yoleaux | http://luna.cas.usf.edu/~rtykot/10%20Tykot.pdf | 15:25 |
| jrayhawk | .g selective butchering million years | 15:26 |
| yoleaux | http://www.nature.com/scitable/knowledge/library/evidence-for-meat-eating-by-early-humans-103874273 | 15:26 |
| jrayhawk | (Vegetarians like to ignore the butchering part and claim we switched over to eating grass 1.5 million years ago, which is pretty funny) | 15:27 |
| jrayhawk | oh, my timeline is completely wrong. 3.5 Ma? dayum. | 15:29 |
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| xentrac | well, we do eat a lot of grass today | 15:34 |
| xentrac | I mean, wheat, rye, millet, sorghum, corn, and so on are grasses | 15:34 |
| xentrac | also rice | 15:34 |
| xentrac | http://www.health.harvard.edu/fhg/updates/Why-not-flaxseed-oil.shtml claims that you can get adequate DHA from flax (which is also a grass) | 15:36 |
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| xentrac | to be more specific, it claims that humans do manufacture DHA from ALA, and by consuming a lot of ALA you can get enough DHA | 15:37 |
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| xentrac | like 10×. so to equal one of the 2g pills at <http://www.amazon.com/Omega-Fish-Pills-Counts-Health-Supporting/dp/B00CAZAU62> | 15:46 |
| xentrac | which contain 600mg DHA | 15:46 |
| xentrac | you need to eat 6g of ALA, which is about 25g of flax seed | 15:46 |
| xentrac | which is close to what flaxseed vendors recommend you eat per day | 15:47 |
| xentrac | it's also a lot smallr than the amount of fish (say, 170g) you need to eat to get the same amount of DHA | 15:47 |
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| Phyks | hi | 15:50 |
| kanzure | hello | 15:50 |
| xentrac | flaxseed is kind of an outlier though when it comes to ω-3 contents. but it seems like even things like olives, chia seeds, hemp seeds, or soybeans might be in the same ballpark as fish when it comes to DHA? | 15:51 |
| Phyks | kanzure: actually, I'm writing some biblio management script for myself and I need some functionnalities similar to paperbot | 15:51 |
| kanzure | zotero has a browser extension | 15:52 |
| Phyks | I know about it, but it doesn't fit my needs | 15:52 |
| Phyks | I just want some kind of extended paperbot on my local computer : | 15:52 |
| Phyks | :) | 15:52 |
| kanzure | can you describe the input and the output? | 15:53 |
| Phyks | do you know mpc ? | 15:53 |
| kanzure | .g mpc | 15:53 |
| yoleaux | http://www.moving-picture.com/ | 15:53 |
| kanzure | movie studio? | 15:53 |
| Phyks | my idea for the (basic) interface is a bit the same : script import PDF_FILE to import a file, script download LINK to download it, and search it the same way as the mpc search engine | 15:54 |
| Phyks | (mpc = music player client, a client for mpd) | 15:54 |
| kanzure | mpc search engine does local search? | 15:54 |
| Phyks | it does search in a MPD music library | 15:54 |
| Phyks | (but I just mention it because you can do something like mpc search artist SOME_ARTIST) | 15:55 |
| xentrac | I'm fasting today so I should stop talking about food. it's making me hungry. | 15:55 |
| Phyks | each time I import / dl a pdf, I fetch metadata from DOI / ISBN search in pdf fulltext and query on servers. I maintain a bibtex index for all papers | 15:56 |
| Phyks | and now, I'm working about the "download" part and paperbot may fit my needs, to include it as some kind of module | 15:56 |
| kanzure | you might also be interested in https://github.com/kanzure/pdfparanoia | 15:56 |
| kanzure | i don't have a pdf2doi tool yet | 15:56 |
| Phyks | yep, I saw this one, I'm really interested in pdfpranoia | 15:56 |
| Phyks | kanzure: it's poorly written but here are the necessary functions for PDF2DOI : https://github.com/Phyks/BiblioManager/blob/master/main.py | 15:57 |
| Phyks | (check findDOI and doi2Bib functions) | 15:57 |
| kanzure | does it use pdftotext | 15:57 |
| Phyks | yes | 15:57 |
| Phyks | best way I could find | 15:57 |
| kanzure | hmm | 15:57 |
| Phyks | way faster than pdf modules in python | 15:57 |
| Phyks | (and much more reliable) | 15:58 |
| kanzure | how do you know which doi corresponds to the paper? sometimes doi numbers appear in the bibliography inside the paper. | 15:58 |
| Phyks | just a test : | 15:58 |
| Phyks | paperbot: http://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.112.025302 | 15:58 |
| Phyks | paperbot: http://journals.aps.org/prl/pdf/10.1103/PhysRevLett.112.025302 | 15:59 |
| kanzure | sometimes paperbot is slow | 15:59 |
| Phyks | ok | 15:59 |
| gradstudentbot | Yeah, I'm a 4th year. No wait, I'm a 6th year. | 15:59 |
| Phyks | kanzure: I take the first matched DOI | 15:59 |
| Phyks | I tested it in my papers, and it works quite nice | 16:00 |
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| Phyks | it's a rewrite of this code http://en.dogeno.us/2010/02/release-a-python-script-for-organizing-scientific-papers-pyrenamepdf-py/, which was working well according to this post | 16:00 |
| gradstudentbot | Friends don't let friends go to super school. | 16:00 |
| kanzure | hm | 16:01 |
| Phyks | kanzure: so, both links should be ok for paperbot, right ? | 16:01 |
| paperbot | RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded in cmp (file "/usr/lib/python2.7/_weakrefset.py", line 73, in __contains__) | 16:01 |
| paperbot | RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded in cmp (file "/usr/lib/python2.7/_weakrefset.py", line 73, in __contains__) | 16:01 |
| Phyks | I think for my code, I will then drop zotero-translation-server and just use the second one | 16:01 |
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| kanzure | delinquentme: you left halfway through the conversation, http://gnusha.org/logs/2014-04-25.log | 17:19 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, how are you handling async w phantom.js | 17:19 |
| delinquentme | yeah had new packages installed --- needed reboot | 17:19 |
| kanzure | often with this: http://npmjs.org/package/q | 17:19 |
| kanzure | this is very useful for using node modules in phantomjs: https://www.npmjs.org/package/phantomjsify | 17:20 |
| jrayhawk | xentrac: No, conversion efficiency is below measurement margine of error in nonpregnant women, and pregnant women are a weird special case because they're releasing it in huge amounts from stores. | 17:20 |
| jrayhawk | s/margine/margin/ | 17:20 |
| jrayhawk | s/nonpregnant women/non-(pregnant women) | 17:21 |
| delinquentme | have a working example of node.js and q that I can copy ? | 17:22 |
| delinquentme | login form preferable | 17:22 |
| kanzure | no, i use q for the main phantomjs context | 17:25 |
| kanzure | and sometimes i use substack's mitm html injection thing so that i can load up browserify stuff straight into each page before it even loads in phantomjs | 17:25 |
| kanzure | gah what was the thing called | 17:25 |
| kanzure | schooldeath.. something. | 17:26 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/substack/schoolbus | 17:26 |
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| xentrac | jrayhawk: what you are saying seems not to be a mainstream medical or biological point of view | 17:39 |
| xentrac | I'm obviously not familiar enough with the field to make a stronger statement than that | 17:40 |
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| jrayhawk | I don't care what the mainstream medical or biological point of view is, I care what the actual papers say. | 18:03 |
| xentrac | the mainstream medical and biological points of view represent a weighting of the conflicting information in the actual papers for credibility and consistency | 18:07 |
| xentrac | much like what you're doing | 18:07 |
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| xentrac | but I notice you didn't link to any actual papers | 18:08 |
| jrayhawk | Wheel of epistemology, turn turn turn, tell us the lesson that we should learn... | 18:09 |
| jrayhawk | .g Human synthesis docosahexaenoic acid | 18:09 |
| yoleaux | http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8656081 | 18:09 |
| jrayhawk | well, i guess that makes sense | 18:10 |
| jrayhawk | we do actually have pretty robust delongase and desaturase pathways | 18:10 |
| jrayhawk | er, saturase | 18:10 |
| xentrac | you mean elongase? | 18:10 |
| jrayhawk | No, that's 24->22 | 18:10 |
| jrayhawk | .g human delongase desaturase docosahexaenoic acid | 18:11 |
| yoleaux | No results found. | 18:11 |
| jrayhawk | i hate you, yoleaux | 18:11 |
| jrayhawk | er, shit | 18:11 |
| jrayhawk | .g human elongase desaturase docosahexaenoic acid | 18:11 |
| yoleaux | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatty_acid_desaturase | 18:11 |
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| jrayhawk | god, fine, I'll go actually use a real search engine | 18:12 |
| xentrac | haha | 18:12 |
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| jrayhawk | http://www.jlr.org/content/42/8/1257.full.pdf | 18:18 |
| jrayhawk | http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/77/3/565.full.pdf | 18:19 |
| kanzure | ld48 theme is "beneath the surface" | 18:19 |
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| jrayhawk | the pawlosky paper is cool because it's doing deuterium labeling | 18:20 |
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| jrayhawk | the end number was a conversion rate of 0.0000000013 | 18:21 |
| jrayhawk | http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=ala+dha+supplementation you see concordant results from supplementation studies | 18:22 |
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| jrayhawk | you may want to give http://members.shaw.ca/jeanaltemeyer/drbob/TheAuthoritarians.pdf a read (just try to ignore the terrible political narrative) to understand how consensus gets built | 18:23 |
| jrayhawk | and similarly think about the implications of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_of_care | 18:24 |
| jrayhawk | and eight years of senseless psychological violence (residency) as a hazing ritual | 18:25 |
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| ebowden | http://wyss.harvard.edu/viewpressrelease/150/cloaked-dna-nanodevices-survive-pilot-mission | 18:38 |
| kanzure | i highly encourage you to not read press releases | 18:38 |
| ebowden | They embellish things? | 18:50 |
| kanzure | they often don't contain any actionable information | 18:50 |
| ebowden | Do they contain information that will allow you to find actionable information? | 18:51 |
| kanzure | often no, it's usually dead ends that would require millions of dollars of licensing fees that, frankly, i don't want to spend | 18:55 |
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| cpopell | ebowden: actionable meaning can you find the source paper? yes. actionable meaning can you do anything from finding the source paper? no | 18:55 |
| ebowden | Ah, right. | 18:55 |
| ebowden | So, the source paper won't be of much use? | 18:56 |
| ebowden | (Well, to you.) | 18:56 |
| cpopell | it probably won't help you reproduce it, which is Kanzure's goal | 18:56 |
| cpopell | http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/nn5011914 e.g. this is the actual paper | 18:57 |
| cpopell | (as far as I can tell) | 18:58 |
| ebowden | So, kanzure wouldn't be able to reproduce the particles? | 18:58 |
| ebowden | Thanks. | 18:58 |
| cpopell | I have an interest in general tracking what's happening, which has caused Kanzure no end of irritation because he doesn't want more Kurzweil-esque useless demagogues | 18:59 |
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| cpopell | brb. | 18:59 |
| ebowden | Kurzweil-esque? | 19:00 |
| ebowden | Oh, ok. | 19:00 |
| ebowden | paperbot: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/nn5011914 | 19:03 |
| kanzure | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7648237 "I wonder, if this is the way a majority of big businesses do things, how come we don't see more leaks of entire codebases? It'd be trivial to put something up on TPB and just share all the code, but I don't see things like that happening. I also doubt that every single employee with access to the code has the moral standards not to do this. There must be something else keeping them from doing it." | 19:03 |
| kanzure | 18:58 < ebowden> So, kanzure wouldn't be able to reproduce the particles? | 19:03 |
| kanzure | sigh | 19:03 |
| paperbot | XMLSyntaxError: None (file "/home/bryan/code/paperbot/phenny/modules/scihub.py", line 51, in _go) | 19:03 |
| kanzure | nobody said that | 19:03 |
| kanzure | oh, i guess cpopell did, but he didn't say it directly | 19:04 |
| gradstudentbot | Who the hell stole my pipette? | 19:04 |
| kanzure | journalists always get everything wrong in every single field of study | 19:04 |
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| kanzure | news is probably the worst source of information you can pick | 19:04 |
| kanzure | and it's not even the "good" type of worst | 19:04 |
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| ebowden | Kanzure, do you have any reason to re-produce those particles at the moment? | 19:11 |
| kanzure | why are you asking? | 19:11 |
| kanzure | i don't understand | 19:11 |
| ebowden | "Virus-Inspired Membrane Encapsulation of DNA Nanostructures To Achieve In Vivo Stability" | 19:12 |
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| gradstudentbot | Is there free food at that seminar? | 19:14 |
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| kanzure | torrents deploying code at facebook https://www.facebook.com/publications/514128035341603/ | 20:34 |
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| fenn | can someone load this url in their browser and tell me about how long it takes until you see the text of the message? https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/d3-js/z6yNV6sz58M/XOX-KuTBcC8J | 21:22 |
| kanzure | 13 seconds | 21:23 |
| fenn | okay good | 21:23 |
| fenn | am i correct in thinking that 13 seconds is too long? | 21:24 |
| kanzure | yep | 21:24 |
| kanzure | they've been screwing up google groups for years, it's not very surprising | 21:25 |
| fenn | if you click on this thing, does it animate? http://bl.ocks.org/mbostock/4063423 | 21:25 |
| kanzure | no | 21:25 |
| fenn | huh. i guess it broke in the last few days | 21:25 |
| kanzure | if you click "size" or "count" then it animates. | 21:26 |
| fenn | right | 21:26 |
| fenn | you used to be able to zoom in on each pie wedge | 21:26 |
| fenn | damn, i thought i had fixed chrome's memory hogging but then it crashed | 21:28 |
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| kanzure | fenn: do you have a collection of 3d models of dinosaurs by any chance | 21:35 |
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| fenn | wow this sunburst demo looks completely different on an ipad | 21:38 |
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| fenn | oh nm it's a different gist | 21:39 |
| fenn | sigh there goes chrome again | 21:40 |
| fenn | this is the zooming/animating sunburst chart http://bl.ocks.org/mbostock/4348373 | 21:50 |
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| jrayhawk | fenn: the text is pretty much instant for me | 21:59 |
| kanzure | are you rendering without js? | 22:00 |
| jrayhawk | yes | 22:00 |
| jrayhawk | i am a little impressed google knows to interpret the anchor | 22:00 |
| jrayhawk | i didn't even know that got sent | 22:00 |
| kanzure | anchor changed a long time ago to correspond to <div> element ids | 22:00 |
| jrayhawk | er, yeah | 22:01 |
| jrayhawk | that | 22:01 |
| kanzure | so what is going to happen to all the usenet data | 22:01 |
| jrayhawk | what's that called if not anchor, now? | 22:01 |
| kanzure | hashcrap | 22:01 |
| kanzure | "the twitter thing" :( | 22:01 |
| jrayhawk | octothorpe | 22:02 |
| fenn | you can link to any div? | 22:02 |
| fenn | i mean, is that html or just some GWT thing | 22:02 |
| kanzure | try it | 22:03 |
| kanzure | not gwt | 22:03 |
| jrayhawk | "fragment identifier" | 22:03 |
| kanzure | user agent implementation thing | 22:03 |
| jrayhawk | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fragment_identifier | 22:03 |
| kanzure | congrats jrayhawk you've now learned a web thing | 22:03 |
| kanzure | do you feel good? because you shouldn't. | 22:03 |
| jrayhawk | "its processing is exclusively client-side with no participation from the web server" | 22:03 |
| jrayhawk | I learned google is doing the impossible | 22:04 |
| fenn | can you link to any id? | 22:04 |
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| jrayhawk | eh, i am not too resentful to learn URI things | 22:04 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/wiki/diybio/groups#atlanta | 22:05 |
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| fenn | how big is the usenet archive? | 22:07 |
| kanzure | small enough for henry spencer to have tape backups of its entirety | 22:08 |
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| jrayhawk | okay, apparently #! is special...? | 22:09 |
| kanzure | usually that's some stupid client-side js single-page-app scam | 22:09 |
| kanzure | where the fragment is used to inform the javascript on the page which actual content to request from the server | 22:10 |
| jrayhawk | https://developers.google.com/webmasters/ajax-crawling/ | 22:10 |
| fenn | https://archive.org/details/usenet | 22:10 |
| kanzure | angularjs and backbone do this out of the box iirc for their routing | 22:10 |
| jrayhawk | https://developers.google.com/webmasters/ajax-crawling/docs/specification | 22:10 |
| kanzure | "This historical collection of Usenet spans more than 30 years and was given to us by a generous donor" probably henry spencer | 22:11 |
| jrayhawk | so apparently it is a google-specific extension to RFC3986 specifically to work around the fact that AJAX is horrible | 22:11 |
| jrayhawk | i guess i am down with my browser supporting that | 22:11 |
| kanzure | it's also so that they don't have to write custom scraper code for each single-page javascript app | 22:12 |
| jrayhawk | Yeah. | 22:12 |
| fenn | "hash fragments have the advantage that in and of themselves, they do not incur an HTTP request and thus no round-trip from the browser to the server and back." makes sense | 22:12 |
| jrayhawk | I consider that a subset of AJAX being horrible. | 22:12 |
| fenn | i wish they wouldn't call it a "hash fragment" though | 22:12 |
| fenn | why can't the crawler just do all this JS stuff on its own | 22:14 |
| jrayhawk | this feels more like I've learned an anti-web thing. an outside specification undoing damage incurred by the w3. | 22:14 |
| kanzure | fenn: halting problem stuff, resource utilization stuff | 22:15 |
| fenn | are you saying AJAX is a w3 thing? | 22:15 |
| jrayhawk | Dynamic pages are a w3 thing. | 22:16 |
| gradstudentbot | Can I defend with just one aim done? | 22:17 |
| jrayhawk | fenn: aside from resource problems, many crawlers aren't that smart and crawling resource trees in highly dynamic environments much more likely to be infinite in scope | 22:18 |
| jrayhawk | s/much/is/ | 22:18 |
| jrayhawk | er, is much | 22:18 |
| fenn | i'm not sure how rfc3986 solves that | 22:18 |
| fenn | er, not rfc.. whatever the google ajax-crawling thing is called | 22:19 |
| jrayhawk | graceful (specifically, controlled) degradation | 22:20 |
| gradstudentbot | I'll be at the microscope. | 22:20 |
| fenn | this is a transformation of the ajax scheme but it still has an infinite number of possible urls | 22:21 |
| jrayhawk | yeah, with cgi that's always possible | 22:21 |
| fenn | so the crawler still has to decide which urls to load | 22:21 |
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| fenn | i am still reading what the difference between an URI a URL and a URN is | 22:22 |
| kanzure | deciding which urls to load wasn't the problem this was trying to solve | 22:22 |
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| * fenn reverts to web 1.0 | 22:26 | |
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| kanzure | wasn't there a debtorrent thing? what was it called | 22:33 |
| gradstudentbot | Hey, let's write a paper about that. | 22:33 |
| fenn | debtorrent | 22:34 |
| fenn | is there a "legal upright citizen's torrent tracker search engine" like the pirate bay, but for stuff like usenet archives or wikipedia dumps? | 22:35 |
| fenn | i guess it's archive.org | 22:38 |
| fenn | there's no comments or useful descriptions of anything though | 22:38 |
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| fenn | i wonder why kiwix is still not in ubuntu | 22:51 |
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| xmj | whats that? | 23:38 |
| --- Log closed Sat Apr 26 00:00:51 2014 | ||
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