| --- Log opened Sun Feb 03 00:00:49 2013 | ||
| @kanzure | is it just me or is that pdf horribly typeset? | 00:02 |
|---|---|---|
| @kanzure | it is approaching hard to read | 00:03 |
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| @kanzure | here's what i see: | 00:05 |
| @kanzure | http://heybryan.org/shots/2013-02-03-0202-interphase-chromosomes-typesetting.png | 00:05 |
| @kanzure | nmz787: what time will you be around tomorrow if david treadwell would stop by? he has lots of photopolymer experience. | 00:10 |
| @kanzure | i think he did n>2 postdocs for whatever reason. | 00:10 |
| nmz787 | lol | 00:12 |
| nmz787 | umm | 00:12 |
| nmz787 | i will probably be here around noon PST (3PM EST) | 00:12 |
| @kanzure | that's a bit early for us in texas, especially since he's up now | 00:13 |
| @kanzure | actually, why doesn't he just show up now | 00:13 |
| gene_hacker | if you're looking to do micro-scale stereolithography, I've got a couple references for you | 00:25 |
| nmz787 | ok cool | 00:25 |
| @kanzure | go for it | 00:25 |
| gene_hacker | for now check this out: | 00:26 |
| gene_hacker | http://utwired.engr.utexas.edu/lff/symposium/proceedingsArchive/pubs/Manuscripts/2009/2009-68-Choi.pdf | 00:26 |
| gene_hacker | might be a bit more than what you want to do | 00:26 |
| gene_hacker | also what resin are you using? | 00:27 |
| gene_hacker | do you know your resin parameters | 00:27 |
| nmz787 | i might use 1,6 hexanediol acrylate, which has a few papers published | 00:30 |
| nmz787 | or just some random hobbyist recommended stuff | 00:30 |
| gene_hacker | why don't you just buy some stereolithography resin? | 00:31 |
| nmz787 | like? | 00:32 |
| nmz787 | that's what i meant by hobbyist stuff | 00:32 |
| gene_hacker | another must read | 00:32 |
| gene_hacker | http://www-bcf.usc.edu/~yongchen/Research.htm | 00:32 |
| nmz787 | the company said this stuff http://www.solarez.com/productsnew/fly_tie_uv_resin_thin.html | 00:33 |
| gene_hacker | can't find any of his papers on micro stuff, though I've seen micro parts from his team | 00:33 |
| @kanzure | "Rapid Manufacturing in Mintues" mintues.. | 00:33 |
| nmz787 | is pretty similar to this http://www.solarez.com/productsnew/uv3d_printing.html | 00:33 |
| gene_hacker | Perfactory SI500 | 00:34 |
| gene_hacker | or similiar should be good | 00:34 |
| @kanzure | "Fabrication of Conformal Ultrasound Transducer Arrays and Horns based on Multi-axis CNC Accumulation" | 00:35 |
| @kanzure | "Ultrasonic imaging is an important medical imaging technique. It uses ultrasound over 20K Hz to detect and visualize muscles, tendons, and many internal organs." | 00:35 |
| @kanzure | "Previous studies have shown that an improved acoustic performance can be achieved by conformal ultrasound transducer arrays and horns that can wrap conformably around curved surfaces." | 00:35 |
| @kanzure | well that's neat. | 00:35 |
| nmz787 | really the resin shouldn't matter since i'm not depending on it for more than a mold | 00:35 |
| gene_hacker | yeah you could use that resin, it's just that you'll have to determine the parameters for it | 00:36 |
| nmz787 | the hexanediacrylate is nice in that I know exactly what it is | 00:36 |
| gene_hacker | yeah I guess you're only making something in 2d | 00:36 |
| nmz787 | so for that i might actually be able to use it as-is for a microfluidic part | 00:36 |
| nmz787 | whereas the off-the-shelf stuff is all secret formulations | 00:37 |
| nmz787 | so i can't be sure how the hell it will react | 00:37 |
| gene_hacker | the secret formula isn't all that secret | 00:37 |
| nmz787 | they're all closed | 00:37 |
| gene_hacker | it's based on one of two polymer chemistries or a mix | 00:37 |
| nmz787 | with MSDSs saying '10-40% of X, 60-90% Y) | 00:38 |
| nmz787 | just since i started looking yesterday i've seen at least 3 or 4 different types of monomer being applied | 00:38 |
| nmz787 | in the off-the-shelf types | 00:38 |
| nmz787 | but anyway, like I said, that shouldnt matter much | 00:38 |
| gene_hacker | and of course you've got nasty photoinitiators too | 00:40 |
| nmz787 | they're usually pretty low concentration though | 00:40 |
| gene_hacker | which might cause problem if they seep out, they're made to produce free radicals, and are known to slowly degrade stereolithographic parts left in the sun too long | 00:41 |
| nmz787 | ahh, huh | 00:42 |
| nmz787 | ttyl tomoro | 00:51 |
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| @kanzure | http://www.downeu.net/ seems to have methods in molecular biology on random file upload sites | 00:55 |
| @kanzure | http://bookova.com/ would be better if it didn't have rails errors everywhere | 00:57 |
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| @kanzure | http://traumlibrary.net/ | 01:08 |
| @kanzure | "raum Library (Библиотека Траума) - это локальная (то есть предназначенная находиться на жестком диске вашего компьютера) библиотека, появившаяся на Рутрекере (тогда еще torrents.ru) в 2008 году путем объединения архива Либрусека c одной из существовавших в то в | 01:08 |
| @kanzure | "В дальнейшем были обработаны все доступные на трекере сборки и архивы fb2 книг и отслеживались обновления всех основных fb2-библиотек в сети. Вероятно, является наиболее полным (на дату последнего обновления) структурированным собранием доступных | 01:08 |
| @kanzure | "В библиотеке версии 2.31 - 173.549 книг (файлов) общим объемом 125.03 Gb." | 01:08 |
| @kanzure | 125 GB is a little on the low end.. Либрусека itself is 12 TB now. | 01:09 |
| @kanzure | ah neat i think this is where libgen was originally announced? http://torrent.rus.ec/viewtopic.php?t=10210 | 01:13 |
| @kanzure | and Либрусек(a?) torrent announcements are here http://torrent.rus.ec/viewforum.php?f=186 | 01:14 |
| @kanzure | "Объем всех торрентов: 63,077 TB" .... yeah. | 01:16 |
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| @kanzure | pfft windows/mac only http://www.gbooksdownloader.com/ | 01:24 |
| @kanzure | lots of biology books, not sure if this is an old torrent http://ihtik.lib.ru/2012.03_ihtik_biology/ | 01:28 |
| @kanzure | there's only 4 "methods in molecular biology" books in that list (i guess it's my litmus test) | 01:28 |
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| @kanzure | "science video search engine" http://sciencehack.com/ except none of the biology-related searches i've tried have returned anything. youtube gives better results, yeesh. | 01:36 |
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| @kanzure | timClicks: hello | 01:37 |
| timClicks | kanzure: hi | 01:37 |
| @kanzure | what brings you here? | 01:37 |
| timClicks | saw this channel on the DIYbio Google group | 01:37 |
| @kanzure | okie dokie | 01:37 |
| timClicks | specifically this thread, "[DIYbio] Google+ hangout tonight ( 02 Feb 2013 )" | 01:38 |
| @kanzure | well, check the /topic and logs are http://gnusha.org/logs/2013-02-02.log and http://gnusha.org/logs/2013-02-03.log | 01:38 |
| timClicks | thanks kanzure :) | 01:53 |
| rigel | http://pastebin.com/HJRVzksB | 02:00 |
| rigel | i have no idea how to fucking fix this | 02:00 |
| rigel | help me | 02:00 |
| rigel | because the bluez fuckasses wont | 02:00 |
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| gnusha_ | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=963ac2d7 Bryan Bishop: reduce clutter: move my notes into users/kanzure/ | 02:07 |
| @kanzure | rigel: what device is this? some bluetooth thing? | 02:08 |
| rigel | yep | 02:08 |
| rigel | i went into #bluez-users and they finally told me to run a sniffer while i did all this other shit | 02:08 |
| rigel | which was not apparent from ANY OTHER FUCKING WEBSITE ON THE INTERWEBS | 02:09 |
| rigel | so i did that | 02:09 |
| rigel | and got a little indignant when they said i should have done this before | 02:09 |
| rigel | like how the shit am i supposed to know that | 02:09 |
| rigel | anyway, the one person who was active told me to fuck off as a result | 02:09 |
| rigel | so im clueless | 02:10 |
| rigel | as usual | 02:10 |
| * kanzure sleeps | 02:14 | |
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| juri_ | does anyone here have experience in vacuum chamber construction? | 08:14 |
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| ParahSailin | paperbot: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/141/3585/1038.long | 08:19 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/3dc211578a6efec51a302440ee911739.txt | 08:19 |
| ParahSailin | that seems like a journal they should have | 08:21 |
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| @kanzure | ParahSailin: true, but it is also on jstor | 09:00 |
| @kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/ae31dd2db8492c041c927bacfdde0246.pdf "Ion-Exchange Removal of Sodium Chloride from Water with Calcium Hydroxide as Recoverable Regenerant" | 09:00 |
| @kanzure | ParahSai1in: ^ | 09:01 |
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| @kanzure | yashgaroth: hi | 10:12 |
| yashgaroth | hello | 10:12 |
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| jrayhawk | rigel: fwiw there's, like, four simultaneous and mutually incompatible userspace bluetooth interface generations at varying levels of documentation, deprecation, and working functionality; oftentimes i have to go out of my way to make sure the tools i am using are of the (theoretically) proper modern dbus generation. also, sometimes bluetoothd state just gets wedged in funny ways and deletion of ... | 11:18 |
| jrayhawk | ... /var/lib/bluetooth/IN:TE:ER:FA:CE:NA:ME makes things sane again. | 11:18 |
| jrayhawk | the bluez wiki is perpetually down, but it simultaneously documented every different interface generation and thus wasn't all that useful anyway as a result | 11:21 |
| jrayhawk | i tried bugging them for a copy of it to host a year ago but nobody there seems to care | 11:21 |
| jrayhawk | still better than in microsoft-land, at least. over there they're still of the "why implement basic profiles when manufacturers can do that for us?" mentality. | 11:25 |
| jrayhawk | hardware manufacturers are the last people you want touching your operating system | 11:25 |
| ThomasEgi | unless you are lazy, don't give a shit, and drowning in money already | 11:26 |
| nsh | jrayhawk, funfact hardware manufacturers (via firmware) have direct access to the highest security in any intel architecture | 11:28 |
| nsh | something to meditate on when you have too much confidence in computer security | 11:28 |
| archels | people have confidence in computer security? | 11:30 |
| @kanzure | "the highest security".. highest? | 11:31 |
| nsh | kanzure, via the PCI bus you can flash the BIOS | 11:31 |
| jrayhawk | worsy, they can update microcode | 11:31 |
| jrayhawk | worse | 11:31 |
| nsh | right | 11:31 |
| @kanzure | i was just disagreeing with your concept of security height | 11:32 |
| nsh | there is no current envisioned plans to make intel architecture in any way secure | 11:32 |
| nsh | TPM is voluntary | 11:32 |
| nsh | even encrypted filesystem dialogues can be spoofed, etc. | 11:32 |
| jrayhawk | Firewire also has arbitrary DMA | 11:32 |
| * nsh nods | 11:32 | |
| nsh | it's sad, but video game consoles are about the best platform to run mission critical software on | 11:33 |
| nsh | ok, that's a bit hyperbolic | 11:33 |
| nsh | but not miles away from the truth | 11:33 |
| archels | then there's the Chinese putting hardware backdoors into our microchips | 11:34 |
| * jrayhawk feels smug about 'blacklist firewire-ohci' while simultaneously having two open ExpressCard slots | 11:34 | |
| @kanzure | for all the talk about backdoors in microprocessors, i haven't seen anyone release a usable backdoor on opencores | 11:34 |
| chris_99 | it's be more noticable though if you could see the VHDL | 11:35 |
| @kanzure | so what? it's still worth looking at. | 11:35 |
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| @kanzure | klafka: welcome back | 11:36 |
| klafka | thanks! | 11:36 |
| @kanzure | jrayhawk: could we fix gnusha_ | 11:36 |
| @kanzure | i tried /nick gnusha but for whatever reason it just sent that as a message | 11:36 |
| -!- You're now known as gnusha | 11:41 | |
| jrayhawk | Yeah, having that socket interface be able to send arbitrary commands seems like a bad idea to me. | 11:41 |
| @kanzure | what is the right way for me to run commands? | 11:42 |
| jrayhawk | dtach -a ~gnusha/irssi.dtach | 11:44 |
| jrayhawk | sudo !! | 11:44 |
| @fenn | chido: have you thought about submitting a logo design for diybio.eu? you really have a talent for it | 12:05 |
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| @kanzure | gene_hacker: welcome back | 12:06 |
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| juri_ | nsh: i control security on my machines. | 12:57 |
| juri_ | bios written in C. option roms disabled on all cards. | 12:57 |
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| juri_ | yay coreboot supported gear. i'm picky for a reason. | 12:58 |
| juri_ | and its because i'm crazy. ;) | 12:58 |
| nsh | coreboot++ | 12:58 |
| nsh | but | 12:58 |
| nsh | no support for | 12:58 |
| nsh | what's it called | 12:58 |
| juri_ | serialICE? | 12:58 |
| nsh | one of the code execution protection mechanisms | 12:58 |
| nsh | or disabling SMM | 12:58 |
| nsh | i forget which | 12:58 |
| juri_ | coreboot lets you disable SMM code. | 12:59 |
| juri_ | some motherboards run with it, some don't. | 12:59 |
| nsh | oh ok, i'm either misremembering or misled | 12:59 |
| juri_ | the only non-coreboot gear i run is my laptops.. and they're an older chipset i am still bugging AMD to release docs for. | 13:00 |
| juri_ | if i just submitted my system config to a psychologist, i'm sure i could get some diagnosis related to being a control freak. | 13:02 |
| juri_ | 100% free software, excepting the firmware run by my hard drives, and monitors. | 13:02 |
| juri_ | i suppose its about time for me to implement my own keyboard controllers, as well. | 13:03 |
| nsh | lol | 13:04 |
| nsh | +1 | 13:04 |
| nsh | "i look forward to the day the only binary blob on my system is the NSA-installed backdoor" | 13:04 |
| juri_ | yepyep. ;) | 13:05 |
| nsh | btw if you want to see cool things done with coreboot (and origin of my confusion) check this talk | 13:05 |
| juri_ | i had some GPS devices i have a custom written firmware for, but they're not connected, because i don't want to broadcast my position within 3 cm. ;) | 13:06 |
| nsh | .g hardware backdooring is practical | 13:06 |
| yoleaux | http://www.toucan-system.com/research/blackhat2012_brossard_hardware_backdooring.pdf | 13:06 |
| nsh | no | 13:06 |
| nsh | .g hardware backdooring is practical site:youtube.com | 13:06 |
| yoleaux | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRxDvkKBMTc | 13:06 |
| nsh | .title | 13:06 |
| yoleaux | DEFCON 20: Hardware Backdooring is Practical - YouTube | 13:06 |
| nsh | juri_, good policy :) | 13:06 |
| @kanzure | botspam eww | 13:06 |
| nsh | kanzure, /ignore :) | 13:06 |
| @kanzure | as an admin, /ignore is irresponsible | 13:07 |
| @kanzure | but anyone else is welcome to use it | 13:07 |
| * nsh nods, not serious suggestion :) | 13:07 | |
| juri_ | kanzure? you're an admin here? i just thought you hit people with the banhammer and were generally grumpy. | 13:08 |
| juri_ | you don't want to hear my idea about how tweeting can save us all? | 13:08 |
| juri_ | its totally meta-zen, man! | 13:08 |
| nsh | lol | 13:09 |
| * juri_ takes another toke. | 13:09 | |
| * nsh decides juri lives at a high latitude | 13:10 | |
| juri_ | i live with a hippie. too easy to parody. :) | 13:10 |
| nsh | you don't live with a hippie, you co-hovel | 13:11 |
| * nsh has traumatic memories of waking up to five-alarm yogurt-weaving sessions | 13:12 | |
| @fenn | the thing about hippies is, there's so many of them: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Swami_opening.jpg | 13:13 |
| * nsh expects to see an indian river | 13:16 | |
| nsh | oh, no river | 13:16 |
| nsh | they probably drank it | 13:16 |
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| nmz787 | howdy | 13:21 |
| @kanzure | "after several requests for more details on the gene gun hack I did last summer, I now found the time to write up a little description of the project (see attachment). | 13:23 |
| @kanzure | oops | 13:23 |
| nsh | nmz787, hi | 13:23 |
| @kanzure | "A new professional, hand-held gene gun costs around 15.000€, the hack about 50€." | 13:23 |
| @kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/diybio/r%c3%bcdiger-trojok-gene-gun.pdf | 13:24 |
| @kanzure | AAAAHHH source code embedded in a pdf | 13:25 |
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| @kanzure | so uh in which reality is 50<15 ? | 13:27 |
| jrayhawk | that period does not mean what you think it means | 13:28 |
| @kanzure | i have a strange urge to sell lots and lots of guns | 13:28 |
| jrayhawk | the correct urge is to hoard guns | 13:28 |
| @kanzure | are background checks necessary for gene guns? since they aren't typical firearms, i suspect the answer is no. | 13:28 |
| yashgaroth | not in texas | 13:29 |
| @kanzure | fantastic | 13:29 |
| @kanzure | "the howitzer of gene guns" | 13:29 |
| nmz787 | well i guess lol | 13:30 |
| nmz787 | that seems like it could fall under the WMD watch | 13:30 |
| nmz787 | 'he's got a howitzer gene gun loaded with his sputum, and he was recently sick!' | 13:30 |
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| nmz787 | what is plastic foil though | 13:33 |
| nmz787 | saran wrap? | 13:33 |
| nsh | try satan wrap, it's devilishly good | 13:34 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: so is the photopolymer guy coming in? | 13:36 |
| @kanzure | checking. | 13:37 |
| @kanzure | nmz787: yep, in a moment or two | 13:39 |
| jrayhawk | paperbot: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17852499 | 13:41 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/5667af420c5364457bcc2b5a26283b2d.txt | 13:41 |
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| @kanzure | paperbot: http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/apl/cijf/2007/00000059/00000001/art00004 | 13:42 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/84774f9c090636bec97c6cbed2f5974c.txt | 13:42 |
| @kanzure | jrayhawk: well, i tried. | 13:43 |
| @kanzure | nmz787: give him a few more minutes. | 13:48 |
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| drtread | aloha @kanzure | 13:48 |
| @kanzure | drtread: howdy | 13:49 |
| nmz787 | howdy drtread | 13:50 |
| nmz787 | kanzure tells me you may know optics things, and also are keen on photo-curable polymers | 13:50 |
| klafka | what's up with paperbot? | 13:50 |
| @kanzure | klafka: paperbot is sorta hit-or-miss :) | 13:51 |
| klafka | aah | 13:51 |
| @kanzure | klafka: feel free to contribute fixes https://github.com/kanzure/paperbot | 13:51 |
| drtread | i am. 12 years ago, i designed a photo-curable dental composite. never went to market for corporate reasons | 13:51 |
| nmz787 | like you invented it for some other company that you didn't control? | 13:52 |
| nmz787 | or some mega-tooth corp squashed it? | 13:52 |
| drtread | i was working at a plant that made dental materials, owned by a corporation that didn't give a flip about dental materials. | 13:53 |
| drtread | as a reward, the plant was sold & closed. i've been on my own since. | 13:54 |
| cpopell | would it be possible to cure a photopolymer in real time being extruded slowly from a nozzle? | 13:54 |
| drtread | yes. within certain trade offs. | 13:54 |
| cpopell | I know they've done something similar with a light source on a head within a bath. | 13:54 |
| cpopell | but I was thinking in-air, to slowly draw shapes without supports | 13:55 |
| @kanzure | i think you could get much finer resolution with masks/dlp/mirrors than you could with positional accuracy on a head | 13:55 |
| drtread | air is bad for some of the easier formulations. oxygen kills radical polymerizations, which are the easiest to perform. | 13:56 |
| cpopell | that's a shame, the layerless is what was really nice about the in-bath setup | 13:56 |
| drtread | resolution depends on a lot of things: opacity of the resin is a big one; the energy required to complete the polymerization is, too. | 13:57 |
| drtread | there are other polymerization methods, besides radicals. | 13:57 |
| nmz787 | drtread: so use argon? | 13:57 |
| cpopell | (I have no background in SLA, my background is E-Jet) | 13:57 |
| brownies | you could always do it in a closed container without oxygen | 13:57 |
| @kanzure | brownies: but that complicates things a lot :( | 13:58 |
| drtread | argon is expensive; nitrogen is adequate. | 13:58 |
| nmz787 | argon is something i need to get anyway for DNA synthesis | 13:58 |
| nmz787 | ahh, maybe nitrogen will work | 13:58 |
| brownies | kanzure: well, it complicates them slightly | 13:58 |
| nmz787 | whichever is drier (H20 wise) | 13:58 |
| drtread | yes, it complicates things. | 13:58 |
| drtread | H2O should be kept to a minimum, anyway. the monomers can absorb quite a bit, and that will be bad for the resulting polymer. | 13:59 |
| nmz787 | so drtread i'm planning on doing something like this http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Three-Dimensional%20Printing%20Using%20a%20Photoinitiated%20Polymer.pdf | 14:01 |
| drtread | most of these formulations are quite viscous. they vary from frozen syrup -- yes, literally molasses in january -- to unfrozen syrup | 14:01 |
| nmz787 | except I only need 1 layer about 25-200 microns thick | 14:01 |
| drtread | design delivery method accordingly | 14:01 |
| nmz787 | so i am thinking I'll spin-coat the photoresin | 14:01 |
| juri_ | um | 14:04 |
| juri_ | it might be worth mentioning that i'm currently going over the documentation for one of students' ideas, a 3d printer that prints aluminum via a continuous weld. | 14:04 |
| juri_ | bonus: we're doing it in a vacuum chamber. | 14:05 |
| juri_ | so, if you're having a problem 3d printing something because of control of light / atmosphere... | 14:06 |
| nmz787 | juri_: can't they just use shielding gas? | 14:06 |
| juri_ | I would imagine, but i'm not the metalurgist. | 14:06 |
| juri_ | http://www.reprap.org/wiki/Fusionreprap | 14:07 |
| juri_ | I've got eight pages on this machine i have yet to process. | 14:07 |
| cpopell | juri: I know people working on a system like that | 14:08 |
| cpopell | except multi-material | 14:08 |
| juri_ | put them in touch, if they're interested in doing it in the open. we're doing aluminum for reasons of ease, that's all. | 14:09 |
| juri_ | the idea is to go multi-material. | 14:09 |
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| juri_ | I personally want to do carbon fiber printing instead, but... | 14:10 |
| cpopell | juri_ do you have me on facebook? | 14:10 |
| juri_ | I do not facebook. | 14:10 |
| drtread | in the last decade, hundreds of monomers have been commercialized for photo polymerization. most of it goes to inks and coatings. http://rahn-group.com/file_uploads/bibliothek/k_51_EnergyCuring/k_52_DocumentsNewsletters/1532_0_rahnproductguideeu12_2012.pdf | 14:11 |
| cpopell | Ah, damn. Do you have me on skype, etc.? | 14:11 |
| juri_ | no skype, either. | 14:11 |
| juri_ | i'm a free software zealot. ;) | 14:11 |
| juri_ | diaspora only. | 14:11 |
| rigel | holy shit what a bunch of turds | 14:11 |
| rigel | http://people.csail.mit.edu/albert/bluez-intro/c404.html | 14:11 |
| rigel | Novice developers requesting documentation on the official mailing lists [1] are typically rebuffed and told to figure out the API by reading through the BlueZ source code. | 14:11 |
| juri_ | no wonder my mouse doesn't asspciate with my PC. | 14:12 |
| cpopell | ...linkedin? | 14:12 |
| juri_ | cpopell: busted.. but.. i want to get rid of it. | 14:12 |
| juri_ | so, i won't have it for more than another month or so. | 14:13 |
| nmz787 | drtread: I found this pretty cheap www.solarez.com/productsnew/fly_tie_uv_resin_thin.html | 14:13 |
| nmz787 | drtread: 'we have a mixture of monomers including IBOMA and HDDA' | 14:14 |
| nmz787 | that's what the seller said along with that link | 14:14 |
| nmz787 | hmm IBOMA is a pretty complex molecule | 14:15 |
| juri_ | cpoppel: www.linkedin.com/in/julialongtin/ | 14:15 |
| nmz787 | well i guess it doesn't matter since I just need it to use as a mold | 14:15 |
| drtread | i looked at that last night. one problem with coating materials is that shrinkage generally isn't a big problem. when a material is confined, as it is in a dental filling or a 3D print, shrinkage is a much bigger problem. | 14:16 |
| drtread | i don't know about this specific product, however. | 14:16 |
| nmz787 | coated? | 14:16 |
| nmz787 | so you're saying spin-coating then exposing should be fine no matter the exact photoresin materials? | 14:17 |
| nmz787 | 'fine' to the extent that it won't take much experimentation to figure out how much it shrinks, if it does | 14:18 |
| cpopell | I don't remember us seeing much shrinking with our micron scale features, nmz | 14:19 |
| cpopell | but I can check with my labmate. | 14:19 |
| cpopell | (we ejetted photopolymers then cured them) | 14:19 |
| drtread | true about measuring the shrinkage. the problem is this: in multi-layer materials, all of the shrinkage in the plane of the layer (X-Y plane) adds up, building stress within the part. Z-axis shrinkage is irrelevant. | 14:20 |
| nmz787 | i would imagine it /does/ shrink in the Z | 14:21 |
| nmz787 | but that it wouldn't build a stress | 14:21 |
| nmz787 | in Z direction | 14:21 |
| cpopell | I seem to remember reading a paper on similar problems in fdm | 14:21 |
| drtread | this is much the same with any 3D printer that extrudes a polymer. | 14:21 |
| cpopell | drtread, do you know the one that tried to model shrink dynamics from a fdm? | 14:21 |
| drtread | it's best to confine all shrinkage to the z direction. | 14:21 |
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| drtread | no; all of the in-depth study i did on the problem was relevant to dental fillings, not 3D printing. | 14:22 |
| drtread | so i plead ignorance here. | 14:22 |
| drtread | in early photo cure fillings, the stress could build up so much that it would crack teeth. it made for some very unhappy patients. | 14:23 |
| cpopell | I can look up the reference if you care. | 14:24 |
| nmz787 | drtread: are you still working on dental? I know some folks who were working on 3D scanning of dental castings | 14:24 |
| drtread | please do, cpopell. | 14:25 |
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| drtread | i am not doing any dental work atm. i'm a consultant, and usually work on whatever gets me billable hours. :D | 14:26 |
| drtread | right now, that's the electronics testing industry. | 14:26 |
| drtread | i still have a soft spot in my heart for dental work done in other people's mouths. | 14:28 |
| juri_ | do you think the 'bioprinter' people have been talking about lately would have a high enough resolution to print dental prosthetics? | 14:31 |
| nmz787 | juri_: the right question is probably what tolerance can dental prosthetics be within of the measured space | 14:33 |
| nmz787 | is it half a cell width (~15 microns) | 14:34 |
| nmz787 | or can the gums divide a few times to fill in the gap | 14:34 |
| drtread | sure. i'm assuming you're talking about the printers for soft scaffolding that are then filed with cell cultures? the resolution for soft parts doesn't have to be that fine. it's the hard parts that require much closer tolerances. | 14:34 |
| nmz787 | cool | 14:34 |
| nmz787 | i saw a paper years ago where they pulled a mouse tooth and replaced it with a mouse tooth stem cell from a genetic-identical animal | 14:35 |
| juri_ | yep. that's the right question. i was thinking of printing a set of dentures. | 14:35 |
| cpopell | drtread, sent you a message | 14:35 |
| nmz787 | and it developed into a pretty normal tooth by just sitting the stem cell in the hole and covering with some goop | 14:35 |
| drtread | i hadn't heard that about the stem cell. excellent. | 14:35 |
| nmz787 | cpopell: i would be interested to read about stress too | 14:36 |
| juri_ | i wear dentures (and got them when i was 26. the gods truely hate me), and would enjoy having 'vanity' sets in various colours. | 14:36 |
| cpopell | We're revising and updating the paper for private publication, so I'll dig up that reference in the next week. | 14:36 |
| cpopell | I'll also be releasing my masters thesis to y'all for any who care. | 14:36 |
| juri_ | whats it about? | 14:37 |
| nmz787 | paperbot: http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0021531 | 14:38 |
| paperbot | error: HTTP 500 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Functional%20Tooth%20Regeneration%20Using%20a%20Bioengineered%20Tooth%20Unit%20as%20a%20Mature%20Organ%20Replacement%20Regenerative%20Therapy.pdf | 14:38 |
| drtread | wow. those would be some old references about the stress. at the time, i didn't have kanzure's programs for keeping track of all my... everything | 14:38 |
| nmz787 | i can't tell if this is the same group of the paper i was talking about | 14:38 |
| nmz787 | but it looks like the field is advancing | 14:38 |
| chris_99 | would it be possible to trick the mouth into re-growing teeth | 14:38 |
| nmz787 | chris_99: that's kind of what inducing stem cells is about | 14:39 |
| nmz787 | chris_99: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_pluripotent_stem_cell | 14:39 |
| juri_ | pardon me if i sound like a fool, but... | 14:39 |
| nmz787 | yashgaroth: might be better to handle this | 14:39 |
| chris_99 | aha, im just curious, like how milk teeth fall out then you get new permanent teeth, if you could get the milk teeth to grow again, i'll have a look at that | 14:39 |
| nmz787 | chris_99: in 50 years it will be an injection away | 14:40 |
| yashgaroth | who has summoned me | 14:40 |
| juri_ | I enjoy not having teeth. they werer a lot of mantinence, and have a non-zero chance of having something wrong, and killing you. | 14:40 |
| @kanzure | yashgaroth: dragon, please grant me immortality | 14:40 |
| yashgaroth | shoot gold at me with your gene gun | 14:40 |
| juri_ | i consider dentures that are high quality to be an enhancement. | 14:40 |
| nmz787 | yashgaroth: < chris_99> would it be possible to trick the mouth into re-growing teeth | 14:40 |
| nmz787 | yashgaroth: i said IPSCs are close maybe | 14:40 |
| yashgaroth | 'close' as in 10-15 years | 14:41 |
| chris_99 | that's not too far i guess | 14:41 |
| nmz787 | yashgaroth: well i said 50 years, so even cooler! | 14:41 |
| nmz787 | juri_: what can go wrong that is non-zero in normal teeth, you mean cavities n shit? | 14:41 |
| yashgaroth | or you can just get synthetic replacements | 14:42 |
| nmz787 | juri_: there's a non-zero chance of dropping your dentures out a fast-moving car window | 14:42 |
| drtread | back-in-the-day, my first post-doc (22 years ago) was studying bioceramics. the consensus then was that, even though biologically grown ceramic composites, such as teeth and seashells are excellent materials, they take just as long to manufacture in a lab as in an animal. | 14:42 |
| juri_ | nmz: my teeth just about killed me. infections in the gum that ate away the bone in my jaw. | 14:42 |
| nmz787 | huh | 14:42 |
| nmz787 | wow | 14:43 |
| juri_ | i had to have bone grafts, for structural integrity. no barfights for me, my face will just cave in. | 14:43 |
| nmz787 | that's scary, did you ever think to soak your mouth in tequila or vodka? | 14:43 |
| nmz787 | i mean, they must have tried the whole arsenal right? | 14:44 |
| yashgaroth | once the bugs have access to bone, they're a little beyond alcohol | 14:44 |
| juri_ | they did. the teeth had to go for the infection to be removed. | 14:44 |
| nmz787 | hmm | 14:44 |
| juri_ | my family suffers from a degenerative bone condition, so my teeth just kindof melted. | 14:44 |
| juri_ | I just about died. | 14:44 |
| drtread | wow. | 14:45 |
| nmz787 | ahh, so the real problem wasn't that bioteeth suck, it's the lab needed upgrading | 14:45 |
| juri_ | speaking as someone who has had bioteeth, and dentures, dentures are *so* much better. | 14:45 |
| nmz787 | do you leave them in all the time? | 14:46 |
| juri_ | they don't allow quite as much force without implanting studs, but they generally rock. cleaning them is easier, too. ;) | 14:46 |
| nmz787 | or only put them in to eat | 14:46 |
| juri_ | I leave them in constantly. | 14:46 |
| nmz787 | how do the attach to your gums? | 14:46 |
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| juri_ | they don't, really. suction works. | 14:47 |
| juri_ | I'm very glad i got them. A: i get to stay alive, and B: they're lower mantinence. i generally don't trust biological things. can't print them. ;) | 14:48 |
| nmz787 | so have you printed a set of your own teeth? | 14:49 |
| juri_ | nope. i haven't come up with a good scanning solution, and i'm convinced the wobble in my prussa is over the tolerances. | 14:49 |
| juri_ | its possible i'm wrong, which is why i asked the question earlier. | 14:50 |
| nmz787 | prussa? | 14:51 |
| nmz787 | not finding that on google | 14:51 |
| @kanzure | it's a version of reprap | 14:52 |
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| @kanzure | https://github.com/prusajr/PrusaMendel | 14:52 |
| juri_ | prusa. | 14:52 |
| nmz787 | ahh | 14:52 |
| juri_ | sorry. | 14:52 |
| nmz787 | i though it was some mouth bone | 14:52 |
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| nmz787 | since you said they weren't too strong, then mentioned wobble | 14:52 |
| juri_ | no, i mean layer-wise wobble in my prints. | 14:53 |
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| nmz787 | :P | 14:54 |
| @fenn | wouldn't want ABS teeth anyway | 14:55 |
| yashgaroth | I just want a couple of stone eyeteeth | 14:56 |
| juri_ | what about PLA? | 14:56 |
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| @fenn | silicone casting is probably the way to do it | 14:56 |
| @fenn | since you already have a copy of the object you want | 14:56 |
| @fenn | silicone for the mold i mean | 14:57 |
| nmz787 | how do you close your throat while making the mold? | 14:57 |
| drtread | the forces teeth have to endure are staggering. not many materials are up to the job. | 14:57 |
| @fenn | nmz787: just take the dentures out and make a mold from it | 14:57 |
| nmz787 | ahh i meant for ppl with bioteeth | 14:57 |
| nmz787 | i guess bioteeth are really just teeth | 14:58 |
| nmz787 | the distinction should be with synTeeth | 14:58 |
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| @fenn | wut | 14:58 |
| nmz787 | aka dentures i guess | 14:58 |
| @fenn | yashgaroth: are you going to join free mars after that? | 14:58 |
| nmz787 | drtread: so do you have any recommendations or tips for photocuring? | 14:58 |
| yashgaroth | fuck yes | 14:59 |
| nmz787 | fenn check this out paperbot: www.opticsinfobase.org/ol/abstract.cfm?uri=ol-30-8-836 | 14:59 |
| juri_ | oh, that reminds me, i need to tell marsone why i want to go to mars. | 14:59 |
| nmz787 | paperbot: www.opticsinfobase.org/ol/abstract.cfm?uri=ol-30-8-836 | 15:00 |
| cpopell | I'm relying on becoming well known enough that Elon Musk just invites me along @_@ | 15:00 |
| @fenn | it wants http:// | 15:00 |
| nmz787 | paperbot: http://www.opticsinfobase.org/ol/abstract.cfm?uri=ol-30-8-836 | 15:00 |
| paperbot | error: HTTP 500 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/5d1a9732e49dc86a8c60ad96101a973a.txt | 15:00 |
| nmz787 | well that's stupid | 15:00 |
| @fenn | yashgaroth: http://www.jwz.org/blog/2009/07/eye-teeth-seriously-please-dont-look-at-me/ | 15:01 |
| yashgaroth | haha oh god | 15:02 |
| @fenn | is that badass or what | 15:02 |
| drtread | tips for photo curing? well... first, define the system. The practical range of viscosities of the monomers is a good place to start. | 15:02 |
| nmz787 | fenn http://nathanmccorkle.com/pdf/Compact%20Fourier-transform%20volume%20holographic%20spectrometer%20for%20diffuse%20source%20spectroscopy.pdf | 15:02 |
| nmz787 | drtread: so in my case i'll just spin coat a bunch of samples for varying times and RPMs | 15:02 |
| nmz787 | then build some graphs for those data vs thickness | 15:03 |
| drtread | Then, pick a type of curing: radical, cationic or anionic. That will dictate the type of monomer that can be used and also the photo initiator. | 15:03 |
| nmz787 | so photoinitiators can be non-radical | 15:03 |
| nmz787 | like photons cause a charge shifted makind it a cat or anion? | 15:04 |
| nmz787 | making* | 15:04 |
| drtread | spincoating has a high surface area to volume ratio, so O2 can inhibit the polymerization, unless an inert gas is used. | 15:04 |
| nmz787 | sure I remember that | 15:05 |
| drtread | photoinitiators are molecules that fall apart when irradiated. they can fall apart into radicals, or ion pairs. | 15:05 |
| nmz787 | ahh, sure, i get it | 15:05 |
| nmz787 | is there a good PDF or book you can refer me to, that has all the options laid out? | 15:06 |
| drtread | there are also photo acids, sort of a twist on photo cations. | 15:06 |
| nmz787 | looking at that rahn group paper now | 15:06 |
| nmz787 | photoacids might be of interest in DNA synthesis as well, actually | 15:07 |
| nmz787 | so it might be nice to have 1 photoacid for both tasks | 15:08 |
| drtread | i don't have an overview paper available right now. send contact information... | 15:08 |
| nmz787 | nmz787 at gmail com | 15:08 |
| drtread | ok. i'll get you something tonight. | 15:08 |
| nmz787 | sweet | 15:09 |
| nmz787 | i'll cross ref some DNA photoacids too | 15:09 |
| nmz787 | maybe i'll see them on rahn, or you might recognize them | 15:09 |
| nmz787 | drtread: thanks | 15:09 |
| drtread | Sigma-Aldrich photoacids: http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/materials-science/material-science-products.html?TablePage=9542506 | 15:10 |
| @fenn | juri_: six billion dollars seems like a rather over-optimistic kickstarter | 15:11 |
| @kanzure | paperbot: http://www.opticsinfobase.org/DirectPDFAccess/56E20C28-AE49-AC90-57565FF6045D46B2_83331/ol-30-8-836.pdf?da=1&id=83331&seq=0&mobile=no | 15:12 |
| paperbot | no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/c4339eaef9ff802e246ead3eeebfea67.pdf | 15:12 |
| @kanzure | nmz787: there is your pdf | 15:12 |
| @kanzure | ah i see you already grabbed it. | 15:13 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: thanks for the future | 15:13 |
| @kanzure | paperbot gives the .txt output so that you can look to see if the pdf is linked in there somewhere. | 15:13 |
| juri_ | fenn: hmm? | 15:13 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: this guy seems active http://code.google.com/p/chemshapes/ | 15:13 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: according to his youtube channel | 15:14 |
| @fenn | i just wonder how they are going to get that kind of funding | 15:14 |
| juri_ | I'm still observing the kickstarter phenomenon, and have yet to try it. | 15:14 |
| @fenn | also there is no mention of any earth return vehicle. are they going to leave the lucky contestants on the surface for ever? | 15:19 |
| juri_ | Yes. | 15:19 |
| juri_ | and i'll still sign up. | 15:19 |
| nmz787 | lol | 15:20 |
| @fenn | but there's also no mention of any nuclear reactor or sabatier processors or anything you'd actually need to start a self sufficient colony on an airless lifeless world | 15:20 |
| cpopell | I'd just wait for Musk. | 15:21 |
| cpopell | I don't particularly believe Mars One is anything but a money pit | 15:22 |
| @fenn | no it looks like a hopeless untalented media organization like humanity+ | 15:22 |
| cpopell | Humanity+ luckily got a decent new editor for their mag. | 15:22 |
| cpopell | and kicked haywire out | 15:22 |
| @kanzure | ... they put rachel in charge? | 15:22 |
| cpopell | for a while I think? | 15:23 |
| cpopell | Kanzure, any commentary on Rothman? | 15:23 |
| cpopell | Rachel's been going off on me for being subversive and passive aggressive in her stupid fb group. | 15:23 |
| @kanzure | huh? | 15:23 |
| cpopell | Peter Rothman | 15:23 |
| cpopell | the new hplus magazine EiC | 15:23 |
| @kanzure | no. | 15:24 |
| cpopell | Okay. Any commentary on Brandon Whale, head of the Stanford Transhumanist Association? | 15:24 |
| @fenn | juri_: zubrin estimated the cost of a privately funded mars mission at $5-10b but that was _including_ earth return vehicles, several long distance rovers, and lab equipment | 15:24 |
| @kanzure | i seem to have Brandon Whale <bwhale@stanford.edu> down as a thiel foundation money recipient | 15:25 |
| cpopell | okay, cool. | 15:25 |
| @fenn | so even if they succeed it's still a bad deal | 15:26 |
| juri_ | you know, i hear a lot about money in this channel. its agrivating, for a random-contractor whos trying to make a difference, to see so many people talking about how XXYY is wasting their money. | 15:27 |
| cpopell | kanzure, did Lemminkainen/Honkala get in touch with you? | 15:27 |
| @kanzure | cpopell: he asked for a job within 24 hours, i haven't replied. | 15:27 |
| cpopell | k | 15:27 |
| @kanzure | juri_: just because someone is asking for money does not mean it's a good idea. many people take your money and do nothing with it. | 15:27 |
| @kanzure | juri_: the ability to ask for money is not a particularly important signal. | 15:28 |
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| @fenn | juri_: if it were possible to go to mars for less money, you can be sure someone would have done it by now | 15:28 |
| cpopell | Musk plans on doing it, but he also owns spacex and plans on charging 500k a ticket. | 15:28 |
| @fenn | launch costs are really the only obstacle | 15:28 |
| cpopell | And he actually has a reputation of being able to follow through on this shit. | 15:29 |
| @kanzure | cpopell: tone down the hero worship.. if he gets hit by lightning we still need those things. | 15:29 |
| nmz787 | any specific project in mind? | 15:29 |
| cpopell | I suspect it will be delayed if he gets hit by lightning, but I agree. | 15:29 |
| cpopell | I'm encouraged to see more and more billionaires getting involved in space | 15:29 |
| @kanzure | yeah, elon would probably survive a lightning strike anyway. | 15:30 |
| cpopell | I'm not entirely sure he doesn't eat lightning...dude was head engineer for spacex and tesla at the same time for a few months. | 15:30 |
| @fenn | head engineer? | 15:30 |
| @kanzure | "i carry a 5 Bj capacitor constantly in the event of black swans such as this" | 15:30 |
| cpopell | I believe so | 15:30 |
| cpopell | Though my favorite grassroots space effort is Copenhagen Suborbitals | 15:31 |
| nmz787 | it's nice to see someone seemingly doing good things in a timely manner | 15:31 |
| @kanzure | afaik he wasn't head engineer | 15:31 |
| nmz787 | but we'll see if it's all so 'good' i guess, hopefully he's not secretly dumping nuclear waste in dolphin mating zones or something | 15:31 |
| nmz787 | so many of the rich people turn out to be philanthropists after they've taken advantage of people or then environment | 15:32 |
| @kanzure | what do you have against philanthropy? | 15:32 |
| nmz787 | nothing, it's the avantage taking | 15:32 |
| @kanzure | you don't have to be rich t odo that | 15:33 |
| nmz787 | lotta people hate carnegie | 15:33 |
| nmz787 | for the whole pinketon thing | 15:33 |
| nmz787 | pinkerton* | 15:33 |
| nmz787 | etc | 15:33 |
| nmz787 | musk doesn't seem to be doing that stuff now though | 15:33 |
| juri_ | kanzure: consider that my 'i am a fulltime hacker, and have a hard time finding people to pay me to improve the world' rant. not that its your problem.. but the constant discussion of large sums of money, when i'm making my own shoes to lower costs is agrivating. | 15:34 |
| nmz787 | whereas carnegie was an plundered /then/ a philanthropist | 15:34 |
| cpopell | huh. Did you guys know the pinkertons are still around? | 15:34 |
| juri_ | cpoppel: the place nextdoor has a pinkertons security sign. | 15:34 |
| @kanzure | juri_: i don't think writing php is improving the world. | 15:35 |
| juri_ | you know, there's arguments that say you're right. ;) | 15:35 |
| juri_ | still, i'm doing what i can, and having a rough time. taling about how $6B is wasted here, and 500M is wasted there is.. grating. | 15:36 |
| @kanzure | huh? | 15:36 |
| cpopell | The discussion of it's grating, or the fact it's being wasted is grating? | 15:37 |
| cpopell | Because all of us hate to see shitty stuff get funded. | 15:37 |
| juri_ | i think both, honestly. | 15:37 |
| juri_ | i'm not saying discussing it is wrong.. but seeing it is agrivating. | 15:37 |
| nmz787 | juri_: but the world really is that big | 15:37 |
| juri_ | yeah. i'm still getting used to that. | 15:38 |
| @kanzure | i thought it was a kickstarter proposal | 15:38 |
| @kanzure | and fenn was commenting about how it sucks | 15:38 |
| @kanzure | and how it shouldn't be given money because of this suckyness | 15:38 |
| juri_ | you'll have to pardon me while i get used to the scale of things. i'm from a much smaller place. ;) | 15:38 |
| @kanzure | also because kickstarter is probably not a good platform for raising a few billion dollars in venture capital | 15:38 |
| @fenn | it's not literally a kickstarter | 15:39 |
| juri_ | yea, i'm pretty sure kickstarter would be a bad platform for that. | 15:39 |
| juri_ | think what paypal would earn off of that transfer. | 15:40 |
| @kanzure | ah i was wondering, 'cause i couldn't see a kickstarter link | 15:40 |
| @fenn | they have a donate button and so on, and plan to raise money from VC's for later selling the media distribution rights | 15:40 |
| @kanzure | fenn: i think selling media distribution rights is interesting and worth looking into | 15:40 |
| @fenn | but for such grandiose plans i'd hope they would at least have the level of technical detail one could get from reading a 200 page book on "how to colonize mars" | 15:40 |
| @kanzure | yes | 15:40 |
| @fenn | s/detail/correctness/ | 15:40 |
| @kanzure | carefulness | 15:40 |
| drtread | after the Challenger exploded, American schoolkids sent their lunch money to the White House to build a new one. Reagan thanked them very much, and it gave teachers all across the country a teachable moment on "orders of magnitude" | 15:41 |
| drtread | kickstarter is lunch money. | 15:41 |
| @kanzure | 40 million schoolkids -> $5/lunch -> not much | 15:41 |
| @fenn | that's enough for ... 5 more shuttle launches :) | 15:42 |
| @kanzure | i thought it was for an entire shuttle not a shuttle launch? | 15:42 |
| @fenn | nope | 15:42 |
| @kanzure | challenger was salvaged? | 15:42 |
| nmz787 | i would think kanzure is right | 15:42 |
| nmz787 | ' to build a new one' | 15:42 |
| drtread | they found some of it. | 15:42 |
| nmz787 | is what drtread said | 15:42 |
| @kanzure | hm. | 15:43 |
| @fenn | wp sez: "Building Space Shuttle Endeavour cost about US$1.7 billion. One Space Shuttle launch costs around $450 million." | 15:43 |
| @fenn | i thought it was less than that, but when you take into account the entire program cost i guess it's quite a lot | 15:43 |
| @kanzure | hi i would like 2 launches plz | 15:43 |
| @fenn | it's surprising a single launch costs almost a third of the construction cost, for a supposedly "super duper re-usable spacecraft" | 15:44 |
| @fenn | supposedly they cheaped out on the up-front design and construction cost, so we got stuck with a more expensive to use system overall | 15:44 |
| yashgaroth | well they have to basically rebuild the whole thing every time, because people get all complain-y when one explodes | 15:45 |
| @kanzure | explosions is the whole point though | 15:45 |
| @kanzure | that's how the up goer works | 15:45 |
| * fenn grumbles about momentum exchange tethers | 15:45 | |
| drtread | iirc, congress drastically cut the r&d budget about half way through. it was a disaster-in-waiting. | 15:45 |
| @fenn | most of this stupidity is because people think "space flight" is like "airplane flight" | 15:45 |
| drtread | fortunately, space elevators are almost here...? | 15:46 |
| cpopell | Uuuuhn. | 15:46 |
| cpopell | CNTs don't quite hit the necessary strengths. | 15:46 |
| @fenn | drtread: if you consider rotating tethers capable of taking a suborbital flight to orbit, then yes, it's practically already here | 15:46 |
| cpopell | even if we could manufacture them 'perfectly' | 15:46 |
| @kanzure | who said anything about CNTs | 15:47 |
| cpopell | I thought that was the closest we had with existing materials | 15:47 |
| @fenn | cpopell and drtread please read some papers here at your leisure: http://tethers.com/TUPubs.html in particular the ones about momentum exchange tethers.. (unfortunately the good papers i was rmemembering violated ITAR somehow) | 15:47 |
| nmz787 | drtread: is there any reason I shouldn't just use SU-8? | 15:47 |
| cpopell | Other than that, Kanzure, see the speculated negentropy work this month? | 15:48 |
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| nmz787 | drtread: wiki on SU-8 reminds me of aspect ratio... this is important to me | 15:49 |
| @fenn | http://www.tethers.com/papers/HASTOLAIAAPaper.pdf and http://www.tethers.com/papers/MERITT.pdf seem relevant to the current discussion | 15:49 |
| drtread | SU-8 might well work. I'm not familiar with the chemistry used in the developer. | 15:50 |
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| drtread | it is already used for microfluidics, so i say go for it. | 15:52 |
| nmz787 | drtread: http://memscyclopedia.org/su8.html | 15:52 |
| @fenn | the hypersonic air breathing airplane part isn't necessary; the payload pickup could be done from something like scaled composites ss2 | 15:52 |
| nmz787 | 'These astounding results are due to the low optical absorption in the UV range which only limits the thickness to 2 mm for the 365nm-wavelength where the photo-resist is the most sensitive (i.e., for this thickness very little UV light reach the bottom of the structure).' | 15:53 |
| nmz787 | wow this is cool http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LIGA | 15:54 |
| nmz787 | .wiki | 15:54 |
| nmz787 | .wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LIGA | 15:54 |
| nmz787 | 'LIGA is a German acronym for Lithographie, Galvanoformung, Abformung (Lithography, Electroplating, and Molding) that describes a fabrication technology used to create high-aspect-ratio microstructures.' | 15:55 |
| nmz787 | 'The X-ray LIGA process was originally developed at the Forschungszentrum Karlsruhe, Germany, to produce nozzles for uranium enrichment.' | 15:55 |
| nmz787 | juri_: so what is the best material for dentures these days, in case a tooth of mine ever needs replaced | 15:56 |
| drtread | wow... 50:1 aspect ratio. i didn't know that was possible. | 15:56 |
| nmz787 | 'The notable characteristics of X-ray LIGA-fabricated structures include: | 15:56 |
| nmz787 | high aspect ratios on the order of 100:1' | 15:56 |
| nmz787 | juri_: there's your welding based printer | 15:57 |
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| cpopell | hm | 16:07 |
| @fenn | great now all you need is a synchrotron | 16:08 |
| ThomasEgi | nmz787, tooth replacement? | 16:10 |
| ThomasEgi | or who was asking that? | 16:11 |
| juri_ | fenn: i've had someone trying to convince me to do that. | 16:11 |
| ThomasEgi | juri_, for teeth, usualy ceramics or ceramic-compounds are used. | 16:14 |
| ThomasEgi | pretty awesome stuff that is. so far i only have it to fill up a few holes in my teeth . but it is amazing | 16:15 |
| ThomasEgi | not exactly sure if they'd use the same stuff for an entire tooth. but probably something simmilar | 16:15 |
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| nmz787 | bbl | 16:25 |
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| @kanzure | new frontpage for http://www.openworm.org/ | 17:02 |
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| @kanzure | deap sea creatures http://imgur.com/a/xkfSv | 17:11 |
| brownies | well that was thoroughly terrifying. | 17:14 |
| yashgaroth | the dumbo octopus was cute | 17:15 |
| @kanzure | *deep | 17:16 |
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| abetusk | well, it's official, I cut my first function circuit board | 17:45 |
| @kanzure | this is why i hate "on intelligence": http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5162002 | 17:47 |
| @kanzure | this guy clearly has not read anything about the blue brain project | 17:47 |
| @fenn | i dont get it, what does AI have to do with blue brain? | 17:52 |
| @fenn | or is that the point | 17:52 |
| @kanzure | from a very far distance, i'm sure someone could conflate whole brain emulation with artificial intelligence. | 17:52 |
| @fenn | anyway, funding for the human brain project is good news | 17:53 |
| @kanzure | did you read their proposal from months ago? | 17:54 |
| @kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/HBP_flagship.pdf | 17:54 |
| @fenn | not yet, i just learned about it | 17:55 |
| @kanzure | it's not exactly as interesting as the whole brain emulation roadmap document | 17:55 |
| abetusk | fenn, nmz787, how's the laser cutter going, or has that project been scrapped? | 17:56 |
| @fenn | nmz787 is investigating photo cure resins as an alternative, due to concerns about porosity (i guess) | 17:59 |
| abetusk | you're going to be able to get the same level of resolution as a laser cutter? | 18:02 |
| @fenn | same resolution but different material | 18:03 |
| @fenn | it might even be possible to do either cutting or curing using the same laser | 18:03 |
| abetusk | interesting. That would be novel | 18:04 |
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| @kanzure | http://www.humanbrainproject.eu/ http://www.humanbrainproject.eu/files/HBP_flagship.pdf | 18:04 |
| @fenn | 108 pages? | 18:05 |
| juri_ | 'light reading'. | 18:06 |
| @fenn | well at least it has an abstract | 18:06 |
| @kanzure | next you're going to taunt me for reading | 18:06 |
| @kanzure | because fuck reading, right? | 18:07 |
| @kanzure | "This is such a weird comment I wonder if you were even being serious or even read the article. Are you seriously responding to an article about a research consortium (using a Nobel Prize-winning neuroscientist as an outreach person) by suggesting that they haven't read a book by a tech magnate and a science writer)?" | 18:07 |
| @kanzure | "I mean, nobody would suggest that Jeff Hawkins is a slouch, but get real. These people are not bumpkins tilting at research money windmills because they haven't seen the light in the best-seller aisle." | 18:07 |
| juri_ | wow. | 18:07 |
| juri_ | i don't know who that is, but fuck that guy. | 18:08 |
| @kanzure | huh? | 18:08 |
| @kanzure | i think he criticizes the "just read on intelligence" person quite well. | 18:08 |
| * juri_ shakes her head. | 18:09 | |
| @kanzure | look for yourself: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5162002 | 18:10 |
| juri_ | wow. 1.6B. | 18:12 |
| @fenn | "on intelligence" is (supposedly) based on neuroscience research, so it just doesn't make sense from any perspective | 18:12 |
| @kanzure | juri_: we've been mentioning the blue brain project in here for a few years; it's not totally crap. | 18:13 |
| @kanzure | juri_: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gFI7o69VJM&list=PLgO7JBj821uEq-iLteI2BgeXc8JY1PgF2#t=9m | 18:13 |
| juri_ | honestly? it seems like not enough money. | 18:15 |
| juri_ | the world economy is 21T a year, last i heard. 1.6B to 'simulate a brain'(vaast oversimplification, i know) seems like a drop in the bucket. | 18:16 |
| @fenn | yes but the entire world isn't scientists and computer manufacturers | 18:17 |
| juri_ | And Why Not? ;) | 18:17 |
| @fenn | because, you know, diapers and coca cola | 18:18 |
| juri_ | i just wish we could guarantee all of that work would end up in the public domain. | 18:18 |
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| @kanzure | juri_: a lot of it is available with somewhat free licensing | 18:18 |
| @kanzure | hg clone http://www.neuron.yale.edu/hg/neuron/nrn | 18:18 |
| juri_ | yea, i saw that link. | 18:18 |
| @fenn | that is a good point, the greed of university "technology transfer" departments is disturbing | 18:19 |
| @kanzure | blah blah blah required by law etc. | 18:19 |
| @fenn | what's required by law? | 18:19 |
| brownies | technology transfer departments is one way that universities stay self-sustaining -_- | 18:19 |
| @kanzure | the technology transfer offices were created in response to the bayh-dole act | 18:19 |
| @kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayh%E2%80%93Dole_Act | 18:19 |
| brownies | you can't just posit a magical world where everyone researches everything for free without any way to keep it going | 18:20 |
| @kanzure | brownies: federal funding doesn't work like that | 18:20 |
| @fenn | that's just wrong, we fund them through taxes and tuition, they don't need to go fucking over their staff and collaborators out of some misguided sense of monetary gain | 18:20 |
| brownies | doesn't work like what? | 18:20 |
| juri_ | i'm asked to do what i do without compensation all of the time, and yet, i've managed an entire career of ONLY open work. | 18:20 |
| @kanzure | brownies: research is already funded | 18:21 |
| juri_ | i wouldn't ask what i didn't do. | 18:21 |
| brownies | tuition is a vanishingly small amount of a university's funding, btw | 18:21 |
| @kanzure | brownies: tuition was a silly thing to bring up, the vast majority of funding comes from entities like the NIH. | 18:21 |
| @fenn | yes, a lot of it comes by appropriating half of all research grant funding, which also doesn't come from university IP | 18:21 |
| juri_ | I don't do well, but i live my own life, with all the results of my work in the open. | 18:21 |
| brownies | kanzure: sure. and then it's commercialized and distributed through tech transfer. | 18:21 |
| @kanzure | only because of that law, really. | 18:22 |
| @kanzure | it doesn't have to be that way. | 18:22 |
| brownies | there isn't a dichotomy here. a university getting more funding to do more research is generally a Good Thing. | 18:22 |
| @fenn | it's a very new thing compared to the history of universities | 18:22 |
| @fenn | and the funding doesn't go into research, that's what research grants are for | 18:23 |
| @kanzure | brownies: you can get more economic development if everyone is allowed to build inventions freely | 18:23 |
| @kanzure | http://www.bu.edu/otd/files/2011/02/The-Enactment-of-Bayh-Dole.pdf | 18:23 |
| @kanzure | "The problem, very simply, is the present policy | 18:25 |
| @kanzure | followed by most government agencies of retaining | 18:25 |
| @kanzure | patent rights to inventions." | 18:25 |
| @kanzure | that doesn't even make sense | 18:25 |
| @kanzure | copyrights owned by the government are in the public domain, but patents aren't? | 18:25 |
| @kanzure | so before bayh-dole, stuff wasn't being used at all? | 18:25 |
| @kanzure | who the hell decided that | 18:25 |
| brownies | i'm not really sure what point you guys are making, tbh | 18:25 |
| @fenn | that universities should make the results of their research freely available | 18:26 |
| @fenn | it's not complicated | 18:26 |
| juri_ | i'm just kindof ranting. i guess i'm in a bad mood today, having been sick. | 18:26 |
| juri_ | i think its time for more coffee. | 18:26 |
| @fenn | i'm confused as to the original intent of the bayh-dole act | 18:27 |
| @kanzure | In my opinion, government contractors—including | 18:27 |
| @kanzure | small businesses and universities— should not be | 18:27 |
| @kanzure | given title to inventions developed at government | 18:27 |
| @kanzure | expense. That is the gist of my testimony. These | 18:27 |
| @kanzure | inventions are paid for by the public and therefore | 18:27 |
| @kanzure | should be available for any citizen to use or not as he | 18:27 |
| @kanzure | sees fit. | 18:27 |
| @kanzure | fenn: it seems to be because companies were unable to "license" technology from universities. or it was possibly something about "economic stimulus". | 18:27 |
| brownies | so basically, in your opinion, the creator of a technology should not be able to benefit from it, just because some government money was used to fund some of the work that went into it? | 18:28 |
| nmz787 | dumbo octopus==pikachu | 18:28 |
| @fenn | all images produced by nasa are uncopyrightable, they're in the public domain; why don't we have a similar provision for federally funded research? i just dont get the whole licensing thing | 18:28 |
| brownies | you're conflating research vs. patents, i think | 18:28 |
| @fenn | brownies: if having an artificial monopoly over it is what you mean by "benefiting" then yes, i agree, that should not happen | 18:30 |
| @kanzure | wait what... the one senator against bayh-dole gave up in the name of courtesy? what the fuck. | 18:30 |
| @fenn | patents, copyrights, access to data | 18:30 |
| @kanzure | brownies: they can benefit from it. you can do that without patents. | 18:30 |
| nmz787 | so do ppl generally like bayh-dole in here or what? | 18:31 |
| @fenn | it seems to have "solved" a problem by making a worse problem | 18:31 |
| brownies | here's the core of the issue | 18:32 |
| brownies | do you think the spirit of the patent system is valid? | 18:32 |
| @kanzure | nmz787: no we hate bayh-dole in here | 18:32 |
| @kanzure | where is jojack's bayh-dole rant.. damn. | 18:32 |
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| @kanzure | wtf the only file talking about bayh-dole from transcripts i've typed is http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/open-science-summit-2011/victoria-stodden-transparency-in-scientific-discovery.txt | 18:34 |
| brownies | and spirit aside, i don't even see the implementation problem with tech transfer ... are there thousands of innovators champing at the bit to commercialize the latest research from a university? | 18:35 |
| brownies | what's the real opportunity cost of economics development? | 18:35 |
| @fenn | "economics development"? | 18:36 |
| brownies | that's teh phrase kanzure used above. | 18:36 |
| @fenn | what you said doesn't make sense | 18:36 |
| @kanzure | 18:23 <@kanzure> brownies: you can get more economic development if everyone is allowed to build inventions freely | 18:36 |
| @fenn | it's like asking "what's the opportunity cost of money" | 18:37 |
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| @fenn | brownies: the implementation problem is that researcher A isn't able to use the results from researcher B because his system has been patented by the university researcher B works at | 18:38 |
| brownies | and my question is, how often does this happen? | 18:39 |
| brownies | what is the real opportunity cost, measured in lost economic development? | 18:39 |
| @fenn | how the hell should i know | 18:39 |
| brownies | exactly. | 18:39 |
| brownies | so why assume that it's a big thing ? | 18:39 |
| @fenn | it's practically impossible to estimate, like asking what's the opportunity cost of freedom of speech vs censorship | 18:40 |
| brownies | no, because if this were a problem, someone would have said something by now | 18:40 |
| @fenn | people are saying things, that's why there's the fucking bayh-dole act in the first place | 18:41 |
| brownies | and we could go out and count the number of researchers complaining about this | 18:41 |
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| brownies | the bayh-dole act appears to have implemented tech transfer, which is what you're railing against | 18:41 |
| @fenn | sort of | 18:42 |
| @kanzure | actually, someone did do an estimate and talked about it at open science summit 2012 | 18:43 |
| @kanzure | unfortunately i couldn't divine the url to his project while he was giving the talk, and then i forgot what he looked like so i couldn't ask him for a url. | 18:43 |
| @fenn | the intro to the act, in the words of evan bayh: "The problem, very simply, is the present policy | 18:44 |
| @fenn | followed by most government agencies of retaining | 18:44 |
| @fenn | patent rights to inventions. | 18:44 |
| @kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/open-science-summit-2011/stephan-kinsella-ip-and-new-mercantilism.txt | 18:44 |
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| @kanzure | hmm. | 18:45 |
| @fenn | he then goes on to say how private industry needs patent exclusivity in order to further develop government funded research into a commercial product | 18:46 |
| @fenn | but the problem was never that people didn't have control of their own patents, it was that the government wasn't licensing the patents to them | 18:47 |
| @fenn | what i'm saying is that nobody should have patents on government funded research at all in the first place | 18:47 |
| @fenn | i wonder if i'm even making sense | 18:48 |
| @kanzure | fenn: i wonder if "BUT patents are necessary to make anything happen because companies don't have an incentive otherwise" was an argument pre-bayh-dole. | 18:48 |
| @fenn | yes that's the argument | 18:48 |
| @fenn | er, that's the intro to the bill | 18:49 |
| @kanzure | no the intro to the bill seems to be "we're not doing anything with these patents, so why not give them to companies" | 18:49 |
| @fenn | "unless private industry has protection ... they cannot afford the risk of commercialization" | 18:49 |
| @kanzure | oh. | 18:49 |
| @fenn | which is plainly bullshit | 18:50 |
| @fenn | there are no patents on the mass of the earth or other results of basic research | 18:50 |
| brownies | you can't patent the mass of the earth | 18:50 |
| @fenn | but private industry uses these results all the time in commercialization of products based on that data | 18:50 |
| brownies | this would be a lot simpler if we all stopped saying dumb things | 18:50 |
| @kanzure | brownies: but you can patent a gene | 18:50 |
| @fenn | why can't you patent the mass of the earth? | 18:50 |
| brownies | this goes back to the original question: do you think the *spirit* of the patent system is valid? | 18:51 |
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| brownies | should there be protection in place for the first inventor? | 18:51 |
| @fenn | "method of determining mass of celesial objects and data derived therefrom" | 18:51 |
| brownies | kanzure: yeah, patenting genes is fucked up too | 18:51 |
| brownies | you can't patent data. it's not "invented" | 18:51 |
| @kanzure | if you want protection then you would use a trade secret | 18:51 |
| brownies | the patent system was meant to be an improvement over trade secrets, by letting people share their results with the world while still having first mover advantage | 18:52 |
| @kanzure | brownies: the patent system disagrees with you. many things are patented that are data, including schematics. | 18:52 |
| brownies | schematics are not data | 18:52 |
| @kanzure | brownies: no, that's not what the patent system was. | 18:52 |
| brownies | alright then. what WAS the original intent of the patent system? | 18:52 |
| @fenn | er, i would agree with brownies on this point | 18:52 |
| @kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/open-science-summit-2011/stephan-kinsella-ip-and-new-mercantilism.txt | 18:53 |
| @kanzure | "It had its peak in the late 1500s. It was the policy of the crown by granting industries certain monopolies. In England in the 1500, many goods were covered by patents like playing cards, books and wine and so on." | 18:53 |
| @kanzure | "Not because anyone invented it, but because the crown was granting favors for someone sometimes in exchange for agreeing to collect taxes for the state. It caused the monopolists and private companies to turn to the government to perform search and seizures and others going outside the monopoly. Did the other shops have the king's stamps?" | 18:53 |
| @fenn | but in america the idea was to prevent hoarding of secrets | 18:54 |
| @kanzure | "So Microsoft uses its money to acquire more patents and then uses that money to sue other companies and then to shake them down for royalty payments. It's called royalties for a reason!" | 18:54 |
| @kanzure | fenn: i'd be interested in seeing direct evidence of that. | 18:54 |
| @fenn | well, we can certainly speculate all we want about motives and intentions, but then there's what's written in the law and there's no guessing about the text of that | 18:55 |
| @fenn | "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries." | 18:56 |
| @kanzure | what does that have to do about hoarding secrets | 18:56 |
| brownies | oh ffs kanzure -_- i meant the modern patent system. | 18:57 |
| @fenn | damn i'm remembering something that i cant find | 18:57 |
| @kanzure | please know that i understand that the trade secret argument is often used in discussions on this topic, but the argument mostly goes "well, the patent system exists because otherwise trade secrets and nobody would do anything" rather than whatever you're trying to explain. | 18:57 |
| brownies | that argument, like many of the things said here lately, makes no sense | 18:58 |
| @kanzure | i believe the "trade secret excuse" is a post-facto rationalization and not the actual reason or explanation | 18:58 |
| brownies | probably because it's not even a real sentence | 18:58 |
| brownies | anyway, protection for IP creators is not some radical idea | 19:00 |
| @fenn | yeah, well, you're just a figment of my imagination, so nyah | 19:00 |
| brownies | there are lots of issues with implementation details of patents and copyrights, but that doesn't invalidate the actual goal | 19:00 |
| @kanzure | protection for IP creators *is* radical.. | 19:00 |
| @fenn | sorry kanzure i thought the constitution specifically laid out the rationale for the patent system, but i was wrong | 19:00 |
| @kanzure | fenn: thanks for admitting it, i'm just as confused as you are | 19:01 |
| @kanzure | on its surface, the patent system itself /looks/ like a convenient way to record technological developments | 19:01 |
| @kanzure | so i'm sure someone like ben franklin was ecstatic about the concept of having this shit written down somewhere | 19:01 |
| @kanzure | it's also possible that the patent system was established in the US to make money from inventions in the same way that the british empire was taxing companies in the colonies for similar patents (not sure what patent law was like at the time). | 19:03 |
| @kanzure | http://movingtofreedom.org/2006/08/31/ben-franklin-on-patents/ | 19:03 |
| @kanzure | hehe "An ironmonger in London however, assuming a good deal of my pamphlet, and working it up into his own, and making some small changes in the machine, which rather hurt its operation, got a patent for it there, and made, as I was told, a little fortune by it." | 19:03 |
| @kanzure | poor franklin | 19:03 |
| brownies | heh. ironmonger. | 19:03 |
| @fenn | the patent office was the closest thing they had to an open source revision control system in 1800 | 19:05 |
| @fenn | but people have learned how to game the flaws in the system | 19:06 |
| @kanzure | there was an article i was reading once about how patent systems tend to be ignored when a new country sprouts up, to give a temporary advantage, or to restart a patent registry, so as to prefer local business as opposed to foreign business. but i'm not sure how that works with WIPO and the world patent agreements these days.. | 19:07 |
| @fenn | i'm really at odds with the "obviousness" criteria | 19:07 |
| @fenn | just because i didn't patent something first doesn't mean that i didn't think of it myself | 19:08 |
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| @fenn | kanzure: "new countries" don't just sprout up these days | 19:08 |
| @fenn | though i hear antigua is considering violating WIPO treaties in retaliation to US censorship of their internet lines used for gambling, or something like that | 19:09 |
| @fenn | brownies: it's hard for us to imagine an investing system where there's no such thing as patents or copyrights, but that doesn't mean it couldn't exist | 19:13 |
| @fenn | often trotted out is "why would anyone invest in you if you can't even get a patent on your invention?" | 19:13 |
| @fenn | but if nobody had patents, it just wouldn't be an issue. they'd invest in you because they think you're a good business partner, you know your shit, the invention is marketable, all the same criteria they use today | 19:14 |
| @kanzure | i think a troll in the 1800s complaining about version control systems would be a hilarious comedy sketch | 19:16 |
| @kanzure | "Ye of little faith, where are the latest documents describing the method of picking cotton?" ... actually that's still a valid question. nevermind. | 19:16 |
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| @kanzure | jojack got back to me about the guy who was doing simulations of "with and without patents" | 19:19 |
| @kanzure | "Andrew Torrance, Kentucky U school of law prof spoke in 2011. He is now at MIT for this year with Eric Von Hippel, who is the guru on User Innovation." | 19:19 |
| @kanzure | http://archive.mises.org/18812/andrew-torrance-patents-and-the-regress-of-useful-arts/ | 19:19 |
| @kanzure | "Torrance’s simulation indicates that a society with no patent law would have more innovation than one with patent law. What is interesting is Torrance said that when he began this project he fully expected the simulation to show the opposite: to vindicate the legitimacy of patent law." | 19:20 |
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| @kanzure | i wonder if it would be possible to (safely) light my hands on fire while typing | 19:22 |
| @fenn | er, and do his control simulations match current reality? | 19:23 |
| @kanzure | paperbot: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1411328 | 19:24 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Patents%20and%20the%20Regress%20of%20Useful%20Arts.pdf | 19:24 |
| @fenn | woah hyman rickover was arguing against the bayh-dole act | 19:25 |
| @kanzure | who is this? | 19:26 |
| @fenn | created the US navy nuclear power program | 19:26 |
| @fenn | "these inventions are paid for by the public and therefore should be available for any citizen to use or not as he sees fit." i wonder if he had won, would i have a nuclear power plant in the garage | 19:27 |
| @kanzure | my guess is no, because you would not own a garage in that reality either. | 19:28 |
| @fenn | how about an aircraft carrier | 19:29 |
| @fenn | it's paid for by the public! | 19:29 |
| yashgaroth | I don't think you could fit a carrier into a garage | 19:29 |
| ThomasEgi | hm.. wasn't there a nuclear reactor in a swimming pool once? | 19:30 |
| @fenn | ThomasEgi: that was a story by charles stross | 19:31 |
| @fenn | rickover was unpopular because he would call bullshit on contractor's excessively high bids | 19:32 |
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| brownies | kanzure: you can do so briefly by dipping in your hands a solution of methanol and water and then lighting them on fire | 19:42 |
| brownies | just don't blame me if you, uh, burn anything | 19:42 |
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| brownies | fenn: patents are generally not held as a prerequisite for investment | 19:42 |
| jrayhawk | it's recommended that you shave first | 19:42 |
| @fenn | before investment, or setting yourself on fire, or both | 19:44 |
| @fenn | "invest in me, i'm on fire!" | 19:45 |
| @kanzure | brownies: has anyone studied whether or not facial hair increases the chances of closing a successful round? | 19:45 |
| @fenn | this is sort of like scientific studies of the stock market | 19:47 |
| @fenn | as soon as anyone determines a winning strategy, it becomes irrelevant | 19:47 |
| @kanzure | brownies: to be fair, patents are often cited as a requirement for attracting investors, especially in biotech companies. naturally, an investor could theoretically invest without a patent in the company, but i haven't heard of this happening. | 19:47 |
| klafka | wow | 19:48 |
| klafka | you guys are _still_ talking about patents | 19:48 |
| brownies | i'm not sure about "especially" | 19:48 |
| @kanzure | klafka: yes it is possible to do multiple things at once on the interwebs -_- | 19:49 |
| klafka | hah | 19:49 |
| brownies | the cost of a patent means it's right out for all but a few industries | 19:49 |
| klafka | fair enough | 19:49 |
| brownies | of which, yes, biotech is one | 19:49 |
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| brownies | * before raising a round, i mean | 19:49 |
| brownies | once you have 10M to play with, it's a different story | 19:49 |
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| @kanzure | have i mentioned how much i hate academic programmers? | 20:07 |
| @kanzure | http://rudylab.wustl.edu/research/cell/methodology/cellmodels/LRd/code.htm | 20:07 |
| @kanzure | i think the <font color="red"> is a nice touch | 20:07 |
| Guest15014 | grelbarjsrol = 0; | 20:07 |
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| @kanzure | https://github.com/OpenSourceBrain/PospischilEtAl2008 | 20:25 |
| @kanzure | seems to have lots of models https://github.com/OpenSourceBrain | 20:25 |
| @kanzure | https://github.com/OpenSourceBrain/Thalamocortical "GitHub repository for an OSB project containing a thalamocortical network model based on Traub et al. 2005" | 20:26 |
| @kanzure | gah.. | 20:26 |
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| @kanzure | https://github.com/OpenSourceBrain/Thalamocortical/blob/master/neuroConstruct/pythonScripts/L6NonTuftRS_FI.py | 20:26 |
| @kanzure | https://github.com/OpenSourceBrain/Thalamocortical/blob/master/neuroConstruct/pythonScripts/GenNetworkParallel.py | 20:26 |
| @kanzure | gah i don't think these guys understand how to write python | 20:26 |
| @kanzure | last two lines are "sleep(5)" and "exit()" :( | 20:27 |
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| @kanzure | webkit/chrome exploit http://scarybeastsecurity.blogspot.se/2013/02/exploiting-64-bit-linux-like-boss.html | 20:35 |
| @kanzure | "It's normal for VCs in Series A to bill you for their legal expenses.".. really? | 20:40 |
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| cpopell | kanzure: Know anyone who's done work with Dmitri Itskov? | 20:46 |
| cpopell | (Russian Billionaire, funds the Russia 2045 project) | 20:47 |
| @kanzure | i know people who hate dmitri itskov | 20:47 |
| @kanzure | does that count? | 20:47 |
| cpopell | who? | 20:47 |
| @kanzure | pretty much everyone in the russian transhumant movement inc. hate the 2045 person (it's just a media guy hyping things up and stepping on our friends) | 20:48 |
| @kanzure | i'd start with danila medvedev | 20:48 |
| @fenn | guh. "more than a quarter of the licences issued by universities and research institutes include clauses allowing the business partner in the arrangement to delete information from research papers. Almost half allow them to insist on publication being delayed. | 20:48 |
| @kanzure | Медведев | 20:48 |
| klafka_ | Q_Q | 20:48 |
| @kanzure | fenn: source? | 20:48 |
| @fenn | http://www.economist.com/node/5327661?story_id=5327661&no_na_tran=1 | 20:49 |
| @kanzure | cpopell: Медведев Данила | 20:49 |
| cpopell | Okay | 20:49 |
| @kanzure | cpopell: you should get to know him, he's worth talking to at least once or twice | 20:49 |
| @kanzure | he's a little impractical in his projects | 20:49 |
| cpopell | I wish I understood the russian h+ movement better. I know of the 2045 guys, who are meh (itskov), I know of Monolith who are fucked up (Frolov) | 20:50 |
| cpopell | I don't know of what their mainstream is | 20:50 |
| @kanzure | rtm is where the action happens | 20:50 |
| @kanzure | the russians have always been far better organized than humanityplus | 20:50 |
| @fenn | is there such a thing as "mainstream transhumanism"? | 20:50 |
| cpopell | is Monolith disliked? | 20:50 |
| cpopell | by the rest of the Russians? | 20:50 |
| @kanzure | not sure | 20:50 |
| cpopell | with their white supremacy/leninist/postmodernist agenda/trolling (it's not really clear, and I don't read russian anymore) | 20:51 |
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| @fenn | how can you be transhumanist and postmodernist? isn't that a contradiction? | 20:52 |
| @kanzure | philosoban | 20:52 |
| @kanzure | .. meh nevermind i don't care right now. | 20:53 |
| @fenn | sorry | 20:53 |
| yashgaroth | when a man is tired of banning, he is tired of life | 20:53 |
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| @kanzure | tread carefully he who would poke this dragon | 20:54 |
| jrayhawk | transhumanists transcend the human condition, postmodernists transcend moderning meaning/values; how would they be contradictory? | 20:57 |
| jrayhawk | they seem largely orthogonal | 20:57 |
| yashgaroth | yeah I don't see them as mutually exclusive | 20:57 |
| @fenn | nevermind, it's a matter of definitions that nobody can agree on | 20:58 |
| jrayhawk | The sort of value shifts forced by implications of SL2 through 4 thinking probably seem fairly postmodern to SL0 folks regardless. | 21:01 |
| klafka_ | hmm | 21:02 |
| klafka_ | have you guys seen OSError: [Errno 12] Cannot allocate memory in python before? | 21:02 |
| klafka_ | I'm wondering if there are any issues with the multiprocessing module on very large memory systems? | 21:02 |
| jrayhawk | Modern operating systems should let you overcommit into swap, so you'd be noticing terrible performance problems and triggering the kernel OOM killer before hitting a hard wall; perhaps you're running 32-bit python? | 21:03 |
| @fenn | jrayhawk: i can't even put myself in the frame of mind of someone who doesn't believe in virtual reality or living to 100 is possible | 21:04 |
| @fenn | apparently this is "most people, journalists, politicians" | 21:04 |
| @fenn | didn't people have video games in 1999? | 21:05 |
| klafka_ | hmm jrayhawk i don't think so | 21:05 |
| klafka_ | because i'm creating processes that are like 8gigs or so and they aren't erroring out then | 21:05 |
| klafka_ | they error out when the map is supposed to return | 21:06 |
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| cpopell | fenn: Correct. | 21:06 |
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| jrayhawk | file $(readlink -f $(which python)) to verify | 21:06 |
| cpopell | In fact, I know a number of people who are aware it's possible | 21:07 |
| cpopell | but say 'I think I'll be done at 80' | 21:07 |
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| klafka_ | ok cool | 21:09 |
| klafka_ | ./usr/bin/python2.7: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.15, stripped | 21:09 |
| jrayhawk | hmm. mystifying. | 21:10 |
| klafka_ | i think i did just run out of memory | 21:10 |
| klafka_ | it's so far working with 22 processes instead of 32 | 21:10 |
| klafka_ | i just didn't think i'd run out of memory with 288gb | 21:10 |
| @fenn | you ran out of swap? | 21:10 |
| @kanzure | klafka_: have you considered gevent or eventlet instead of multiprocessing | 21:10 |
| jrayhawk | cat /proc/swaps might be of interest, too | 21:10 |
| klafka_ | no kanzure not familiar | 21:10 |
| cpopell | yashgaroth --flying out a week from Tuesday | 21:11 |
| yashgaroth | hell yeah | 21:11 |
| @kanzure | klafka_: 8 GB coroutines sounds extremely ridiculous | 21:11 |
| klafka_ | just big dataset processing kanzure | 21:11 |
| klafka_ | i can make it more efficient but i was like 'i have 288gb ram' | 21:11 |
| klafka_ | 'fuck it' | 21:11 |
| jrayhawk | an excellent attitude | 21:11 |
| klafka_ | like this it's an 80 LOC script | 21:11 |
| cpopell | you know where I live right yash? | 21:12 |
| klafka_ | and i'm only running it like once or twice | 21:12 |
| cpopell | Vista | 21:12 |
| @kanzure | is this still your sql klafka? | 21:12 |
| klafka_ | kanzure: haha this is me processing the results of that | 21:12 |
| @kanzure | have you considered learning about hadoop | 21:12 |
| klafka_ | yes | 21:13 |
| klafka_ | so this disco vid i watched was really interesting about how m/r systems are generally way less efficient htan batch processing | 21:13 |
| klafka_ | until you scale to the hundreds of systems | 21:13 |
| klafka_ | btw kanzure - going to pydata? | 21:14 |
| klafka_ | anyone going to pydata? | 21:14 |
| @kanzure | an ok summary of openworm/david dalrymple/brain emulation stuff: http://www.jefftk.com/news/2011-11-02 | 21:15 |
| @kanzure | klafka_: no, i didn't even go to pycon. i should consider showing up to one of these, shouldn't i. | 21:15 |
| klafka_ | well pydata is part of pycon 2013 | 21:16 |
| klafka_ | hmmm i think i see the problem i'm not closing the multiprocess pool | 21:17 |
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| @kanzure | Tabrenus: hello | 21:19 |
| Tabrenus | hi | 21:20 |
| @kanzure | what brings you yonder | 21:20 |
| Tabrenus | nothing in particular, just favorited the channel | 21:20 |
| yashgaroth | cpopell: I have a vague idea of where that is | 21:20 |
| cpopell | just gmaps vista, california | 21:21 |
| yashgaroth | yep, it's closer than I thought | 21:21 |
| cpopell | ooh, you want to drive up with me to LA friday the 15th? | 21:21 |
| yashgaroth | let me check schedules, also what for | 21:22 |
| cpopell | I was going to go see finfer and barone | 21:22 |
| cpopell | and catch a ride with my dad. But I figured you always love networking anyway | 21:22 |
| yashgaroth | oh, I adore it | 21:22 |
| yashgaroth | who's barone, another musician? | 21:22 |
| cpopell | nah, he's a former colleague | 21:22 |
| cpopell | programmer, works at Daqri, which is an AR startup | 21:23 |
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| cpopell | err, not colleague. I knew him at RPI | 21:23 |
| cpopell | he's tied into the burner community | 21:23 |
| yashgaroth | ok well let's take this to PMs for the channel's sake | 21:23 |
| cpopell | k | 21:23 |
| @kanzure | what's wrong with burning man | 21:25 |
| cpopell | nothing? | 21:25 |
| cpopell | just trying to give an idea of personality | 21:25 |
| @kanzure | why does that necessitate pms | 21:25 |
| yashgaroth | we're making travel arrangements | 21:26 |
| brownies | so many polygons! http://site.daqri.com/ | 21:26 |
| cpopell | kanz: making travel plans | 21:26 |
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| @kanzure | brownies: protomold just showed up in wired, dunno if you're still curious about retooling costs http://www.wired.com/design/2013/01/protomold/ | 22:14 |
| brownies | 1B market cap? impressive. | 22:16 |
| brownies | pretty cool that they've added stainless steel and medical resin | 22:16 |
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| @kanzure | oh maybe i should read things i link, didn't notice the $1B market cap. | 22:30 |
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| nmz787 | hey protomold looks cool | 22:34 |
| @kanzure | epfl person interested in starting a diybio group - Anna Cyganowski <anna.cyganowski@gmail.com> | 22:34 |
| nmz787 | where? | 22:35 |
| @kanzure | epfl | 22:35 |
| @kanzure | it's in switzerland | 22:35 |
| @kanzure | hehe: | 22:36 |
| @kanzure | 2010-06-04.log:06:57 < kanzure> fenn: what was your opinion on http://www.protomold.com/ ? | 22:36 |
| @kanzure | 2010-06-04.log:06:59 < fenn> why, what's special about protomold? | 22:36 |
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| nmz787 | kanzure: i was looking for somewhere to injection mold openSpectrometer housings | 22:43 |
| @kanzure | ah i wasn't aware | 22:43 |
| @kanzure | emachineshop also does injection molding i think, but i dunno if their prices are better than protomold's | 22:43 |
| nmz787 | i wonder if protomold charges to keep the tool stored at their place | 22:43 |
| @fenn | so what, they're a quick turn around prototyping service. nothing that hasn't been done for 150 years already | 22:49 |
| nmz787 | so what what? | 22:50 |
| @kanzure | wasn't the appeal that they were cheaper? | 22:50 |
| nmz787 | i havent heard of any others | 22:50 |
| @kanzure | mfg.com probably has others | 22:50 |
| nmz787 | the last place i called did injection molded optics | 22:50 |
| nmz787 | starting at like $15k per tool and design | 22:50 |
| @kanzure | yuck mfg.com has changed. they used to list the actual suppliers. | 22:51 |
| @fenn | hehe "A buyer in China viewed the profile of an MFG.com member located in 北京 (Beijing), China" | 22:52 |
| @kanzure | mfg.com always seemed a little weird. they want me to register, login, then upload a project, then wait for bids? | 22:52 |
| @kanzure | why not just give me a generic price for something with one surface and nothing weird? | 22:52 |
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| @kanzure | if lance armstrong gets to do doping, then why not me in typing competitions | 23:18 |
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| jrayhawk | i think you might test positive for amphetamines | 23:20 |
| @kanzure | that's not doping | 23:21 |
| jrayhawk | testing positive for amphetamines is worse | 23:21 |
| @kanzure | you are a terrible judge, who put you in charge | 23:22 |
| @kanzure | ... do you accept bribes? | 23:22 |
| jrayhawk | bribes of eyefinity cards | 23:23 |
| jrayhawk | and JBODs | 23:23 |
| @kanzure | did you see http://christmasexperiments.com/23/ ? | 23:29 |
| jrayhawk | "Sorry! This demo requires WebGL and Web Audio support. Please use Google Chrome to view it." | 23:32 |
| @kanzure | i thought firefox finally implemented the audio api? | 23:32 |
| @kanzure | besides i thought you were using chromium | 23:32 |
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| jrayhawk | I use an HTML browser. | 23:34 |
| nmz787 | dont all browsers support HTML | 23:34 |
| jrayhawk | Usually browsers support *more* than HTML. | 23:34 |
| jrayhawk | This, in my reckoning, is a mistake. | 23:34 |
| jrayhawk | to be fair, everything since gopher was a mistake, but i am willing to compromise | 23:38 |
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| nmz787 | so what's the point of christmasexperiments | 23:43 |
| nmz787 | what's it showcasing? | 23:44 |
| @kanzure | webgl demoscene things | 23:44 |
| nmz787 | so it's all html5 or what? | 23:45 |
| @kanzure | yes, javascript/html5 stuff | 23:45 |
| jrayhawk | WebGL is something even crazier than html5 | 23:45 |
| @kanzure | http://christmasexperiments.com/23/js/ | 23:45 |
| nmz787 | pretty smooth | 23:45 |
| nmz787 | i was looking at clientside cropping and resizing using canvas elemtne | 23:46 |
| nmz787 | elements | 23:46 |
| nmz787 | but ttyl | 23:46 |
| nmz787 | sleepytime | 23:46 |
| jrayhawk | it's like you're using postscript in the eighties! | 23:46 |
| jrayhawk | or X11! also in the eighties! | 23:46 |
| @kanzure | i wonder if adobe pdf supports webgl because of its support for javascript/html | 23:47 |
| @kanzure | prolly not. even if you get an ie frame in there somehow, it's unlikely to work. | 23:47 |
| jrayhawk | everything old is new again when your standards body is run by lunatics! | 23:47 |
| --- Log closed Mon Feb 04 00:00:39 2013 | ||
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