* [bitcoin-dev] Proposal: Full-RBF in Bitcoin Core 24.0 @ 2021-06-15 16:55 Antoine Riard 2021-06-17 0:58 ` Billy Tetrud 2021-12-18 16:51 ` Jeremy 0 siblings, 2 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Antoine Riard @ 2021-06-15 16:55 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 7434 bytes --] Hi, I'm writing to propose deprecation of opt-in RBF in favor of full-RBF as the Bitcoin Core's default replacement policy in version 24.0. As a reminder, the next release is 22.0, aimed for August 1st, assuming agreement is reached, this policy change would enter into deployment phase a year from now. Even if this replacement policy has been deemed as highly controversial a few years ago, ongoing and anticipated changes in the Bitcoin ecosystem are motivating this proposal. # RBF opt-out as a DoS Vector against Multi-Party Funded Transactions As explained in "On Mempool Funny Games against Multi-Party Funded Transactions'', 2nd issue [0], an attacker can easily DoS a multi-party funded transactions by propagating an RBF opt-out double-spend of its contributed input before the honest transaction is broadcasted by the protocol orchester. DoSes are qualified in the sense of either an attacker wasting timevalue of victim's inputs or forcing exhaustion of the fee-bumping reserve. This affects a series of Bitcoin protocols such as Coinjoin, onchain DLCs and dual-funded LN channels. As those protocols are still in the early phase of deployment, it doesn't seem to have been executed in the wild for now. That said, considering that dual-funded are more efficient from a liquidity standpoint, we can expect them to be widely relied on, once Lightning enters in a more mature phase. At that point, it should become economically rational for liquidity service providers to launch those DoS attacks against their competitors to hijack user traffic. Beyond that, presence of those DoSes will complicate the design and deployment of multi-party Bitcoin protocols such as payment pools/multi-party channels. Note, Lightning Pool isn't affected as there is a preliminary stage where batch participants are locked-in their funds within an account witnessScript shared with the orchestrer. Of course, even assuming full-rbf, propagation of the multi-party funded transactions can still be interfered with by an attacker, simply broadcasting a double-spend with a feerate equivalent to the honest transaction. However, it tightens the attack scenario to a scorched earth approach, where the attacker has to commit equivalent fee-bumping reserve to maintain the pinning and might lose the "competing" fees to miners. # RBF opt-out as a Mempools Partitions Vector A longer-term issue is the risk of mempools malicious partitions, where an attacker exploits network topology or divergence in mempools policies to partition network mempools in different subsets. From then a wide range of attacks can be envisioned such as package pinning [1], artificial congestion to provoke LN channels closure or manipulation of fee-estimator's feerate (the Core's one wouldn't be affected as it relies on block confirmation, though other fee estimators designs deployed across the ecosystem are likely going to be affected). Traditionally, mempools partitions have been gauged as a spontaneous outcome of a distributed systems like Bitcoin p2p network and I'm not aware it has been studied in-depth for adversarial purposes. Though, deployment of second-layer protocols, heavily relying on sanity of a local mempool for fee-estimation and robust propagation of their time-sensitive transactions might lead to reconsider this position. Acknowledging this, RBF opt-out is a low-cost partitioning tool, of which the existence nullifies most of potential progresses to mitigate malicious partitioning. To resume, opt-in RBF doesn't suit well deployment of robust second-layers protocol, even if those issues are still early and deserve more research. At the same time, I believe a meaningful subset of the ecosystem are still relying on 0-confs transactions, even if their security is relying on far weaker assumptions (opt-in RBF rule is a policy rule, not a consensus one) [2] A rapid change of Core's mempool rules would be harming their quality of services and should be weighed carefully. On the other hand, it would be great to nudge them towards more secure handling of their 0-confs flows [3] Let's examine what could be deployed ecosystem-wise as enhancements to the 0-confs security model. # Proactive security models : Double-spend Monitoring/Receiver-side Fee-Topping with Package Relay From an attacker viewpoint, opt-in RBF isn't a big blocker to successful double-spends. Any motivated attacker can modify Core to mass-connect to a wide portion of the network, announce txA to this subset, announce txA' to the merchant. TxA' propagation will be encumbered by the privacy-preserving inventory timers (`OUTBOUND_INVENTORY_BROADCAST_INTERVAL`), of which an attacker has no care to respect. To detect a successful double-spend attempt, a Bitcoin service should run few full-nodes with well-spread connection graphs and unlinkable between them, to avoid being identified then maliciously partitioned from the rest of the network. I believe this tactic is already deployed by few Bitcoin services, and even one can throw flame at it because it over consumes network resources (bandwidth, connection slots, ...), it does procure a security advantage to the ones doing it. One further improvement on top of this protection could be to react after the double-spend detection by attaching a CPFP to the merchant transaction, with a higher package feerate than the double-spend. Expected deployment of package-relay as a p2p mechanism/mempool policy in Bitcoin Core should enable it to do so. # Reactive security models : EconomicReputation-based Compensations Another approach could be to react after the fact if a double-spend has been qualified. If the sender is already known to the service provider, the service account can be slashed. If the sender is a low-trusted counterparty to the merchant, "side-trust" models could be relied on. For e.g a LN pubkey with a stacked reputation from your autopilot, LSATs, stake certificates, a HTLC-as-a-fidelity-bond, ... The space is quite wide there but I foresee those trust-minimized, decentralized solutions being adopted by the LN ecosystem to patch the risks when you enter in a channel/HTLC operation with an anonymous counterparty. What other cool new tools could be considered to enhance 0-confs security ? To conclude, let's avoid replaying the contentious threads of a few years ago. What this new thread highlights is the fact that a transaction relay/mempool acceptance policy might be beneficial to some class of already-deployed Bitcoin applications while being detrimental to newer ones. How do we preserve the current interests of 0-confs users while enabling upcoming interests of fancy L2s to flourish is a good conversation to have. I think. If there is ecosystem agreement on switching to full-RBF, but 0.24 sounds too early, let's defer it to 0.25 or 0.26. I don't think Core has a consistent deprecation process w.r.t to policy rules heavily relied-on by Bitcoin users, if we do so let sets a precedent satisfying as many folks as we can. Cheers, Antoine [0] https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2021-May/003033.html [1] See scenario 3 : https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2020-June/002758.html [2] https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/10823#issuecomment-466485121 [3] And the LN ecosystem does have an interest to fix zero-confs security, if "turbo-channels"-like become normalized for mobile nodes [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 8068 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Proposal: Full-RBF in Bitcoin Core 24.0 2021-06-15 16:55 [bitcoin-dev] Proposal: Full-RBF in Bitcoin Core 24.0 Antoine Riard @ 2021-06-17 0:58 ` Billy Tetrud 2021-06-17 22:28 ` Greg Sanders 2021-06-25 0:23 ` Antoine Riard 2021-12-18 16:51 ` Jeremy 1 sibling, 2 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Billy Tetrud @ 2021-06-17 0:58 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Antoine Riard, Bitcoin Protocol Discussion [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 9526 bytes --] Russel O'Connor recently opined <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-June/019061.html> that RBF should be standard treatment of all transactions, rather than as a transaction opt-in/out. I agree with that. Any configuration in a transaction that has not been committed into a block yet simply can't be relied upon. Miners also have a clear incentive to ignore RBF rules and mine anything that passes consensus. At best opting out of RBF is a weak defense, and at worst it's simply a false sense of security that is likely to actively lead to theft events. Do we as a community want to support 0-conf payments in any way at this point? It seems rather silly to make software design decisions to accommodate 0-conf payments when there are better mechanisms for fast payments (ie lightning). One question I have is: how does software generally inform the user about 0-conf payment detection? Does software generally tell the user something along the lines of "This payment has not been finalized yet. All recipients should wait until the transaction has at least 1 confirmation, and most recipients should wait for 6 confirmations" ? I think unless we pressure software to be very explicit about what counts as finality, users will simply continue to do what they've always done. Rolling out this policy change over the course of a year or two seems fine, no need to rush. But I suppose it would depend on how often 0-conf is used in the bitcoin ecosystem at this point, which I don't have any data on. On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 10:00 AM Antoine Riard via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > Hi, > > I'm writing to propose deprecation of opt-in RBF in favor of full-RBF as > the Bitcoin Core's default replacement policy in version 24.0. As a > reminder, the next release is 22.0, aimed for August 1st, assuming > agreement is reached, this policy change would enter into deployment phase > a year from now. > > Even if this replacement policy has been deemed as highly controversial a > few years ago, ongoing and anticipated changes in the Bitcoin ecosystem are > motivating this proposal. > > # RBF opt-out as a DoS Vector against Multi-Party Funded Transactions > > As explained in "On Mempool Funny Games against Multi-Party Funded > Transactions'', 2nd issue [0], an attacker can easily DoS a multi-party > funded transactions by propagating an RBF opt-out double-spend of its > contributed input before the honest transaction is broadcasted by the > protocol orchester. DoSes are qualified in the sense of either an attacker > wasting timevalue of victim's inputs or forcing exhaustion of the > fee-bumping reserve. > > This affects a series of Bitcoin protocols such as Coinjoin, onchain DLCs > and dual-funded LN channels. As those protocols are still in the early > phase of deployment, it doesn't seem to have been executed in the wild for > now. That said, considering that dual-funded are more efficient from a > liquidity standpoint, we can expect them to be widely relied on, once > Lightning enters in a more mature phase. At that point, it should become > economically rational for liquidity service providers to launch those DoS > attacks against their competitors to hijack user traffic. > > Beyond that, presence of those DoSes will complicate the design and > deployment of multi-party Bitcoin protocols such as payment > pools/multi-party channels. Note, Lightning Pool isn't affected as there is > a preliminary stage where batch participants are locked-in their funds > within an account witnessScript shared with the orchestrer. > > Of course, even assuming full-rbf, propagation of the multi-party funded > transactions can still be interfered with by an attacker, simply > broadcasting a double-spend with a feerate equivalent to the honest > transaction. However, it tightens the attack scenario to a scorched earth > approach, where the attacker has to commit equivalent fee-bumping reserve > to maintain the pinning and might lose the "competing" fees to miners. > > # RBF opt-out as a Mempools Partitions Vector > > A longer-term issue is the risk of mempools malicious partitions, where an > attacker exploits network topology or divergence in mempools policies to > partition network mempools in different subsets. From then a wide range of > attacks can be envisioned such as package pinning [1], artificial > congestion to provoke LN channels closure or manipulation of > fee-estimator's feerate (the Core's one wouldn't be affected as it relies > on block confirmation, though other fee estimators designs deployed across > the ecosystem are likely going to be affected). > > Traditionally, mempools partitions have been gauged as a spontaneous > outcome of a distributed systems like Bitcoin p2p network and I'm not aware > it has been studied in-depth for adversarial purposes. Though, deployment > of second-layer > protocols, heavily relying on sanity of a local mempool for fee-estimation > and robust propagation of their time-sensitive transactions might lead to > reconsider this position. Acknowledging this, RBF opt-out is a low-cost > partitioning tool, of which the existence nullifies most of potential > progresses to mitigate malicious partitioning. > > > To resume, opt-in RBF doesn't suit well deployment of robust second-layers > protocol, even if those issues are still early and deserve more research. > At the same time, I believe a meaningful subset of the ecosystem are still > relying > on 0-confs transactions, even if their security is relying on far weaker > assumptions (opt-in RBF rule is a policy rule, not a consensus one) [2] A > rapid change of Core's mempool rules would be harming their quality of > services and should be > weighed carefully. On the other hand, it would be great to nudge them > towards more secure handling of their 0-confs flows [3] > > Let's examine what could be deployed ecosystem-wise as enhancements to the > 0-confs security model. > > # Proactive security models : Double-spend Monitoring/Receiver-side > Fee-Topping with Package Relay > > From an attacker viewpoint, opt-in RBF isn't a big blocker to successful > double-spends. Any motivated attacker can modify Core to mass-connect to a > wide portion of the network, announce txA to this subset, announce txA' to > the > merchant. TxA' propagation will be encumbered by the privacy-preserving > inventory timers (`OUTBOUND_INVENTORY_BROADCAST_INTERVAL`), of which an > attacker has no care to respect. > > To detect a successful double-spend attempt, a Bitcoin service should run > few full-nodes with well-spread connection graphs and unlinkable between > them, to avoid being identified then maliciously partitioned from the rest > of the network. > > I believe this tactic is already deployed by few Bitcoin services, and > even one can throw flame at it because it over consumes network resources > (bandwidth, connection slots, ...), it does procure a security advantage to > the ones doing it. > > One further improvement on top of this protection could be to react after > the double-spend detection by attaching a CPFP to the merchant transaction, > with a higher package feerate than the double-spend. Expected deployment of > package-relay as a p2p mechanism/mempool policy in Bitcoin Core should > enable it to do so. > > # Reactive security models : EconomicReputation-based Compensations > > Another approach could be to react after the fact if a double-spend has > been qualified. If the sender is already known to the service provider, the > service account can be slashed. If the sender is a low-trusted > counterparty to the merchant, "side-trust" models could be relied on. For > e.g a LN pubkey with a stacked reputation from your autopilot, LSATs, stake > certificates, a HTLC-as-a-fidelity-bond, ... The space is quite wide there > but I foresee those trust-minimized, decentralized solutions being adopted > by the LN ecosystem to patch the risks when you enter in a channel/HTLC > operation with an anonymous counterparty. > > What other cool new tools could be considered to enhance 0-confs security ? > > To conclude, let's avoid replaying the contentious threads of a few years > ago. What this new thread highlights is the fact that a transaction > relay/mempool acceptance policy might be beneficial to some class of > already-deployed > Bitcoin applications while being detrimental to newer ones. How do we > preserve the current interests of 0-confs users while enabling upcoming > interests of fancy L2s to flourish is a good conversation to have. I think. > > If there is ecosystem agreement on switching to full-RBF, but 0.24 sounds > too early, let's defer it to 0.25 or 0.26. I don't think Core has a > consistent deprecation process w.r.t to policy rules heavily relied-on by > Bitcoin users, if we do so let sets a precedent satisfying as many folks as > we can. > > Cheers, > Antoine > > [0] > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2021-May/003033.html > > [1] See scenario 3 : > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2020-June/002758.html > > [2] https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/10823#issuecomment-466485121 > > [3] And the LN ecosystem does have an interest to fix zero-confs security, > if "turbo-channels"-like become normalized for mobile nodes > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 10535 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Proposal: Full-RBF in Bitcoin Core 24.0 2021-06-17 0:58 ` Billy Tetrud @ 2021-06-17 22:28 ` Greg Sanders 2021-06-25 0:23 ` Antoine Riard 1 sibling, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Greg Sanders @ 2021-06-17 22:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Billy Tetrud, Bitcoin Protocol Discussion [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 10362 bytes --] Transaction analysis tools do take the signal into account, but I'm unsure if retail, non-custodial wallets use this information. Historically the biggest pushback has been from services like Bitrefill which have had quite a bit of success with 0-conf payments, but perhaps LN adoption is at a point where it's less of an impact? On Fri, Jun 18, 2021 at 4:15 AM Billy Tetrud via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > Russel O'Connor recently opined > <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-June/019061.html> > that RBF should be standard treatment of all transactions, rather than as a > transaction opt-in/out. I agree with that. Any configuration in a > transaction that has not been committed into a block yet simply can't be > relied upon. Miners also have a clear incentive to ignore RBF rules and > mine anything that passes consensus. At best opting out of RBF is a weak > defense, and at worst it's simply a false sense of security that is likely > to actively lead to theft events. > > Do we as a community want to support 0-conf payments in any way at this > point? It seems rather silly to make software design decisions to > accommodate 0-conf payments when there are better mechanisms for fast > payments (ie lightning). > > One question I have is: how does software generally inform the user about > 0-conf payment detection? Does software generally tell the user something > along the lines of "This payment has not been finalized yet. All recipients > should wait until the transaction has at least 1 confirmation, and most > recipients should wait for 6 confirmations" ? I think unless we pressure > software to be very explicit about what counts as finality, users will > simply continue to do what they've always done. Rolling out this policy > change over the course of a year or two seems fine, no need to rush. But I > suppose it would depend on how often 0-conf is used in the bitcoin > ecosystem at this point, which I don't have any data on. > > On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 10:00 AM Antoine Riard via bitcoin-dev < > bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I'm writing to propose deprecation of opt-in RBF in favor of full-RBF as >> the Bitcoin Core's default replacement policy in version 24.0. As a >> reminder, the next release is 22.0, aimed for August 1st, assuming >> agreement is reached, this policy change would enter into deployment phase >> a year from now. >> >> Even if this replacement policy has been deemed as highly controversial a >> few years ago, ongoing and anticipated changes in the Bitcoin ecosystem are >> motivating this proposal. >> >> # RBF opt-out as a DoS Vector against Multi-Party Funded Transactions >> >> As explained in "On Mempool Funny Games against Multi-Party Funded >> Transactions'', 2nd issue [0], an attacker can easily DoS a multi-party >> funded transactions by propagating an RBF opt-out double-spend of its >> contributed input before the honest transaction is broadcasted by the >> protocol orchester. DoSes are qualified in the sense of either an attacker >> wasting timevalue of victim's inputs or forcing exhaustion of the >> fee-bumping reserve. >> >> This affects a series of Bitcoin protocols such as Coinjoin, onchain DLCs >> and dual-funded LN channels. As those protocols are still in the early >> phase of deployment, it doesn't seem to have been executed in the wild for >> now. That said, considering that dual-funded are more efficient from a >> liquidity standpoint, we can expect them to be widely relied on, once >> Lightning enters in a more mature phase. At that point, it should become >> economically rational for liquidity service providers to launch those DoS >> attacks against their competitors to hijack user traffic. >> >> Beyond that, presence of those DoSes will complicate the design and >> deployment of multi-party Bitcoin protocols such as payment >> pools/multi-party channels. Note, Lightning Pool isn't affected as there is >> a preliminary stage where batch participants are locked-in their funds >> within an account witnessScript shared with the orchestrer. >> >> Of course, even assuming full-rbf, propagation of the multi-party funded >> transactions can still be interfered with by an attacker, simply >> broadcasting a double-spend with a feerate equivalent to the honest >> transaction. However, it tightens the attack scenario to a scorched earth >> approach, where the attacker has to commit equivalent fee-bumping reserve >> to maintain the pinning and might lose the "competing" fees to miners. >> >> # RBF opt-out as a Mempools Partitions Vector >> >> A longer-term issue is the risk of mempools malicious partitions, where >> an attacker exploits network topology or divergence in mempools policies to >> partition network mempools in different subsets. From then a wide range of >> attacks can be envisioned such as package pinning [1], artificial >> congestion to provoke LN channels closure or manipulation of >> fee-estimator's feerate (the Core's one wouldn't be affected as it relies >> on block confirmation, though other fee estimators designs deployed across >> the ecosystem are likely going to be affected). >> >> Traditionally, mempools partitions have been gauged as a spontaneous >> outcome of a distributed systems like Bitcoin p2p network and I'm not aware >> it has been studied in-depth for adversarial purposes. Though, deployment >> of second-layer >> protocols, heavily relying on sanity of a local mempool for >> fee-estimation and robust propagation of their time-sensitive transactions >> might lead to reconsider this position. Acknowledging this, RBF opt-out is >> a low-cost partitioning tool, of which the existence nullifies most of >> potential progresses to mitigate malicious partitioning. >> >> >> To resume, opt-in RBF doesn't suit well deployment of robust >> second-layers protocol, even if those issues are still early and deserve >> more research. At the same time, I believe a meaningful subset of the >> ecosystem are still relying >> on 0-confs transactions, even if their security is relying on far weaker >> assumptions (opt-in RBF rule is a policy rule, not a consensus one) [2] A >> rapid change of Core's mempool rules would be harming their quality of >> services and should be >> weighed carefully. On the other hand, it would be great to nudge them >> towards more secure handling of their 0-confs flows [3] >> >> Let's examine what could be deployed ecosystem-wise as enhancements to >> the 0-confs security model. >> >> # Proactive security models : Double-spend Monitoring/Receiver-side >> Fee-Topping with Package Relay >> >> From an attacker viewpoint, opt-in RBF isn't a big blocker to successful >> double-spends. Any motivated attacker can modify Core to mass-connect to a >> wide portion of the network, announce txA to this subset, announce txA' to >> the >> merchant. TxA' propagation will be encumbered by the privacy-preserving >> inventory timers (`OUTBOUND_INVENTORY_BROADCAST_INTERVAL`), of which an >> attacker has no care to respect. >> >> To detect a successful double-spend attempt, a Bitcoin service should run >> few full-nodes with well-spread connection graphs and unlinkable between >> them, to avoid being identified then maliciously partitioned from the rest >> of the network. >> >> I believe this tactic is already deployed by few Bitcoin services, and >> even one can throw flame at it because it over consumes network resources >> (bandwidth, connection slots, ...), it does procure a security advantage to >> the ones doing it. >> >> One further improvement on top of this protection could be to react after >> the double-spend detection by attaching a CPFP to the merchant transaction, >> with a higher package feerate than the double-spend. Expected deployment of >> package-relay as a p2p mechanism/mempool policy in Bitcoin Core should >> enable it to do so. >> >> # Reactive security models : EconomicReputation-based Compensations >> >> Another approach could be to react after the fact if a double-spend has >> been qualified. If the sender is already known to the service provider, the >> service account can be slashed. If the sender is a low-trusted >> counterparty to the merchant, "side-trust" models could be relied on. For >> e.g a LN pubkey with a stacked reputation from your autopilot, LSATs, stake >> certificates, a HTLC-as-a-fidelity-bond, ... The space is quite wide there >> but I foresee those trust-minimized, decentralized solutions being adopted >> by the LN ecosystem to patch the risks when you enter in a channel/HTLC >> operation with an anonymous counterparty. >> >> What other cool new tools could be considered to enhance 0-confs security >> ? >> >> To conclude, let's avoid replaying the contentious threads of a few years >> ago. What this new thread highlights is the fact that a transaction >> relay/mempool acceptance policy might be beneficial to some class of >> already-deployed >> Bitcoin applications while being detrimental to newer ones. How do we >> preserve the current interests of 0-confs users while enabling upcoming >> interests of fancy L2s to flourish is a good conversation to have. I think. >> >> If there is ecosystem agreement on switching to full-RBF, but 0.24 sounds >> too early, let's defer it to 0.25 or 0.26. I don't think Core has a >> consistent deprecation process w.r.t to policy rules heavily relied-on by >> Bitcoin users, if we do so let sets a precedent satisfying as many folks as >> we can. >> >> Cheers, >> Antoine >> >> [0] >> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2021-May/003033.html >> >> [1] See scenario 3 : >> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2020-June/002758.html >> >> [2] https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/10823#issuecomment-466485121 >> >> [3] And the LN ecosystem does have an interest to fix zero-confs >> security, if "turbo-channels"-like become normalized for mobile nodes >> _______________________________________________ >> bitcoin-dev mailing list >> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org >> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev >> > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 11716 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Proposal: Full-RBF in Bitcoin Core 24.0 2021-06-17 0:58 ` Billy Tetrud 2021-06-17 22:28 ` Greg Sanders @ 2021-06-25 0:23 ` Antoine Riard 2021-06-26 16:13 ` Billy Tetrud 1 sibling, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: Antoine Riard @ 2021-06-25 0:23 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Billy Tetrud; +Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 11476 bytes --] > Do we as a community want to support 0-conf payments in any way at this > point? It seems rather silly to make software design decisions to > accommodate 0-conf payments when there are better mechanisms for fast > payments (ie lightning). Well, we have zero-conf LN channels ? Actually, Lightning channel funding transactions should be buried under a few blocks, though few services providers are offering zero-conf channels, where you can start to spend instantly [0]. I believe that's an interesting usage, though IMHO as mentioned we can explore different security models to make 0-conf safe (reputation/fidelity-bond). > One question I have is: how does software generally inform the user about 0-conf payment detection? Yes generally it's something like an "Unconfirmed" annotation on incoming txn, though at least this is what Blockstream Green or Electrum are doing. > But I suppose it would depend on how often 0-conf is used in the bitcoin ecosystem at this point, which I don't have any data on. There are few Bitcoin services well-known to rely on 0-conf. Beyond how much of the Bitcoin traffic is tied to a 0-conf is a hard question, a lot of 0-confs service providers are going to be reluctant to share the information, for a really good reason you will learn a subset of their business volumes. I'll see if I can come up with some Fermi estimation on this front. [0] https://www.bitrefill.com/thor-turbo-channels/ Le mer. 16 juin 2021 à 20:58, Billy Tetrud <billy.tetrud@gmail•com> a écrit : > Russel O'Connor recently opined > <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-June/019061.html> > that RBF should be standard treatment of all transactions, rather than as a > transaction opt-in/out. I agree with that. Any configuration in a > transaction that has not been committed into a block yet simply can't be > relied upon. Miners also have a clear incentive to ignore RBF rules and > mine anything that passes consensus. At best opting out of RBF is a weak > defense, and at worst it's simply a false sense of security that is likely > to actively lead to theft events. > > Do we as a community want to support 0-conf payments in any way at this > point? It seems rather silly to make software design decisions to > accommodate 0-conf payments when there are better mechanisms for fast > payments (ie lightning). > > One question I have is: how does software generally inform the user about > 0-conf payment detection? Does software generally tell the user something > along the lines of "This payment has not been finalized yet. All recipients > should wait until the transaction has at least 1 confirmation, and most > recipients should wait for 6 confirmations" ? I think unless we pressure > software to be very explicit about what counts as finality, users will > simply continue to do what they've always done. Rolling out this policy > change over the course of a year or two seems fine, no need to rush. But I > suppose it would depend on how often 0-conf is used in the bitcoin > ecosystem at this point, which I don't have any data on. > > On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 10:00 AM Antoine Riard via bitcoin-dev < > bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I'm writing to propose deprecation of opt-in RBF in favor of full-RBF as >> the Bitcoin Core's default replacement policy in version 24.0. As a >> reminder, the next release is 22.0, aimed for August 1st, assuming >> agreement is reached, this policy change would enter into deployment phase >> a year from now. >> >> Even if this replacement policy has been deemed as highly controversial a >> few years ago, ongoing and anticipated changes in the Bitcoin ecosystem are >> motivating this proposal. >> >> # RBF opt-out as a DoS Vector against Multi-Party Funded Transactions >> >> As explained in "On Mempool Funny Games against Multi-Party Funded >> Transactions'', 2nd issue [0], an attacker can easily DoS a multi-party >> funded transactions by propagating an RBF opt-out double-spend of its >> contributed input before the honest transaction is broadcasted by the >> protocol orchester. DoSes are qualified in the sense of either an attacker >> wasting timevalue of victim's inputs or forcing exhaustion of the >> fee-bumping reserve. >> >> This affects a series of Bitcoin protocols such as Coinjoin, onchain DLCs >> and dual-funded LN channels. As those protocols are still in the early >> phase of deployment, it doesn't seem to have been executed in the wild for >> now. That said, considering that dual-funded are more efficient from a >> liquidity standpoint, we can expect them to be widely relied on, once >> Lightning enters in a more mature phase. At that point, it should become >> economically rational for liquidity service providers to launch those DoS >> attacks against their competitors to hijack user traffic. >> >> Beyond that, presence of those DoSes will complicate the design and >> deployment of multi-party Bitcoin protocols such as payment >> pools/multi-party channels. Note, Lightning Pool isn't affected as there is >> a preliminary stage where batch participants are locked-in their funds >> within an account witnessScript shared with the orchestrer. >> >> Of course, even assuming full-rbf, propagation of the multi-party funded >> transactions can still be interfered with by an attacker, simply >> broadcasting a double-spend with a feerate equivalent to the honest >> transaction. However, it tightens the attack scenario to a scorched earth >> approach, where the attacker has to commit equivalent fee-bumping reserve >> to maintain the pinning and might lose the "competing" fees to miners. >> >> # RBF opt-out as a Mempools Partitions Vector >> >> A longer-term issue is the risk of mempools malicious partitions, where >> an attacker exploits network topology or divergence in mempools policies to >> partition network mempools in different subsets. From then a wide range of >> attacks can be envisioned such as package pinning [1], artificial >> congestion to provoke LN channels closure or manipulation of >> fee-estimator's feerate (the Core's one wouldn't be affected as it relies >> on block confirmation, though other fee estimators designs deployed across >> the ecosystem are likely going to be affected). >> >> Traditionally, mempools partitions have been gauged as a spontaneous >> outcome of a distributed systems like Bitcoin p2p network and I'm not aware >> it has been studied in-depth for adversarial purposes. Though, deployment >> of second-layer >> protocols, heavily relying on sanity of a local mempool for >> fee-estimation and robust propagation of their time-sensitive transactions >> might lead to reconsider this position. Acknowledging this, RBF opt-out is >> a low-cost partitioning tool, of which the existence nullifies most of >> potential progresses to mitigate malicious partitioning. >> >> >> To resume, opt-in RBF doesn't suit well deployment of robust >> second-layers protocol, even if those issues are still early and deserve >> more research. At the same time, I believe a meaningful subset of the >> ecosystem are still relying >> on 0-confs transactions, even if their security is relying on far weaker >> assumptions (opt-in RBF rule is a policy rule, not a consensus one) [2] A >> rapid change of Core's mempool rules would be harming their quality of >> services and should be >> weighed carefully. On the other hand, it would be great to nudge them >> towards more secure handling of their 0-confs flows [3] >> >> Let's examine what could be deployed ecosystem-wise as enhancements to >> the 0-confs security model. >> >> # Proactive security models : Double-spend Monitoring/Receiver-side >> Fee-Topping with Package Relay >> >> From an attacker viewpoint, opt-in RBF isn't a big blocker to successful >> double-spends. Any motivated attacker can modify Core to mass-connect to a >> wide portion of the network, announce txA to this subset, announce txA' to >> the >> merchant. TxA' propagation will be encumbered by the privacy-preserving >> inventory timers (`OUTBOUND_INVENTORY_BROADCAST_INTERVAL`), of which an >> attacker has no care to respect. >> >> To detect a successful double-spend attempt, a Bitcoin service should run >> few full-nodes with well-spread connection graphs and unlinkable between >> them, to avoid being identified then maliciously partitioned from the rest >> of the network. >> >> I believe this tactic is already deployed by few Bitcoin services, and >> even one can throw flame at it because it over consumes network resources >> (bandwidth, connection slots, ...), it does procure a security advantage to >> the ones doing it. >> >> One further improvement on top of this protection could be to react after >> the double-spend detection by attaching a CPFP to the merchant transaction, >> with a higher package feerate than the double-spend. Expected deployment of >> package-relay as a p2p mechanism/mempool policy in Bitcoin Core should >> enable it to do so. >> >> # Reactive security models : EconomicReputation-based Compensations >> >> Another approach could be to react after the fact if a double-spend has >> been qualified. If the sender is already known to the service provider, the >> service account can be slashed. If the sender is a low-trusted >> counterparty to the merchant, "side-trust" models could be relied on. For >> e.g a LN pubkey with a stacked reputation from your autopilot, LSATs, stake >> certificates, a HTLC-as-a-fidelity-bond, ... The space is quite wide there >> but I foresee those trust-minimized, decentralized solutions being adopted >> by the LN ecosystem to patch the risks when you enter in a channel/HTLC >> operation with an anonymous counterparty. >> >> What other cool new tools could be considered to enhance 0-confs security >> ? >> >> To conclude, let's avoid replaying the contentious threads of a few years >> ago. What this new thread highlights is the fact that a transaction >> relay/mempool acceptance policy might be beneficial to some class of >> already-deployed >> Bitcoin applications while being detrimental to newer ones. How do we >> preserve the current interests of 0-confs users while enabling upcoming >> interests of fancy L2s to flourish is a good conversation to have. I think. >> >> If there is ecosystem agreement on switching to full-RBF, but 0.24 sounds >> too early, let's defer it to 0.25 or 0.26. I don't think Core has a >> consistent deprecation process w.r.t to policy rules heavily relied-on by >> Bitcoin users, if we do so let sets a precedent satisfying as many folks as >> we can. >> >> Cheers, >> Antoine >> >> [0] >> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2021-May/003033.html >> >> [1] See scenario 3 : >> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2020-June/002758.html >> >> [2] https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/10823#issuecomment-466485121 >> >> [3] And the LN ecosystem does have an interest to fix zero-confs >> security, if "turbo-channels"-like become normalized for mobile nodes >> _______________________________________________ >> bitcoin-dev mailing list >> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org >> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev >> > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 12540 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Proposal: Full-RBF in Bitcoin Core 24.0 2021-06-25 0:23 ` Antoine Riard @ 2021-06-26 16:13 ` Billy Tetrud 2021-06-26 19:00 ` Jeremy 0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: Billy Tetrud @ 2021-06-26 16:13 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Antoine Riard; +Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 12623 bytes --] > services providers are offering zero-conf channels, where you can start to spend instantly [0]. I believe that's an interesting usage I agree those are interesting and useful cases. I suppose I should clarify that when I asked if bitcoin should continue supporting 0-conf transactions, I meant: should we make design decisions based on whether it makes raw 0-conf transactions more or less difficult to double spend on? I do think 0-conf transactions can be useful in situations where there is some level of trust (either direct trust between the interacting parties, or disperse trust that most people won't try to double spend, perhaps because the transaction is small or their identity is tied to it). Fidelity bonds sound like an interesting way to mitigate sybil attacks in a reputation system. On Thu, Jun 24, 2021 at 5:23 PM Antoine Riard <antoine.riard@gmail•com> wrote: > > Do we as a community want to support 0-conf payments in any way at this > > point? It seems rather silly to make software design decisions to > > accommodate 0-conf payments when there are better mechanisms for fast > > payments (ie lightning). > > Well, we have zero-conf LN channels ? Actually, Lightning channel funding > transactions should be buried under a few blocks, though few services > providers are offering zero-conf channels, where you can start to spend > instantly [0]. I believe that's an interesting usage, though IMHO as > mentioned we can explore different security models to make 0-conf safe > (reputation/fidelity-bond). > > > One question I have is: how does software generally inform the user about > 0-conf payment detection? > > Yes generally it's something like an "Unconfirmed" annotation on incoming > txn, though at least this is what Blockstream Green or Electrum are doing. > > > But I > suppose it would depend on how often 0-conf is used in the bitcoin > ecosystem at this point, which I don't have any data on. > > There are few Bitcoin services well-known to rely on 0-conf. Beyond how > much of the Bitcoin traffic is tied to a 0-conf is a hard question, a lot > of 0-confs service providers are going to be reluctant to share the > information, for a really good reason you will learn a subset of their > business volumes. > > I'll see if I can come up with some Fermi estimation on this front. > > [0] https://www.bitrefill.com/thor-turbo-channels/ > > Le mer. 16 juin 2021 à 20:58, Billy Tetrud <billy.tetrud@gmail•com> a > écrit : > >> Russel O'Connor recently opined >> <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-June/019061.html> >> that RBF should be standard treatment of all transactions, rather than as a >> transaction opt-in/out. I agree with that. Any configuration in a >> transaction that has not been committed into a block yet simply can't be >> relied upon. Miners also have a clear incentive to ignore RBF rules and >> mine anything that passes consensus. At best opting out of RBF is a weak >> defense, and at worst it's simply a false sense of security that is likely >> to actively lead to theft events. >> >> Do we as a community want to support 0-conf payments in any way at this >> point? It seems rather silly to make software design decisions to >> accommodate 0-conf payments when there are better mechanisms for fast >> payments (ie lightning). >> >> One question I have is: how does software generally inform the user about >> 0-conf payment detection? Does software generally tell the user something >> along the lines of "This payment has not been finalized yet. All recipients >> should wait until the transaction has at least 1 confirmation, and most >> recipients should wait for 6 confirmations" ? I think unless we pressure >> software to be very explicit about what counts as finality, users will >> simply continue to do what they've always done. Rolling out this policy >> change over the course of a year or two seems fine, no need to rush. But I >> suppose it would depend on how often 0-conf is used in the bitcoin >> ecosystem at this point, which I don't have any data on. >> >> On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 10:00 AM Antoine Riard via bitcoin-dev < >> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I'm writing to propose deprecation of opt-in RBF in favor of full-RBF as >>> the Bitcoin Core's default replacement policy in version 24.0. As a >>> reminder, the next release is 22.0, aimed for August 1st, assuming >>> agreement is reached, this policy change would enter into deployment phase >>> a year from now. >>> >>> Even if this replacement policy has been deemed as highly controversial >>> a few years ago, ongoing and anticipated changes in the Bitcoin ecosystem >>> are motivating this proposal. >>> >>> # RBF opt-out as a DoS Vector against Multi-Party Funded Transactions >>> >>> As explained in "On Mempool Funny Games against Multi-Party Funded >>> Transactions'', 2nd issue [0], an attacker can easily DoS a multi-party >>> funded transactions by propagating an RBF opt-out double-spend of its >>> contributed input before the honest transaction is broadcasted by the >>> protocol orchester. DoSes are qualified in the sense of either an attacker >>> wasting timevalue of victim's inputs or forcing exhaustion of the >>> fee-bumping reserve. >>> >>> This affects a series of Bitcoin protocols such as Coinjoin, onchain >>> DLCs and dual-funded LN channels. As those protocols are still in the early >>> phase of deployment, it doesn't seem to have been executed in the wild for >>> now. That said, considering that dual-funded are more efficient from a >>> liquidity standpoint, we can expect them to be widely relied on, once >>> Lightning enters in a more mature phase. At that point, it should become >>> economically rational for liquidity service providers to launch those DoS >>> attacks against their competitors to hijack user traffic. >>> >>> Beyond that, presence of those DoSes will complicate the design and >>> deployment of multi-party Bitcoin protocols such as payment >>> pools/multi-party channels. Note, Lightning Pool isn't affected as there is >>> a preliminary stage where batch participants are locked-in their funds >>> within an account witnessScript shared with the orchestrer. >>> >>> Of course, even assuming full-rbf, propagation of the multi-party funded >>> transactions can still be interfered with by an attacker, simply >>> broadcasting a double-spend with a feerate equivalent to the honest >>> transaction. However, it tightens the attack scenario to a scorched earth >>> approach, where the attacker has to commit equivalent fee-bumping reserve >>> to maintain the pinning and might lose the "competing" fees to miners. >>> >>> # RBF opt-out as a Mempools Partitions Vector >>> >>> A longer-term issue is the risk of mempools malicious partitions, where >>> an attacker exploits network topology or divergence in mempools policies to >>> partition network mempools in different subsets. From then a wide range of >>> attacks can be envisioned such as package pinning [1], artificial >>> congestion to provoke LN channels closure or manipulation of >>> fee-estimator's feerate (the Core's one wouldn't be affected as it relies >>> on block confirmation, though other fee estimators designs deployed across >>> the ecosystem are likely going to be affected). >>> >>> Traditionally, mempools partitions have been gauged as a spontaneous >>> outcome of a distributed systems like Bitcoin p2p network and I'm not aware >>> it has been studied in-depth for adversarial purposes. Though, deployment >>> of second-layer >>> protocols, heavily relying on sanity of a local mempool for >>> fee-estimation and robust propagation of their time-sensitive transactions >>> might lead to reconsider this position. Acknowledging this, RBF opt-out is >>> a low-cost partitioning tool, of which the existence nullifies most of >>> potential progresses to mitigate malicious partitioning. >>> >>> >>> To resume, opt-in RBF doesn't suit well deployment of robust >>> second-layers protocol, even if those issues are still early and deserve >>> more research. At the same time, I believe a meaningful subset of the >>> ecosystem are still relying >>> on 0-confs transactions, even if their security is relying on far weaker >>> assumptions (opt-in RBF rule is a policy rule, not a consensus one) [2] A >>> rapid change of Core's mempool rules would be harming their quality of >>> services and should be >>> weighed carefully. On the other hand, it would be great to nudge them >>> towards more secure handling of their 0-confs flows [3] >>> >>> Let's examine what could be deployed ecosystem-wise as enhancements to >>> the 0-confs security model. >>> >>> # Proactive security models : Double-spend Monitoring/Receiver-side >>> Fee-Topping with Package Relay >>> >>> From an attacker viewpoint, opt-in RBF isn't a big blocker to successful >>> double-spends. Any motivated attacker can modify Core to mass-connect to a >>> wide portion of the network, announce txA to this subset, announce txA' to >>> the >>> merchant. TxA' propagation will be encumbered by the privacy-preserving >>> inventory timers (`OUTBOUND_INVENTORY_BROADCAST_INTERVAL`), of which an >>> attacker has no care to respect. >>> >>> To detect a successful double-spend attempt, a Bitcoin service should >>> run few full-nodes with well-spread connection graphs and unlinkable >>> between them, to avoid being identified then maliciously partitioned from >>> the rest of the network. >>> >>> I believe this tactic is already deployed by few Bitcoin services, and >>> even one can throw flame at it because it over consumes network resources >>> (bandwidth, connection slots, ...), it does procure a security advantage to >>> the ones doing it. >>> >>> One further improvement on top of this protection could be to react >>> after the double-spend detection by attaching a CPFP to the merchant >>> transaction, with a higher package feerate than the double-spend. Expected >>> deployment of package-relay as a p2p mechanism/mempool policy in Bitcoin >>> Core should enable it to do so. >>> >>> # Reactive security models : EconomicReputation-based Compensations >>> >>> Another approach could be to react after the fact if a double-spend has >>> been qualified. If the sender is already known to the service provider, the >>> service account can be slashed. If the sender is a low-trusted >>> counterparty to the merchant, "side-trust" models could be relied on. For >>> e.g a LN pubkey with a stacked reputation from your autopilot, LSATs, stake >>> certificates, a HTLC-as-a-fidelity-bond, ... The space is quite wide there >>> but I foresee those trust-minimized, decentralized solutions being adopted >>> by the LN ecosystem to patch the risks when you enter in a channel/HTLC >>> operation with an anonymous counterparty. >>> >>> What other cool new tools could be considered to enhance 0-confs >>> security ? >>> >>> To conclude, let's avoid replaying the contentious threads of a few >>> years ago. What this new thread highlights is the fact that a transaction >>> relay/mempool acceptance policy might be beneficial to some class of >>> already-deployed >>> Bitcoin applications while being detrimental to newer ones. How do we >>> preserve the current interests of 0-confs users while enabling upcoming >>> interests of fancy L2s to flourish is a good conversation to have. I think. >>> >>> If there is ecosystem agreement on switching to full-RBF, but 0.24 >>> sounds too early, let's defer it to 0.25 or 0.26. I don't think Core has a >>> consistent deprecation process w.r.t to policy rules heavily relied-on by >>> Bitcoin users, if we do so let sets a precedent satisfying as many folks as >>> we can. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Antoine >>> >>> [0] >>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2021-May/003033.html >>> >>> [1] See scenario 3 : >>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2020-June/002758.html >>> >>> [2] https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/10823#issuecomment-466485121 >>> >>> [3] And the LN ecosystem does have an interest to fix zero-confs >>> security, if "turbo-channels"-like become normalized for mobile nodes >>> _______________________________________________ >>> bitcoin-dev mailing list >>> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org >>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev >>> >> [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 13781 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Proposal: Full-RBF in Bitcoin Core 24.0 2021-06-26 16:13 ` Billy Tetrud @ 2021-06-26 19:00 ` Jeremy 2021-06-30 14:06 ` Corey Haddad 0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: Jeremy @ 2021-06-26 19:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Billy Tetrud, Bitcoin Protocol Discussion [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 13255 bytes --] If the parties trust each other, rbf is still opt-in. Just don't do it? On Sat, Jun 26, 2021, 9:30 AM Billy Tetrud via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > > services providers are offering zero-conf channels, where you can start > to spend instantly [0]. I believe that's an interesting usage > > I agree those are interesting and useful cases. I suppose I should clarify > that when I asked if bitcoin should continue supporting 0-conf > transactions, I meant: should we make design decisions based on whether it > makes raw 0-conf transactions more or less difficult to double spend on? I > do think 0-conf transactions can be useful in situations where there is > some level of trust (either direct trust between the interacting parties, > or disperse trust that most people won't try to double spend, perhaps > because the transaction is small or their identity is tied to it). Fidelity > bonds sound like an interesting way to mitigate sybil attacks in a > reputation system. > > On Thu, Jun 24, 2021 at 5:23 PM Antoine Riard <antoine.riard@gmail•com> > wrote: > >> > Do we as a community want to support 0-conf payments in any way at this >> > point? It seems rather silly to make software design decisions to >> > accommodate 0-conf payments when there are better mechanisms for fast >> > payments (ie lightning). >> >> Well, we have zero-conf LN channels ? Actually, Lightning channel funding >> transactions should be buried under a few blocks, though few services >> providers are offering zero-conf channels, where you can start to spend >> instantly [0]. I believe that's an interesting usage, though IMHO as >> mentioned we can explore different security models to make 0-conf safe >> (reputation/fidelity-bond). >> >> > One question I have is: how does software generally inform the user >> about >> 0-conf payment detection? >> >> Yes generally it's something like an "Unconfirmed" annotation on incoming >> txn, though at least this is what Blockstream Green or Electrum are doing. >> >> > But I >> suppose it would depend on how often 0-conf is used in the bitcoin >> ecosystem at this point, which I don't have any data on. >> >> There are few Bitcoin services well-known to rely on 0-conf. Beyond how >> much of the Bitcoin traffic is tied to a 0-conf is a hard question, a lot >> of 0-confs service providers are going to be reluctant to share the >> information, for a really good reason you will learn a subset of their >> business volumes. >> >> I'll see if I can come up with some Fermi estimation on this front. >> >> [0] https://www.bitrefill.com/thor-turbo-channels/ >> >> Le mer. 16 juin 2021 à 20:58, Billy Tetrud <billy.tetrud@gmail•com> a >> écrit : >> >>> Russel O'Connor recently opined >>> <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-June/019061.html> >>> that RBF should be standard treatment of all transactions, rather than as a >>> transaction opt-in/out. I agree with that. Any configuration in a >>> transaction that has not been committed into a block yet simply can't be >>> relied upon. Miners also have a clear incentive to ignore RBF rules and >>> mine anything that passes consensus. At best opting out of RBF is a weak >>> defense, and at worst it's simply a false sense of security that is likely >>> to actively lead to theft events. >>> >>> Do we as a community want to support 0-conf payments in any way at this >>> point? It seems rather silly to make software design decisions to >>> accommodate 0-conf payments when there are better mechanisms for fast >>> payments (ie lightning). >>> >>> One question I have is: how does software generally inform the user >>> about 0-conf payment detection? Does software generally tell the user >>> something along the lines of "This payment has not been finalized yet. All >>> recipients should wait until the transaction has at least 1 confirmation, >>> and most recipients should wait for 6 confirmations" ? I think unless we >>> pressure software to be very explicit about what counts as finality, users >>> will simply continue to do what they've always done. Rolling out this >>> policy change over the course of a year or two seems fine, no need to rush. >>> But I suppose it would depend on how often 0-conf is used in the bitcoin >>> ecosystem at this point, which I don't have any data on. >>> >>> On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 10:00 AM Antoine Riard via bitcoin-dev < >>> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> I'm writing to propose deprecation of opt-in RBF in favor of full-RBF >>>> as the Bitcoin Core's default replacement policy in version 24.0. As a >>>> reminder, the next release is 22.0, aimed for August 1st, assuming >>>> agreement is reached, this policy change would enter into deployment phase >>>> a year from now. >>>> >>>> Even if this replacement policy has been deemed as highly controversial >>>> a few years ago, ongoing and anticipated changes in the Bitcoin ecosystem >>>> are motivating this proposal. >>>> >>>> # RBF opt-out as a DoS Vector against Multi-Party Funded Transactions >>>> >>>> As explained in "On Mempool Funny Games against Multi-Party Funded >>>> Transactions'', 2nd issue [0], an attacker can easily DoS a multi-party >>>> funded transactions by propagating an RBF opt-out double-spend of its >>>> contributed input before the honest transaction is broadcasted by the >>>> protocol orchester. DoSes are qualified in the sense of either an attacker >>>> wasting timevalue of victim's inputs or forcing exhaustion of the >>>> fee-bumping reserve. >>>> >>>> This affects a series of Bitcoin protocols such as Coinjoin, onchain >>>> DLCs and dual-funded LN channels. As those protocols are still in the early >>>> phase of deployment, it doesn't seem to have been executed in the wild for >>>> now. That said, considering that dual-funded are more efficient from a >>>> liquidity standpoint, we can expect them to be widely relied on, once >>>> Lightning enters in a more mature phase. At that point, it should become >>>> economically rational for liquidity service providers to launch those DoS >>>> attacks against their competitors to hijack user traffic. >>>> >>>> Beyond that, presence of those DoSes will complicate the design and >>>> deployment of multi-party Bitcoin protocols such as payment >>>> pools/multi-party channels. Note, Lightning Pool isn't affected as there is >>>> a preliminary stage where batch participants are locked-in their funds >>>> within an account witnessScript shared with the orchestrer. >>>> >>>> Of course, even assuming full-rbf, propagation of the multi-party >>>> funded transactions can still be interfered with by an attacker, simply >>>> broadcasting a double-spend with a feerate equivalent to the honest >>>> transaction. However, it tightens the attack scenario to a scorched earth >>>> approach, where the attacker has to commit equivalent fee-bumping reserve >>>> to maintain the pinning and might lose the "competing" fees to miners. >>>> >>>> # RBF opt-out as a Mempools Partitions Vector >>>> >>>> A longer-term issue is the risk of mempools malicious partitions, where >>>> an attacker exploits network topology or divergence in mempools policies to >>>> partition network mempools in different subsets. From then a wide range of >>>> attacks can be envisioned such as package pinning [1], artificial >>>> congestion to provoke LN channels closure or manipulation of >>>> fee-estimator's feerate (the Core's one wouldn't be affected as it relies >>>> on block confirmation, though other fee estimators designs deployed across >>>> the ecosystem are likely going to be affected). >>>> >>>> Traditionally, mempools partitions have been gauged as a spontaneous >>>> outcome of a distributed systems like Bitcoin p2p network and I'm not aware >>>> it has been studied in-depth for adversarial purposes. Though, deployment >>>> of second-layer >>>> protocols, heavily relying on sanity of a local mempool for >>>> fee-estimation and robust propagation of their time-sensitive transactions >>>> might lead to reconsider this position. Acknowledging this, RBF opt-out is >>>> a low-cost partitioning tool, of which the existence nullifies most of >>>> potential progresses to mitigate malicious partitioning. >>>> >>>> >>>> To resume, opt-in RBF doesn't suit well deployment of robust >>>> second-layers protocol, even if those issues are still early and deserve >>>> more research. At the same time, I believe a meaningful subset of the >>>> ecosystem are still relying >>>> on 0-confs transactions, even if their security is relying on far >>>> weaker assumptions (opt-in RBF rule is a policy rule, not a consensus one) >>>> [2] A rapid change of Core's mempool rules would be harming their quality >>>> of services and should be >>>> weighed carefully. On the other hand, it would be great to nudge them >>>> towards more secure handling of their 0-confs flows [3] >>>> >>>> Let's examine what could be deployed ecosystem-wise as enhancements to >>>> the 0-confs security model. >>>> >>>> # Proactive security models : Double-spend Monitoring/Receiver-side >>>> Fee-Topping with Package Relay >>>> >>>> From an attacker viewpoint, opt-in RBF isn't a big blocker to >>>> successful double-spends. Any motivated attacker can modify Core to >>>> mass-connect to a wide portion of the network, announce txA to this subset, >>>> announce txA' to the >>>> merchant. TxA' propagation will be encumbered by the privacy-preserving >>>> inventory timers (`OUTBOUND_INVENTORY_BROADCAST_INTERVAL`), of which an >>>> attacker has no care to respect. >>>> >>>> To detect a successful double-spend attempt, a Bitcoin service should >>>> run few full-nodes with well-spread connection graphs and unlinkable >>>> between them, to avoid being identified then maliciously partitioned from >>>> the rest of the network. >>>> >>>> I believe this tactic is already deployed by few Bitcoin services, and >>>> even one can throw flame at it because it over consumes network resources >>>> (bandwidth, connection slots, ...), it does procure a security advantage to >>>> the ones doing it. >>>> >>>> One further improvement on top of this protection could be to react >>>> after the double-spend detection by attaching a CPFP to the merchant >>>> transaction, with a higher package feerate than the double-spend. Expected >>>> deployment of package-relay as a p2p mechanism/mempool policy in Bitcoin >>>> Core should enable it to do so. >>>> >>>> # Reactive security models : EconomicReputation-based Compensations >>>> >>>> Another approach could be to react after the fact if a double-spend has >>>> been qualified. If the sender is already known to the service provider, the >>>> service account can be slashed. If the sender is a low-trusted >>>> counterparty to the merchant, "side-trust" models could be relied on. For >>>> e.g a LN pubkey with a stacked reputation from your autopilot, LSATs, stake >>>> certificates, a HTLC-as-a-fidelity-bond, ... The space is quite wide there >>>> but I foresee those trust-minimized, decentralized solutions being adopted >>>> by the LN ecosystem to patch the risks when you enter in a channel/HTLC >>>> operation with an anonymous counterparty. >>>> >>>> What other cool new tools could be considered to enhance 0-confs >>>> security ? >>>> >>>> To conclude, let's avoid replaying the contentious threads of a few >>>> years ago. What this new thread highlights is the fact that a transaction >>>> relay/mempool acceptance policy might be beneficial to some class of >>>> already-deployed >>>> Bitcoin applications while being detrimental to newer ones. How do we >>>> preserve the current interests of 0-confs users while enabling upcoming >>>> interests of fancy L2s to flourish is a good conversation to have. I think. >>>> >>>> If there is ecosystem agreement on switching to full-RBF, but 0.24 >>>> sounds too early, let's defer it to 0.25 or 0.26. I don't think Core has a >>>> consistent deprecation process w.r.t to policy rules heavily relied-on by >>>> Bitcoin users, if we do so let sets a precedent satisfying as many folks as >>>> we can. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Antoine >>>> >>>> [0] >>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2021-May/003033.html >>>> >>>> [1] See scenario 3 : >>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2020-June/002758.html >>>> >>>> [2] >>>> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/10823#issuecomment-466485121 >>>> >>>> [3] And the LN ecosystem does have an interest to fix zero-confs >>>> security, if "turbo-channels"-like become normalized for mobile nodes >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list >>>> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org >>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 14831 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Proposal: Full-RBF in Bitcoin Core 24.0 2021-06-26 19:00 ` Jeremy @ 2021-06-30 14:06 ` Corey Haddad 2021-06-30 19:21 ` Billy Tetrud 0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: Corey Haddad @ 2021-06-30 14:06 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Jeremy, Bitcoin Protocol Discussion [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 14872 bytes --] We cannot prevent people from choosing to take an action based on an unconfirmed transaction. Even though it is trivial to have a double-spending transaction confirmed, accepting a 0-conf tx can be rational in many cases. 0-conf can be interpreted as the customer signaling their 'intent to pay', and where there is an established relationship between customer and merchant, or where there merchant is providing a cancelable e-service, signaling intent may be enough. These use cases do not depend on making it difficult for the user to attempt to double-spend the merchant. Bitcoin is a system designed around a consensus on the blockchain, not the mempool. I am in favor of providing the spender of bitcoins with all possible tools and methods to help them submit their transactions - double-spending or not - to miners for consideration. More than making RBF the default, I would prefer to see nodes forward any transaction conflicting transaction, so long as it has a higher fee. Is there a reason this would be undesirable? Corey On Sat, Jun 26, 2021 at 3:00 PM Jeremy via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > If the parties trust each other, rbf is still opt-in. Just don't do it? > > On Sat, Jun 26, 2021, 9:30 AM Billy Tetrud via bitcoin-dev < > bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > >> > services providers are offering zero-conf channels, where you can >> start to spend instantly [0]. I believe that's an interesting usage >> >> I agree those are interesting and useful cases. I suppose I should >> clarify that when I asked if bitcoin should continue supporting 0-conf >> transactions, I meant: should we make design decisions based on whether it >> makes raw 0-conf transactions more or less difficult to double spend on? I >> do think 0-conf transactions can be useful in situations where there is >> some level of trust (either direct trust between the interacting parties, >> or disperse trust that most people won't try to double spend, perhaps >> because the transaction is small or their identity is tied to it). Fidelity >> bonds sound like an interesting way to mitigate sybil attacks in a >> reputation system. >> >> On Thu, Jun 24, 2021 at 5:23 PM Antoine Riard <antoine.riard@gmail•com> >> wrote: >> >>> > Do we as a community want to support 0-conf payments in any way at this >>> > point? It seems rather silly to make software design decisions to >>> > accommodate 0-conf payments when there are better mechanisms for fast >>> > payments (ie lightning). >>> >>> Well, we have zero-conf LN channels ? Actually, Lightning channel >>> funding transactions should be buried under a few blocks, though few >>> services providers are offering zero-conf channels, where you can start to >>> spend instantly [0]. I believe that's an interesting usage, though IMHO as >>> mentioned we can explore different security models to make 0-conf safe >>> (reputation/fidelity-bond). >>> >>> > One question I have is: how does software generally inform the user >>> about >>> 0-conf payment detection? >>> >>> Yes generally it's something like an "Unconfirmed" annotation on >>> incoming txn, though at least this is what Blockstream Green or Electrum >>> are doing. >>> >>> > But I >>> suppose it would depend on how often 0-conf is used in the bitcoin >>> ecosystem at this point, which I don't have any data on. >>> >>> There are few Bitcoin services well-known to rely on 0-conf. Beyond how >>> much of the Bitcoin traffic is tied to a 0-conf is a hard question, a lot >>> of 0-confs service providers are going to be reluctant to share the >>> information, for a really good reason you will learn a subset of their >>> business volumes. >>> >>> I'll see if I can come up with some Fermi estimation on this front. >>> >>> [0] https://www.bitrefill.com/thor-turbo-channels/ >>> >>> Le mer. 16 juin 2021 à 20:58, Billy Tetrud <billy.tetrud@gmail•com> a >>> écrit : >>> >>>> Russel O'Connor recently opined >>>> <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-June/019061.html> >>>> that RBF should be standard treatment of all transactions, rather than as a >>>> transaction opt-in/out. I agree with that. Any configuration in a >>>> transaction that has not been committed into a block yet simply can't be >>>> relied upon. Miners also have a clear incentive to ignore RBF rules and >>>> mine anything that passes consensus. At best opting out of RBF is a weak >>>> defense, and at worst it's simply a false sense of security that is likely >>>> to actively lead to theft events. >>>> >>>> Do we as a community want to support 0-conf payments in any way at this >>>> point? It seems rather silly to make software design decisions to >>>> accommodate 0-conf payments when there are better mechanisms for fast >>>> payments (ie lightning). >>>> >>>> One question I have is: how does software generally inform the user >>>> about 0-conf payment detection? Does software generally tell the user >>>> something along the lines of "This payment has not been finalized yet. All >>>> recipients should wait until the transaction has at least 1 confirmation, >>>> and most recipients should wait for 6 confirmations" ? I think unless we >>>> pressure software to be very explicit about what counts as finality, users >>>> will simply continue to do what they've always done. Rolling out this >>>> policy change over the course of a year or two seems fine, no need to rush. >>>> But I suppose it would depend on how often 0-conf is used in the bitcoin >>>> ecosystem at this point, which I don't have any data on. >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 10:00 AM Antoine Riard via bitcoin-dev < >>>> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> I'm writing to propose deprecation of opt-in RBF in favor of full-RBF >>>>> as the Bitcoin Core's default replacement policy in version 24.0. As a >>>>> reminder, the next release is 22.0, aimed for August 1st, assuming >>>>> agreement is reached, this policy change would enter into deployment phase >>>>> a year from now. >>>>> >>>>> Even if this replacement policy has been deemed as highly >>>>> controversial a few years ago, ongoing and anticipated changes in the >>>>> Bitcoin ecosystem are motivating this proposal. >>>>> >>>>> # RBF opt-out as a DoS Vector against Multi-Party Funded Transactions >>>>> >>>>> As explained in "On Mempool Funny Games against Multi-Party Funded >>>>> Transactions'', 2nd issue [0], an attacker can easily DoS a multi-party >>>>> funded transactions by propagating an RBF opt-out double-spend of its >>>>> contributed input before the honest transaction is broadcasted by the >>>>> protocol orchester. DoSes are qualified in the sense of either an attacker >>>>> wasting timevalue of victim's inputs or forcing exhaustion of the >>>>> fee-bumping reserve. >>>>> >>>>> This affects a series of Bitcoin protocols such as Coinjoin, onchain >>>>> DLCs and dual-funded LN channels. As those protocols are still in the early >>>>> phase of deployment, it doesn't seem to have been executed in the wild for >>>>> now. That said, considering that dual-funded are more efficient from a >>>>> liquidity standpoint, we can expect them to be widely relied on, once >>>>> Lightning enters in a more mature phase. At that point, it should become >>>>> economically rational for liquidity service providers to launch those DoS >>>>> attacks against their competitors to hijack user traffic. >>>>> >>>>> Beyond that, presence of those DoSes will complicate the design and >>>>> deployment of multi-party Bitcoin protocols such as payment >>>>> pools/multi-party channels. Note, Lightning Pool isn't affected as there is >>>>> a preliminary stage where batch participants are locked-in their funds >>>>> within an account witnessScript shared with the orchestrer. >>>>> >>>>> Of course, even assuming full-rbf, propagation of the multi-party >>>>> funded transactions can still be interfered with by an attacker, simply >>>>> broadcasting a double-spend with a feerate equivalent to the honest >>>>> transaction. However, it tightens the attack scenario to a scorched earth >>>>> approach, where the attacker has to commit equivalent fee-bumping reserve >>>>> to maintain the pinning and might lose the "competing" fees to miners. >>>>> >>>>> # RBF opt-out as a Mempools Partitions Vector >>>>> >>>>> A longer-term issue is the risk of mempools malicious partitions, >>>>> where an attacker exploits network topology or divergence in mempools >>>>> policies to partition network mempools in different subsets. From then a >>>>> wide range of attacks can be envisioned such as package pinning [1], >>>>> artificial congestion to provoke LN channels closure or manipulation of >>>>> fee-estimator's feerate (the Core's one wouldn't be affected as it relies >>>>> on block confirmation, though other fee estimators designs deployed across >>>>> the ecosystem are likely going to be affected). >>>>> >>>>> Traditionally, mempools partitions have been gauged as a spontaneous >>>>> outcome of a distributed systems like Bitcoin p2p network and I'm not aware >>>>> it has been studied in-depth for adversarial purposes. Though, deployment >>>>> of second-layer >>>>> protocols, heavily relying on sanity of a local mempool for >>>>> fee-estimation and robust propagation of their time-sensitive transactions >>>>> might lead to reconsider this position. Acknowledging this, RBF opt-out is >>>>> a low-cost partitioning tool, of which the existence nullifies most of >>>>> potential progresses to mitigate malicious partitioning. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> To resume, opt-in RBF doesn't suit well deployment of robust >>>>> second-layers protocol, even if those issues are still early and deserve >>>>> more research. At the same time, I believe a meaningful subset of the >>>>> ecosystem are still relying >>>>> on 0-confs transactions, even if their security is relying on far >>>>> weaker assumptions (opt-in RBF rule is a policy rule, not a consensus one) >>>>> [2] A rapid change of Core's mempool rules would be harming their quality >>>>> of services and should be >>>>> weighed carefully. On the other hand, it would be great to nudge them >>>>> towards more secure handling of their 0-confs flows [3] >>>>> >>>>> Let's examine what could be deployed ecosystem-wise as enhancements to >>>>> the 0-confs security model. >>>>> >>>>> # Proactive security models : Double-spend Monitoring/Receiver-side >>>>> Fee-Topping with Package Relay >>>>> >>>>> From an attacker viewpoint, opt-in RBF isn't a big blocker to >>>>> successful double-spends. Any motivated attacker can modify Core to >>>>> mass-connect to a wide portion of the network, announce txA to this subset, >>>>> announce txA' to the >>>>> merchant. TxA' propagation will be encumbered by the >>>>> privacy-preserving inventory timers >>>>> (`OUTBOUND_INVENTORY_BROADCAST_INTERVAL`), of which an attacker has no care >>>>> to respect. >>>>> >>>>> To detect a successful double-spend attempt, a Bitcoin service should >>>>> run few full-nodes with well-spread connection graphs and unlinkable >>>>> between them, to avoid being identified then maliciously partitioned from >>>>> the rest of the network. >>>>> >>>>> I believe this tactic is already deployed by few Bitcoin services, and >>>>> even one can throw flame at it because it over consumes network resources >>>>> (bandwidth, connection slots, ...), it does procure a security advantage to >>>>> the ones doing it. >>>>> >>>>> One further improvement on top of this protection could be to react >>>>> after the double-spend detection by attaching a CPFP to the merchant >>>>> transaction, with a higher package feerate than the double-spend. Expected >>>>> deployment of package-relay as a p2p mechanism/mempool policy in Bitcoin >>>>> Core should enable it to do so. >>>>> >>>>> # Reactive security models : EconomicReputation-based Compensations >>>>> >>>>> Another approach could be to react after the fact if a double-spend >>>>> has been qualified. If the sender is already known to the service provider, >>>>> the service account can be slashed. If the sender is a low-trusted >>>>> counterparty to the merchant, "side-trust" models could be relied on. For >>>>> e.g a LN pubkey with a stacked reputation from your autopilot, LSATs, stake >>>>> certificates, a HTLC-as-a-fidelity-bond, ... The space is quite wide there >>>>> but I foresee those trust-minimized, decentralized solutions being adopted >>>>> by the LN ecosystem to patch the risks when you enter in a channel/HTLC >>>>> operation with an anonymous counterparty. >>>>> >>>>> What other cool new tools could be considered to enhance 0-confs >>>>> security ? >>>>> >>>>> To conclude, let's avoid replaying the contentious threads of a few >>>>> years ago. What this new thread highlights is the fact that a transaction >>>>> relay/mempool acceptance policy might be beneficial to some class of >>>>> already-deployed >>>>> Bitcoin applications while being detrimental to newer ones. How do we >>>>> preserve the current interests of 0-confs users while enabling upcoming >>>>> interests of fancy L2s to flourish is a good conversation to have. I think. >>>>> >>>>> If there is ecosystem agreement on switching to full-RBF, but 0.24 >>>>> sounds too early, let's defer it to 0.25 or 0.26. I don't think Core has a >>>>> consistent deprecation process w.r.t to policy rules heavily relied-on by >>>>> Bitcoin users, if we do so let sets a precedent satisfying as many folks as >>>>> we can. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Antoine >>>>> >>>>> [0] >>>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2021-May/003033.html >>>>> >>>>> [1] See scenario 3 : >>>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2020-June/002758.html >>>>> >>>>> [2] >>>>> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/10823#issuecomment-466485121 >>>>> >>>>> [3] And the LN ecosystem does have an interest to fix zero-confs >>>>> security, if "turbo-channels"-like become normalized for mobile nodes >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list >>>>> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org >>>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> bitcoin-dev mailing list >> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org >> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev >> > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 17007 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Proposal: Full-RBF in Bitcoin Core 24.0 2021-06-30 14:06 ` Corey Haddad @ 2021-06-30 19:21 ` Billy Tetrud 0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Billy Tetrud @ 2021-06-30 19:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Corey Haddad, Bitcoin Protocol Discussion [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 16378 bytes --] > I would prefer to see nodes forward any transaction conflicting transaction, so long as it has a higher fee. Is there a reason this would be undesirable? There is a spam risk there, where someone could intend to pay a fee of 1000 sats, but every time they make a payment, they generate a transaction with the minimum fee, then a transaction with a fee 1 sat higher, etc etc until they've generated about 1000 sats. So I think what nodes do is that they only forward transactions that have a fee at least X sats higher than one they already have in their mempool. The minimum delta between fees should probably be just as high as the absolute minimum fee, since it accounts for the cost of broadcasting the transaction. But on broader strokes, as long as you're bumping the fee by a significant amount, I agree that any transaction should be forwarded regardless of any RBF flag. On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 7:07 AM Corey Haddad via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > We cannot prevent people from choosing to take an action based on an > unconfirmed transaction. Even though it is trivial to have a > double-spending transaction confirmed, accepting a 0-conf tx can be > rational in many cases. 0-conf can be interpreted as the customer > signaling their 'intent to pay', and where there is an established > relationship between customer and merchant, or where there merchant is > providing a cancelable e-service, signaling intent may be enough. These use > cases do not depend on making it difficult for the user to attempt to > double-spend the merchant. > > Bitcoin is a system designed around a consensus on the blockchain, not the > mempool. I am in favor of providing the spender of bitcoins with all > possible tools and methods to help them submit their transactions - > double-spending or not - to miners for consideration. More than making RBF > the default, I would prefer to see nodes forward any transaction > conflicting transaction, so long as it has a higher fee. Is there a reason > this would be undesirable? > > Corey > > On Sat, Jun 26, 2021 at 3:00 PM Jeremy via bitcoin-dev < > bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > >> If the parties trust each other, rbf is still opt-in. Just don't do it? >> >> On Sat, Jun 26, 2021, 9:30 AM Billy Tetrud via bitcoin-dev < >> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote: >> >>> > services providers are offering zero-conf channels, where you can >>> start to spend instantly [0]. I believe that's an interesting usage >>> >>> I agree those are interesting and useful cases. I suppose I should >>> clarify that when I asked if bitcoin should continue supporting 0-conf >>> transactions, I meant: should we make design decisions based on whether it >>> makes raw 0-conf transactions more or less difficult to double spend on? I >>> do think 0-conf transactions can be useful in situations where there is >>> some level of trust (either direct trust between the interacting parties, >>> or disperse trust that most people won't try to double spend, perhaps >>> because the transaction is small or their identity is tied to it). Fidelity >>> bonds sound like an interesting way to mitigate sybil attacks in a >>> reputation system. >>> >>> On Thu, Jun 24, 2021 at 5:23 PM Antoine Riard <antoine.riard@gmail•com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> > Do we as a community want to support 0-conf payments in any way at >>>> this >>>> > point? It seems rather silly to make software design decisions to >>>> > accommodate 0-conf payments when there are better mechanisms for fast >>>> > payments (ie lightning). >>>> >>>> Well, we have zero-conf LN channels ? Actually, Lightning channel >>>> funding transactions should be buried under a few blocks, though few >>>> services providers are offering zero-conf channels, where you can start to >>>> spend instantly [0]. I believe that's an interesting usage, though IMHO as >>>> mentioned we can explore different security models to make 0-conf safe >>>> (reputation/fidelity-bond). >>>> >>>> > One question I have is: how does software generally inform the user >>>> about >>>> 0-conf payment detection? >>>> >>>> Yes generally it's something like an "Unconfirmed" annotation on >>>> incoming txn, though at least this is what Blockstream Green or Electrum >>>> are doing. >>>> >>>> > But I >>>> suppose it would depend on how often 0-conf is used in the bitcoin >>>> ecosystem at this point, which I don't have any data on. >>>> >>>> There are few Bitcoin services well-known to rely on 0-conf. Beyond how >>>> much of the Bitcoin traffic is tied to a 0-conf is a hard question, a lot >>>> of 0-confs service providers are going to be reluctant to share the >>>> information, for a really good reason you will learn a subset of their >>>> business volumes. >>>> >>>> I'll see if I can come up with some Fermi estimation on this front. >>>> >>>> [0] https://www.bitrefill.com/thor-turbo-channels/ >>>> >>>> Le mer. 16 juin 2021 à 20:58, Billy Tetrud <billy.tetrud@gmail•com> a >>>> écrit : >>>> >>>>> Russel O'Connor recently opined >>>>> <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-June/019061.html> >>>>> that RBF should be standard treatment of all transactions, rather than as a >>>>> transaction opt-in/out. I agree with that. Any configuration in a >>>>> transaction that has not been committed into a block yet simply can't be >>>>> relied upon. Miners also have a clear incentive to ignore RBF rules and >>>>> mine anything that passes consensus. At best opting out of RBF is a weak >>>>> defense, and at worst it's simply a false sense of security that is likely >>>>> to actively lead to theft events. >>>>> >>>>> Do we as a community want to support 0-conf payments in any way at >>>>> this point? It seems rather silly to make software design decisions to >>>>> accommodate 0-conf payments when there are better mechanisms for fast >>>>> payments (ie lightning). >>>>> >>>>> One question I have is: how does software generally inform the user >>>>> about 0-conf payment detection? Does software generally tell the user >>>>> something along the lines of "This payment has not been finalized yet. All >>>>> recipients should wait until the transaction has at least 1 confirmation, >>>>> and most recipients should wait for 6 confirmations" ? I think unless we >>>>> pressure software to be very explicit about what counts as finality, users >>>>> will simply continue to do what they've always done. Rolling out this >>>>> policy change over the course of a year or two seems fine, no need to rush. >>>>> But I suppose it would depend on how often 0-conf is used in the bitcoin >>>>> ecosystem at this point, which I don't have any data on. >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 10:00 AM Antoine Riard via bitcoin-dev < >>>>> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm writing to propose deprecation of opt-in RBF in favor of full-RBF >>>>>> as the Bitcoin Core's default replacement policy in version 24.0. As a >>>>>> reminder, the next release is 22.0, aimed for August 1st, assuming >>>>>> agreement is reached, this policy change would enter into deployment phase >>>>>> a year from now. >>>>>> >>>>>> Even if this replacement policy has been deemed as highly >>>>>> controversial a few years ago, ongoing and anticipated changes in the >>>>>> Bitcoin ecosystem are motivating this proposal. >>>>>> >>>>>> # RBF opt-out as a DoS Vector against Multi-Party Funded Transactions >>>>>> >>>>>> As explained in "On Mempool Funny Games against Multi-Party Funded >>>>>> Transactions'', 2nd issue [0], an attacker can easily DoS a multi-party >>>>>> funded transactions by propagating an RBF opt-out double-spend of its >>>>>> contributed input before the honest transaction is broadcasted by the >>>>>> protocol orchester. DoSes are qualified in the sense of either an attacker >>>>>> wasting timevalue of victim's inputs or forcing exhaustion of the >>>>>> fee-bumping reserve. >>>>>> >>>>>> This affects a series of Bitcoin protocols such as Coinjoin, onchain >>>>>> DLCs and dual-funded LN channels. As those protocols are still in the early >>>>>> phase of deployment, it doesn't seem to have been executed in the wild for >>>>>> now. That said, considering that dual-funded are more efficient from a >>>>>> liquidity standpoint, we can expect them to be widely relied on, once >>>>>> Lightning enters in a more mature phase. At that point, it should become >>>>>> economically rational for liquidity service providers to launch those DoS >>>>>> attacks against their competitors to hijack user traffic. >>>>>> >>>>>> Beyond that, presence of those DoSes will complicate the design and >>>>>> deployment of multi-party Bitcoin protocols such as payment >>>>>> pools/multi-party channels. Note, Lightning Pool isn't affected as there is >>>>>> a preliminary stage where batch participants are locked-in their funds >>>>>> within an account witnessScript shared with the orchestrer. >>>>>> >>>>>> Of course, even assuming full-rbf, propagation of the multi-party >>>>>> funded transactions can still be interfered with by an attacker, simply >>>>>> broadcasting a double-spend with a feerate equivalent to the honest >>>>>> transaction. However, it tightens the attack scenario to a scorched earth >>>>>> approach, where the attacker has to commit equivalent fee-bumping reserve >>>>>> to maintain the pinning and might lose the "competing" fees to miners. >>>>>> >>>>>> # RBF opt-out as a Mempools Partitions Vector >>>>>> >>>>>> A longer-term issue is the risk of mempools malicious partitions, >>>>>> where an attacker exploits network topology or divergence in mempools >>>>>> policies to partition network mempools in different subsets. From then a >>>>>> wide range of attacks can be envisioned such as package pinning [1], >>>>>> artificial congestion to provoke LN channels closure or manipulation of >>>>>> fee-estimator's feerate (the Core's one wouldn't be affected as it relies >>>>>> on block confirmation, though other fee estimators designs deployed across >>>>>> the ecosystem are likely going to be affected). >>>>>> >>>>>> Traditionally, mempools partitions have been gauged as a spontaneous >>>>>> outcome of a distributed systems like Bitcoin p2p network and I'm not aware >>>>>> it has been studied in-depth for adversarial purposes. Though, deployment >>>>>> of second-layer >>>>>> protocols, heavily relying on sanity of a local mempool for >>>>>> fee-estimation and robust propagation of their time-sensitive transactions >>>>>> might lead to reconsider this position. Acknowledging this, RBF opt-out is >>>>>> a low-cost partitioning tool, of which the existence nullifies most of >>>>>> potential progresses to mitigate malicious partitioning. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> To resume, opt-in RBF doesn't suit well deployment of robust >>>>>> second-layers protocol, even if those issues are still early and deserve >>>>>> more research. At the same time, I believe a meaningful subset of the >>>>>> ecosystem are still relying >>>>>> on 0-confs transactions, even if their security is relying on far >>>>>> weaker assumptions (opt-in RBF rule is a policy rule, not a consensus one) >>>>>> [2] A rapid change of Core's mempool rules would be harming their quality >>>>>> of services and should be >>>>>> weighed carefully. On the other hand, it would be great to nudge them >>>>>> towards more secure handling of their 0-confs flows [3] >>>>>> >>>>>> Let's examine what could be deployed ecosystem-wise as enhancements >>>>>> to the 0-confs security model. >>>>>> >>>>>> # Proactive security models : Double-spend Monitoring/Receiver-side >>>>>> Fee-Topping with Package Relay >>>>>> >>>>>> From an attacker viewpoint, opt-in RBF isn't a big blocker to >>>>>> successful double-spends. Any motivated attacker can modify Core to >>>>>> mass-connect to a wide portion of the network, announce txA to this subset, >>>>>> announce txA' to the >>>>>> merchant. TxA' propagation will be encumbered by the >>>>>> privacy-preserving inventory timers >>>>>> (`OUTBOUND_INVENTORY_BROADCAST_INTERVAL`), of which an attacker has no care >>>>>> to respect. >>>>>> >>>>>> To detect a successful double-spend attempt, a Bitcoin service should >>>>>> run few full-nodes with well-spread connection graphs and unlinkable >>>>>> between them, to avoid being identified then maliciously partitioned from >>>>>> the rest of the network. >>>>>> >>>>>> I believe this tactic is already deployed by few Bitcoin services, >>>>>> and even one can throw flame at it because it over consumes network >>>>>> resources (bandwidth, connection slots, ...), it does procure a security >>>>>> advantage to the ones doing it. >>>>>> >>>>>> One further improvement on top of this protection could be to react >>>>>> after the double-spend detection by attaching a CPFP to the merchant >>>>>> transaction, with a higher package feerate than the double-spend. Expected >>>>>> deployment of package-relay as a p2p mechanism/mempool policy in Bitcoin >>>>>> Core should enable it to do so. >>>>>> >>>>>> # Reactive security models : EconomicReputation-based Compensations >>>>>> >>>>>> Another approach could be to react after the fact if a double-spend >>>>>> has been qualified. If the sender is already known to the service provider, >>>>>> the service account can be slashed. If the sender is a low-trusted >>>>>> counterparty to the merchant, "side-trust" models could be relied on. For >>>>>> e.g a LN pubkey with a stacked reputation from your autopilot, LSATs, stake >>>>>> certificates, a HTLC-as-a-fidelity-bond, ... The space is quite wide there >>>>>> but I foresee those trust-minimized, decentralized solutions being adopted >>>>>> by the LN ecosystem to patch the risks when you enter in a channel/HTLC >>>>>> operation with an anonymous counterparty. >>>>>> >>>>>> What other cool new tools could be considered to enhance 0-confs >>>>>> security ? >>>>>> >>>>>> To conclude, let's avoid replaying the contentious threads of a few >>>>>> years ago. What this new thread highlights is the fact that a transaction >>>>>> relay/mempool acceptance policy might be beneficial to some class of >>>>>> already-deployed >>>>>> Bitcoin applications while being detrimental to newer ones. How do we >>>>>> preserve the current interests of 0-confs users while enabling upcoming >>>>>> interests of fancy L2s to flourish is a good conversation to have. I think. >>>>>> >>>>>> If there is ecosystem agreement on switching to full-RBF, but 0.24 >>>>>> sounds too early, let's defer it to 0.25 or 0.26. I don't think Core has a >>>>>> consistent deprecation process w.r.t to policy rules heavily relied-on by >>>>>> Bitcoin users, if we do so let sets a precedent satisfying as many folks as >>>>>> we can. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Antoine >>>>>> >>>>>> [0] >>>>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2021-May/003033.html >>>>>> >>>>>> [1] See scenario 3 : >>>>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2020-June/002758.html >>>>>> >>>>>> [2] >>>>>> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/10823#issuecomment-466485121 >>>>>> >>>>>> [3] And the LN ecosystem does have an interest to fix zero-confs >>>>>> security, if "turbo-channels"-like become normalized for mobile nodes >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list >>>>>> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org >>>>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> bitcoin-dev mailing list >>> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org >>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> bitcoin-dev mailing list >> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org >> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev >> > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 18515 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Proposal: Full-RBF in Bitcoin Core 24.0 2021-06-15 16:55 [bitcoin-dev] Proposal: Full-RBF in Bitcoin Core 24.0 Antoine Riard 2021-06-17 0:58 ` Billy Tetrud @ 2021-12-18 16:51 ` Jeremy 2021-12-18 17:52 ` Peter Todd 2021-12-19 18:55 ` Antoine Riard 1 sibling, 2 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Jeremy @ 2021-12-18 16:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Antoine Riard, Bitcoin Protocol Discussion [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 8523 bytes --] Small idea: ease into getting rid of full-rbf by keeping the flag working, but make enforcement of non-replaceability something that happens n seconds after first seen. this reduces the ability to partition the mempools by broadcasting irreplaceable conflicts all at once, and slowly eases clients off of relying on non-RBF. we might start with 60 seconds, and then double every release till we get to 600 at which point we disable it. -- @JeremyRubin <https://twitter.com/JeremyRubin> <https://twitter.com/JeremyRubin> On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 10:00 AM Antoine Riard via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > Hi, > > I'm writing to propose deprecation of opt-in RBF in favor of full-RBF as > the Bitcoin Core's default replacement policy in version 24.0. As a > reminder, the next release is 22.0, aimed for August 1st, assuming > agreement is reached, this policy change would enter into deployment phase > a year from now. > > Even if this replacement policy has been deemed as highly controversial a > few years ago, ongoing and anticipated changes in the Bitcoin ecosystem are > motivating this proposal. > > # RBF opt-out as a DoS Vector against Multi-Party Funded Transactions > > As explained in "On Mempool Funny Games against Multi-Party Funded > Transactions'', 2nd issue [0], an attacker can easily DoS a multi-party > funded transactions by propagating an RBF opt-out double-spend of its > contributed input before the honest transaction is broadcasted by the > protocol orchester. DoSes are qualified in the sense of either an attacker > wasting timevalue of victim's inputs or forcing exhaustion of the > fee-bumping reserve. > > This affects a series of Bitcoin protocols such as Coinjoin, onchain DLCs > and dual-funded LN channels. As those protocols are still in the early > phase of deployment, it doesn't seem to have been executed in the wild for > now. That said, considering that dual-funded are more efficient from a > liquidity standpoint, we can expect them to be widely relied on, once > Lightning enters in a more mature phase. At that point, it should become > economically rational for liquidity service providers to launch those DoS > attacks against their competitors to hijack user traffic. > > Beyond that, presence of those DoSes will complicate the design and > deployment of multi-party Bitcoin protocols such as payment > pools/multi-party channels. Note, Lightning Pool isn't affected as there is > a preliminary stage where batch participants are locked-in their funds > within an account witnessScript shared with the orchestrer. > > Of course, even assuming full-rbf, propagation of the multi-party funded > transactions can still be interfered with by an attacker, simply > broadcasting a double-spend with a feerate equivalent to the honest > transaction. However, it tightens the attack scenario to a scorched earth > approach, where the attacker has to commit equivalent fee-bumping reserve > to maintain the pinning and might lose the "competing" fees to miners. > > # RBF opt-out as a Mempools Partitions Vector > > A longer-term issue is the risk of mempools malicious partitions, where an > attacker exploits network topology or divergence in mempools policies to > partition network mempools in different subsets. From then a wide range of > attacks can be envisioned such as package pinning [1], artificial > congestion to provoke LN channels closure or manipulation of > fee-estimator's feerate (the Core's one wouldn't be affected as it relies > on block confirmation, though other fee estimators designs deployed across > the ecosystem are likely going to be affected). > > Traditionally, mempools partitions have been gauged as a spontaneous > outcome of a distributed systems like Bitcoin p2p network and I'm not aware > it has been studied in-depth for adversarial purposes. Though, deployment > of second-layer > protocols, heavily relying on sanity of a local mempool for fee-estimation > and robust propagation of their time-sensitive transactions might lead to > reconsider this position. Acknowledging this, RBF opt-out is a low-cost > partitioning tool, of which the existence nullifies most of potential > progresses to mitigate malicious partitioning. > > > To resume, opt-in RBF doesn't suit well deployment of robust second-layers > protocol, even if those issues are still early and deserve more research. > At the same time, I believe a meaningful subset of the ecosystem are still > relying > on 0-confs transactions, even if their security is relying on far weaker > assumptions (opt-in RBF rule is a policy rule, not a consensus one) [2] A > rapid change of Core's mempool rules would be harming their quality of > services and should be > weighed carefully. On the other hand, it would be great to nudge them > towards more secure handling of their 0-confs flows [3] > > Let's examine what could be deployed ecosystem-wise as enhancements to the > 0-confs security model. > > # Proactive security models : Double-spend Monitoring/Receiver-side > Fee-Topping with Package Relay > > From an attacker viewpoint, opt-in RBF isn't a big blocker to successful > double-spends. Any motivated attacker can modify Core to mass-connect to a > wide portion of the network, announce txA to this subset, announce txA' to > the > merchant. TxA' propagation will be encumbered by the privacy-preserving > inventory timers (`OUTBOUND_INVENTORY_BROADCAST_INTERVAL`), of which an > attacker has no care to respect. > > To detect a successful double-spend attempt, a Bitcoin service should run > few full-nodes with well-spread connection graphs and unlinkable between > them, to avoid being identified then maliciously partitioned from the rest > of the network. > > I believe this tactic is already deployed by few Bitcoin services, and > even one can throw flame at it because it over consumes network resources > (bandwidth, connection slots, ...), it does procure a security advantage to > the ones doing it. > > One further improvement on top of this protection could be to react after > the double-spend detection by attaching a CPFP to the merchant transaction, > with a higher package feerate than the double-spend. Expected deployment of > package-relay as a p2p mechanism/mempool policy in Bitcoin Core should > enable it to do so. > > # Reactive security models : EconomicReputation-based Compensations > > Another approach could be to react after the fact if a double-spend has > been qualified. If the sender is already known to the service provider, the > service account can be slashed. If the sender is a low-trusted > counterparty to the merchant, "side-trust" models could be relied on. For > e.g a LN pubkey with a stacked reputation from your autopilot, LSATs, stake > certificates, a HTLC-as-a-fidelity-bond, ... The space is quite wide there > but I foresee those trust-minimized, decentralized solutions being adopted > by the LN ecosystem to patch the risks when you enter in a channel/HTLC > operation with an anonymous counterparty. > > What other cool new tools could be considered to enhance 0-confs security ? > > To conclude, let's avoid replaying the contentious threads of a few years > ago. What this new thread highlights is the fact that a transaction > relay/mempool acceptance policy might be beneficial to some class of > already-deployed > Bitcoin applications while being detrimental to newer ones. How do we > preserve the current interests of 0-confs users while enabling upcoming > interests of fancy L2s to flourish is a good conversation to have. I think. > > If there is ecosystem agreement on switching to full-RBF, but 0.24 sounds > too early, let's defer it to 0.25 or 0.26. I don't think Core has a > consistent deprecation process w.r.t to policy rules heavily relied-on by > Bitcoin users, if we do so let sets a precedent satisfying as many folks as > we can. > > Cheers, > Antoine > > [0] > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2021-May/003033.html > > [1] See scenario 3 : > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2020-June/002758.html > > [2] https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/10823#issuecomment-466485121 > > [3] And the LN ecosystem does have an interest to fix zero-confs security, > if "turbo-channels"-like become normalized for mobile nodes > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 10418 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Proposal: Full-RBF in Bitcoin Core 24.0 2021-12-18 16:51 ` Jeremy @ 2021-12-18 17:52 ` Peter Todd 2021-12-20 2:30 ` damian 2021-12-19 18:55 ` Antoine Riard 1 sibling, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: Peter Todd @ 2021-12-18 17:52 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Jeremy, Bitcoin Protocol Discussion [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 990 bytes --] On Sat, Dec 18, 2021 at 08:51:46AM -0800, Jeremy via bitcoin-dev wrote: > Small idea: > > ease into getting rid of full-rbf by keeping the flag working, but make > enforcement of non-replaceability something that happens n seconds after > first seen. > > this reduces the ability to partition the mempools by broadcasting > irreplaceable conflicts all at once, and slowly eases clients off of > relying on non-RBF. > > we might start with 60 seconds, and then double every release till we get > to 600 at which point we disable it. Making replacability turn on _after_ an expiry time is reached has been suggested before, IIRC by Matt Corallo. However I believe the approach of enabling full-rbf _until_ a time is reached is clever and novel. I'd suggest doing both at once. Long-running txs are certainly useful. But if a tx hasn't been mined in a few blocks, it certainly can't be relied on for zeroconf. -- https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Proposal: Full-RBF in Bitcoin Core 24.0 2021-12-18 17:52 ` Peter Todd @ 2021-12-20 2:30 ` damian 0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: damian @ 2021-12-20 2:30 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Peter Todd, Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Good Afternoon, There is no such thing in Bitcoin as zeroconf but any individual may use gossip from mempool if they choose it to prefer it could be possible a transaction could exist in the future. You are talking about the mempool. The mempool exists on gossip. There are no transactions until they are mined and included in a block and information can disappear from the mempool. This is Bitcoin where we scientifically make a consensus to assure fungibility. KING JAMES HRMH Great British Empire Regards, The Australian LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH (& HMRH) of Hougun Manor & Glencoe & British Empire MR. Damian A. James Williamson Wills et al. Willtech www.willtech.com.au www.go-overt.com duigco.org DUIGCO API and other projects m. 0487135719 f. +61261470192 This email does not constitute a general advice. Please disregard this email if misdelivered. On 2021-12-18 09:52, Peter Todd via bitcoin-dev wrote: > On Sat, Dec 18, 2021 at 08:51:46AM -0800, Jeremy via bitcoin-dev wrote: >> Small idea: >> >> ease into getting rid of full-rbf by keeping the flag working, but >> make >> enforcement of non-replaceability something that happens n seconds >> after >> first seen. >> >> this reduces the ability to partition the mempools by broadcasting >> irreplaceable conflicts all at once, and slowly eases clients off of >> relying on non-RBF. >> >> we might start with 60 seconds, and then double every release till we >> get >> to 600 at which point we disable it. > > Making replacability turn on _after_ an expiry time is reached has been > suggested before, IIRC by Matt Corallo. However I believe the approach > of > enabling full-rbf _until_ a time is reached is clever and novel. > > I'd suggest doing both at once. Long-running txs are certainly useful. > But if a > tx hasn't been mined in a few blocks, it certainly can't be relied on > for > zeroconf. > > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Proposal: Full-RBF in Bitcoin Core 24.0 2021-12-18 16:51 ` Jeremy 2021-12-18 17:52 ` Peter Todd @ 2021-12-19 18:55 ` Antoine Riard 1 sibling, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Antoine Riard @ 2021-12-19 18:55 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Jeremy; +Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 10517 bytes --] > we might start with 60 seconds, and then double every release till we get to 600 at which point we disable it. This is clearly new. However, I'm not sure if it's solving multi-party funding transaction DoS, which was of the motivation to propose to deprecate opt-in RBF. The malicious counterparty can broadcast its low-feerate, opt-out spending of its own collateral input far before to engage in the cooperative funding. When the funding transaction starts to propagate, the opt-out has been "first seen" for a while, the replaceability is turned off, the honest funding is bounced off ? Taking opportunity to laid out another proposal which has whispered to me offline : "(what) if the nversion of outputs (which is set by their creating transaction) were inspected and triggered any spend of the output to be required to be flagged to be replaceable-- as a standardness rule?" While working to solve the DoS, I believe this approach is introducing an overhead cost in the funding of multi-party transactions, as from now on, you have to sanitize your collateral inputs by sending them first to a replaceable nVersion outputs ? (iirc, this is done by Lightning Pool, where you have a first step where the inputs are locked in a 2-of-2 with the orchester before to engage in the batch execution tx). Current state of the discussion is to introduce a `fullrbf` config-knob turned to false, see more context here : https://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/2021-10-21.log. Proposing an implementation soon. Antoine Le sam. 18 déc. 2021 à 11:51, Jeremy <jlrubin@mit•edu> a écrit : > Small idea: > > ease into getting rid of full-rbf by keeping the flag working, but make > enforcement of non-replaceability something that happens n seconds after > first seen. > > this reduces the ability to partition the mempools by broadcasting > irreplaceable conflicts all at once, and slowly eases clients off of > relying on non-RBF. > > we might start with 60 seconds, and then double every release till we get > to 600 at which point we disable it. > -- > @JeremyRubin <https://twitter.com/JeremyRubin> > <https://twitter.com/JeremyRubin> > > > On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 10:00 AM Antoine Riard via bitcoin-dev < > bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I'm writing to propose deprecation of opt-in RBF in favor of full-RBF as >> the Bitcoin Core's default replacement policy in version 24.0. As a >> reminder, the next release is 22.0, aimed for August 1st, assuming >> agreement is reached, this policy change would enter into deployment phase >> a year from now. >> >> Even if this replacement policy has been deemed as highly controversial a >> few years ago, ongoing and anticipated changes in the Bitcoin ecosystem are >> motivating this proposal. >> >> # RBF opt-out as a DoS Vector against Multi-Party Funded Transactions >> >> As explained in "On Mempool Funny Games against Multi-Party Funded >> Transactions'', 2nd issue [0], an attacker can easily DoS a multi-party >> funded transactions by propagating an RBF opt-out double-spend of its >> contributed input before the honest transaction is broadcasted by the >> protocol orchester. DoSes are qualified in the sense of either an attacker >> wasting timevalue of victim's inputs or forcing exhaustion of the >> fee-bumping reserve. >> >> This affects a series of Bitcoin protocols such as Coinjoin, onchain DLCs >> and dual-funded LN channels. As those protocols are still in the early >> phase of deployment, it doesn't seem to have been executed in the wild for >> now. That said, considering that dual-funded are more efficient from a >> liquidity standpoint, we can expect them to be widely relied on, once >> Lightning enters in a more mature phase. At that point, it should become >> economically rational for liquidity service providers to launch those DoS >> attacks against their competitors to hijack user traffic. >> >> Beyond that, presence of those DoSes will complicate the design and >> deployment of multi-party Bitcoin protocols such as payment >> pools/multi-party channels. Note, Lightning Pool isn't affected as there is >> a preliminary stage where batch participants are locked-in their funds >> within an account witnessScript shared with the orchestrer. >> >> Of course, even assuming full-rbf, propagation of the multi-party funded >> transactions can still be interfered with by an attacker, simply >> broadcasting a double-spend with a feerate equivalent to the honest >> transaction. However, it tightens the attack scenario to a scorched earth >> approach, where the attacker has to commit equivalent fee-bumping reserve >> to maintain the pinning and might lose the "competing" fees to miners. >> >> # RBF opt-out as a Mempools Partitions Vector >> >> A longer-term issue is the risk of mempools malicious partitions, where >> an attacker exploits network topology or divergence in mempools policies to >> partition network mempools in different subsets. From then a wide range of >> attacks can be envisioned such as package pinning [1], artificial >> congestion to provoke LN channels closure or manipulation of >> fee-estimator's feerate (the Core's one wouldn't be affected as it relies >> on block confirmation, though other fee estimators designs deployed across >> the ecosystem are likely going to be affected). >> >> Traditionally, mempools partitions have been gauged as a spontaneous >> outcome of a distributed systems like Bitcoin p2p network and I'm not aware >> it has been studied in-depth for adversarial purposes. Though, deployment >> of second-layer >> protocols, heavily relying on sanity of a local mempool for >> fee-estimation and robust propagation of their time-sensitive transactions >> might lead to reconsider this position. Acknowledging this, RBF opt-out is >> a low-cost partitioning tool, of which the existence nullifies most of >> potential progresses to mitigate malicious partitioning. >> >> >> To resume, opt-in RBF doesn't suit well deployment of robust >> second-layers protocol, even if those issues are still early and deserve >> more research. At the same time, I believe a meaningful subset of the >> ecosystem are still relying >> on 0-confs transactions, even if their security is relying on far weaker >> assumptions (opt-in RBF rule is a policy rule, not a consensus one) [2] A >> rapid change of Core's mempool rules would be harming their quality of >> services and should be >> weighed carefully. On the other hand, it would be great to nudge them >> towards more secure handling of their 0-confs flows [3] >> >> Let's examine what could be deployed ecosystem-wise as enhancements to >> the 0-confs security model. >> >> # Proactive security models : Double-spend Monitoring/Receiver-side >> Fee-Topping with Package Relay >> >> From an attacker viewpoint, opt-in RBF isn't a big blocker to successful >> double-spends. Any motivated attacker can modify Core to mass-connect to a >> wide portion of the network, announce txA to this subset, announce txA' to >> the >> merchant. TxA' propagation will be encumbered by the privacy-preserving >> inventory timers (`OUTBOUND_INVENTORY_BROADCAST_INTERVAL`), of which an >> attacker has no care to respect. >> >> To detect a successful double-spend attempt, a Bitcoin service should run >> few full-nodes with well-spread connection graphs and unlinkable between >> them, to avoid being identified then maliciously partitioned from the rest >> of the network. >> >> I believe this tactic is already deployed by few Bitcoin services, and >> even one can throw flame at it because it over consumes network resources >> (bandwidth, connection slots, ...), it does procure a security advantage to >> the ones doing it. >> >> One further improvement on top of this protection could be to react after >> the double-spend detection by attaching a CPFP to the merchant transaction, >> with a higher package feerate than the double-spend. Expected deployment of >> package-relay as a p2p mechanism/mempool policy in Bitcoin Core should >> enable it to do so. >> >> # Reactive security models : EconomicReputation-based Compensations >> >> Another approach could be to react after the fact if a double-spend has >> been qualified. If the sender is already known to the service provider, the >> service account can be slashed. If the sender is a low-trusted >> counterparty to the merchant, "side-trust" models could be relied on. For >> e.g a LN pubkey with a stacked reputation from your autopilot, LSATs, stake >> certificates, a HTLC-as-a-fidelity-bond, ... The space is quite wide there >> but I foresee those trust-minimized, decentralized solutions being adopted >> by the LN ecosystem to patch the risks when you enter in a channel/HTLC >> operation with an anonymous counterparty. >> >> What other cool new tools could be considered to enhance 0-confs security >> ? >> >> To conclude, let's avoid replaying the contentious threads of a few years >> ago. What this new thread highlights is the fact that a transaction >> relay/mempool acceptance policy might be beneficial to some class of >> already-deployed >> Bitcoin applications while being detrimental to newer ones. How do we >> preserve the current interests of 0-confs users while enabling upcoming >> interests of fancy L2s to flourish is a good conversation to have. I think. >> >> If there is ecosystem agreement on switching to full-RBF, but 0.24 sounds >> too early, let's defer it to 0.25 or 0.26. I don't think Core has a >> consistent deprecation process w.r.t to policy rules heavily relied-on by >> Bitcoin users, if we do so let sets a precedent satisfying as many folks as >> we can. >> >> Cheers, >> Antoine >> >> [0] >> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2021-May/003033.html >> >> [1] See scenario 3 : >> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2020-June/002758.html >> >> [2] https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/10823#issuecomment-466485121 >> >> [3] And the LN ecosystem does have an interest to fix zero-confs >> security, if "turbo-channels"-like become normalized for mobile nodes >> _______________________________________________ >> bitcoin-dev mailing list >> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org >> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev >> > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 12375 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2021-12-20 2:37 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 12+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2021-06-15 16:55 [bitcoin-dev] Proposal: Full-RBF in Bitcoin Core 24.0 Antoine Riard 2021-06-17 0:58 ` Billy Tetrud 2021-06-17 22:28 ` Greg Sanders 2021-06-25 0:23 ` Antoine Riard 2021-06-26 16:13 ` Billy Tetrud 2021-06-26 19:00 ` Jeremy 2021-06-30 14:06 ` Corey Haddad 2021-06-30 19:21 ` Billy Tetrud 2021-12-18 16:51 ` Jeremy 2021-12-18 17:52 ` Peter Todd 2021-12-20 2:30 ` damian 2021-12-19 18:55 ` Antoine Riard
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