| --- Log opened Mon Aug 03 00:00:29 2015 | ||
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| xtalmath | is black "pure" chocolate a kind of positive photoresist? | 03:04 |
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| xtalmath | are there any simple household photoresists? | 03:05 |
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| fluffypony | http://www.local10.com/news/south-florida-woman-first-to-receive-bionic-eye-in-florida/34470754 | 04:25 |
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| xtalmath | is there evidence of biological backpropagation at each synapse? is inhibitory or excitatory effect determined only by the presynaptic neuron? or can the postsynaptic neuron express different receptors to interpret a fixed neurotransmitter as either inhibitory or excitatory? | 04:54 |
| xtalmath | i.e. is the synaptic weight determined solely by the presynaptic neuron or both ( weight=w(pre,post) ) ? and specifically is the sign of the weight a function of solely presynaptic neuron |weight|=w(pre) ? | 04:56 |
| xtalmath | I guess the postsynaptic neuron has influence on the weight by expressing more or less receptors to change the magnitude of the weight. but do neurotransmitters exist for which there are multiple receptors with opposite inhibitory & excitatory postsynaptic interpretation of the same neurotransmitter exist? | 04:58 |
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| xtalmath | i.e. how can a neuron know in what sense to change its output synapse weights -say to accomplish learning- if there is no feedback from the postsynaptic neuron? | 05:03 |
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| archels | the classical view is that the postsynaptic neuron determines the strength of the synapse, and the presynaptic side just adjusts to match the size | 05:05 |
| archels | of course this is a huge simplification, not to say just plain false | 05:05 |
| xtalmath | with strength you mean magnitude? | 05:06 |
| archels | yeah, amplitude of the EPSC/EPSP | 05:06 |
| xtalmath | I was more curious about the sign in fact | 05:06 |
| xtalmath | how does the presynaptic side adjust to the postsynaptic neuron? this entails flow of information in the opposite direction of classical digital neural networks? | 05:07 |
| archels | it may help to look at it the other way around. How can a neuron know how to change its input synapse weights? Well, it can just "sample" nearby axons that might be interesting. | 05:07 |
| archels | do you know about STDP? | 05:07 |
| CaptHindsight | xtalmath: photoresist for what application? What chemicals does it need to hold up to be be removed by? | 05:08 |
| CaptHindsight | or removed by | 05:08 |
| xtalmath | archels: STDP is interesting | 05:11 |
| xtalmath | CaptHindsight: well, I would be happy if there was some "household" hardware store chemical for which any photoresist behaviour is known | 05:12 |
| xtalmath | (i.e. I won't be picky about poor performance, or limited processes) | 05:13 |
| archels | you can get spray can photoresist to apply coatings | 05:13 |
| xtalmath | yeah, you mean for PCB | 05:13 |
| archels | if you spray it on a PCB, sure | 05:13 |
| archels | not sure what exotic applications you had in mind =) | 05:14 |
| xtalmath | are there like exhaustive lists of photoinitiators and heuristic chemical rules? | 05:14 |
| CaptHindsight | emulsion type photoresists for silk screen are really cheap | 05:14 |
| xtalmath | is that like literally artist silk screen? | 05:15 |
| CaptHindsight | artist, poster, t-shirt etc | 05:15 |
| xtalmath | how cheap is cheap? how "ecofriendly" are they? | 05:15 |
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| CaptHindsight | http://www.advancedscreenprintsupply.com/screen_printing_emulsions.htm?gclid=CNG8q93yjMcCFQataQod3UYIdQ | 05:17 |
| xtalmath | they can be spin coated? used at micron scale resolutions? | 05:19 |
| CaptHindsight | what do you want them to adhere to? | 05:20 |
| CaptHindsight | xtalmath: thats why I asked the application and how they would be removed rather than play 20 questions | 05:21 |
| xtalmath | I am sorry | 05:22 |
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| xtalmath | what was my last msg? | 05:59 |
| archels | log url in topic | 06:02 |
| xtalmath | archels: I don't understand how a neuron can change its input weight? and suppose it is according to some rule trying to change the sign of the weight (i.e. from "0.01" to "-0.02")? it should then somehow demand the previous neuron to use a different neurotransmitter? i.e. what exactly is inhibitory/excitatory? strictly the transmitter molecule? or also the receptor? | 06:06 |
| xtalmath | if also the receptor, then it is very misleading to have inhibitory/excitatory neurotransmitter terminology. I believe that fundamentally there must be backpropagation at the neuronal level, I can't believe all learning to pass through some global "good/bad" brain variable. | 06:07 |
| xtalmath | also, how does the single neuron adjust a specific input weight to react more or less inhibitory/excitatory, without equally adjusting the other input weights? | 06:07 |
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| archels | xtalmath: look up Dale's law | 06:09 |
| xtalmath | furthermore, only adjusting the input weights cannot cause backpropagation, since that would require postsynaptic neurons somehow influencing the current neuron's firing. Information must cross the synapse in both ways for backpropagation to work. Unless backpropagation for learning requires cyclic connections. | 06:09 |
| archels | backprop is just a theoretical construct. It (very very likely) does not happen in biology. | 06:09 |
| kanzure | weights can be changed by adding and removing ampa receptors | 06:10 |
| kanzure | and the amount of expression is some obnoxious methylation thing or transcription cofactor thing | 06:10 |
| kanzure | also regulation of expression of nmda receptors plays an important role in modulation of plasticity and synapse weighting | 06:11 |
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| xtalmath | archels: well I can still imagine "backpropagation" mechanism to work at a very low level, for those circuits that contain cyclic feedback connections. but that does not explain learned patterns in feedbackless parts of the brain (if they even exist? perhaps the neurons most closely connected to input sensors, like close the retina). | 06:15 |
| archels | the retina is an exceedingly intricate neural tangle | 06:16 |
| archels | you're right, but only for very simple peripheral sensors such as mechano-, pain receptors | 06:17 |
| xtalmath | kanzure: to be honest I don't see how transcription (co)factors and gene regulation can target a specific input weight among the many of this same neuron cell? | 06:17 |
| kanzure | it's not a specific input weight | 06:17 |
| kanzure | it's just more/less of the same | 06:17 |
| xtalmath | kanzure: so according to you there is backpropagation at neuronal level? | 06:19 |
| xtalmath | I don't even understand how this is still a question of debate with all these fluorescence microscopy and neuron chips... | 06:20 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Review%20-%202007%20-%20AMPA%20receptor%20trafficking.pdf | 06:21 |
| xtalmath | thx | 06:22 |
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| xtalmath | are there publicly available large datasets of neuron fires and synaptic protein levels for a bunch of connected neurons (say on chip or in culture)? | 06:40 |
| xtalmath | "In particular, neurons haveevolved specific pathways to transport mRNAout into dendrites, where subsequent localtranslation can occur" ! thx again kanzure | 06:48 |
| xtalmath | so it is probably translation modulation instead of transcription modulation | 06:49 |
| xtalmath | and somehow local (because of long dendrite distance, I assume the concentrations at different synapses can be very different, while having low concentration gradients along the long dendrites...) | 06:51 |
| xtalmath | they are almost seperate cells | 06:52 |
| xtalmath | one could speculate that different synaptic weights of the same neuron are correlated by how close they are as leaves on dendrite branches... | 06:55 |
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| kanzure | https://soundcloud.com/progressivehouseworldwide/sets/phw-elements-radio-digitally | 08:19 |
| JayDugger | Anyone know 1) what relationship Rob Rinehart has with Soylent, and 2) what's this about "Soylent 2.0"? | 08:26 |
| JayDugger | See here: http://robrhinehart.com/?p=1331 | 08:28 |
| kanzure | recipe is at http://robrhinehart.com/?p=424 | 08:28 |
| kanzure | see http://gnusha.org/logs/2013-02-20.log | 08:29 |
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| JayDugger | Thank you. | 08:33 |
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| ParahSailin_ | so he claims that the algae oil is more efficient than plant oil | 09:01 |
| ParahSailin_ | you'd picture the algae being harvested from a solar pond of some sort right? | 09:01 |
| ParahSailin_ | nope "Solazyme grows microalgae in the dark, inside huge stainless-steel containers. The company's researchers feed algae sugar, which the organisms then convert into various types of oil. The oil can be extracted and further processed to make a range of fuels, including diesel and jet fuel, as well as other products | 09:01 |
| kanzure | yes, solar doesn't work with dense algae ponds without lots and lots of mixing | 09:02 |
| ParahSailin_ | corn | 09:02 |
| nmz787_i | omg like no one has figured out mixing | 09:02 |
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| ParahSailin_ | soylent guy is pretty delusional | 09:03 |
| chris_99 | how bad does soylent taste out of interest | 09:03 |
| ParahSailin_ | 1.3 tastes like oatmeal | 09:04 |
| ParahSailin_ | he should have stuck to the high oleic sunflower | 09:04 |
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| nmz787_i1 | juri_: the SEM I've got is a JSM-T200 | 11:24 |
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| juri_ | nmz787_i1: i've got a cambridge stereoscan 200 here. | 11:34 |
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| FourFire | nmz787, If you grow algae in the dark you don't need to tye up so much land surface area | 12:00 |
| FourFire | and there are issues with grime buildup on the inside of the glass tubes | 12:01 |
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| Houshalter | FourFire, well the sugar has to come from somewhere. | 12:18 |
| FourFire | yes, but cane fields are a mature technology, and cheap | 12:26 |
| FourFire | but building out glass tubes and maintaining them is probably way more epxnsive if you have to do it spread out over many square meters, instead of in an efficent, cubical building | 12:27 |
| Houshalter | algae is more efficient at photosynthesis | 12:27 |
| Houshalter | by like a lot | 12:27 |
| delinquentme | why no go up? | 12:28 |
| Houshalter | in 20 years most sugar will be produced by algae | 12:28 |
| delinquentme | algae in vertical could be mush cheaper no? | 12:28 |
| FourFire | delinquentme, shadows | 12:28 |
| delinquentme | Houshalter, in 20 years well be on silicon : | 12:28 |
| delinquentme | FourFire, penetration | 12:29 |
| FourFire | also, water pressure? | 12:29 |
| Houshalter | i doubt that | 12:29 |
| delinquentme | arrange it that darkest growth is at bottom | 12:31 |
| FourFire | delinquentme, I doubt it (silicon) | 12:33 |
| delinquentme | ::D | 12:33 |
| FourFire | maybe in 40, a large minority will be, but at significant personal disadvantage | 12:34 |
| FourFire | ok, clear with me, how tall do you picture these vertical tubes? | 12:34 |
| FourFire | Houshalter, I'm sure at larger scale, the incresed energy efficiency will make the initial capital investment of vast fields of glass worthwhile, but not before | 12:35 |
| FourFire | a large company with loads of capital and the will to spend it makes it happen | 12:36 |
| ParahSailin_ | open ponds seem more worthwhile | 12:37 |
| delinquentme | ParahSailin_, stop being so contrarian | 12:38 |
| ParahSailin_ | glass is pretty expensive | 12:38 |
| ParahSailin_ | can you imagine glass on a cash crop scale? | 12:39 |
| delinquentme | FourFire, also if you aerate from below, you can adjust aeration rate to get a nice density gradient upwards | 12:39 |
| FourFire | ParahSailin_, that's my point | 12:40 |
| FourFire | but open ponds waste water | 12:40 |
| ParahSailin_ | yeah thats problem | 12:40 |
| FourFire | we donæt have that much water unless we've solved energy and can just desalinate | 12:41 |
| ParahSailin_ | theres algae that grow in saline | 12:41 |
| FourFire | you don't want to salt that much land | 12:41 |
| ParahSailin_ | theres lots of australia thats just wasteland | 12:42 |
| ParahSailin_ | the chinese at one point had a plan to turn some of the desert into an inland sea | 12:43 |
| ParahSailin_ | with massive amounts of pumping | 12:43 |
| delinquentme | do you meant that semiconductor wastewater oasis? | 12:44 |
| delinquentme | theres no salt! just a few heavy metals ! | 12:44 |
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| Houshalter | FourFire, maybe, sugar is quite expensive. | 12:48 |
| Houshalter | FourFire, not everyhwere in the world has a water shortage | 12:49 |
| Houshalter | i live in a former swamp and we have more water than we know what to do with | 12:49 |
| FourFire | no, but if we begin to actually use our resources efficiently in order to develop the amount of infrastructure we actually need, we will quickly run short of anything we don't produce | 12:50 |
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| delinquentme | FourFire, that can be said for the sun. | 12:51 |
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| FourFire | (non/slowly renewable ground and surface freshwater being one of those resources) | 12:52 |
| Houshalter | water is not a finite or even particularly scarce resource. If you are using it for algae, it doesn't even need to be clean. | 12:52 |
| FourFire | sure, but how much oil are we using? | 12:52 |
| FourFire | how much oil will we need to power the world in 10, 20 years | 12:52 |
| FourFire | we're going tp have to cover the majority of the petroleum supply with bio alternatives, because of the peak | 12:53 |
| drethelin | peak oil is not a thing | 12:53 |
| drethelin | people talk about the available supply running out | 12:54 |
| FourFire | Houshalter, what's the billion words dataset? | 12:54 |
| drethelin | but that's because people only spend the minimum amount possible ot maintain an available supply | 12:54 |
| Houshalter | FourFire, what how did you find out about that? | 12:54 |
| drethelin | talking about only having enough oil to last us a few years is like talking about grocery store food only lasting us a few days | 12:54 |
| FourFire | drethelin, we aren't going to exhaust available oil, we'll just use up all the priftable oil | 12:54 |
| drethelin | that's a nonsensical statement | 12:54 |
| drethelin | "profitable at what price" | 12:55 |
| Houshalter | FourFire, it's not the amount of oil that needs produced ,it's whether it's even economical at all | 12:55 |
| drethelin | not "profitable oil" | 12:55 |
| drethelin | consider this: it costs money to find oil | 12:55 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, surely someones algae'd in here before | 12:55 |
| drethelin | this money needs to be spent to find it | 12:55 |
| drethelin | if you have a large stockpile | 12:55 |
| drethelin | why would you spend money finding oil | 12:55 |
| Houshalter | we will worry about running out of fresh water to grow algae when we are already producing thousands of gallons a minute in a swamp somewhere | 12:55 |
| drethelin | before you have to? | 12:55 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: i worked on an algae biofuel project and an alge insulin project, what do you want | 12:55 |
| FourFire | drethelin, about opportunity cost | 12:55 |
| Houshalter | nothing wrong with using sea water either | 12:56 |
| delinquentme | I want dougnuts | 12:56 |
| FourFire | if you need to provide X energy per time in order to have Y productivity otherwise it will cost you Z strategic position | 12:56 |
| delinquentme | but these guys are algaeing or brainstorming on it | 12:56 |
| FourFire | then you pay for X | 12:56 |
| Houshalter | FourFire, https://www.kaggle.com/c/billion-word-imputation | 12:57 |
| FourFire | of course, I'd prefer that we all just put solar panels on our roofs and found a better method for electrical energy storage and upgraded out logistics netowrk to electric tech | 12:57 |
| FourFire | but that's not going to happen in time | 12:57 |
| drethelin | in time for what | 12:57 |
| drethelin | you're getting your predictions from status-whoring fearmongers | 12:58 |
| drethelin | the other thing is | 12:58 |
| drethelin | there is no discontinuity | 12:58 |
| drethelin | we won't "suddenly" run out of oil | 12:58 |
| FourFire | drethelin, in time to provide for rising demand as supply shortfalls | 12:58 |
| drethelin | there's not a due date | 12:58 |
| drethelin | there will be no supply shortfalls | 12:59 |
| FourFire | of course not, we're gradually lowering production | 12:59 |
| drethelin | 'I hope next year's crops come in in time to make up the supply shortfalls from last year!" | 12:59 |
| drethelin | it's an incoherent position | 13:00 |
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| FourFire | ok, the catastrophe I am implying is a dramatic lowering in median wealth, because the cost of using, energy, on a personal basis, and indirectly resources which require energy to be produced, will be relatively higher over time rather than lower, as the trends have been these past... what 300+ years? | 13:00 |
| drethelin | yes | 13:00 |
| drethelin | and Im saying that will never happen | 13:00 |
| drethelin | it will not be dramatic | 13:01 |
| drethelin | technological improvements are dramatic changes | 13:01 |
| FourFire | ok, what reason leads you to believe it? | 13:01 |
| drethelin | because markets are a thing, and aggregation is a thing | 13:01 |
| drethelin | there is not some single big pool of oil that will suddenly run out | 13:02 |
| Houshalter | drethelin, yes oil prices have never increased rapidly before and it's totally impossible they could ever do that to a greater degree | 13:02 |
| FourFire | Ok, I admit that my mental state is unstable today | 13:02 |
| FourFire | today has been a pessimistic day from my perspective, due to IRL events | 13:02 |
| drethelin | Househalter: oil prices have both increased and decreased rapidly | 13:02 |
| FourFire | Houshalter, you will have noticed this from our earlier discussion | 13:02 |
| drethelin | but not from some cosmic or environmental reason causing us to run out of oil | 13:02 |
| FourFire | I didn't say anything about cosmic | 13:03 |
| FourFire | The model behind the concept of peak oil is based off a well regarded geologist's research | 13:04 |
| Houshalter | they are pumping it out of the ground much faster than it's economically rational to do | 13:04 |
| drethelin | what does that mean | 13:04 |
| FourFire | I mean, sure, I'm hopeful that this time Fusion isn't just 20 more years away | 13:04 |
| drethelin | why would they do that? | 13:04 |
| drethelin | Fourfire: so is every model that has failed to come true | 13:05 |
| FourFire | that the price of solar panel production and installation will fall below the price of purchasing firing oil, or gas | 13:05 |
| drethelin | there are THOUSANDS of well regarded scientists in almost every field | 13:05 |
| drethelin | some of them will ALWAYS predict disasster | 13:05 |
| Houshalter | who's they? You have a bunch of oil in the ground and you need to sell it. In the long run it would make way more sense to keep it in the ground and wait till prices rise, but who is going to take that bet? With who's money? | 13:05 |
| drethelin | people thought there was going to be a giant population crash or an ice age or mass starvation | 13:05 |
| Houshalter | drethelin, oh yes someone in the past made a bad prediction therefore all predictions are wrong and bad things can never happen | 13:06 |
| FourFire | yeah we stalled the ice age bac in the bronze age, due to deforestation | 13:06 |
| FourFire | population crash, we invented fertilizers and other agriculture stuff | 13:06 |
| drethelin | Houshalter: predicting the end of the world makes you well known and noticed. It should be no surprise that predictions of the end of the world are more common than world ending events | 13:06 |
| FourFire | we learned how to make a world that sort of worked, where <5% of the population produced the food for everyone | 13:06 |
| FourFire | and we did it all by burning petroleum | 13:07 |
| FourFire | drethelin, I'm not predicting the end of the world, just a slowing down of technological development, which is personally fatal | 13:07 |
| FourFire | hey I'm all for looking forward to the best futre, where technology accelerates just fst enogyh, where we platau at above average human artifical general intelligences and fix all the coordination problems, then launch into space, and then AI takes off due to massive amounts of computational resources made avilible by permitting recycling of the earth's constituent atoms (once we've recorded it, of course) | 13:10 |
| delinquentme | ooo theres an interesting storage problem. | 13:11 |
| delinquentme | if we wanted to 'store' the arrangement of atoms on the earth. How large would that storage medium need to be | 13:11 |
| Houshalter | FourFire, that is a rather specific prediction of future events and depends on a lot of things going just right | 13:11 |
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| FourFire | yeah, a lot could go wrong | 13:12 |
| FourFire | there could be antagonistic social warfare if tech progresses too quickly, too visibly | 13:12 |
| Houshalter | I just count on one thing going right: FAI. Everything else is a distraction | 13:12 |
| FourFire | we could completely lose control to half formed artificial intelligences | 13:12 |
| drethelin | the point is not that something ccan't go disastrously wrong | 13:13 |
| drethelin | the point is that any given disaster that someone is pushing is probably more self-serving | 13:13 |
| drethelin | than it is informative | 13:13 |
| drethelin | and that for a LOT of disasters we have good evidecne that they are not in fact imminent | 13:13 |
| FourFire | which is the most likely thing to go wrong, besides things we already know for sure, climate change, etc. | 13:13 |
| drethelin | climate change is a paper tiger | 13:13 |
| FourFire | it's no danger to pretty much anyone right now, but if we donæt do anything about it, then a lot of people are going to be dying/moving in the 50s, onwards | 13:14 |
| eudoxia | the way i see it, there's two competing trends: ephemeralization (leads to MNT) and resource exhaustion (leads to war etc.), and i don't really know which trend will overtake the other | 13:14 |
| Houshalter | " list of major governments in 1900 would probably put the Ottoman Empire or Austria-Hungary well ahead of the relatively young United States. Citing the good track record of the US alone, and not all governments of equal apparent stability at the start of the same time period, is purest survivorship bias." | 13:14 |
| Houshalter | http://lesswrong.com/lw/hy/riskfree_bonds_arent/ | 13:14 |
| eudoxia | although to be fair the world3 business-as-usual scenario has more or less been on track with reality and leads to mass die-offs | 13:14 |
| drethelin | I'm with taleb and scott adams | 13:15 |
| drethelin | slow moving predicted risks are not what you should be worreid abou | 13:15 |
| kanzure | "lose control" you never had control | 13:18 |
| eudoxia | heh | 13:18 |
| FourFire | eudoxia, the problem with ephemeralization is that a lot of the gains are lost to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox | 13:19 |
| FourFire | suddenly people can do really expensive stuff, for the same cost as doing earlier stuff | 13:20 |
| FourFire | and sometimes that expensive stuff is wasteful or even harmful to other resources | 13:20 |
| FourFire | drethelin, is AI "slow moving"? | 13:22 |
| FourFire | meh I'm giving it up for the day, not in a contructive mood | 13:23 |
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| drethelin | AI is not slow moving | 13:23 |
| drethelin | neither is a bio engineered pandemic or an asteroid impact | 13:23 |
| juri_ | lets get working on AI, improved biology, and leaving the planet then. | 13:26 |
| drethelin | "improved biology' | 13:26 |
| drethelin | the problem there is working on improved biology is exactly the sort of thing that would let someone make SmallAidsPox | 13:27 |
| juri_ | AI -> drone warfare && rockets -> ICBMs. we've survived those. | 13:28 |
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| archels | http://www.nrel.gov/news/features/feature_detail.cfm/feature_id=19532 | 13:32 |
| archels | "C02" | 13:32 |
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| kanzure | c0rw|timetravel: greetings | 13:35 |
| c0rw|timetravel | hello kanzure | 13:35 |
| c0rw|timetravel | hello transhumanists also | 13:35 |
| eudoxia | hello | 13:36 |
| kanzure | are you defecting | 13:38 |
| c0rw|timetravel | who, me? | 13:40 |
| c0rw|timetravel | defecting against what ? | 13:41 |
| kanzure | lesswrong | 13:45 |
| c0rw|timetravel | ... they don't like h+ ? | 13:45 |
| kanzure | it's an existential risk to them | 13:46 |
| c0rw|timetravel | from here i don't see how (yet) | 13:48 |
| drethelin | do you mean they view it as an existential risk | 13:49 |
| kanzure | yes | 13:49 |
| drethelin | or that the H+ cocmmunity is an existential risk to the lesswrong community | 13:49 |
| kanzure | no | 13:49 |
| kanzure | because both communities are equally ineffective | 13:50 |
| drethelin | sure but communities that share mindspace are probably the biggest threats to each other's xontinued existence | 13:50 |
| c0rw|timetravel | no | 13:50 |
| c0rw|timetravel | subculture archipelago says they're not | 13:50 |
| c0rw|timetravel | nothing prevents anyone from being in both, and more or less involved with either | 13:52 |
| drethelin | it's not about prevention | 13:53 |
| kanzure | er, right, i am just teasing you | 13:53 |
| c0rw|timetravel | incompatible goals? | 13:53 |
| kanzure | yes kinda | 13:54 |
| c0rw|timetravel | i don't see how, but then i just arrived here | 13:55 |
| kanzure | aren't you c0rwin? | 13:56 |
| c0rw|timetravel | yes | 13:56 |
| kanzure | excuse me, i mean c0rw1n | 13:56 |
| c0rw|timetravel | i use c0rw|timetravel for when i might respond in channels to things said hours ago | 13:57 |
| kanzure | time travel is pretty dangerous | 13:57 |
| c0rw|timetravel | LOL | 13:58 |
| drethelin | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hG5I-54Yu4o' | 13:58 |
| drethelin | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hG5I-54Yu4o | 13:59 |
| kanzure | .title | 13:59 |
| yoleaux | I *WILL* MESS WITH TIME - Rick and Morty Season 2 Episode 1 - YouTube | 13:59 |
| kanzure | i was thinking more like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJRh-37H4fA | 13:59 |
| kanzure | or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-e640rn8S4 | 14:02 |
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| c0rw1n | ... what is it that h+ wants to do that lesswrong would find an x-risk ? | 14:18 |
| kanzure | intelligence augmentation | 14:18 |
| kanzure | nootropics | 14:18 |
| c0rw1n | *blink* *blink* how do they NOT want that ? | 14:18 |
| kanzure | recursive self-improvement | 14:18 |
| kanzure | what? they think that's the fucken end of the world. | 14:19 |
| drethelin | kanzure as always you are being a jackass | 14:19 |
| kanzure | go on | 14:19 |
| drethelin | in general Lesswrong approves of nootropics and intelligence augmentation | 14:19 |
| drethelin | IN HUMANS | 14:19 |
| drethelin | because the timescales for recursive self improvement are long enough that if something crazy starts happening you can react | 14:20 |
| kanzure | nobody at lesswrong strongly believes that recursive self-improvement is particularly safe in humans but not ai | 14:20 |
| drethelin | really? | 14:20 |
| drethelin | I would best most people would if you asked them | 14:20 |
| drethelin | bet | 14:20 |
| kanzure | because humans are friendly....? | 14:20 |
| drethelin | because humans are SLWO | 14:20 |
| drethelin | SLOW | 14:20 |
| kanzure | so something like "humans are so slow that no amount of recursive self-improvement would fix that slowness"? | 14:21 |
| drethelin | humans are not capable of recursive self improvement to the same extent as digital entities | 14:21 |
| c0rw1n | .. yet ... | 14:21 |
| drethelin | "yet" | 14:21 |
| drethelin | there is no yet about it | 14:21 |
| drethelin | at the point where humans can recursively self improve as fast as a totally digital intelligence they will no longer be humans | 14:21 |
| c0rw1n | ( this is *begging* to go into "is an Em an human" isn't it ) | 14:21 |
| kanzure | that's just semantics | 14:21 |
| drethelin | like talking about a cheetah that can outrun a rocket | 14:21 |
| c0rw1n | yeah | 14:21 |
| kanzure | nobody cares if they are human | 14:21 |
| kanzure | and why can't my rocket cheetah count? | 14:22 |
| drethelin | because it's the rocket that's fast | 14:22 |
| kanzure | ethics board said no, that's why i left to start my super zoo | 14:22 |
| drethelin | if you strap a human to a recurisvely improving computer | 14:22 |
| drethelin | it's the computer you should be scare of | 14:22 |
| kanzure | strapped a rocket to a cheetah but then this happened http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/familyguy/images/1/19/Chester_Cheetah.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20090907190317 | 14:22 |
| Houshalter | you can tie a rocket to the back of a cheetah, but it kills the cheetah | 14:22 |
| drethelin | consider how long it takes to run ONE experiment on human improvement | 14:22 |
| c0rw1n | in the space of possible goals to have, humans generally cluster around a pretty tiny place | 14:22 |
| drethelin | humans can't install extra ram | 14:23 |
| c0rw1n | machines, well, mumble murgle clippy | 14:23 |
| drethelin | they can't control multiple bodies simultaneously | 14:23 |
| drethelin | or network | 14:23 |
| c0rw1n | yet | 14:23 |
| kanzure | drethelin: i think that you seem to have a broken definition of improvement | 14:23 |
| drethelin | kanzure: ? | 14:23 |
| kanzure | small improvements can lead to other improvements | 14:24 |
| drethelin | yes | 14:24 |
| drethelin | and? | 14:24 |
| kanzure | perhaps your argument is "humans would take so long tha ti expect that ai stuff will happen before anything interesting happens"? | 14:24 |
| kanzure | *that i expect | 14:24 |
| drethelin | yeah pretty much | 14:24 |
| drethelin | human generations are slow | 14:25 |
| kanzure | you don't need human generations | 14:25 |
| drethelin | you don't ALWAYS need them | 14:25 |
| kanzure | did i ever mention my nootropics plans | 14:25 |
| drethelin | I assume they're absurd | 14:25 |
| drethelin | but right now our most promising avenue for understand intelligence and intelligent enhancement is genetic | 14:25 |
| drethelin | I think | 14:25 |
| drethelin | in which field you need generations to test innovations | 14:26 |
| kanzure | microbial nootropics | 14:26 |
| drethelin | even if we learned to clone von neumann | 14:26 |
| drethelin | he'd still have to grow up | 14:26 |
| c0rw1n | nootropics can only marginally augment flesh capabilities, even if it's like one or two OOMs, digital would go so so much further | 14:26 |
| kanzure | selection for which microbes migrate to certain brain regions | 14:26 |
| kanzure | c0rw1n: yes but we don't have human brain emulations yet, so..... | 14:26 |
| c0rw1n | inorite ;_; | 14:26 |
| kanzure | i'm also not convinced about upper limits of flesh capabilities | 14:27 |
| kanzure | there's a lot of stupid brain mass | 14:27 |
| drethelin | so my belief is basically, there are two main "steps" to recursive intelligence improvement | 14:27 |
| drethelin | hardware and software | 14:27 |
| drethelin | code optimization and hardware improvements | 14:27 |
| drethelin | in both of these humans are harder to work in than digital entities | 14:27 |
| kanzure | so far digital entities haven't been made yet | 14:28 |
| kanzure | be practical | 14:28 |
| drethelin | ok fair point | 14:28 |
| drethelin | but code optimization is still a thing we sometimes do | 14:28 |
| kanzure | see http://diyhpl.us/wiki/projects/human-like-cognitive-abilities/ | 14:28 |
| drethelin | (when we're not relying on having more processing power than we know what to do with) | 14:28 |
| drethelin | but a human's ability to access and modify his code is negligible | 14:28 |
| drethelin | compared to a theoretical AI's | 14:28 |
| kanzure | yes compared to some imaginary bullshit, it can be whatever | 14:29 |
| kanzure | this doesn't help me | 14:29 |
| drethelin | I'm not trying to help you? | 14:29 |
| kanzure | no, i mean comparison to AIs doesn't help me | 14:29 |
| drethelin | again | 14:29 |
| drethelin | I'm not ttying to help you | 14:29 |
| drethelin | I'm trying to explain why lesswrong mostly doesn't give a shit about recursive human self improvement | 14:29 |
| kanzure | you were trying to argue about why self-modifying humans could never go fast enough | 14:29 |
| kanzure | why wouldn't a self-modifying human be faster at making accurate human brain emulations than a non-self-modifying human? | 14:30 |
| kanzure | hmph | 14:30 |
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| drethelin | ?? | 14:30 |
| drethelin | because a human can't self-modify fast | 14:30 |
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| c0rw1n | why emulate a human brainin a human brain ... | 14:30 |
| kanzure | c0rw1n: because emulating a mouse brain is less useful | 14:30 |
| drethelin | if a human comes up with an improvement to the humman equivalent of RAM architecture | 14:30 |
| kanzure | drethelin: i don't think that's true; the design-test-build cycle can be significantly shortened. | 14:30 |
| drethelin | he still can't exactly slot that into his own brain saffely | 14:30 |
| drethelin | the way a computer can | 14:31 |
| kanzure | that's true, you need sandboxing, but so what | 14:31 |
| c0rw1n | yeah, would need backups | 14:31 |
| drethelin | so that slows things down A LOT! | 14:31 |
| kanzure | compared to something that doesn't exist yet :-) | 14:31 |
| drethelin | neither does your theoretical bullshit enhanced human | 14:31 |
| drethelin | so cut the sass | 14:31 |
| kanzure | nootropics exist (although they are all weak) | 14:31 |
| drethelin | weak enough that we only have anecdotes for net beneficial effects | 14:32 |
| kanzure | so you're not too hot on the microbial nootropics plan, eh? | 14:32 |
| drethelin | no I like it | 14:32 |
| drethelin | I'm in favor of human enhancement | 14:32 |
| kanzure | hm. | 14:32 |
| drethelin | I'm just not worired about it going recursive and creating someone smart enough to take over the world | 14:32 |
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| kanzure | i think a person could already take over the world, without the assistance of a nootropic | 14:33 |
| c0rw1n | ... 'finil and 'cetam seem to work preeetty well doe't they ( but ok, no order-of-magnitude improvement there though ) | 14:33 |
| c0rw1n | i t'm really not sure | 14:33 |
| c0rw1n | *i'm | 14:33 |
| drethelin | depends on your definition of take over | 14:33 |
| kanzure | c0rw1n: my definition of a minimally-viable nootropic is a nootropic that endows you with the ability to make a better nootropic | 14:33 |
| kanzure | it's an escape-velocity nootropic thing | 14:33 |
| drethelin | people clearly can do stuff like be Stalin or Mao | 14:33 |
| drethelin | hmm | 14:33 |
| c0rw1n | heh, then feed finil and cetam to a bunch of pharma researchers? | 14:34 |
| drethelin | who are the biggest names who use nootropics? | 14:34 |
| kanzure | hell yeah | 14:34 |
| kanzure | drethelin: erdos | 14:34 |
| drethelin | heh | 14:34 |
| drethelin | more like erdosseral | 14:34 |
| drethelin | adderalldos | 14:34 |
| kanzure | oh come on be nice | 14:34 |
| drethelin | hmm | 14:34 |
| kanzure | sounds like a children's story | 14:34 |
| drethelin | anyway I said use not used | 14:34 |
| drethelin | does musk or tao use modafinil? | 14:35 |
| c0rw1n | who knows | 14:35 |
| kanzure | musk just never sleeps instead | 14:35 |
| drethelin | imagine if people are right about how important sleep is | 14:35 |
| drethelin | and he would actually justs be wway smarter | 14:35 |
| drethelin | if he slept 8 hours | 14:35 |
| kanzure | i don't know if it's smartness that he needs more of | 14:36 |
| drethelin | fair | 14:36 |
| kanzure | i guess it would always be nice eh | 14:36 |
| drethelin | who's the elon musk of biotech | 14:36 |
| kanzure | craig venter :-( | 14:36 |
| delinquentme | me | 14:38 |
| kanzure | you don't have the cheeks for it | 14:38 |
| delinquentme | someone touch muh butt? | 14:39 |
| delinquentme | roflmao | 14:39 |
| delinquentme | sorry idk why my OKC persona crossed w the transhumanist | 14:39 |
| kanzure | nah that's how i setup mine | 14:39 |
| drethelin | hmm | 14:40 |
| drethelin | I wonder if I should be more openly transhumanist on okcupid | 14:40 |
| kanzure | my profile is... definitely transhumanist. | 14:40 |
| kanzure | http://web.archive.org/web/20150625162512/http://www.okcupid.com/profile/kanzure | 14:40 |
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| delinquentme | I want to buy a cell line . but not pay the commercial cost | 14:50 |
| kanzure | erdos seems like an alright role model | 14:50 |
| delinquentme | how do I do this? | 14:50 |
| delinquentme | or at least ... I'd like to defer the cost | 14:50 |
| drethelin | you could go to a university or somethin | 14:50 |
| drethelin | ask a grad student to breed you some cells | 14:50 |
| kanzure | how can you not afford a cell line, i thought you had a $200k budget | 14:50 |
| c0rw1n | how are the commercial ones manufactured ? | 14:50 |
| drethelin | pay for the growth media and so on | 14:50 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: why do you like on your profile? | 15:00 |
| justanotheruser | *lie | 15:01 |
| drethelin | gives romantic partners the fun of uncovering the truth | 15:01 |
| c0rw1n | lulz | 15:01 |
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| justanotheruser | Drugs Never | 15:01 |
| drethelin | probably because the standard definition of Drugs | 15:02 |
| drethelin | is like "marijuana and cocaine" | 15:02 |
| drethelin | and not "noopept and theanine" | 15:02 |
| kanzure | because "i have 200 empty adderall bottles" wasn't any of the answer options | 15:03 |
| chris_99 | haha | 15:03 |
| justanotheruser | do you put them on a shelf like a frat boy puts liquer bottles in a shelf? | 15:04 |
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| juri_ | with all that's wrovg with me, i now store smaller parts of laptops (screws and such) in perscription bottles. | 15:05 |
| kanzure | no clue | 15:05 |
| c0rw1n | that's a good idea | 15:05 |
| c0rw1n | prevents loss of screws and such | 15:05 |
| kanzure | you can also just use sticky tape | 15:07 |
| drethelin | prescription bottles are actually a really good little container | 15:07 |
| drethelin | transparent and they won't all open accidentally if you drop em | 15:07 |
| c0rw1n | yeah, seems like a perfectly good storage method | 15:09 |
| c0rw1n | nothing wrong with it, nor with you for using it | 15:10 |
| delinquentme | http://www.dorkly.com/post/75600/watch-ronda-rousey-gush-about-her-cartoon-crush-vegeta # off topic ish | 15:10 |
| kanzure | vegeta is completely on topic | 15:10 |
| c0rw1n | how so ? | 15:11 |
| justanotheruser | vegeta is transhuman | 15:12 |
| kanzure | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgaYv37stMk | 15:13 |
| kanzure | he's hilarious | 15:13 |
| drethelin | vegeta isn't a huma1 | 15:13 |
| drethelin | human | 15:13 |
| kanzure | aww it didn't show the gorilla part | 15:13 |
| justanotheruser | drethelin: Yeah he's not human, he's transhuman, that's what I'm saiyan | 15:15 |
| c0rw1n | >.< | 15:15 |
| drethelin | ughghghghghghghghg | 15:15 |
| kanzure | plus his scouter | 15:17 |
| drethelin | google glass power level over 1500$ | 15:17 |
| c0rw1n | BWAHAHA | 15:17 |
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| nmz787_i | $48k for post-halcyon-tech portable SEM (small enough to fit in large backpack) | 16:02 |
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| eudoxia | oh my god | 16:07 |
| eudoxia | i was reading old logs | 16:07 |
| eudoxia | http://gnusha.org/logs/hplusroadmap-logs/2012-07-19.log | 16:07 |
| eudoxia | kanzure: was the guy who contacted you about pyphantomjs this guy https://github.com/san-mate | 16:07 |
| c0rw1n | yeah, what timestamp pls ? | 16:07 |
| c0rw1n | oh, not for me | 16:08 |
| c0rw1n | 'k | 16:08 |
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| kanzure | not sure | 16:13 |
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| eudoxia | well, i did not know him in 2012 | 16:15 |
| eudoxia | but if he was that person then he was employed where i work | 16:15 |
| eudoxia | what a small world huh | 16:15 |
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| nmz787_i | so ibidi makes a disposable fludic that almost would work for the TdT synthesis... | 16:33 |
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| nmz787_i | http://ibidi.com/xtproducts/en/ibidi-Labware/Flow-Chambers/m-Slide-Membrane-ibiPore-Flow | 16:34 |
| nmz787_i | simpore says they could help me build a similar device using their nanoporous product instead of the microporous one | 16:34 |
| nmz787_i | (i've talked to simpore about this before, years ago, since they were in Rochester) | 16:36 |
| kanzure | acetaminophen-producing bacteria https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10000026 | 16:49 |
| CaptHindsight | nmz787: do you know the range of pore sizes of the nanopore versions? | 16:50 |
| CaptHindsight | is there more than just the 0.5um? | 16:51 |
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| nmz787_i | weel the 0.5 is a microporous | 16:54 |
| nmz787_i | they can tune the size from like 5nm up to 100s I think | 16:54 |
| nmz787_i | with variation in size increasing with increased target pore size | 16:54 |
| nmz787_i | so if we wanted a 20nm pore on avg... we'd get a spread from probably 10nm to 30nm in range | 16:55 |
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| nmz787_i | so well within oligo diameter, and well away from enzyme size | 16:55 |
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| fenn | so steve said something worrying about my complaining about the mouse brain ATUM/EM scan thing in nature the other day | 18:00 |
| fenn | i said "it's not very useful because there isn't even an entire cell in the scanned volume" and he was like "good. that means more time to develop FAI theory in the small window between developing enough credibility to raise funding and the emergence of neuromorphic AI' | 18:01 |
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| fenn | thus putting ${people who want to understand the brain} into conflict with ${people who want to save the world from AI} | 18:02 |
| c0rw1n | "save the world FROM ai" group is already a roadkill of history, like feudalists and communists. | 18:03 |
| c0rw1n | Might be getting somewhere on "save the world USING AI" , yes. | 18:03 |
| fenn | i don't get what these math people think they are doing, when they have no direct experience with how an AI works | 18:05 |
| fenn | (because there aren't any in existence afaik) | 18:06 |
| fenn | there is a long roadkill of history of people pretending they know what AI will be like | 18:06 |
| c0rw1n | looks like a standard fallacy there fenn | 18:06 |
| c0rw1n | we already have a lot of AI tech | 18:06 |
| c0rw1n | not AGI yet, sure | 18:06 |
| fenn | it looks just as bad as the boundless optimism of mccarthy in the 70s with regards to symbolic ai | 18:07 |
| fenn | "we don't understand how motivation works but let's make lots of predictions about it anyway" | 18:08 |
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| c0rw1n | don't patternmatch to that. It'll be neuromorphic AI. Maybe not with the sort of NNs we have now, maybe we'll need finer values than just one input and one output numbers per neuron per tick, but it'll happen and it'll happen there. | 18:10 |
| fenn | uh 1960s i mean | 18:10 |
| fenn | pre-1969-singularity :P | 18:11 |
| fenn | Moravec explains, "Their initial promises to DARPA had been much too optimistic. Of course, what they delivered stopped considerably short of that. But they felt they couldn't in their next proposal promise less than in the first one, so they promised more." | 18:12 |
| c0rw1n | lol @ the dance of incentives | 18:12 |
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| fenn | i'm pretty impressed with the capabilities of RNN and deep belief networks, but i don't see anyone combining them into agents that try to actually do anything at all, they are just used for prediction and classification | 18:14 |
| c0rw1n | nah, there is much scarier than that | 18:14 |
| c0rw1n | tiling NNs in cortical-like structures | 18:15 |
| fenn | what's the difference between that and a deep belief network | 18:15 |
| c0rw1n | could well make a full brain with those, idk that deep belief networks are that neuropmorphic | 18:16 |
| c0rw1n | but then idk deep belief nets so idk | 18:17 |
| fenn | i think they are pretty similar in layout, it's just a matter of parameters | 18:17 |
| c0rw1n | oh. ok then | 18:18 |
| * c0rw1n goes google for DBNs | 18:18 | |
| fenn | there is a ton of other biological squishy stuff that probably matters too, but apparently it's not as important as the basic architecture because deep belief networks actually work | 18:18 |
| fenn | it's just a multilayer neural network | 18:18 |
| c0rw1n | nah, i mean .. ok you know how the visual cortex is a bunched-up plane of hypercolumns of neurons | 18:19 |
| c0rw1n | and RNNs doing visual works like classification are not | 18:20 |
| fenn | like i said, it's just parameters | 18:20 |
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| fenn | you can set your minicolumn size to equal the human brain or not | 18:20 |
| c0rw1n | i think the structure itself is what's important (and i might well be completely, spectacularly wrong) | 18:21 |
| fenn | sure it's important but that doesn't mean only one parameterization will be able to do things in the world | 18:22 |
| c0rw1n | oh, agreed | 18:22 |
| fenn | supposedly autistic people have smaller minicolumns in larger numbers, and some of them are extremely talented | 18:22 |
| c0rw1n | 's just, we have a model that we know already works (natural brains), so let's begin by replicating that and then see how to optimize it | 18:23 |
| c0rw1n | also i want muh upload ^_^ | 18:23 |
| fenn | sure i agree that's the best approach because the machine will at least be understandable to humans | 18:24 |
| * fenn looks at http://minicolumn.org/publications/autism-pamphlet.html | 18:24 | |
| nmz787_i | .tell fourfire why not just use a salt-water algae? | 18:26 |
| yoleaux | nmz787_i: I'll pass your message to fourfire. | 18:26 |
| fenn | the ethylene thing is cute because it sidesteps the "how do we collect all these tiny things that clog filters" problem | 18:26 |
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| fenn | removing water from the algae culture was the hardest part of the process | 18:27 |
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| fenn | nmz787_i: cyanobacteria already grow in salt water | 18:27 |
| fenn | fourfire was just doom-mongering | 18:27 |
| nmz787_i | fenn: the obvious answer is to engineer a lipid membrane-pump (system) | 18:28 |
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| nmz787_i | so there was an xray sensor guy at the conference (i spent all afternoon in the vendor area, wow, I wish the local mall had a tech wing like that) | 18:30 |
| nmz787_i | and I saw the opamp next to the Silicon pin-diode; | 18:30 |
| nmz787_i | and he told me they use peltier to cool the sensor and FET, but nothing else | 18:30 |
| nmz787_i | which is pretty cool | 18:30 |
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| nmz787_i | and then SPI chem suppliers had a self-contained battery-powered microfluidic pump with a SiNi window over the microchannel (in PDMS) and after bonding the window to the microchannel, they put a 3 micron hole in the SiNi window... then put the whole thing in an SEM/TEM | 18:32 |
| nmz787_i | I guess SEM | 18:32 |
| fenn | you can do x-ray spectroscopy with that sensor? | 18:32 |
| nmz787_i | and he said the surface tension was enough to keep the water/liquid from escaping, and that evaporation wasn't enough to foul the e-beam or imaging/xray analysis | 18:32 |
| nmz787_i | fenn: oh yeah, PIN diodes have a thickness corresponding with the energy of xrays | 18:33 |
| nmz787_i | I didn't think of a peltier to cool it though | 18:33 |
| nmz787_i | the older alternatives were SiLi which have been superseded by SDD (silicon drift detector) | 18:34 |
| nmz787_i | but PIN are common for handheld xrf spectrometers | 18:34 |
| nmz787_i | (he said) | 18:34 |
| nmz787_i | just slower | 18:34 |
| nmz787_i | and don't /need/ cooling with LN2 | 18:34 |
| nmz787_i | (as SiLi and SDD do) | 18:34 |
| nmz787_i | kanzure: wanna buy me a $48k mochii SEM? | 18:35 |
| nmz787_i | (USA made)... or a 70k / 120k (comes with edx) larger korean one? | 18:36 |
| nmz787_i | 2 week lead time on either | 18:36 |
| nmz787_i | http://www.coxem.com/ds1_1.html | 18:36 |
| nmz787_i | the mochii is small enough to fit in a backpack, while the coxem is not | 18:38 |
| nmz787_i | but it could fit into a compact car | 18:38 |
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| nmz787_i | .title http://www.google.com/patents/US8598527 | 18:57 |
| yoleaux | Patent US8598527 - Scanning transmission electron microscopy - Google Patents | 18:57 |
| nmz787_i | they immediately start to talk about DNA sequencing | 18:57 |
| nmz787_i | "Larger acceptance angle may improve resolution. Because of this relationship between the acceptance angle and resolution of STEM 10, the acceptance angle can be selected based on the desired resolution. For example, if 1 Ångström resolution at 100 kilovolts is desired, it may be desirable to have at least about 30 milliradians acceptance half-angle, or even at least about 40 milliradians acceptance half-angle. In one example, single-atom | 19:03 |
| nmz787_i | resolution—namely resolution at least as good as about 0.3 nanometers and in some instances at least as good as about 0.15 nanometers—may be desirable for a DNA-sequencing application. However, with an angular range that is unnecessarily high, current may be wasted undesirably. Once a suitable accelerating voltage is chosen, the desired resolution may determine the acceptance angle of objective lens100." | 19:03 |
| nmz787_i | Owner name: MOCHII, INC. (D/B/A VOXA), WASHINGTON | 19:04 |
| nmz787_i | hrmm, i can't find any further info... I almost want to go back tomorrow | 19:05 |
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| nmz787_i | .wik precession electrondiffraction | 19:12 |
| yoleaux | nmz787_i: Sorry, that command (.wik) crashed. | 19:12 |
| nmz787_i | .wik precession electron diffraction | 19:12 |
| yoleaux | "Precession Electron Diffraction (PED) is a specialized method to collect electron diffraction patterns in a transmission electron microscope (TEM). By rotating (precessing) a tilted incident electron beam around the central axis of the microscope, a PED pattern is formed by integration over a collection of diffraction conditions." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precession_Electron_Diffraction | 19:12 |
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| nmz787_i | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoUPJSaQdDc | 19:25 |
| yoleaux | SemGlu - a vacuum compatible, electron-cured adhesive. - YouTube | 19:25 |
| nmz787_i | now that is a cool video | 19:26 |
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| kanzure | fenn: i don't think you were really that surprised that steve wants to get ai first | 19:32 |
| kanzure | is that really surprising | 19:42 |
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| nmz787 | here are some papers http://diyhpl.us/~nmz787/M&M%202015/72437/TOC.html | 20:11 |
| nmz787 | 1227 to be exact | 20:11 |
| c0rw1n | so much to learn, so little time ;_; | 20:12 |
| nmz787 | voxa/mochii http://diyhpl.us/~nmz787/M&M%202015/7337/0009.pdf | 20:13 |
| c0rw1n | ... but then if they're all like 2pgs long, that list would not take a lifetime to read :3 | 20:14 |
| nmz787 | "This low voltage microscope has features that bring accessible and on-demand EM imaging into fields and laboratories where EM was previously hindered by form factor, complexity, and cost. Among these features are small size and light weight (0.25m tall, light enough to carry in a suitcase); user-friendly native wireless tablet interface; multi- and distance-user capabilities (connection to unlimited client nodes), exceedingly low power ... | 20:14 |
| nmz787 | ... consumption (by virtue of lowpower magnetic-electrostatic optics), and an integrated metal evaporator for easy sample preparation (only one pump-down cycle to image). We expect the cost to own and operate a MochiiTM microscope to be a fraction of the cost of typical EM’s with similar imaging performance due to its low power consumption, simple design, and commoditized user-replaceable consumables." | 20:15 |
| nmz787 | see that one seems to actually be split over a couple at least http://diyhpl.us/~nmz787/M&M%202015/7337/0157.pdf | 20:16 |
| nmz787 | http://diyhpl.us/~nmz787/M&M%202015/7337/1073.pdf | 20:18 |
| nmz787 | "Democratizing the Micro-Scale: A Simplified, Miniaturized SEM for K-12 and Informal Student Scientists" | 20:18 |
| nmz787 | they all went to Evergreen :O | 20:18 |
| nmz787 | ? | 20:19 |
| c0rw1n | ( huh who what where ? ) | 20:19 |
| nmz787 | 3/4 | 20:19 |
| nmz787 | last one | 20:19 |
| nmz787 | huh, and a HiveBio mention | 20:19 |
| c0rw1n | so that's at least 3 papers on the Mochii™ ? | 20:20 |
| nmz787 | I think that is/was the seattle biohackerspace | 20:20 |
| nmz787 | yeah | 20:20 |
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| nmz787 | huh, LS Own is on hivebio.org/people/ | 20:27 |
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| xtalmath | how much does that mochii cost? | 20:38 |
| nmz787 | supposedly $48k | 20:38 |
| xtalmath | I wonder how it works without vacuum? | 20:38 |
| nmz787 | it has 2 vac pump | 20:39 |
| nmz787 | 1 turbo inside, and 1 rough outside | 20:39 |
| xtalmath | ok | 20:39 |
| xtalmath | how much vacuum is needed for SEM in fact? what level of vacuum did the first SEM's have? | 20:40 |
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| nmz787 | they used higher accelerating voltages in the early days before lens design got better i guess | 20:41 |
| nmz787 | but they had oil diffusion back then, which is just hot and oil can deposit into the sample chamber after a lot of use | 20:41 |
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| xtalmath | http://www.directorypatent.com/GB/511204-a.html | 21:03 |
| xtalmath | I wonder if something like kelvin water dropper + millikan experiment like combination could be used to build a "electron droplet" microscope in atmosphere... ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelvin_water_dropper , it amplifies the voltage difference, until a saturation point where the droplets bounce upwards and seek out the droplets of the other side... | 21:06 |
| xtalmath | there is variations with a recirculating pump | 21:07 |
| xtalmath | might be fun to make a slow droplet accelerator, and lets the droplets collide? | 21:19 |
| xtalmath | how does an electron microscope work on insulating materials? http://www.toyo.co.jp/file/pdf/spm/files/agi/5991-0736EN.pdf | 21:57 |
| xtalmath | is that like pure reflection mode? | 21:58 |
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| --- Log closed Tue Aug 04 00:00:30 2015 | ||
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