2015-12-12.log

--- Log opened Sat Dec 12 00:00:35 2015
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-!- Topic for ##hplusroadmap: biohacking, nootropics, transhumanism, open hardware | sponsored by lobsters everywhere, banned by the Federal Death Administration (5 times) | this channel is LOGGED: http://gnusha.org/logs | http://diyhpl.us/wiki | "ray kurzweil is a pessimist" - george church02:09
-!- Topic set by kanzure [~kanzure@unaffiliated/kanzure] [Wed May 20 12:46:25 2015]02:09
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FourFireAdrianG, anything over 50 Mbit/s is considered fast03:24
FourFireanything under 10Mbit/s is considered slow03:24
fennbreaking up mars seems like a waste of a good planet, and hard to believe that the martians will let that happen03:35
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fennmercury seems like a better choice because of its proximity to the sun allows for more industry and cheaper energy03:35
fennif you are lifting astronomical quantities of mass, energy is the limiting factor03:36
fennand forming into solar reflectors etc03:36
fenngeneration of antimatter and exotic matter will be the largest energy market in an expansionist scenario, else running computers in a VR scenario03:38
fennantimatter or lasers for interstellar travel03:41
fennit's hard to imagine a solar system with enough meat humans to use up all of the asteroid belt and a few moons and still not have enough habitable space03:44
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AdrianGfenn: why is it hard04:31
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JayDuggerWith that many people, I (not fenn) find it hard to imagine someone wouldn't have come up with a convincing argument for self-restraint.04:43
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maakuFourFire: hahahahahaah. you are for sure from scandinavia05:15
maaku"under 10Mbit/s is considered slow" <--- good luck getting that in *sililcion valley* of all places05:16
FourFiremaaku, why is 10MBit/s fast?05:16
maakurealistically 3-6Mbps is the best you can hope for in some relatively developed suburban areas05:17
FourFireseriously, doesn't google fiber exist?05:17
maakuin Kansas05:17
maakuno, I used to live close enough to see the Google campus from the roof of my building. no google fiber.05:17
maakuif theyve deployed it, it beats me where05:17
FourFireYeah, but all the important places where stuff gets done, like universities have decent internet right?05:18
maakuthe plus side of being in california is sub-ms latency to most services however05:18
FourFireIt seems so paradoxal that that country can have made so much progress for the world and still be so backwards :s05:18
maakuFourFire: oh yeah of course. universities have their own dark fiber internet network05:18
maakuFourFire: US of A is a big place05:19
FourFireYep05:19
maakualso, entrenched interests ... we got the internet first, and those infrastructure companies have had a monopoly since. they don't profit from infrastructure improvements. more bandwidth = more costs for them05:19
JayDuggerMaaku has it right. USA is large and has low "overall" population density.05:20
rhaps0dy>sub-ms latency05:21
rhaps0dyDamn.05:21
maakuthen again my coworker is in downtown SF and gets uncapped 500Mbps symmetric (1Gbps total) ... so there's a lot of variance05:23
maakuif you have cable you can get much faster service, but are sharing a line with a whole city block, so it depends on how much of a data hog your neighbors are05:23
maakui wouldn't want to be my neighbors05:24
JayDuggerThe distribution is very uneven, as maaku says.05:25
Viper168yeah I try not to be an asshole but that bandwidth would be mien05:25
Viper168all mien05:25
JayDuggerThat would be up to your ISP in practice. Being the first kid on your block means it is all yours, but not after everyone else signs up.05:26
Viper168I mean via hogging05:27
Viper168:P05:27
JayDugger.wa United States population density05:27
yoleauxUnited States: population density: 35.2 people per square kilometer (world rank: 179th) (2015 estimate); Unit conversions: 3.52×10⁻⁵ people per square meter; 91.1 people per square mile; Corresponding quantity: Area per person:: 0.011 square miles per person: 306000 square feet per person05:28
JayDugger(WA sources that from the UN and the CIA.)05:28
JayDugger(Varies from 9600 persons/ mile^2 to 1.1 persons / mile^2).05:30
FourFireare these in any way useful: http://i.imgur.com/KYRCr5H.webm ?05:30
FourFireI imagine being able to input more torque converted into more speed would be nice, but I'm uncertain05:31
JayDuggerThat looks as if it would handle hills poorly.05:31
rhaps0dythat looks electrical to me05:36
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FourFireHey, does anyone in here know how to get/make relatively cheap Class C (American)/Grade 3 (European) Hazmat suits, for clarification: it's spray resistant, with air filtration, not SCUBA07:05
FourFire?07:06
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cluckjgrocery bags, duct tape07:09
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poppingtonic.wa 1 ounce in grams07:29
yoleauxconvert 1 oz (ounce) to grams: 28.35 grams; Additional conversion: 0.02835 kg (kilograms); Comparisons as mass: ~0.49 × type 1 tennis ball mass (56 to 59 g); ~0.62 × maximum golf ball mass (~1.6 oz); ~1.9 × mass of an empty 12-ounce aluminum soda can (~15 g); Corresponding quantities: Weight w of a body from w = mg:: 278 mN (millinewtons): 27801 dynes: 28 ponds: 0.062 lbf (pounds-force): 0.0019 slugf (slugs-force)07:29
kanzure_.in 67min anti-yudkowsky07:29
yoleauxkanzure_: I'll remind you at 16:36Z07:29
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poppingtonicheh what's that07:31
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kanzure_poppingtonic: well, i have been working on a formulation of why eliezer is wrong for a very long time now. since 2008ish.07:41
kanzure_poppingtonic: would be good for me to write this down into words07:41
kanzure_admittedly my older attempts were insufficiently strong http://heybryan.org/eli.html07:43
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kanzurefooey.07:45
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maakuJayDugger: actually with ATM networks like cable, being the first kid on the block/circuit means it is all yours ;)08:02
kanzurei don't remember why singinst is not militant/activist against ai research.08:06
maakuweren't they, for a while?08:10
maakualso did you not see the movie they advised on, Transcendent or something like that?08:11
kanzurenope didn't see the movie08:11
maakuthere was an actual anti-AI militia in that08:11
kanzuregiven the strength of their beliefs i am not going to accept a fictional militia. i would expect an actual militia.08:11
kanzurewell, not necessarily a militia. i would expect at least something.08:11
kanzurei would also expect them to be way more anti-transhumanist, because of the possibility of someone figuring out super nootropics or whatever08:12
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Diablo-D3[02:09:15] <AdrianG> whats fast internet?08:14
Diablo-D3[02:09:44] <AdrianG> 1gbit?08:14
Diablo-D3aww he lft08:14
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paskykanzure: start such criticism with a summary of what you are criticizing; he's been saying many things about different topics08:33
yoleauxkanzure_: anti-yudkowsky08:36
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JayDuggermaaku Wasn't my experience with it as a customer. I had it all until every one in the building had it.08:56
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kanzurea "magic bullet / silver bullet ai with unlimited intelligence or unlimited power to transform the universe against your will" should be considered unaddressable by threat modeling because the scenario says the definition is an an unlimited (and unlimitable) threat. proposing a mathematical approach to "friendliness" doesn't make the threat suddenly addressable, even when applied voluntarily by some developer to his ai work. i suspect ...09:13
kanzure... that pervasive surveillance and world domination might reduce the likelihood of local development of ai, but even pervasive global surveillance has a non-zero failure rate (or, forms with zero failure would require world-dominating agi anyway, by which point you're back to the other (first) kind of failure mode) -- and pervasive surveillance happens to be a threat that not only is hindered by physics (difficulty of seeing ...09:13
kanzure... everything) but happens to be something that we can actually counteract in our threat models, unlike the unlimited threat definition.09:13
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kanzureoh, well i guess i got the formulation wrong, it's probably more like "an unlimited threat that is unaddressable by anything except unlimitedly powerful friendliness"09:19
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kanzure(e.g. "to address the unlimited threat i propose an unlimited counter-threat.")09:22
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kanzurethere can't be unlimitedly-powerful unlimitedly-invulnerable defense to unlimitedly-powerful unlimitedly-invulnerable threats (otherwise it's nonsense because unlimited/invulnerable becomes meaningless).09:50
kanzurepurpose of threat modeling has never been to offer (unlimited) level of reliability or service. high levels of (even exponentially increasing) reliability can be achieved but not provably-unlimited (even post-facto knowledge would not be enough to know whether it was unlimited). their argument next is often "well, we should achieve a mandatory global moratorium on unfriendly ai development, with extremely low moratorium failure rate" ...10:04
kanzure... (but technically all limited versions of friendliness are going to be vulnerable to unlimited threats, including those that arise from the moratorium's non-zero failure rate). next argument i remember was "well, it might buy us a few hundred years" but i'm not convinced that "unlimited threats vs. unlimited defense" is going to suddenly become meaningful in those ~200 years.10:04
kanzurealso, security is not about invulnerable unlimited adversaries10:04
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kanzurevoluntary moratoriums give false sense of security because moratorium participants can't guarantee "friendliness integrity" of a voluntary moratorium (it will fail when attacked (or even infected) by non-moratorium-developed unfriendly ai).10:17
kanzureconvincing everyone on earth to voluntarily join the moratorium can't work by definition, because joining has nothing to do with whether the members are actually-friendly or actually-unfriendly (e.g. same reason why limited-friendliness turns out to be technically unfriendly).10:18
kanzurealso, strangely enough i think a belief about friendliness would betray the privacy of someone's belief about ability to bootstrap unlimited ability from limited ability. this isn't really important, but is a curious thing to note.10:19
kanzurewhat were my complaints about this http://multiverseaccordingtoben.blogspot.com/2010/10/singularity-institutes-scary-idea-and.html10:21
kanzurehmm looks like i wasn't really listening to jrayhawk when he asked http://gnusha.org/logs/2011-07-10.log10:24
kanzureother interesting points in http://gnusha.org/logs/2015-12-11.log10:25
Diablo-D3what are we discussing?10:35
poppingtonichow are the assumptions of decision procedures and agent behaviour incorrect?10:36
kanzurere: unlimited-defense-first scenarios; 1) fails the reasonability test (can't have unlimited defense against unlimited threats), and 2) in absence of unlimited defense, an extremely low but still positive failure rate (failure as in, unfriendly ai takeoff) at best can postpone but cannot eliminate.10:38
kanzureactually the metaphysics around origins of unlimited-invulnerability are quite strange in this headspace (specifically, you can (supposedly) have unlimited-defense-first bootstrapping on its own but for some reason an unlimited-threat cannot still bootstrap itself? must not have been unlimited then, huh.)10:38
kanzurere: limited-defense-first scenarios: see again "can postpone but cannot eliminate" because unlimited-threat definition is stronger.10:38
kanzureDiablo-D3: eh i am just writing down some criticism against eliezer yudkowsky's brand of singularitarianism10:39
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kanzurere: "we should postpone as long as humanly possible, and we should get everyone to agree to this"- this is the same thing as the voluntary moratorium argument. and involuntarily moratorium (like through enforcement by unlimited-defense-first (friendly-and-is-first) ai) is rejected by the unlimited-defense-first counterargument above. ((often there have been arguments like "well you wont get friendliness right the first time when ...10:43
kanzure... deploying it!!11one" but i have chosen not to bring that up because better to assume that both sides really do mean friendliness in the argument))10:44
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Diablo-D3kanzure: ahh10:48
Diablo-D3dunno why everyone hates him so much lately10:48
Diablo-D3hes a fiction author10:48
kanzuremost people dislike him because of arrogance or other stupid reasons. that's not important here.10:49
Diablo-D3well, he *did* write a pretty good harry potter fanfic10:50
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kanzurevoluntary moratorium to postpone takeoff has lots of high costs around restriction of technology development and everyone wasting all their time trying to convince everyone to please don't open the box (or whatever the metaphor is these days), i strongly doubt "if we all believe hard enough, none of us will choose to move forward with creating unfriendly ai", especially since unfriendly ai is easier/cheaper to achieve than friendly ai ...10:52
kanzure... despite best efforts otherwise.10:52
Diablo-D3se10:53
Diablo-D3see10:53
Diablo-D3Im of the camp that doesn't 100% believe in the singularity10:53
pompolicis it probable someone would break such moratorium just to prove a point10:54
kanzureDiablo-D3: i have no clue what that means. what would it mean if you did or did not "believe in a singularity"?10:55
poppingtonicwhat's the observable consequence of that belief?10:55
Diablo-D3kanzure: has it been 100% proven that such a thing will occur10:56
Diablo-D3anything that could be possibly described as the singularity10:56
Diablo-D3(since no one even agrees on what it'll look like, just that when it happens, we'll know)10:57
kanzurei have no idea what you are trying to say.10:57
kanzureare you trying to say that recursive improvement is unlikely, impossible, or that a singularity is unrelated?10:58
Diablo-D3I'm saying I'm unconvinced there is a singularity, but not saying its impossible10:58
Diablo-D3it is more likely that humanity continues to travel on the same path it has over the past twenty thousand years10:59
kanzureso there are paths now?10:59
kanzurea singularity doesn't necessarily have anything to do with humanity.10:59
Diablo-D3well, everyone writes about the singularity as if its some technological thing that fundamentally changes what it means to be human11:00
Diablo-D3and I'm not convinced such a thing will exist11:00
kanzuresounds like nonsense11:00
Diablo-D3kanzure: well, this is what I'm saying11:00
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Diablo-D3the singularity _does_ sound like nonsense11:00
kanzureno, what sounds like nonsense is stuff like "fundamentally change what it means to be human". that's not what the definition of a singularity is.11:01
kanzureyesterday i told you to get out if you ascribe to a version of communication where words are meaningless; i was serious.11:01
kanzure*subscribe11:01
Diablo-D3Well, no, the definition of a singularity is a goddamned black hole. I don't know why transhumanists hijacked the word.11:01
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Diablo-D3https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_singularity11:03
Diablo-D3That I will accept as a valid definition of singualrity11:03
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Diablo-D3https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_singularity11:03
Diablo-D3as I will that as well11:03
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Diablo-D3https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity11:03
Diablo-D3but stuff like that? I'm not convinced.11:04
kanzurethere is no reason for you to be convinced if you believe the definition of a singularity is "fundamentally change what it means to be human"11:04
kanzureit's the wrong definition; if you were convinced, that would be even more alarming.11:04
kanzure*even more alarming to me.11:04
kanzure*convinced (by that definition),11:05
Diablo-D3Well, you cant really say its the wrong definition. It is the popular definition, and the one most people use.11:05
Diablo-D3I blame people like Kurzweil for that kind of thinking11:06
Diablo-D3kanzure: how much scifi have you actually read?11:07
Diablo-D3Its always some unlikely thing, like true AI being invented within the next 100 years, or death being cured in the next 100 years11:07
kanzurethe "popular" definition is about recursive improvement takeoff, not about "fundamentally change what it means to be human"11:08
Diablo-D3And then it just becomes some exploration about the sociopolitical implications of such a thing11:08
Diablo-D3kanzure: not really11:08
Diablo-D3thats the less popular definition.11:08
kanzuredamn you tricked me into talking about populists11:09
kanzurei don't care about populists11:10
Diablo-D3kanzure: You know what I think?11:10
kanzurei don't care if you are unconvinced by populist noise. why should i care about that?11:10
Diablo-D3If the singularity is going to happen, it already happened.11:10
kanzureyou are astonishingly hard to talk with11:10
* Diablo-D3 shrugs11:11
kanzureso far the story from you is "so i heard this popular definition of a word you are using, and i wasn't convinced by it, isn't that surprising and interesting and stuff" and the answer is no- there are many misunderstandings that people have about lots of things, and i have no interest in enumerating all of their variations. additionally, this particular misunderstanding of a singularity does not seem to be accidentally insightful or ...11:12
kanzure... anything, it just seems to be a vanilla misunderstanding that doesn't help me at all.11:12
poppingtoniclet's taboo the word "singularity" for now and use something actually descriptive and analytical. The process under discussion right now is an AI that can analyze its own decision procedures, and discover ways to improve them, while still retaining its goal content, or the integrity of the process that maintains its goals.11:13
Diablo-D3poppingtonic: that'd be useful11:13
Diablo-D3singularity is like "the cloud", but for futurists11:13
kanzurecloud refers to generic commoditization of increasingly-easier provisioned remote computation (and sometimes it refers to the interface to generic commodity computation, in which case it can be a "local cloud", but this becomes increasingly meaningless as you reduce the number of machines).11:15
Diablo-D3kanzure: "kind of"11:16
kanzure*increasingly-easily provisioned11:16
Diablo-D3things like clusters have well defined meanings11:16
Diablo-D3but many companies try to use them to mean "highly available shared nothing cluster"11:17
Diablo-D3when most "clouds" are anything but, including the products offered by the companies that try to confuse the costumer into thinking thats what it means11:17
streetyor any service that isn't desktop based11:17
kanzurethe existence of people misusing words does not mean that words are meaningless11:17
Diablo-D3kanzure: I work in this industry, trust me, it has zero meaning11:18
kanzure*especially* after i have given you an exact definition11:18
kanzureand so has poppingtonic11:18
Diablo-D3Yes, and neither of them are industry standard definitions.11:18
kanzureDiablo-D3: dude seriously, don't turn this into a dick measuring contest. i too have worked for many of the cloudiest cloudy initiatives.11:18
Diablo-D3I mean, your definition basically means I can start including bare metal as a cloud service11:19
kanzure((in particular most recently i was unfortunately involved in saas for the live migration of physical and virtual machines from datacenters to 20-30 different clouds. lots of api headaches as you can imagine. i wanted to use libcloud but had to reimplement everything and more.))11:19
kanzures/live/not-quite-live11:20
Diablo-D3My condolences11:20
kanzureall cloud services *do* use bare metal. it's not running on hot air.11:20
Diablo-D3What I meant was, the actual provisioning of bare metal for the customer11:20
kanzurewell it is using hot air, technically. but you know what i meant.11:20
Diablo-D3As in, the customer buying a dedi11:20
kanzuretechnically aws does let you provision dedicated boxen in their cloud, now11:21
Diablo-D3Yeah, wtf is with that11:21
Diablo-D3Is it just a single VM under a hypervisor?11:21
Diablo-D3There is no way in hell thats real bare metal, AWS simply doesn't work that way11:21
Diablo-D3*especially* for the prices they're charging for that11:21
kanzurehttp://www.coresite.com/solutions/interconnection/amazon-web-services-direct-connect11:21
kanzure"You can procure rack space within the facility housing the AWS Direct Connect location and deploy your equipment nearby. However, AWS customer equipment cannot be placed within AWS Direct Connect racks or cage areas for security reasons."11:22
Diablo-D3....11:23
kanzurefrom https://aws.amazon.com/directconnect/faqs/11:23
Diablo-D3What the fuck.11:23
Diablo-D3Okay, so, I can get private transit into an AWS DC to connect to AWS services?!11:24
poppingtonicDiablo-D3: right now, the sub-problem of that problem that is under investigation is the problem of reflectivity in arithmetic systems. There are a number of impossibility theorems preventing this, like Lob's theorem, which states that Peano Arithmetic (or any system that in any way encodes rules that enable Peano-like numbers) cannot assert its own soundness.11:25
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poppingtonichere's Metacademy: https://www.metacademy.org/graphs/concepts/lobs_theorem11:26
poppingtonic.title11:26
yoleauxMetacademy11:26
Diablo-D3poppingtonic: ... that is surprisingly interesting.11:27
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Diablo-D3kanzure: so, literally, AWS now offers _everything)11:30
Diablo-D3s/)/_/11:30
poppingtonicheh i like how people assume that everyone reading irc posts has a subset  of the  awk interpreter in their brains to parse the 's' syntax.11:31
poppingtonicno offense, Diablo-D3, I'm just making an observation. ;)11:32
Diablo-D3don't they? ;)11:32
Diablo-D3Seriously though, Direct Connect is basically direct peering with AWS over a private VLAN at a specified edge location11:33
Diablo-D3like, no different than an IX, except AWS is your only peer11:34
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doclMy customers all intuitively understand "cloud" to mean "not physically present in my office". There is no economic incentive for me to argue the point with them, as doing so would only serve to confuse them further and extend the call.12:00
doclI don't work providing these "cloud" servers, I'm just a support rep who sometimes gets asked questions about how our software can be set up. Can I put it on the cloud? Whether that's a specific physical server on a rack or a virtual server distributed over many racks does not fall in the scope of what they need to know.12:02
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kanzuredocl: may i ask, why support?12:19
doclNot sure why I'm still doing that instead of programming. I think my employer has funny ideas about the importance of a degree. I tolerate it because he's building a cryonics org, which is where I spend most of my time (albeit doing boring desk work).12:24
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doclI'm really good at support though. I can explain complicated things in simple terms, and have strong inductive reasoning skills for narrowing down and diagnosing issues.12:33
Diablo-D3docl: honestly, thats basically it12:43
Diablo-D3docl: cloud means "offsite, not our infra"12:43
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doclI do expect to see clouds that are more literally cloud like. Swarms of small computers that interact intelligently.13:05
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poppingtonicwhat does that mean?  a cloud system with something like Netflix's chaos monkey, efficient loadbalancing, Erlang-like server-level supervisor trees?13:12
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doclOops, I shouldn't have said "intelligently" and contributed to the dilution of that term. But yes, passing the work around efficiently. Also they can keep track of each other's physical positions and form phased array antennas for various purposes.13:16
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eudoxiahuh, i didn't know about oregon cryonics13:31
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Diablo-D3poppingtonic: mmmm rlang13:55
Diablo-D3erlang's beam vm is my favorite vm ever13:55
Diablo-D3erlang as a language, verbosity wise and syntax wise, whhhhyyyyyyyy13:56
Diablo-D3although where elixir is headed, I am interested13:56
xentracpoppingtonic: I was amused to discover that HipChat actually interprets the s/a/b/ syntax and edits the previous log message for you in software13:58
Diablo-D3xentrac: for a limited time13:58
* Diablo-D3 uses hipchat for work, found that feature by accidnt13:58
poppingtonicxentrac: gitter does it too.14:03
poppingtonicI really like Elixir. Might use it for realtime/webrtc projects at work soon.14:04
Diablo-D3I'm thinking about writing my next project in c# tbh14:06
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ProteusIt's always nice when published research reinforces my preconceptions and rationalizations while simultaneously stroking my ego: http://www.mcla.edu/Assets/MCLA-Files/Academics/Undergraduate/Psychology/Taboo%20word%20fluency%20and%20knowledge%20of%20slurs%20and%20general%20pejoratives.pdf14:13
kanzurewhat? i thought the folk assumption was that the speaker didn't want to find other words, not that the speaker couldn't. actually, i'm confused now.14:14
Proteuswell, they actually do talk about resistance to produce taboo words in subjects as a possible explanation of low numbers of such words in some subjects14:16
Proteuslow numbers of such words produced BY some subjects, rather14:17
Proteusas finals wrap up and I actually have time to catch up on diybio mailing list traffic, it's depressing just how far behind I am. My parents found out about Josiah's diy CRISPR kit before I did. At least I heard about it before my PI14:19
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kanzurewas that the kickstarter thingy?14:41
Proteusindiegogo14:43
Proteushttps://www.indiegogo.com/projects/diy-crispr-kits-learn-modern-science-by-doing14:43
kanzurehttps://www.indiegogo.com/projects/diy-crispr-kits-learn-modern-science-by-doing#/14:43
kanzurehm..14:43
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ProteusI've been looking at those cheap chinese knockoffs of pipetteman pipettes for a while, particularly since pipette/reagent/kit costs keep holding me up. Does anyone know how accurate they actually are?14:45
kanzureah i was thinking of the "amino" junk. (also i am not fond of people willing to shit all over a namespace like that)14:46
Proteusamino junk? I'm not sure what you're referring to.14:46
kanzureit's not important14:47
kanzuredisregard14:47
Proteusdone.14:47
Proteusincidentally, kanzure: you're the guy that used to take minutes of the meetings between the diybio community and the FBI, correct? Is there still a number you can call if you have problems with local cops when neighbors complain about your home lab?14:49
kanzureoh totally, any of the special agents are willing14:49
kanzurejust pick someone from the weapons of mass destruction division14:49
kanzureer, hm, their phone numbers might not be public14:49
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Proteuswhew, ok, I'm glad that's still a thing. I seem to recall reading the minutes a few years ago and seeing a specific number mentioned14:50
kanzureyeah that sounds like a good thing to know; but i don't recall that number.14:50
kanzurealso, they weren't minutes :-) they were exact transcripts typed in real-time.14:50
ProteusI stand corrected14:51
kanzureshrug14:51
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FourFireso I just spent more time struggling with the arduino language, didn't get much more progress than last night, but now I have some (short) cables to play with for 6 Analogue inputs15:30
FourFireHow to get the most useful stuff out of dev culture without aggregating bling and merch and buzzwords and "*culture" ?15:31
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kanzuremaaku: you should hang out in #debian-reproducible15:56
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Diablo-D3so I wonder why we don't have a channel on this network to discuss nootropics16:06
CautiousNarwhalwe cant just discuss that here?16:07
kanzurevarious book things https://github.com/DIYBookScanner16:07
kanzureDiablo-D3: there's #reddit-nootropics16:07
kanzurebut... reddit.16:07
Diablo-D3yeah I saw /r/nootropics16:08
Diablo-D3its ... its not good16:08
CautiousNarwhallol16:08
CautiousNarwhalreddit16:08
Diablo-D3cant imagine their irc channel being any different16:08
Diablo-D3hey, reddit has good parts16:08
Diablo-D3that isnt one of them16:08
kanzurereddit does not have good parts.16:08
CautiousNarwhalthats a very biased group16:08
CautiousNarwhalbut sometimes informative16:08
CautiousNarwhalthe sub i mean16:08
Diablo-D3kanzure: /r/headphones is okay16:09
CautiousNarwhalwhat kind of diy do you guuys do?16:10
CautiousNarwhalwhat nootropics have you guys had positive experiences with?16:21
bjonnhhah r/nootropics16:23
FourFireHas anyone had success 3D printing the containers described in this article: http://www.statnews.com/2015/12/03/antibiotics-bacteria-research/ ?16:35
ProteusCautiousNarwhal: as a molecular bio/math bio guy........you really ought to take everything in /r/nootropics as pseudoscience until proven otherwise16:37
Proteusor Diablo-D3, I mean16:37
ProteusCautiousNarwhal, Diablo-D3: /r/drugnerds is occasionally quite interesting if you're into biochem/pharmacology16:42
bjonnhProteus: apigenin as a nootropic my ass16:43
bjonnh"Apigenin improves neuron formation, strengthens connections between brain cells" they can't be serious16:44
Proteuslol16:44
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bjonnhobviously people making this kind of studies didn't eat enough16:45
Proteusat this point my brain just just interprets the word "nootropic" as a sort of synechdoche for 'pseudoscience'16:46
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bjonnhthat's not really far from that yes16:46
bjonnhand what worries me, is that people that think they need nootropics believe in that. Meaning that even if they are more "efficient" they are efficient to do what?16:47
Proteusexactly16:47
Proteusthey aren't being rigorous at any level16:47
Proteusgarbage in, garbage out16:48
CautiousNarwhalits there is this huge control panel but you cant figure out easily how to use or move the levelers and you try something that changes a leveler and you advertise its improvement. tweaks are not improvements.16:52
bjonnhProteus: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/acs.jmedchem.5b0100916:52
CautiousNarwhalefficient for increase of working-memory (ram)?16:59
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Proteusbjonnh: I hadn't seen this but it's quite interesting.17:00
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Proteusbjonnh: This is coming from another direction but suggests some intriguing possibilities for filtering potential therapeutic compounds    http://journals.plos.org/ploscompbiol/article?id=10.1371/journal.pcbi.100376317:02
bjonnhProteus: actually that's my paper ;)17:02
bjonnh(the jmedchem one)17:02
Proteusnice!17:02
CautiousNarwhalboth very interesting reads17:06
ProteusThese are the kinds of methodological refinements we need to improve the signal to noise ratio of bioprospecting17:07
bjonnhI'm a bit surprised by the plos article17:10
bjonnhdo you really make sense of the abstract17:12
bjonnh?17:12
Proteuspretty much, but I have a little experience with probablistic boolean network models of protein networks and quite a bit more experience with the molecular biology side of things.17:14
bjonnhyeah same for me17:14
bjonnhmy problem here is that they are trying to infer properties from an already described model17:16
Proteuswell, I supposed the next step would be to follow up with a new batch of proposed/approved drugs and see how well their claims hold up17:18
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bjonnhthis paper use a lot of jargon17:22
kanzurebjonnh: Proteus: well specifically the definition of a nootropic should be something that enables its user to design and implement either a better nootropic or at least the same level of nootropic.17:31
kanzureworking memory improvements would also be much appreciated.17:31
ProteusI'd certainly like some working memory improvements17:31
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Proteuskanzure: that's an unusual definition for 'nootropics.' That's kind of like saying you haven't created artificial intelligence until the intelligence you create invents something smarter than you.17:32
kanzureno, i clearly said at least an equal-level nootropic17:35
Proteusbjonnh: lol, I suppose there is a lot of jargon. Though in this case it seems less like deliberate attempt to obfuscate and more just the unavoidable consequence of needing to combine tools from the jargon-heavy disciplines of topology, computer science, and molecular biology.17:35
kanzurethe actual nootropic impact required to make anything remotely resembling a nootropic is actually quite low... some basic chemistry, maybe some gene expression knowledge, there's not much here yo.17:36
Proteuskanzure: perhaps I'm misunderstanding - do you have a word you'd prefer to use for something that simply improves normal function above baseline? It just seems like you're setting a very high bar - or perhaps it's not you and I'm simply unfamiliar with the etymology of 'nootropic'17:36
kanzurei'm not convinced it's that high17:36
kanzureclearly we have people running around- without nootropics- creating small molecules that seem to have a beneficial impact (you could claim this is unrelated to the people's intelligence or whatever, which would be fair, except that people are definitely required to actually manufacture and design those drugs anyway, even if the small molecules are from prehistoric knowledge or whatever euphemism of the day is prevalent)17:37
bjonnhProteus: well I'm wondering… I've seen really really complex papers, and references to the basic pieces were there17:37
bjonnhProteus: you may be interested looking to the firn references in the j med chem paper17:39
bjonnhin term of evolution and robustness this is interesting17:40
Proteusout of the 123 mentioned are there any in particular you'd recommend?17:42
Proteusoh17:44
Proteusfirn17:44
bjonnhyes17:45
bjonnhclearly17:45
Proteusit's an odd name and my brain just filtered it out as a typo17:46
bjonnhI really have doubts about this paper17:50
bjonnhthis network is made from signaling pathways17:50
bjonnhof course they are more known if you have drugs acting on them17:52
bjonnhand the opposite is true too17:52
bjonnhand new drugs are likely to target new pathways, because the other ones already have drugs targetting them17:53
bjonnhwe usually don't need more "potent" drugs for most of the known pathways17:53
bjonnhalso drugs are usually developped using animals17:54
bjonnhmeaning that the pathways should be present in them too17:54
bjonnhmeaning that if we have them and animals have them, they are more highly conserved17:55
bjonnhand this paper tend to show the opposite17:56
CautiousNarwhalbjonnh which paper are you referring there?17:58
ProteusCautiousNarwhal: http://journals.plos.org/ploscompbiol/article?id=10.1371/journal.pcbi.100376317:58
CautiousNarwhalah of course17:59
kanzure.title18:02
yoleauxPLOS Computational Biology: Robustness and Evolvability of the Human Signaling Network18:02
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ProteusI actually hadn't considered biases in their dataset and I'm thinking about that now, but I'm not sure I understand why you think that this paper is getting determination of sequence conservation backwards.18:07
Diablo-D3[07:21:34] <CautiousNarwhal> what nootropics have you guys had positive experiences with?18:08
Diablo-D3CautiousNarwhal: I've been experimenting with rather straight forward shit18:08
Diablo-D3like absurd amounts of omega 318:09
Diablo-D3http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2178414518:09
Proteusbjonnh: one thing I do notice is this sentence: "The attractor landscape of the original network and that of the evolvable core are very similar despite the fact that the evolvable core was obtained by removing edges whose deletion did not change the landscape of the primary attractor only."18:10
bjonnhProteus: I'm looking at it from the drug side18:10
Diablo-D3like that study is about taking ~2100mg of EPA and ~350mg of DHA daily to reduce anxiety18:10
ProteusI'm looking for how they went about this analytically18:11
bjonnhProteus: yeah this look more and more suspicious the more I read it18:11
Proteusfiguring out the determinative power of each node and deleting the maximum number of nodes without altering the attractor landscape or system behavior is a tricky problem.18:12
bjonnhand the material and method doesn't explain anything18:13
bjonnh"we dit it but you will never know how"18:13
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Proteuswell, ok, I guess if you're just looking at what doesn't alter attractors maybe it's easier. I'd like to see them find ergodic sets within the network and look at what relationships those have to the 'robust neighbors'18:14
kanzure"To continue with my theme about the bias towards action, I would note the following. Suppose that one periodically samples a random variable to decide whether the correct action is to leave some situation alone, or to intervene. Assuming that one continues sampling after getting back "do nothing", but that an "intervene" decision is final, it should be clear that "intervene" will always win eventually, if the random variable has even ...18:14
kanzure... a tiny probability of coming up "intervene", even if the vast majority of the probability mass is on "do nothing". So in light of that, if one is going to continue to stand around and talk about intervening, one should probably bias further and further away from intervening as time passes, to account for the fact that eventually the coin will come up "intervene" through bad luck no matter what the correct decision is."18:14
kanzurefrom http://lesswrong.com/lw/n0l/lesswrong_20/18:15
Proteusbjonnh: it looks like that stuff is in the references. they get the network from here: http://www.pnas.org/content/105/6/191318:16
bjonnhnetwork itself yes18:16
Proteusoddly enough I know some of the people who wrote that one18:16
bjonnhok they did put the software too18:16
bjonnhmaybe this paper is just not really clear18:16
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bjonnhI know that journal editing rules can make that…18:17
ProteusI think a few things are potentially going on. 1) The community capable of combining these tools to do this work is really damn tiny. 2) mathematicians aren't always good at understanding the limitations of their models when dealing with the messy complexity of biology. Perhaps their desire for elegance and lack of experience with biological datasets biased them toward overly strong conclusions. 3) They had this really cool insight into signal18:20
ProteusHonestly, when I came across it I was far more intrigued in the ability to think about distinct evolvable/robust subsets of the network18:21
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Proteusoh, I didn't finish 1)  -- it's a tiny community so they assume everyone's familiar with what they're talking about already18:22
ProteusI'm not convinced that they're not on to something though. I do want to think more about what biases the drug data they used could introduce.18:24
ProteusOne of my main interests is in trying to find ways to apply tools from mathematical biology to problems in synthetic biology but those two worlds are really bad at communicating with each other. It's frustrating.18:28
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kanzureProteus: have you seen http://diyhpl.us/wiki/dna/projects/#igem-201418:36
Proteuskanzure: I'm definitely aware of iGEM, though I hadn't seen links to the projects so nicely listed like this18:39
kanzurei've been meaning to finish the 2015 list. oops.18:40
Proteusyeah, I hadn't gotten to reading through them yet. So much cool stuff.18:41
bjonnhProteus: http://www.nature.com/articles/srep0222318:42
bjonnhI find this one a lot more clear18:42
bjonnhthe introduction is really clear18:43
Proteusoh right, I read this one a while ago, I forgot it was done by some of the same people18:43
bjonnh(same authors)18:44
bjonnhyeah18:44
bjonnhbut I still think there is a huge bias toward known pathways in these networks18:45
xentracso an interesting thing about topology optimization18:46
kanzure.title18:46
xentracthe main topopt dude, ole whatzisname, is doing things like heatsink design18:46
yoleauxDiscovery of a kernel for controlling biomolecular regulatory networks : Scientific Reports18:46
xentracthermodynamic and CFD FEM simulation in order to develop heatsinks that transfer heat to a cooler environment more efficiently18:47
Proteusagain, I wish they'd also taken an analytical approach and looked at ergodic sets within the network and looked at how those overlapped with the 'control kernel' they found using GAs18:47
xentracalso fluidic valves, stuff like that18:47
xentracthe heatsinks kind of look like coral18:47
kanzurexentrac: i was once working for someone that was doing shape graph grammar transformations and genetic algorithm things (or A* search?) for heat sink optimization, i think.18:48
kanzurehm wait. i might be wrong.18:49
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ProteusA* search for heatsink optimization? I'm trying to imagine what that would entail.....18:49
kanzureProteus: over design space18:49
kanzureoh hm this one is new,18:50
kanzure"Layout synthesis of fluid channels using generative graph grammars" http://ir.library.oregonstate.edu/xmlui/bitstream/handle/1957/55536/CampbellMatthewMIMELayoutSynthesisFluid.pdf?sequence=418:50
kanzureso that one uses CFD but uh, i'm sure you can pretend really hard that it's FEA or heat transfer analysis18:51
bjonnhI wonder if a multicell organism could be used to design such an heatsink18:52
xentracFEA is one way to do CFD18:52
kanzurehuh he is using parasolid and openfoam. glad he gave up on opencascade.18:52
xentracthe topopt guy is generating his topologies in a much simpler way18:52
kanzureoh sure, generative grammar is sort of overkill in a few cases18:52
xentracit probably allows you to scale to more complex systems18:53
xentracthe topopt dude is using hundreds of CPU-years for what seem like relatively simple problems18:53
kanzure"just enumerate all the possibilities, you have time for that, right?"18:53
gene_hackeroh hey18:53
gene_hackerthe knowledge engineering paper18:54
gene_hackerthey also did tensegrity structures18:54
gene_hackerthat wasn't matt18:54
gene_hackerthat was a grad student and parasolid has been given up....18:54
kanzureparasolid was wonky?18:55
xentracwell, he's defined his design space to have hundreds of thousands of dimensions18:55
xentracso as far as I can tell he's just doing gradient optimgdescent18:55
bjonnhwas he able to make it?18:56
kanzuregene_hacker: the thing that xentrac is looking at is http://ewp.rpi.edu/hartford/~ernesto/SPR/Thomas-FinalReport.pdf18:57
gene_hackernah, forced to switch to ACIS, but that didn't work18:57
kanzuregene_hacker: two new things for you guys to try... http://solvespace.com/index.pl and http://verbnurbs.com/18:57
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gene_hackermatt gave up on cad kernels, only wants to work with tesselated and voxelated data now18:58
kanzurehaha18:58
kanzurepoor guy18:58
gene_hackerso what's the thing that took hundreds of CPU hours for topopt?18:59
gene_hackertopopt like 2d stuff is fast, you can do it in real time almost18:59
gene_hacker3d even18:59
kanzureyou could probably do some gpu acceleration i guess19:00
gene_hackerfor optimization of solid single material structures minimizing displacement you can do it in realtime19:01
bjonnhProteus: http://www.pnas.org/content/103/44/16568.short19:02
bjonnhProteus: quick make a dietary supplement. rat brain slices proved it19:03
kanzure.title19:03
yoleauxFlavonoid fisetin promotes ERK-dependent long-term potentiation and enhances memory19:03
gene_hackerhey xentrac who's this main topology optimization dude?19:04
bjonnhit enhance the score on models of memory based on experiments on rat brain slices19:04
bjonnhbut these molecules don't reach brain19:04
bjonnhfragments of them do however19:04
kanzurexentrac: ^19:04
ProteusI'm looking through those Frin papers you pointed out. Interesting stuff. I wish there was a well-organized and updated collection of 'how to think about why biological systems look the way they do' papers like this.19:06
bjonnhunfortunately he died some years ago19:07
bjonnhand jones doesn't seem to really follow-up on that19:07
Proteusbjonnh et. al: I stumbled on this recently, looks a bit intriguing    http://www.nature.com/mp/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/mp2015178a.html19:09
bjonnhProteus: a pill that can cure them all19:11
Proteusmy understanding of the background is that darpa funded a group that just screened compounds for increased hippocampal neurogenesis to see if that approach would be more successful in finding drugs to improve depression/memory19:13
bjonnhat least this one seems to promote this neurogenesis19:15
Proteusyeah, like I said, it's intriguing. Phase 1b results don't mean a whole lot though. Nice to see that it appears to be relatively well tolerated.19:16
xentracI was actually thinking of a video Ole whatzisname did that I watched the other night, kanzure19:25
xentracI think Thomas-FinalReport is just about minimal-compliance bracket design in 2D19:26
xentracthe thing that took hours was a 3D design with simulation of convection19:27
xentrac.g topology optimization ole19:27
yoleauxhttp://www.topopt.dtu.dk/19:27
xentracOle Sigmund19:28
xentrache mentioned offhand that they do overnight runs on ten thousand CPUs19:28
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maakukanzure: looks like an empty channel19:30
xentracI'm not even totally clear on what "compliance" is; is it just spring rate under the load they're optimizing for?  or is it something more interesting, like spring energy capacity?19:31
xentracoh, yes, it's spring rate.  or rather its reciprocal19:32
xentracthis is related to what fenn and I were talking about the other night: you would think topopt would find and exploit antispring structures in order to produce giant stiffness if that is actually a thing you can do19:32
xentracbut it might also be the case that the relatively simple optimization procedures people typically use (as gene_hacker points out, you can do 2D topopt for stiffness in real time) won't explore enough of the design space to find weird things like antisprings19:36
gene_hackerand 3d19:36
xentracI didn't know that about 3D; maybe if your grid size is relatively coarse?19:41
gene_hackerI'll have to find the program that does that19:41
xentracI watched a Midas NFX walkthrough of topopt (for compliance) this morning and it was pretty far from real time on the presenter's computer19:42
gene_hackerI think this is it http://www.topopt.dtu.dk/?q=node/90319:42
xentraclike, not only was it not 60fps, it was slow enough that instead of letting it finish, he canceled the process and loaded a precomputed result19:42
xentracbut maybe NFX's topopt implementation is inefficient19:43
maakuJayDugger: was making a technical joke... in a ring circuit like cable, the first person in the chain could exhaust all available bandwidth and there's nothing later nodes can do (except fight back by causing interferrance)19:44
gene_hackerwell when I played around with topology optimization in ansys, it did not take a crazy long time19:44
xentracit seems like the kind of thing that you could throw an arbitrarily large amount of computation time at in order to get a marginally better result19:45
xentracbut that's probably a bad default for prepackaged software19:46
gene_hackerok yeah, I guess the above is pretty coarse19:46
xentracI have no experience with ansys19:46
maakuDiablo-D3: Yudkowsky is a Luddite disguised as a transhumanist19:47
xentracthe page shows that it's a bit coarse and also claims that it's slow enough that you can watch the evolution toward the optimum19:47
maakuand unfortunately he's been able to rabble-rouse luddite mobs on occation, although his influence seems to be waning19:47
Diablo-D3maaku: I dunno, I was exposed to him as the author of hpmor19:47
Diablo-D3thats all Ill probably ever see him as19:47
Diablo-D3the rest of his fiction is pretty boring19:47
maakuDiablo-D3: cool. it's probably best if you restrict your knowledge of his writing to HPMoR19:49
gene_hackerI just had a professor recommend that to us19:49
Diablo-D3and the irony is, I'm not even a hp fan, Ive never read the books or seen the movies19:49
Diablo-D3but as far as fanfiction goes, I was pretty impressed19:49
Diablo-D3usually someone doesn't go an fix why I don't like a work (hp suffers from idiot character syndrome pretty badly)19:50
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maakuDiablo-D3: in his non-fiction-writing day job EY rotates though the rationality circuit convincing his listeners that people like kanzure and me are going to kill all humans19:52
Diablo-D3well19:52
Diablo-D3if you ARE going to kill all humans19:52
Diablo-D3I wish you'd do it already19:52
maakuhey man killing all humans is a big job it takes time!19:53
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maakuthere's a lot of you guys!19:53
Diablo-D3well, thats mostly because of fucking china and india19:53
Diablo-D3or rather, china and india fucking19:53
Diablo-D3seriously though19:53
Diablo-D3if AI or whatever monster of the week kills us all19:54
Diablo-D3so be it19:54
Diablo-D3we're going to kill ourselves conventionally anways19:54
Diablo-D3like, we've pretty much cursed every major disease19:54
Diablo-D3we've extended life pretty damned far19:54
Diablo-D3yet we go waste trillions of dollars on really dumb shit, like "war"19:54
Diablo-D3probably when its all said and done, and anyone is left that actually can do the math19:55
Diablo-D3the total economic cost globally of the iraq/afghanistan bullshit fest is probably in the low triple digit trillions19:55
Diablo-D3whatever we don't have figured out could have literally been purchased with that money19:55
Diablo-D3I'm not convinced humanity should continue to exist with behavior like that19:57
Diablo-D3And given our self-destructive nature, that problem may actually go and solve itself in the next 40 years.19:57
Diablo-D3 /rant19:58
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kanzure.title http://www.nature.com/mp/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/mp2015178a.html21:02
yoleauxMolecular Psychiatry - A Phase 1B, randomized, double blind, placebo controlled, multiple-dose escalation study of NSI-189 phosphate, a neurogenic compound, in depressed patients21:03
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bjonnhkanzure: does that go to a db?21:11
AdrianGlets see how well it does in the real world.21:14
AdrianGhopefully would be a nice change from SSRIs21:14
AdrianGDiablo-D3: low triple digit trillions?21:15
AdrianGlike 100 trillion dollars lol21:15
AdrianG?21:15
Diablo-D3yes21:15
Diablo-D3Im not even being hyperbolic about it21:15
AdrianGdont be naive21:15
Diablo-D3wait, do you think Im too low or too high?21:16
AdrianGwhy would be a total negative21:16
AdrianGit most likely was a positive, if anything.21:16
kanzurebjonnh: hm?21:16
Diablo-D3do we have a colony on mars yet? no? everything the government is currently doing is a total negative until we get that.21:17
Diablo-D3seriously, I do not give a fuck about what people think are normal priorities anymore21:17
AdrianGDiablo-D3: you are right. we should comandeer all resources and make everyone build rockets for mars missions21:17
maakuwhy the mars fixation? outer solar system is where it is at21:17
AdrianGand cage them if they disagree, i think thats the best way21:17
Diablo-D3normal priorities is why the world is so fucked up21:18
Diablo-D3maaku: thats the difference between an on site backup and an off site backup21:18
Diablo-D3we don't have either21:18
Diablo-D3so the argument is moot21:18
AdrianGmaaku: nah, we will fly to the sun of course. but at night, because the sun is too hot during days.21:18
Diablo-D3AdrianG: goddamnit.21:18
AdrianGDiablo-D3: you are taking life too seriously21:19
AdrianGbesides, you have to start practising somewhere21:19
AdrianGyou know how much practise with drones we got in iraq?21:19
AdrianGthats accumulated knowledge we didnt have.21:19
Diablo-D3okay so can drones cure cancer, aids, and male pattern baldness?21:20
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AdrianGcan mars base cure any of this?21:22
justanotherusercaptcha is out, OCR is in https://www.sciencemag.org/content/350/6266/1332.full21:23
justanotheruser.title21:23
yoleauxHuman-level concept learning through probabilistic program induction21:23
Diablo-D3AdrianG: we need that too21:23
AdrianGjustanotheruser: nice.21:24
AdrianGhow are we going to prevent bots now?21:24
justanotheruserAdrianG: PoW, duh21:24
AdrianGbitcoin?21:24
justanotheruserPoW21:24
AdrianGbitcoin is pre-canned PoW21:24
Diablo-D3[PoW]21:24
AdrianGotherwise you can just spam with ASICs.21:24
Diablo-D3those little blocks in mario 221:24
justanotherusercaptcha has always been cheaper to solve for scammers in third world countries than the average user (being that the labor is much cheaper). PoW levels the playing field.21:25
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CautiousNarwhalim back21:25
AdrianGequal opportunity spammers21:25
Diablo-D3hah21:26
bjonnhkanzure: when you do .title, does that mean that you have a database somewhere with all the links posted here?21:26
justanotheruserRather than you spending a $0.50 of your first world time entering a captcha, and a scammer spending $0.02 of some bangledishi wage slaves time, you will now be spending $0.50 doing PoW and the best the scammer can do is go to iceland21:27
justanotheruserbjonnh: he does21:27
justanotheruserbjonnh: gnusha.org/logs/21:28
kanzurebjonnh: .title is just a way for me to avoid visiting boring links21:29
kanzure350/6266/1332.full not easy to remember which one this is, so have to ask the irc bot for a title21:29
CautiousNarwhaldo you just go to the logs and find .title?21:30
kanzurethe bot replies immediately21:31
kanzure.title https://www.sciencemag.org/content/350/6266/1332.full21:31
yoleauxHuman-level concept learning through probabilistic program induction21:31
kanzureso... no.21:31
CautiousNarwhalwhich bot? im so lost haha21:38
justanotheruseryoleaux?21:39
kanzureyoleaux is a bot21:40
kanzurebased on phantomcircuit's assessment of hplusroadmap logs, i believe i can safely say i was the first bitcoin hater21:47
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CautiousNarwhalhow do you use the bot?21:54
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bjonnhdid you believe in bitcoin at some point?22:00
AdrianGkanzure: when did you start hating bitcoin22:03
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