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| eudoxia | paperbot: http://dl.acm.org/ft_gateway.cfm?id=512563&type=pdf&CFID=360860417&CFTOKEN=62717114 | 08:36 |
|---|---|---|
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/52401e0920b0808eb19a147341ffaf97.pdf | 08:36 |
| eudoxia | thanks, 'bot | 08:37 |
| kanzure | dbolser: you should store a copy of library genesis | 08:46 |
| kanzure | eudoxia: tooltip stiffness requirements? gene_hacker would like to know | 08:47 |
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| eudoxia | kanzure: no idea lol | 08:51 |
| kanzure | bah | 08:52 |
| kanzure | what good is an obsession with diamondoid mechanosynthesis if you don't know the parameters off the top of your head | 08:53 |
| kanzure | or, uh, something | 08:53 |
| eudoxia | the minimal toolset paper, page 764 might be what you want (20 Newtons per meter) | 08:58 |
| kanzure | didn't i say that yesterday | 09:00 |
| kanzure | haha yes | 09:00 |
| eudoxia | ahahahhahaha | 09:01 |
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| eudoxia | > If ks is 10 N/m, the positional uncertainty s at room temperature is ~0.02 nm (nanometers). This is accurate enough to permit alignment of molecular parts to within a fraction of an atomic diameter. | 09:03 |
| eudoxia | http://www.zyvex.com/nanotech/mbb/other.html | 09:03 |
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| kanzure | zen of assembly language https://github.com/jagregory/abrash-zen-of-asm | 09:14 |
| kanzure | web view, http://www.jagregory.com/abrash-zen-of-asm/ | 09:14 |
| kanzure | "These next few posts are a technical write-up of how I created 8088 Domination, which is a program that displays fairly decent full-motion video on a 1981 IBM PC." http://trixter.oldskool.org/2014/06/19/8088-domination-post-mortem-part-1/ | 09:20 |
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| kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ll_-_ngu4Gg&t=7m | 09:33 |
| yoleaux | BBC Horizon 1978 Now The Chips Are Down | 09:33 |
| kanzure | has some old school pics of semiconductor manufacturing stuff | 09:33 |
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| archels | http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/184640-spacex-says-it-will-put-humans-on-mars-by-2026-almost-10-years-ahead-of-nasa | 09:46 |
| eudoxia | i want to believe | 09:47 |
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| nmz787_i | ParahSailin: ran strace through cygwin, didn't seem too helpful | 10:00 |
| nmz787_i | ParahSailin: http://pastebin.com/J6VN2yDj | 10:01 |
| ParahSailin | that is weird, what was your strace command? | 10:01 |
| nmz787_i | strace PortablePythonDir\App\pythonw.exe GUIPath\GuiDir\Gui.py | 10:02 |
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| ParahSailin | what happens with regular python.exe | 10:03 |
| nmz787_i | i didn't try, but it was still crashing without the strace involved | 10:03 |
| nmz787_i | (i didn't try with strace) | 10:04 |
| ParahSailin | your gui.py is forking lots of different pids? | 10:04 |
| kanzure | strace -f | 10:04 |
| nmz787_i | it's called subprocess.Popen on at least one process that was still running just before I called the subprocess.Popen that causes the crash | 10:05 |
| nmz787_i | the subprocess call that crashes should kill a subprocess I previously opened | 10:05 |
| nmz787_i | but I didn't read anything about a subprocess thread dying and causing a crash | 10:05 |
| nmz787_i | subprocess says it should be fine whether the child exits normally or not | 10:06 |
| nmz787_i | (i don't know how the 'kill other child' program works.. as they're provided by this hardware company) | 10:06 |
| ParahSailin | oh, use cygwin python | 10:07 |
| nmz787_i | I wonder if it has something to do with COM objects, as after the first subprocess is open, there are some COM objects opened up to interact with it... but again, I don't know if killing the COM-provider would cause python/my GUI to crash | 10:08 |
| nmz787_i | hmm | 10:08 |
| nmz787_i | that will likely break things, as I'm basing some paths off the interpreter location | 10:08 |
| ParahSailin | .py import sys; from os import path; print path.basename(sys.executable) | 10:10 |
| nmz787_i | i've been using sys.prefix | 10:10 |
| kanzure | nmz787_i: it's an extremely bad idea to use absolute paths like that | 10:10 |
| nmz787_i | kanzure: they're all relative | 10:10 |
| nmz787_i | to sys.prefix | 10:10 |
| nmz787_i | :) | 10:10 |
| kanzure | that's not smileworthy | 10:10 |
| kanzure | (you should feel shame) | 10:10 |
| nmz787_i | otherwise I'd have to depend on paths being set by some env variable | 10:11 |
| nmz787_i | some %REPOROOT% or something | 10:11 |
| kanzure | the interpreter location really shouldn't matter | 10:11 |
| nmz787_i | except that I use its location as a relative starting point | 10:12 |
| kanzure | i suggest using win32com or comtypes for com object manipulation | 10:12 |
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| nmz787_i | yeah | 10:12 |
| nmz787_i | that's what we're using | 10:12 |
| kanzure | i prefer comtypes | 10:12 |
| kanzure | i agree with ParahSailin re: cygwin python | 10:12 |
| nmz787_i | i don't think i installed it when cygwin installed | 10:13 |
| ParahSailin | you can run the setup.exe and add packages | 10:13 |
| kanzure | setup.exe is poorly named, it's more like "our crappy tool that we expect you to run every once in a while after installing" | 10:14 |
| kanzure | apt-cyg broke last year when they changed their repository format | 10:14 |
| kanzure | so setup.exe is the only remaining option (other than fixing apt-cyg..) | 10:14 |
| ParahSailin | setup.exe can be run headless if you really want | 10:15 |
| kanzure | yes | 10:15 |
| nmz787_i | might try getting cygwin python to work... but don't really have the time today | 10:15 |
| nmz787_i | ttyl | 10:16 |
| * kanzure shakes his head | 10:16 | |
| ParahSailin | there is no try | 10:16 |
| ParahSailin | you just click a box | 10:16 |
| ParahSailin | do python-setuptools in setup.exe, having ezinstall.py already there saves you a step | 10:17 |
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| nmz787_i | nah i mean i'd need to change all my path stuff, which should be like 5 lines or less | 10:33 |
| kanzure | ParahSailin: my theory is that your messages are being filtered out from reality for certain users | 10:35 |
| kanzure | ParahSailin: or everyone has you on /ignore | 10:35 |
| nmz787_i | hmm | 10:35 |
| ParahSailin | i think its because i make one dry ironic joke, everyone thinks im not being serious | 10:36 |
| gradstudentbot | We simply don't do enough titrations in my lab. | 10:36 |
| nmz787_i | so one place i'm using sys.prefix is because that's where some portable python DLLs were | 10:36 |
| nmz787_i | the microsoft ones | 10:37 |
| nmz787_i | and i think the one for win32api | 10:37 |
| nmz787_i | or win32com | 10:37 |
| nmz787_i | are those usually in sys.prefix (next to python binary)? | 10:37 |
| kanzure | import sys; from os import path; print path.basename(sys.executable) | 10:37 |
| nmz787_i | what is the use of that? | 10:38 |
| nmz787_i | I don't care that i'm running python.exe vs pythonw.exe or something | 10:38 |
| kanzure | sys.path can be updated with path.basename(sys.executable) | 10:38 |
| ParahSailin | whup i meant path.dirname | 10:38 |
| nmz787_i | so | 10:38 |
| nmz787_i | the reason i'm using it is because (in portable python at least) that's where some required DLLs were | 10:39 |
| nmz787_i | for imports to work right | 10:39 |
| ParahSailin | libpython.dll? | 10:39 |
| nmz787_i | the msvc ones | 10:39 |
| nmz787_i | i guess I can just copy them to the cygwin/bin dir for now | 10:40 |
| ParahSailin | you put those in the python library path? | 10:40 |
| nmz787_i | sys.path | 10:40 |
| nmz787_i | or this rather os.environ['PATH'] = ";".join([os.environ['PATH'],sys.prefix]) | 10:40 |
| ParahSailin | cygwin uses the same $PATH | 10:41 |
| nmz787_i | then I was doing ThirdPartyLibDir = os.path.realpath(os.path.abspath(os.path.join(sys.prefix, '..','..','lib'))) | 10:41 |
| nmz787_i | if not ThirdPartyLibDir in sys.path: | 10:41 |
| nmz787_i | sys.path.insert(0, ThirdPartyLibDir) | 10:41 |
| kanzure | camelcase in python :( | 10:42 |
| nmz787_i | its a company-wide standard | 10:42 |
| nmz787_i | or so i'm told | 10:42 |
| kanzure | your company sucks | 10:43 |
| nmz787_i | meh | 10:43 |
| nmz787_i | good to have at least some standard | 10:43 |
| nmz787_i | so people can figure out how to read each other's code | 10:44 |
| nmz787_i | lots of langs used here | 10:44 |
| ParahSailin | some languages dont let you name values starting with an upper case character | 10:44 |
| ParahSailin | are those outlawed? | 10:45 |
| kanzure | gonna be a hanging | 10:48 |
| kanzure | TeMPOraL: hello | 10:49 |
| ParahSailin | http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2014/06/words-that-men-are-most-likely-to-recognize-over-women.html | 10:51 |
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| kanzure | "progesterone" is a weird one to be on that list | 10:52 |
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| eudoxia | wow the list of women-first words makes me feel illiterate | 11:11 |
| eudoxia | i only vaguely knew a bodice was something about clothes | 11:12 |
| ParahSailin | who does this ";".join([os.environ['PATH'],sys.prefix]) | 11:12 |
| ParahSailin | just noticed that | 11:12 |
| ParahSailin | use the monoid instance of str | 11:12 |
| kanzure | i sometimes do that when i am too lazy to type str(";").join() | 11:17 |
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| dingo | venv_bin_path = os.path.dirname(sys.executable) | 11:46 |
| dingo | paths_split = os.getenv('PATH', '').split(os.pathsep) | 11:46 |
| dingo | if venv_bin_path not in paths_split: | 11:46 |
| dingo | os.environ['PATH'] = os.pathsep.join(paths_split + [venv_bin_path]) | 11:46 |
| dingo | thats what i do, aparently | 11:46 |
| kanzure | trsohmers: hi | 11:50 |
| trsohmers | Hi there | 11:50 |
| trsohmers | So what has the progress been with homecmos related efforts? | 11:51 |
| kanzure | azonenberg summarized some of his work here, | 11:51 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/optics/photolithography/DIY%20fabrication%20of%20microstructures%20by%20projection%20photolithography.pdf | 11:51 |
| kanzure | here's a laser cutter design: http://diyhpl.us/laser_etcher/laser_etcher | 11:51 |
| trsohmers | Would that be the most up to date? | 11:51 |
| kanzure | it's a good summary, i suppose | 11:52 |
| kanzure | at the moment no amateur group have done planar transistors, i think | 11:52 |
| kanzure | transistors are not a top priority for me (i'm eyeing microfluidics, which requires only the photolithography step, and not any of the copper etching steps etc) | 11:53 |
| trsohmers | I've been having crazy ideas regarding micro and (in the future) nanofabrication for under a million dollars for a while now... until I saw your post on HN, I thought the HomeCMOS project that I looked at a while back was dead | 11:54 |
| kanzure | it is "dead" in the sense that azonenberg has an unrelated job and isn't spending time on it much, but he's technically still alive | 11:54 |
| trsohmers | For what you are interested in, what feature sizes are you working at? | 11:55 |
| kanzure | microfabrication can be done using conventional photography equipment (35 mm film negatives) for way less than a million bucks: | 11:55 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/optics/photolithography/Simple%20photolithographic%20rapid%20prototyping%20of%20microfluidic%20chips.pdf | 11:55 |
| kanzure | my tolerances are lolworthy, i'd be happy with 1-50 micron feature sizes i think | 11:55 |
| trsohmers | I'm more interested in transistors myself | 11:55 |
| kanzure | have you blown through the thiel money yet? | 11:56 |
| trsohmers | I see you looked me up ;) | 11:56 |
| kanzure | i know your name | 11:56 |
| trsohmers | Not sure if I should be flattered or what | 11:57 |
| kanzure | nope, i just stalk lots and lots of people | 11:57 |
| kanzure | and a bunch of thiel fellowship people float through here | 11:57 |
| * heath visited octopart, neat little office | 11:57 | |
| heath | small team | 11:57 |
| trsohmers | Interesting, which people | 11:57 |
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| heath | they didn't have an electronics hacking area as i expected | 11:58 |
| chris_99 | alas :( | 11:58 |
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| trsohmers | I guess this seems to be a more general transhumanism and biohacking, and not EE, so I guess I'm not super suprised | 11:58 |
| kanzure | "general" transhumanism.. haha | 11:58 |
| kanzure | microfabrication is too mainstream transhumanist, i guess | 11:59 |
| trsohmers | :P | 11:59 |
| heath | :) | 11:59 |
| kanzure | sort of feel like the goal posts are moving on me, though | 11:59 |
| trsohmers | Do you know Kettner Griswold or Paul Sebexen? | 12:00 |
| kanzure | david dalrymple introduced me to paul once | 12:00 |
| gradstudentbot | Is this going to count as my ethics training? | 12:00 |
| kanzure | and jonathan cline introduced me to kettner | 12:00 |
| trsohmers | Small world, haha | 12:00 |
| kanzure | or i just stalk more than you think | 12:00 |
| trsohmers | Either way, you seem to follow the right people, or I am just giving myself too much credit | 12:01 |
| kanzure | gradstudentbot: yeah | 12:01 |
| gradstudentbot | Hey, that could be your research project. | 12:01 |
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| kanzure | wb TeMPOraL | 12:02 |
| kanzure | trsohmers: have they made any progress | 12:03 |
| trsohmers | Well, as a high school dropout and self taught when it comes to most technical fields, I've had some moderately interesting but probably stupid/crazy ideas | 12:03 |
| trsohmers | Kettner and Paul? They are working at Lawrence Berkeley National Labs, and not sleeping at all :P | 12:03 |
| trsohmers | Don't really know specifics on progress | 12:03 |
| kanzure | high school is for chimps anyway | 12:03 |
| trsohmers | But from what i've heard from them (Paul mostly) it sounds like they are making progress | 12:04 |
| kanzure | so what are your probably stupid ideas? | 12:04 |
| trsohmers | Photolithography and metal deposition, but I'm going to read through Andrew's stuff as it probably will better inform my thought process | 12:05 |
| gradstudentbot | That's definitely a Cell paper. | 12:06 |
| trsohmers | Either using a microdisplay (High resolution TFT/LCD microdisplay... potentially LCOS) as a reconfigurable mask solution | 12:07 |
| trsohmers | Without fancy optics, I think it would be possible to get around a micron, with fancy optics maybe 500nm | 12:07 |
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| trsohmers | I've also been reading about "Light Grating Valve" technology, which I think may have some promise, but I'm not sure if it would be any better than DLP | 12:09 |
| kanzure | micromirror arrays and liquid crystal displays are commonly available and worth sticking with | 12:09 |
| kanzure | here are some methods you may be interested in: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/optics/photolithography/ | 12:10 |
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| trsohmers | In another life I worked on head mounted displays, and have a lot of microdisplays lying around | 12:10 |
| kanzure | i still like this thing http://www.loper-os.org/vintage/paralleleye/eye.html | 12:11 |
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| trsohmers | I've read about ZPAL and a lot of the MIT stuff before... I may be misreading things, but did the zone plated lens stop being called that, and is now commonly just referred to as a "superlens" in more recent works? | 12:12 |
| trsohmers | wait wait | 12:12 |
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| trsohmers | If you're interested in HMDs, then this entire video is interesting, but if not, skip ahead to the ~8 minute mark | 12:14 |
| trsohmers | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hLzESOf8SE&feature=youtu.be | 12:14 |
| kanzure | .title | 12:14 |
| yoleaux | Douglas Lanman (NVidia) - Light Field Displays at AWE2014 | 12:14 |
| kanzure | you can use &t=8m to skip to 8 minutes | 12:14 |
| trsohmers | I know, I just copied and paste it from a previous chat I had. Too lazy to add 6 characters | 12:15 |
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| kanzure | there was someone that was just pointing a projector at SU-8 or something, | 12:17 |
| kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1VupG7pOcQ&t=48s | 12:17 |
| yoleaux | LightBuilders | 12:17 |
| nmz787_i | ParahSailin: cygwin doesn't seem to respect .pth files? | 12:19 |
| trsohmers | So my thought with Douglas Lanman's "arbitrary high resolution display" is if you could make a relatively cheap display with an absurdly high pixel density, and have it be able to block UV light | 12:21 |
| kanzure | i think you mean reflect UV | 12:22 |
| ParahSailin | i dunno what .pth file is | 12:22 |
| kanzure | s/reflect/pass | 12:22 |
| kanzure | transmit | 12:22 |
| kanzure | there's a good word | 12:22 |
| trsohmers | Yes | 12:22 |
| trsohmers | Meaning not allowing the UV to expose photoresist below the display | 12:25 |
| nmz787_i | don't forget about inter-pixel dead space, so you'll want more than a few pixels for whatever your minimum feature size is targeted to be | 12:27 |
| trsohmers | I can't seem to find much information on how he is making that "display", but I'm wondering what the limit would be | 12:30 |
| nmz787_i | ParahSailin: .pth files in the site-packages folder usually are looked into and the dirs listed in the text are added to the module search tree/list | 12:31 |
| trsohmers | or if there is a size limit for TFTs... if you just make a single ridiculously high pixel density TFT, then you could use that as a reconfigurable mask | 12:31 |
| kanzure | the projector is the reconfigurable mask | 12:31 |
| ParahSailin | im not sure whether the python in cygwin uses .pth files | 12:32 |
| ParahSailin | if they are present, it probably does though | 12:32 |
| kanzure | .pth is part of python's weirdo broken package management stuff | 12:32 |
| nmz787_i | ParahSailin: actually I realized I put the modules in a dir one level up from site-packages | 12:32 |
| trsohmers | What I'm saying is have a light reflector/blocker for each "pixel" of whatever you are exposing | 12:32 |
| nmz787_i | trsohmers: but you have inter-pixel dead space | 12:33 |
| nmz787_i | trsohmers: also diffraction | 12:33 |
| kanzure | that lcd paper showed a method of working around the dead space | 12:33 |
| trsohmers | So you wouldn't be able to have feature sizes less than the wavelength of the light (correct?) | 12:34 |
| nmz787_i | you might get interested in digital hologram/interference mask generation | 12:34 |
| nmz787_i | trsohmers: yes but diffraction can also smear edges and stuff | 12:34 |
| trsohmers | Couldn't you do something similar to superresolution techniques on displays? | 12:34 |
| nmz787_i | so if you had a 1 micron pixel, the edges might get smeared and it ends up a bit wider, say 1.5 microns | 12:34 |
| trsohmers | have multiple short exposures | 12:34 |
| ThomasEgi | what's this about? lithography? | 12:35 |
| nmz787_i | diffraction is like a lottery that all photons go through | 12:35 |
| nmz787_i | so i think multiple short bursts would be the same as one long one | 12:35 |
| trsohmers | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superresolution | 12:36 |
| kanzure | .wik superresolution | 12:36 |
| yoleaux | "Superresolution (SR) is a class of techniques that enhance the resolution of an imaging system. In some SR techniques—termed optical SR—the diffraction limit of systems is transcended, while in others—geometrical SR—the resolution of digital imaging sensors is enhanced." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superresolution | 12:36 |
| trsohmers | I was thinking you could either move the target or the "mask" slightly | 12:36 |
| kanzure | yep | 12:37 |
| kanzure | here's someone who did that, | 12:37 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/optics/photolithography/Development%20of%20microfabrication%20technology%20with%20maskless%20photolithography%20device%20using%20LCD%20projector%20-%20Itoga%20-%202010.pdf | 12:37 |
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| trsohmers | But even if some of the resist you don't want exposed is exposed, hopefully it wasn't exposed long enough/with enough intensity | 12:38 |
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| trsohmers | oh cool | 12:38 |
| trsohmers | OK, so that is 1428 PPI | 12:40 |
| nmz787_i | trsohmers: that's exactly why i said to have more pixels per feature size | 12:42 |
| nmz787_i | so you can move the mask but in software | 12:42 |
| trsohmers | supposedly the highest resolution one (at least marketed) is .61 inches, 2560x2048 | 12:42 |
| trsohmers | so 5374 PPI | 12:43 |
| @kanzure | paperbot: http://www.nature.com/nmeth/journal/v11/n5/full/nmeth.2918.html | 12:43 |
| @kanzure | .title | 12:43 |
| yoleaux | Large-scale de novo DNA synthesis: technologies and applications | 12:43 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2Fnmeth.2918 | 12:43 |
| @kanzure | http://www.gen9bio.com/blog/gen9-featured-in-nature-methods-review/ | 12:43 |
| @kanzure | haha $0.10/bp... the world is so fucked up. that's still very expensive. | 12:44 |
| nmz787_i | large-scale is not a good keyword | 12:46 |
| @kanzure | yeah we're going to have to name our technique eventually | 12:47 |
| @kanzure | hypersynthesis | 12:47 |
| trsohmers | nmz787_i: Did you look at the multi exposure section of the paper kanzure sent at 12:38? | 12:47 |
| nmz787_i | no | 12:48 |
| jrayhawk_ | https://www.modularscience.com/doc an interesting start | 12:49 |
| nmz787_i | hah, that paper used resist from the company up the street | 12:51 |
| nmz787_i | it doesn't really mention how they moved the image, if it was by overrepresenting pixels/CD (critical dimension, aka smallest feature desired) or if it was this fancy 50nm stage http://www.spectracore.com/KY1250CL.html | 12:55 |
| nmz787_i | p.s. kanzure tool request on that one! | 12:55 |
| nmz787_i | "PLEASE CALL OR E-MAIL FOR PRICE " means i don't get it tho | 12:56 |
| @kanzure | .title | 12:56 |
| yoleaux | KY1250C-L Motorized Crossed Roller XY Axis 120x120mm Platform 50mm Travel Stage | 12:56 |
| @kanzure | i thought we were just going to build one | 12:57 |
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| ||0_-_0|| | paperbot http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0168365914003393?np=y | 13:30 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/State-of-the-art%20in%20design%20rules%20for%20drug%20delivery%20platforms%3A%20Lessons%20learned%20from%20FDA-approved%20nanomedicines.pdf | 13:30 |
| @kanzure | http://multigrad.blogspot.com/2014/06/fun-with-python-bytecode.html | 13:41 |
| gradstudentbot | I think I have ebola. | 13:42 |
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| nmz787_i | jrayhawk_: any adventure shooting ranges around? like scenario based? I found this VR one http://threatdynamics.com/simulator-shooting/ | 14:55 |
| @kanzure | that is a good site name | 15:00 |
| @kanzure | i think most people just do paintballing instead of shooting at screens | 15:00 |
| chris_99 | or airsoft too | 15:02 |
| jrayhawk_ | Huh, I don't know anything about the subject. | 15:07 |
| @kanzure | no combat training? whaaat | 15:08 |
| @kanzure | you'd be an okay sniper | 15:08 |
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| jrayhawk_ | nmz787_i: http://www.razorsixtactical.com/ their website has sold me | 15:32 |
| @kanzure | .title | 15:32 |
| yoleaux | RazorSix Tactical | 15:32 |
| @kanzure | jerks | 15:32 |
| jrayhawk_ | Don't tread on me, bro. | 15:33 |
| @kanzure | https://www.google.com/maps/place/30%C2%B037'35.5%22N+122%C2%B003'53.9%22E/@30.6189461,122.0619333,6371m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x0 | 15:35 |
| nmz787_i | look's like my team might go to the VR one for a team-building exercise | 15:37 |
| @kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yangshan_Port | 15:39 |
| @kanzure | hm, only 44% owned by government | 15:40 |
| @kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_International_Port_(Group) | 15:41 |
| @kanzure | http://www.portshanghai.com.cn/en/ | 15:42 |
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| @kanzure | any guesses as to what's going on here? https://www.google.com/maps/@25.0306852,55.0674356,467m/data=!3m1!1e3 | 15:56 |
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| jrayhawk_ | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LNG_carrier | 16:02 |
| jrayhawk_ | probably just a static structure around it for stabilizing purposes | 16:02 |
| jrayhawk_ | refueling while moving is fraught with danger | 16:02 |
| @kanzure | "The Methane Pioneer" "Methane Princess" "Methane Progress" | 16:05 |
| @kanzure | "methane princess" is such a troll name | 16:05 |
| @kanzure | "n the early 1970s, the US Government encouraged US shipyards to build LNG carriers, and a total of 16 LNG ships were built." | 16:06 |
| @kanzure | yes.. encouraged. | 16:06 |
| jrayhawk_ | http://www.google.com/search?q=engineering+connections+supertanker&tbm=vid | 16:10 |
| trsohmers | Anyone here knowledgable or at least interested in metal deposition techniques? | 16:11 |
| jrayhawk_ | Richard Hammond is like the only real science show host we've had since Bill Nye | 16:11 |
| trsohmers | kanzure: ? | 16:12 |
| @kanzure | there's a few, i am thinking | 16:12 |
| jrayhawk_ | #reprap probably knows more | 16:13 |
| trsohmers | micro and nanoscale | 16:13 |
| @kanzure | juri_ was building a vapor deposition chamber of some kind | 16:13 |
| @kanzure | juri_: are you still among the living | 16:14 |
| @kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzX_wFm4OH4#t=3757 | 16:15 |
| yoleaux | Falcon 9 Satellite Launch | 16:15 |
| juri_ | indeed. | 16:16 |
| juri_ | my hands have somewhat recovered, as well. | 16:16 |
| juri_ | too bad my soldering station just died. :( | 16:17 |
| trsohmers | hi juri_ | 16:17 |
| trsohmers | what is your interest in vapor deposition? | 16:17 |
| juri_ | hio! i'm trying to deposit carbon in the form of DLC to coat 3d printer hotends. | 16:18 |
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| juri_ | hio! i'm trying to deposit carbon in the form of DLC to coat 3d printer hotends. | 16:21 |
| trsohmers_ | Hey juri_ , sorry my computer froze | 16:21 |
| trsohmers_ | Did you say anything between me asking you that question and me rejoining? | 16:21 |
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| juri_ | ^^ :) | 16:21 |
| jrayhawk_ | http://gnusha.org/logs/2014-06-20.log also | 16:22 |
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| trsohmers_ | The magic of IRC | 16:22 |
| trsohmers_ | So, I apologize if this elementary idea sounds really stupid, but I can't think of any obvious flaws (which probably means I just don't understand the physics) | 16:23 |
| trsohmers_ | But I've had the idea of using the photoelectric effect (shooting a metal with a photon of a certain energy, which then creates an electron hole where the photon in absorbed) in order to selectively deposit metal using the same equipment you would use for photolithography | 16:25 |
| juri_ | i'm trying microwaves. | 16:25 |
| trsohmers_ | ? | 16:25 |
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| trsohmers_ | I guess I should have mentioned that I am wanting to do this for micro/nano fabrication, with the intention of making transistors | 16:26 |
| juri_ | i just need a nice electrical resist, that is a good thermal conductor. | 16:30 |
| kanzure | you could just etch a metal plate with a laser diode | 16:30 |
| kanzure | if you need multiple layers then alignment will get annoying | 16:30 |
| trsohmers_ | juri_: I'm not a materials guy, but I know one of the people that was involved in this, and he claims that this is the best electrical insulator/thermal conductor | 16:33 |
| trsohmers_ | http://www.jameskalmankearns.com/uploads/1/1/0/5/11055322/diamond_and_diamond-like_carbon_from_a_preceramic.pdf | 16:33 |
| trsohmers_ | kanzure: Was that in response to me? | 16:33 |
| ParahSailin | the bandgap in metals doesnt work the same way as in semiconductors | 16:36 |
| trsohmers_ | ParahSailin: In terms of how much energy required to have an electron jump? | 16:37 |
| ParahSailin | in metals, every nucleus is a hole | 16:39 |
| trsohmers_ | So to my understanding, every metal has a work function for the photoelectric effect | 16:41 |
| trsohmers_ | a photon has to have a certain minimum energy to be absorbed, and when that happens, an electrons are ejected | 16:43 |
| ParahSailin | yes, the bandgap energy is so low that basically if its room temperature every electron is excited | 16:45 |
| trsohmers_ | for semiconductors... and for other metals, it is significantly higher, and thus requires higher energy for it to occur | 16:46 |
| trsohmers_ | (correct?) | 16:48 |
| ParahSailin | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_band_structure#mediaviewer/File:Band_filling_diagram.svg | 16:49 |
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| trsohmers_ | OK, so I found a simulation online which I think shows the concept well | 16:57 |
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| trsohmers_ | For example, gold's workfunction is 5.1eV, so you would need to be hitting it with photons with a wavelength of 243nm or less | 17:00 |
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| trsohmers_ | Anyways, my idea is this if you were to bombard a negatively charged silicon wafer with any photons with a wavelength of less than 1 micron, then any area hit by those photons would form an electron hole, and it would lose its charge | 17:07 |
| seba-- | trsohmers_ what do you want to make | 17:08 |
| trsohmers_ | You would then sputter a negatively charged metal across the surface of the wafer, and (I think) any area that is not charged would allow the metal to deposit on it, while everything that is not exposed to the light would repel the metal | 17:08 |
| trsohmers_ | seba--: I'm interested in micro/nano fab... primarily for integrated circuits. | 17:09 |
| seba-- | yes | 17:09 |
| seba-- | but what is with this electrons and everything | 17:09 |
| trsohmers_ | The photoelectric effect | 17:09 |
| seba-- | yes i know | 17:10 |
| seba-- | but what do you want to make with it | 17:10 |
| trsohmers_ | Hit a metal with a high enough energy photon, and that metal releases an electron/forms an electron hole | 17:10 |
| seba-- | ok but? | 17:10 |
| trsohmers_ | My end goal is I want to make my own ICs | 17:10 |
| seba-- | yes but i don't see what's with the electron | 17:11 |
| seba-- | what's your point | 17:11 |
| trsohmers_ | To do that, I'm interested in DIY nanofab, and I have not found any good ways for metal deposition | 17:11 |
| seba-- | why don't you make it like they make PCBs, with removing metal? | 17:11 |
| trsohmers_ | Because that would take a lot of time and effort | 17:12 |
| seba-- | why | 17:12 |
| trsohmers_ | You can do that with a focused ion beam | 17:12 |
| trsohmers_ | and do milling | 17:13 |
| seba-- | i don't see how | 17:13 |
| trsohmers_ | ? | 17:13 |
| trsohmers_ | Dont see how for what? | 17:13 |
| seba-- | with photons/photoelectric effect | 17:13 |
| trsohmers_ | The areas of the silicon wafer you do not want to have metal on would be negatively charged, and the metal you are sputtering would be negatively charged | 17:14 |
| seba-- | why do you think charge would be localized? | 17:14 |
| seba-- | lol | 17:14 |
| chris_99 | has anyone here made their own electroporation machine? | 17:20 |
| trsohmers_ | seba--: From what I have read, it seems that the electrons escape at the surface of the material | 17:24 |
| seba-- | trsohmers_, yes | 17:24 |
| seba-- | trsohmers_, that basically makes the material positively charged | 17:24 |
| trsohmers_ | My point is that if you are running an electric charge through the material and giving it a negative charge | 17:25 |
| seba-- | but you are now treating as you have there the lack of charge localized | 17:25 |
| seba-- | chris_99, what's that | 17:25 |
| trsohmers_ | This is what I was thinking of | 17:25 |
| trsohmers_ | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_printer#Charging | 17:25 |
| chris_99 | seba--, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroporation | 17:26 |
| seba-- | trsohmers_, yes but this just charges the whole thing, not tiny pixels | 17:26 |
| seba-- | chris_99, oh thank you, i was searching the name of that device for some time now!! :*** | 17:27 |
| trsohmers_ | And then the laser hits the areas where the toner will be, and that cancels the charge for that pixel | 17:27 |
| chris_99 | seba--, heh :) | 17:27 |
| trsohmers_ | now why wouldn't the same principle apply to a metal? | 17:28 |
| seba-- | trsohmers_, hm, i always thought they work differently (the laser printers), interesting, well i can't see how you can charge a metal at a single point | 17:29 |
| seba-- | trsohmers_, because they are conductive | 17:29 |
| trsohmers_ | if it has a charge going through it | 17:29 |
| trsohmers_ | and you cancel that charge | 17:29 |
| trsohmers_ | it would take some amount of time for an electron to move to the electron hole | 17:30 |
| gradstudentbot | The results of my study indicate that the climate is about to get really weird. | 17:30 |
| trsohmers_ | If you are continuously bombarding the point where you don't want a charge | 17:30 |
| seba-- | trsohmers_, how much time are we talking here? | 17:31 |
| trsohmers_ | I don't know :P | 17:32 |
| trsohmers_ | Damnit Jim, I'm a wannabe electrical engineer, not a physicist/chemist! | 17:32 |
| seba-- | i'm a chem student, but this is more physics domain, so i'm not totally sure | 17:33 |
| trsohmers_ | (that was a Star Trek TOS reference, sorry) :P | 17:33 |
| seba-- | chris_99, that doesn't seem so hard | 17:33 |
| trsohmers_ | kanzure: Do you know anyone who may be able to find a flaw in my theory? | 17:34 |
| gene_hacker | ok so you want to do selective metal deposition using light? | 17:34 |
| trsohmers_ | gene_hacker: Indeed | 17:34 |
| chris_99 | seba--, yeah, i found a schematic a while ago, but don't know where it is anymore, but i'm curious if anyones actually built one | 17:34 |
| gene_hacker | you can do it thermally | 17:34 |
| trsohmers_ | How so? | 17:34 |
| seba-- | chris_99, seems more like adjustable voltage and adjustable pulse duration+frequency? | 17:35 |
| chris_99 | it's high voltage though | 17:35 |
| gene_hacker | you get yourself a laser, and some gas precursor(which is probably pretty nasty) | 17:35 |
| seba-- | chris_99, how much? | 17:36 |
| chris_99 | i thought it was around 2kV iirc | 17:36 |
| gene_hacker | shine laser at a spot, heat causes precursor to decompose, and you get selective deposition | 17:36 |
| seba-- | chris_99, ok that's not such a problem | 17:37 |
| gene_hacker | here's an example of a boron spring made with a process like it: http://www2.teknik.uu.se/mst/projview.php?proj=49 | 17:37 |
| trsohmers_ | similar to ion beam induced deposition | 17:37 |
| trsohmers_ | but with heat | 17:37 |
| gene_hacker | it's called Laser-assisted chemical-vapor deposition | 17:37 |
| trsohmers_ | But it would be just as slow (if not slower?) than FIB deposition | 17:37 |
| gene_hacker | nope, same thing just with light | 17:38 |
| trsohmers_ | What I'm wondering is if it can be done with a mask | 17:38 |
| seba-- | trsohmers_, what if you just make nuclear fusion on surface | 17:38 |
| trsohmers_ | so you are exposing the entire area where you want metal deposited on | 17:38 |
| chris_99 | http://etd.uwaterloo.ca/etd/j2grenie2006.pdf | 17:38 |
| trsohmers_ | seba--: ;) I hope I don't sound that crazy :P | 17:38 |
| chris_99 | "Design of a MOSFET - Based Pulsed Power Supply for Electroporation " | 17:39 |
| gradstudentbot | My experiment was working a second ago, but now it doesn't even work. | 17:39 |
| trsohmers_ | I haven't even tild you guys about my 200 different perfect designs for a cold fusion reactor! /s | 17:39 |
| gene_hacker | you could probably do the same thing with a really intense burst of light | 17:40 |
| trsohmers_ | But what would be the resolution of that? | 17:40 |
| gene_hacker | and it should be slow, CVD has bad kinetics | 17:40 |
| gene_hacker | no clue | 17:40 |
| seba-- | chris_99, you can make it out of a boost converter + voltage doublers | 17:41 |
| seba-- | chris_99, you can make 1 kV with boost converters very easily in discontinous mode and then voltage doubler | 17:41 |
| seba-- | chris_99, assuming you need low current | 17:41 |
| chris_99 | i'm not sure what current it is atm | 17:41 |
| chris_99 | that thesis looks good though | 17:42 |
| chris_99 | so i'll read that | 17:42 |
| seba-- | gene_hacker, make carbon carbon nuclear fusion, you should get magnesium | 17:42 |
| seba-- | a metal! | 17:42 |
| seba-- | so basically just get plastic and then shoot carbon ions at it at super high speed | 17:43 |
| seba-- | colide it | 17:43 |
| seba-- | and at that micropoint | 17:43 |
| seba-- | you should get magnesium | 17:43 |
| gene_hacker | I think we should get hydrogen-hydrogen working first before we attempt that | 17:43 |
| seba-- | uh | 17:43 |
| seba-- | trsohmers_ ^ | 17:43 |
| seba-- | gene_hacker, it's working | 17:43 |
| trsohmers_ | gene_hacker: hmm... at least in my mind, it seems that the resolution limit for the heat deposition technique would be at best the wavelength of the light you use, but would be pretty fuzzy due to uneven solidifying of the metal | 17:43 |
| seba-- | nuclear fusion is achievable | 17:43 |
| seba-- | without problems | 17:43 |
| seba-- | the problem is getting net power | 17:43 |
| trsohmers_ | I know there are fusors | 17:44 |
| seba-- | see | 17:44 |
| trsohmers_ | I know multiple people who have built them | 17:44 |
| seba-- | see | 17:44 |
| seba-- | anyway | 17:44 |
| seba-- | make that | 17:44 |
| seba-- | carbon to magnesium | 17:44 |
| gene_hacker | it is, the energy barriers are just high and it seems to me that it would be crazy to dump that much energy in to do deposition | 17:44 |
| seba-- | be a man | 17:44 |
| gene_hacker | plus all that heat generated can't be good | 17:44 |
| trsohmers_ | exactly | 17:44 |
| seba-- | :( | 17:44 |
| trsohmers_ | so using UV, which you are already using for lithography | 17:44 |
| gene_hacker | yeah, you'd probably vaporize your plastic | 17:45 |
| trsohmers_ | ? | 17:45 |
| gene_hacker | ever put something plastic in an SEM? | 17:45 |
| trsohmers_ | Nope | 17:45 |
| trsohmers_ | But why would there be plastic? | 17:45 |
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| seba-- | i don't get | 17:46 |
| seba-- | what's wrong with photolitography | 17:46 |
| seba-- | lol | 17:47 |
| seba-- | works well | 17:47 |
| seba-- | proven technology | 17:47 |
| trsohmers | Whose saying anything bad about photolithography? | 17:47 |
| seba-- | you | 17:47 |
| trsohmers | I haven't said that | 17:47 |
| seba-- | you said that it's too complicated and messy | 17:47 |
| trsohmers | No, I said that the thermal/ion beam metal deposition would be | 17:48 |
| seba-- | then just do photolitography | 17:48 |
| seba-- | case solved! | 17:48 |
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| trsohmers | this is for metal deposition | 17:49 |
| trsohmers | not lithography | 17:49 |
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| gene_hacker | @trsohmers just responding to seba | 17:49 |
| gene_hacker | why do you want to deposit metal? | 17:49 |
| trsohmers | CMOS process for integrated circuits | 17:49 |
| trsohmers | 10+ layers | 17:49 |
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| seba-- | make it in one layer | 17:50 |
| seba-- | or two | 17:50 |
| seba-- | you don't need 10 layers | 17:50 |
| trsohmers | ...you can't | 17:50 |
| seba-- | why | 17:50 |
| trsohmers | the amount of wires | 17:51 |
| seba-- | sure, but for starters you could do it larger and in 1 layer | 17:52 |
| trsohmers | I suppose, but that limits you in other ways | 17:52 |
| seba-- | like which | 17:53 |
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| trsohmers | On chip communication... if everything is further apart, you have signal integrity and speed issues | 17:53 |
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| kanzure | you don't need "DIY nanofab" to do integrated circuits | 17:54 |
| chris_99 | has anyone fabbed an IC at home before? | 17:54 |
| seba-- | kanzure what then! | 17:54 |
| seba-- | trsohmers, yes but for starters you can try something easier | 17:55 |
| gene_hacker | and if you can deposit metal in arbitrary shapes, well there's much more fun stuff you can do! | 17:55 |
| trsohmers | Doing easy is fine (and the right thing to do) to start off with, but I'm trying to think of a solution for further down the line | 17:55 |
| gene_hacker | IE you could rapid prototype MEMS | 17:56 |
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| trsohmers | I'm a bigger fan of custom processors than MEMs :/ | 17:56 |
| trsohmers | (Although I love MEMS, I'm not smart enough to do cool things with them) | 17:57 |
| kanzure | what do you mean "further down the line".. | 17:57 |
| gene_hacker | if you can get it to work, well you'd make money | 17:57 |
| gene_hacker | especially if you could do high aspect ratio | 17:58 |
| gene_hacker | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LIGA | 17:58 |
| gene_hacker | LIGA is fucking insane! | 17:58 |
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| trsohmers | I'm currently raising money for my startup, which is making a new processor architecture focusing on energy efficency for the high performance computing industry | 17:58 |
| gene_hacker | then use somebody else's fab | 17:58 |
| trsohmers | But as I've been waiting to hear back on grants, and in the shitty fundraising process, I've gotten more and more interested in fabrication | 17:58 |
| trsohmers | gene_hacker: That's the easy solution, and what I am planning to do as the company | 17:59 |
| trsohmers | But as the company has no money and I'm basically sitting on my ass waiting for money, I decided to learn about nanofab... and I thought of some ideas (like the metal deposition technique) | 18:00 |
| seba-- | you have a company | 18:00 |
| seba-- | which does nothing? | 18:00 |
| kanzure | anyone can make a company | 18:00 |
| kanzure | for like $200 | 18:00 |
| trsohmers | $300* | 18:00 |
| trsohmers | plus $99 a year, damn delaware | 18:00 |
| seba-- | how much do you pay per month for having a company? | 18:00 |
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| trsohmers | seba--: Why does that matter? | 18:01 |
| seba-- | i'm interested | 18:01 |
| trsohmers | I mean, I don't pay anything per month, unless you distribute the yearly costs | 18:01 |
| gene_hacker | well if you have a simulation of your processor, you could probably attract investors | 18:01 |
| trsohmers | That's what I've been doing, and we've had some nibbles | 18:02 |
| seba-- | oh cool, you don't have any taxes/contributions or whatever | 18:02 |
| seba-- | hm | 18:02 |
| chris_99 | what have you prototyped it on? | 18:02 |
| trsohmers | we have a core simulation on an FPGA | 18:02 |
| trsohmers | a FPGA* | 18:02 |
| trsohmers | and an almost complete instruction set emulator | 18:03 |
| trsohmers | Since it is a team of 3 people (and I'm the only one full time), it's difficult to get major progress done unless we have capital | 18:03 |
| trsohmers | Basically, the reason I'm interested in this (micro/nanofab) is because I see it potentially being a major gamechanger in the future if you can do small scale production "at home" | 18:06 |
| trsohmers | and by at home, I mean less than $1 million | 18:06 |
| kanzure | small scale production at home does not require nanometer-scale features | 18:06 |
| trsohmers | If you want to have a production quality chip, it does | 18:07 |
| trsohmers | But that's not my goal right now (or even in the next 1 to 2 years) | 18:07 |
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| trsohmers | But as a currently fabless semiconductor company, the only way I think you can take down Intel (which I equate to The Evil Empire) is to do fabrication yourself | 18:07 |
| trsohmers | It's not a cheap or easy thing, but it is something I would love the opportunity to tackle sometime in the future | 18:08 |
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| kanzure | "production quality chips" began at 200 micron feature sizes | 18:08 |
| kanzure | the 4004 actually worked, you know | 18:09 |
| gene_hacker | but you can have someone else make your chips in a fab | 18:09 |
| trsohmers | gene_hacker: Yes, and that is the plan | 18:09 |
| gene_hacker | we can't even do that with regular products yet! | 18:09 |
| kanzure | intel is far from the only game in town for fabrication | 18:09 |
| trsohmers | I'm only looking at nanofab for my own personal interest at the moment | 18:09 |
| kanzure | you can get lots of asics and other stuff fabbed by all the other fabrication shops before you have to think about intel | 18:09 |
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| kanzure | if 10 micron transistors aren't useful, how does that explain the ~decade of chips that worked at that scale | 18:09 |
| trsohmers | I know, I've already talked to Global Foundries and TSMC, plus a number of smaller folks | 18:10 |
| seba-- | trsohmers, why don't you just use a stream of copper ions | 18:10 |
| trsohmers | kanzure: If we're trying to prove that we are 10x more power efficient for the same performance, then we have to do it at a similar process to be comparable | 18:11 |
| seba-- | when it would strike the target it would deposit! | 18:11 |
| kanzure | have you investigated microfluidic cooling of integrated circuits | 18:11 |
| trsohmers | seba--: There already is ion beam induced/assisted deposition | 18:11 |
| kanzure | and if so, what did you determine | 18:11 |
| seba-- | trsohmers, so what's wrong with that | 18:11 |
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| trsohmers | kanzure: I think that it has real potential | 18:11 |
| gene_hacker | except if you're doing multiphase microchannel flow | 18:12 |
| trsohmers | seba--: A FIB is $~600k used | 18:12 |
| gene_hacker | that's a boondoggle, hopefully we'll get it some day | 18:12 |
| trsohmers | and that's a shitty one | 18:12 |
| seba-- | trsohmers, what's fib | 18:12 |
| trsohmers | Focused Ion Beam | 18:12 |
| seba-- | trsohmers, why don't you make it for less | 18:12 |
| seba-- | trsohmers, it's basically a cathode ray tube working in reverse | 18:13 |
| seba-- | lol | 18:13 |
| trsohmers | seba--: It's a possibility, same as making an electron beam/SEM... but a lot of moving parts | 18:13 |
| trsohmers | exactly | 18:13 |
| kanzure | yeah iirc it doesn't cost $600k to build a focused ion beam miller thing | 18:13 |
| trsohmers | controlling the beam is a pain in the ass | 18:13 |
| seba-- | why | 18:13 |
| kanzure | because he doesn't know about the open source controller | 18:13 |
| trsohmers | ? | 18:14 |
| kanzure | electrowhatsit.. hrm where did it go | 18:14 |
| trsohmers | But not just the controller | 18:14 |
| gene_hacker | it's also a bunch of precision machined high vacuum stuff | 18:14 |
| gene_hacker | right? | 18:14 |
| trsohmers | actually focusing the beam down to a worthwhile (for integrated circuits... less then a micon) feature sizes | 18:14 |
| seba-- | that's nothing trsohmers can't do | 18:14 |
| trsohmers | I'm not all that smart. I don't want moving parts :P | 18:15 |
| seba-- | moving parts lol | 18:15 |
| seba-- | wtf | 18:15 |
| seba-- | just electric and magnetic fields | 18:15 |
| trsohmers | I don't mean physically moving | 18:15 |
| trsohmers | difficult to control, at least I think/thought they were | 18:16 |
| trsohmers | I'm a processor architect/IC designer with no real experience in that or anything else, what do I know? | 18:16 |
| seba-- | what about open source nuclear bombs using thorium | 18:17 |
| seba-- | that would be cool | 18:17 |
| trsohmers | That's why I thought of the photoelectric metal deposition, as it's a pretty stupid principle, that I thought would have an obvious flaw, but I still can't find it. | 18:17 |
| trsohmers | ... | 18:17 |
| seba-- | why nobody started such project yet | 18:17 |
| seba-- | there are 3D printed guns | 18:17 |
| gene_hacker | metal in vapor phase isn't attracted by electric fields? | 18:18 |
| trsohmers | It may be a bit of hubris/naivety, but I'm hoping that my stupid deposition idea may be so simple and dumb that no one has tried it, but it may actually just work | 18:18 |
| seba-- | maybe | 18:18 |
| seba-- | you can also charge metals | 18:18 |
| seba-- | by x-rays | 18:18 |
| trsohmers | you can | 18:18 |
| trsohmers | an x ray is a photon | 18:18 |
| seba-- | yes | 18:18 |
| seba-- | but it works differently | 18:19 |
| trsohmers | but the highest energy photon you would need (by my calculation) would be ~190nm | 18:19 |
| trsohmers | or like 6.something eV | 18:19 |
| trsohmers | (I have it written down somewhere) | 18:19 |
| seba-- | hm | 18:19 |
| trsohmers | and that was for platinum | 18:20 |
| trsohmers | which you would never need anything that high | 18:20 |
| trsohmers | so something like 230nm would be fine | 18:20 |
| trsohmers | But regardless | 18:20 |
| trsohmers | an ArF excimer laser would work fine | 18:20 |
| trsohmers | Do even better than required | 18:20 |
| seba-- | i think i'm going to be plumber, that seems easy | 18:21 |
| trsohmers | an electron plumber? | 18:21 |
| seba-- | no, a normal water one | 18:21 |
| gradstudentbot | I hope they kick me out. | 18:22 |
| trsohmers | Be at least a photon plumber | 18:22 |
| trsohmers | Oh oh I know a joke~ | 18:22 |
| trsohmers | seba--: How do you tell the difference between a chemist and a plumber? | 18:22 |
| seba-- | hm | 18:23 |
| trsohmers | any guesses? | 18:23 |
| ParahSailin | i dont get it | 18:23 |
| trsohmers | How they pronounce unionized. | 18:23 |
| trsohmers | budum tissssssss | 18:23 |
| gene_hacker | well trsohmers, you should first do some math to figure out if what your are doing is feasible | 18:25 |
| seba-- | maybe i'll change oil to cars | 18:25 |
| seba-- | that's also easy! | 18:25 |
| trsohmers | gene_hacker: Well, I think I have done it for the energy required for the light, as long as it is ~200nm (or lower) wavelength | 18:26 |
| gene_hacker | but what about the deposition of the metal part? | 18:26 |
| gene_hacker | can you show that the metal is attracted to the charged parts over the uncharged parts enough to get a difference in deposition? | 18:27 |
| trsohmers | That I don't even know where to begin | 18:28 |
| trsohmers | (I had an 8th grade introductory chemistry course) | 18:28 |
| gene_hacker | first see if someone has done something similiar | 18:28 |
| trsohmers | I've been looking for a week and a half, and have not found anything | 18:29 |
| gene_hacker | someone may not have done metal deposition for the purpose of chip making, but there might be weird applications that might need such things | 18:29 |
| trsohmers | Tried every combination of "micro nano metal deposition magnetic static electron photon light photoelectric" | 18:30 |
| trsohmers | and some others | 18:30 |
| gene_hacker | it may not necessarily have deposition | 18:30 |
| trsohmers | Typically if I've had an idea, it's something I have found within 5 to 20 minutes of easy googling, and it was most likely done before I was born | 18:30 |
| trsohmers | Would there be any decent software that I would be able to set up a simulation with? | 18:32 |
| gene_hacker | I would say you don't need to do simulation yet | 18:32 |
| gene_hacker | just napkin calculations | 18:32 |
| trsohmers | So assuming I can not find anything online | 18:32 |
| gene_hacker | get down to the physics | 18:33 |
| trsohmers | So to my understanding (which is very incomplete), the actual attraction is due to there being an electron hole (a positive charge) with one atom, and then an extra electron with the other atom (a negative charge) | 18:34 |
| trsohmers | correct? | 18:34 |
| gene_hacker | I think so | 18:34 |
| trsohmers | Anyone else in this chat want to jump in? | 18:35 |
| gene_hacker | so you might want to start here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle_deposition | 18:35 |
| trsohmers | Anyways: The photoelectric effect is if a photon with enough energy hits a metal, it causes an electron to jump, thus giving it a positive charge | 18:35 |
| seba-- | yes | 18:36 |
| seba-- | but jump where? | 18:36 |
| gene_hacker | that doesn't matter | 18:36 |
| seba-- | of course it does | 18:37 |
| trsohmers | seba--: We don't care about the whole material changing its charge | 18:37 |
| seba-- | if it lands 10 nm away | 18:37 |
| seba-- | it doesn't matter | 18:37 |
| seba-- | lol | 18:37 |
| trsohmers | only single (adjacent) atoms | 18:37 |
| gene_hacker | what one should first demonstrate is that metal vapor experiences a difference in deposition rate on charged and uncharged surfaces | 18:37 |
| gradstudentbot | Did you see that hack? | 18:37 |
| trsohmers | and if you are shooting all of the ones you want to be positively charged, then the electrons would not jump to atoms that are also under work | 18:38 |
| trsohmers | gradstudentbot: ? | 18:38 |
| gradstudentbot | You know they keep the mice in better conditions than us. | 18:38 |
| trsohmers | wait, is he/it really a bot? | 18:38 |
| gene_hacker | yes | 18:38 |
| trsohmers | heh | 18:38 |
| trsohmers | I guess I failed the turing test | 18:38 |
| kanzure | gradstudentbot: let's write a paper about that | 18:39 |
| gradstudentbot | Am I going to be first author? | 18:39 |
| kanzure | the bot has more game than most of us | 18:39 |
| trsohmers | haha | 18:39 |
| trsohmers | gene_hacker: why would metal vapor matter? | 18:39 |
| gene_hacker | gradstudentbot: how's research | 18:39 |
| gradstudentbot | No, you definitely have a right to your own opinion. I just.. wish you wouldn't voice it. | 18:39 |
| gene_hacker | that's what you are using correct? | 18:39 |
| trsohmers | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sputtering | 18:40 |
| trsohmers | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sputter_deposition | 18:40 |
| trsohmers | .title | 18:40 |
| yoleaux | trsohmers: Sorry, that command (.title) crashed. | 18:40 |
| trsohmers | kanzure: what is that magic you do | 18:40 |
| trsohmers | .wik sputter deposition | 18:41 |
| yoleaux | "Sputter deposition is a physical vapor deposition (PVD) method of thin film deposition by sputtering. This involves ejecting material from a "target" that is a source onto a "substrate" such as a silicon wafer. Resputtering is re-emission of the deposited material during the deposition process by ion or atom bombardment." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sputter_deposition | 18:41 |
| gene_hacker | I doubt it then | 18:41 |
| trsohmers | There we go | 18:41 |
| trsohmers | gene_hacker: You doubt what then? | 18:41 |
| gene_hacker | it doubt it will work | 18:42 |
| trsohmers | why? | 18:42 |
| gene_hacker | you know your particle energy right? | 18:42 |
| gene_hacker | it's tens of eV right? | 18:42 |
| trsohmers | It doesn't have to be | 18:42 |
| gene_hacker | so in order for deposition to happen a particle must lose some of it's kinetic energy to a surface | 18:44 |
| trsohmers | So I guess you wouldn't exactly use sputtering | 18:44 |
| gene_hacker | does an electric charge assist in that process enough to be non-neglible? | 18:45 |
| gene_hacker | in short, you can probably make a simple model of your process using basic physics | 18:45 |
| trsohmers | But would that apply on the nanoscale? | 18:45 |
| trsohmers | (I really have no idea) | 18:46 |
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| trsohmers | I may also be overestimating simulation software, but I would hope as a nonscientist that there would be simulation software where you could have a simulation like this | 18:46 |
| gene_hacker | yes | 18:47 |
| gene_hacker | you will probably need some fudge factor, which you can probably find in some literal on vapor deposition | 18:48 |
| gene_hacker | otherwise you'll have to do molecular dynamics which is hard | 18:48 |
| kanzure | paperbot: http://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2014/ta/c3ta14388k | 18:49 |
| kanzure | .title | 18:49 |
| yoleaux | Patterned liquid permeation through the TiO2 nanotube array coated Ti mesh by photoelectric cooperation for liquid printing | 18:49 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Patterned%20liquid%20permeation%20through%20the%20TiO2%20nanotube%20array%20coated%20Ti%20mesh%20by%20photoelectric%20cooperation%20for%20liquid%20printing.pdf | 18:49 |
| trsohmers | That is a magic bot | 18:50 |
| trsohmers | As someone without journal access, it is a god | 18:50 |
| kanzure | bugfixes appreciated: https://github.com/kanzure/paperbot | 18:52 |
| nmz787 | hi | 18:55 |
| trsohmers | hi nmz787 | 18:55 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: got the alltronics stuff too | 18:56 |
| nmz787 | am about to go open up that light source thing | 18:56 |
| kanzure | there were three boxes of alltronics stuff | 18:56 |
| gradstudentbot | I wasn't able to find any references. | 18:57 |
| trsohmers | kanzure and gene_hacker: What do you guys think of that paper? | 18:58 |
| trsohmers | do you think it is possible without the whole permeable layer bit (assuming I am understanding that correctly) | 18:59 |
| kanzure | i haven't read it | 19:00 |
| trsohmers | how did you find that? | 19:00 |
| kanzure | my googlefu is better than yours | 19:00 |
| trsohmers | Damn | 19:00 |
| trsohmers | search term? | 19:01 |
| kanzure | photoelectric printing | 19:01 |
| kanzure | http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=intitle%3Aphotoelectric+printing&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=1%2C44&as_vis=1 | 19:02 |
| trsohmers | I searched photoelectric printing and photoelectric nano printing last week and never saw that | 19:03 |
| trsohmers | damn | 19:03 |
| trsohmers | I don't think you said anything about the idea specifically, kanzure... what do you think? | 19:05 |
| kanzure | still haven't read the paper | 19:06 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: yup | 19:06 |
| kanzure | good | 19:06 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: just the spec sheet that came with that instrument is great | 19:07 |
| nmz787 | scanning now | 19:07 |
| trsohmers | but of the photoelectric metal deposition idea in general (if you read my previous comments on it) | 19:07 |
| nmz787 | LIGA | 19:07 |
| kanzure | i don't have a useful opinion either way on that for the moment | 19:07 |
| nmz787 | is what I'd be interested in | 19:07 |
| trsohmers | nmz787: Did you see any of the earlier conversation on the metal deposition idea? | 19:07 |
| nmz787 | how many DPI is good enough for datasheet text | 19:09 |
| nmz787 | no imgs | 19:09 |
| nmz787 | trsohmers: no i scanned through but didn't absorb any of it | 19:09 |
| nmz787 | nothing about DNA | 19:09 |
| nmz787 | or synthesis | 19:09 |
| kanzure | dunno, it's whatever the octopart people say | 19:09 |
| nmz787 | heh | 19:09 |
| kanzure | heath: what do the octopart people say is okay for datasheet scanning dpi | 19:10 |
| trsohmers | nmz787: Are you working on/interested in DNA synthesis? | 19:10 |
| kanzure | heath: pester andre | 19:10 |
| nmz787 | yes | 19:10 |
| nmz787 | been working on it for ~5 years | 19:10 |
| kanzure | trsohmers: i bought a dna synthesizer and nmz787 received it today | 19:10 |
| trsohmers | Two of my friends are working on DNA synthesis | 19:11 |
| trsohmers | kanzure would probably be able to explain what they are doing better than I could | 19:12 |
| nmz787 | weren't they doing evolutionary stuff though? | 19:13 |
| nmz787 | and i think bulk reactions too | 19:13 |
| nmz787 | (so many molecules you can't keep track well) | 19:13 |
| trsohmers | I have no idea, all I know is they are working on a DNA synthesis chip | 19:14 |
| nmz787 | mm | 19:14 |
| nmz787 | I could be wrong | 19:14 |
| nmz787 | there are a few people who have mentioned it | 19:14 |
| nmz787 | in recent years | 19:15 |
| trsohmers | gene_hacker: Any ideas on how to investigate forward? | 19:16 |
| nmz787 | trsohmers: you know about FIB right? | 19:17 |
| trsohmers | nmz787: Of course | 19:17 |
| nmz787 | sorry! | 19:17 |
| trsohmers | Are you going to suggest milling or assisted deposition | 19:17 |
| nmz787 | what is it you're after? | 19:17 |
| trsohmers | No worried ;) | 19:17 |
| trsohmers | worries* | 19:17 |
| nmz787 | idk what the context is | 19:17 |
| trsohmers | Integrated circuit fabrication | 19:18 |
| trsohmers | I have a rough idea t hat if correct, may be able to do the photolithography step and metal deposition using the same equipment | 19:18 |
| trsohmers | much simpler and cheaper than traditional methods | 19:18 |
| nmz787 | hmm | 19:18 |
| nmz787 | isn | 19:18 |
| nmz787 | t the trad method to use resist and sputter? | 19:19 |
| nmz787 | or implant | 19:19 |
| trsohmers | yes | 19:19 |
| nmz787 | sputter isn't too hard to make | 19:19 |
| nmz787 | have you seen ben krasnow's series on making an LCD? | 19:20 |
| trsohmers | no I haven't | 19:20 |
| nmz787 | oh, he makes everything from ebay supplies | 19:20 |
| nmz787 | trsohmers: have you ever made transistors before? | 19:20 |
| nmz787 | or anything in a mems/semiconductor lab? | 19:21 |
| trsohmers | nmz787: I know the process (Jerri Ellsworth's videos) for transistors in your kitchen | 19:21 |
| kanzure | oh yeah, you should consider taking one of those classes at a community college | 19:21 |
| kanzure | they sometimes have mems classes etc | 19:21 |
| nmz787 | trsohmers: exactly | 19:21 |
| trsohmers | Everything I know has been either from Paul and Kettner, or two textbooks I have | 19:22 |
| nmz787 | trsohmers: if you can afford the $300-500 they are /the/ most learning per $ | 19:22 |
| trsohmers | plus the internet | 19:22 |
| nmz787 | mm | 19:22 |
| nmz787 | yeah the implant will be the hard thing | 19:22 |
| trsohmers | I'm technically not allowed to take credit earning courses, but I can probably do it anyways | 19:22 |
| nmz787 | is that some international thing? | 19:22 |
| trsohmers | I'm part of this thing called the Thiel Fellowship | 19:23 |
| trsohmers | http://thielfellowship.org | 19:23 |
| nmz787 | generally you can opt-out of credits | 19:23 |
| nmz787 | ah | 19:23 |
| nmz787 | yeah | 19:23 |
| kanzure | oh, just don't tell them | 19:23 |
| trsohmers | exactly | 19:23 |
| nmz787 | applied to some of their lab things with kanzure a while ago | 19:23 |
| kanzure | what? | 19:23 |
| trsohmers | Breakout Labs? | 19:23 |
| kanzure | i don't think so | 19:23 |
| nmz787 | wasn't it | 19:24 |
| kanzure | i don't remember asking thiel people for money | 19:24 |
| nmz787 | that was at least one | 19:24 |
| nmz787 | yeah | 19:24 |
| nmz787 | Lindy | 19:24 |
| kanzure | only lindy i know is related to shopbot | 19:24 |
| trsohmers | Oh yea, Lindy Fishburne | 19:25 |
| trsohmers | she's the head of Breakout Labs | 19:25 |
| trsohmers | anyways, nmz787, thanks for pointing me to krasnow | 19:29 |
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| nmz787 | trsohmers: yeah, he's great. did you have any ideas for implant? | 19:35 |
| nmz787 | or were you going to grow oxide then grow doped, and stack layers? | 19:36 |
| trsohmers | Didn't actually think about it too much | 19:36 |
| nmz787 | i.e. expose resist, grow oxide, ash resist, grow doped, spin resist and expose, repeat | 19:37 |
| nmz787 | metal is only usually top layers and vias and stuff | 19:38 |
| nmz787 | i think | 19:38 |
| nmz787 | i guess there could be metal in inner layers | 19:38 |
| trsohmers | I know, I just didn't think about it for this process (My unrealistic goal of having it all be in one machine/environment) | 19:38 |
| nmz787 | but yeah doping is how you get the action to happen, i thought | 19:38 |
| trsohmers | It is | 19:39 |
| gradstudentbot | Who's doing journal club today? | 19:40 |
| trsohmers | Well, you have a predoped wafer (p doped silicon), and then you need to negatively dope the source and drain | 19:41 |
| nmz787 | or grow it horizontally | 19:41 |
| trsohmers | ? | 19:41 |
| nmz787 | err | 19:41 |
| nmz787 | vertically | 19:41 |
| nmz787 | :P | 19:41 |
| trsohmers | that would mean depositing silicon on silicon | 19:42 |
| trsohmers | using a normal CMOS deposition process, the source and drain are inside the silicon wafer | 19:42 |
| trsohmers | you have those negatively doped, and have metal depostited directly ontop of the source and drain | 19:42 |
| trsohmers | http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/79/Lateral_mosfet.svg/600px-Lateral_mosfet.svg.png | 19:43 |
| trsohmers | there | 19:43 |
| trsohmers | and you have an oxide layer separating the silicon and the gate | 19:43 |
| nmz787 | MM | 19:43 |
| nmz787 | whoops | 19:43 |
| nmz787 | yeah it would be weird but you could just turn it sideways | 19:43 |
| trsohmers | I suppose | 19:43 |
| trsohmers | that may work with a FinFET | 19:44 |
| trsohmers | https://www.google.com/search?q=silicon+gate+drain&tbm=isch&ei=1_CkU8L9L4OCogTZwICwAQ#q=finfet+source+drain&tbm=isch&facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=SxlihG_Sir7N8M%253A%3BrabmVDcQelYHtM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fsemimd.com%252Fhars%252Ffiles%252F2013%252F05%252FFig1_IBM_Hook_SOI_FinFET.png%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fsemimd.com%252Fhars%252Ftag%252Ffinfet%252F%3B834%3B512 | 19:44 |
| trsohmers | they are three dimensional and kinda weird, but have much lower leakage | 19:44 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: sorry for the 8MB file http://diyhpl.us/~nmz787/pdf/bio-rad_201ce.pdf | 19:58 |
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| nmz787 | the jpgs it was originally scanned to were 2.9MB | 19:59 |
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| kanzure | why is this from 1998? | 20:17 |
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| nmz787 | NOS | 20:21 |
| nmz787 | whoo got my openspectrometer PCBs today too | 20:24 |
| nmz787 | dang | 20:24 |
| nmz787 | I'm all queued up | 20:24 |
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| kanzure | that sounds gross | 21:21 |
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| kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQeeJEpBYsg | 22:38 |
| yoleaux | БУТЫЛКОРЕЗ версия 2.0 Применение веревки из бутылки | 22:38 |
| kanzure | (plastic rope from a plastic bottle) | 22:38 |
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| kanzure | "My guess is not so optimistic. # of real rust programmers is low. If integrating Firefox with Servo means having 1 small part of Firefox integrated with Servo, mabye, a month of work? But the entire Firefox render engine with Servo will probably be at least 5 years away. While 5 years seems a long time, don't forget time fly and bug blockers come up." | 22:46 |
| kanzure | geeze | 22:46 |
| dingo | "dont forget time fly", is "time fly" some cliche? | 22:53 |
| dingo | i can copy hundreds of lines of code between any of java, python, or C, and migrate them from one language to another in just minutes -- sometimes using vim macros | 22:54 |
| dingo | imperitive languages like these translate very effectively | 22:54 |
| dingo | i guess the problem of course is when there ssome fucking glue library somewhere... can't rust link with C? you would piecemeal it i'm sure | 22:55 |
| dingo | aparently so with a "cate" | 22:56 |
| dingo | crate | 22:56 |
| kanzure | sadly firefox isn't c anyway | 23:13 |
| kanzure | isn't it like 200 layers of javascript before you realize it's just a clown on a unicycle | 23:13 |
| dingo | hehe | 23:14 |
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| --- Log closed Sat Jun 21 00:00:41 2014 | ||
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